Yeah, just devastation four.

You know, obviously myself, but all the other players that were essentially innocent, and then, as I said, they get you on a technicality that you weren't aware of, that's not even proven and you think, oh.

Well, I'm John Ralph and I'm Glenn McFarlane.

Welcome to Sacked, a podcast that explores what really happens when the ax falls in the AFL world.

Will take you behind the scenes with some of the biggest names in football and find out how they found out their time was up and who pulled the trigger.

Stuart Kramer's AFL career deserved more than just over one hundred games across three clubs, but injury and a year out of the game due to the Essendon drug saga took its toll on the big kid from Mary Burrough who had to fight to even play in the big time And really did any of Essendon's thirty four lose more than Cramrie due to the band Yes, Joe Watson was stripped of a Brown Low, but Cramery was forced to watch his by then Bulldog's teammates win a fairytale flag.

In twenty sixteen, Stuey Kramrie.

Thank you for joining us on the Sack podcast.

Thank you, Ralphie.

Thanks finally got me on the show.

Yeah, so a country boy made good three AFL club Some highs, some lows.

What do you think about when the head hits the plo about the soaring highs or some of the stetbacks of a pretty cool AFL career.

Yeah, I think I think the career is probably contrasting.

I think, you know, I had a really good start.

The essendence stuff was probably you know, a bit of a low.

Not not my fault.

I don't think that's the stick, but I think, you know, people like talking about it, but that's understandable.

But yeah, it is very contrasting.

And you're one of the Essendon thirty four.

Obviously we'll go into detail.

How much of that saga defines your footy career.

Is it something that's just part of your journey.

I think it defines a football career, you know, greatly.

I think, you know, there's other ones that missed out with things like Joe Watson and you know, got to think of those guys who miss Brownlow and I missed the Grand Final.

But you know that's I think It's just part of my journey and I'm happy to talk about it now.

And it's been over ten years and you know, glad to move on from it.

But if someone can get something out of it, you know, from what happened, maybe that's a positive.

How often you get reminded of it?

Is it a daily occurrence?

Is it something that pops into your head?

It's you know, you're obviously pretty sanguin, pretty relaxed about a great foota career.

I get reminded it probably once a month.

Yeah, someone will speak to you.

Yeah, someone will speak to me.

So someone you know, want to talk or they will recognize me and they want to talk about it.

But you know, I think they're coming from a passionate point of view of it as an Essence supporter purely, So it's not something that they think I've done something wrong, although the other guys did something wrong.

Yeah, and I suppose you feel for those Essident supporters who've gone through a hell of a lot in that journey as well.

Yeah, yeah, they're not having much success, but look, I all we want to do is do our best.

Yeah, it was just an unfortunate situation.

I guess we'll escape goats.

In the end, Raily, let's go back to a bit of aut care free existence when you growing up in marybarr And, you know, playing junior footing, and it was it right that you played in your brother's team when you were eight and it was under thirteens.

You're obviously a big kid for a start.

Yeah, they used to call me the tank.

The tank.

I think Dad liked it because he had to just go to one game and I said, yeah, I'm happy to play.

So first couple of games, I've got a few goals, but I was vastly smaller than the rest of the players.

But look that really helped me going forward and playing against better opposition.

So Mary Burrow a couple of rejections early on.

Take us through those first few years you played Maryborough seniors, you got to Ben and Obama's reserves.

It's a been a hard slog.

Though, Yeah, there was, and I think you build a resilience over the years and that helped me when I did get to Estenon.

But I was really determined to try and make sure that I do play AFL.

And you know a lot of people say, look, it's going to be too hard and I said, that's your opinion, but I think the setbacks really helped me going forward and starting from country football into the VFL too, and then VFL and then AFL.

Look, it was a good journey.

It was my journey, and I wouldn't have done any.

Other way, just with those setbacks and missing out on REP teams and under eighteen's teams, and that clearly built the resilience that you were going to need later in your career.

Did you ever think I'm not going to get there or were you just implicit in your mind this is going to be my journey.

I didn't waver too much, and I just knew that I had the talent.

I just didn't probably have the skill set just yet.

And the more I played and played VFL and I started to learn from coaches like Adrian Hickmant, Matthew Knights and a few of those ones, I started to develop my skills a bit better and hone in on that.

You know, and a few coaches used to say I was very raw, but as I sort of fixed those things up, I was.

Able to play a little bit better.

So Essenon's VFL side was the Benny Obamas, Is that right?

That was correct.

So you obviously had.

When did that AFL dream start, but you also had an entry point for that as well, given it was how far away from your hometown?

Yeah, forty five minutes from my hometown.

So I was traveling four times a week while working full time with my dad, and I just I.

Didn't see any other way.

I really liked football.

I love the training aspect of it and the team and the team aspect, and.

I just I just believe from day one I could go.

I just had his mindset if I can just go as hard as I can, as long as I can, you know, I don't know what's going to happen, but if something does, well great.

So what kind of football were you?

So?

Raw booming, left foot the tank as you said, Yeah, but maybe lacked a bit of football house at that stage.

Yeah, just football knowledge and that that showed early in my AFL career.

But I did I try and fix that, but it was more raw power.

You know.

I used to do track, I used to go to the gym a lot, and so I sort of combined all that with Also I was a forward as a as a kid, so just having that now surround the forward line was probably the key in the end.

You talked about Nider and Adrian Hickman and the like, who else sort of helped shape you in those years because they had the chance to pick you up eston early doors and left it a while, didn't they.

Yeah, they left it another year and that was a bit hard to take that rejection.

But I didn't give up.

And I think Matthew Knights ended up getting sacked at the end of two thousand and nine or ten, sorry, and James Hurd and Brendan mccountany came in and really took me under my out their wing.

And what Brendan said was, you're not a midfielder, You're actually a forward.

Here, come with me, And I said, well, I played all juniors forward.

It sort of worked out and clicked because.

You got on the rookie draft I think two thousand and nine, just a couple of days before Christmas.

I think it was you played the three games under Matthew Knights.

Were you more you were playing midfield in those three games or a bit of that.

Because of the running capabilities I had, they thought I was a midfielder and I did an okay job, but not great, and I was probably probably lucky to stay there, and it was fortunate enough that Hurdy kept a lot of players from the previous year.

Otherwise I think I would have probably finished at the end of that year.

But you know, fate has it that I got another chance and put it in a solid preseason and got a game.

