We welcome to Breakfast in Hell.

This week, I'm joined by Alan Johnson.

Alan's a software engineer in New Jersey who grew up in a wealthy suburb of Chicago, Illinois, going to a Southern Baptist church.

Alan's grandparents left the South during the Great Migration, a movement of people of color from the South that began in the nineteen twenties due to economic opportunities and more importantly, to escape the legal violence allowed through Jim Crow and segregation.

This movement changes the socio political landscape of the United States, as well as generations to come of African Americans who now have a better opportunity not previously afforded to their respective families.

You'll see throughout this interview that Alan wrestles with his faith from an intellectual point of view.

He almost completely takes emotion out of his understanding of the inconsistencies around many of the things he was taught in his evangelical upbringing.

He brings up his dive into the history of some foundational principles of modern evangelicalism, things like how the Bible was put together and the idea of an errancy.

It's so very clear that Alan simultaneously holds no ill will towards his upbringing, while also has weighed it rationally and found it wanting.

Alan, his wife, and his kids still seek out religious community, particularly in their attendance at a local Unitarian Universalist church, where the emphasis on love and acceptance makes more sense than the rigidity of his childhood.

Alan is an intellectual with a passion for these conversations.

I could have talked to him all afternoon.

Hope you enjoyed the combo.

Here's Alan Alan, Thanks so much for joining me this week.

You reached out your friend of Jax who's been on the show.

Yeah, it's nice to get to know you a little bit, but I'm excited to get you, know, to know you a little bit more.

Tell me a little bit about where you're from and your childhood and maybe where faith started to intersect in your life.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I live in New Jersey with my family, Me, my wife and our four kids.

So we've got full house.

A daughter who's our oldest, who's about to eight, got our second daughter who's six, and then we got twins, a girl and a boy who were four, So you.

Got four under eight and twins as the last two.

Yeah.

Yeah, so when the twins were born, we had four kids under four.

God, Alan, you just I'm gonna send you a check like in the mail.

I listen, I have twin boys that are nine and cool.

I don't give as a rule, I don't give parenting advice to anyone.

I just think it's in poor taste and I think people are on their journey.

The one exception is when I see an exasperated or overwhelmed parent out in the world with twins under four, because I firmly believe now you have a little bit of help with your older two.

I firmly believe that once like once my boys were completely potty trained, so not like potty trained, like I don't have to pack an extra outfit in the car, right.

Yeah, yeah, it came easier to have twins.

But yeah, for sure, before that moment, it was it was a lot.

It was a lot.

And I just tell if I see a parent out, I just go, hey, you're in the weeds right now, but it's totally worth it.

Two more on.

Top of that, Yeah, it feels a bit like we're kind of out of the you know.

It was like a long period of pregnancies and babies and uh, you know, and it feels like, as of maybe like a year ago, you know, we kind of transition to having for you know, kind of proper kids, which is you know, in some ways, you know, more complicated, but you know, it's it's less physically intense.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I think just the the hours with twins that are can't take care of themselves is just man, it's it's it's one it's a one of a kind of experience that's so worth it.

But four under four, I just am like, that's a horror movie.

I don't even think that's that's tough.

So God bless you.

That's that's incredible.

All right.

So before then, where were you?

Where are you from?

New Jersey?

No?

No, So I grew up in the Chicago suburbs.

Okay, it was a Midwesterner all the way through college and then I've been East Coaster ever since.

So.

I grew up in Lyele, Illinois, which is right next to Naperville.

If you're familiar with Naperville.

Okay, is Loola like the basketball school that went to the NCAA tournament and Sister Jean and all that stuff.

Is that where you're talking about.

Yeah, so Loyola is in the city.

Well that's one Loyal, and my wife went to another Loyal that's in Baltimore.

There's four Loyals in this country.

But yeah, one of them is in the city of Chicago.

Where I live is out in the suburbs.

So Neahperville is kind of a it's like an edge city.

So it's one hundred and fifty thousand people.

It's right next to Royal, Illinois, which is another one hundred and fifty thousand people, Okay, and like collectively it's its own I would describe it as its own like urban area that's part of the suburbs, but you know, it has its own center of gravity.

So yeah, it's big enough.

One hundred and fifty thousand, that's big enough for you.

Yeah, and I guess as a touch point in like the you know, sort of the Christian world where Wheaton College is is just fourth of us, so it's kind of, uh you know, so it sort of fits in uh that way.

But uh yeah, so Lyle, you know, is the town technically from but I went to Naperville Public schools in Illinois.

The districts don't line up with the cities, so it's kind of weird, but uh, you know, so practically speaking, I'm from Naperville, uh and uh, and that's where I grew up for my entire life.

It is, so Nahberville is an interesting place.

The way I describe it is it's you know, in the nineties when I was growing up there, it was perennially ranked as like the best place to raise a child in the country.

It was one of the fastest growing cities in the country, all that stuff.

So it has this like very idyllic suburban vibe, uh, you know, and just kind of some for granted growing up.

One of the things that's unique about it it's not the wealthiest place in Illinois, but the places that are wealthier tend to be these towns of like three thousand people.

Neighborvill was one hundred and fifty thousand people.

That's almost uniformly kind of like middle upper middle class.

So something about the the scale.

Of affluence in Naperville that is that is like fairly unique.

And it was an interesting experience growing up there.

As you know, so my family, both sides of my family were from the South originally, so my mom's parents they grew up in you know, the area outside of Atlanta.

My dad's parents grew up in Mississippi and like Roal, Mississippi deep And in both cases, my grandparents fled the segregated South.

To come north and like the Great Migration.

Wow.

Dad's family settled in Detroit.

My mom's family settled in Gary, uh and Gary, Indiana kind of outside of Chicago.

And you know, in both cases had the experience of growing up in those towns when they were prosperous.

You know, I think a lot of people don't realize like that.

You know, Detroit was the wealthiest city in the United States until like you know, yeah, probably like the sixties or something, and then and Gary was really prosperous because of steel, so they had you know, at the time they grew up there, those those cities weren't kind of how people think about them now.

But they both grew up you know, not with not with a lot you know.

My one grandpa, my.

Dad's dad, he worked for for Chrysler.

My mom's dad drove Chicago Transit Authority bus in the city, you know.

And then my parents both went to college and you know, they met at University of Michigan and then they moved out to the Chicago area after you know, they got married and.

You know, and so it's kind.

Of I think one of the things that's interesting thing is, you know, generationally, my family all have very different upbringings.

