Welcome to Breakfast in Hell.

Joining me this week is Joe Fulton.

Joe grew up in small towns throughout Pennsylvania as the oldest of three pastors kids.

Joe's father was a pastor in the Methodist tradition, a branch of Christianity known for moving their pastors from church to church regularly, and because of this, Joe found himself at seemingly a different school every couple of years throughout his childhood, trying to find a new normal.

Joe also grew up trying to figure out how to perform as a pastor's kid, an idea that as a pastor's kid myself I related to very strongly.

Because of the pedestal pastors are placed on, especially in small town communities, there can be, and usually is, an unnecessary performative burden placed on the pastor's family.

They are the representation of the character of the pastor and routinely the conduits for either the praise or the judgment of how the pastor is doing their job.

As a whole.

Joe feels this burden at church every time the door opens, wanting to meet the standard he feels has been placed on him by each new congregation of his father.

Also compounding this burden, Joe never really emotionally resonates with Christianity.

Now, at almost fifty years old, He's honest that he doesn't believe he ever really latched onto it.

Instead, he just went through the motions as best he could until he was an adult, at which point he was thrilled to leave.

I resonated a lot with this fellow preacher's kid.

Joe's a great storyteller and someone that has clearly processed his childhood healthily, mining it for the good that was there while leaving everything else behind.

Hope you enjoy our convo.

Here's Joe, Joe.

I have had the opportunity to do some podcasts with you, and i've but I've never I have met you in person at Christmas con so I got that going for me as well.

But to say we know each other super well would be an accurate So now's the time.

I'm glad you're here.

Thanks for joining me.

Start wherever you want to start, and tell me a little bit about yourself.

Sure, sure, Well.

I grew up in western Pennsylvania in numerous towns.

Okay, you guys, moved to lot, moved a lot, just from the little town in Pennsylvania to little town, little town to little town.

Yeah.

I am the oldest of three brothers, and you and I both have something in common.

Okay, our dad was a minister.

Oh wow, okay, right on what kind of minister?

My dad was a Methodist minister.

Oh that's why you moved?

Yeah, yes, yes, So every what is it every three years?

Is that correct?

It's something in there.

It was different for him, a variety of different years.

Sometimes it was two, sometimes it's five, sometimes it was ten.

You know, it was it was a very very uh difficult childhood, do you know.

I know that, you know, for those that are uninitiated.

The Methodist denomination, which is probably of the evangelical denominations, the most social justice forward of them also, and I don't know if the tradition dates back all the way to circuit riders, which were ministers that traveled from town to town during the Great Awakening.

But they treat their ministers, their head pastors like they're on a circuit.

So they will take that, they will plant them in a church or put them in a church, and then they'll remove them, you know, and bring in a different minister.

Which is very different than say a Southern Baptist or a Presbyterian version of this.

So was your dad being do you remember those moves?

Do you remember him being like upset or happy or or just that just you knew it was coming at some point.

Later on and when I was older.

Obviously, I think the first time we moved, I was like two years old, so I really don't call a lot of that, but there were times.

There was one year, I think this was probably the third place that we had moved.

I went to four different schools in four different years.

Wow, all in Pennsylvania, All in Pennsylvania.

Yeah.

I went to the elementary school, which I had been at for a couple of years.

I went to a middle school, and then we moved, and then I went to a junior high and then I was in eighth grade, and then I went to high school and ninth so it was four different schools.

Yeah.

The good news is the good news is middle school isn't a formative time for for kids.

They don't they don't need consistency or anything like that.

No, no, no, it was that was perfectly fine.

You know, it was easy, just going in, meeting new kids all the time.

I can't imagine, Joe, I cannot imagine moving every year of middle school.

That's brutal.

Yeah, it was, it was.

It was not fun.

I will say that was probably some of the hardest times of my life.

And but uh, my dad was, well he's still he's still with us, he's just retired now.

But uh, he is actually the fourth generation Methodist minister in my family.

Oh my god.

So anybody, any of your I don't think you, but you're either of your two brothers become a Methodist minister to make it fun.

No, the tradition is ending in this generation, Okay, and I think, uh, I think I'm happy about that.

Yeah, it's a lot.

My dad, my uncle were both ministers, my grandfather, my great grandfather, and my great grandfather all the way back into the Civil War.

My brother is a really good family history of this.

But he was.

They came from the United Brethren in Christ which merged with the Methodist So they were Mennonites.

Yeah and yeah, and uh, you know a lot of German.

That was what I grew up in.

But yeah, being a preacher kid, uh is not exactly the easiest thing in the world.

Why is that well, let me tell you something.

There's a movie I just watched recently called the Best Christmas Patcheant Ever.

Yeah, yeah, and you know I love Christmas movies.

But I was watching that movie and I liked it.

It was good.

But the best part about it was that the villains in that movie was the Congregation.

Because yeah, correct, that's kind of how your life is when you're a preacher kid.

I I am tracking with you so hard right now, Joe, But tell explain that to people a little bit.

So when you're the preacher kid there, I think there's like three different types because I've met a number of preacher kids.

They're the ones that are going to be super religious who embrace the role.

They they they love God, they they do everything they're supposed to do, and they've they've they're just the perfect kid.

They buy into the system.

The system favors them, and that works out well for them.

That was yes, yeah, but I know about these other two types.

Go ahead, yes, So the other type, the second type is the kids that are just awful.

There are actually awful preacher kids.

I will give you that.

They think they can they they you, they they think they can get away with everything.

Because they are the preacher kid.

And I've seen so many of those.

Oh, I got away with absolutely anything I wanted to get away with as a preacher's kid, for sure.

Yeah, so I kind of fall into the third category.

It's it's kids like me.

They we do what we're asked, but we have issues because we're not.

We're basically told we have to go to church, we have to go be an accolyte, we have to go be in the youth choir, we have to be in the bell choir, we have to do help with the fish fries, we have to be an usher, we have to be in the youth group.

And it just becomes the point where you're just playing the role of the kid, almost like you're at your parents job.