Maccadale's ever said this about me, as Adrian Hickmott said he was an amazing specimen half a step back.

So that's an actual quote to Melbourne though.

So there was a time where you were, you know, driving down four nights a week.

He decided I'd actually got to quit myself full time, so you were staying in a motel.

You were at a boxing gym as well.

Take us through how that happened and why you thought that was so important.

Halfway through the year, my football was really declining.

I was getting tired.

It was you know, middle of winter as it happens, and Adrian said, look, you need to move down and like Essenmon's Monto back in the day, whatever it takes to try and get the best out of yourself.

And I said, right, okay, I'll take six months, I'll go down and I'll train full time.

I'm not full time.

I'm not a full time football yet, but I'll train for ye, so that helped him.

By the end of the season, I managed a few best on grounds and then I finally got drafted from that, so it did work.

But it was an interesting experience in the hostel.

Well, I was going to say, Ralphie's used to staying in five star accommodation wherever he goes.

What do you get for it?

Back then, what do you get for twenty dollars a night at hostel is like a prison type?

It was forty dollars a night and I was forty, so it was terrible.

Yeah, and you weren't really earning any money at the time.

Obviously your dad was probably looking after at that stage, and he obviously believed in you enough that you can go somewhere with your career.

Yeah, Mum and dad both supported me in the journey.

And look, I was working full time and I had a little bit of money, not much, and I just wanted to get down there and just try and pretend I was a footballer, just to get into the swing of it.

But it was a very interesting experience.

You know, shared TVs and shared things and look, it was at the stage where I said I didn't care what I was doing as long as I was trying to progress and get better.

What was what was the rookie list?

Like, you know at that stage there?

I mean now it's sort of you know, you can play games immediately and you know you're very much part of the club.

But did you feel not on the out of there, but did you feel like you'd still made it?

Or was the primary listing the the you know, the crowning achievements.

Look, the contract was pretty terrible, to be honest.

Would have thirty grand.

Thirty grand, yes, so that's you know you signed that off.

That's okay.

But yeah, you do have a little bit of friction.

Yes, you're a rookie and you were treated a little bit different than you would be now, I think because you're not.

A part of the list.

But you end up doing everything as a list player does.

So you've got to work through that.

And yeah, there was a few battles with players and then again you're building a character to be a better player.

What do you mean by battles with players internally externally.

You know, on the field or a bit of banter.

Yeah, you've just got to get through that boys will be boys.

Yeah, you're only on rookie kind of thing or maybe like that.

And did you feel welcome though, did youson?

Did you feel welcome in that initially?

Probably not?

No, you know that's okay.

It was a kid from the country, Yeah, and it was an unknown resource.

On the taps I did.

I just I've come from nowhere, so I sort of had to prove myself, which is okay, and that's what I did.

And to play your first game against Collingwood, I think it was around twenty Matthew Knights's coach.

What are your recollections that day you've had I think you were twenty two round about twenty two at the time.

You had seventeen disposals, so you've walked in and had a pretty reasonable game first up, Yeah, and we.

Lost pretty badly.

And I think I lined up on Dane Swan and Scott Penalbury in the first first bounce and I thinking, okay, right, let's do this.

But I got the first touch and we got a goal from a bit.

From then on they were too classy and look, I learned a lot from you know, Daisy Thomas, Scott and Dane Swan that night, and I thought, Okay, that's that's what it's about.

You there at the top of their game.

That's what I'm going to have to get to to be relevant in this game.

So it was a big eye opener.

And obviously I was playing the wrong position, so I was playing.

But to play prime Collingwood, you know, to play a massive like that, and you're thinking, this is everything that I've ever dreamed of and here on the big stage.

Like how satisfying was that?

It was good?

It was quite nerve wracking, you know, there was sixty plus thousand and you sort of get out there and you go, oh, should I be out here?

But and you work out, oh, I can't.

Do this now anymore, like you're in the BFL.

I've got to change my game style a little bit.

But it's quite rewarding after you know, it was about three or four year journey trying to get there, but disappointing.

Nice.

Yeah, they just.

Absolutely smash Obviously the arrival of the prodigal Son.

James heard it was one of the biggest stories in town.

Comes in.

What's your first conversation with James Hurd first.

Conversation, I think I did one thing wrong.

We had to do a test and I did it wrong and he told me off, and I.

Thought, oh okay, here were Darious and you know.

I still wasn't nobody then and he borrowed me once and I said, okay, you'll never do that again.

So you know, we got along really well.

And it was I that was an eye opener for me, and ye, serious, what did you do wrong?

You have to do a urine test and it was above the required range and you know, just by one.

And yeah, he told me of okay, and what's so what did that signify?

Though?

Well, maybe he's.

Come and bring some standards and and that kind of thing with so maybe maybe I got to be serious maybe And then yeah, he pulled me in the line, and so did Macha, and I think Hurd he told me off once.

Maka told me off once, and he said, and they didn't tell me off again.

He can tie off with the best Maca Cantey as well.

But it was really a dream team, wasn't it.

There Bomber comes in and Hurdy and Maca.

The standards just completely changed in that sense from.

Yeah, and you got a sense from the two thousand Grand Final that team.

You got to you got to feel of that.

They brought that into the club and it was not serious.

We definitely had some fun, but when we trained will definitely we'll switched on.

And I think I got the most out of that.

Us about Bomber and just the little things that at sen and club legend and of course couple of multiple time geelong coach.

What did he bring as well?

Because he's quirky, but he's an extraordinary quirky Yeah, understatement.

I think he didn't talk to the group as much, but he was more I think Hurdie's mentor, so he wasn't sort of our direct coach, so our interactions weren't massive.

But that's probably my take on ituirky.

And who was the person that said you're not a midfielder, Dewey, we want you to play forward.

Was there one person that was there a decision there that that was made internally that.

Yeah, I think Brenda McCartney.

Obviously.

I addressed that straight away and he said I think you're a forward because he was the forward line coach and I said, no worries, I can play forward.

He was okay, we'll show me, so he'd throw me the ball and I'd say, right, what do you want to do?

Goes right, Will and kick it from fifty Okay, there you go.

He was okay, great, okay, now market turn do it the same thing and he and he really pushed me on that way, and I said, well I can do all that, and he goes, great, you're a forward and you're going to start forward and you're going to start the round one.

So I said, great, this is a dream come true.

