I still haven't been given a reason.

I've been told by people who were close to it that the equal concern, or even a bigger concern to that was the afl W is a year old.

We don't want this sideshow destroying it.

I'm John Ralph and I'm Glenn MacFarlane.

Welcome to Sacked, a podcast that explores what really happens when the X falls in the AFL world.

Will take you behind the scenes with some of the biggest names in football and find out how they found out their time was up and who pulled the trigger.

Hannah Mouncie never asked to be the spokesperson for transgender inclusion in professional sport, but when the former Australian handball rep burst onto twenty seventeen AFL W draft radars, that was what she became.

But while Mountcy became frustrated and eventually disillusioned by the changing position of the AFL, she is hopeful that her profile can have a positive impact as an advocate for trans rights.

Hannah Mouncie, Australian women's and men's handle star, former vfl W player, seen on sixty Minutes.

But more to the point, open mic welcome to the SAC podcast.

Hey guys, how are you doing?

Hey?

You won't meet to middle aged men, probably less equipped to tackle all these issues, but we'll do it with an open heart and really interested in your story at a time when trans rights have become a political footy across the world.

Yeah, why are you so keen to keep advocating for transisues?

Look, I think as much as anything, there's no interest like self interest, So that's probably one good reason.

But I think it's something that it's funny.

Over time, usually things move forward, but instead we're actually seeing things go backwards a really long way.

And I even look, you know, seven or eight years ago, the conversations that were being had around trans people, they are a lot more progressive than they are now, and especially laws and things like that around the world too.

And this is outside sport obviously, but there's a sporting element to it.

But places like you know, the UK, especially in the US, you know, there's a lot of you know, issues around access to healthcare, where ten years ago there was no issues, and they're now off no scientific basis whatsoever.

It's more ideological.

There's a lot of bands coming in and restrictions to healthcare and stuff like that, which actually does a lot of harm to a lot of people.

So I think it's just something where too, there's a very vocal minority who have a very big platform, and they're the ones whose voices are often heard, and the people who are affected by it generally don't actually get to have a say.

So I figure, if I've got a little bit of a platform, then it's worth saying something and just keeping the other side of the conversation out there.

I think it must be incredibly hard that situation.

Like I think it was almost a decade ago that you decided to transition, and like, as you said, now it's comple It's gone the other way, hasn't it.

And how does that affect you know, not just yourself, but so many other people in similar situations.

Yeah, it's a strange one because no one even a decade ago, like very few people knew what transgender meant.

It wasn't something that was out there in the conversation really until Caitlyn Jenner went through her transition.

That was the first time anyone got real exposure to it in the mainstream, I think, and initially there was a real surgeon I guess support for trans people, and especially seeing her story.

I think that was put out there, and you know, it was the Vanity fair cover and all that sort of thing, and that was the first time a lot of people had actually heard of trans people, you know, I know that growing up, I didn't I didn't know the term transgender until I was in my twenties, you know, and I'm only thirty five, you know, like, it's not that long ago where people had no idea what this was, you know, and the only time you would see something that was remotely similar to even touching on, you know, trans issues was on Jerry Springer, and usually that was not particularly flattering, and it also wasn't trans people.

It was you know, it was the freak show coming out and they were trying to profit off people who, yeah, we're really quite troubled.

But that you know, you had all sorts of people going on there and all sorts of things, and that was all people saw.

So it's been very quick to come to prominence.

There was a small time where things were really progressive and actually things are looking quite positive, and then I think we saw around the world, you know, the gay marriage vote was largely lost by those who were opposing it, and they needed someone else to beat up on, and that was us.

So it's then gone backwards very very quickly.

And the impact it has, I mean, I think on people like me who have been through it and have been through you know, accessing health care and things like that.

You know, that's largely in the past for me, so it doesn't affect me too much, but I also know what it's like on the other side of it, where you're trying to navigate who you are.

You're trying you know, you're terrified, absolutely terrified of rejection and what people will think of you, and the self esteem issues too, like you know, you're brought up thinking that this isn't normal, and so you know, you think you're a monster really and like you're a freak and this and that, and the conversations being had in the media only serve to propagate that.

Now, So if you're a young trans person or a trans person of any age and you're hearing the conversations now, you know that can only lead to people feeling more depressed, more anxious, more isolated, with drawing more and doing a lot of damage.

So and look, that's not to say that people who have transitioned and don't have those barriers to help care are immune to it.

But my thoughts immediately go to the people who are where I was, you know, up until the age of twenty five, trying to figure out who they are and trying to actually be comfortable with it.

We'll go to your story a bit, and you know the AFEL draft and obviously you're handball aspirations.

But what is it do you think that trans people are being banned from elite sport for?

Is it a safety concern, is it a cultural concern?

Or is it a fairness thing?

Given that you know athletes are trans, athletes are going to start dominating world sport.

Yeah, I think there's a combination.

I think largely it's ideological.

I think largely there's people who don't want trans people in sport, don't like trans people in society because it isn't just a sport issue and sport is just one of the places where they're being affected.

And also, I think there's a hell of a lot of misinformation out there.

You know, there's a lot of misinformation out there around the way hormone treatment affects your body.

There's all sorts of misinformation around studies that have been done showing you know, what happens to your body during transition and performance.

And you know a lot of people don't understand that because they're not given the information.

And that's fair enough.

You know, if you're not given the information, you can't be expect to try understand it.

But I think it's just part of a broader move against trans people.

And I think if you look at the world, it's going more and more to the right, and you know, that's just the way the world's going.

So I think, you know, there is obviously a fairness element to it, and I'm a big believer in that there has to be restrictions there.

I've always advocated for that, never said they shouldn't.

But I think where the IOC is now, where they're going.

You know, you're twelve to twenty four months of hormone treatment.

That's pretty spot on.

And I say that as someone who's been through it.

You know, I can tell you like when I started hormone treatment, that was a month after we got back from Qatar and we be over there trying to qualify for the Olympics for Rio, and so as a result, we've done some testing before that, and you know, before we left.

So this is in the start of November of twenty fifteen.

You know I squatted, yeah, in twenty fifteen.

