[SPEAKER_02]: Today on the Relationship Renovation podcast, we are talking about a dynamic that a lot of couples fall into and that is sex becoming transactional.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not sexy, it's not fun, but we talk to you today about how you can rebuild that connection in a really organic way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am Tara Kerwin.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my name is E.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: Kerwin, and I think that this topic we're exploring today, we're going to jump right into it because it's a good one, it's an important one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I can always tell [SPEAKER_02]: when the topic is going to be like something that's super useful for couples when there's a little tension or difficulty between you and I even like sort of planning the episode and I think that that tension actually helps because we have some like different perspectives around this or at least [SPEAKER_02]: we've been in different positions in this topic, and it's around physical intimacy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It involves emotional, but it's really looking at this idea of sex beginning to feel transactional in a relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: That it's a reward system.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you do this and you do it really well, I'll give you sex.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we're doing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Tara actually had the idea for [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I am beginning the intimacy series with one of my couples yesterday and it just stood out and I was like, oh my gosh, we have to do an episode on this tomorrow because this was yesterday and you know the male partner in the relationship said like I've been doing really good and I've been vulnerable and [SPEAKER_00]: I've been doing everything that she wants of me, and we haven't had sex in three weeks, and I was like, oh, like I just had that gut thing, like, oh, okay, like there's still tension around sex, and it being transactional, and so that's kind of what gave me the idea, because we, [SPEAKER_00]: processed it in the session.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a difficult session, but they came out of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, my gosh, we have to talk about this because this is why there's still tension there.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is why she's so relieved when she gets her period because she doesn't have to worry about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's not normal, but it is normal.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why we're doing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It came out of an experience I had with one of my couples that were starting the intimacy series with and we also know that like that's where a lot of blocks start to happen when couples start talking about their intimacy.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's just like these big blocks and so the more blocks we can remove and psychoeducate and share our own experiences like that's what we want to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: because the on-healthy dynamics that are created when sex is used and as a reward system or transactional are many, but we're going to talk about a few.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, you know, the first thing it does is it just sets up a, it sets up a lot of tension.

[SPEAKER_02]: because in it, there's this idea that if I do this, then I will get that, that if I'm not getting it, I'm being punished, if I am getting sex, then I'm being rewarded.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then it becomes like this idea of like, we've already used the word, it's like transactional.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then, and there's always in a transactional, there's like a boss and an employee, a parent and a child, you know, it's like, it's just not a healthy, equal dynamic within a couple.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to share this because it's not intentional and it's not conscious.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of this is unconscious.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, my couple yesterday, it wasn't like, oh, like, I've been really vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was just this perceived organic like, oh, well, I'm trying to do everything I can to make us feel more connected.

[SPEAKER_00]: So isn't that just the outcome of it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And because they haven't talked about it, right, it's like they're doing all of the things but they're not talking about their physical intimacy, they're not being transparent with each other, it starts to become very unconscious, which is then what creates the tension.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think also what it does is it actually is it's counterproductive like I think at the end of the day it creates a lot of pressure from for both people.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it actually ends up lowering desire right because what is like organic and sexy about like if I do A, B and C, then I get D.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that is, you know, that's kind of the bottom line vibe that it starts to create.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, Tara is saying, it's like, it's like just such a natural dynamic.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because especially we see couples come in and we've certainly felt this the same where like, you know, say, one person is like, gosh, you're like, I just miss like us our physical connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we used to have such a great sex life and it was so fun and it was playful.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other person is like, well, you know, yeah, but then, but we don't go out on dates and we don't talk and and so then the so then it seems just extremely natural then that they're like, okay, well, if I start asking you out on dates, [SPEAKER_02]: and 20.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really work on being emotionally present around the house and check in with you and share my emotions because you're that's what you're saying you're wanting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well then you're naturally just going to want to have sex with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when that doesn't happen, especially I think we get impatient when it doesn't happen in the timeline that we want it to happen, then we're like, well, what's the frickin' point?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing this stuff and yet my need is still going on mute.

