[SPEAKER_05]: Today on the relationship renovation podcast, we talk about this concept of differentiation.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can be me, you can be you, your feelings are okay, my feelings are okay.

[SPEAKER_05]: It seems simple, but as you hear, it's not the easiest thing to do.

[SPEAKER_05]: So check it out.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hello all and welcome to the relationship innovation podcast.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Tara Kerwin and my name is EJ Kerwin and today we are excited.

[SPEAKER_05]: We have a guest on it.

[SPEAKER_05]: You may have heard a couple weeks ago.

[SPEAKER_05]: She was in here with her partner Aaron.

[SPEAKER_05]: But we're here today with Leanne Rogers, and she is a therapist at our center.

[SPEAKER_05]: She's a LAC.

[SPEAKER_05]: She is also a former wedding planner, which is a cool background to bring into the couple's counseling world.

[SPEAKER_05]: She's doing a lot of great work right now with her clients or on IFS.

[SPEAKER_05]: She's been doing a lot of training.

[SPEAKER_05]: in internal family systems.

[SPEAKER_05]: But today, we're going to talk to Leon about differentiation.

[SPEAKER_05]: And we'll define that in a little bit, but welcome, Leon.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: So happy to have you here again.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm excited.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, give us a little bit of your story, like, as a therapist.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that transition, that's really interesting from being a wedding planner to somebody who got into being a couple's family therapist.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would say from, like, I remember middle school high school, the only thing that I really knew how to talk about and connect with people on was relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I did not just small talk, I didn't know how to do these other things, but I could always talk about relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, I got into wedding planning.

[SPEAKER_05]: How did that happen?

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, how did you get her?

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, my sister got married.

[SPEAKER_02]: She had a destination wedding in Mexico.

[SPEAKER_02]: And her wedding planner was from Dallas.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, that's a job.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a thing that I could do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's kind of where the seed got planted.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had moved to Mexico after college.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just I was going to go for one year.

[SPEAKER_02]: I ended up staying for six.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just had it.

[SPEAKER_02]: My brain is like, wedding plan is going to be my end job.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do that when I retire, you know, because it's so easy and not stressful or fast pace at all.

[SPEAKER_05]: Which is interesting, because you think of weddings as kind of stressful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, yeah, I was sorry.

[SPEAKER_04]: She was being sad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, it's just like it's a very like, you know, you need to have a lot of energy to do that job.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, lots of things happened, but one day I just said, okay, this is the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm I'm going to do what I'm planning now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I started telling everyone in Mexico, I was a wedding planner.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at some point, like, I got connected with a florist who needed a wedding planner for a wedding.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that, wow, the owner of that hotel started sending me all his clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I, I was a wedding planner.

[SPEAKER_05]: What made you good?

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, why were you a good wedding planner?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that, so I haven't engineering background.

[SPEAKER_02]: My brain thinks in order and is logical and is very organized.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think on that side, I always had everything, you know, I could see all the pieces and how they fit together really easily.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I mean, I was a U.S.

[SPEAKER_02]: citizen American living in Mexico and all of my client base was from the U.S.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I provided a sense of comfort and good communication.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like they just felt trust in me, but then also like nothing's that big of a deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, a problem comes, it just was like, yeah, my clients felt like I had it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, they just trust, like, she's got it.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's got us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now look at you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, couples.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was like, I think, you know, they always like, you're so calm.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, maybe I just presented well.

[SPEAKER_05]: Do you really bring that into your couples work too?

[SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that couples feel like you got it?

[SPEAKER_05]: They can trust that you can handle their, you know, their stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_02]: When couples would tell me that, my clients would tell me that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it was that I did.

[SPEAKER_02]: That did that for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a sense of doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that energy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Translates.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think I'm boundary.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm confident.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel even if I don't know what I'm doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, I've made big mistakes as wedding planner.

[SPEAKER_02]: I made big mistakes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I made big mistakes as a therapist, but probably.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's okay because it's like, we're just human.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't stress about that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you come from a, like, more hopeful and trusting than imperfect and beating yourself up if you make a mistake.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: So then before we get into this term that I'm so excited to talk about how did you transition from wedding planner to couples therapist?