So think of it for people who Yeah, so for people who don't didn't grow up as a preacher kid, think of you going to your dad's job and act and how and everyone's looking at how you act and judge and God.

Judge you such a great illustration, Joe that I've literally like you brought up like some serious, just like immediate imposter syndrome feelings that I had growing up.

But you You're wanted us right, like if anything, like if your dad was a welder, he was the best welder, the managing welder, and you win.

Everybody's like, oh, you're getting into welding.

You know, you're already starting to and they're all, that is exactly, but you have to do it three or four times a week in that wild.

Yes, it's it's insane, the pressure and the expectations that the congregation puts on you as they look at you supposed to because you're supposed to be the perfect kid.

You're supposed to be the kid that knows everything about God and everything about the Bible.

You're the one who was supposed to be the leader.

You're the one of all the kids.

You're the one who's supposed to just be there and be the most pleasant person in the world.

And but that's not a reality, no, And the and the reality is if there are people in their congregation that are just awful people, because there's always awful people.

They may not like your dad, or they may and so so many times I would be in Sunday school and I would be asked questions and they're they're trying to find out like things about me or things about my parents, so that they can use that to you know, either a you know, judge my dad judge yes, or you know if in certain ways there were times where people just didn't want my dad there because they either a didn't agree with what his his you know, his teachings, or he was doing something in the church that they didn't like.

That's often also a lot.

Of that is painted by their opinion of the person that came before.

So yes there where you know you can anytime you step into a role as a pastor, there are big fans of the person that came before that or have just decided you're bad before you start.

Oh yeah, we and one of the places that we moved I'm trying to not try to provide exact location, of course, but there was one time we moved and we received a lot of harassing phone calls because people liked the previous minister and so they would and we we would pick up the phone and they would say, get out, leave, we don't want you here.

And it's just like what, I've never listen what the hell is?

Correct?

I If you're listening to this and are shocked the politics of the pastor and the pastor's family is akin to the president.

Like, you know, I can't tell you how many times throughout my childhood and then throughout history, like living in just the years that I've lived, people want to talk about the president's kids as a reflect Like you know, I remember the talk of Chelsea Clinton, how out of hand of God, of Sasha, Emily Obama, out of hand of God?

Baron Trump?

Now like this is a normal, Like when George W.

Bush's daughters were caught smoking weed in college, something that probably seventy percent of college students did.

Like imagine that just as intense, but on a small local scale.

That's basically what we were going through.

Oh yeah, it's it's it gets down to the minutia of my hair was starting to get too long.

That's crazy.

You have to cut it now.

I'm not going to say it's always.

Then the congregation, we had a grandmother.

My grandmother lived with us when I was about two years old, and she lived with us until I went away to college.

But she was a minister's wife, and so you know, she knew, she knew the role.

She knows what she's supposed to do, she knows what the politics are, she knows that if you do something wrong.

Your dad's going to be judged.

So while I love my grandmother, she was enforcing these stupid rules.

Yeah, you know she I remember once I came home and she goes, we came from home from church.

And now you know, my parents don't know.

I always listened.

I would hear things and and witness things.

But I would hear my grandmother say to my mom, Uh, someone mentioned that Joe's hair is getting too long.

I think we need to cut it, or Joe is you know that shirt that he was wearing is probably not appropriate for church.

It's it was probably just like a plain T shirt or something like that, you know, just little things like that.

And you know, my mom went went along with it for a long time.

Like it like I really remember, like, you know, making sure that I'm properly dressed, making sure that I, you know, everything looks good, because there were old ladies that would sit there and just judge me for how I would look.

You know, I don't know this.

This is how obviously has to sound familiar to you.

Oh listen, I There's so many times I could have interjected, but I also like, this is your story, but I am the you know, the amount of pressure.

That that is double edged.

So like I was definitely in the camp of I got away with a lot of stuff, but like I fit that mold so well and was just naturally able to roll the scripture verses off my tongue and tell people what they wanted to hear.

And I was a great ambassador for the church and my parents.

But if anytime a congregant doesn't like your dad, they're going to find a reason to not like you.

And I that was my dad was very well liked in the two places that he was a pastor of the course of my childhood.

But there were a few people that didn't like my dad.

And much to my dad's credit, I never heard it from him, but I knew it anyway.

I knew it based upon how I was treated.

And I also know that if you're if you have I had one other brother who was ahead of me and who also definitely fit the mold of all this.

But if you're not in that, it.

Can be just become a pressure, pressure cooker and anxiety laden experience.

That's just so like were your other two brothers did they fit the mold of like a really goody two shoes or like a really like embraced the role of preacher's kid.

Or were all three of you kind of in that same boat.

Well, since I'm the oldest, and my and my middle brother he probably felt a lot of it as well.

Yeah, but our youngest brother he got away with murder, and I mean, I mean, it's just it's by the time he was a teenager and stuff.

I don't think my mom cared anymore, you know how much.

He's only about five years old after this, But it's it's but that's a significant amount.

I mean, especially because by the time he was old enough to start rebelling, I guess rebelling meaning you know, just act like a normal kid, of course, preach your kid normal kid stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think my dad had been in doing this long enough, and my mom had been in there long enough to know how to react to these things.

Also, my grandmother was getting older and shows she slowly became less judgmental and more of just sort of set back.

And you know, that makes it thing.

So, how does this affect your faith?

So is your faith ever real to you as a kid, or is this always something that's tied to being anxiety or the complete clown show?

That is being a preacher's kid, especially in a Methodist church.

Uh.

You know, I think when I was young, I probably I did everything I was supposed to.

You know, you're supposed to love God and sing and do all that stuff.

But looking at it now, I don't think I ever had a relationship because I was always just pushed to do whatever I had to do.

So you know now, yeah, I mean, I it's it's it's kind of this is almost like the ending part, but there's a lot of things that happened in between.

But I think right now, yeah, I never had a relationship.

I was always just told this is what you do, this is how you act, and uh, you know, you don't really want to be there when you're when you're told to do that.