[SPEAKER_00]: And let me just say, both partners here are, again, responsible for this dynamic because let's just say this is right, you and I, okay, well, now I'm expecting you to be emotionally available, consistent planning day nights.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't, well, now I'm going to punish you by not having sex with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: So not only is it a reward system, it's a punishment system, because if you're not doing all the things I'm expecting you to do, and again, this is internal, because I'm not saying, like, hey, let's talk about what happened today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell you, like, what needs were met not, no, we don't do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now I'm like, well, he totally missed the mark on this one, so.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I'm not saying that we do that now, and it is unconscious, but we used to do that all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why would I give him sex if he hasn't taken me on a date in four months?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm no things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what happens is now we've externalized sex, and now sex becomes this dark cloud of tension.

[SPEAKER_00]: over our relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the one thing we are trying to dissolve.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want it to be this dark cloud or this source of tension.

[SPEAKER_00]: We want it to be this organic, loving connection.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the closest you can be to your person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so the more we can help ourselves and you guys understand, [SPEAKER_00]: What healthy physical intimacy is and how it can very quickly hijack us into something that doesn't feel good that Makes us have expectations and then we're constantly disappointed like then there's just a ton of grief around it And now we don't even know how to connect anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've been there.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we're doing this episode today, and we know that some people it's going to be controversial We know we're gonna hear from many listeners like please we want to we learn from each other That's our relationship renovation community and we love it again our job is to like talk about how do we have these discussions around intimacy and every realm So it feels really natural and organic for us, and it's not a reward punishment system [SPEAKER_00]: where then everyone's disappointed and everyone's having expectations that are not realistic at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the two probably most common dynamics that just naturally feed back into this transactional approach to sex, first of all, are just the high desire partner.

[SPEAKER_02]: and the low desire partner, that oftentimes that high desire partner is sort of like trying to figure out how do I get this, this need met, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And the lower desire partner, [SPEAKER_02]: You know, oftentimes it's searching for stuff internally, is searching for this connection with the partner that might reignite that desire with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the natural conversation is like, okay, you're not feeling attracted to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not feeling desire towards me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what would help with that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it can even come from, [SPEAKER_02]: I think like a really good place.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think you can enter into a transactional relationship around physical intimacy with very good intentions.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's the first one.

[SPEAKER_02]: The second one, it's similar but different, is just people who I feel more connected when there's physical connection, versus I feel more connected when there's emotional connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it becomes this like, well, who gets what first?

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, out of oftentimes like a super positive place, like I wanna figure out what makes you feel connected and loving and love Tara, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you assume, you wanna know the same out of me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so wouldn't it just make sense that if you tell me what, [SPEAKER_02]: you're needing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if I start trying to do that, then I should expect that it's going to pay off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to give you some tools because, again, it's subtle, it's subtle, but we also know it creates blocks, tension, fear, and then we don't talk about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then it builds up and then we're disappointed and then we move into, like you said, that boss, employee, dynamic, [SPEAKER_00]: not sexy, no good for anybody, you know, so we're going to give you the questions to ask and then we're going to give you some tools to move towards authentic intimacy, like it's pretty awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the shift that we want to talk about is that like moving out of a transactional approach to intimacy on both sides, really, you know, the transaction of getting your emotional in this matter as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: But moving towards an authentic intimacy where sex is connection, sex is not currency.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sex is an expression of an emotional connection, it's playful, it's based upon shared desire.