Sorry, yeah, I'd squatted two hundred kilos, benched one fifty and cleaned one forty, which are pretty big numbers.

You know, they're not small.

But within twelve months pretty much everything had dropped off by about two thirds across the board.

So I know that, you know, my squad had dropped down to about sixty or sixty five, maybe my bench had dropped to fifty.

I know that because I wasn't doing two plates anymore.

And that was a real shock, you know, because yeah, and then my clean god, that was even worse, Like that was like fifty five or something.

It was a huge drop.

And I don't think people understand that.

And that's because you remove testosterone from the body and that has an impact across the board.

You know, you lose a lot of weight very quickly.

You know, I was pretty built and I lost twenty kilos rapidly.

Where you're at right now, so you remember of the women's handball team, the Australian women's handble team, it could qualify for the LA Olympics, but you might be banned from entering America given a potential Trump ban now as in twenty thirty two.

If you're still around, which you'd hope to be for the Brisbane Olympics, Australia will have a team in that competition given a course with the host nation, but potentially you might be banned as a transgender athlete given the IOC is working towards more concrete bands.

Is that the right way to sum it up.

Yeah, it seems like that's where they're going at the moment.

Is they're looking at probably a blanket ban across the board, and not just for trans athletes but into sex athletes or I shouldn't say total banned, but they'll be forced to It seems like they'll be forced to compete in the men's competition.

But yeah, like I'm I'm playing for Australia at the moment.

I've played god for the women's tea for the last eight years now, seven or eight years now and had no issues really at all, especially from overseas.

You know, I've been very open about it with the International Federation because obviously have to be, and they've been really fantastic.

You know, the Asian Handball Federation no issues at all whenever we compete in Asia at Asian Championships and stuff like that.

So they've had no issues, and none of the teams we've played against in those competitions have ever raised any concerns or issues at all.

It's actually the opposite I've had and from countries where people might you know, profile people as being more conservative and having issues with trans people, you know, like I've had such positive responses from you know, some of the girls from Iran and Kazakhstan and who's Bekistan, and.

So I see potentially within months and there's a working party there, you could be banned from competing in the in the Olympics.

But also just in the national petition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I expect to probably be banned by the end of the year, if I'm honest.

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

But it also gives us time to you know, if there's because I'm sure not.

I'm sure there'll be challenges coming for it, like it'll it's there, just will be.

And I also could be wrong on that.

You know, they could come back and surprise us.

But I think that the issue that we've got if they do go down the path of blanket bands is you know, it's banning people for what is essentially a medical issue.

So I think one of the biggest issues is we need to reframe how we look at trans people.

You know, the general Jerry Springer explanation was, this is a woman or a man trapped in a man's or a woman's body, and they're trying to fix it.

But and they're choosing to change gender.

But the way we need to understand it is, and the way I explained to it is, you know, you've got congenital abnormalities, cleft palettes, people with holes in their heart, things like that.

This is no different.

What you've got is people who are born with brain of male female doesn't matter, and they're literally just born with the wrong genitals.

The only problem is they can't tell you that when they're born.

Whereas you can pick up a cleft palate, you can pick up all that sort of stuff, and it's the only one where you limit access to healthcare until they're older and fair enough, like, that's not an issue.

I'm not complaining about that.

But you know, there's been studies done, you know, MRIs all sorts of things where they're actually mapping, you know, trans women's brains, trans men's brains and comparing it to cisgender, which is basically just people who are you know, the gender they are assigned at birth, so if they're male or their male, If the're female, they're female.

And what they're finding is trans women's brains line up almost exactly in terms of mapping and all that sort of thing as cisgender males brains, and the same for trans men and cisgender men and not just it.

And I'm not super into this, but I was looking at it last night.

It's not just the way the brain works and the mapping and all that sort of stuff.

It's actually the thickness of certain areas of the brain and things like that as well.

So this is not a choice that people are making.

This is actually a biological you know, congenital abnormality, birth defect in I guess the old term that just needs to be corrected like anything else.

You know, if someone had a cleft palate or a hole in their heart, you'd look to fix it.

And I guess the only problem with this is, you know, this is one that makes you grow differently, and it's not the person's fault.

And I think the problem we're looking at with this if they go down blanket bands is you're banning someone from competing who's done nothing wrong.

This is no fault to their own.

They haven't done anything to cheat the system.

Whereas then if I look at it in terms if they're worried about a performance advantage people who have willingly gone out and doped and been found guilty of doping.

They're allowed to compete again after four years, So you're automatically saying that, And if I look at the band for doping, it's four years, it used to be two now in that there's obviously an element that's a punishment.

And if they're allowing them to compete after four years, I can only assume that that means they feel that any advantage they got from doping has now gone and it's back to a level playing field after four years.

So you know, if you say that, you know they may be bumped it up by a year or two as an extra punishment to deter people.

If they're still looking at banning people for doping and allowing them to compete after four years, Automatically, that tells me if you're looking at putting restrictions on trans people, it has to be less than four years because they've actually done nothing wrong, whereas people who are doped have gone out of their way to cheat this system.

Tell us a bit about your personal journey, so handball.

From two thousand and nine onwards, you played twenty two games with the Australian men's team, pardon me, represented Australia in the thirteen Mensamble Championships.

And I think it's around that time that you confess to your mum or telling your mum, you know, through Facebook message during a tiament where you're having panic attacks.

Mum, this is who I am.

Tell us about.

Yeah, it was a bit later.

So yeah, So I was really lucky.

Like I grew up, I saw first saw handball at Sydney Olympics when I was eleven and absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it.

And I was actually really lucky.

Later on I got to play against some of those players that we watched at those Olympics, which was very cool.

But I'd always been very into sport, and you know, I'm very much typical story of trans people where I knew it was different from a very very young age but.

How young would you say?

How young?

Oh?

Oh, four five six around then?

From a very young age.

But you also know, you know, like, oh, okay, boys or boys, girls and girls, let's not cross that.

You know like that, you know, it's it's that whole thing that you grow up with.

And so I was always very in the sport, and I sort of threw myself into that, I think, even again from a really young age, to sort of run away from it and build a lot of self esteem because I didn't, you know, knowing that I was that different.