Yeah, I And in that way it is like your own little prison.

I know that sounds like a crazy metaphor, but you don't have it.

I did everything you listed, Joe, aside from acolyte we didn't do those down here in.

The South in a Baptist church.

But I did handbills.

What am I doing?

Like, I did use choir, I did all that stuff like I'm with you, and so it can easily if there's nothing that sparks you, it can easily feel like I have to do this just to get by.

I don't have a choice, which is a tough place to be.

Yeah, it was, And I don't want to make it sound like this is like wham, my mom and dad maybe go to church, because everybody's mom and dad makes you go to church.

But my mom and dad.

You know, I had to do everything, you know, I had to be where I had to be the kid that did everything, to be the one to inspire other kids to do things.

So you just don't want to do it after you know, when you when you turn eighteen, the last thing you want to do is to do the same thing.

So is that was that basically the long and short of it?

At eighteen you were like I'm done with this?

Or is there a few more tent poles.

When you There's a few things that led to that, Okay, you know one of the things that so when you're in the Methodist church, you go through confirmation when you're about thirteen years old.

Confirmation is when you become a member of the church.

You're you do a study with the pastor, who, of course is my dad so that's just awkward, you know, And you spend a year or so, you know, learning things and doing things, and then you basically in front of everybody on a Sunday morning, say I believe in God and I want to become a member of this church.

And so, you know, I became a member of the church.

And at that point, that's the downfall as a kid, because that's when you have to sit in this during church service the entire time.

So before you're thirteen, you got to go to like children's church or something.

Yeah, there's always like a youth thing in the like they Yeah, like before, I never heard my dad's sermons for years because it was almost I was hearing from I was four.

Yeah, we would be sent downstairs and there would be like a sort of a youth thing.

I don't know why they ever did it that way.

My dad's sermons was actually probably the more interesting part of the whole thing, because I'm not a singer.

I I you know, listening to the scripture over and over again that you hear every single year, that that to me, that always got boring.

But at least my dad's sermons were always you know, he always told stories and ye and and well a side note, I'm sure your dad probably did the same thing.

But you become part of those stories in the sermons.

Yeah, you know so many times I would hate here, like if someone would come up to me, Oh, your dad told this story and during a sermon about this and that, and I'm like, oh, great, yeah, thanks, my dad did.

I did become part of the stories.

My dad did a pretty good job of like making those veiled as much as he could.

But I definitely was.

There's no way around it.

I mean, you're I tell stories about my kids on the podcast that I host, So I there's there's no way.

There's a big part of your life, you know.

But yeah, you do, for better or worse, you become part of those yes.

Yes, so.

But so once I became a member of the church, you know, that's when you sit in church and you sit and listen to everything and you stay the whole time, and it's truthfully, for you know, twelve thirteen year old me, it was just kind of I was like, oh crap, now, now, what what did I do?

You know.

So one of the things that the church when this happened that we were at it was in a very rural area.

It was not the greatest place.

Like I thought it was great when I lived there, but in reality, looking back on it, I'm like, I'm so glad we got out of there because it was not it was not a good spot.

You know, the church with the parsonage.

We always lived in the parstonage, and the parsionage was always right was always right next to the church, so everybody knew where the minister lived.

Everybody, you know.

Can I tell you something, Joe, This is just a quick aside.

I lived in a Methodist parsonage for four months.

My dad got a job at the Baptist church.

The Methodist church was next door.

The parsonage was not in use while they were finishing our house.

The Methodist church let us stay in the parsonage right up the street from where we were building our house.

So I had a little bit of that experience right by the church, like literally walking distance from the church.

Yeah, and so, and because this was a rural area, people knew where my dad lived, right and of course you know, they stop and they ask for help all the time, like we saw, I saw and my dad helped everybody.

Like that was the good thing.

I always saw that about him, and I was always proud of him for doing that.

But it's also a scary freaking place, you know, yeah, because these people would show up and you're just looking at them and they're like, you are here to kill us, you know, like as a kid, I'm seeing this, and so you know, they would want to talk to my dad usually probably asked for my you know that kind of thing.

But anyways, the church that we were at, I know my dad tried to always whenever he was brought into a church.

He was always really good at bringing people together, starting youth groups, getting things started.

And I think that's why he got transferred a lot, because he was good at that.

Because then they would bring in another, you know, minister, hoping that that now that that church is up and running and doing well, you know, my dad can go help this church.

Yeah, And that's how that works for sure.

And so we were at this church for a few years and I would always hear my mom and dad talking, and I would witness my dad like just drinking Gaviscan like crazy, so I could I almost could tell that this was something was going on.

You know, he was not happy here.

And it turns out that you know, there's a there's a group of bishops or whoever that I don't remember the exact name of the of course, like the uh oh, yeah, it's just their group.

And they decided they didn't want my dad around anymore.

They wanted to have him.

They wanted to send, which is a lot easier in the Methodist church to accomplish in an a Baptist church.

Yeah, so I remember, I don't exactly know the exact reasoning.

My guess is that my dad is bringing in a lot of the people who lived around the church to come to the church, and that was not uh looked upon, uh in a nice way.

You know, a lot of the people who lived who came to this church lived miles and miles away from it, so they were not part of the small little town that I sat that I rode my bike around and stuff.

And you know, the people who lived around the church were not the ones that they wanted to to show up.

So I think that's kind of where that was going.

And so there was going to be vote, and the vote was of all the members to whether he to keep my dad here or to let him go.

And my parents wanted to stay for a while I don't know why, they probably should have just let us go away.

But I remember my mom came to me.

She goes, you're gonna we're gonna take you to this event tonight, and you're gonna have to vote yet to yes to keep your dad here.

How old are you?

Thirteen?

Wow?

Okay, so you just became a full fledged member.

And because I was a member, I could vote yes.

So I remember going to this and I have no reason understanding of what this is about.

And I'm witnessing some of these people that I know, Like my doctor is up there and he's talking shit about my dad, yeah, and about how he doesn't he thinks that it's not the teachings that my dad is doing, and what he's doing with the church is not great.