[SPEAKER_00]: And can I just say for my own experience like before we had all the tools, especially after the twins were born and there was just like a whole lot of transition and I didn't even know who I was anymore and then you had that pressure like I remember we went on a date night like after the twins were born like a few months later and I was like oh my gosh, he's going to want to have sex tonight like oh my gosh and [SPEAKER_00]: and you probably weren't expecting that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But we never talked about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, it built and built like when we moved into the place where you weren't expecting it, where it wasn't this reward, where it wasn't a source of like tension.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I felt so much more calm and the ability to be me and not experience it as a source of change.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now I get to initiate more because I'm not like, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I haven't initiated more.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's something to be said about like really looking at how it's creating anxiety for you individually.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then how that shows up as a couple.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the first one I want to like push back a little bit and clarify something, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't know whether I ever expected it and I think there's a lot of people on that high desire side or on that physical, you know, really craving physical intimacy side where to say like expect is it doesn't feel true to me because it wasn't like I went out on dates or [SPEAKER_02]: I would open up about my emotions for a week or whatever, and then I was like expecting it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I was hoping for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was let down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's it's important for that other person because I think even getting out of that, [SPEAKER_02]: if you're going to break a dynamic, you have to break it from both sides, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So so if terror wants it to get out of the transactional range, I certainly have to work on anything that looks like expectation and I even have to begin to realize that [SPEAKER_02]: being hopeful and then maybe let down looks like it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm going to have to manage my let down and my disappointment or my frustrations.

[SPEAKER_02]: But Tara, I think, has some work on this as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: to maybe let go of this idea that it is expected, because when you talk about that date and we've talked about that and thrown it out there in podcasts before where you were like, oh, he's expecting this.

[SPEAKER_02]: My recollection of that date quite honestly was sitting in that, it was like, kind of outside patio at a bar downtown.

[SPEAKER_02]: and just looking at you and just feeling like the sense of relief that it was just the two of us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't really remember being on that date expecting it, but it's so tied into your story that I was expecting it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so some of that is like that you put that on.

[SPEAKER_00]: I totally did, but I, but hang on, I also sensed your disappointment when it wouldn't happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, and that's, that's, [SPEAKER_02]: Totally fair.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then that's why my I was reading in totals like oh my gosh, we didn't he's disappointed What do I do now that and that's when I started to like get even more into my story and and so then remember I said like It's creating a lot of anxiety for me and so here is what I feel like started our process I'm like we have to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't talk about it [SPEAKER_00]: We only have these assumptions and these expectations and disappointments.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't talk about and like if you're such a say giving me a massage or something, I'll say like, hey my story is that like you want this to end up in sex and I just [SPEAKER_00]: I know that that creates a lot of anxiety for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I just, I need you to tell me that that's definitely not your expectation that you're just doing some non-sexual affection right now to make me feel like comforted and loved.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we had to get really specific because my story was you wanted it and if you didn't get it you would be disappointed and then I would feel shame and then I would feel guilt and then that just created a whole dynamic right and even want to deal with it at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well I think what we...

[SPEAKER_02]: What we had to work on and we and we still continue to to play with this and figure it out is Managing the tension around it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and seeing that as like tension is created by two points that are in relationship [SPEAKER_02]: to one another, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And in order to manage the tension around physical intimacy, we both had to sort of take ownership for finding ways to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because like a big thing you used to always say to me was like, well, I didn't even know that you've been thinking about this for the past couple weeks.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like how am I supposed to know?

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, how are we going to get through this if you don't bring it up?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't want to always be the one who brings it up, E.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then it was like, okay, all right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's important that I let her in, even if it's saying, like, hey, I'm feeling tense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling a lot of like those feelings towards you and the thing's happening and that's hard for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, okay, that's what she needs that for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that was like sort of our first step on this portion of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: The second step was figuring out the win and how?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because there were many times where I tried it and I the win or the how, [SPEAKER_02]: didn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had to work around that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, some, I say stuff sometimes I'm like, oh, God, that's like so, like duh, like why didn't I realize I like, but bringing it up when we're going to bed was never a good thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would, it would almost always end up in an argument.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it wouldn't be like, I would be bringing it up in order to try to have sex.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be I would be bringing it up because I was thinking about it at that point because the days finally [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd be like, how, you know, we haven't talked about this in a long time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is it okay to bring it up and you'd be like, what, what are you doing?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to bed like, no, this is going to ruin my night sleep and I'd be like, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's not.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I would kind of screw up and do that a few times.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, okay, like, then went and I bring it up.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then one time I like, brought it up in like home goods.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I got all bent out of shape because we used to have this thing called the frisky scale.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where we were like, okay, maybe that's a safe way to check in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, where are you on the frisky scale?