[SPEAKER_04]: And can I just say we're so grateful that you're on our team?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, like I said, you know, when I was in school, like I've just only known how to talk about relationships and when I got into mine, you know, my major one, I've had less before that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But we started doing the work from the beginning, you know, like we talked about in our last podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so how did I move into being a therapist?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I had that idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was like a natural transition from a wedding planner to to couples therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I actually tried to create like a premarital counseling thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like I really love understanding how relationships work and why and like what's happening inside.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I remember being [SPEAKER_02]: at the end of one another, a third long term relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I looked and thought, I like, there's this moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, you know, I feel the exact same.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel lost.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel lonely.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I'm sitting right next to this person.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel so far away.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that happened in every single relationship I ever had.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, all right y'all, what's the common denominator here?

[SPEAKER_02]: All three of those guys were totally different people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Very different, like values and some were good guys, some were not so good guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: I felt the same at the end of all of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, all right y'all, it's me.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is it in me that I need to look at?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is it in me that I need to change because I'm creating this somehow?

[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like this is such a good segue into the term [SPEAKER_04]: I know I remember I was talking to like a couple months ago.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, Lee and I would really love to have you on our podcast to talk about something that you love.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, I want to talk about differentiation.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, you go.

[SPEAKER_04]: So why is it compelling for you and what is it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when I first started dating, I was starting to think about maybe transitioning to a couple of separate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I read this book, passionate marriage by Dr.

Shnark, David Shnark.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's a good book, but a dense book.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he ties that differentiation in there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is what I need and this is what I'm doing because I lost myself in every relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, every relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: How often do you hear that statement, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: I've lost myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we give up ourselves so quickly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because we're so afraid of losing the other person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we just adjust ourselves to fit what either we think.

[SPEAKER_02]: They want us to be or what they say they want us to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_05]: Or what we think we should be?

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think there's definitely some relation to like the other person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's like we just give up ourselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I read that book.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had also done a lot of mindfulness practice when Aaron and I met.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was really getting to know who I was.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I learned about differentiation in that moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you asked, what is it and why do I want to talk about it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just been like near and dear to my heart, you know, throughout my relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I keep finding myself really drawn to these theories or modalities that [SPEAKER_02]: integrate a differentiation to how they teach it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I did the developmental model training with Ellen Bader, and that's all on different differentiation and growth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And IFS is also a differentiation model.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's name it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Let's talk about what is it?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, what is differentiation?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so, you know, that maybe the simplest way to talk about differentiation is it is a sense of [SPEAKER_02]: Holding on to yourself while staying in connection with your partner.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I can allow you to have your emotional experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can have you to have your values, your opinions.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even if those opinions are about me, I can hold space for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: without, I mean, it's going to affect us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we're going to have some emotional response to it, but I can stay in connection with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can honor that that's your truth.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's real for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to provide a safe space for you to be able to share that in order to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have to stay steadfast in myself.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's an interesting, it's like, it's this healthy boundary.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's that you can be who you are.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can be who I am.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can be present for who you are.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I can handle it.

[SPEAKER_05]: There's like a space between that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: That there's something that I don't have to meld.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't have to lose myself.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't have to take everything personal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's, it's a, you can be who you are.

[SPEAKER_05]: And those two things have to continue to exist.

[SPEAKER_05]: You can't lose that, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: but but learning how to be that person, especially if you don't have like healthy role modeling of becoming yourself while growing up, right, because you're accommodating to your family, whatever.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's gotta be really hard.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think on that note, like, this, to some book in our little outline, we have hearing, and another point you put in here, Lee Ann, which speaks to that is being able to manage your own emotional reactions while listening to and digesting your partner's feelings, thoughts and experiences.

[SPEAKER_05]: In order for you to know that it's okay to be you or your partner knows it's okay to be you, you have to be able to sort of manage yourself [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Stay present for that other person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also to what Tara is saying is it's managing your own emotional contingent, but it does depend on like there's an idea or a theory out there that says an individual can differentiate as much as their family has differentiated without some internal work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I'm just going about life without being introspective and looking within and going, okay, well, who am I?

[SPEAKER_02]: Who do I want to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: How can I grow?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to differentiate as much as my family has.