And I'm just like thinking to myself, I thought you were nice, you know, and I was tough for a kid years and you know, it turns out overwhelmingly my dad was kept.

There was very few people that said, you know, vocal minority, the vocal minority.

Yeah, So I you know, and I hadn't thought about that in years, and I was going to ask my parents about it, but I know that might bring up a lot of bad memories, so I didn't.

But you know, that's the one time I think my mom regretted doing something like that and forcing me to do to go vote.

Yeah, yeah, because.

I can see how she thought it would be the right thing, and also you were thirteen years old.

But also, yeah, that's a tough spot.

I remember some tense business meetings growing up.

Never like that, but I remember some tense ones for sure, and how awkward it was.

Uh, that's just part of the weird church politics.

For sure.

It's weird, and it's it's ugly and it's what And honestly, that's that's one of the reasons why I would never go to a church ever.

Again.

It's just how ugly the politics of churches and the way the people treat you.

Now that I mean, don't get me wrong, there was really nice people.

And there's some people that I still talk to that you know, I grew up with and that or that were older my parents' friends and stuff, and they're wonderful people and they're and they don't have this, we don't got this.

But there's that minority.

This is that minority of people that just ruins it for everybody.

Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you think it's the minority.

I will tell all the people that were actively like like deceptive and trying to ruin a pastor's life, it was definitely minority.

That's that is accurate.

I would agree because I.

Didn't like Usually there'd be people that didn't like my dad, and like I said, my dad kept that from me.

The swell of it was never enough to move anything.

It was, you know what I mean, Like it was such a small handful of people that almost always were around before my dad and did things a certain way and ran the same shop on the same street right by the church for as long as they can remember, and all that stuff.

So like, yeah, there's some people who just stuck in their ways.

They just want to do things the same way all the time and it doesn't matter, you know.

Yeah m hm.

So I you know, once after we moved away from that place, we moved to a place we were at for quite a while.

You know, this is where primarily where I grew up.

And so anybody that's knows who knows me know exactly what I'm talking about.

But that's when I became a teenager.

Yeah, that's when I started to.

I felt like there was always two versions of me that was, you know, Joe chur Church Joe, Church Joe and home Joe and church.

Joe was the kid who did everything, tried to make sure that my dad didn't look bad, you know, and made sure that I was I was not being judged, even though I probably was.

And then there was me at home.

At home.

My parents did not you know, enforce that kind of stuff on me, you know, my mom to this day, you know, I started listening to heavy metal music when I'm nice, Yes, I you know, I Christian heavy metal or just heavy metal.

Just it was heavy metal.

Let's I hear you and I've heard you guys, saw you and Brand talk about all these Christian bands, and I'm that that has never been part of my thing.

How old are you, Joe?

I am going to be fifty this year.

You don't look at I thought you were younger than me, legitimately thought you were younger than me.

That you I know that this is an audio only podcast, but you look like you're in your thirty or so.

First of all, congratulations, well, second of all, that makes sense.

Now the heavy metal Christian options available to you as a ten or twelve or thirteen year old were not what they were for me?

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean I started listening.

We had the hair metal yeah me in the mid eighties, so I would listen to that stuff.

And that stuff truthfully was the radio stuff, even though it's supposed to be you know, I know, the like the parents teacher, their parents' counsel that putting the stickers on that you know, for yeah, all that stuff they went after, Twisted Sister and all that kind of stuff.

That's like, guys, have you not heard of a band called Megadeth, Megadeth, Talica or Slayer?

You know, I discovered that stuff like in nineteen eighty seven, let's go, I was probably twelve, thirteen years old.

I started listening to that stuff secretly for a four.

Year old me would have told you you're going straight to hell.

So there's that.

And when my you know, my mom said, look, I know there's some bad words in these albums.

You know, just don't say them, you know, don't go around Sam.

That's very reasonable for her.

I mean, like a little weird that that's the thing to not do.

But but as from appearing in the eighties, there's a pastor's spouse, very a very reasonable take for mom there.

Yeah.

Yeah, well she grew up in the Beatles, and so the Beatles she was told, you know, don't listen to the Beatles and all that stuff.

So I'm I really believe my mom was just like, I see this same thing happening with your music that it happened of mine.

I may not like your Guns N' Roses album or you're a Master of Puppets, you know, but you clearly enjoy it.

You clearly get something out of it, and so that's when you start wearing the band T shirts and get it.

And so you know, it wasn't uncommon for you to see, you know, uh, the church preacher kid at a youth event trying to wear his Metallica T shirt.

I love it.

Yeah, but you're also a pastor's kid too, so man, yeah, I could have met like I would have, it would have been frowned upon.

I don't think my parents would have let me wear a Metallica T shirt any anywhere.

I don't think it would have been allowed by my parents, who were.

Really normal and still are rational human beings.

I don't think I could have gotten away with it.

There's no way.

Yeah.

Well I also this is when I started playing guitar, and when I started learning, you know, I taught myself I'm a I'm a guy that loves to play heavy metal.

That's how I learned.

So I was playing heavy metal.

I wanted to be in a band.

You know.

I had my own guitar that had a little speaker, you know in the guitar, and I would go around, you know, playing these the this stuff.

So I startly became oh, the preacher's kid, like the heavy metal music, red flag right there.

And so I had never heard I'm going to Hell.

You know, that's not in the Methodist Church.

Were not, but yeahthod just really lean into the good stuff by large, I mean they really do.

Yeah.

And I discovered that there are some people in the congregation that really believe that because I listened to, you know, a Megadeth album that I'm now going to Hell, and I had someone by me and I don't remember who.

I've been trying to wreck my brain.

Well, I actually liked I liked Striper because Striper had a good song.

But then when I started looking like bumble bees, like like no, yeah, no, there was a band it was called Rose.

He was a Christian metal band.

Someone handed it to me.

Now, the cover of this thing looked really cool.

I'm like, oh, this is awesome.

I was like I thought, and they said this is a band you should maybe listen to.