[SPEAKER_02]: And we were at home goods and I said, where are you on the frisky scale?

[SPEAKER_02]: And she said, like a negative five.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, ugh.

[SPEAKER_02]: But so yeah, you have to find ways to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then you have to find, how do we talk about it?

[SPEAKER_02]: And when do we talk about it?

[SPEAKER_00]: and like I'm just gonna share a win for us this morning like you woke up this morning you're like oh wait all these like sex streams about you last night and they were so real and in a very person sorry and have we not have done this work I would have been like oh my gosh does that mean he's expecting sex tonight like yeah these sex you're like I would have gone into the shaman guilt and I literally had zero anxiety but I'm like oh that's so cool like it's five [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was funny because I kept having these very realistic dreams that was happening and then I would wake up and be like, oh, it's not happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's not.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I went grew up.

[SPEAKER_02]: She'll kill.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm saying like a my response to you sharing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so much more free and playful now, like it's not like I'm internalizing it as shame and guilt now.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a source of tension at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is because we've done so much work around it sharing our needs talking about it more and so that's kind of what we're going to get into right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I feel like we've done a good job of sort of naming it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That sex can easily become something that feels like I did this, so now I get that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We wanted to be this shared emotional experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's that sex is a physical expression.

[SPEAKER_02]: of emotional connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even like I see in our relationship now, where because we have that close emotional connection, I'm much less anxious about the physical connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't even realize before that part of my frustration, anxiety around us, not feeling physically connected, [SPEAKER_02]: I was just like dissonant to that, like I just wasn't seeing it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So now we want to look at like, okay, it's like for you couples out there where you're like, yeah, feel this, like that's where we're at too.

[SPEAKER_02]: We struggle with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you begin to move towards sex being a physical expression of emotional connection?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling deeply connected, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Not every word system, not a punishment system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you guys hear us, say this all the time, but it's the building of desire through emotional safety.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, emotional safety means we can be transparent with each other, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, like with this couple I was working with yesterday, like right, he had been having and waiting, like I've been vulnerable, like it's been three weeks, like every single day for three weeks.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was like building up on his story of like it's gonna happen today.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now once, now once had they talked about it and then for her, she had gotten her cycle and internally she's like, oh, thank God, I'm relieved, I don't have to worry about this for like seven days and she kept that to herself so he didn't know when I said, listen, you guys have been [SPEAKER_00]: Doing amazing at building emotional safety so you have to be transparent with each other like when you feel Relief that you got your period Your partner has to know that and he has to be able to hear it in a way where he doesn't he's not reacting to it But like thank you for letting me know that what is still the anxiety that's creating for him for three weeks He's building this pressure and expectation, but not talking to her about it So she can sense that unconsciously [SPEAKER_00]: And then she covers back, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: She's cautionary because it's still there, even if you're not explicitly saying it, the tension is there or the pressure is there.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we were able to have this awesome conversation around how it's been for both of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: They both could hear each other, validate each other's experience, because it's still a difficult conversation, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: but they got through it.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're talking about it and they recognize we still don't have our system set up because intimacy for them is one of the biggest issues in their relationship and it's taken us a while to build the emotional safety team and get there.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like of course it's going to like they're going to stumble and it's going to be clunky but they're so dedicated to deepening their intimacy that they're willing to do this work.

