[SPEAKER_02]: Today on the Relationship Innovation podcast, EJ did not know we were doing this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was in the hot seat.

[SPEAKER_02]: I interviewed his avoidance of avoidance is not bad.

[SPEAKER_02]: However, it can keep us separate, especially during difficult times.

[SPEAKER_02]: So give today a listen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it was very vulnerable, cathartic, eye opening, and we're hoping that you can get something out of it too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Tara Cohen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Tara, my name is EJ.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, EJ.

[SPEAKER_02]: So today is kind of different.

[SPEAKER_02]: We actually just recorded another podcast on like being really attuned with your partner, but also being able to say what you need and that your partner is receptive to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so right after that podcast ended, I had this really great idea and EJ has no idea [SPEAKER_02]: Well, call it that you're kind of in the hot seat, but I don't want to call it hot seat.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to call it like wifey reflection seat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I really want to get to know your avoidance.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: If that feels okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of ironic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, do you want to talk about your avoidance?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I like to avoid my avoidance.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well I want this to be organic and I want this to be I just want to come in with curiosity and understanding because I know it's something that our relationships still struggles with you still struggle with that came out in our last podcast and so I want to kind of just get to know you better and I also want to be able to take this conversation and hopefully like the therapist part of me like uses because we get a ton of people whether it's in our center, [SPEAKER_02]: I have a partner who avoids, who disconnects, I have no idea how to get through to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's really important, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't think it's avoidance out of maliciousness.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's avoidance out of protection, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But if we're not curious and open with our partner, and we come at them like, why are you avoiding?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm just going to go back more into my turtle shell.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So do you feel comfortable having this conversation?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I promise like it's not going to be long.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just like I'm just really curious because So in our last podcast episode, you are saying that you and I'm really good at saying like here's how this could have gone better for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here's how I need you to support me and you said like, I don't even know what I need.

[SPEAKER_02]: So because I'm like, why don't you just tell me how I could do things differently?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it used to think like, oh, he just like doesn't want to speak up still.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you are saying, you thought that was cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I was trying to be patient because you're still in like your little avoidant trend and that's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not that it's a trend.

[SPEAKER_02]: But but now I know that you truly don't know what you need.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess my like my first question to you is like during difficult moments.

[SPEAKER_02]: like what happens inside of you when you and that's just go between us because that's when I feel like that's when I sense it the most like when there's some disagreement when there's some tension when there's stress when I'm coming at you and like whatever tone mine is like what happens inside of you?

[SPEAKER_01]: So like physically when there's confrontation between the two of you like in my body I feel like heaviness in my heart but also like almost like a like a nervousness in my stomach like it feels like like a little a little puky not like full-on puky but just like a little like uh [SPEAKER_01]: and there's like a little bit of like a sense of dread.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like dread.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like even at the, like, is it, is it when there's something negative happening or is it a tone?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like just mourning, we had that interaction, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It was about the summer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and you had a reaction that was like for me indicative of like, oh, here comes conflict.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's very, really.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, yeah, like, I just felt instantaneously heavy, little sick to my stomach, and then like, thoughts of like, oh, no, like, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I say now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's a big, like, what do I say now?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do I do?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I do?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I do now?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you so medically you feel sick to my stomach heavy in my heart and then you kind of go into like a a frantic almost cognitions like what do I do now?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little more like it's a little more like dissociative a little bit more like I'm kind of blank like [SPEAKER_01]: And you've described it, and I hate the description when you say it, you're like, oh, you're like a deer and headlights, which feels I don't like the way it feels, but there's definitely some accuracy there where I'm just like I freeze a little bit [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so, so this is great, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, let's just like little therapist teaching moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of why do you keep walking away avoiding?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's help me understand at the moment of stress, whatever that stress is, whatever that content is, whatever that trigger is, help me understand what happens inside of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now I'm getting a better understanding, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And are you feeling defensive as I'm talking to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening inside of you is so much better than why do you keep doing this or why are you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, why are you a deer and head like this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're not because you're not like commenting on what I'm doing or that I'm doing it wrong You're just trying to understand what's happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: So then so in those moments You're already struggling with like what do I do now?