[SPEAKER_05]: Can you give us like make that a little more concrete for our listeners like gives like a for instance or like okay so [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're parents, if you have parents who are pretty codependent on each other, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Then you have the kind of a codependent family unit, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You see mom and dad, maybe they're not in like a very happy loving relationship, but they can't go to the grocery store without one another, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're seeing, that's a low differentiation, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like they [SPEAKER_02]: need the other to exist.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then that's where you would go to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about time.

[SPEAKER_02]: We repeat our patterns.

[SPEAKER_02]: We we repeat what we learn about.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me say I'll never be like my mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you would expect then that like you're super tight with your partner, but you're only so emotionally really connected.

[SPEAKER_05]: to them.

[SPEAKER_05]: And you might even think like that's absolutely like sort of normal.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's the way things should be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: And naturally, try to replicate that with your partner to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think where this kind of came up where I was kind of bumping up against this need for growth.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, a lot of clients is noticing clients who, you know, got together really young age.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So clients that got together in their teens or early twenties, they just started the differentiation process.

[SPEAKER_02]: Differentiation is a developmental stage for all humans to go through.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if you partner with somebody at that early age, you kind of just transfer your identity [SPEAKER_02]: to the other person, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you kind of miss that differentiation.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you're still doing it, but yeah, there is a part that if you go at an early age, your identity just goes to the other person, you miss that stage.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's go just because I first find like, I love this term and I studied it in graduate school because I loved bone and that's when I knew like I wanted to do like couples work and family work, but [SPEAKER_04]: So low differentiation means you're not very differentiated from your family of origin, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then a high differentiation means you are your own true self, regardless of like your parents' values, your people's values and like that you are your own person and you're steadfast in that and you feel very grounded within that piece of it.

[SPEAKER_04]: and that you can still have these other connected relationships within your system, but you don't lose yourself with them.

[SPEAKER_04]: That would be highly differentiated, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that we have to pay attention to individuation and differentiation, because individuation is also part of the [SPEAKER_02]: process, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But differentiation is so much about being in connection that I can stay connected with you and I can take emotional risks with you because I feel safe enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we work with how do I differentiate?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, you know, how do I even do that?

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of it is going, well, I'm going to show up [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, can I tell you guys a, well, I think I don't know if I said this in the podcast, but I remember being with Erin in the very beginning and like having to psych myself up to go out there and I was in the bathtub and I was like, I'm gonna tell him, I'm gonna tell him this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I come out and I sit down and I say, I really enjoy being with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You guys, that was, that was like a big hurdle for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was a very vulnerable thing to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I said, I'm going to say this thing and I don't know what he's going to say back.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that was an emotional risk.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: And would you say, like, you know, it's a little bit of a blend of the individuation and the differentiation was that truth, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: Because that's that staying in connection with who you are was very different than what you grew up with.

[SPEAKER_05]: Did you see a lot of people taking those kind of emotional risks in relationship?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so that's what made it so risky.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, my, yeah, my emotional and and he could say any number of things, you know, and so he can be like, oh, cool, you know, or [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean it's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but but it's taking that risk is saying I'm going to reveal myself to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and just see what happens and that's taking that step.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so let me let's tell me if it's okay to go there.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's just say [SPEAKER_04]: Someone says, like, how do I know if I'm like differentiated to the best of my ability?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what does that even mean?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because idea is to be this healthy, grounded self, even during difficult times of your partner.

[SPEAKER_04]: emotionally when things are escalated, but that you're still right, you're staying like on the ground and holding experience for both because you feel good.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's not what we see in couples, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: We couples come in because they are just, they're a wreck, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So how do you, the process, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's an individual process for the sake of the couple.

[SPEAKER_04]: How are the first questions you start to ask to even get that sense of where they're at during difficult moments with each other and then how do you help them understand this idea and get more differentiated so that they feel like?

[SPEAKER_04]: I can be me even when things are uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, all of couples' work is helping people tolerate the tension, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: When we're different, when I have a different opinion than you, or yeah, when two people are different, that's their tension.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And differentiation says, I can sit in this tension with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can tolerate this tension and come with empathy and curiosity about your experience without needing to take responsibility for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, so it's like, this is, wow, that's your experience, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's saying, and I can bring you my stuff and not ask you to change, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not asking you, I'm not coming and saying, you did this thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It tripped my wire.

[SPEAKER_02]: You need to change that about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's coming and saying, my wire got tripped.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to know my experience about it.