So that's just confidence all of a sudden, You're not worrying about your spot.

You're thinking I've got a roll here.

Yeah.

Yeah, and they believe in me.

Yeah.

And this is the first time in my whole career that I've actually now I mean a senior team in the AFL and I can actually help the team win.

So it was a great feeling.

Is that it just seems so simple.

You're a forward, right, I't go and do it.

But that's the essence of coaching.

It is it is, And he picks up those saddle things.

I think the year prior, maybe we're lacking in the midfield space.

And if I can run fifteen sixteen k's, I said, well, you're definitely a midfielder.

But how about I play forward.

I'll probably run less, but I'll be faster.

So it's just an adjustment.

And from that moment on, you really make that position your own.

You kick four goals on Anzac Day.

What's that like?

I know you lost the game, Yeah, but you were clearly evidence best player on the day and kick four goal.

Strong good traveling Again, it's not big.

Is still telling Tremor having the game of his life?

Yeah, I think my life really changed from that point on.

That was the switch.

That was Yeah, and and sort of everyone everyone knew who I was after that day and you know that that's okay.

But I felt like in that game I could sort of do what I wanted and you know, really free enough to kick those goals.

And I don't know, I might have missed a couple as well.

But end Zac Day is a special day with you know, the crowd, the moment, the build up, you know, ninety thousand plus and you sort of just you live and breathing.

This is so good and you really enjoy the experience.

How does your life change as an AFL footballer after a game like that?

We number one year contract, which is which is a great thing, isn't it.

They you talk about that, but just being recognized, you know, throughout the on the street or whether the Bombers supporters, which look, it's a good part of football, but it also has its downsides.

But at that time it was okay.

So with the contract, do they help you out straight away?

Because I think there had to be a couple of injuries to keep you playing there, but they did have some that year and there was some suggestion.

Did Hurdie say we need to keep Cramery?

Was there any interest from the Giants?

Did they come did a couple of clubs come knocking even early doors?

I'm not sure I comment on that, but maybe yeah, I know, but I think hurdy just wanted to sew it out.

But I remember I think he went on radio and said, look, every game he plays, but don't sign he goes up another ten's.

Right, That's exactly what he said, which which is good for you because you're not on a lot anyway.

Yeah, yeah, I was.

Yeah, I was probably hoping for match payments and things, but look, and I never did it for money, and it was always about the football and I was just fortunate enough to get a contract at then AFL club.

That's a great quote, Ralphie.

This is from James Hurd on radio.

I'm hoping Paul Hamilton's listening.

It's almost done.

I think every time we play he's costing us another ten grand.

Not bad.

So twenty games, thirty four goals, you have arrived as an NFL footballer.

Yeah, yeah, it was good.

And I'd won a few gulking awards after that, and.

Three in a row.

You end up winning at Essendon, which is big effort, isn't it.

Oh?

I guess so they went.

You know, thirty goals is not massive, but you know, Cloky, I think it was kicking in the sixties.

So eighths and the best affairs.

I think you got a shoulder recast.

You missed the final, miss what would have been one of your rare finals, obviously shattering.

Yeah it was.

It was I was playing well and I remember I hurt my shoulder at West Coast late in the game and my shoulder collapsed and it was quite painful.

But we had a final against Carton and we didn't do that well.

And Jake Carla was up forward and he was a backman at stage and he went forward and he's just you know, I wish I played that game, but I was just yeah, I was done for the year.

But twenty games for that sort of my first real season was a great hit out.

And what did you sign on a contract with the two year contract?

Did you sign a couple of two years or did you sign a four year?

I think I signed a two year deal.

Yeah, And then then Brenda McCartney went to Western Bulldogs and then he then decided to offer me another contract to cross over, so which I initially declined.

But the way the essence supplement saga was going, I was keen to get out of there.

So the first you would added the first nine games of twenty twelve, there was some kind of supplement saga, you know, take us through when you first heard about we're going to do something a bit different.

Of course, it's all within the rules, but this is what we want you to sign up for.

Well, essentially, you know, I was twenty two to twenty three, and I'll tell you what.

We did not blink an eye, and it was just a part of the training regime and we wanted to try and get the best out of ourselves.

So we believed in what they were telling us, and we said, yes, we'll do that and anyway, move on, We'll continue to train and continue to play.

So it wasn't really a massive discussion.

Wasn't even something dramatic At some stage there, I think the players got the club doctor to sign a document to say this is all above board.

But when it all started initially, you like didn't even as you say a blink, an I know, and.

These things happen in the in clubs all the time, where they might you might sign a waiver for someone doing a study for a university course and you do a sleep study, so you've got to sign off some paperwork.

You sign that paperwork and you go yep, and you go on to training.

You think about something else.

And the program itself wasn't you know, we didn't talk about it too much, but it just happened and we just went on with our day.

Yeah, with that, like you do you remember Stephen Dank being there was only there for a short period of time.

What sort of connection did you have with Stephen Dank?

Connection the same as you have with a sports scientist or the high performance guy at the club.

So it was it wasn't any unusual to anyone else.

No, so adding games, thirty two goals.

Another really solid season.

Obviously, the US falls out of the season when you get some of these injuries.

At that stage, you're still progressing on you know, you don't feel there's anything the fairst.

It almost feels like it's another season too.

Yeah, I definitely was.

And Joe winning the Brownlough.

I think it was well deserved and that was probably a highlight.

But yeah, I remember the start of that season.

We're on fire.

We yeah, we couldn't lose a game, and I think our injuries riddled us, and I remember it was it was a memorable season.

It was great to be part of it.

And I think I started hearing whispers possibly the next year maybe and maybe Dyson Heppel might have mentioned something, and I thought it was a joke.

Really you had no, yeah, absolutely no belief that this was going to have a cause.

And that was a feeling from the other players as well.

Was it was you know, is it is that really a thing?

Or like, what are we talking about?

What did say?

Oh, he just heard rumors that something's something's brewing.

This is well before the February press conferences.

Is that they're in the preseason.

This must have been in the off season.

The off season.

Yeah, Like, can you take us through what you did, what you had to do?

Was there?

We were talking about a program.

How would you explain that to people, like going off site and things like that?

Was there?

Yeah, what us can you take us into what?

Actually how many times you would have to do that sort of stuff and get the injections.

Or you would think every second day?

Yeah, yeah, and then sometimes you'd have to go off side to get some certain things and yeah, but it was constant, constant.

