Welcome to Breakfast and Hell.

This week, I'm joined by Kevin WHITSETDS.

Kevin's a musician in Nashville, Tennessee, but before then he grew up a pastor's kid in the Nazarene tradition.

While the Nazarene Church contains many of the same tent poles of belief of other evangelical denominations, there's definitely an emphasis on what you do here on earth for the Kingdom of God that matters.

This may not sound like a massive distinction to the uninitiated, but there are large swaths of evangelical Christians that believe once you're saved by God, it's somewhat of a life insurance policy to get you into Heaven.

Not so in the Nazarene tradition, as your entire sanctification or second grace as they call it, is dependent upon you continuing to be discipled by the church and doing God's work while still alive.

Because of this particular shade of evangelicalism, Kevin's deconstruction is twofold.

His relationship to the church as a pastor's kid, which, as noted by previous episodes of this podcast, come with its own specific trappings and identity crises, but also how is intellect and rationality butts up against his faith tradition.

Kevin goes to college, meets people from different walks of life, and even goes as far as trying on their belief systems while questioning his own.

Add to that, over a decade of experience in the professional music business, and Kevin is now in a place where figuring it out is the new normal, and that seems perfectly fine with him.

It's a place that I think represents a lot of millennials raised in the church, and Kevin articulates it beautifully.

I think you'll really enjoy our convote.

Here's Kevin Kevin.

It's so good to meet you, sir.

I've heard a lot about you, all positive, so no pressure.

Tell me a little bit about where you're from and your upbringing and we'll go from there.

Yeah.

Absolutely happy to be here.

I think this show is great and super excited to have a part in it.

So to start at the beginning, I am I'm a pastor's kid.

I know you've had a few of us.

On here before, and my dad is a retired Nazarene pastor.

I don't know how many people have are familiar with the Nazarene Church.

It kind of sounds like a cult to some people, the Church of the Nazarene or whatever, but it's it's really just an offshoot of the like Methodist Church.

So John Wesley is kind of the I don't know, theological figurehead in kind of the modern Protestant movements.

And and if we want to get into that, I can.

I kind of like that's where I was raised.

So I think, first of all, I was never quite like, uh, you know, taught quote unquote to be a Nazarene.

But this is the church environment I was raised in.

And so.

Was this were you in the South?

In the South, So yeah, we can, we can go.

I've I've lived a few different places.

I spent like my young childhood in northern California in the San Jose area, and then about fifth grade moved to Raleigh, North Carolina.

So that's Bible Belt, which that's an interesting like peace because I remember my dad saying, because you know, we moved to a bigger church, and it was going to be a bigger I guess a better I don't know setup for my dad's career as a pastor, which is also a yeah.

But I remember him saying a few years into this placement in North Carolina, even though it looked like a bigger and better church that was thriving from the outside, he was like, in California, the people that wanted to be there, like we're at church, really just wanted to be there.

And he's like, in Raleigh, church is what you do every Sunday, And so it's kind of you're looking at a larger congregation, but you're not actually understanding or like seeing the same level of engagement or authenticity.

Potentially, Yeah, you've got a lot of people that like I.

I was talking to my dad about this, legitimately, who's was fifty years Southern Baptist retired, and he and I have great conversations, and he's just my hero.

I love the guy even when we disagree.

But I was talking him about how I have come to realize that in Southern churches there's a solid twenty percent of people who are there who probably don't believe a word of what's going on, but they feel like their kids need the routine and structure and the scaffolding of something to believe in.

You know what, I mean, yeah, like they're not motivated to help people, they're not motivated to give They just this is a really good routine for them.

And I didn't realize that growing up, but I realize it now and looking back, twenty percent might be love.

But in the South, I do think there's a lot of people that just go to church because that's what you do.

Absolutely, yeah, that's I mean, that's I think.

And when you're trying to you know, the ultimate goal I think of a faith journey is like personal transformation of the heart or something like that.

Like when yeah, you're dealing with the people that might just be sitting there because that's what you do.

You're not ever gonna really know how you're like getting through to people, or you know, they're probably maybe the expectations of your congregation, who are essentially your investing public.

You know, these are the people that are like deciding whether or not to tie their ten percent so you can have a paycheck.

You know, there's that weird tangent of being a pastor.

It's like you don't know where these people stand or their priorities may be vastly different.

You know.

It's like my dad sounds similar to you, It's like I love my dad to death and I respect the hell out of him.

It's like he.

Raised me, you know, as as a dad first and as a pastor I guess second.

In my in our home same, No, he did not.

Actually, it made me feel weird growing up a little bit because some of my other friends had parents that would like lead them in devotionals, and like, my dad never did that at home, you know what I mean.

When he were home, he was like he would take me to the t ball games and the baseball games, and I was a big marching band kid.

He show up to my marching band stuff and he was just a dad.

It was awesome.

So I like I have he really did separate those those worlds and never really made me feel like I was being like a less than Christian or not reading my Bible enough or any of that stuff.

But all that to say, you grow up in a church, being there, you know, three four times a week, whatever, being taught, whatever is coming out of the Sunday school teacher's mouths and those youth leader's mouths and all that stuff, so you're kind of gathering all this stuff.

But there were things that I think looking back, that really like stuck with me be given the nature of like the Nazarene Church, so I was actually, you.

Know, before you dive into that, the Nazarene Church, if I'm not mistaken, is very big on the fact that you can lose your salvation.

Is that accurate?

Yeah, I've rededicated quite a bit.

Yeah, for those who don't who are listening, who are not familiar with Southern evangelical or evangelicalism in general, you know, there's a Presbyterians believe, once saved, always saved, So once God save you from from the pits of Hell, that's the end of the discussion.

And uh, Nazarenes and method is to a lesser extent, but Nazarenes very heavily emphasized this continual pursuit of securing your salvation, so you can't you can you can be saved from hell one day and then the next day you could be back back burning again.

Yeah, that I would.

I think that's correct.

I would not frame it that way in my experience.

What I think I wrestled with more was the idea of and this is I mean we're getting into my teenage years here, which is fine, Like the idea of sanctification.

Right, So the Nazarene Church being a holy movement, there was this like you know, I'm going to probably watch some of this theology, but this second work of grace, right, So you have salvation, then you have sanctification by the Holy Spirit.