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel sick like how do I know like what's my cue that like you're in that place?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because sometimes I don't know because you're so good at looking normal, like do you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: That I wouldn't know that in that moment you're feeling sick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well for me it's for in this dynamic with me it's hard because like with you when you're telling me what you need.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's about the fact that you're struggling with something you're activated and it's just like you're just telling me what you need in that moment and I'm generally not activated in those moments my activation is almost not always but frequently associated with your activation that when someone else someone else I care for gets I think they're mad at me [SPEAKER_01]: that's when I get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, it's hard because it's like, I don't know, like, I don't trust that you are able in that moment to be there for me because you're the source.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, I'm asking you to do something to be there for me when I see you honestly in that moment as a threat.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I hear right that you don't trust that I could handle it if you did say something or that you're I don't know about handle that's not that's not in my vernacular around this but like it's it's like I don't trust that That you're gonna be there for me because because I got you because in that moment I am You're what's making me feel uncomfortable [SPEAKER_02]: Right, my reaction.

[SPEAKER_02]: So hold on, can I do it there?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really quite, because that was huge.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't trust that you'll be supportive because I'm the one who's reactive.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't trust that I could be able to support you in the way that you need as a wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm already in it, like, I've already done something wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: I should have just shut up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so that's a big one for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I should have just freaking, [SPEAKER_01]: I should, like, how do they say that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you are very linked to, like, to you are the reason why I'm upset.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just pissed you off.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So first I'm thinking, like, that podcast, we just did with Leanne on individuation and differentiation, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The idea that, like, the more differentiated we are, like, from our family of origin and from our [SPEAKER_02]: And to my partner like that, they can have emotions and that you're still okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: That whatever my emotional reactivity is, that you can still have yours and you can own that and it's okay instead of having to avoid or walk away.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, I'm understanding in the therapist realm that there's still something that happens inside of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't feel free to express your emotions because you don't think someone else can support you, you don't trust someone else can support you in the way you need.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's just more therapeutic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not as differentiated from that part of yourself, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because you've always been the caretaker and all of your relationships since you were a child.

[SPEAKER_01]: either the caretaker or just like I'm just met.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's, I feel like I'm the caretaker of myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like, like, I'm the only only person that's going to keep me safe in this interaction is me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't depend upon you to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So why would I ask for you to meet my need if I don't trust that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what keeps happening?

[SPEAKER_02]: What's the diet with you staying in that story?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm the only one that can handle myself and care take myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what happens between the two of us in our dynamic?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it totally like fractures us.

[SPEAKER_01]: It separates us.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes a difficult moment instantaneously.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're just like we're not on the same team anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, do you trust that I want to support you?

[SPEAKER_01]: in the big picture, yes, but not in the moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but in the big picture.

[SPEAKER_02]: In the big picture, in the moment, something else is very triggered.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's very unconscious, and it's very cold.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in the big picture, like, yeah, of course, Tyra wants to support me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she's been telling me for years to like speak up, and she wants to know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so how would I know, right, that this is all happening?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, during me, I'm getting activated.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe it, oh my gosh, I can't believe it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, how do I know like what's like a sign where you can theoretically like or like because I wanted what would you see in me Yes, what would I see you because I want to know oh my gosh, this is a moment where he's he's I think I pull away.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I [SPEAKER_02]: But how do I know that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what's a sign that you pull away?

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't make eye contact.

[SPEAKER_02]: I contact, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, and that's what makes these moments so tricky, is like, also oftentimes, me not being able to make eye contact triggers you more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so then it makes me more, you're like, because you do this thing like sometimes when I'm in these moments.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I just did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I drop, like, I stop making eye contact.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you do this thing, like, like, you're trying to get my eye contact.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that makes me feel even more like, okay, some safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're feeling unsafe.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're feeling mistrustful.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're feeling what I'm hearing is just like, all alone.

[SPEAKER_02]: In this experience, like, I have to like, what did I do?