So it was quite a regular thing.

It wasn't like this just happened in for a short period of time.

This was a No, it was regular through the preseason and the season.

It's a lot of needles.

As you said, you're not having needles the whole time.

Yeah, but you know what I mean, like we all totally understand players perspective.

Had that many I might have thought this is pretty quirky.

Yeah, maybe a young twenty year old getting told what to do sometimes.

I know what you're saying.

We really were focusing on the on the game, not the not those and it was just part of the process.

You've got to do a lot of things to play afil and it was just one of those components.

To it said it was a bit haphazard and random, like you know, it's time for your injection.

I've already had one.

Like there was was there a feeling that was a bit slip shot at times.

With Dank's personality?

Yeah, personality.

He was.

Very quirky, but you know, he was in pharmaceuticals and a few other things.

So look, I just went with a fly.

I was.

I was trying to get the best out of myself and if I was being told by someone paid by the club.

To do this, then you would do it.

Yeah, as simple as that.

When you say quirky, it's just his mannerisms that sort of.

Yeah, I think his personality, you know, a few of the boys had a bit of a joke about him.

But anyway, I'm not sure what he's doing now.

He's still I think he's still in pharmaceuticals.

So how does it developed?

So you get this I assumed sinking feeling when Dyson says I think something's up, and then obviously we know that fateful press conference with the club self reports what's that summer.

Like, I'm not sure when do you know the day, So it's February five.

I think it was the press conference when the club was the press conference happened James thirty and Robson David Evans basically say that we're going to be part of an investigation.

Yeah.

I still think that the players were more in disbelief and think this can't be too serious, and you know, those things happen.

I think as time goes on, you go, this is becoming more serious, as we're starting to realize.

So where were you when the press conference?

You as a group told that this press was pretty hastily arranged press conference?

Do you remember that day?

Vaguely?

I think we're at a meeting and then they might have mentioned that there's going to be a press conference and last.

Year's stomach sink then and you think, what the hell's going on here?

I was one of those people that sort of looked at say, I'm sitting next to Joe, but I'm looking and thinking, are we in trouble here or what's going on?

And the players still didn't know if we're in trouble or not.

And we're getting people to tell us that we're not in trouble.

It's not our fault and we're okay, so you okay, that's fine.

So we sort of were told that throughout the investigation.

And you think we'll get cleared, it'll be a shortish type of process.

We know we've done nothing wrong, like at that stage, you're sort of feeling defined about it all.

Pretty much pretty much, and that probably helped them in the fact that we were pretty blase about it, and then they pretty much set us up to then tell us information to then get us on the technicality.

In the end, we'll explain that to us.

Well, they said that you give nothing to worry about.

You've also you know, you haven't done the wrong thing, and blah blah blah.

And then someone all of a sudden says, oh, no, you did technicality.

Yes two, yes, you've got to Actually you're guilty and you're going to have twelve months off because we need someone to we need someone to blame.

So potentially, you guys shouldn't have allowed yourself to be interviewed.

It's almost like you were relaxed about it.

Yeah, we took some injections, but there was nothing wrong, and then they got you on that technicality much, so.

That's that is that mistrust.

I'm not sure.

Yeah, how does that sit with you now?

The way that played out in that initial.

Pire And looking back, We've got a lot of staff in our businesses and I would hate to think that I do the wrong thing by my staff and then I blame them and you know, I'll let them go and you know, and I mislead them into doing something.

So at the time I was, you know, it was okay.

But as you get older and you look back, and you.

Think for an early twenty year old to be manipulated like that, it is a hard thing.

It's you know, who's responsible for how do you.

You're a team, you're a group together, how do you stick together through that?

Because there's so many you know, guns going off in all different directions.

How do you get together?

And you know, you play, you play the next year, you play that year of twenty thirteen and have some reasonably amazing performances and yet you're being pulled apart at the seams.

I think Joe Watson was really strong in that aspect as a captain, and everyone leaned on him, and I think he did a fantastic job to keep everyone together.

There was uncertainty, we had media nearly at every training.

Session, which you know, you've got a job to do, you guys, that's fine, but it became really hard to try and do your job when everyone kept talking about it.

Was almost like the pre COVID.

It was like a daily event.

You know, what's going on, what's happening here, and we were the brunt of it.

And I think that started to mentally break down a lot of the players.

Throughout the year.

There were just big moments, and so you know, I have a three or four quiet days and then Job goes on AFL three sixty or fox Foot and talks about it, you know, AD nine to six four.

And you know, all of a sudden it explodes again.

I'm lucky.

You know, you could never get respite.

Yeah, you've got to think exactly what I said.

Before, we're innocent.

And you know, Joe doesn't go out there and saying that if he doesn't think he's innocent.

So that's exactly where I think they set us up to say more than we should have.

Do you remember that night?

It was pretty famous Footy Night in folklore in a way.

When Job goes on television watching that, were you were aware that he was going to say that.

I wasn't aware he's going to say it, but I remember watching it.

Yeah, it was what went through your head that night.

Well, you know, Job's the captain, Job's representing everyone in the team, and he goes out and says that it says that it's okay.

You know, that's he's trying to alleviate any any fear that we've done anymore.

And just doubling back onto that.

You have no idea was what you took.

Anyway, Even to this day, you still don't know what was actually taken.

There's some things I think we don't know.

Yeah, who's giving you advice at that stage?

Because you said, you know, you probably shouldn't have said anything.

You probably shouldn't have subjected yourself to the investigators.

But so the club's saying to you, we, you know, we encourage you to go and give full on frank evidence because we know it's going to clear.

Pretty much pretty much.

And our managers were also supportive of that, and they were probably getting.

Directed from the clubs.

I don't know who the you know, was a sarda or a warder giving direction to the club to make sure we do that.

I'm not sure.

Could you feel that there was all my to split in the club?

It was coming, There was going to be some split.

There were certain people saying do this, do that, and then there's other people saying no, don't do this.

Could you feel yeah, yeah, the tension.

The tension was building and the stories were getting changed and that everyone starting to pick up.

We'll hang on.

We were actually in a bit of.

Trouble and I'd moved on to Western Boardogs and Brent Prismol was at the Western Bulldogs as a head of role there at development role, and we were together and as time went on, we both sensed it was getting worse and worse and worse.

So we we lean on each other as well.

And I still spoke to the Essenon guys about it and through the time.

But it was a challenging period.