[SPEAKER_04]: How do you move individuals on couples to get to that point?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Slowly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because when they come in, it's like, it has nothing to do with me.

[SPEAKER_04]: My partner needs to change.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because what does that give you a window into and then let, yeah, how do you help them become those holding spaces for each other?

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I'm thinking like if everyone was differentiated in that way, like our jobs wouldn't exist.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to be holding space for you.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean the thing that comes up for me is like [SPEAKER_05]: One of the things that drives people into couples counseling, one of the drives that drives them in when they're really struggling, is it's about needs, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: It's about like, I have the need for this, and it can be the need around parenting, or it can be a lot of times a need around intimacy, or the need to solve problems better, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: So then the beginning point that you're talking about is like, I have to be able to like, [SPEAKER_05]: hear what my partners feeling, what they're thinking without becoming reactive to it and that that's okay where they are.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't need to change right immediately.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't have to change their experience.

[SPEAKER_05]: I just at first have to be able to just be able to hear them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what else you have to know what you feel.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to know what you think.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to know what you value.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to know yourself before you can reveal yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that is a lot of the work is getting to know you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what do you want?

[SPEAKER_02]: What are your values?

[SPEAKER_02]: Where did it come from?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that yours?

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to hold on to that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Or do you want something different?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because we get given a lot of stuff, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we have to know what we want who we are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can share that with somebody.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you know it, and it's different than your partner, then it can feel like an emotional risk to share that with them.

[SPEAKER_05]: We just want to tell you all about something that we offer, which is the relationship renovation at home program.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's basically the way in which we've worked with couples for years in our counseling center, but a way that you and your partner can do it at home.

[SPEAKER_04]: It gives couples structure to build that emotional safety and the skills that we didn't learn, but that are so essential to learn in building a healthy relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's lessons, there are videos, it's a real structured way for you and your partner to reconnect.

[SPEAKER_05]: So just go to our website, there's a tab on top, online programs, and you can download a free sample.

[SPEAKER_05]: We know it's made a significant difference in hundreds of couples, relationships, so please go check that out.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I like about the way we've decided to work with couples is in our model.

[SPEAKER_05]: We start with, you can't help but start at the beginning with setting goals, which is often times where the problems would brought you in.

[SPEAKER_05]: But then it's almost like we asked them to pause for a second.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then we go back and learn about them.

[SPEAKER_05]: they learn about themselves, they learn about each other.

[SPEAKER_05]: We gather all this information about just how they got to this place together and into their relationship, time on everything, and then we sort of circle back then again, [SPEAKER_05]: to communicating about that thing, they need to communicate to each other, but we have a lot better of understanding and getting to that individuation, which leads to the differentiation of, well, okay, is that because that's what you truly want?

[SPEAKER_05]: you truly need or is it because it's just what you sort of have instinctually, how you've instinctually adapted to survive?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's something I definitely want to share about the process and when does this become a thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because [SPEAKER_02]: Like in the developmental model, they've created these certain terms.

[SPEAKER_02]: So those are the ones I'm going to use.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when a relationship first begins, there's this like merging stage of like, you don't really see the red flags.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're just so in love.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've got the chemicals going.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's like symbiosis space.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we think is love.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's what we think a relationship should look and feel like.

[SPEAKER_02]: But we can let go of some of our stuff, who we are, that space for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And after about two years of being together, the relationship then moves into differentiation, the partner start to try to reclaim themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, they returning to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when that happens, there is the struggle in the relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you hear people say, we just want to get back to the way used to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, well, that was a chemical dump that we're not going to get back, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But, but you can find a deeper love, a deeper connection by being vulnerable and revealing yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: to your partner, like the other parts of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's why we talk about like, oh, the thing that was endearing to you, then becomes the most annoying thing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But that differentiation starts later in the relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's when, yeah, a lot of problems.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: The fighting start because you should and all of it because we don't know what it is.

[SPEAKER_04]: You don't know that it's natural.

[SPEAKER_04]: We just know the process feels tense and it sucks and it shouldn't be like that.

[SPEAKER_05]: But it's also like the gateway to the most rich connection relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: You could ever get to it sustainable because then I'm, I can handle whatever the hell is going on for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can hear it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Dr.

Snark says marriages or relationships are people growing machines.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they just love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's like, yeah, your partner is going to show you where you need to grow.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our partners are greatest teacher.