Yeah, my grandparents and segregation in the South, my parents in like the urban north, and then me and my siblings in the you know, in kind of the suburbs of Chicago.

You know, where we grew up.

There were not a lot.

Of black people.

You know, it's probably like three percent of the population.

So there was this like culture shock of most of my peers being either like white folks that were from the you know that whose parents are probably you know, I think it was I mean a lot of people, to be fair, came from working class and moved up to like the kind of upper middle class neighborville, but still just a different upbringing and different kind of culture than my family.

So we always, I always felt very apart.

You know.

It was really only in my generation that.

The black folks could even live in the suburbs, you know, after redlining and all that stuff.

Yeah, and you even talked about going to a school in a different place than you grew up because of how the lines were drawn, and a lot of that is you know, that dates back to a lot of jerrymandering, not just redlining, but jerrymandering of districts, and like Saint Louis was really big where all the white people moved out to the county and there's a different there's Saint Louis County and there's Saint Louis City County, and Baltimore did that.

But to the point of your grandparents and the Great Migration, you talked about your grandparents living a very different life than your parents, and your parents live a very different life than you.

From teaching this, not from experiencing it.

People that were a part of the Great Migration, the biggest movement of people of color out of the South and to the rest of our country.

That was their dream.

Yeah, yeah, that was the dream was my grandkids will live of maybe not around all white people, hopefully not all around around the white people.

But the dream was my grandparents, my grandkids aren't gonna have this struggle in the way that I've had, this struggle of I'm fleeing from my life because I'm I'm not treated I'm not my personhood isn't recognized here, and yeah, for sure, it's you know, it's a fascinating, fascinating turn of events over just two generations.

And you see, you can see how system matters in that, at least from an outside perspective.

But growing up around so when you went to high school, in the Naperville High School, you were very had to be very tokenized, under three percent at that point.

You said, so it's mostly all white people.

Yeah, yeah, and I would say mostly mostly you know, definitely majority white, and then with like a pretty significant East and South Asian population too, but yeah, but very few black folks, very few Latino folks, you know, and so yeah, I mean, you know, the population basically reflects kind of like the you know, the upper cross of the corporate world.

And yeah, and so.

You know, definitely experienced, you know, the feeling of tokenization being the only black kid and most of my classes and you know, and you know, I guess what now people call microaggressions or in some cases just like straight up aggressions.

But macro and micro aggression.

Yeah, and it's kind of funny because, like you know, at the time, there was just no there's no blueprint for you know, and my life growing up was easier than my parents and my grandparents, but it was just different and there was nothing to really sort of you know, kind.

Of to teach you to navigate.

It was just you know, we're kind of like the first generation to kind of have that experience.

And yeah, two Part one is how did your parents, Like your parents are bridging a gap between grandparents who Man, that's a like, that's a story, Like that story is like a great story, a tough story.

Like you know, if you look at the riots in Chicago, I know they weren't in Chicago or Saint Louis.

Like the Great Migration was hard because even though the South was more actively racist, the whole country was systemically racist and so historically and so then you have your parents who worked hard and went to college and then moved you to a white suburban neighborhood.

So what was their parenting advice to you about going to school and being the only black kid in your class?

And then second of all, where does faith come into all of this?

So kind of a two point yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So you know, there's a lot of like the you know what they call now kind of respectability politics, like you got to be twice as good.

You know.

My parents were very protective like their parents, well at least my mom's parents were very protective of them growing up.

And so there was this like very you know, this culture class between like you know, my parents wanted to talk with the parents and whoever I was going to be hanging out with, like up through high school, you know, and you know whereas like my you know, my best friend like two doors down, like his parents are much more like free range kind of like post sixties baby boomer type thing, and you know, and there was a lot of uh, you know, I felt a lot of anks just of like just how you know, overbearing.

I felt my parents were, you know, because they they approached it with like what they you know, how they were raised to survive in the city.

Even though these cities were you know, we're not in the shape that they got to in the eighties and nineties and stuff, they were still they were still cities and you used to had to be street smart and savvy, you know, and so that was that was always really challenging.

And then in terms of faith.

Uh so my family was like very like very deeply you know, I don't want to use this word disparagingly, but like churchy, like we were like church people, like through and through.

So you know, we went to an all black Southern Baptist church in uh yeah, yeah, uh wow, yeah yeah.

And you know it was in the town.

It was about twenty minutes from from Miles.

So when I was born, we actually lived in another town called bowling Brook, and then we moved before I was like in kindergarten, and but we stayed in that church that my parents were.

I don't think they were they I think they might have joined when the church was like a year old, so they weren't quite in the founding group, but they were kind of practically speaking amongst you know, the folks that were before the church had a building and all that stuff, when it was meeting just at a random spot, you know, so they were they really were there for the whole lifespan of that of that church.

It was like a huge part of my childhood.

You know.

We went to went to Sunday school at like nine am, and then church started at like eleven, and you know, in my last two plus hours, you know, and then my dad was a trustee, so he'd have to count offering and deposit in the bank, you know.

So it was really like our entire Sunday a choir rehearsal and Wednesday prayer meeting.

So we spent a lot of time in that in that church for sure.

Oh, was that something that was passed down from your grandparents?

So like a like a generational like church people.

Yeah, one hundred percent.

So I know a little bit less about my my dad's families, uh, like kind of spirituality and religion.

Uh.

Whenever we would visit my mom's family and Gary, we'd go to New Revelation Baptist Church where you know, her parents went to and stuff.

Uh.

And whenever we go to Georgia to visit like the extended family, you know, we had family members that were you know, ministers down there and stuff for my dad's family.

So it's I'm a little less clear.

I guess as far as I know, he really might have, you know, started really kind of going to church regularly when he and my mom got together.

That may not be true.

I'm not about to ask him sometime, but.

What was the push?

What was the push as a kid spiritually?

Was it this is what we do?

Or was that there's some sort of back end, this is why we do it.

So was it more functional perfunctory, we go to church, doors are open, we go or was it this is something that we've been called to do, or is very specifically giving us some sort of leg up on everyone else?

Or what was that?

What did that look like for you growing up?

Yeah?

I mean I would say that it was like, I guess more of the latter.

Like you know, I think in my family, especially my mom's side, is like just like a deeply held sense of spirituality and that you know, God has blessed our family with you know, to survive all the things and kind of achieved success.

My mom's family was really remarkable.

Her oldest sister is a doctor.