And I'm thinking to myself, okay, it's I put it in and it's like God is Love and blah blah blah blah.

And I'm like and I'm like, all right, look, I know that people love Christian music and and love it, but when you were a guy that loves heavy metal, the last thing you want is it's hard to fake that.

Like heavy metal is so very specific and musically inclined in a way that needs it to be authentic, Like you can't.

It's not like here's a Christian version of a pop song.

You know, Stryper got away with it because they were musicians first.

But but yeah, I've never heard of Rose.

I just looked them up right now.

I mean they that's a deep cut there.

Yeah, I don't know where it came from.

It's fat.

But they handed it to me and so I also started playing, you know, because I was playing guitar.

All of a sudden, they're like, oh, Joe, you could start playing the music at our youth you know.

He and I was like, well, you know, at least I could bring my guitar, so we'll go to youth camp because we went to youth camp every year.

And I said, I can bring my guitar.

I can at least play my you know, heavy metal off to the side.

But he started giving me, you know, songs to learn.

And this is where I think you'll you'll recognize it.

There's a song that I absolutely can't stand.

It is a Christian band guy bring name is Michael Michael W.

Smith.

If I ever hear him, if I ever hear him sing a Friend's a Friend forever that song again, he's a load of him.

Oh yes, I all the time.

Er yes.

I had to play that song over and over again, and on guitar too.

There's nothing to do.

Well I figured out how the chords wor it's because that's I was.

At least, if I'm going to have to be part of this youth group, if I'm going to have to do these youth services, at least I don't like singing.

At least I can play my guitar, you know, And it may not be songs that I love, but uh, it's better than It's better than doing that than singing or or something because I can go off to the side and say, I'm going to go practice this song for you know, Sundays.

Yeah, and then I'll just go play Metallica or something like that.

But you know, I did get a lot of That's when you know, the congregation really started getting to my parents and saying, you know, Joe should be probably listening to more Christian music, and and right then and there, I was like, this is a no go for me.

You know, this is this is where this is where we have to to decide whether or not Joe is going to be the good uh you know, you know, you preacher kid, or is he going to be the rebellious one.

Not to say I was probably the best kid out of half the people in my least rebellious.

Rebellious kid rebellious only because you didn't want to do exactly what you were told, not because you were really trying to be rage against the.

Machine, you know what I mean?

Yeah, Yeah, the hypocrisy is what really gets to me.

Because there was a woman who had a kid who was in our youth group.

This kid smoked.

This kid got in trouble all the time, and she would say things to people about, oh, that preacher kid there.

And my brother, my middle brother, was the same way as me.

He got into heavy metal just at the same time.

You know, although he looked really was he looked like a kid because and he would he would be wearing like Iron Maiden shirts and stuff like that.

And this is just the time of period, you know, this is what people did when you were my age.

And but it was so much of that.

And I remember once the big thing, the biggest event that happened for me, And this is where this is kind of like the event that really made me say I'm done.

I'm done being the good preacher kid.

I'm done being I don't want to be judged anymore.

I'm sick of it.

You know.

So I was eighteen, I went to college.

I went to a Methodist college.

Well, of course you did.

Yeah, you want to be done with it so bad you kept going.

Well, I also got half tuition off and a whole bunch of grants.

I mean, come on, basically pay for it.

Yeah, you know, I would have loved to have gone the Carnegie Melon, but I still would be paying off my tuition to stay.

So so I went to where I you know, I could afford it.

So I went to a Methodist college, West Virginia Wesleyan, West Virginia Wesleyan.

Shout out yes, shout out so u And so I would you know, I went to this and this is where I met preacher kids.

Yeah, this is where I finally met this variety of That is the other thing about it, I mean, interrupted this.

The other thing about being a preacher's kid that is so unique is unless your parents have other pastor friends, you are the only one like you.

Don't get to.

Meet a lot of other people like you, you know what I mean.

Yeah, it's exactly right.

I went into my dorm room and I had an awful roommate.

But that that's a that's a that's not even a story for this.

But the guy across the hall, the two guys on the other side, guy down down another hallway, all preacher kids, and I suddenly realized I was the goodie two shoes compared to these kids.

You know.

I realized that I was like, oh, I didn't have a life outside of youth group.

I didn't have you know, I did not go and dude, you would be the kids that.

Once again, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's just so there's like what you go through as a preacher's kid, your mental.

Health is hangs in the balance.

It takes a lot.

Like I'm thankful more as an adult for my parents than I ever was as a kid, because most preachers kids that I knew growing up, went off the rails and not in like a normal rum, spring away in a committed crimes way, you know what I mean.

And and like the there's a lot that's placed on you that is not good for the psyche of a developing brain.

It just isn't.

And so without proper mental health and monitoring that I'm sure you got there and all of a sudden, your Metallica T shirt seemed like it was just a cross of Jesus.

I'm sure it did.

It did.

Yeah.

The guy the first kid that I met the first day I was there.

You know, I'm meeting people, I'm trying to, you know, find a friend.

This is He's like, he's like, oh, I'm a preacher kid.

You know I'm here because I have to wish it off.

And he offers me a joint uh and and a beer.

And I'm like, oh my god, I've never had either one of these.

You said your dad was a pastor, and so I slowly came to realize that.

Yeah, I was like the goodye two shoes of my group.

In context is important, but let me tell you that first year, I grew my hair out long.

I I did.

I did not go to church.

How to feel, Joe.

It was.

It was the most amazing feeling.

Amazing.

Yeah, it was amazing.

And I had we even had you know, there was a there was a guy that was I don't think he was the pastor at that church that was on campus, but he was a guy that that knew my dad.

And so he came over and he says, we haven't seen you at church yet this year.

And I said, well, I said, I'm very busy on Sunday morning.

That's what were you doing on Sunday mornings, Joe?

Sleeping?

No?

I I actually probably was in the art department because.

Oh, you know, I know, getting work him this guy.

So yeah, I mean I was doing my you know, my school work.

I went to a Bible college.

Uh.