And the idea in the Nazarene Church always came across something like, okay, well, once you get the Holy Spirit, then it makes you not want to sin any It's like, it makes you sinless in a way, like this is the So I think that it all stems from like Wesley's idea that.

You know, oh, we're just going to save the soul and that's that.

Let's walk away, you die, you go to heaven all as well he was like, no, there's more work to be done on earth.

I like the idea in case, you know, it's.

Like, well, I like the idea of wanting to fix your current infinity.

Like, I like the idea.

It's much better than the idea of we don't have to worry about this because what we're what we're waiting on is later this this world can just go straight to hell.

We don't care.

I like the idea because the method of this and John Wesley were behind a lot of the social justice movements of the eighteen hundreds.

Like that they were there was at least some push to go.

Now, whether that's because you felt like it saved your soul or not, I don't really care it.

There was a push to fight for those that couldn't fight for themselves.

And that is a tradition that you were.

You know, that is part of the Methodist and Nazarene church.

So that's good there.

And there were guardrails put on the early Nazarene church to you know, prohibit certain activities dancing, drinking, even going to movies, stuff like this that could compromise your know, your sanctification, holiness.

Mean, but I kind of ultimately salvation.

It's really hard to differentiate.

That in my mind.

It's like, yeah, once you slip in this, it's like, well, I'd like start over and like then get resaved and then re sanctified and then do it again.

Was it like scared?

You know, what was the you know, you're trying to like the scare these kids to the kind of thing like here the hell, Yeah, I had those moments, but I didn't live with a lot of existential fear.

I mean, there was always those conversations when I.

Started, you know, driving, It's like what if I what if I say a cussword right as I get in a car accident?

And like that's that, That's the last thing I have to face, you know, major at the pearly gates, you know what I mean?

And how did we all somehow get swindled into cusswords being a thing?

What I mean, I know that the history of that is racist, and I think a lot of people don't know that, but like growing up, man, and it seems like we had similar childhoods growing up that was way high on the list, way high on the damn shits and fucks were so high up on the list of of Like are you like that is that's a direct from the Bible sin.

Of all the sins that we talk about on this show that people were scared of, that's the weirdest one.

Right right, I think.

So I spent a lot of time worried about that.

I agree, I mean I would be you know, I have I have two children now, and obviously I don't want them using cuss words in school, but you know, when they're of an age of discernment.

It's like, I want them to be able to express themselves.

Yeah, it's like, if you're using this word in an offensive way or directed at somebody to hurt them, it's like it's probably not.

But if you're expressing an idea or a feeling, it's like, I don't care, you know.

And you can use any word to be a terrible word like true.

And this is the most extreme thing about me as a parent, Kevin, I'll just tell you right now, is I'm cool with my kids cussing, and people in the South don't know how to handle it.

I am.

I am like from the time my kids could and I don't like I'm not trying to model that for them regularly, but I am trying to model them that we're not going to give words power that they don't have.

Like I'm not doing this thing like you know what I mean, Like, I'm not doing this thing where this word is bad all the time.

Like and every time my kid would be like, they said, said the S word at school, and I'll be like, son, shit's not a cussword, you know.

It is a cussword calling people a bad name, you know what I mean?

Like, so like I am just one of these guys that's like, I'm gonna fight against the whole world on this.

I don't care.

Like my kid will be out on the playground and I'll hear them go what the hell?

And then I'll see other parents go wait for me to react to that, and I don't.

And it is because of I just but I you're one hundred percent right.

I think teaching folks the way to use words and why that's important is so much better than going these are words are right and these words are wrong.

Yeah, you just start you break the brain in half.

I mean, so you probably experienced this as a PK yourself, but they're If you're not careful with these good bad behavior dichotomies, then you just can create a rift in the person, especially someone that feels like they're having to, you know, represent the pastor's family or who like.

Did you feel that growing up?

Did you feel like a burden to do that at times?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah for sure.

I Mean there was definitely times where I feel like I had to put on a little bit to appease the greater congregation or something like that.

I didn't want to make a good parents.

Oh yeah, I was there.

I was very good at Yeah, so I was.

I was definitely not one of these rebellious pastors kids types, you know that thing like you tell your kids in school.

And I went to public school all middle school and high school.

So.

You tell you like, oh, you're a PK, you must be like one of the bad kids, like you're going to be dealing dealing weed or whatever.

It's like, No, I was very much a rule follower, saying good grades all that stuff.

But yeah, at definitely let loose a little bit more at school, like that's where I would cuss, you know, to be to fit in and be cool.

But then at church it's like I'm not, I'm not doing any of that stuff.

So I think the most unfortunate part when I look back at my story is there were times on like a Sunday morning where I did feel compelled to go to the altar and I didn't, yeah, because I didn't want the congregation wondering like, oh, what's wrong with the pks?

Exactly right?

Yeah, So there was And you know, so I think most of my you know, transformative, I don't know, experiences in my youth were definitely like at like a youth camp or a retreat or something.

It's where I was away from the congregation.

I kind of had to do it in private, which is unfortunate.

It's like that's kind of a bummer man like to say, like, Okay, God, I can't like deal with you right now, because what Miss Linda in the third row is going to say.

So there's there's an emotional there's such a heavy emphasis on the emotional experience it growing up in evangelical churches.

Like even churches that say that it's not emotional, there's a very like the highlight of you know, being in churches either being in the emotional experience, are witnessing others in the emotional experience, and so you were one hundred percent right as a pastor's kid.

There's a manipulation of that that is sometimes the counterintuitive to how everyone else experience is it?

But I remember, I remember processing, and I want to know how old you were when you first went down front.

I think I was five years old, and I remember at five going when I do this, I remember at five, Kevin, when.

I do when I do this, that's young.

Everybody's gonna go nuts.

Everybody's gonna go nuts.

They're gonna there's gonna be tears and smiles.

It's gonna be a big deal when I do this.

And and I remember that at five years old, and that's not good.

Yeah, yeah, that's not healthy.

I don't think that's healthy.

Uh what was your like, when's the first time you went down front?

I mean I definitely remember the first time.

I would like, you know, maybe pray this in prayer, dedicated my life whatever.

I was probably like seven or eight.

Yeah, and I did that in like in like the privacy of our home with my parents.

Yes, But I think that moment, like the public moment, was when I was like baptized at like eleven or twelve something like that.