I didn't feel particularly great about myself and I couldn't put into words what it was like.

I mean, I definitely could, but I didn't know what trans people were until I was in my twenties.

So what would you what would you have said if you had to put it into words?

Well, I remember thinking I was like, I'm a girl, but I also knew that was impossible.

Yeah, so you're not going to say anything because you think people think you're crazy, and you just be.

Told you don't tell anyone.

You're just dealing with this in your own mind for a lot.

Yeah, And and so I really threw myself into sport.

I think to build a lot of self esteem and myself because that's where I got all of it.

And so, you know, I grew up playing cricket and we lived in Sydney.

I had to play soccer because I wanted to play rugby league, but mum hates it.

So SU grew up in Melbourne, so she's AFL and so but then we moved to Augury when I was ten or eleven, and yeah, I was eleven, and we started playing foot I started playing football, and so I wasn't particularly great at football to begin with because I was so far behind everyone else.

But cricket was my thing, and so I always threw myself into that and then over time I got a lot better at football.

But those first couple of years I was pretty bad.

And then but by the time I got to under eight ams and playing seniors and stuff, I was I was pretty sweet.

But but yeah, so I threw myself into that and it was just this giant secret that I just had to hide, and you know, it was terrified anyone would find out.

Ever, so moved to Canberra when I was eighteen.

So I didn't know what I wanted to do when I finished school and so as it turns out, I actually got a job working for the AFL, which the irony is not lost, but exactly.

Yeah, care irony is not lost, but yeah.

So I was up here and it was it's just sort of fate, you know.

I always wanted to play handball as a kid.

But we moved to Aubrey like two months after the Olympics, and my mum actually was working on the security for the game.

She was in the Army, so she was she was involved in that, and she wanted to get out of Sydney once the Olympics finish.

So I couldn't play the handball because there's not much in Australia and even less, you know, in the country than in the city.

There's none.

So I moved to Canberra and I was eighteen.

I was working for the AFL and the gym I was going to had a basketball stadium attached to it and there was a team training there.

And I'd actually seen something in the Cambra Times as well.

But I did an article on a guy who's a really good maid of mine and my first coach and first national team coach, Tape is an Olympian in Sydney, and I remember just one day I was at the gym and I just sort of went next door and said, what is it like, I can't play?

And I got really really lucky because I was nineteen, so I was pretty fit, young, keen, all that sort of stuff, and I walked into the best environment I possibly could have.

Like everyone like, so Tape was coaching the national team at that point and was also coaching the Canberra team that was playing in the New South Wales League up in Sydney, and every single Australian player that we had either played for Australia or went on to play for Australia.

And you know, we had a bunch of Europeans there who obviously went citizens and couldn't play, but were definitely good enough.

So you know, like in that environment, like you just can't help but learn and pick it up.

And it's really simple swim, Like if you can't go, you just and keep up, you just fall by the wayside.

So I was really lucky.

So I was just like a sponge.

And yeah, like Tape, luckily was still national team coach for a number of years and he was the one who brought me into the national team.

So I first played for Australia in twenty twelve, and then yeah, I played well my first World Championships twenty thirteen, which was, you know, four years after I first started playing, like it was it's ridiculous, like it's ridiculous, and then you know, I yeah, and I loved it.

It was great and it sounds really strange.

But the place I feel most at home is in the big events, Like I think it's just one of those things like I just I feel at home there, like it's where I feel most comfortable.

And I definitely choked the first game we played, I played against Hungary, but it was it was a really good learning curve because I went, I got myself too amped up for it, and I went, what do I need to do?

So I actually the complete opfice.

I tried to put myself asleep the next day, listened to Elton John all day before the game, like music I could or like the most chill music IU as my pup music to coming down, and that's what I've done ever since, and candle in the wind, go for it.

But it's great.

But then yeah, the next day I was I was really lucky.

I went out, We're playing Spain in Madrid, home World Championships, so like they're up for it, they're pumped.

We're playing against some of the guys i'd seen at Sydney Olympics, which was really cool.

One of the goalkeepers was there and and yeah, I went out there.

I managed to score four goals against Spain, which is pretty good because they ended up winning the World Championship.

So you know, for it was a pretty quick quick development, you know, from never having played to four years later playing the World champions in Madrid.

You know, I managed to top score for Australia in that game against them, and from there I was away.

You know, I got that confidence.

I knew what I had to do, and you know I played you know over in Kosovo, which was amazing to go through there, and you know around New Zealand and Australia in places like that too, and then over in which was interesting.

I had to run away from a sheik for three weeks because he thought I owed him fifteen grand but which is a story.

But yeah, and that was the Olympic qualifiers.

So what happened is our manager who's one of my best mates.

It was great whenever we chok traveled overseas.

He'd just go where do you want to go?

On the way home and all route everyone's flights through there and we'll have a holiday.

But he couldn't go be he's a teacher and he'd had too much time off work.

So he said, you can just do it, just take the cash.

I'll give you this, And the Katari's wanted everything in cash, right, So I'm like, leaving Australia, I've taken out like thirty grand US in cash, got in my backpack.

As I'm heading through customs, I was like, I've never seen this much money in my life, like, you know, and get to Qatar and I'm sitting in the technical meeting with our coach as a Danish guy, and basically in the technical meeting they go right, you know, they go through all the what's going to go on for the tournament, medical care protocol for the games, dope in control, all that sort of stuff, who's going to wear what and what games and they've gone, oh, by the way, if you've got sponsors on the uniform, it's three grand a logo and we didn't know that.

So we've got five of them on there.

And handball has no money like, I've never been paid a cent for any sport ever.

We pay other than World championships, I've always paid to go somewhere, like Olympic qualifiers were paying to go.

So we got no money.

And the guy who was running the Asian Handball Federation was also a Katari chic and he came up to He's like, yeah, I was fifteen grand and I'm like, well, we haven't got it.

He's like we have to just get it, because you know, what's fifteen grand to them, you know, And he was getting really shitty with us, and I'm saying, our coach is Danish, you know, he's a good bloke.

And we go outside and he's getting a bit heeded about it, right, and it's like ten or fifteen minutes.