[SPEAKER_02]: Be patient for the lessons.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is differentiation, but everything that we do is like trying to help people [SPEAKER_02]: hold space for themselves and their partner.

[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so why is it so difficult and what are like the obstacles to it?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, yeah, which couples drug on like kind of looking at this next question, which couples struggle the most and why?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the couples that got together early in life, I think struggle with this idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, anxious attachment.

[SPEAKER_02]: A Voidant attachment can look like differentiation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is tricky.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was good at this list too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Same.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was good at a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I would share with two master manipulators.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I, yeah, I thought I was differentiated when really I was just being a Voidant.

[SPEAKER_05]: distant.

[SPEAKER_02]: I used mindfulness to bypass the uncomfortable carbon copy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if I say to have your own podcast just on that, okay, let's go as we will have that for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's like, and it wasn't until, you know, this moment of realizing, I need Aaron.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I realized I wasn't being as vulnerable with him as I could.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just started working on vulnerability like yesterday.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I feel like, too, you knew that you didn't want to end in the same feeling you had had with the previous relationships.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you were compelled this time to do something different for you, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because you kept seeing the same thing happen over and over with very different people, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the opening for me was [SPEAKER_05]: that I wanted to be happy no matter what, no matter whether it was me or not, then it allowed me then to be present for her.

[SPEAKER_05]: Things that made me uncomfortable much better than I had ever been.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm much better at differentiating, even if you are upset, even if you are mad, even if you are hurting, [SPEAKER_05]: Even if you are disappointed, I can handle that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Instead of being like, stop that.

[SPEAKER_05]: That is really fricking uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_05]: Makes me feel shitty about myself.

[SPEAKER_05]: Even your eyes look at that are like, stop it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's being comfortable and comfortable.

[SPEAKER_05]: Which, which then leads into just like a very basic thing that is makes it incredibly difficult to [SPEAKER_05]: be present for each other in this differentiation, is just activation.

[SPEAKER_05]: Is once you're activated and being aware of your own activation, I'm out of my window of tolerance.

[SPEAKER_05]: That by definition is like, I don't feel safe for you being who you are.

[SPEAKER_05]: So then why would my partner feel comfortable being who they are?

[SPEAKER_04]: I just had to share something really quick.

[SPEAKER_04]: This was just like a big win for me last week.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it reminds me that I continue to become more differentiated as I am doing IFS work right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: So there's this one person in my life that I normally have so much anxiety talking to, like literally my heart would race.

[SPEAKER_04]: I would clam up, I would freeze and I would avoid it like that plague.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I had to have a conversation with this man over the phone last week.

[SPEAKER_04]: Totally calm owned my own stuff.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, that's him.

[SPEAKER_04]: This is me.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't even think about it as a win until I went into my, you know, therapy session.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, it's actually working.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it is not my responsibility to be whatever he needs me to be.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's so huge, you guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's huge.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's exactly what E.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: is saying is like, [SPEAKER_02]: I just want Tara to be happy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, you could hold her truth in your truth at the same time, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like she deserves happiness.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's real for her and you're saying, and I'll have my own experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: No matter what that looks like, and not going [SPEAKER_02]: How do I fix your upsetness?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do I, how do I mold myself into the person you need me to be?

[SPEAKER_04]: I know, and so many people are well intentionally, and that's the thing, like, oh, I just want to make her happy or I don't want to see her suffer.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like just know that well intention is like that is you guys missing the mark on each other that leads to the more disconnection and not being seen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have this moment with Erin that comes up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember a lot because [SPEAKER_02]: You know how like teenagers, teenagers need boundaries.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Teenagers need boundaries because they need something to bump up against to know where they end or where their parents and they begin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where do you and where are I begin?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so as parents, we have to hold that boundary for them so that they can differentiate.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when we stay in loving connection with them, totally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ideally, it's very hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the same thing in a partnership, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: If there is low differentiation and your partner that says, I'm just trying to do what you want me to do all the time, then I'm like, well, where do you end and I begin?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm like, where are you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I told Erin, well, one point I said, I need you to fight me in a sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, don't let me get away.