Yeah.

Sorry, Yeah you go another another final series missed though, So as that, you know, as you're still playing amazing football, which is extraordinary given the circumstances, and you're thinking, okay, well we might qualify, but we might get booted out that moment where you know, we're obviously so many of those penalties get handed down and all of a sudden you realize, Okay, I missed last year's finals and I'm not playing finals again.

Yeah.

Which year are you talking about?

Two thirty thirty?

Yeah, yeah, we finished off the season.

I think it was just getting to the point where we all were not focusing on the football anymore.

Because with that, like, mental health is such a huge aspect of footy dow and we were in it.

We deal with it a lot better now than we previously have.

How did you feel for some of your teammates yourself as well, going through it without a huge amount of support And did you notice some of your teammates really really struggling through this period?

It was new territory for Yeah, so things would happen and the best thing we could do is come together as a team, and that's all we had and we had to sort of stick to it.

The media had their own agenda, ASATA had their own agenda, the AFL had their own agenda, even the Australian government, I don't know, Victorian government commission.

So we felt like we're in a bubble and we had to stick together and that was the only thing.

There were cracks starting to.

Show, and I mean, without going into too much detail about the cracks, but there were clearly players who were absolutely struggling.

And did they get the support that they needed because you're probably thinking, who's on outside here?

There's so many different conflicting.

Yeah, I don't think they would have got the support because that's the thing.

They had so many people that were after us.

Yeah, there was no escape.

So who am I going to talk to that I can trust?

Maybe mum and dad, maybe your partner, but that's about it, and your teammates.

Everyone's covering their arts at that stage.

Yeah, there'll be a lot of people trying to do that, I think.

So you decided to move on, Yeah, tell us about that.

Brenda McCartney came to me early in the year twenty thirteen.

I think he put an offer on the table and it was substantially more than essenon, And with everything that happened that year, I was really sick of it.

I love the team, I love the players and the team, but I thought maybe it's time to move on and get a fresh start.

Didn't think i'd get banned for a year, and I don't think McCartney and those guys thought I was going to get banned for you unfortunately, But I think it was just something I needed just to maybe just a bit of a reset.

Yea, was it?

I mean, obviously Macay you have had a great relationship with Brendan and the like, but as much of it was I don't want to be a part of this anymore.

It must have been like a drained You know, maybe a fresh start is going to clear everything.

For me, it was a drain.

Every day.

You knew what every turn up to, so you knew what the shit you're going to have to put up with, yeap, just before you.

Even get on the field to train.

So it was groundhog day, isn't it in a lot of ways, living it over and over again?

Yeah?

Yeah, it was monotonous and that was part of it.

If I can get away from it somehow, I thought, you know, that might be my chance.

Was there one moment?

What was your lowest moment?

Do you think through that period?

Was there one?

I mean, obviously we'd get to that with twenty sixteen, but even through that twenty thirteen season when all Hull was breaking loose, was there one moment we.

Didn't In terms of thirteen, we still didn't know the sky what was going to happen.

The low point for me was probably twenty fifty Bulldogs and I said this.

Brent Prison and I were both talking to each other and I said, do you do you get a feeling that this is going to happen?

And we both sort of agreed, and I thought that was the point.

It was end of twenty fifteen, they're about to get banned.

Probably January two thousand and sixteen sixteen.

That was a really low point because you think, oh, you know, it's like a they've got youa and you're thinking, all this time, they've built this, they've built this case.

And look, Peter Gordon did a great job for Brent Prisblee and I and I'm very grateful for it.

But it just was there was no way out, and that was the thing for those that you know, would want to recall it.

So obviously, you know, punishment handed down in two thousand and thirty and s and excluded from the finals, herd suspended for twelve months, the club find two million dollars tripp to those draft picks, and then you know, by March twenty fifteen you found not guilty by STATA, and so you potentially think you're out at that stage and then obviously under the water appeal, that's when you suspended.

Just take me back to leaving the footy club.

So Mark Thompson's the new coach.

He calls you, tells you, I'll love you to stay.

Yeah, any sort of regard action that makes you think I'd reconsider or you were.

You were all in on getting to the.

Dogs that time.

When he rang, I was, I was already done.

But you know a month prior, no, I was.

I was definitely on the fence.

Hard Hearts would love to stay.

I wanted to stay.

And some of the players had a conversation with Bomber and and said, can you do something and make sure he stays?

And it just the difference in contract was huge, and I just and it was the combination of the Asada stuff and I just really wanted to get out of there.

How much more today offer you?

I think it was another year or something, because you've got four years at the door.

Years.

Yeah.

Do you remember what Mark Thompson said to you was did he go the hard cell?

Did he?

Well?

He rang me when I was at the races actually and said, I just give us five minutes and then I have a big chat.

But look, he was trying to get me across, and I just, yeah, I'd figure it out.

I feed it out, and I spoke to Mum and Dad and I thought, what's the best option for me?

And I think that was it.

And by the time he rang me, I was already I could have been already training at the Western Bulldogs or whatever.

And he rang me again, I said, it's done.

Just forget about it.

So anyway, that's histrue.

And that two thousand and fourteen season, what can you take it through?

That was a tough year for not for you, but because you played really good for me just to get.

A yard clear and that was enough to let him settle and drive brilliantly for God.

But yeah, Dogs was a really tough year for Mecca.

Yeah, Macca Macha was starting to probably in that year, starting to struggle with the players and the and the and the culture around that club.

And you can see by the end of that year was really slipping.

But look, I enjoyed the Bulldogs.

The Bulldogs are a great club.

And yeah, I think he just lost touch with the players.

There was a lot of friction, wasn't there player wise?

With him?

By the end it was by the end of it you could sense, you know, a car crash coming at some stage.

Yeah.

For the year as well, what you're thinking, this is going to go It's not gonna end.

Well, yeah, halfway through the year you could sense it.

Look, I was sitting in a great spot.

I played okay and I got along with Brendan, but he was just he was under the strain, I think, and you could definitely see.

That what has lost touch made we love market We've had him in this seat, one of favorites.

He's talked about some of his failings, but you know, it was a difficult period there as well.

Brian Griffin was probably a reluctant captain.

He had a couple of agitators in there.

You know.

Adam Cooney was, you know, probably not playing the great foot he wanted to do.

Jack Stringer give us some details on you know, how it goes bad in the spaces of a couple of months.