I was a very I was a young preteen, young teen whatever.

I was baptized at five.

That's that's I mean.

I think then, did you ever have that moment when you like got older and you're like, Okay, now I maybe understand what this is a little bit more and you wanted to be baptized again or something.

I did definitely have a moment in high school where I was like this is now real.

Like I'm I was so bought in.

I was like this is now real.

But I I I didn't even want my brain to think about asking to be baptized again, because then I felt like it just revoked the past ten years of my.

Life, like I yes, exactly think exactly that.

I was like, I can't say that out loud, I can't even entertain the thought of it or else snowball And then I know my brain and I know how I work.

I would snowball too.

Is it even real to begin with?

Yeah?

I mean, are there any adults in the room, like is this like yeah?

Like yeah, I felt the same way.

I was, like you get to that, you get that point where it's real and you're just like, okay, so do I just yeah, do I do it again?

And then yeah, negate everything else.

I was like faking it the first time, and that's right now.

I mean you know, I'm.

Thirty eight, so it's like now it's like, well, this is like the work of the heart is continuous anyway, so like we should just encourage that kind of thing.

It's like sometimes in my later life I was I've like, did the Catholics have something right?

Like this idea that like you show up and confess yeah to a human being and like you're continually working out your shit, Like did the Catholics have something right here?

You know, like we never're not only.

Working out your shit, but you're not responsible for the spiritual direct spiritual application.

Like that to me is the thing that I'm like, I felt such a burden to be in the Word and reading my own Bible and interpreting it myself and applying it myself.

And the Catholics don't do that.

They don't read the bi The priest reads the Bible and gives you a fifteen minute Hey, this is what just remember this this week, and then throughout the week you go and you confess your sins and you move on.

And that feels a more normal to me than what I grew up with at least.

Yeah, there's this big emotional pull.

It's a personal relationship.

You know that everyone close your eyes, your heads, close your eyes, and then raise your hand if you feel like the you know, it's like that little and everyone's doing in private, but you're kind of peeking out the way.

It's like did did my buddy Kyle?

Like is he going to do it?

You know, You're like everyone's kind of doing this thing.

College just kind of like in the cat it's like when you're I don't know what's keep using the Catholic example, but it's like, yeah, in cathetures, like you show up to confession and you just talk about.

What you felt led to talk like therapy.

Yeah, it kind of is therapy, honestly.

So were you you're eleven twelve, get baptized in high school, you're pretty bought in then, like you're like super confident that this is all accurate, correct, and that your little sect of Nazarene Christianity in Raleigh, North Carolina is the real deal.

Yes, accurate correct, real deal.

You know, I was like a leader in my youth group whatever that means.

But I will say that I was not bought in in the fact to the fact that it like quote unquote worked.

Okay, So I, you know, had a girlfriend my senior year of high school, and young boys and girls they're gonna have it's.

Like where how far is the line too close.

To the line like all this, and and like I'm like, well, why do I want to make out with my girlfriend in this way?

And but I know that's the wrong thing to do.

And I'm like, so this thing isn't working.

It's not like keeping me from sin or whatever.

Like that whole conversation, like that internal dialogue was totally uh shame riddled.

Let's say that was a big Like I think that's probably when let's call it sixteen seventeen years old, when it started breaking down internally for me, Like I was like, I'm obviously the wrong kind of person for this, or it's like it's not real enough to where it's transforming me in the way it should be.

And i don't have anyone to talk to because I'm not going to go to my youth pasture.

That's the whole thing.

Yeah, well it's like, you know, it's like I love my youth pastor was great, but he's also my dad's coworker, and it's like, well, I'm trying to and then I didn't want to burden my parents with all this stuff.

Like that's probably where the breakdown began.

So it's like, yeah, living in youth group world where I can be the shiny the shiny PK and and evenge slowly little by little, I'm just like living a double life.

Do you have any siblings.

I have a younger brother.

Yeah, okay, you like close enough to where you were both in youth group.

Yeah, he's three years younger than me, so we were, and we actually we shared some of the same friend groups and stuff.

We were.

Did you, like, have you ever talked to him about like did he have similar experience with this kind of thing or.

Are you not so much?

Man?

I mean he was.

We were very different.

Okay, personality.

I'm very much an extrovert and he's very much an introvert.

So fair and uh, yeah, he kept to his books and homework and stuff.

I was a lot more social, so I got I had more opportunities to I don't know, get in trouble, I suppose.

But so you're leading this double life.

So you're basically like a junior senior in high school and you feel at this point sixteen seventeen years old that it's like I gotta go and put on a do the song and dance at church.

But also know that this pragmatically, just pragmatically isn't working.

It's not a one plus one isn't equaling to you right now?

Yeah, one hundred percent, man.

And so it's like I remember going through like man, I was just like so.

Riddled.

So I remember like so riddled with like shame and guilt and just confusion.

I mean, I look, I have a lot more grace for my younger self, but I was like, yeah, so confused.

And I remember going as So it was after these summer I graduated and I was still dating this girl who was just she was a nice girl, but she was just bad news for me personally, right like just in my in my personal wholeness, I suppose.

And I remember like going to a summer camp confessing to one of the youth leaders that like, oh my me and my girlfriend have gone too far.

And they're like it's okay, like that kind of thing.

But it's like, you know, they were very kind about it, and I was like, okay, this is the moment.

I was like, I'm turning my life around.

So I got back home, I broke up with her.

She was like why, And I was like hard to explain why, Like because I feel guilty all the time.

I don't know what else to say to you.

It's like, it's really not you, it's totally me, like that thing.

Yeah, and everybody was true.

It was it was true.

It was true.

And uh and then really, my the reset I thought was going to be that fall I was going to college at a Nazarene college.

So I currently live in Nashville, and I went to a school, Treveca Nazarene University, and I was like, Okay, I'm going to go to this school.

I'm going to be around a bunch of other Christians and Nazarene specifically, and like, okay, this is going to be I'm gonna I'm like all in.

I'm like digging in.

And that's totally not what happened.

So so.

Coming to coming to college here, one of the cool things.

I was a big like I said, I was a big marching band kid, and I was able to march with the Vanderbilt University marching band because they're such a small SEC school recruited.

Yeah, this is wild.

So they recruited from like all the other smaller private schools that didn't have football or marching band programs.

That's unbelievable.

So I was like this is great.