He goes, look, look I come back.

I come back.

I go bath through him.

I come back.

And I said to our coach, I was like, yeah, and we need to leg it so to run and he's like we're getting down to the car right now, I'm going and he was like what no, okay, So it's like, yeah, come get in the car.

So we got in the car.

I got back to the hotel and you know, like I'm playing, like he knows where I'm going to be, right, So for the next three weeks every time, and he was there, like because they've got all the bps, they've got their seats halfway, they've got these giant thrones over there for them.

It was great.

And I could see him come down in the corridors while we're training and stuff like that and what and like during training or before training or after the games, I'd have to like hide in the toilet until he was gone and I just wasn't there, and then we go.

I did that for three weeks and then but yeah, so then we played that tournament to qualify for Rio, which which we didn't qualify, which I was actually really grateful for.

It was always a bit of a long shot anyway, but because that was at the point twenty fifteen, I so context the twenty thirteen World Champs, like that was what I'd been working for.

I was like, if I can just get to this, that'd be amazing.

And you know, like I said, I'd always thrown myself into sport, so I guess would distract myself from everything else that was going on around my gender and all that sort of stuff, and the really hard thing is when you get to the top of that mountain, what do you shoot for?

Like obviously you keep going like you want to keep going.

And you know, I wanted to have a more consistent World Championships next time.

I wanted to because and I'm not saying I was.

I had an amazing tournament, was my first one.

I was twenty three years old, you know, like I definitely, you know, had a lot of improvement in me and I definitely wasn't our best player by any means.

And I'm not saying that, but you know, you tick off such a you tick off such a big goal and it's like, oh, I got there, okay, And then what happened is those thoughts and that you know that all that stuff around my gender kept coming back in stronger and stronger and stronger, and I kept trying to run away from it.

And you know, I did the same through twenty fourteen.

And by the time I got to twenty fifteen, I was just a mess, Like I was was broken, Like I was a mess.

And you know, I told a really good friend of mine here what was going on?

And she's still my best friend to this day.

Kayla.

She's up in Dalin now, but she knew for a good six or seven months before I told anyone else, and she kept it to herself.

And you know, I can't speak highly enough of her and everything she did.

And you know, I'd been to the doctor and done all that, so I had all the drugs and stuff that I needed in my car.

You know, initially an anti androgen, which basically eliminates testosterone.

And I think that's something people don't understand either, is trans people have less testosterone than cisgendered women.

So you know, cisgender women have more testosterone than I do.

So I think that's just something.

But then also, you know, your estrogen and stuff, so one knocks out your testosterone and the other adds estrogen and everything that happens with that.

And that was all sitting in my car, and I'd had that, you know, back home in camera and I'd had that sitting there for months.

But I didn't want to take it because I didn't want it to affect my performance, but not that it was.

It wouldn't have comeback is like doping or anything, because it was it's not it's the opposite of performance enhancing.

That I didn't want it to affect my performance and let anyone down.

And in retrospect, I probably shouldn't have gone to guitar that tournament, but you know you like, of course you are sweet, you live for and I thought I'd never do it again, like at this.

Point, I you know the I almost yeah.

Yeah, Well the IIC didn't have any regulations out, so I thought, shit, like, I'm never going to do this again, like I want to.

I want to go out on my turns.

And as it's as it turned out, and I didn't know this, the IOC came out with a new regulations three months after that tournament, like February twenty sixteen, and I was like, sweet.

I'm back, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, So how did you so?

Yes, so how did that?

How did you tell family?

How did you begin that transition?

Yeah?

I stuffed that up a couple of times.

So I remember one day we were in Katar and I was up in the pool, up on the top level of the hotel, and I remember just thinking like it came from nowhere.

I don't know where it came from, but I was just wanted just tell her now, this is my mum, because she was the one I was most worried about telling about it.

Not that look, I knew she'd be super accepting.

I just didn't want to be upset or worry, you know, like that was my biggest thing all the time, all the way through.

And so I was like, well, whyted to do it now?

And I knew in that moment I had to take that moment because if I let it pass, I wouldn't have done it because I would have been too scared again.

So I got out of the pool, went down to went down to grab my phone from my room, and just shot off this message that I thought was super concise, really concise, to the point, very well put.

I reread it later on.

It was the most rambling piece of you've ever seen.

But the message got through.

She understood what I meant, and she was back and she was she was great, like she was.

She was really supportive.

She was great.

And I didn't tell anyone else till I got home.

So Lucas came good.

I was seeing ACDC and Perth, so he wrote our flights through Perth and I touched down in Perth and I was like, all right, I don't have any of me to tell people verbally, So I'm gonna have to And that was part of it, like I just didn't have anyth me so to write something.

And I wrote this message in notes in my phone, right, and I just copy and paste and send.

But I was like, well, I'm not just going to send it point blank, right.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to message someone and message people and say hey, I need to talk to you about something, and then copy and paste this message in So I said that to my brother, said one of my brothers, I said, I need to talk to about something, and I went prepared at copy and pasted the message as he replied, my dad texted me about something totally different.

And you know how that comes up at the banner at the top, like when the message comes in.

I went and hit that, thinking rather it was my dad, and I just hit it and sent it gone.

And then I realized I sent it without the that I need to talk about.

Yeah, probably about the explainer, Yeah, yeah, I went.

So I turned my phone, I've got an ice cream, went sorry ACDC, and turned it on six hours later.

And but look, he was great.

I've never had a bad response from anyone like he's he's great.

He's so supportive.

He was a bit confused to begin with, you know, like seven year old army officer will be.

But he was so supportive and I know that, like he reached out to Kate McGregor, who was also in the army for a while and all this sort of stuff.

And my brother's really great.

So you know, I can't say I've had a negative response from anyone who matters.

So you begin hormone therapy, Am I right to say?

November twenty fifteen?

Yeah, and he publicly identify as female in May twenty sixteen.

So the ICE rules mean that you needed to have twelve months of hormone therapy.

Yeah, you get to the levels below what's at that stage, the ten animals per later level by July twenty sixteen.

Yeah.