I think I think the players start to get disgruntled with him and they start doing things against him.

And then if you if your culture starts swinging against the leader, then that's when it really affects the team performance.

And what and what's the not backstabbing?

But you know, coach is no good whispering campaign.

How does it happen within the footy club?

Oh like wildfire, So it just it happens naturally.

And and he could sense that.

And I think I can't say what happened with him in Peter Gordon, but I think he just put his hand up and said, well, I'm done.

And look I get along with Makato, I know really well.

And and I spoke to him afterwards and he and he said, you know, he got to him and and he's learned from that and moved on.

And look, football is a really tough game.

And it doesn't matter for coaches in the firing line.

There's it's got to be a coach or a player, you know, and that's it's one or the others.

So yeah, it's it's it's tough at times.

And it's tough for you.

You were overseas when Ryan Griffin quits was about there You're thinking, how the hell what's going on over there?

When someone someone text me, oh, your coach is gone, and then Vin to say, he goes, oh.

Your captain's gone to.

What's going on here?

And I've just come to the club.

But that was an interesting there's no regrets.

You're still were happy to keep going with the Dogs and you went for is Gone.

But yeah, I really love the Dogs and I had a great time there and look for the for the Dogs, it was a great reset it And look we made the finals in twenty fifteen and we got Marcus Bontopali and Bevo comes in and he changes the game style and I really admire how well Bevo did in that first year.

Yeah, how proud of you of the way you held yourself like even in that twenty fourteen years.

So the show cause notices are handed out June twelve, twenty and fourteen, you lose your captain and your coach.

November fourteen, infraction notice.

Is issued to the players.

You're still playing reasonable football there, Like how do you operate on a day to day basis.

It's one of those things you've got to shut off, shut off all the external noise and you've got to perform.

And that was what I sort of weren't over the years, was it doesn't matter what's happening in your personal life.

You need once you cross that line, you need to perform at your highest ability.

And your best ability and I've just grown a skin or whatever.

Yeah, grown really hardened to that and to push it all aside.

It changed you, Yeah, it changed you as a person in a lot of ways.

And yeah it did, it did, And then I can talk about later.

But then cracks start to show.

When you throw enough things under the rug, you start tepping over it, and you know things, things change.

So twenty fifteen, March thirty one, the players are cleared, the anti doping tribulal announcers all thirty four past and President Essen and players were not guilty of a band supplement.

You got a new coach, you got this young superstar in Marcus Bontepelli.

You're thinking we're away here.

Yeah, yeah, And twenty fifteen was a great, great season, and I actually I was enjoying football, Not that I didn't, but I you know, I enjoyed the football.

Can nearly forget about the asatum stuff for once.

I'm thinking this is this is, you know, we're back to normal, and then you know why I stayed with Essendon.

So I actually really like that.

But I'm not sure the date you might have mentioned when they did appeal it, but that was you know, bottom of your stomach kind of thing.

Again May eleven, they appealed, which obviously that again you feel sick again.

So it's that highs and lows that you Yeah, and.

It was constant.

It was, you know, we're we're in the We had to train and then went Brent Prismon and I had to go to the lawyer's office and we had to go back.

In this and it was constant.

It was.

It was really tough mentally to try and get it through, but.

Somehow I still played good footing.

You kick you're out, you know, outscored Essendon in that game kick seven against Eston.

That was the game that Jake Carlisle, I think.

Said this club is.

It was caught on camera if you remember that day.

Yeah, I was just fortunate enough on that day I knew how all the players played and feeling good and yeah, you know, some days work, some days don't.

Do you feel like they're obviously going through some tough times as well.

Did you feel like you're happy to kick the seven goals?

Of course you are, you're playing great footy, but you feel for some of your ex teammates there as well.

You could feel they were very deflated and I remember Dyson hepl on the day and they just just you know, they weren't there, they weren't themselves, and it was hard to see.

I've got a job to do.

I'll play well if I can, but I did feel for him and I could just sense the the they were down.

They were beaten in that game.

You play your single final against the Crows, sort of a famous final now given the Talia brothers and talk about Michael and Daniel and whether one of the brothers.

Shared tas with the other one.

But you played your first AFL final finally, yeah, Turs and fifteen.

It was a good final.

I thought were going to win and they managed to just beat us at the end.

But I think we're probably the better team.

But yeah, we just let it slide and look, finals, the pace picks up a little bit and you know, I got injured the week prior and I.

Was a little bit with bits all going into the game.

I wasn't too bad, but yeah, you're never perfect.

Yeah, because I think you were two or three goals, two goals at least in front with about ten minutes to go and then they stage that great comeback adall.

Yeah, yeah, but you get the feeling this footy club's going somewhere.

You do, you do, And look what happened in that last quarters.

We missed a lot of handballs and then we developed.

The handball game the handball So that might have been the birth of the handball game.

It was the birth really, did you internally talk about that later on.

As soon as we start a preseason, we're going to work on that because we missed so many opportunities in the handball.

Yeah, so that was where it all got that where it got started.

And look, that's probably what helped as well in that Grand Final to the sixteen.

What was Bevo like you know that first year had with him in that as well, and he's a combative man, you know, with the talias and the situation there about that that was quite funny.

But look, I really admired Bever and a lot of his coaching attributes.

I took a lot from that even in the in the workforce as well.

And he's always a very knowledgeable man.

And look, if you're on your on the right side of Bev would be great.

If you're on the wrong side, you know, you're off a cliff.

But that that's okay.

That's that's football, and that's that's the reality of it.

What's over you on it was mostly on the good side, and then I finished on the batside.

Tell Us about the Tally Brothers.

Did the blokes feel blatantly that they knew what your tactics were?

I don't know.

I don't know.

If a fact, I'm sure they would have spoke.

And how much that mattered for the fan out there, you know, some of those little knowing those tactical issues.

Is that a big thing?

No, it's not like there was one one set play.

It doesn't matter.

It's not going to change the game.

Where there was one set player, you think this is pretty.

Yeah, he's lining up with him and you go, that'side.

But no, I don't even think about it.

So you're building, you've played your first final, you're building towards twenty sixteen, but they's still that cloud.

Tell Us about January twelve, twenty and sixteen.

Were you at the Bulldogs you knew it was coming at that time?

Jake Stringer actually text me before I knew.

Really yeah, because I was driving so I didn't see it.

I couldn't.