[SPEAKER_02]: with being mean, you know, and he's like, okay, I was like, it's not going to be pretty.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to take it well, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I need practice at bumping up against you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a low-shame tolerance.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I would feel shame and then, you know, defend it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like, but I created a safe play.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm giving you permission, right, to stand up for yourself, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's still hard to do that, but I think that if we can just know that the tension is where the growth is, yeah, then we can get to a place of connection and loving understanding.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think like the you know because we always want to give people like okay where's the action like where's what is the thing you can do and one thing you you laid out was and what you're talking about right there is you're saying like we can we want to take emotional risks without partner yeah right but a big thing that terrorist talked off and times about and I think that we do is [SPEAKER_05]: therapists' coaches, whatever, is that we have to create a safe space, a container for taking emotional risks by saying, fight back, you know, you're saying, like, I need you to fight back.

[SPEAKER_05]: Terror was like, you know, we need to create a safe place where you stay present, where you share your feelings even if they might lead the conflict.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that's what the therapeutic space, that's what it creates is like, okay, here you go, every week we're coming together and you can take emotional risks and maybe somebody needs to be taught.

[SPEAKER_05]: How do I take emotional risks?

[SPEAKER_05]: How do I stay present?

[SPEAKER_05]: I always speak from my heart.

[SPEAKER_05]: What are my needs?

[SPEAKER_05]: What is reflective speech and like listening, not correcting, you know, is that we have to create a space that's safe.

[SPEAKER_05]: And we had to step outside of our comfort zone, which is interesting like that is like the recipe for growth as well.

[SPEAKER_05]: Is it we're in a safe place and we step just past where our limit is.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's where we grow and that's where we want couples to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: But kind of just say how cool is it like in your intimate relationship you get to grow into like the strongest.

[SPEAKER_04]: Most powerful version of you that you never got to in any other relationship before.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: If you're willing to go through it, I know it's not easy work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like difficult to be uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're like, no, we're good.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're always trying to find that those first feeling those first year like, yeah, stay away from discomfort.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's not where deep intimate relationships.

[SPEAKER_04]: are it's because we're comfortable with the uncomfortable and I really want to see you grow and I want to see you grow with me.

[SPEAKER_04]: So what's in my best interest too is to stay true to who I am and also let you know like you have permission to take emotional risk with me and I have a permission to take emotional risk with you.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that you can handle it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have a question too.

[SPEAKER_04]: What if one person in their relationship like really wants to do this work and really, you know, and the other person just, it's too scary.

[SPEAKER_04]: They can't like, what do you notice?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd say, you know, what we know about systems is if you change one part of the system, the system's going to change.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: For better words, you know, like it's going to something's going to change.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you know yourself, mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you get really clear on your values and your boundaries, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you learn what it looks like to hold a boundary, because a boundary says, this is what I'm gonna do if this happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, if your partner likes to blame you for hurting their feelings, which we can acknowledge that, yeah, we sometimes misstep, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay if I fold the towels this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay if I parent this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay if, you know, I do certain things and you stand in that, you say, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I hear you, you can be upset.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to take that on.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's the key component that when you, your partner's not signed up for the work, but you decide, I'm going to do this work anyway, is that you can become more tolerant of your partners [SPEAKER_05]: lack of differentiation and then if all of a sudden you're not reacting as much, but you might also be having some different boundaries and you're holding them in really healthy ways.

[SPEAKER_05]: This other person is gonna be forced into changing one way or another.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's where it gets unpredictable though.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because they might see something in you or they're like, man, I wanna piece of that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I'm gonna jump into this whole game as well.

[SPEAKER_05]: Or it might be that they're stunted.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then for you, it's like, okay, how am I gonna hold this boundary?

[SPEAKER_05]: Am I gonna be able to stick around if my partner just isn't willing to change?

[SPEAKER_02]: You said, my partner isn't willing to change.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to say maybe isn't willing to grow.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, because I like that too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we have to be careful in the like, yeah, requesting change means you have to be different because it's like, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying I'm not bringing this to you because you have to change.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm bringing this to you so you know my experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can consider think about ask questions and understand that is that something that you want to change about yourself or shift.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then you can, but this is my experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is my boundary.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I love that.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's such a good, like, clarification and reframe.

[SPEAKER_05]: So let's give people a little bit of like, okay, here's the, um, here's the gold at the end of the, here's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, right?

[SPEAKER_05]: couples who engage in this, it's obviously not something that it's not a light switch, it's something you work with on for a while forever.