The way the medication works, it does it almost immediately really, like so yeah, you could go three or four days on this medication, your testosterone's gone and I mean like below measurable levels, like they can't measure it.

There's that little in it.

So yeah, I was below it pretty much immediately, and really the only reason I didn't do it, like I just I guess I transition probably officially and I guess I may or something during whatever.

It was really just because I needed to give the hormones time to work and I have really sure, yes, so I needed to grow it out a bit, But that was really the only reason why did that?

Yeah, yeah, and this is around the time you start thinking I'm going to play football?

Out did that come about?

Had it?

Football?

Was that with Ainsley?

Yeah?

So football was the next year and I didn't really ever think about playing football at that point.

It's just that, you know, I mean, this is a really hard thing to go through, like anyone has brands and gone through this transition, Like you can't describe how hard it is because one you're terrified, you're na navigating new ground, but you also, you know, you lose a lot of people like you do.

Like when I say I never got a negative response from anyone who mattered, that's not to say I didn't get negative responses.

And generally it's not avert to your face like we're not supportive.

I'll tell you they're supportive, but they're not, and then they drift away and it's a really confusing time.

So with football, I just needed to meet some new people.

Like that's literally all it was.

And I when I moved to Camber in twenty eighteen, I played for Ainsley.

I went and played for Ainsley, and even that was a bit of a weird season because I went and I'd done a bit of a pre season with Eastlake and then I was working with a guy who was playing for Ainsley.

He said, I won't you just come here because like to the point, like the coach of east Slake at that time, I'm sure he's a good bloke, but he scared me.

He was insane, Like I'm sure he's a good bloke.

No, I was mental, but really I'm sure he's a really good bloke.

But he scared it out of me.

So I was like, yeah, I'm out.

I'm going to Ainsley, like why not?

And that was And then I went and did first game in a practice match actually, like I got to the club and I played a practice match in the thirds like two days later because I literally just rocked up and I really badly injured my hip and I was off for like ten weeks and came back and it was a bit of a weird season.

But they were really great people, and they were really really great people, and I was still training with like the senior squad and stuff, but you know, halfway through the set and hadn't done it pre season, in jured myself two days after getting to the club, so it was a bit of a ride off.

But but yeah, and that was it.

And I had also assistant coached an act under twelve team where there was a few Ainsley people around two and went away with it and the parents were like the parents were Angsley people.

I got to know them really well.

So so yeah, so come twenty seventeen, I'm still friends with some of these people on Facebook and stuff and those messages.

I was just like, do you reckon?

I could play?

Like I don't know, but do you reckon?

I could because I just want to meet some new people.

And they're like, yeah, come down, look for Fees.

She's the coach.

She's great, and she is she's awesome.

And I went down there and that was pretty much it.

I just went down to go meet some new people.

So yeah, I played that twenty seventeen.

I played half a season in twenty seventeen with Ainsley because I was going to Europe in the second half of the season, so like I'd had no plans on playing football, because clearly because book this trip to Europe and and I played this half a season or maybe a little bit more than half a season.

And yeah, it was in that time where the AFL W had just kicked off.

They'd been one season of it, and it was during that time going into the second season where I was and I'd been involved with like one of the act Rep teams I was playing in wager or so, I can't remember who it was against Riverine or something, I don't know, And someone from Melbourne just messaged me, and not Melbourne the club, just from Melbourne messaging and so like, oh, would you be keen and playing AfOR W And I was like, oh yeah.

Because my theory has always been I'm not going to say no to something, I would say yes too just because I'm trans Like that's stupid.

So I was like, well, if someone's came said to me five years ago, would you be keen on playing AFL Yeah.

So I was like, all right, I'll go give it a go.

So I flew down to Melbourne and I trialed with Melbourne one night.

They had a down there yep, which was good.

I sort of it sat really funny on the flight.

It was a really and even though it was only an hour, I got up and I couldn't move very well.

So we were doing the sprints and I saw it hurt my brain a bit, so I couldn't do the two k sad but you know, that was the thing they did last after the sprints, so I was like miss So they asked me back to come to the second lot they had after they called everyone down, but I was already in Europe, so I was like, sorry, guys, I can't.

But while I was in Melbourne that morning, because it all came together really quickly, Tim Hazel, who was vivid.

He was managing me.

He's like my manager cool, and so he'd lined up a meeting with Collingwood that morning and they were really keen.

Collingwood was super keen.

I think it was Maddie Jane who was there at the time.

He Umpire is that his name?

I think he was an unplied for a long time.

Yeah, he was the list manager and he was super key.

He was like, we didn't use our second category B last week.

I'd signed him now and then so I met with Collingwood and they were really keen.

And then later on I can't remember how it came about, but I had a couple of meetings with Bulldogs as well, and that was really good.

You know, Collingwood I only met with once, but I know they were super keen.

Bulldogs I met with once.

I went and had to kick out the Western Suburbs somewhere near whitt Novle.

It wasn't at witt Novle, but we went had to kick and did some marketing and stuff down there and that went pretty well.

And then I went actually into the club maybe and this is after I got back from Europe.

And then I went into the club, went through the facility is a bit, had a chapter.

Grovesey who was the coach.

It was an awesome dude.

I actually ran into him in Darwin last year.

He's a really cool guy and dumb and yeah, and yeah they were pretty keen.

So I stayed in touch with the Bulldogs quite a bit.

And yeah they were okay.

I knew.

I knew going into the draft, either Collingwood or the Bulldogs would take me.

It was just a matter of who got in first.

And I'm almost search would have been the Bulldogs.

But it was funny, like I remember having a chat to I can't remember this manager's name of the Bulldogs now.

He is a nice guy, and I remember him saying to him's like, we just have no idea where you're going to go, because there's no because in Camber they weren't recording the games at that point, there's no footage.

But so all they were really going off was having seen me in Melbourne and having a kid and doing the Melbourne the stuff of the D's because the D's weren't interested because they were like too slow, like for our game and style too slow, and you can see it.

They were going all skinny fast, like I'm not that.

So I knew Melbourne wasn't keen, but but he was saying to me and it was like, look, you could, you might go top five, you might go to the rookie draft.

We had no idea, like, we have absolutely no idea.