I sort of saw the phone, I could, you know, I'm not touching the phone, but he sort of messaged me, and I thought, what's his messaging?

You know, that's why has he messaging me at this time.

And then you know, I got closer and realized and I thought, oh, they've just put the verdict out that we've got a year off.

And had a quick meeting.

Up upstairs with the bulldogs hierarchy and went through it, and the most disappointing thing was that you can't be a part of the team that you were made to be a part of.

So okay, you've got to go home.

Okay, now what pretty quickly we have a meeting.

That's it.

You can't not allowed to be there.

You're not allowed to be there.

Texts idea.

It might have been just hope you're well or something, you know, something small, and I thought there was an odd, odd text.

He wasn't usually text, no, not at all, so you knew this is good news goverment.

Yeah, I thought, what's he talking about anyway?

So I found it in a couple of more minutes.

But yeah, just devastation for you know, obviously myself, but all the other players that were essentially innocent.

And then as I said, they get you on a technicality that you weren't aware of that's not even proven, and you think, oh god, yeah anyway.

So you like so that afternoon you get to I think David Meier's house assure may have one hundred years and your world collapses.

Yeah, and that was the biggest thing.

We all stuck together.

And that's what I said about Job and you know he's the captain and you know I wasn't at the club, but you know I was obviously welcome to come and we just started reminiscing on the good times and trying to get each other through it the best we can.

So that was a really good day.

And you know, I think it all set settles in after a week, it doesn't it.

You go, Okay, this is reality now.

And fortunate enough to get some funding from Essendon to train at Keel or Grammar that year, and I was, you know, they obviously invited me to come and train and.

We're all the players, okay with you coming back?

Or was there any were a couple of people saying, well, he said another club now, or was there anything?

There may have been one, but generally I said no, no, he will help us train best we want him to come and train and Look, that was one of those saving points I think for that year for me was just to have some normality around training and coming back with a for guys to you know, keep my skills alive just for the next season.

Who do you speak to, like mental health wise and everything like that.

Who's important for you at this stage?

That's as tough a thing as you could go through.

Look, the Bulldogs are really supportive.

Bebo and Bob Murphy were great and probably leaning on you know, Sean Wellman was one of the coaches for us, so he's employed to help us through that train those training sessions in twenty sixteen, but relying on the players too, Hey, what are you going through?

What are you thinking?

You know what I mean?

Sometimes that actually helps, just the dialogue and we've all found that with mental health is just to have a chat about it.

How big a figure in this whole thing was job to think of all that he was going through personally and the way that he brought you guys together, and you know, such a berhead.

And I don't think I understood at the time how big it was, but I think he put more things aside just to make sure that we're okay.

So that made us feel better and he knew that, so he was That's why he was such a great leader.

Put him like put stuff aside, like sacrifice for himself.

Yeah, he sacrificed his own own things.

And you know he's won the Brownlough but hey that's now in Jeopany And yeah, I'm sure he had a lot to go through and he's you know, he's the brunt of it.

He's he's facing the media, he's facing you know, SATA, he's doing the inquiries and the interviews and things.

So he really took that so we didn't have to.

When he hands back the metal.

How do you feel like you saw him play?

You saw him day to day, You saw the work that he put in in that in that twenty twelve season.

Yeah, I felt really I've felt annoyed for him because he definitely deserved it that year.

He was the best player firsthand.

He just was.

He was on fire.

I just yeah, so I don't want to get into it.

No, it's obviously whoever got Mitchell got the Yeah, yes, but yeah, yeah, which is you know, whatever the AFL thinks is fair.

But I still think he was the best player Demetria on here on this you know this podcast as well, and he said that if he had still been in the role, he would have found a way for Job to keep the medal.

It is quite sad, isn't it that?

You know?

And I think he gave it back?

Did he give it back?

The medal?

And that's what Joe's like, He will say, Yeah, he's a sportsman.

He's a fair sportsman.

So that season, obviously, you know it's a really late push from the Western Bulldogs, but you're not there And at what stage are you think, hang on, I'm going to miss something pretty special.

In twenty sixteen, well, start of the finals.

I think you can build something building.

Yeah, they had this the culture, the dynamic of the players.

They wanted to play for each other, and tom Boyd spoken about it.

You know, he's gritting a book and a few other things, and the vibe was just different and they were never going to lose.

And you know, you start thinking, oh, you know, I'm going to miss out.

Yeah, this is you know, I should be on this team.

And you know then Bob Murphy does it a cl Bob Murphy's been in the club for sixteen years.

You know, and there's other players that obviously miss out, Jack Path and Mitch Wallace and you know, life moves on.

But you think I would love to have played and.

You would have been in that team like yeah on form absolutely, Yeah, yeah, I think I would have been And it's just sad I didn't get to play in that on the on the big stage.

How connected you were you trained?

I think before one of the finals, didn't you?

Did you speak to them before the Hawks semi final?

Was there something?

But you were still well connected with the group not the Hawks?

Was it the first one?

Yeah?

No, I wasn't able to come back until another week or something.

Yeah, did you speak to the group then when you were able to come back and yeah, well I came back and I was able to train with the group.

So that was the year.

It was the time frame, time frame that it was.

I was able to come back and be involved with the group.

I was wasn't allowed to go to the MCG.

No in the rooms.

No, how weird is that?

So you can.

It as a competition day you couldn't go, but.

Training you could go to the training session when you're doing train with them at the end.

Yeah, and I trained with him the last three weeks and it was actually it was you know, I felt a part of it as well.

It was actually a great experience and fortunate or unfortunate.

I actually got married the day before Grand Final.

How did you book it in February?

And why did you book it in February?

It was a quirky day.

It's coming on derby days.

I would have canceled it if I was playing.

Football, but to get the deposit back you would have been all right.

Yeah, it was fine.

But it was one of those things I knew.

I knew in my heart I.

Probably was not going to play for the rest of the year.

I think that decision was set and we're trying to overturn it.

Peter Gordon was really instrumental in that, but he didn't didn't eventuate to overturn it.

And the thing I remember was the Thursday before the Grand Final, there's ten thousand people at Whittenoval.

I'm going to get to something to fix for.

The wedding and I can't get out of the ground and trying to get people out of the way, and I've.

Just trained and anyway, it was a it was a funny situation to be in.

What's what's those twenty four hours, like you know, your wedding and then obviously watching the boys queen and where did you watch it from?

Well, we had the recovery day on the Saturday at my place and we sat up at TV and look it was.