I'm like and I was just going there for the band, but I was spending so much time there with rehearsals.

All my first friends became all these Vanderbilt kids.

So now I'm at like a big and a you know whatever private Ivy League.

Yeah, that's an academic institution, Yeah for sure.

And so I was meeting people from all different areas walks of life.

I mean, like poor kids that were just really smart, that were just getting out, and like rich kids whose parents bought their way in, Like all different types of people.

And I think college is a very illuminating experience for a lot of young adults.

But this was totally unexpected for me.

And so thus began like the cognitive dissonance of my I would say, my deconstruction era began like that first semester at Trevecca Slash spending a lot of time in Vanields, Like, I became friends with this, uh, this girl who was a self proclaimed atheist, and I was like, well this is interesting.

Ironically enough, her name was Christian, so I call her Christian Christian the atheist.

I was like, this is the simulation is real?

Man?

I was like, what is going on?

And there was this moment where I was like, this person is like, you know, intellectually telling me why God doesn't exist, but she lives in a way that seems so connected and like so connected to something deeper.

I used to tell her jokingly, I was like you believe in God and you just don't know it yet.

And I was like, and it made her so mad when I would say things like this, and but I just couldn't understand it.

I was just like, you, like she was, you know, going to school to be a special needs teacher an educator.

And I was like, so, you're really like dedicating your life to like taking care of like one of the most forgotten populations amongst us.

I was like, that sounds very Christian to me, you know, that sounds that's a beautiful way to live your life in the world.

And I just couldn't couldn't reconcile this.

And then at the same time, I had one of these did you did you go to a Christian college?

I went to a Bible college for one year and then went to the University of South Carolina one year and I was.

Done, Okay, so I'm sure then you there's the you know, I was going for music, okay, but all the all the undergrads had to take a basic Biblical faith class in.

The school I went to.

You you had to double major in Bible at the school I went to is Columbia International University in Columbia, South Carolina and you had to double major in Bible, so you had to take your curse load, and then you had to take Old Testament New Testament.

Intercultural Studies.

Western Civis taught through a Biblical like you had to take all these Bible classes.

Okay, yeah, then you I understand this well.

But I had a really great I had a really great professor that first year, and I think he knew what he was doing, but at the time, I was like, what is going on here?

So we were going through like an overview of the Bible, and he was like, okay, so this is the crash course, like these stories were oral tradition for millennia or whatever, and then someone wrote him down somewhere, and then fast forward to like the church councils, and then we looked at all these texts and all the Jewish texts and all the Gospels and the epistles written down and all this stuff, and then they decided which ones we wanted to keep in and then which ones we wanted to throw out.

And then like the Catholics kept more in right that we don't talk about, and then we translated.

It a bunch of times.

And that's the thing.

That is in front of you that we call like the Word of God.

And I was like, well, of course this is not accurate.

Like there's no way period this.

Like I was like, and at that point, I was like, so there's this Christian the atheist over here and my bible.

Who's my Bible?

That's no longer true in my mind?

I was like, well, I'm gonna try.

I was like, I'm going to try being an atheist.

I think.

I like literally remember going out walking back to my dorm room.

I was like, I'm just gonna try on this.

I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and God doesn't exist.

I was like, I'm just gonna try this.

What a hard fast cut there, I.

Dude, I didn't know what else to do, man, I was like, I had no I just it felt like the right thing to do.

I don't know.

I was like my Bible.

Teacher like joke encouraged me to like stop believing in God?

Right, Yeah, got a boy?

What by your Bible teacher?

Honestly?

Man, But I think he knew what he was doing because it was like you gotta have You're gonna have to wrestle with this kid.

It's like it's so weird.

I mean, I'm I'm about three or four years older than you.

But I I went to school and then I heard some of this and I lawyered it like you just decided and maybe it was your your friend Christian the atheist and you know some of the bed you know, some of the best Christians or atheists.

That's not my quote, but I've heard it somewhere and it's a great quote.

My take was to lawyer, it was to go, well, yeah, but we got the most accurate, or we got the most like I went through a whole part of my deconstruction was you know, I spent a lot longer in the bargaining phase than I think you, at least initially, and I'm fascinated to where we go.

But it sounds like you're like, well, I'm gonna try this other thing on.

I couldn't have I can't even imagine going.

I had to bargain.

I had to do a full thing where I showed up in court every day and was like in my head, you know, it was like, well, but how many manuscripts does the Odyssey have?

Not many?

Like you know what I mean, Like that's that's what I was doing.

In college and you were you were like, well, let me just go at full full atheists in full a and see what happens.

Well, yeah, I was the I mean, let's like it didn't let's say it didn't last.

It was still I guess I was still lawyering it, arguing it, trying to like do some internal apologetics on like okay, well whatever this means that, this means that, I mean another another interesting let's to cut back to the whole like Nazarene thing.

And I was never taught this explicitly but again steeped in it over you know, my youth.

But like the Nazarene Church does not believe in like a fundamentalist reading of the Bible.

No, they say, like they believe in in errancy with regards to your salvation.

Like that's so, facts, dates, numbers, all this stuff was never like, if you don't believe in a six day creation, then.

That is nice.

I think it actually set me free to explore, like deconstruct this and then kind of like wrestle with things without being like, well if I don't believe that, you know this many people marched around a wall and specifically at this time, then it's like I'm gonna lose, Like the whole thing isn't real.

So I really kind of once I came quote unquote an atheist right for let's call it.

I probably lasted a month, but I like was sitting with this, and at the end of it, I was just like, Okay, well the only thing I can say is like I just I can't deny the existence of God.

I just have to like start somewhere.

I was like, so I just can't not believe in God.

That was kind of square one for me, man.

So I was like, well, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna like start there.

That was actually like really freeing.

It was kind of like I don't know, I think I'd read in a book.

It was like trying to be like why, Like what's your favorite food?

So my favorite food is pancakes.

It's like why, I don't know, I just like pancakes.

It's like, how do you good?

Do you believe in God?

It's like, yes, why, I don't know, I just do.

It's like so it's a kind of like that thing.

Yeah, you have to like it's it is, you know, I've used the I reference the film Inception A lot on this podcast, because you know, something is what spinds that top.

Like you, if you pull off all the there's something you have to start with, right, And I think it's much healthier to go there's something not nothing, you know what I mean.