And that you were required to go to church on Sunday and I didn't go, and I said, I went to Bedside Baptist with Reverend Sheets.

That was the joke I told.

I thought it was funny.

I think it's funny.

Yeah.

But so my first year in college, you know, I did take up some smoking, you know, cigarettes, but you know what your fleet, I don't think I actually really ever liked it.

I think I was just doing it.

You cry.

Yeah, And so when I remember, my dad called me once and he goes.

He says, oh, you know, there was a Bible camp that we went to all the time, and he said, the youth group is going this weekend.

Now all my friends were in the youth group, you know.

And so I was like, okay, he says to you, if you come home this weekend, you can go there and at lease see your friends.

And I'm like, I'm eighteen.

I could do what I've won.

I don't have to.

I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not the kid.

I'm not that kid anymore.

So I said, okay, you know, why not?

So I head home.

But before that, I had to go pick up the new Slayer album.

Yeah.

Of course, of course, because it came out with heavy metal music back then was a huge priority for me.

So I picked that album up and I went up to the camp.

And I remember because the youth leaders who used to be part of that had changed, uh that when I when I when I was a kid, and so they were different people.

I knew who they were, and they were fine.

They weren't awful people.

But they said, oh, we have a special guest, and I'm like, okay, that's fine.

So they had a speaker that they wanted to come and talk to all of us kids.

And this guy was a former drug addict, former alcoholic.

They all are, man, all those special speakers are for He was a motorcycle in a motorcycle gang, and now that now is you know, is a Christian motorcycle gang.

And he recently discovered God about six months ago.

So of course, why wouldn't you become a speaker after six months of finding God.

That's how it works, man.

And I looked at this guy, I'm like, this guy's crazy.

Why are we, like, you know, why are we bringing this guy here?

Now, My dad had nothing to do with any of this.

He let he always let the people who was in charge of the youth group to make decisions and do things.

He stepped back.

He would attend things if they asked, but he would always he always made sure that things were running properly, but he was not.

He didn't want to be the guy that was involved in all these things.

So this guy was always talking about, you know, going to hell and stuff like things that we would never things that I hear you.

Yeah, oh, I'm sure it was.

I wish I knew who he was.

I would love to look him up because I would love to see what he's doing now.

Dude.

I feel like all those those descriptors are things that I've heard from even motorcycle gang or things that I heard from different speakers.

And I always knew when my dad wasn't thrilled with the speaker that we got to Always he didn't tell me, but I always I could.

I could was pretty good at reading somebody way.

Yeah.

So I was at this, you know, we were at camp and I was listening to him talk and I'm I'm rolling my eyes.

I can just I know that this is not something that I regret coming yes weekend and my brother like is looking at me, like, what what the hell?

This is not?

What are we doing this is not what youth because truthfully, youth camp is where you misbehave you know, you try to get away with things and you try to do things and you have fun.

It's mindless.

It's believe me, in the long run, I look back on it's the most it's the most innocent thing.

We are stupid, yeah, but it's it's where you try to be a little bit rebellious.

So this guy was constantly talking about his senses that someone at this camp has not found God his but he and the Devil was speaking through them, and I'm like, so, I'm like, I'm looking around, well, I'm on it.

So we're sitting at a service and he's talking and he's like, there's someone in this group here and the Devil was talking through him.

And I was like, I'm like, oh, I'm looking around, like who is this?

And he pulls out my Slare CD which me had it on stage with him.

Somebody went through bags.

He went through my bag.

Oh my god, are you serious?

And he held it up and he goes, Joe this bultable, Yeah he has this.

He has a he had this in his bag.

Look at this cover.

Now I still have the CD.

You're gonna show me now, and this is it?

Oh my god, it is U Slayers Divine Intervention.

It is.

It's got a pentagram on it, you know, because and it's got the rental advisory.

Uh.

So you go to this thing voluntarily as an eighteen year old, and this guy goes through your luggage, finds the Slayer CD and then pulls it out on stage.

Yes, in front of everybody, all of my friends, my dad, Now, my parents weren't there, so it was just my brother and I myself.

Well how many kids are talking?

Twenty?

Okay, well this is this is like, Oh, how pissed were you?

What was your reaction?

Well, at first I was like, holy crap, where'd you get that CD?

Like, yeah, I brought it.

You're not supposed to bring this kind of stuff to it, But I was.

I stopped on the way.

You're eighteen, Yeah, you know.

I may have listened to it while I was there.

I don't know, how do How does it rank in the Slayer canon?

It's kind of crappy.

Okay, so at least you got it?

Yeah, yeah, and uh it's not their best one.

But I was I was like, oh my god, and he goes I want you to come up and talk and stand in front of us, and he goes, do you love God?

Goodness?

Now I'm looking around and I know I see a bunch of congregation people that you know come to this come come to this youth group because either hey, their parents or their you know, ex additional advisors.

And I'm like, I have to be the good Christian.

You don't have a choice.

And so, you know, I answered all the questions the way he wanted and he says, well, why do you have this CD?

And I said, truthfully, I just like the music.

Yeah, yeah, you know, the only true you could give there.

And he's like that, He's like, well, I think we need to talk.

Well we'll we'll talk about you some more.

But I feel like you've we've saved you today.

We've called we've called you out.

You've made you realize that, you know, the Devil's music of what you're listening to is not is not good.

All this kind of stuff I'm paraphrasing because I'm sure there's probably a lot more.

And it ended and I was pissed.

Oh I was, as I would be too.

So I go outside and I'm just I'm fuming and he comes out and he says, I'm going to destroy this.

I said, no, it's yours.

I grabbed it.

I said, I grabbed it.

And he put his hand on my head and I had never heard anybody do it before, but he started speaking in tongues.

This is fucking wild, even even by by evangelical circles.

This is crazy what this was happening here?

Yeah, And so there was a woman who was was there was as she saw this happening, and she said, I think it's time for you to go and the guy and like I want, I left.

Oh, she stood up for you, or she said it's time for you to go, Joe to go, Yeah, for me to go, because she realized that this guy was being a nut.