[SPEAKER_00]: So transparency now that they have [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to share that with each other and they're going to talk about it without any expectation of anything except for just not letting it build like a little pressure cooker creates pressure.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not talking about it, that's what happens in relationships around intimacy and sex.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just to normalize it, for all couples intimacy is like sort of the baseline issue.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and because I've even I've had couples who came in the couples counseling and their sex life is actually still pretty good, but there's this other component of intimacy that's messed up is just like it is really difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: to create a consistent, intimate relationship across the spectrum from gentle kind words, non-sexual touch, all the way to sex, like it is difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the baseline is what Tara was saying, is this emotional safety quotient?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is, I can be me completely.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can be me on a good day, I can be me on a bad day, I can be me lonely, I can be me disconnected, I can be me loving you, I can be me annoyed by you, like that we can speak about anything, and that I'm attuned, I can tell when you're upset, [SPEAKER_02]: And I can engage with you that you can get my attention if you need it, that you accept me in whatever place I'm out like that has been a game changer in our relationship like that that we know now when we're going through a difficult time that we're there for one another.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you said that, and thank you for being there and for being a tune, but it's that, like, using verbal appreciation instead of, like, a sex reward, like, right, even with this couple yesterday, he's like, I've just been so vulnerable, and I share my emotions, and I check in what they're doing that day, that, that, that, that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, yeah, like, are you seeing that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, are you appreciating that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, because he should have been doing that the whole time.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, these are skills that we learned.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be able to appreciate, like, I really appreciate you being vulnerable right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know that can be really hard for you because that's what's going to build.

[SPEAKER_00]: The emotional and physical intimacy is through [SPEAKER_00]: Right here in doing this, then I will give him sex.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think that that was, that was always a sticking point with us as well because in the moments maybe where I would get to a level of frustration and bring up physical intimacy, you would say, well, this isn't happened, this isn't happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I also didn't feel like [SPEAKER_02]: I was getting much verbal appreciation for other things I was doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So then it would always force me into this place, wouldn't force me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then I would go to a place of defensiveness because I would feel like I would have to like name awful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the things I'm doing that I think are what you've asked for me and then you'd be like, you're being defensive and I was like, well, but like, okay, like if we're not going to be physically connected, [SPEAKER_02]: then I need some validation, okay, so if it's not going to be transactional, right, if the one person who desires those physical things, if he's going to let go or she's going to let go of, you know, it being a reward system.

[SPEAKER_02]: then they have to have acknowledgement, they have to have some other acknowledgement.

[SPEAKER_02]: They have to have somebody see them and say, hey, I noticed like, I know it's not easy for you to open up about your emotions, but you did, and I really like love that, and it made me feel connected to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because then there's like, oh, okay, like, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not just getting told like I'm screwing this up or I'm not just walking around sort of empty in this area that I want to be full.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's can I just share this too because that this just came up when you were talking, but like so many people think like my partner is touching me that automatically means they want more.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, I know that you've gotten so much better at non-sexual affection.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're not right in you would say this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't, I wasn't really an affectionate person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know you're way more like touchy, feeling, holding hands and snuggling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I said the importance of like, gosh, non-sexual affection is everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you just touch me every time and there's this, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's there's a goal end of having sex like that doesn't feel good for me And so like I continue and I want to continue to get better like when you're just hugging me and kissing me Just because you want to do that non-sexual affection like that is verbal appreciation like You get me or attuned to me and you're touching me not just Basin because we definitely have different physiological bodies [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like your body is way more higher desire sexually than mine at this stage in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, like when you touch me, and it's non-sexual, it feels really safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've got to say thank you more for when you do do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that means it also makes it like, [SPEAKER_00]: Balance, it feels more balanced when we are physically intimate, but some people like they only touch me when they want to have sex and I mean that means that means that's a go.

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you guys share what your needs are around that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that for some people might not feel okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that comes to a whole other thing in building this emotional safety, is there has to be a place for both people to talk about what their unmet needs are and have the other person be able to hear and validate.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, we totally struggled with both ways that when Tara would tell me the ways that her emotional needs were getting met I would get defensive and go on the offense and in my perception you did very much the same thing that like when I would voice my needs it would be like well you don't do this you don't do that and so what it needs to be [SPEAKER_02]: is it needs to be a little more like, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I hear it, please tell me more.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where the whole differentiation, which you haven't listened to, that podcast, it's amazing with BN Rogers.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably about six or seven episodes ago and more, is that I can hear, terracate, difficult things.