So it was really just going to be who got in first.

And I think it was going to be a matter of because they knew who was going to go top three.

It was Contielloy, who else was it?

There was one other I can't remember, And they're like, you could go top five, you could go rookie draft.

We have no idea, so it was it was a bit of an unknown.

But I know too like Danny Craven who used to play Securities up in Brisbane.

He knew Peter Blocher, who was he It was Tim's boss at Vivid, so I think.

And I knew Danny through handball.

His kids played handball and his daughter in law plays handball, and so I knew Danny through that.

And we'd spoken about footy a little bit previously, and he was sort of sussing out Brisbane a little bit.

But to their credit, they saw the writing on the wall and said, you know what, there might be a bit of a distraction that comes.

With this, which was which you know, you're living your car, you're sort of bouncing around between friends places, you're thinking a good chance, and then the AFL starts calling in for some meetings.

Yeah, you sort of.

Well, I think you.

Provided some data to them to show that your testosterone levels were close to ero.

So what's happening as You're approaching the draft thinking I'm going to get picked, but I'm not sure where the AFL will will allow it, knowing of course that there is no policy in place at that stage.

Hannah Mountsie should have been a shoe in to play at the elite level of the women's Aussie Rules competition, but late last year the AFL said no, deciding she was too much of a physical threat to her opponents.

Yes, it was an interesting one, so we'd already had it ticked off by the AFL.

It was all really yes, So Simon Lathlane, he was the one that was approached and here was no issues, no dramas, don't see the problems.

So you're fine.

Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, from.

Our perspective it was fine.

But then obviously he left the AFL, you know, in between us contacting him and then that draft happening, and then I don't know who took over his role, but obviously there was some conversations had and I remember I got a phone call quite a while later, because I think that was in Junal July when we'd approached him, and maybe even May.

And yeah, I got a phone call from Tanya Hosh on the Grand Final public Holiday twenty seventeen.

I remember it because it was four o'clock Friday afternoon on public holiday.

So if you've got to deliver bad news, that's when you do it.

That's the bad news time, isn't it.

Yeah.

Yeah, And I really feel for Tanya because I really think she was put up to do all the dirty work and it wasn't And I actually think she was advocating quite strongly for me to play, so I know.

So she rang me and she said, look, we've we want to review your nomination for the draft, which you know already knew that the decision has been made, but we need to go through a process is basically what I took from that.

So I was actually in Portagusta at the time because my dad was taking jobs that no one wanted in the army to stay in, so he was running the range at Porto Gusta and you know, so I've been over there for a couple of weeks just with him because my dogs are over there.

And yeah, and so I drove over to alven to meet with the a f L.

Got to give it to them.

They put me in a very very nice hotel at Docklands, so they really did spare no expensive.

Yeah that was great.

So anyway, I went to this meeting and it was it was I remember meeting with Bleirch and Tim beforehand sort of talking about it and how we go about it, and we're all sort of on the same view where it's like, I'm pretty sure this decision has already been made, but you know, let's we've got to give it our best.

I walked in there and there was no policy in place by the AFL, and our argument was, well, I've already been playing.

You already allowed me to play.

If you're gonna allow me to play camera, it makes sense that you're allowing me to play here.

And you know, I offered to them because knowing there was no process, said, look, this is the IOC policy, and our logic was it was good enough for the Olympics.

It's good enough for the AFL because the Olympics also covers rugby seven's, it covers handball, both very very physical sports.

You know, it covers everything, but particularly those two, which are probably the two most physical sports at the Olympics.

And the AFL sort of went, well, we're not the Olympics.

Our game is different.

We're gonna not use that.

So I offered, you know, all because I get tests.

I get blood tests monthly just to show my testosterones non existent, which I still do now, which is a bit silly, but and I only say it's silly because once once you had you know, all your surgery and that like you can't produce it, like I can't produce testosterone, but I still do it anyway, and as even then, like it was the same thing.

So I but I just did it because I was like, well, I'm going to get the tests anyway, because at least then I can say I've done it and I can give them something.

So I offered it to the AFL and I can't remember if they took it or not, but they weren't really interested in how we were because the way they phrased it was, let's have a chat, will work it out, like we want to hear your side of things.

But I don't think they particularly did.

Do you remember who was in the room.

Who was in the room with you at the moment.

Yeah, Josh Vandaloo was there.

I know that.

I can't remember who else.

I know Tamul was on the phone from Adelaide, and they were the main two leading it.

But you know, so they weren't really keen for what we were presenting, which is fine, like that's what it is.

And I didn't think they would take everything we said it and run with it like who would.

But we also went in with the list of because the AFLW waights aren't listed, but the heights are.

And I went, well, here's twenty girls who are my height or taller or within two or three centimeters on lists at the moment to say, look, this is not abnormal.

You know my height is not abnormal.

I can't give you the weight because that's not publicly available, but giving them what we can.

But the really interesting one and the one that really showed to me, I think the decision was made long before I got to and look, I could be wrong, But the next day I went back in and there were two on the AFL board.

At the time, there were two women on the board and I can't remember who they were.

I want to say Gabie Trainer.

Was one, and then there was NFL commissioners.

Yeah, there was someone else.

It wasn't Sam Mouston because she was with Sydney and I remember talking to her later on, but and totally unrelated.

But it was about like just Sydney pride games and stuff, so I know it wasn't her.

But they sat me in a room and and they both sat me down and they went, so, we want to know what your biggest strength is that you think your biggest strength is on the field, And I said to them, I said, look, honestly, I think I grew up playing football and I've got a background in elite sports, so I've trained and i know how to use my body.

I've trained for years, just like any number of the girls who had come across from other sports, like Chloe Dalton had come across from rugby, Georgie Parker had come across from hockey, Aaron Phillips had come across from basketball.

So I was like, I think that's a huge advantage I've been in that environment.

But also I grew up playing football, so I know how to read it and this and this, And they're like, oh, okay, but what else do you think is your biggest advantage?

I went, well, honestly, like, I'm six foot, but I actually played pretty well on the ground and I'm not taking a piss there at that time, probably not now because I'm a bit older, but at the time I was like my ability on the ground to pick up the ball and use the skills from handball to work in really confine spaces.