I got to that place later than you, but I got to a place where it's like all this came from something, or it came from nothing.

I think it came from something.

I do I still believe it came from something.

Right.

That's a much healthier place to be than this book as it's written in the King's English is gospel truth and it is equal with a deity, right, Yes, if you start there.

I think that's why we have a lot of the problems we have with Christians and the fact that eighty percent of Evangelicals voted for a guy who is just demonic or is just godless.

Then it is going all right.

Square one for me is it's something not nothing, which is where you.

Are, Yeah, exactly right.

And so this is about let's we can get into some of the books because it's there is I think this weird era of Christian publishing from like two thousand three to like two thousand and eight something like that.

So I was reading guys like Rob Bell I was reading.

Yeah, yeah, I was reading before he was Universalists.

Yeah, but like he I was reading.

And then Donald Miller Jazz for sure, absolutely I read all I read all of his books.

I was.

So that was and then and I dug back into like C.

S.

Lewis.

I had never re read anything that wasn't his like fiction stuff, you know, so I was reading like mere Christianity and screw tap vs and stuff like yeah The Great Divorce.

And like another philosopher, theologian, Peter Rollins.

I don't know if you're familiar with him that he's an Irish and irishman that kind of took this really postmodern like philosophy like Lacan and uh fucoh people that I would never be able to read.

But he was super imposing this on like Christian theology, and it was really like transformative.

I was like, okay, okay, so if I can start from square one where it's like, yeah, there's something, not nothing, and I don't have to be like like beholden to a literal reading of the Bible, let's start exploring this space.

And so that was actually like really freeing.

I think for that like early college mind, Like I remember coming home from college this this is such a young college kid thing to say.

And there were and my parents were having people over for dinner, and one of the guys was like, so, what have you been learning at your you know, he was also a Nazarene.

What have you been learning?

And I was like, and I was being a little snarky, and I was like, oh, I learned that.

I think.

I was like something like I learned there's there's no such thing as like universal truth.

And he's like what And I.

Was like, okay.

I was like, well, lying is bad, right, I was like, yes, well, if you were in the in the Second World War, if you were hiding Jews in your house and a Nazi knocked on the door, would you what would you say?

And I was like, you would have to you would tell a lie.

So lying is not always bad, you know, Like I was like, ha ha, dude, I know many exactly, But these were the kind of questions where I was like, Okay, I'm starting to maybe like learn, I don't know, discernment or I'm just thinking deeper about these things.

And and I think that was really like, you know, a little more transformative.

Now.

At the same time, deeper into my college career, I'm getting involved in.

So I I play music for a living.

I'm a touring musician, and so I was playing in a bunch of worship bands around campus and at camps and all this stuff.

So now I'm kind of putting myself back into a PK role again.

Yeah, but now on stage there's an image to uphold.

You can't say to anybody you're trying out a theism like stuff like that.

Yeah, there is a performative aspect.

Now, this is very common and a very common story with people that get involved in the church.

You kind of see how the sausage is made and then you get disillusioned with that pretty quickly.

So yeah, there was another this.

So I'm now in another performative aspect of my faith.

So again, like the splitting of the personalities begins again at a different stage, right, Like I remember going to you know, playing these these church camps, and.

I began to get really cynical.

I was like, Okay, I used to be the kids sitting out there and now I'm the Now I'm the kid up here, and it's like, Okay, Monday night we're going to do this Tuesday night.

We're going to do that Wednesday, it's going to get a little heavier.

But Thursday night, that's the night man, And I know exactly what songs we're going to sing, and I know exactly when that low chorus hits and that it's the people are going to be and the message is gonna be the Salvation, and like it's gonna be a tear fest and a like everyone.

Out the eltar, dude.

And I just felt like we were putting these teenagers on like a conveyor belt and doing exactly what had been done, you know.

I was like that was me.

And then they get off the end and they're like gonna go home and they're gonna say, well, this isn't working.

I was like, I'm now a part of the problem, you know.

So I was now I was feeling really like, Okay, well this is a problem, Like this is trouble.

I was like, I don't know how to break this cycle because I tried to break it on my own or something, my my own personal journey.

And then now I'm all of a sudden just back in the you know, grips of the machine kind of perpetuating this.

Did you feel like you could pop the bubble from the inside, Like I'll play the songs and I'll i'll you know, swell the swell the music and will it will engineer this.

But when I talk to people, I'm gonna make sure they know did you do that?

Bit?

That was my bit was like I'm gonna pop the bubble from the inside, Like I got, you know, outward facing be this thing.

But on in my personal conversations I can really try to make people understand the reality.

Not not.

At that time, I did not have the courage or maybe even the desire or like energy to pop the bubble from the inside.

I just real I was I was getting becoming very cynical and jaded on the inside and just was kind of like, yeah, ready to ready to be done with it?

Man, did you leave it or did you get over it?

I left it, so I mean like kind of once once college was over, I didn't get really involved in a church for a for a while, which was nice to kind of not feel like, Okay, I don't like have to do this thing every Sunday or be in or if I go to a church, I don't have to like be involved in a church.

You know, I eventually started getting back involved in a church.

But I'll tell you, man, the one thing after that that was really like more healing would have been I got I started going to an Episcopalian church, and there was something about that environment that was another little reset for me.

So it's like where we talk about the personal emotional salvation experience, there's something about these more liturgical spaces that it's like when you are like, this is going to happen whether you're here or not, Like, walk into the room, say the words, don't say the words, sing the songs, don't sing the songs.

It's just going to be here if you need.

Like, I was like, that's kind of a beautiful things because it's not like the demand is on you to be emotionally in the right spot to like experience God.

It was kind of like, this is a space we make space for God.

You're welcome, like to walk out.

There's a beauty to remember and to repetition that I think we lose regardless of what you believe.

There's a beauty in remembering the long lineage of what's come before you in history and saying things that other people have said.

I know that that sounds like so dumb down, but I believe.

I don't know a lot of what I believe some days, but I do know that there's a calm in in that that I didn't get in church growing up.

That there's there's a definite calm in that that you know, there are hymns that I love to sing still that I may not necessarily agree with the theology of the hymns, but there's something about the repetition and the remembrance that I that I think is universe, that is universal.

Yeah, I mean I I Another another striking experience was with I was a part of a college choir and they take a trip to Europe every like four years, and so this was right at the tail end of my time there.