[SPEAKER_02]: ways I'm not meeting her needs, and it's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay still.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still a good person.

[SPEAKER_02]: I still love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I do struggle to meet those needs.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please tell me more and tell me why that's important to you and tell me what you like.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'll do my best to really take that in and I'll be responsive.

[SPEAKER_02]: without they're being a price tag on it that I'm going to meet those needs so that you meet my needs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And but here's what's important.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to continually talk about it or it builds up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're still getting better at that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's times in the morning where like we hug each other and I'm like, oh, well, we haven't hugged for three days.

[SPEAKER_00]: You totally forgot about it morning hugs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I start to think of it at like, and I'm like, oh, no, that's not healthy, but we haven't talked about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't done our check in like, hey, because I know for you you need more verbal appreciation for like everything that you do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then for me, I need more of the non-sexual affection.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to check in like when we're sharing what we need.

[SPEAKER_00]: And our partners like absolutely like you are honest, you're like I'm not a very affectionate person, but I hear that that's important to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to try hard like we just check in like because we both want to meet each other's knees, but we have to remind each other sometimes about those needs are we're just going to forget in our busy lives and you know, like I have to keep it like on the forefront of my mind like AJ loves verbal praise right he loves physical touch.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love nonsexual touch.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love when you appreciate me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love when we do the morning hugs together, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So being able to have that emotional safety so you can have these check-ins and talk about, oh my gosh, so many things.

[SPEAKER_00]: What does it like to be the low desire and the high desire partner?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like people don't talk about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They just assume low desire partner has got it easy as totally in control and higher desire partner is going without.

[SPEAKER_00]: Both are grieving in their own [SPEAKER_00]: separate ways and not talking about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have a whole podcast on high frisky low frisky, low desire, high desire, and just ways to talk about it and get in and recognize that it's hard for both and that it fluctuates throughout the relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're talking about it and being transparent about it, it's not going to hijack you in the other way where sex becomes a source of tension and pressure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's why we did this podcast today.

[SPEAKER_02]: So here, we'll give you a couple of points of action with your partner, like two sort of conversation starters around this.

[SPEAKER_02]: The first is both of you guys sitting down and each partner names ways they want to feel valued outside of sex, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: puts a little bit of pressure upon how do I find other ways to make my partner feel appreciated?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so both of you guys are like, hey, you know, what makes me feel valued?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because that's what we really, that's one of our base desires in our relationship with our primary person, you know, with our husband, our wife, our partner is we want to feel valued.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I'm gonna just, I'm gonna use this.

[SPEAKER_00]: What makes you feel valued outside of sex?

[SPEAKER_02]: Your attention.

[SPEAKER_00]: What does that look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: Giving me like your full attention, like stopping, sitting, putting everything away, sorry kids, like, no, can you go to the room?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking to your dad, like when I have your full attention.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: When you do things like I've told you this before, when you slow down, put your hands on my face, give me a kiss, like when it's like when everything else is less important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything else moves to the background, because I think that's what's.

[SPEAKER_02]: people who do crave that physical connection, that sexual connection is, that's what happens then is like everything else goes away.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't concentrate on much other than then your partner when you're connecting in that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a way that's non-sexual just like when I have your attention.

[SPEAKER_00]: love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel valued.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kind of, I'll flip it around.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just so everyone knows I'm so in intent of, oh my heavens, it's something so hard that I have to work on because I go all over the place, especially now with all my pyramid of hard stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think that's like why I have to focus.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, focus.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sexual affection is difficult for you because [SPEAKER_02]: It's like everything else has to go away for a little while.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I have to, but for me, I have to be like, it's like an intention of my like every day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to find ways to let E.J.

[SPEAKER_00]: know I am attentive to him in this, whether it's five minutes or five hours.