I was like that's my biggest skill.

And they're like, yeah, okay, it's your actual biggest skill.

And I was like, oh, I'm pretty good at contested marking, I guess, and they're like, yeah, cool, thanks, we'll see now.

And I was like, okay, so that's what they wanted to hear.

And it was just once I went to that, and I were like, they just wanted me to say I could take a contested mark to say RC look size and all this, and then I was on my way and.

That reason to be able to qualify.

Yeah, yeah, and so you know, and that was what it was.

So I went away and that was a couple of weeks so I think before I can't remember.

It felt like it was a couple of weeks, but it might have only been ten days or something before the announcement was made on whether I would be able to play.

And it was all meant to be kept confidential and stuff, and obviously it wasn't but I found out, so obviously the decision came through the day before the draft.

I can't remember what day of the draft was, like fifteen or sixteenth October.

I found out the day before the AFL.

I actually thought out through the media.

So the AFL didn't tell me before they held the press conference, or technically they did, but what had happened is they had sent me an email at like quarter to four maybe or three point thirty or whatever it was, and the press conference was held fifteen minutes later.

Yea, so I did.

I just didn't see the email because they literally sent the email and then ten to fifteen minutes later the press conference happened.

So I actually found out.

I was walking through a shopping center in Aubrey and it came up on the TV and I was like, oh cool, all right, I'm not going to play.

Thanks guys, and that was pretty much.

It's so, And what was the explanation to you?

What did they what was their rationale?

I'm still yet to receive that.

Yeah, so I never actually received it.

After the decision was made, I heard very very little from the AFL, and it was very difficult for me to have any communication with the AFL after that decision was made.

So I still haven't been given a reason, not formally anyway.

Well I haven't been given one at all, But you know, I mean I think the assumption there is you know, they I think assumption from a lot of people, is there.

They're concerned about obviously some sort of advantage that was there.

I've been told by people who were close to it that the equal concern, or even a bigger concern to that was the afl W is a year old.

We don't want this sideshow destroying it.

And they were worried about the commercial viability and the commercial impact that my playing would have on sponsors, and particularly at that time, they were using the afl W as a tool to really encourage girls to play foot junior footy, and I was kick and stuff like that.

And from what I've been told from people who are at the AFL but not involved in the decision, was that what everyone had heard was it was essentially, we don't we're worried about the commercial side of it.

We're worried about it impacting parents' decisions to allow their daughters to play junior forty or os kick in case they play against a trans person, because if we set this precedent now, we have to then let every trans person play at every level.

But you know, that was, you know, off the record, told to me by people who were at the AFL but weren't in the room.

But I've actually never received anything from the AFL about a reason.

And you became not person and on Grada, but someone they were scared of.

So they spoke to you and communicated you through lawyers, and you know, you never had the meeting you would have loved to with Andrew with Gillan McLoughlin to sort of explain your situation or to build some kind of relationship with the AFL.

Yeah, I never asked for it, but look, it's I think percerna and on Grada is definitely was definitely accurate because you know, I mean I look, maybe I lacked some tact sometimes, but if someone asked me a question, I just give an answer.

And I think maybe I was probably a bit blunt for their liking, and I think they sort of wanted me to go away.

And you know, at the time too, it was one of those things where I mean I was still during this whole thing, I was still bouncing around all different places in my car, like so I sort of needed a job and that was half the reason I went, yeah, cool, I'll play AFL, because like there's at least some money coming in.

I was somewhere to live.

Cool set back up, so you know, I had nothing to lose and I and yeah, it was interesting.

So it became the shit show that it was.

And then I ended up in Melbourne, was working in Melbourne out at Ringwood and yeah, ended up playing obviously for Darrebin the next year, which was great because I was able to And this was the confusing thing.

I was still able to play every competition but afl W.

And that's where things are.

Yeah, and that's where like, if it wasn't for that, I would have given the the idea that it was for commercial reasons, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.

But when you're allowed to play everywhere else but not afl W, it actually gives a lot of credence to that, I think.

And I played at darrab And and I loved it.

And the thing is, and this is why I say it made no sense.

Our team was full of afl LISTED players.

Also all the opposition, Like our midfield was Pasi belist O'Day Lauren Pierce in the rock who else was there?

Met McDonald was down back like Lily Meth and like it was.

A whole It was an afl W team, isn't it.

And they were all supportive of you bread.

Yeah, absolutely bad.

Yeah, they were awesome.

And my only real regret from that time is I sort of wish I'd been able to integrate myself more into the club, but I was very weary of It was such a strange situation, like because I really love those girls.

It was brilliant and the club couldn't have been better.

But I walked in everyone knew who I was.

I didn't know anyone, and I am the most controversial thing in Australia at that point, and I also didn't know.

I didn't want the girls sorted to get in trouble for being too close to me, so I sort of kept my distance a bit like get in trouble with their AFL clubs, because I know they've been things, you know, don't a comment, don't talk, So I just totally backed out.

And I think they probably thought I was being a bit aloo for arrogant or something, but it was and I just it was such an awkward thing a situation not the club, but such an awkward situation for me to be and just in general with everything in the media.

And then I didn't want to get them in trouble with their clubs and stuff by being too close to them and all that.

But I love them like it was, it was so much fun.

You know that what the AFL has obviously done with you and other rules that have changed, You're worried that that has scared some transgender athletes away from local community sport, which is obviously a great that's obviously what you're concerned about now.

Yeah, absolutely it would have would have spared them away.

Yeah, of course it has.

And it also has the other effective if you've got athletes who are trans and they you know, and they don't transition or don't do what they need to at any given time to protect their career, Like, how damaging is that to someone's health?

You know?

Like, and it does have the ability to drive people to really dark mental places.

And you know the emphasis that's on mental health right now and has been for years, but you know, with you know, it's horrific.

So I think, you know, if we're actually genuine about mental health and all that sort of stuff, you would make it a lot more expense across the board.

What's your what's your message to the new IOC boss Kirsty Coventry.

So she says there is overwhelming support amongst IOC members to protect the female category in what, as The Guardian says, is a significant shift and its gender eligibility policy.