And we're going across Europe and like singing in all these cathedrals and I was like, number one, Wow, these buildings are older than our entire country.

And we got to take a tour of the like the Roman catacombs where all these martyrs are buried, and we we sang, we sang the Lord's Prayer in that space and like that on it, That on its was probably one of the more like transformative like experiences, because like I'm surrounded by people who died probably saying these as maybe their last words, like saying these words as their last words.

And then even when they were seeing or even when like the these cathedrals they were doing the Mass and Italian or Latin, I knew when they were seeing are speaking the Lord's Prayer because there's a cadence to it.

And I was like, oh, wow, this is big.

This is like way bigger than so like you know, all the wrestling of yeah personal salvation, or the cynicism of like the Western Church and just American evangelicalism and like all this stuff that's just kind of seems like a marketing scheme or just to employ to raise kids the right way or get your money or something.

It's like.

All kind of went away for those brief moments, right, It's like it's like, oh, the church is way way bigger, and so I think it just that opened me up to I don't know, I you know, it's like I became less connected to the church of my upbringing, my roots, but more connected to something bigger.

It's like, as the thing kind of kept getting knocked over in my own life like the stuff I had built, it kind of got bigger in.

A different way.

But you know, people would say maybe more you know, too open or too you know universal.

I mean you talk about Rob Belle the Universalist.

When I read Love Wins, I was like, I don't see the problem with this.

Like I was like, I was like, what's the big deal here?

Man?

Like everyone's up in arms?

There's any problem with universalism?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah?

So I remember I read a book called Letters from a Skeptic by Greg Boyd.

Have you heard of this book when I was in college or this ok?

Where he basically is writing his father.

It's just letters back and forth with his dad, where his dad doesn't believe and he does believe.

And I remember reading that book in college and just it floored me, and then finding out that Greg Boyd was an open theist, which was apparently a slippery slope to not being a Christian at all, and it but that book felt more like like your friend Christian the atheist felt a lot more like the real deal than what I was taught.

And I think Rob Bell was that for a lot of people.

Greg Boyd not nearly as big a deal as Rob Bell, but similar lines.

You read the book and you're like, this checks, and then you got a bunch of academics who are like it doesn't check and here's why.

And you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

That isn't like, that doesn't vibe.

But I get what you're saying about tearing down some of your childhood stuff resulting in something bigger, Like that makes a lot of sense.

It's in my head now, So I got to ask it.

Now, you're close to my age, similar upbringing.

What CCM were you listening to?

What?

What?

What were?

What were the bands growing up that you loved?

So let's I'd love to go down this path.

Man.

I didn't mean to interrupt you though.

No, No, this I was actually this is kind of the next This is kind of the next bit of the story.

The bands I was listening.

To, I mean Jars of Clay, DC Talk Audio, Adrenaline, switch Foot, I mean some more obscure ones, All Star United.

Oh yeah absolutely.

I mean the first CD I ever bought myself was a Michael W.

Smith CD went out, but that was when I was like ten.

Was it picture perfect?

Lead You Home, Lead You Home?

Okay?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know Stephen Curtis.

Yeah, f f H.

I don't know this is old the Big Fish.

Yeah, yeah, man, I see them.

I saw I saw all the bands that you mentioned obviously, but I saw F FH.

And none of them played instruments, And I was like, what are we Like they were just in a church with like a backing track yep, And I was like, what's going on here?

Like, I'm not my brother's a musician.

I'm not a musician.

But I was like, this doesn't seem like I should have paid money for this.

This doesn't seem as hard as some of the other things I've seen in content.

Yeah, this is it sounds like a band.

When I listened to the record and now they're up here, it's not a Yeah.

If you listen to one of these days the song which is still a banger by FFH, go look it up right now on Spotify, and then you were to see them live, you would be like, what in the youth group am I watching right now?

It is a very different experience than listening to the track.

There's no doubt about.

It, dude.

I remember I was big into pod a lot of people, and I also remember in my youth like when they were on like their music video is getting traction on MTV's Yeah, and I remember like I was like, oh, look at this, like Christian music is making such an impact in like secular world or whatever.

It was like this little secret like we're waiting, dude, dude or whatever.

You know.

Yeah, seriously is like but yeah, man, I grew up on Christian music.

I think the heyday of Christian music, where every band sounded different and even kind of like so funny that it was like if you liked if you liked Rage Against the Machine, you'll love this band.

If you liked you know, uh, three eleven, you'll love this band, if you liked uh, like kind of like switch Foot was like this cool indie rock band.

I think switch Foot is still amazing.

Pretty amazing, dude.

John Foreman is a fantastic individual.

But yeah, So my journey through moving to Nashville and being in music and all this stuff led me to start playing in Christian music.

So oh wow, I was you know, I was.

Playing and up right yeah, So yeah, I.

Mean Nashville is like it's Christian music and country music that's the bulk of the music economy there.

I didn't I had no idea I was able to, you know, like I've.

Become friends with like some of the guys that were in Jars of Clay, Like, I had no idea that I would run into them in these circles and they would be a fantastic Any of them would be a fantastic.

Guest on I would love give me the info, man, I'll yeah, I want.

I also want Rhese Roper from five Iron Frenzy.

That's who I want.

Frenzy.

I used to wear out their their live their live CD.

Proof that the Youth Are Revolting was the name of the Yeah, yeah, yeah, every New day at the end of every concert by them, come on, come on.

Dude, And like that was when you know, Cornerstone was the biggest like music festival I went.

Did you ever go to I've been.

I've been a handful of times.

Yeah.

Oh man, I went to the original in Peoria, Illinois and oh wow, four five.

I would have been.

I would have gone in like twenty eleven or so.

It was late and it wasn't the same Cornerstone that I grew up.

That was when they started to do satellite Cornerstones.

Yea, like when they did like Charlotte all these but like originally they uh uh the one in Peoria in the cornfield, it just smelled like sulfur and like it was like seventeen stages.

You just didn't take a shower for three days.

Uh.

That was right after switch Foot came out with Meant to Live.

Because I was in a tent watching I'd seen switch Foot so many times.

I was in a tent watching the oc Supertones with like two hundred other people.

This was after their heyday and they were like nothing, and they were still trying to make records.

And in between songs you heard the riff from Meant to Live, that opening riff across a farm because they were on the main stage.