Her two next brothers went to both went to Harvard, Harvard Law, Harvard Business, and you know, she went to h Spelman and University of Michigan for grad school.

And my and her younger brother, you know, you went you went to college as well, went to Hampton and then or maybe Howard actually, and then a successful career in pharmaceutical, uh kind of sales and stuff.

So they really crushed it.

As you know, a black family out of Gary.

You know, and I think I think that my whole mom's family attributes a lot of that to you know, like faith in God and being really faithful and you know, trying to always you know, essentially go above and beyond as Christians, not to show up on Sundays.

But you know, I mean, one of the things that you know, sort of has always made me nervous about talking to publicly about my own journey is just how important it is to my parents, you know, their Christian faith.

And I honestly believe that I think their number one aspiration for me and my siblings, that we you know, grew up to be good Christians, you know, and everything else like is secondary, because I think they truly believe the you know, the idea that your relationship with God is supposed to be number one, and then your family and then you know kind of you know or you know other people, and you know, I wouldn't say it's it's it's selfish in the sense of the JD.

Vance kind of perspective, but like, you know that, yeah, basically, a relationship with God is like the most important thing in the world, and so that that's the perspective I was really raised in and really, you know, I would say internalized.

You know, one thing I would say is maybe a bit different from you know, you know kind of how I've heard you describe growing up in the South and stuff is like that wasn't the you know, in in Naperville.

It was not you know, you go to church by default kind of culture.

Uh, you know, And so we were a little we were a little different, a little you know, a little weird.

I guess you could say.

And uh, you know, you know.

People were really I would say a lot of people were religious, but people are very private about their religion.

Yeah, and you know, there's a big diversity of religious perspectives, and so.

Am I would assume outside of Chicago, right.

Yeah, Yeah, it was in our area specifically, So our side of Lyle like was Catholic land.

There is a Catholic university, a Catholic high school, there's a Catholic church two blocks away from my house.

Uh.

And so that was definitely in our sub area of the region, the dominant thing.

And then you know, and then obviously Wheaten there are a lot of people, you know, there's a lot of evangelical movement, but more like the white evangelical movement.

Uh, there's a pretty big Mormon population.

Uh.

You know, with East and South Asian, there's you know, Hindu, sick Muslim uh.

You know, so it was a big mix.

And I would say that both in our church and in our in my house growing up, it was a sense of you know, we're we're on an island surrounded by like the world, and uh, you know, and we have to be different and we have to you know, sort of set an example and try and bring people.

To Christ or our idea of Christ.

And and and so it was this much more you know, I know, kind of embattled in a way, you know, type in battled.

And I you know, one of my big takeaways from my childhood is the emphasis on spiritual warfare and culture warfare.

So like, yeah, that didn't line up with my the dogma that I was taught as a kid.

It was about war.

It was like put on the armor of God, get ready for a fight.

Get ready, which is the antithesis of how Jesus lived his entire life and how it's in the Bible.

Was that it sounds like your church emphasized the positive outcome.

Like a lot of growing up in my house was like not in my house.

My parents actually were pretty gracious and not really like the rest of the world and Christian school in church, but my church in my school is very much the you're dark, you're sinful, you're awful, rapture.

Hell, it sounds like and if I'm miss speaking, let me know, it sounds like the emphasis for you and your church and your specific journey with your parents was look at these blessings, look at the like you, these blessings are happening.

The good of our careers and our success is happening because we're going to church and we're checking, we're doing this thing.

Is that actually?

So we had both of it, for sure, you know.

So that's the you know, that's kind of like the light side of it.

But yeah, we had all of the other stuff too, the rapture and like the you know, the sense that you know, I don't know, you'd be punish you know, I guess in your temporal life or you know, in the afterlife or whatever.

Right, So there was a lot of the like kind of the gilt and the pressure and all of the other stuff too, for sure.

So where do you start to like doubt some of this?

Yeah, so I would say, you know, so all through my childhood, because it wasn't monocultural, you know, there was always kind of alternative perspectives, you know, and so you know, I knew other people seem to have a less sort of intense kind of relationship with Christianity or whatever than we did, you know, and that was appealing.

Yeah, yeah, definitely every week.

Yeah, you know, but I would say that growing up, I don't recall, you know, so I guess that some of the things growing up that didn't sit well with me were, you know, some of the the sense that you know, I don't the rejection of like evolution or whatever.

In my head as you know, even as a teenager, I'm like, well, why can't evolution be the method by which God created humans or whatever?

You know, like, you know, why does it have to be like kind of an either or so.

I mean, I think that's some of the things that made me always set me apart from you know, I guess how I felt we were like taught at church.

You know, I think there were also some also had some issues with just the you know, some of the concept of like the afterlife as we were taught at you know, the he you know, we were taught it was supposed to be this like paradise type experience.

I always had issue, you know, for one thing, there was like, uh, I don't know, It's like what if your spouse dies and you get remarried and you know you have you know, loving second marriage.

You know, how does this get reconciled?

If everyone's Christian?

Right, like in the after life?

How does everyone get what they want?

Look at me in heaven?

I guess you know, I never I've had a lot of questions.

Alan, I've never thought about that, and it's a great one.

Yeah, I would saying, you know, just the concept of eternity.

It kind of scared the hell out of me.

You know, it's like, you know, what do you you know, what do you do in like the third millennium of being?

You know, in heaven and you've kind of done everything and everything turns out well because there's no struggle or like whatever, Like you know, are you just like listless?

And you know, how do you exactly?

There is that like the flip side of eternal damnation and darkness is a timeless, endless paradise, you know what I mean?

Like I use an example all the time and get made fun of around here.

But it's like if you highlight the whole page, you don't highlight anything, right, So like you know, both of those things have their own detriment in a weird way.

Yeah, when do these how do you as a high school kid who's going through this or middle school I was, I'm just guessing as a teenager, how did you compartmental?

How did you go?

I got issues here, but I'm still going to charge every Sunday.

I'm still doing this thing.

I'm gonna put them on the back burner.

Or did you start asking parents or faith leaders or did you just kind of say I'm just gonna deal with this right now.

So I think I was raised in uh you know, you know, and it's sort of like you sort of accept what you're told, you know, don't talk back, you know, that kind of thing.

So just a lot of repression essentially, you know, I kept all this to myself, and you know, and and I think, you know, ultimately, I kind of I think with other things in my life that eventually led to a lot of you know, sort of anxiety and mental health issues and depression and stuff.