Okay, So she was helping you by getting you out of there, okay.

And so I left, you know, I went home.

My dad the something.

They called my dad to let him know what happened, and uh, what was his dadon?

He goes, so was that interesting?

And I said, I said, And I said to him, I said, well you know what he did, and he goes, yeah.

He says, I'm not thrilled with that speaker.

I've actually said that we cannot.

I need to.

I want to be a little bit more involved with the speakers and who they pick from now on.

And I said to him, and I've never said anything like this to him my dad before.

And I said, I'm not being that kid anymore.

You know, I'm not.

I'm not going to be I'm going to be me.

I'm not gonna you know, I said, if you get judged because you don't, someone doesn't like you, but I'm an adult.

You know, how did he take that?

Because you got two younger brothers who were still He was fine with it.

He had for him.

He sounds like a really good dad.

He is, he really is, you know.

He was we never you know, I never really had conversations about God or anything with him other than whenever we would be in in confirmation and stuff like that.

Of course.

But after that, my middle brother, who was also in the youth group, he never went back.

Oh and he was still underage, like he was still he was, he was in eleventh grade.

So at this point that's my parents had started, you know, slowly, like you know, we got to let these kids be there, be themselves.

But this is like a full firm break for you.

I mean, this is this?

Is it?

Like you?

That was?

That was it?

That was the time and I finally said, I'm not going to be I'm not going to be that preacher kid that has that expectations of you know, I have to be a good, good kid, good Christian boy.

If I want to go do something, I'm going to go do it.

And it's my call on whether or not, you know, if you know God loves me or whatever you know.

I mean, I think that was the thing.

And don't get me wrong, there are times that I'm still wondering, you know, what people think, you know, and how they'll react.

And it's always been I still live with it.

So you I got yeah, I mean, had you had eighteen years of it where it was You're being watched every time.

I the two things I will tell you that even from a pastor's kids perspective of someone who always ended up making the grade and being like it favoring me a lot in my life and made my life easier, there isn't always an imposter syndrome of am I really?

You know how many times I thought growing up, am I really doing this for the right reason?

Or because this is who I am?

Or because who I'm perceived to be.

Also the feeling that you're always being watched.

When I went to school in church, by the time I was in high school, I just assumed I was being watched twenty four to seven, that people were on me, and it was it was incumbent upon me to not not only.

Do the thing correctly, but to do it with.

Style, not like style of what I wore, but like, do it with a Christian flair.

And I manipulated that very well as a and I'm a I was already tall, and so for me, like, I just assumed I was being watched, and I knew how to manipulate that pretty well.

But looking back, that's a really terrible thing to make.

It to incept in your brain that you're not sure why you're doing something and that you're always being watched.

Those are both very dangerous.

It takes a long time for you to realize who you really are and to act accordingly.

So you then have now thirty two years of experience on the back end of that.

Do you feel more I would hope, do you feel more comfortable and at peace with who you are now in that journey than you did when you were twenty.

You know, uh, for the most part.

Yeah.

Like even I'll give you an example.

I got my first tattoo four years ago.

Hey, congratulations, uh.

And the first thing that came to my mind is like, oh, I wonder what my dad's going to think.

He seems like he's reasonable.

My dad looked at it.

I was like, okay, yeah, and my mom was like, oh, that looks really nice.

And I was shocked, you know.

I mean, I shouldn't be, but you know, in my head, I was like, oh, they're going to be disappointed in me, because that's what a preacher kid doesn't And and I still can't get that out of my head.

And I still do that.

And I feel like sometimes I feel like I do that with my kid and everything.

You know, I have four tattoos now, so it shows you're a real rebel.

Well, and here's another thing.

Are any of them visible if you're just like, if you're walking down the street, are any of them visible?

Or are they like on your Oh look at that, Oh that's a snake.

That's fantastic.

Look at this guy.

This is well, here's here's the thing.

This is the uh, this is the dark mark from Harry Potter.

So this basically from Harry Potter, got it?

This would be you know, dude.

I am currently reading those books to my children, and I am in the chapter in Goblet of Fire titled the Dark Mark, so I get the feeling we're about to get there.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's how you call Voldemort.

You know you got that tattooed on your on your forearm.

What a badass move, Joe.

Yeah, well I have a I got a Darth Vader tattoo and and uh and a Christmas uh Charlie Brown tattoo on my other legs.

When Christmas, Charlie Brown and dark?

How you call Voldemort?

You're like, listen, I'm gonna do me and this is me, you know what I mean?

Well, here's here's here's the thing in My mother, who is seventy eight years old, just got a tattoo.

Yes she did.

Let's go Joe's mom.

Absolutely, and I have learned all sorts of stories about how my mom's I mean, there's probably I could probably tell you a dozen stories about things that my mom did because she got sick of hearing, you know, about from the congregation about things that they're doing wrong or things that she should be doing.

I think she slowly she played played the part first and then just said whatever you know, yeah by the end, you know.

I mean, my dad retired about fifteen years ago, so they've she's not been they've not been doing any of that stuff for a long time.

He goes to church, but he can't, of course, go to any of the churches he's gone to.

Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, but he goes to church and stuff, but yeah, it's not it's completely different.

So do you ever get into spiritual or theological conversations with your parents or this is just not something you do anymore at fifty and there's nothing you do.

Ye, no, Yeah, it's just like a both sides are love each other very much and are both just perfectly content to not Yeah.

I mean for years, my dad would say you go to church on Sunday?

Did you go to church on Sunday?

And I'd be like, nope, yeah I did not.

As moved on.

We just kept going yeah.

And I mean, believe me, there's a whole other story of my kid and everything about that and how we had to deal with those old she's sixteen.

Okay, So would you when you were clearly when you raised her, you guys didn't go to church.

Uh, well, no that I don't know how much longer you want to talk.

But well we are a little bit up against it just because we because of me, my fault.

So but I do want to hear a lot like people go to church because of their kids.

That's something that they do that is not uncommon.

You.