[SPEAKER_02]: I just did this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have to kick your check myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I get out of here?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean the way it feels internally for me is like almost like I'm instantaneously placed like in the middle of a labyrinth and I'm trying to figure out like [SPEAKER_01]: It's weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like how do I get out of this situation and half like how do I get her out of this situation?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's different.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's different from the childhood stuff like where I didn't feel like I was trying to get that other person out of it I was just trying to get out of it myself or just get through it with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay Well, like how do I how do I basically and some ways back up like because like this morning I said something [SPEAKER_01]: that triggered you, and then I was like, instantaneously, like, okay, it was shit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I fucked up, I shouldn't have said that, like, and it's a mix between what, like, well, how, how, how could I have known not to say that?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then how do I get her to not be mad at me anymore forcing that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm already thinking about I knew what I was going to do 20 minutes later when you were down I had a plan in my mind I go to her and I tell her hey I'm in this I want the exact same thing you do like I'm already planning how to get you not mad at me yeah but I know it's not going to happen instantaneously so I basically just feel like I have to survive for 20 minutes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay so first of all what's it like to talk about right now?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's vulnerable and uncomfortable, but it's also enlightening, like because like what I just said.

[SPEAKER_01]: feels like a big piece that ultimately at the end of the day I have this thing when people are mad at me that I feel like in the moment I just have to survive like anywhere from 10 minutes for two to two hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm instantaneously and like you just have to survive.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's very much like you said with the turtle shell is the easiest way to survive is just create some [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, thank you for sharing and for like being a part of this conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just want you to know that I, I had a not brought this up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would never have known all of that stuff happens for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, I would have just been a whole series.

[SPEAKER_02]: ship on my shoulder like oh he's still freaking withdrawing even after all the work we do and all the therapists we've seen and the therapy we do for other couples but I'm not because I'm like this is something that you really struggle with.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a protective mechanism like really you just said for survival but I really want to support you in feeling safe with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care about anybody else [SPEAKER_02]: right and so I know that I can't just snap my fingers and be like oh I just tell me everything now but what like if you could think of this like because you start to feel unsafe and that you have to like plan ahead and how do I make this not get worse and how do I like right like what would ideally like what would support look like and how would I even start to do that because you [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think if I saw you go and you took a breath and you said, I'm triggered and I'm upset about what I just heard, but I want to come back to you and talk about that because it's important to me, but I want to talk about later, but I don't want you to go away.

[SPEAKER_02]: So say that one more time.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you took a breath.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so if I saw that, if I saw that you were like deactivating yourself slightly, but what I let me kind of just twisted here, what if I wasn't like let's just because I really want to even like because I would if you're still mad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because this is about you like what is it that I could do for you if you're in that spot because you're I don't know how you can help me if you're still mad and activated.

[SPEAKER_02]: See, so that's going to, that's where we get stuck though, because let's just say, because my job is to help you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to support you in not going into freeze flight flight freeze.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of if I'm taking a breath or not, that you can start building trust that even when I get my shit together 20 minutes later, and I'll take my deep breaths, then in the moment you don't have to go to flight flight free.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, then you're saying that I just [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying, how can not, don't focus on like what behavior I could do?

[SPEAKER_02]: How could I support you, like when you're in flight fight freeze?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm confused because you asked me what you could do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I told you and then you said no, it's not for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I get that like the deep breathing for me and like taking accountability and say, hey, don't leave you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're still here because I'm saying that's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's like a healthy coping skill for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm emotionally regulated, which makes you feel more safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what if I want to make you feel safe when I'm still triggered?

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to not go and deflate fight freeze.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to know that it's going to be OK and that you don't have to have a plan in 20 minutes to make sure things are OK.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying, would you be like, is there something?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if I really became an expert in you and I recognize, oh, he's not giving eye contact right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: That means he's in his.

[SPEAKER_02]: flight-flight-free's nervous system response, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We guard this up like what I'm doing externally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can I just say, hey, I'm sensing this as happening and I want you to know I love you?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you can do that though if you're still...

What would make you...

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm telling you, and it's, and you're not liking what I'm telling you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's not that I'm not liking that because I get that like me saying, hey, honey, I'm really triggered right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to take a deep breath.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's like all focused on me and what I can do.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not, it's not because it signals to me that you're able to put your stuff aside for a moment and be present for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I actually wrote down these questions on my phone, like, particularly in case we got caught up in this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't want this to be about me at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want this to be like, how can I, yeah, get out of my own way, especially in those moments and like know what's happening through you internally.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I asked these questions just in case we got tripped up you guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Come in with a plan, because I did this when.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I asked what's happening inside of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was my first question.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think we kind of discussed this already, but like when you do that, when you said you dissociate and you kind of go inward, like what does that do for you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you said it kind of keeps you in a survival mode, but like what is like help me understand that better?