But yeah, so long story short, I just thought it was my own just struggle, you know, or I don't know, maybe it was like Satan you know in my head like that, you know what I mean, And that's what we were as we were kind of taught and uh so I didn't really you know seriously question you know, say, like my kind of journey away from Christianity, uh, you know really kind of started in college, you know, when I can make my own choices about how I wanted to spend my time.

And you know, I probably attended one church service in my four years of college the Highway State by the way.

What's that?

That didn't take long?

Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, pretty quickly, I.

Was like, you know what you're you know, a ways away from home.

Yeah, you're just like Sunday morning, I think I'm out.

Yeah, pretty sure, And I probably very few Sunday mornings.

I was in like great shape to.

Fair.

So when did you start to verbalize, like when did you It's one thing to go I'm not going to church because I don't have to.

It's another thing to start unpacking some of the stuff that you've placed unhealthily in the recesses of your mind and go I don't know if I believe this anymore.

Yeah, So I would say I was still very firmly kind of personally Christian, like Throughedge, you know, but I remember some of the some of the things that were real kind of breakpoints for me.

Uh you know, I used.

To well, I would say, I used to.

I still sort of you know, uh go on these Wikipedia binges.

So I'll just go down the rabbit hole and click from linked link, you know, and just cover topics exhaustively.

And one of the things I remember, really, really vividly is.

Stumbling upon the documentary hypothesis of you know, the origin of the of the Bible, and I remembized I was reading it, like you know, the I had this feeling of like, oh man, I'm opening Pandora's box like once you you know, once you like, I would say, one of the things is very you know, it was always hammered into us in the church I grew up in, is you know, the inerrancy of the scripture and the literalism and all this other stuff, and you know, and once I encountered the you know they you know, the ideas behind the Bible, you know, how it may have historically been assembled from different sources and with the you know, the sort of the politics that led to the you know, the Old Testament is you know, it kind of eventually became codified.

Yeah, and you know, and it made a lot of sense to me, and you know, and it was kind of almost like seeing behind the curtain.

Uh.

And I remember feeling, you know, I kind of you know, I felt like it was almost like biting the apple.

You know.

I was like, oh, this is dangerous.

And I think I kind of didn't come back to that for a while, you know, but Erry, it's Yeah.

The documentary hypothesis is basically the Pentitude came from four different authors.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oh, I will say this, I firmly believe.

I mean to cut you off, but I do want to, like, we don't get to a lot of people that I have on the show are still scared to talk about in Errancy.

And I firmly believe for American Christians Inerrancy is the ultimate top you know, the top and inception that's spinning.

Yeah, yeah, makes it.

I believe it is the ultimate firewall for most Christians that are doubting their faith because they're scared to talk about it.

And if you start reading about it and you start going on these rabbit trails, you're going to find not hypotheses or theories, you're going to find some empirical evidence that's going to make you have to say, I just accept this eventually.

And you know, one of those A big moment in my life was reading a book called Misquoting Jesus by Bartierman, where you know, some of that stuff is like, he gets very academic, and if you're interested in an errancy, I'd highly recommend it.

But he starts off early in this book and he goes, we don't have a copy of the New Testament.

We don't have a copy of a copy.

Well, I mean we don't have the original.

We don't have a copy.

We have a copy of a copy, and that copy has and then all of our manuscripts since that copy has more errors than it does words, and and then he says, there is not a single textual criticist who will disagree with this.

This is objective.

This is not my opinion.

This is objective.

And if I stopped listening to the book and just started googling.

Yeah, and he's right, I mean's pretty wild.

It's like you know, I think it's it's it's a particular thing in like the Protestant world, you know, because my wife she comes from like a Catholic.

Background, yea an animal.

Yeah, the Catholics recognize that.

Like Jerome, he found all these different things and he had to reconcile, you know, and that's how we got the New Testament.

And you know, it's much more honest of going.

The priest gets to interpret that God's been given the power and you just have to have faith that they've chosen the cannon correctly.

It's much more honest in there and how they've gotten there, even if it's still a little wishy watching.

Yeah, yeah for sure.

Yeah, and it's got its own thing too, and it's you know, but uh yeah for sure.

And that was a big thing for me.

But you know, as I said, I didn't really at the time pull on that that yarn too much.

But I would say the other thing kind of concurrently, like this was the bush Ears, and there was a lot about what was going on then that really put me off, just the you know, just the like the you know, the the performative piety and all that stuff, which was you know, to be there was one of the things that you know, I guess it's one of the contradictions in my church.

Like in my church, there was this like our pastor especially had this, you know, this disdain for pomp and circumstance, and you know, he was much more like a fundamentalist kind of perspective, like how do you strip away all the things that have been sort of accumulated in tradition, you know, you know that said, we have plenty of tradition and all that other stuff.

So it wasn't you know, it wasn't like a uh you know.

And then I think there was a give and take between him and the uh in the congregation that came from Southern Baptist backgrounds or Pentecostal backgrounds and things like that, and so you know, but I was always I think it was something that stuck with me that you're not supposed to you know, you're not supposed to you know, you're supposed to pray in the closet or whatever.

You know.

The you know, I don't we didn't take that literally some people do, but uh, you know, but that idea that you know, you're not supposed to be, you know, using it as like a way to like glorify yourself or whatever, right, and.

Yeah, all of this is hitting such a like I grew I was in college in the Bushyars too, not all eight of them, but but the first half of those through of I graduated O five from college.

I think we're probably pretty close to the same.

Yeah, I graduated oh six.

Yeah, And I remember him having an Attorney General John something who like wanted to wrap the one of the Lady Liberty and an American flag and like wanted to have all of this and then the prayer breakfast and we just you know, a tradition.

But even now, like I heard a video.

I saw a video of George W.

Bush eight years ago, nine years ago talking about the danger of nationalism, and I'm like, man, we've we've come so far in the wrong direction.

But you see like these senators like kneeling to pray on the Senate floor about passing a bill that literally removes groceries from people and help here from people.

And it's like, do you don't want to know what taking the Lord's name in vain is about?

That?

Yeah?

One hundred percent.

Yeah, I mean, god damn it, it's that that's the thing.

Yep, you know, and so I like everything in me just like you start talking about that, and I just I try to be calm and like breathe through it.

But those kind of things, Man, I'm so with you.

I wanted to with you on that.

So that brings me to probably like the biggest pivot for me, which is sort of ironically.

I think it was in twenty eleven I decided, you know what I you know, at this point, I hadn't been going.