It was such a time.

It was so and I do think you're right.

I think that Christian music became a money man, like the guy Rhys Roper has said from Five Iron Frenzy, like we did Christian music to make money so that we could go do the bars.

Like you just it became, by the time you got into it, a money making thing where it's like, let's not try to do anything different or give any artists any freedom.

It's like, let's make let's engineer it all and then let's find a vessel to sing it, and then let's charge a bunch of money for tickets and stuff like.

That's my I got out of Christian music in like the late two thousands because I just was like, this is just all.

But that's where you enter in as a mess.

That's right, I entered in.

So this is actually it's perfect because I saw the homogenization of Christian music happening in real time.

That's unbelievable.

The band I was playing with, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna name that name just because they're still making music and stuff.

So but the band I was playing with, we were very we kind of just connected in this.

We're all raised church kids for the most part, and I think we're all going through this deconstruction thing together.

And we were tired of the double living.

So you know, we were having honest conversations.

We were cussing, we were drinking beer, we were smoking cigarettes every once in a while.

We were like doing a rock band thing, and but we were also like loving on people.

Man Like I remember, like we were being out there and it's like, okay, we're not just going to go on stage and pretend to be you know, the polished of church boys and then go and live another life when we're off on our own or at home.

It's like, we're going to be the same people on stage as we were in front of anyone else, right, And that just did not go well.

And so over the course of trying to grind this out for a couple of years, you know, you have a little bit of success on the radio and you start playing some bigger shows.

But then I remember we were making our second record and we were really proud of it because we had written a lot of it on the road together and then just recorded demos on our own, and like we're working with a producer and then the label comes in.

They're like, hey, we need you guys to go right with this guy and this guy and this guy because your Jesus count is too low, and like, what's the Jesus?

Oh my god.

It's like yeah, yeah, it's like, well, you don't say Jesus enough in your songs.

And I was like, well, we're talking about Jesus.

We're talking about like real life and faith and like we're really being honest here.

It's like, yeah, well, we just need like radio needs something, like we need something we can play on the radio.

That was this is crazy.

First of all, that I get this confirmation because there was this, you know, growing up in the nineties, all the music guy listened to in Christian music, they wouldn't play on the radio.

There was not to do it.

And then when they realize people are getting older, they had to make that merge.

And there was one thing about that merge in the two thousands where the music just sounded and felt different.

And this is it what you're saying is making me feel less crazy?

No, it's it's absolutely true.

And so I remember that there were like other bands that they started making, like you know, we're you know, two records in to this this time, and it's like, oh, so and so is making a worship record.

And I was like, well, of course they are, because everyone's making a worship record.

I was like, they're not a worship band.

I was like, come on, guys, like someone's got to stick this out with us.

Like we're like and we just kept getting you know, playing all these festivals and it's like we're.

Going to play the late.

Afternoon slot, never higher than that, because you know, the higher like the Newsboys are always going to be headlining those Newsboys.

Yes, bro, Yeah, that.

Entire story is let me say, I'm disappointed to hear that, but I am not surprised because that was another you know, I don't know how much you've read about that whole situation.

Oh a lot.

The term open secret.

It's like I wasn't as like in on the secret, but it was definitely things that were talked about behind like on the I think that's a little.

Basically the way I heard it, Like, I mean, I saw DC talking concert over a dozen times, and I saw Newsboys pre Michael Tait at least that many one of the bet like there take me to Your Leader tour where Furler was on the drums and John James was out front and they would spend the drums.

It's just like one of the best concerts I've ever been to still to this day, Like it's that impressive.

When he did lost the plot when everybody leave the stage.

I don't know if you went to it, it was amazing to the tour, Oh my god.

Uh.

And that would be a little bit early for you because I would have been like for you know what I mean, right for you and youth group, So there's also that.

But you know, you talk to people who were like in the Nashville music scene in the nineties, and everybody you talked to who like would be like, oh, yeah, everybody knows this and that like that is that speaks to your like Jesus count thing, which is what do you mean everybody?

What do you mean?

Like, like just to put it in perspective for folks that weren't didn't have our background and didn't have a problem with gay people, it would be like somebody going, well, yeah, he robs banks and everybody knows that, and no one's saying anything.

No one is going, should we call someone about the bank robber?

Like no one's saying anything?

Dude.

That was crazy.

It is It is crazy.

Yeah.

I remember feeling like I remember feeling more like.

I Yeah, I was like, oh, we like we think he's like closeted homosexual.

And I was like, Oh, that's unfortunate that you're such a figurehead for a massive Christian band.

Must be tough.

Like that's kind of where I was like, that's I was like, that's kind of sad.

I didn't know.

I didn't really know some of the more serious allegations.

But again, you're doing all that stuff in secret, and it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.

But that was exactly like I never saw like, you know, that degree of kind of dysfunction and abuse.

But that again, if I guess there's a thread we're pulling here, it's like I felt people like there were people in the Christian music industry that had to just live that polished up life and this was you know, and then another life behind closed doors.

Yeah and again.

Yeah, in the particular group I was with, we just decided not to do that.

So it's like kind of like once you know, once the industry kind of decided that we weren't acceptable, we just kind of became completely unacceptable, like even like more and really like the cynicism and like the jaded feelings and like all that kind of drove us.

That was like we were kind of raging against the machine to know, you know, to no effect really, but uh, that was where we got.

I mean, it was like and that really kind of ruined my perception on a lot of things, you know, church or Christian or I was just like, this is all like whether I almost had nothing to do with my personal belief.

At that point, I was like, this is all just so so backwards and like so unhealthy, and anyone that's falling for this is just a fool.

And that really was where I.

You know, kind of made it made me angry more so because I mean I wanted like I'm playing music for a living man, like this is like chasing the dream and I'm with some talented guys and we're actually writing really honest stuff and no one gives a shit and until our Jesus count is up, or until we can like do an alter call.

Like dude.

I remember we would play these events and they would be like, hey, can you guys like do an alter call?

And I was like, we're not pastors, like we're guitar players, and we're like songwriters, like we're not like we have no business leading these people.

But it's like, well, nope, you're.

Doing it for the Lord.

Man.

It was almost like everything was secondary, no matter, like you could get away with anything as long as you were just like you did it, you know, did it for the Lord, as long as those moments you're on stage that you created an experience for people.