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel more in control.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm not going to make it worse because it feels to me like, it feels like I have to be like very careful in that moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, I might say something that's gonna make it worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it feels to me like doing nothing is safer than doing something.

[SPEAKER_02]: So avoidance is way more protective.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then doing the other thing, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're seeing it as protection and I want to help you see that protection and assurance that there's less escalation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, because we'll then the other piece is like, I reject you if you're like, you are protecting yourself from rejection or increased conflict.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what's happening, not rejection, increased conflict.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but increased conflict makes you feel what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's out of control, like it's gonna get even more out of control.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which is what's the belief, like that you've done something wrong or [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what's the belief?

[SPEAKER_01]: The belief is sort of like, I am powerless.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't have any, I don't have control.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm out of, this is that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am out of control, this is out of control.

[SPEAKER_02]: right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let me just re go back to this question that I've not asked you because I think it might help get us to the next piece is if naming what you need feels overwhelming right like you're saying I don't I go within I care take myself right if naming what you need feels overwhelming what's one small first step I could look for for myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the only thing that comes to mind is just saying to myself, like, I'm saying if I'm, this is okay, this isn't my fault.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like those are the things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's like, it's still weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's still like internal dialogue.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the only thing I come up with, like I don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: what would feel ideal like just like from whom for for you like if instead of being in this avoidance protection right and in your like I've got to stay this way because otherwise it's going to get out of control and whatever like what do you want if you like you truly trusted me just me not anybody else in that whole wide world [SPEAKER_02]: just me that you didn't have to be in control, that it would be okay no matter what.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what would you want it to look like in moments of tension and conflict because we're gonna have them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an emotional roller coaster man.

[SPEAKER_02]: all the time, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm working on it, trying to like repair and as much as I can.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what would it look like for you instead of holding that shit all together in those moments, having to control it and plan for it and go inward and isolate and avoid and make sure everybody's okay, including me, but not you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would look like just freedom.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would just look like, [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I said that thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would be like not judging myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't be filling responsible.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would just be like, oh, she's, she's mad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It gets okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would be just like, I don't have to control this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, say the opposite of I don't have to control this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to because you're going to free.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am free.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can be me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can be me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am free.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was my truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: That moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do anything wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got it right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was just those were just my words.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't swear curse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just said something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, what do you think the next part would be between us?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because now it's like, if you're feeling out of control and things are just going to go crazy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you're avoiding, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Then that keeps us separate.

[SPEAKER_02]: The other option is you being vulnerable, you trusting that it's safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: What could happen?

[SPEAKER_02]: I could still use my shit, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like because you're still safe and I'm allowed to be me and I gotta get my shit together.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's some accountability here on me, like you said.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be nice if you could take a deep breath.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be nice if you could absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then if I refuse to do that and I keep torturing you in that way and don't create an emotionally safe environment, that's one thing, but you gotta give me the chance.

[SPEAKER_02]: the only way I can feel like I'll have a chance is if you even like, hey, Tara, I gotta let you know this moment happened today and instead of being in this thing that I do, of freezing, figuring it out 20 minutes, I was saying I was safe and that we can handle this and that I can handle this and that I can be vulnerable with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because now I know internally, you're trying to do something different, it's gonna take a little bit to change because it's been your instinct, probably for a really long time, [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm going to know that like you're working on that, I'll continue to work on because I heard those words.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to like calm yourself down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like not all the time will be able to, but I want you to regard this of what I look like, externally, I want you to be like, [SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can handle this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's not your job to keep me emotionally regulated.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is your job to support me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Just like it's my job to support you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And do you know that EJ in those moments?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're also emotionally dysregulated.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel powerless too.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's only so much I can do because I need you to do that work too.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I know that you're doing that work, but I just wheat.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the thing with someone who's more right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more demonstrative and I say everything that I need and then some and you go very within and you have this whole process by yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want you to and I know it'll be clunky and I know that you'll still like mistrusted but like I really want you to just try with me and just see what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because what I'm hearing is really what I need to do is, I just need to assure myself that I can be me and I didn't get anything wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how do I bring you in on that?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's my confusion, like, like, how do I...