To church regularly.

I think there was a period when I lived in Baltimore and I was in teach for America, and I was going to a church and I guess maybe I'll just take a little kind of diversion.

That talked about that a little bit.

Because you know, it was kind of my last period of really trying hard to you know, find my way back to Christianity.

So it was this church that I thinks still exists called Gallery Church.

And interestingly, it was founded by a bunch of recent grads from Liberty University.

And and yeah, I had.

This perspective of Liberty is like, you know, you know, probably what most people understand it as today, you know, but these guys were like they were very you know, they were kind of almost like you know, more unlike the progressive Christianity type thing they you know, I think the earliest services they had were like, you know, basically just meetings in bars, like you know, they were really all about like the go to the people and all that other stuff.

And that was really inspirational to me.

But when I moved from from Baltimore to New York City, I've kind of just ran out a scene on trying to find that and you know, and I think, you know, after two years, and after about a year of living in New York City, I moved there in twenty ten.

In twenty eleven, I was like, I really want to make a I got to decide what I want to believe or how I want to you know, do I want to go back to Christianity or whatever.

And so I had this idea, like I.

Want to try and read the Bible and you know, disconnected from all the things, all the you know, the sort of the denominational stuff that gets layered on it and try and read it as though I was reading it for the first time.

And I didn't make it all the way through, but I made it probably about three quarters of the way.

Okay, you got through the theologies and all the tough stuff.

Well, yeah, and you know, fortunately the book that I was reading, it was organized with reading from the Old Testament or reading from the New Testament and reading from like the you know, I guess.

The Wisdom Books or whatever.

So you get through the Gospels in like the early Old Testament, you know, pretty early, and and kind of ironically that was one of the it was definitely one of the things that really sort of like, you know, in a lot of ways, sort of like kind of crack the the whold of Christianity on me.

You know, there's a lot of things that really stood out to me from that experience.

Like, first of all, a lot.

Of stuff in the Old Testament it's just really difficult to reconcile with like my own just sense of justice and morality.

You know, there's a lot of gyside, there's a lot of just really dark stuff.

And yeah, you know, and I.

Would take notes and I would try to try to come up with ways that you could rationalize this in a way that isn't you know, you know that that sort of comports with like a system of justice, you know, I mean, in a lot of ways.

This is I think what a lot of a lot of Jewish folks have done over the centuries.

You know, there's a lot more of this.

How do you make sense of this of this document?

And you know, and uh, you know, so I really tried to read that Lens and that was really challenging.

But also in the Gospels, like it really hit me over the head just how much of Jesus' ministry was about this like sort of radical acceptance of the people who didn't have much power and you know, just really really biting criticism of the powerful and the pious and all this stuff, and and it just I've really kind of broke me.

I'm just like all of this is lost, Like does nobody read this, you know, like it was it was.

Nuts saying that table's over in the temple.

That was not a one off, like that's the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.

And you know, and I think it's one of the things that really sort of it I think I don't know if I would have put it this way in twenty eleven, but over time I kind of came to the conclusion that if you know, I don't know, you know, at the same time, you kind of had the Catholic sex of you scandals, you had all of the you know, the embrace of Donald Trump by the evangelical movement, the scandals at Liberty University.

You just see like just scandal and corruption everywhere.

And it really at some point, I I really couldn't reconcile a belief that there was a Christian God who took an active role in the world.

But the Christian Church, you know, has been just deeply corrupt for you know, sixteen years at the very least, since you know, since Constantine basically the state, you know, and you know, and so there's been a lot of a lot of time to get this right, and it just keeps going wrong.

And at some point, you know, I like I think there's this like it's almost like two pillars.

It's like you either believe, you know, the belief in the Christian God and then the you know, the belief that the Church is like a force for you know, for good and serving God, and you know, and at some point I came to the conclusion that there's there's nothing special about Christianity, uh, you know, in terms of you know, like having a monopoly on the truth.

Not all religions are like that, but Christianity, I don't think you can kind of escape the idea that, you know, that Christianity asked you to believe that the Christian God is special and that there's something unique about being a Christian.

Uh and you know, at some point, you know, you know, and then you start to think about it.

It's like people of all cultures and perspectives and religions have authentic or at least internally authentic religious experiences or experience things that are miraculous or or whatever.

And it just became impossible for me to see that there's anything that is different about Christianity, you know, and that.

I think as I.

You know, as that perspective just got reinforced with just my experience over the years.

You know, at some point, you know, i'd say probably it's been like ten years or so that I have you know, at least internally stopped identifying as as a Christian, you know, and uh, you know, I it's not you know, because of you know, the sort of the family and stuff like that.

Like I don't still.

See your hesitancy to say that sentence, do you know what I mean?

Like just to say, it's been ten years since I identified as a Christian.

It's hard to say because of how you were raised and you love your parents and you love the people in your community, right yeah.

Yeah, one hundred percent, and you know, and I think it went from you know, and when I was younger, I thought that saying that would have divine consequences, you know, and it's been a long time since I've thought that.

But now it's more the it's more the cultural thing that you know that creates that that they're reluctance and just you know, I I want to you know, it's not just how my parents feel about you know.

Me or whatever.

But uh but.

You know, I respect that a lot of people have like very andcerely held perspectives and you know, and it's like I never want to like disrespect that.

But you know, what have the last ten years looked like with your parents when you see them and hang out with them.

Are they still together?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah.

So they moved from from the Chicago suburbs to the suburbs of Charlotte, So they've been there from about the past ten years or so.

Right up the road for me.

Yeah, oh yeah, cool, cool, Yeah, And they you know, and they're still very you know, active in the church they found in the Charlotte area, you know, and over the years they've always been like, have you found a church yet?

You know, all this other stuff, and you know, I mean, you know, I think part of how in just the way I was raised, not just the Christian part, but also the part of just like you know, you know, just the the culture of like you know, your your parents are right, and you know, you got to listen to them.

You know, we don't have like deep discussions about you know, religion and stuff like that, you know, and so uh, you know, it's like, you know, I.

Think they've accepted that that me, you know that I have.

You know, I think they know I don't go to church up here, at least Christian church.

And constant desire.

There's a constant active We're not talking about this though, between the two of you, Like it's not like they're asking and you're just deferring.

There's a constant like we're not going to really dive into this.

Yeah, but they'll ask, you know, and they'll you know, and they want my kids to grow up Christian, you know, so they'll buy things that are Christian and books and stuff.

Like that, and with those parents.