[SPEAKER_00]: Usually it'll be somewhere in between five and ten minutes.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's about my face.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe two to three.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, what makes you feel vibe?

[SPEAKER_00]: What makes me feel valued is yeah kind of like creating experiences that are different than what we do for like our normal week like hey let's go on a hike or I don't know maybe being like more of the [SPEAKER_00]: cleaner like, yeah, taking steps toward creating a different activity outside of like the routine piece because I I get so wrapped up into routine and like rigidity that I [SPEAKER_00]: follow-up, but then I get bored easily, and then I kind of like can blame you for getting bored.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like what makes me feel valued is that knowing that you're trying to create other experiences outside of just our normal routine and hugs and like playful energy.

[SPEAKER_00]: That makes me feel really valued.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know that that's important to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just get stuck in my systems, call it my little OCD.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so there you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: We just modeled that so you're gonna name ways that you want to feel valued outside of sex [SPEAKER_02]: And another question that the two of you guys can ask each other and have a really genuine open-hearted conversation is we have to talk about sex, you know, and what do we want sex to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so asking your partner, how do you want sex to feel?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what are the qualities that you want in our sexual relationship?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, are you asking me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Tara, I mean, from me, I just want it to feel calm.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want it to feel like free calm, organic, as much as it can be.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are things about creating that quality time together.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you can at least have time for the two of you without the obligation of sex for sure, but like, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want it to feel free organic as much as it can and calm and just natural.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like for me it's just natural and we're both of us are initiating and it feels really balanced and equal.

[SPEAKER_00]: How about for you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, I was just thinking like that, that's for whatever reason like that's a hard one right now Like it's hard as a scribe like I think I'd like it to be Special like I think that's where I'm at this and this is like different like I think a lot of couples I think us we could it's gotten to this place where it's like this thing we kind of fit in We have a moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get a quickie [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and that there's something like, like it has its own space, you know, like a date.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, like a date, like, and you miss that too, like getting dressed up, going out, you know, looking good, smelling good for one another, like having that thing where it's not like rushed, like that it has its time, it has its place, and it's special, like that seems, yeah, really neat, because I think, like, that goes hand in hand with my values outside of sex.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well early in relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that spontaneity is kind of the neat thing about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're just crazy about each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that was just that was super fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't, I don't crave that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think I just crave it just being like special.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's having its own space.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that sounds like, that sounds like really nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I mean, you know, again, you guys can always reach out if you have questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, how do I even bring this up or how do we know if we have emotional safety?

[SPEAKER_00]: We have the whole emotional safety assessment on our website now that you can go and take that little five minute assessment piece to know because we're here to support you.

[SPEAKER_00]: So some closing reflections, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Sex, it's not a [SPEAKER_00]: prize or reward system because that can just get clunky.

[SPEAKER_00]: It can start to feel like pressure, expectations to disappointment, not good when it comes to sex.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a practice of connection.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You're using your emotional safety that you're developing, connecting in a physical [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, we just encourage you to reflect on how you can shift from transactual intimacy if that is happening to mutual chosen intimacy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just as always knowing that this is like probably one of the most natural dynamics to fall into.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that [SPEAKER_02]: it's workable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that you're not uniquely broken or screwed up around this, that it's just I think it's just an incredibly easy dynamic to fall into that unfortunately, sort of keeps you both from getting what you need, that we don't want anything to be transactional, like we don't want to balance sheet in the relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got into something where I was like, [SPEAKER_02]: totally being balanced, shitty, about something, a couple weeks ago, and it was just me keeping track of, like, well, if you asked this, and I don't get that, and it wasn't even about sex, but it was just, like, in general, like, let's get out of this, like, transactional thing, and let's get into just mutual connection, openness, support, love, like, doesn't that sound, that sounds really nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so gosh, we would love to hear from you after listening to this podcast again.

[SPEAKER_01]: We learn from you just as we hope you learn from us as always take care of yourself, take care of each other.