So a task force of scientists and international federations all set up to come up with a new policy.

Hannah, what's your what's your message to Kirsty Coventry.

Look, I think there is pressure and support, but it's from a again, a vocal minority.

I think we know that Feena, who's a swimming governing body, are obviously you know, they've made their bands on trans people, as has the IBAF, who are two very like swimming and athletics, like how big is that in the Olympics, So they're obviously key stakeholders.

There's obviously huge pressure from the United States government there, you know, as hosts of the next Olympics, and they're very anti trans anyway, and from the UK.

But I think the thing is, though it's very much a problem only in a select few countries and really the English speaking world.

You know, I think the evidence is there and that if there was this problem of trans people having an unfair advantage, we would know it by now in the results, but we don't have it.

I come back to the doping example I used before.

You know, you can't ban like unless you're going to if you think that people who do are allowed to compete again after they've served their ban.

You can't put a blanket ban on trans people because they haven't done anything wrong.

And also you're saying too that you believe there's no advantage from the doping after four years.

So I think that's a key point.

I think as well, people are very picky in the research that they use at any given time.

So if I look at Carsta Semnia, for example, the IAAF commissioned research years ago into testosterone suppression and what and the effects that it has on performance.

What it showed is that testosterone suppression significantly reduces performance and brings it into the female range.

So and they use that specifically to force cast To Semenia to take testosterone suppressing medication because they believe that would bring her and level the playing field.

They're now ignoring that research because if they acknowledge it, it means they have to allow trans people to compete, and so I think that's a real issue.

But it also, you know, I mean, if you think that people are good at spot just because they're trans you know, it's such a simplistic view.

And I use myself as an example, right like, or you know, I'm thirty, I'm thirty five, and you know, obviously there is some natural ability there, you know, like you have to but work ethic is so much more than talent.

And we've all seen examples of people with all the talent in the world who don't put the work in and fall by the wayside and don't go anywhere.

So you know, from my perspective, I look at I'm thirty five years old.

I'm still trying to innovate with new shots that I'm bringing in in handball for example.

You know, I'm stealing them from cricket, you know, bringing it out in the back of the hand to lob keepers and stuff from different positions, and you know, and that's something I've sort of worked on over the last year.

You know, you're still in the gym every day training all that sort of thing, and if you're not putting in the work, you don't get anywhere.

But it's also like the mental side of performance, like you need to know your game inside out, and that's something I've put a lot of work into is knowing, you know what, I'm going to get a lot of attention the first fifteen minutes of the game while they're fresh, I'm probably going to be pretty quiet because I've got so much attention on me.

Don't stress the last forty five minutes when they're tired, because handball goes for an hour.

When they start to tire and space opens up, that's my time, So you know, like and knowing who to target, what times of the game to take, Like, there's so much more that goes into it that people just don't acknowledge.

So I think, yeah, there's so many reasons, but I'd just say you, I think if you're going to put a blanket band in place.

The other thing it does too, is the Olympic movements meant to be sport for all, right, in this instance, it's not if you put a blanket ban in it.

It's sport for cisgender people and transgender people and and you know, intersex people are then excluded, and so suddenly the Olympic movement loses a lot of credibility as well.

Just your thoughts, we better let you go.

But your thoughts on the local communities has been to trans debate with the netballer and the Mountain and Central districts.

You know, it's the sex discrimination that comes into play.

There other teams complaining, well, you can understand that people don't understand.

You can understand that some people are scared about it all, but it seems to be trickling down all the way to the bottom, which is which is worrying for trans people.

Yeah.

Absolutely, And I think I do very much understand that people don't like that's totally fine and normal.

Like I don't like, there's so many things that I don't know about that, you know.

I mean, I don't expect people to be experts in trans issues and know everything going on if they're not affected by it, like who would be.

But in this instance, like I think, what does happen and what is happening is people are choosing to weaponize the systems that are in place to actually attack trans people with protection.

So and that was something I raised with the AFL very early on as well, you know, I raised it.

I said, look, if you've got these you know, complaints procedures in place to say this person is not safe, we don't want to play against this person.

What safeguards have you got in place to make sure that people aren't just going, shit, we're playing finals soon, we don't want to play against this person, and you know we're seeing that happen obviously.

Look, I don't know what the goal is with the netball thing, I know of it.

I can't say that that in that instance is one hundred percent what it is.

But I know that those systems across the board are open to abuse and there definitely need to be checks and balances in place.

And yeah, I think too, like not leaving it to people who you know, I mean, it's really unfair on local leagues and stuff and league presidents and stuff because they're not the people who should be making these decisions because they don't know.

It's unfair on them too.

So I think it needs to all these decisions need to go to a higher body.

Is someone who's dedicated to this specifically as part of their role, that's it.

Or I actually think the whole thing should be taken over by Sport Integrity Australia if I'm honest, Like, that's probably the best way to do it because it's it's neutral from all Sports Integrity is their thing and that's who I would like to see take over it, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Last one from us.

Has it all been worth it?

The fight, the dramas, you know, the drain on your mental health to still be able to play support at the highest level as a transperson, do you know what?

Like I the fight is hard, Like I can't what makes me good as an athlete is also the thing that's probably my downfall outside of that, and that is I can't walk away from a fight like I enjoy it.

I enjoy the confrontation, I guess sometimes in the competition, and I need to pull myself from that.

Not to say that I enjoy going on TV or something and complaining or whatever, like that's not what it's about.

But you know, I've had such a good run, Like you know, ten years ago in Katar, I thought I was done.

I've gone and got to meet some amazing people, got to do some really cool thing.

Yeah, there's obviously been challenges to it, but you know, I also wonder what things would be like like I just say yes to everything, you know, and it's yeah, it's just it's been really cool.

Like I mean, I got to play tennis, I've never played tennis in my life.

I've got to play tennis on finals day at the Strain and Open.

That's pretty cool, you know, playing against Casey Dake where that didn't go well, but you know, like it's it's it's just it's you get to do some really cool things outside of just that.

I get to go play sport in front of all those people and the competition or whatever.

So yeah, I'd do it again.

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