Yeah, so it's you know, and you know, and I think for my kids, it's like I just really want you know, I don't well that was my Christian That's fine, But.

What do you do?

Like, how have you felt?

Because ten years is longer than eight.

So you made this decision to not call yourself a Christian two years before the birth of your first daughter, and how does how does that feel for you?

You now?

But how does that?

How do you parents?

Because eight years old that's prime existential question time.

How do you parent?

And then how do you respond when your parents start shipping down the picture Bible or the the this is a cartoon with with the story of David and Goliath or whatever they do.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, three parter.

But do you see what I'm saying.

Yeah, so they're not you know, I mean because they live in North Carolina and you know, and and also I think they you know, they they kind of pick their their spots.

They're not like it's not that difficult, you know, but you know, if my kids, I think, you know, it's something my wife and I talked about, you know, you know, before we had kids and stuff like that, how do we want to how do we want to raise them?

You know, and uh like for a while we just you know, it was just like not that that pressing to us.

You know, it's like just you know, not go to churches or like whatever.

You know.

One of the things is kind of interest saying.

You know, we were talking about like the Catholic perspective on the Bible and stuff.

I remember there was once I don't know if this was before we had kids or or not, but when we were talking about it and uh, and I.

Was like, well, here's what I think we do.

I think we read the Bible and decide what we believe in what church kind of aligns with that if any you know, And my wife goes, why would you do that?

What do you mean it's.

Like the document that you know that finds Christianity.

And she's like, I don't think that, you know, in Catholics and Catholicism, I don't.

Think we really see it that way.

So I looked into it and I was like, sure enough, it's like, you know, was much more about you know, the Apostolic succession and this idea that kind of authority.

That goes through the priesthood.

Who you know in the Bible is important, but it's not meant to be this foundational document for the laity to grapple with or whatever you know.

And I got to be honest, I the thing that I may have come not full circle.

The biggest one eighty for me, aside from my entire belief system from when I was eighteen nineteen twenty, is is that I think, in the regard of how the Bible is treated by Christians, the Catholics get it way more right than the Evangelicals.

And I don't have a dog in that fight.

But for me, there's a lot of danger in the pope and the priesthood and the app that whole thing having the entire ability to tell you what the Bible says.

But I think that pales in comparison to any single human.

Look in the Southern Baptist Church.

Do you know what it takes to become a reverend.

It takes a bunch of other men laying hands on you, praying before you all go out to eat at the buffet.

That's all it takes.

That's it.

You don't go to college, you don't have to get a degree, and then all of a sudden after those hands are laid on you, you can then tell all of your parishioners what the wor inerrant Word of God says and how to best apply it to your life, which to me is part of the problem that you've articulated this whole episode like that is the Catholics can easily get it wrong, but you're starting wrong on the other side of it, in my opinion, and that is super dangerous.

And I think for someone like you and like me who grew up evangelical, to even think about the Bible in that way is very difficult, right.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, So you know, we didn't do that exercise because it was like, wouldn't have meant and then yeah, for a long time we just you know, we didn't really think that much about it.

And you know, beginning of last year, the you know, my.

Buddy who I grew up with, tudors down, his mom died of brain cancer and I went to her memorial service that was at Unitary Universalist church back in my town that I grew up in, and I was always like somewhat familiar with Unitarian Universalism because she attended that congregation from you know, from when we were kids, you know.

And as I'm looking around at the you know, I listened to the songs that were singing and looking around the materials, I'm like, this is much more in alignment of you know, how I feel, you know.

And something that I felt was missing in our lives was like, you know, we live in this town called the Touching in New Jersey.

We're literally surrounded by another town called Edison and and and it has this like bubble kind of mindset.

It's very idyllic.

It's a wonderful place, but there's you know, I think there's a danger too, and just you know that your whole world will be you this little town of fifteen thousand people and you know, where there's not a lot that goes wrong or whatever.

And I always kind of felt like we were missing, you know, sort of engagement with like the broader world, you know.

And that's something that I appreciated about.

The church that I went to drew people from, you know, from other parts of the Chicago suburbs and stuff like that, and you know, and you had some exposure to things outside the Naperville bubble, and you know, and so when I came back, I found a couple of unitary Universalist congregations near here.

I went to a couple of services.

Uh you know, uh, you know, it's like, yeah, this is much more in line with how I feel than you know, my uh, my wife and kids uh started attending to and you know, and we we've missed I don't know, probably a couple of months in a row.

But it don't matter in unitary and universalism.

Yeah, yeah.

About it.

You don't have to.

It's not you're not expected to go to yea.

You know, there's no growing congregation.

But that's why it's also so great for your mental health.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.

You know, I would say the biggest issue we have is just you know, you know, as a family with four kids, we often bring the like the literal majority of children uh to service.

And that's that's challenging for a couple of reasons.

I think, like, you know, my wife is described as like, you know, she feels a lot of you know, very uh you know, like she's parenting in a fish bowl, you know, because you know, our kids are very you know, they're generally very you know, good mannered and stuff with their kids, right, and you know, and that's always you know, it's always the mother who's sort of expected to you know, s are socially expected or whatever, or even even if it's not like explicit other people's expectations, like the internalized expectations, uh, you know of like if I'm a mom and my kids crying, am I doing something?

You're people perceiving that I'm doing something.

In churches, there's a judgment, there's an inherent judgment of how moms are momming.

Yeah.

Yeah, And so that's you know, probably our biggest challenge with the congregations that we've attended, you know, just that it's there's it's not they just don't provide like the the scene of young people of peers for the kids we're all kind of you know, learning to how do you think about purpose and meaning and justice and all these things that they like ideally you want like you know, I grew up.

It's like we had grade level classes because we had enough kids for that, and they're just that that doesn't exist at the U congregations that are near us.

Do you feel like you need to go like is it something you're like we feel like or maybe not giving our kids the full spectrum of whatever religion or culture.

If you don't go, like, is it a big deal if you go we're universalists, but we don't go to church anywhere?

Would that like?

Or is is the I guess what I'm asking is is the is the is the striving to go and find a good place because you feel like you need to Or is it because of the positive community stuff that you want for your kids?

It's because of the positive community.

It's not like, you know, I think we've felt very satisfied with like not attending church, you know, on a personal level, for you know, for my wife and I.

You know, it's more the uh you know, the experience we kind of were hoping for for for our kids, uh, you know.