[SPEAKER_01]: So like this morning, I said that thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got mad, I instantaneously sort of forms.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in that moment, I say, [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, honey.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no way you would do it in that moment here in like that maybe two hours three hours 20 minutes that you come and say tear I want you to know I did this differently instead of going internally and I wanted to and my beliefs were there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to tell you what happened for me and I actually know that like I don't have to like have some grand plan to prevent you from being upset in the future that like you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then I just like internally inside my head I say my perception is she's mad at me for what I said and that's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, we always are going to trigger each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to need more than that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, but if that, I'm trying to understand, like, what?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is my, I mean, this is kind of why you're in the hot seat.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you, what?

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where, like, I think it's hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: It might be more difficult for you because you don't know what you need.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very subtle because you're saying in those moments, what you really want ideally is to feel free.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I want to feel free.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to feel like it's my fall.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to feel like I'm like, I don't want to take on all the responsibility of maintaining the mood structure of our relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how does one shift that?

[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, here's what's really confusing for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, and I could totally be getting this wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you tell me, like, okay, when you get activated, you're like, honey, I need you to come up to me and just put your hands on my face and tell me that everything is okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: You show me you can handle it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then what we're talking about is like, in that moment where I need something, I need to just talk to myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it feels.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't quite.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you just said, like, tell it to me like 20 minutes later.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm trying to create strategies, you, like, I know for me what I need.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know I need you to come to me, like in lean and be like, it's okay, we got this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is you need, I just don't know what it is, so I'm kind of thinking of strategies, because I can't tell you that has to come from you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're the one that feels unsafe in those moments.

[SPEAKER_02]: All I can say is, I'm here to support you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know what's happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to feel safe with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have to really understand what is it that you know that you want to feel free.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what does that mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be anything like maybe you do need me to come in and just give you a hug like it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't just say like, say like, I'm triggered, but I still love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is a need in the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm triggered, but I totally still love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm triggered.

[SPEAKER_02]: I still love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to help you feel like okay she's she's upset about that, but it's just like you're saying it that you need me to say it's all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We got this we're going to get through it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like okay like do you believe that's true?

[SPEAKER_02]: When I ask you for that, when I say, hey, and I need you to come to me and say, we're gonna be okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've got that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You believe that's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when I come to you and say, hey, I know I'm triggered, but we're still okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: You believe that will be true?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, because I know it, but in the moment I don't feel it, I know it, I don't feel it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because yeah, because I'm triggered, I'm triggered and like, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm triggered into the opposite.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're kind of saying the same thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: For sure, we're both really triggered, even though mine's demonstrative and yours is internal, we both need each other to come and say, like, we got this, should it's gonna be okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, that's it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't that crazy?

[SPEAKER_02]: Now I know what you need.

[SPEAKER_02]: You need the same thing I do.

[UNKNOWN]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's the execution because you see like I struggle in the execution of doing it from you and I think that you will struggle a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course I will, but no, I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't want anything like.

[SPEAKER_01]: crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to know like, yeah, I'm upset.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm upset.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we still got this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love you still.

[SPEAKER_01]: We know we're, we'll figure this out.

[SPEAKER_02]: We both want the same things and that's what like, all right people listening who might have avoidant partners who very unconsciously at the core of them literally have a mistrust that nobody can sue them and take care of them and support them except themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: if your partner is willing to trust the other partner, the intimate partner, even though it'll be clunky, even though there will be times where I will totally get it wrong, there's freedom within it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will keep you posted because now I know instead of deer and headlights, I'll still see that all of the time and I'm not going to use that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now I know you're having a response, a response of mistrust and internal response where you feel unsafe, [SPEAKER_02]: And I am not going to trigger that anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to come in and I'm going to be like, hey, I know this is uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_02]: We love each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've done nothing wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've done nothing wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're just triggered right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to differentiate the hell out of ourselves together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know if anybody's ever done that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm going to try.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to try, but has anyone ever set down with you and asked why you go internally and withdraw the way you do?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, I think you've, I mean, I give you credit like you've definitely tried.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, but I mean, and I'm going to keep trying because we spent like we spent 35 minutes, you know, and like how often [SPEAKER_01]: do we spend 35 minutes or where like, yeah, you know, and I felt triggered at times and that's just like, I feel like I'm not getting heard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I definitely felt that, you know, so I felt triggered but we like stuck with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel some release, like, I definitely felt that avoidant part of myself coming up and just being like, okay, just like, I can tell her what she wants to hear.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then she'll get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I stuck with it and I kept pushing back because I think that's the same thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I do the same thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You tell me what you need.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I...