It was a great day and I think the last five minutes you know they're going to win, and it was a little bit emotional and look my family around me, and it was the best place to be, to be honest, and it was.

It was one of those things that I cherished that they were there and it was a little bit sad, but I'm really happy for the team.

Did you catch up with the guys afterwards?

Did you bring them?

Did you?

How was the connection there?

They went to Yarivale on the Sunday and I caught up with them at eleven o'clock there.

And watch your mindset there you're really happy for them, but in the back of yard in mind, you're going, yeah.

I pushed that aside and I wanted to be really happy for the guys and I was just I was just happy that was at a club that just won a grand final and it was a great day.

We were the great moments from that Grand Final.

Yeah, the boy goal and Morris drag d and tackle and Shane Biggs and Lamp picking and you know, it was a great ground final.

I just spoke to some one recently last week about it and I said it was the Shane Biggs and picking.

Was that the Yeah, that was the play and that was the Shane Biggs like five repeat efforts and that really changes the dynamic of the game.

And then and Sydney can sense that, I know that, and then they get a little deflated and we pounce and I think someone kicks a goal And.

Yeah, that moment there was big.

And the Tom Boyd moment was probviously.

The extraordinary finishing.

To think about it, take us through the tom Board experience.

I mean, he's just extraordinary what he's doing for mental health and he's just so balanced right now.

But are you're feeling that when people are saying you should take a pay card and when he's not playing great football and you know how much did the players have empathy for what he was going through even though he was on in this extraordinary salary?

Yeah, that's a that's a conundrum, isn't it.

Look I got along with Tom really well, and I think he I think he felt guilty in the end for you know, he wanted to give the money back and I think Peter Gordon said no, you know, it's a contract and time in his heart wants to give back and that's what he's doing.

And look that that contract may have been big then, but it's not that big now, Like it's you know, he's won a Grand final.

He's won a Grand final for the club, Like what else do you want did Buddy do?

Did Buddy win a Grand final for the nine year?

So you know, I mean it's paid for itself.

So if anyone ever says you go, well, he won the Grand final, so that in that's in my view anyways.

And it was an extraordinary grand final the club had in one one since fifty four exactly.

As far as repaying, I think that it was repaid in that sense.

I think it was, yeah, small small change for what the actual result was.

But when you think about a career with Is and Lows, you think about the people you've met, you know, the Tom Boards of the world, that Bob Murphy's, the Brad Preuswall's, the you know, it's an extraordinary to think you've been in this, you know, this career with all these magnificent people like it, it's worth the price alone.

It is it is, and the thing I do I take away from it is all those people were trying to be the best that they could be, and I took so much out of it, and I try to replicate that and even my life now, I take a lot from what Job's done, what Bob Murphy was trying to do, what Bever was trying to do, and Hurdy, I've had so many good influential people in my life that it's probably a blessing.

You know, a lot of bad things obviously happened through the football career, but all in all, I.

Take a lot out of it.

And I'm still grateful for all the experiences that I've gotten and I appreciate it.

How good would James Hurd have been if there's no supplements scandal in that sense as a coach?

Could you have been as good as everyone thought he could have been.

As a coach?

Yeah, I definitely.

He was highly motivated, really good with his strategy, and I think he could have gone a long way.

Good tactically all that stuff.

Like I had all the essence of what makes a great coach.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, Stephen Dank, I think you've said that you would have loved to have for him to come out and help you.

If you had to speak to Stephen Dank right now, what would you say.

Maybe just an underst standing of you know, did you understand did you understand what you were putting the players through?

You know?

I think he was little blase with some of his thought processes.

Did he know the rules around what you can and can't do?

Maybe that, But I don't.

I don't lose sleep over Stephen Dank.

Yeah, so you don't think about it all.

You're trying not to think about it.

You're probably reminded, as you said, you know, on a regular basis.

Yeah, yeah, But do you portion any blame at the moment?

Is that something you still think about or is that something you've well and really moved on from in terms of the af L.

Have you been back to Wessendon in that sense as well?

I don't.

There's a lot of people to blame.

You can always blame someone.

I'm not.

I'm not a blamer.

I do move on.

Yeah, I haven't been back to Essendon that much.

I've been back to the Western Bulldogs for some of the functions, which has been good, but I don't I try not to hold a grade.

Now, do you feel more like a Bulldog than a Bomber in that sense?

Or maybe because I played there last kind of last?

Yes, it feels like you don't want to be defined by It's such such a long and product, give life to live.

Yeah, yeah, And you know, football almost seems like high school.

It's like this artificial environment and you finish it.

And I was speaking of Bob Murphy about this at the one hundredth reunion in round three, and he goes, what we're worried about?

And I said, oh, glad you said it, because I don't know.

It's like you're in this bubble and everyone's just it's tense, and you're trying to perform, and yeah, I think you get out and you and you breathe a sigh of relief.

Yeah, tell us about your life now.

You've got kids, Yeah, your businesses for kids.

What if they say I want to play footy, what would you say to them?

I wouldn't stop them.

Yeah, it comes with its pitfalls, but that's not my decision to make.

But I just try and encourage as much as I can and my kid, my son's really getting into soccer and football at the moment, and yeah, I don't know where that's going to lead, but we'll see how we go.

Business wise, What does your life look like now, stew.

We've got a couple of st also, Cramery's mind attends.

One in Maryborough is a big store, and day Oxford in.

The middle of town.

There.

They're great stores and we've got some really good staff.

So there's we might have about sixty staff all up, and that keeps him pretty busy.

And as I said before, I try and take a lot out of football and what can I make their lives easier, you know?

It said, a really good culture and a standard.

And I feel like then the business has performed better and so there's a lot of skills that are transferable.

Proud of you of the football career.

With one hundred and three games.

Well Dad always says he has one hundred and three games, that's a that's quite an achievement.

I said, Okay, no worries.

I don't really say much about it, but look, I think I've told my wife I said, I gave it everything I had and as long as I did the best I could, that's I'm happy.

And your parents through this whole, the highs and the lows and lots of what were they like.

Yeah, they were good.

They're very supportive and obviously it's a little tense with some of the commentary around some parents with the the third four, and yeah, they held strong.

Dad's dad's a strong character and he and he supported me through it.

And yeah, we're just as I said, we've got to.

Move on, move on.

Jy Cara, thanks for your tom Thank you, thank you.

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