And and I'd say some one of the things we're still kind of working through is like, you know, given that it's not what you know, it's not the you know, it's not loads of children for them to know and kind of learn with or whatever.

Maybe there are other advantages, Like, you know, there's is something about growing up in like a multipe generational community, you know, and you know, in kids getting to know some of the people who are you know, they're not their age peers.

But you know, there's a lot to learn from from adults of different backgrounds and and uh, you know somebody you know, maybe that's something that's really valuable.

Uh.

You know there's also like you know, we were talking with the uh like the interim Minister h who was the minister you know for most of the time that we were attending, you know, and they were talking about how it's just like a, yeah, it's definitely true.

That's really hard to get a critical mass of children because you don't have to go right like and people have other things that are going on, traveling sports or like whatever, and you know, and so it tends to be one family will show up, they'll see there's no other families, then they'll kind of stop showing up.

So you kind of have to hit this like critical mass.

Uh.

And uh, you know one of the things we're trying to you know, we're both involved in a bunch of stuff and we like, you know, do we know it's probably something that if we were so motivated, you know, it's like we could try to help with and try to you know, there are a lot of I think we're not alone in you know, being sort of post Christian you know, amongst our social world and stuff.

And you know, if we wanted to, we could try to see if we could round up folks who are.

Interested in checking it out.

But we just like not that motivated.

But here's the thing.

No, no, you laughed, But cults.

One of the defining characteristics of a cult is high control.

Right.

Well, I'm not here to tell you that evangelical churches are unequivocally a cult.

I'm not here to tell you they're not either.

What I'm here to tell you is is that you very rarely see in big evangelical churches a volunteer problem because people will go will priority because they are programmed through high control to believe that this is should be a priority.

Like you said, a relationship with God more important than relationship with my kids.

Like that is the depth that is high control.

So when you say, when you break the chains of high control and you go universalism is we're all here.

We should love others, and we should speak up for justice, regardless of what that looks like, and we should accept all And there's not one funnel to one way truth or life.

But it's it's a landscape of experience.

Your breath.

You're you're changing the paradigm of control, and so your feeling is a natural one, natural feeling to go.

I love getting together with people that also love getting together with people that are like me.

But at the end of the day, like sometimes it's like I got four kids at home.

The relinquishing of control is great, but it does make that difficult, and I think universals should probably be say they're fine with that, right, yeah.

Yeah, one hundred percent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The inter minister was like, yeah, and it's like if you want to, you know, if you want to take a break or come back or whatever, it's like, all these things are totally fine.

But you know, the other piece of it that I think you related to, the kind of high control piece.

I think that it's it's I feel awkward even mentioning to our friends like oh yeah, we're checking this place out or whatever.

Because it's like it sounds a little culty, you know.

And it is really the flip of what you grew up with it well't yeh.

But even just the idea of attending any church to a lot of people in our generation who are you know, post Christian or whatever.

You know, it's just like it raises the alarm bells, you know.

And if you're an evangelical, it is wild to go.

I would challenge anybody who's an ex evangelical, if what it posts Christian, to go in and just go to a service at a unitary, universe wild.

The symbols, all the different symbols that they have up or at least in the times that I've visited those churches, and like you see that it shouldn't and then the songs they choose to sing, like everything about it is the antithesis of how you grew up right, right, but your hackles are raised, you know what I mean?

Yeah, because it is you know, fundamentally, it came out of Christian traditions, you know, out of unitarianism and universalism, and they only kind of explicitly became post Christian in like the fifties or whatever.

But you know, the whole idea is, how do you, you know, can you replicate a lot of the experience of Christian service but without the you know, the dogma or like whatever, right until you know, for I think for a lot of people for whom that's like painful, you know, like it's like you're like.

Yeah, no, I'm good, you know, and that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

You said that the Universalist Church matches your belief system the most.

I know that it's fluid and it's changing, and we don't want to box anybody in.

But what would that belief system currently be about a higher power, about how you should live your life, about what's important?

Like, how would you describe your current belief system in just an elevator pitch?

Yeah, I mean I would say I'm like an agnostic, you know, you know, probably like you know, I think it's impossible to you know, raised in a Christian culture and Christian background or whatever, you know, like probably that's like a Christian flavored agnosticism, you know.

I'm I wouldn't say I'm like an atheist in the sense of having a strong opinion that there is no God.

I you know, for reasons that I kind of talked about earlier.

I don't believe in like the sort of Christian perspective on God.

You know, I still I'm sympathetic to the you know, the concepts of like intelligent design and anything that sort of respects science and you know, and you know what we kind of learned.

I still would like to think that there's like, you know, we're not just like random fluctuations on a bubble or something like that.

You know, it's all just an illusion.

But the lived experience of being a human, you know, you feel wonder and all these other things, and if there's a god or pantheon or whatever, they're probably like sort of unknowable to humans.

But you know, and so that's kind of my perspective.

I definitely believe that morality and you know, justice can exist separate from you know, sort of Christian doctrine or doctor or whatever.

You know, I've come to recognize that.

I think that it is true at least in like the sort of you know, like European landscape or you know, kind of Mediterranean world that was like the Roman Empire.

Like, I've come to respect fact that Christianity did have a radical impact in like improving sort of the justice of society, at least in its early days, you know.

And I think I think I've kind of come from being like very you know, kind of angry about Christianity to recognizing that it's like it's not all like bad or whatever.

But you know, definitely when it comes to the you know, like the theology.

I you know, I think I permanently kind of post Christian.

From that perspective, I would like to think that there's like a you know that everything doesn't just blank out of existence like once I die or whatever, that there's some extent that your consciousness lives on.

But you know, I don't know, Like I.

Don't think anyone knows what that looks like.

I don't I don't believe anyone's got the answer there.

Redemption.

One of my favorite lines is hope is the hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things.

And I lean on a hope a lot more than I lean on an objective fact these days.

Uh.

I Also, I think I've quoted this before, but Pete, one of my favorite things on this subject that I think you're alluding to very are like you articulated it beautifully.

Where Pete Holmes is like, so when you die, you believe that there's nothing right.

It's if you think that, then you and you believe that the world came from nothing.

When you die, you will return to your creator.

And so he's like, it doesn't really matter.

He's a universalist.

It doesn't it.

Doesn't really matter whatever where you fall on that spectrum of what you hope or believe, like you're going to get it.

You're gonna when you die, you're gonna get it.

You're gonna get You're gonna return to the thing that created you.

You you like, it's inevitable if if something is out there that is bigger and and and creating it, then you'll return to that.