Like it's just it's so hard to imagine someone being in that and making a living doing that and not either just burning out completely or just buying in completely.

It doesn't feel like they leave you much choice.

No, that's why we I mean, that's eventually why we all stepped away to pursue different two different avenues.

So I currently I tour with a country artist with a secular artist, if you will, which I think essentially, I know it's a that dichotomy is bullshit, but I find what I.

Do way more.

I don't know, it's just way more Christian, if I want to use that word, because the people I tour with are I think most of them are like, you know, some form of a believer, or at least we're raised that way.

And it's like we're not we're not hiding what we were doing.

It's like we're just bringing positivity and excellence into all these spaces and it actually, you know, it's like we're not having to meet this quota, this weird spiritual quota for either saving souls or talking about Jesus enough.

It's like, can't we just you know, love on people, play good music, entertain and that be that like.

Seems pretty straightforward.

But I also I would think so.

That would also go into the like you know, would meet you kind of where you are personally too, in a good place, which is which is where right now?

So like if I obviously you can change tomorrow, but like when it comes to these big spiritual questions, you're a parent, now, you got two young ones, as they get older, what is what is your current frame of reference for what all this?

What your role is in all of this, things that are greater than you, and what you need to pass to your kids in that regard.

Yeah, okay, so that's we're in the present.

Yeah, I have two little ones, three and like twenty months.

That's about when you start saying almost two, right, twenty months?

Yeah, yeah, almost two?

Yeah, I guess so that's almost too.

I guess I've been yeah whatever, three and a half year old, almost two year old.

I'm just I'm sorry, no, no like to be.

To be honest, Like, we have not gone to a church since COVID happened.

Once COVID happened, it kind of like I think a lot of people are.

In that bro.

Yeah, and I we've wrestled with it.

I mean, because I tour, I don't get home a lot till Sunday morning.

So it's like the last thing I want to do after rolling off a bus or an airplane at like seven am is like drag myself to church.

But yeah, there has been that thought.

It's like, Okay, you know, I don't like, do I want my kids to be raised in this thing?

So but I don't want to do the the just cultural Christianity thing like it's the thing to do.

But there is part of me that I've been wrestling with.

It's like, well, I had the opportunity to like be taught something or absorb something and then the freedom to kind of break it all down and discover what is left.

And I know my kids are going to grow up with some sort of scaffolding of thought, belief, you know, understanding of their place in the world.

And I don't know if I want to totally just like leave it up to them or just the world at large.

So it's like, well, if nothing else, could you know, find the right the right church space to at least give them some scaffolding and then encourage them along the way to be like, now it's your job to wrestle with this rather than just being like, well whatever, whatever you think.

It's like I don't know if they're gonna maybe they'll like, you know, this is absurd, but like go to the Church of Bluey and that's like now their entire worldview or something.

I mean, kids are way smart than that.

But living up right now for the Church of Blue Yeah.

Honestly that is it's an amazing show.

But it's like, you know, and with the prevalence of information and just like I'm I have so many big questions about AI and like the fact that there's going to confirmation bias to the infinite degree, and like what are where is?

Where does truth exist in this new world that we're creating for ourselves.

And it's like I feel like maybe the church, the right church, let me say that the right church could maybe provide some ground level place to jump off from.

I don't think I don't need it to be their end all be all, like whatever, but it's just kind of like, would I be doing my kids a disadvantage just like leaving them to the greatness of the world, you know, Yeah, that's kind of where That's kind of where I'm at.

I love that.

Do you have hope?

Like do you have hope in anything outside of uh, what you do and your family and your loved ones.

You have hope for the current entity that is American Christianity.

M No, not at the moment, I do not.

I think I could see it was hard for you to say no.

Yeah, I think I think the the you you reference the politics of it like a few times.

I think that's that's the biggest that's a big question mark here.

So I think with the yeah, the political divisions and kind of I think the scramble for or just the confusion of truth with how much information is out there, the church needs to do.

Something that's very real like that.

You know, I could ask chat GBT to come up with like the best sermon on Matthew five or whatever.

It's like, we don't need a pastor to do that.

So what do we need the church to do now?

So it's like, and I think, I mean, it's it's going to have to be real, it's going to have to be embodied, it's gonna have to make a difference in people's lives.

Maybe maybe the best church I could imagine is something that is less about showing up to a building and you know, on a weekly basis and more about just you know, like living out you know, community in people's lives, raising your raising your kids together, and sharing meals together.

And you know, when you know people are sick, you can pray together or something.

But it doesn't have to be a performative thing that we do in front of congregation or this that you know that's kind of maybe like the best hope for the church.

It is as good as I could have worded it on my best day, Kevin, h thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for joining me.

Uh and uh, I just really appreciate you, man, I really do.

Is good.

Good to get to know you a little bit.

Dude.

This was really easy, man, and you're great to have these conversations with them, Honor, do you have been able to share this with you?

Man?

I can't thank Kevin enough for joining me this week.

Kevin is thoughtful, smart, and most importantly, still working through all of this.

According to Church Track, sixteen percent of regularly attending church goers stop going to church after the pandemic in twenty twenty.

Kevin and his family are in that statistic, and they're not the only ones that have been featured on this podcast.

It seems that the pandemic occurred at such a crossroads for a lot of church goers in ways that went far beyond the medicine of it all.

There was a continguous election racial violence in the stories of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, amongst many others, plus a pandemic all melded together in the minds of many Christians already questioning their faith.

If the church wasn't a place that preferred others by taking medical precautions, or spoke out against anti immigrant, bigoted rhetoric from political leaders, or spoke up for justice during these acts of extreme racial violence, then at its core, what was its purpose.

While I can't pretend to tell you that all of these factors directly relate to Kevin's experience, I can tell you that the evidence supports the thesis that the exodus from church attendance was about much more than an international pandemic.

Kevin seems to take this lack of consistent church attendants for the first time in his life as a new normal, but not necessarily an endgame.

He holds it with an open hand.

He knows he has tough decisions coming up as his kids get older about what to teach them and how to set a loving example.

And I think his contentment in this liminal space is a comforting reminder that it doesn't take knowing or figuring it out in order to want to be the best version of yourself.

Thanks for listening.

Breakfast and Hell is produced by Will Cown is written and hosted by Daniel Thompson.

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