I knew those folks growing up.

I didn't realize it when I was a kid that that's what they were doing.

I know them now, And there's something about giving your kid hope, even if it's false hope, or even if it's wrong hope that people do.

Did you is that something you did with your kid?

I did not.

My wife did.

I married.

I married a Catholic.

She has the guilt more than anyone I've.

Didn't feel guilty when you stop going to church.

You're like, oh no, well god o, wow, I did I think maybe, But you know, at this point, I'm like, I know what, I'm fine with it.

But she had the Catholic guilt.

She also was not marrying a Catholic, so we could not get married in the Catholic church.

And so you know, we got married.

My dad married us in a Methodist church.

He found a pastor that would do it, and I was happy about that because this person knows you who it can tell you, you know.

So that was all great.

But because my wife got married in the Methodist church, she was no longer considered in good standing.

That's some bullshit, Listen.

I know we do a lot on this show, but like, if it's really about loving God and loving others, what is all this stuff.

It's just like, you can't be one of us if you got married in a different church.

Why.

I don't understand, And I truthfully, I think she just she At that point, my wife said okay, I'm done with it until we were going to have a baby.

Yeah, and she's like, I would like to take our daughter to Catholic church.

And I said, look, I'm fine with it.

But if she ever says I don't want to do this, I don't believe or whatever, I'm going to interfere and say no, I think that's a fair agreement.

Yeah.

So we did that, but before she could go, my wife had to get back in good standing.

So I actually had to attend.

I attended this meeting with a priest and they said we're going to remarry you, not at in front of the altar or anything, but just like an off to the side.

Well, she'll get married in the Catholic church and then she'll be in good standing.

And I said, well, so then that's the marriage you consider, right, Like that's the wedding you know we got married.

This was like three or four years after we had been married.

And they said, yeah, that's the one we would recognize.

I said, nope, not doing it.

I said, the one that you should recognize is the one that we had.

That's right, yeah, and uh I And he goes, well, you don't want to do this for your wife and I said, I'm not doing that.

And that was fine with it too.

She was like, you know, it's important for you.

I was standing up for it.

But when they found out that she was pregnant and wanted to bring the kid, I was forgiven, because you're gonna you're gonna bring her to the car.

We won, We won this, Yeah, so you know what, you're in good standing and so like all of that.

Eventually, you know, you know, I'll love my daughter's story is her own story.

But good for you.

That's a really good answer.

Does she go now just to yes or no.

But I don't want to.

Okay, got it?

And neither does my wife, So you know, and there's things, there's reasons why, but her, she's probably gonna story just as as I do The Slayer CD.

You know what I mean.

I wish I could get her.

I wish I could get her to listen to this kid born in two thousand and nine who's like, man, The Slayer CD is awesome.

Yeah, that's not happening unfortunately.

But and again, like I said, I don't I'm hoping people don't hear this and go, oh man, I had to go to church, but you know, when you're just forced to do it, and you're forced into a role, I don't think you.

I I wonder how it would be if my dad wasn't a minister Ye church, what do you?

I I just to like, you know, because this is all on.

Some of these stories are just unbelievable, and some of them are very much near and dear to my experience.

What is your It doesn't seem like you have any sort of struggle or dialogue with faith now.

It just seems like that's just not that's just in your rear view all like, do you believe there's anything bigger than us?

Or are you just like a the dirt is it?

Man?

Like?

This is it?

This is there's there's nothing bigger.

It all happened by chain and when we die, that's it.

You know.

I'd love to believe that, but believe that I would love to.

Yeah, I wish, but part of me it just kind of goes that's it, you know, and I and I I sadly that's where I'm at.

Yeah, I mean I don't think that's sad.

If you're if that's something that that you know is part of who you are.

I think that that you live, you you have this infinity, this you know what we do now like you know in Gladiator they say what you do now echoes in eternity, And that's true.

That's true regardless of if you think the dirt is it or if you think there is an eternity afterlife, like what you do now in this infinity matters.

I think that that's great.

I think you can celebrate that even if you think there's nothing after right, I don't think you know, you.

Know, for me, as long as I'm happy.

Joyful, absolutely, and I love that.

Yeah, and I think that's admirable, especially considering your childhood.

Yes, Joe, this has been so much fun.

We got to just hang out and talk pastors kids' stories.

But thanks for sharing your experience and your stories with.

Me this week.

Oh thank you.

I can't thank Joe enough for joining me this week as a fellow pastor's kid.

I really felt like I could sympathize with Joe's upbringing while my version of being a pastor's kid involved leaning in a lot more to the faith instead of just getting by when it came to the performative nature of the role, Joe and I are definitely kindred spirits.

I think the reason pastors kids are really any kids that grow up in a sort of spotlight because of the leadership role of their parents can easily find themselves lost as adults is because they never had the opportunity to establish an identity for themselves.

An identity was placed on them from the time they were born.

Some kids embrace that spotlight, some kids rebel, and some kids just power through until they can do it their own way, regardless of which they choose.

I think it can easily be unhealthy, especially since most kids just want their parents to be proud of them, and so it's a natural instinct to find a way to meet that standard, even if it doesn't feel right.

I left our conversation thankful for Joe and his new normal, and also incredibly thankful for my own upbringing, where even though church was more often than not an overly important performative gesture in my household, I was nevertheless given the freedom to figure out who I was and what my likes and dislikes were.

I think the thing that Joe wants to do for his family is give them something that he didn't necessarily have growing up, agency, because Joe's identity was always tied to his dad's occupation.

Joe clearly is protective of his own child, wanting their story to be just that, their story.

The idea of a parent being a guiding force and not a decision maker when it comes to their child's passions and gifts, well, it's inspiring, not only because it's what I want for my kids, but also because it represents a shift from the fish bowl in which Joe and myself swam in as kids.

Joe has become his own and is playing a part in providing that same opportunity for his kid, and that's something to be proud of.

Thanks for listening.

Breakfast and Hell is produced by Will Cown.

It's written and hosted by Daniel Thompson.

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