And if it isn't, you'll that if it was nothing and spontaneously life was created for nothing, you'll return to what created you.

And I that is a very fascinating concept at the very least, even if you don't believe it.

I think it's a fascinating idea.

Yeah, but you know, it's like I want specifically, like my consciousness and sense of self to continue.

Yeah.

Yeah, And you know, but I think that I think that that's probably just not in the cards, you know, and uh, you know, I mean I think my probably my biggest hope.

You know, it's kind of wild because I you know, I'm a software developer.

I've never lived in Silicon Valley, but you know, probably the set that I you know, uh, you know, in my professional role is like of that.

And you know, it's been interesting to me to see like the sort of simulation theory like yeah, pick up amongst techies, Like I feel I was kind of early to that before.

You know, I feel a little bit, you know, I I.

Don't relate to a lot of the Silicon Valley techno utopian kind of mindset, but there is something to the you know, I've I've been on that concept for a long time, probably since I was in like college or something like that.

And you know, the I related to like video games.

You know, it's like I grew up playing role playing games like Final Fantasy and stuff like that, and when you're playing the games, you have this like the sense that you're experiencing the world these characters are in, you know, and you know, on some level it's like, well.

What if that is sort of what our existence is?

That like, you know, there's a version of me that's like, you know, I'm like a character in a massively multi player online RPG or whatever orle of Warcraft, you know, and you know, so somewhere out there there's at least my you know, there's there's a higher being who's you know, who's it's got a who's limited to like the world that I'm in or whatever, but like maybe my existence or like my experience exists in like whoever's you know, controlling my character?

I love it.

I love it.

I uh the grass Tyson talk about the matrix of Lawrence Fishburn.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a great conversation.

If you ever get the chance, you should check it out.

What encouragement Alan?

Before I let you go?

What encouragement would you give people who kind of have lived a similar journey to you, you know, strong Christian upbringing, knowing that your family is still like that now entering a full decade of ex vangelical slash post Christian experience.

What encouragement would you give people who are really struggling with it?

I think I think what is worked for me is to is to try to work through the fear of asking the questions.

You know that that you know, that sense of Pandora's box when I first was reading about the documentary hypothesis, you know.

It took a lot of years to like sort of touch that stove.

Again, you know, And but I'm glad that I did, And I'm glad that you know, I feel like I have I've unpacked a lot of the I don't what you call it just like the frame that I was sort of kind of forced to to have to maintain despite all the cognitive dissonance and all that stuff, you know.

And I feel free of that dissonance, you know, for having stared into some of the hard questions, you know, being willing to say, you know, I don't know if there is a god or not, but I've got to be okay with the idea that there isn't and that we just zip out of existence, you know.

And I think working through that fear has been really rewarding in the end, and it's worth the It's worth the the process of facing all of the almost like the bosses that are set up for you that are you know, tell you you don't do that, don't ask that question, or whatever.

It wasn't as bad as I feared it would be confronting some of these questions or like grappling with them myself.

But it's been really rewarding.

And I feel like I, you know, can live like sort of a more authentic, truthful life.

And I feel good that, you know, that my kids are being raised in a way where they're not being told that a whole bunch of stuff is true or that they have to do things, or the fear of death or the rapture or like all this other stuff that that I had to deal with.

You know, maybe they'll come to religion when they're you know, when they're older or something in some form or another.

But I want them to be able to approach it from having a fully developed brain, you know, and and not because of you know, the pressure in stuff like that, and so that I think that's something that that gives me, you know, sort of encouragement.

I guess you could say that's a good word.

Alan, Thanks so much for spending time with me today.

What a great story and I really appreciate it.

Yeah, this was a lot of fun.

Thanks so much for having me on.

Absolutely I can't thank Allan enough for joining me this week.

I felt we're kindred spirits and how we approach faith.

While I don't know for sure, I think faith and hope in something greater than himself is an idea that Alan desperately wants.

He can't prove it, he can't understand it fully, but he wants it and pursues it.

Nonetheless, I can only imagine how tough that is for someone of his intellectual capacity, and it should be considering some of the things we do know from history without getting too deep or possibly too dry.

Alan's reference to Constantine is an important one.

After taking over Rome and converting Christianity to its national religion, Constantine hired scholars to write what would be over fifty copies of the Bible to be used in churches in Rome's new capital, the subtly named Constantinople.

It's in these copies that we get much of the basis for the historical translation of the Bible that's used today.

Unlike previous manuscript that contained parts of what we now know as the Bible, the Constantine bibles throughout the outliers and created an overwhelming number of copies of the Bible that were the same, and that in turn created a preponderance of misguided evidence used by Christians today to point to the authenticity of the Bible.

It's obviously more detailed and complicated than that, but suffice it to say that before Constantine there wasn't a single copy of the Bible as we know it today.

In fact, there is not a found original manuscript of the Bible, nor is there a found copy of the original manuscript on record.

What we do have are many partial manuscript copies that say many different things.

Constantine's actions helped centralize Christianity, helped uniform it.

Instead of a religion based on the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it became a much more cultural religion.

And it's those traits that unfortunately remind us the most of a modern American Christianity.

It can be a sob ring moment to realize that the best selling book of all time, the book that was placed as equal to the divine for you as a kid, is an error filled, man made collection of excerpts altered for political gain.

That past sentence is so touchy that me saying it probably angered some of you.

It's something that can literally shatter your faith.

And yet, for allan while, this unfortunate history that definitely played a huge part in his deconstruction, I believe it's led to something greater along his journey.

For someone that has become disillusioned by the stories he was told as a child, I got the sense that Alan was still steeped in hope.

See unlike a holy book, one that historically has been used for all kinds of dastardly evil, Hope is pure.

It's a desire for something greater.

It's a desire for something better, whether it be hope in your kids, your friends, yourself, or something you can't explain.

Hope doesn't require you to hate someone or draw distinct cultural boundaries.

Stephen King once wrote, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

It's this level of hope that transcends dogma, religious exclues, civity, and even an intellectual analysis of the failings of organized religion.

It allows the opportunity for something greater while still emphasizing that what you're doing right now matters.

Thanks for listening.

Breakfast in Hill's produced by Will Cown.

It's written and hosted by Daniel Thompson.

If you enjoy the pod, please do us a favor with a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Breakfast in Hell Pod.

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If you've got questions, comments, ord like to be on the show, dm us on Instagram or send us an email to Breakfast in Hellpod at gmail dot com.

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