[SPEAKER_01]: You know struggle with it and I think like sometimes you keep pushing and I think sometimes you probably do the same thing where you're just like screw He's he's never gonna do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like yeah, and that's what I was feeling at times.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like I feel like I'm telling her what she needs And it's just like slippery slope also between yeah, I mean, I think that was a sticking point and Google was like some of it is like really just my responsibility of like [SPEAKER_01]: showing up in a different way, but then some of it is like your responsibility, and I know me and knowing like, well, shit, I'm not like, you know, because remember we used to have these fights where you would be like, you keep telling me you're a good guy because in these moments like a lot of times, like, I feel like you think I'm not a good guy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know, but when you say, I feel like you know me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like because of the avoidant tendencies, I really truly don't know you do n't typical time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm getting to know you, you're being more vulnerable now, but it's really hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when you say, I know you like I truly don't in those times.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that you have such a mistrust that you have to do it on, and that you're having this game plan for 20 minutes down two hours down.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do that constantly in my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can think I was driving home and it says nothing to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about last night, a conversation I'm going to have was somebody else sometime in the next three weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's another person I can think about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I have to have this conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll probably be in about three months.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm constantly doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some of it's functional.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: we gain plan for our life, but then there's some of it that's like high-view dysfunctional and relationship with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I'm just going to say the pushback that you got from me, like if I can just be honest, like I know parts of you and I know that you want everyone to feel okay and like you don't want to ruffle the right to like, [SPEAKER_02]: orchestrate that everybody's good and like the part that was on I was pushing you back on like is there is going to be many, many times that people lose their shit and it is not your responsibility to fix it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you kept going like if you didn't know hang on one second, let me just finish this because I get it, I get why, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because you can get uncomfortable and you avoid [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, whether it's just with me, it doesn't have to be about anybody else.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to be okay, even if I'm not okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to be okay, even if I'm not okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to have that source of autonomy and security and trust within yourself and us that even when I'm not okay, it's not your fault.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not a bad person.

[SPEAKER_02]: You haven't done anything wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just tripped up on my own anxieties, and that's for me to regulate too, but for us to support each other in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that was that pushback you kept getting for me too, like, but what if I'm not okay?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know the things are going to help you to alleviate that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I really heard when I'm taking away from this conversation and I'm sure people are like, okay, now is that like, we both get reactive and defensive and we both feel alone and we don't feel supported in those moments of conflict that just coming in and say, we've got this for okay, a reminder, like let's do this differently, because we both want to feel really safe with each other even when we feel awful internally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I got you babe.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got us and we're going to follow up on this.

[SPEAKER_02]: How was it to have this conversation today uncomfortable?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate you.

[SPEAKER_01]: frustrating at times, liberating at times, like, freeing at times, just like saying things and like, it felt really safe because I feel like I was allowed to push back without you getting frustrated at me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so like, I need some of that space, like that sometimes I can like, [SPEAKER_01]: get guy can push back and that you can handle it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it, it, it, it gives me, it's trust building, like, I can be confused or I can not be understanding what's going on and that that's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was like, yeah, it was, it was hard, but also like liberating and, and the, and the lightning.

[SPEAKER_02]: and we just keep building upon these moments and we would love to hear your thoughts, experience feedback on the conversation we just had, I had E.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the wifey reflection seat, not that I'd see talking about his avoidance.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I understand that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So much better, I love your avoidance piece because I love that he protected you for so long.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't want him to protect you for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's all.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I love that part of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a beautiful part of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Got me through some shit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but not with me anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to like, we're going to recognize he's there.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: We recognize.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, we don't shoot him away.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a beautiful part of you, but recognize he's there, but he just can't come in between us because your heart's bigger than that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And your heart wants to feel free.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where we're going.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're doing kind of parts for a great here IFS.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's awesome stuff, but your heart is bigger than that part of you that avoidance, but that avoidance has protected you and got you through many times.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that part of you too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't like it when it ruffles with us, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll acknowledge it, like, you're here avoidance.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're here, but I also need EJ, I want him to be free.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much for listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you avoidance for being apart here today.

[SPEAKER_02]: We really acknowledge everything you've done here, but we're gonna let EJ be in charge.

[SPEAKER_02]: As always, thank you so much for listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Take care of yourself, take care of each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just singing on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you