[SPEAKER_05]: What does it look like?

[SPEAKER_05]: What does it begin to look like when you're putting this work in on a consistent basis with your partner?

[SPEAKER_02]: The word that came up for me was authentic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's genuine.

[SPEAKER_02]: You feel like you're able to be you, you're able to reveal yourself, and it feels ideally at safe, but that you're okay taking the risk.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure if that's the, you know, golden nugget because, you know, this is a slow process.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's, um, it's an idea to be growing into, but knowing yourself, doing that introspection, knowing what it is that you want to communicate in a clear kind, open way.

[SPEAKER_02]: in even if it's hurtful, like even if it's not a nice thing to say, we can still be kind, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Open kind, clear communication about what's happening for me and just, I don't know, did that answer?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, not totally, totally.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think it's like, [SPEAKER_05]: It creates more openness, even if the openness is to say something that's really difficult to hear and or say, I feel like what I'm experiencing with us in moving and this road together is we're just more resilient to difficult moments.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_05]: Is the difficult moments are still there, you know, like I'm thinking of [SPEAKER_05]: you know we had this like kind of rough moment at at the beach like about a month ago and it was very similar to what we've struggled with over the years but like [SPEAKER_05]: in forty five minutes or so it was over.

[SPEAKER_05]: Whereas it would have gone on a lot longer and it wouldn't have been resolution.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's just like, I'm resilient to your truths.

[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like you're more resilient to my truth.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're more receptive and accepting of each other.

[SPEAKER_05]: There will still be differences between us.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that's kind of part of it.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's like, at the baseline, that's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are different.

[SPEAKER_05]: We are different people.

[SPEAKER_05]: We are different people.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's a thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, we don't have to.

[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, this is like a huge thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I think this could go into a whole other episode had cast, but like a lot of couples we see like have lost attraction for each other.

[SPEAKER_04]: They either don't find the other person attractive anymore.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're intimacy in many areas has gone down.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that that's a function of not being able to be yourself in a relationship that really doesn't have to do with physical appearance at all, but that chipping away of not being able to be your authentic self.

[SPEAKER_04]: Letting go of yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, because if I say, I'm not able to be myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: You, it sounds like you're not letting me be myself, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm letting myself, I'm forgetting myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then I forget my desire.

[SPEAKER_02]: I give up these parts of me.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's your fault.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it must be like there's no way because other people will make me feel.

[SPEAKER_05]: You're not being who I want to be.

[SPEAKER_04]: Another podcast.

[SPEAKER_04]: You just put that in the back of your mouth.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, this was great.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I, [SPEAKER_05]: It has the times these concepts are like, we can get lost in defining them or whatever, but I feel like we did a really good job today of making it sort of practical.

[SPEAKER_05]: The differentiation is about [SPEAKER_05]: I can be me.

[SPEAKER_05]: You can be you.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can preserve that and still hear difficult things.

[SPEAKER_05]: We can talk about difficult things.

[SPEAKER_05]: You can feel strongly about something.

[SPEAKER_05]: I can feel strongly about it.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it doesn't have to be like an existential risk to our relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I will not actually bring us closer together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can't have thought of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can be me, you can be you, and we're okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay, you're okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're different.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I see it differently.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you see it differently.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's fields, who there's some tension there?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's hard for you to be different for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then it's like, what do you afraid of?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm afraid you're gonna leave if we're different.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not gonna leave.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Then we can be different.

[SPEAKER_04]: Such a sense of empowerment for the individual and for the system, for the couple.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, thank you so much, Leanne.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's always super fun.

[SPEAKER_05]: Leanne does incredible work at our center.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's always fun to talk with you just about the work.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it's just cool to have a mind working on the same thing, which is helping people be happier and more connected.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we'll get some recommendations like whether it's books or for listeners that they want to find out more about this.

[SPEAKER_04]: For some feedback, we'll put those all in the show notes to give you guys some like, you know, steps that you can take even if it's like a book at home you want to read.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's taking me, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: ten years to wrap my brain around like what is like what is differentiation and I feel like I'm just starting to understand it so but it's so cool because we cut off so many parts of ourselves to be okay in many different areas and then we we don't pay attention to the yeah and I'm knowingly cut off our partner from being who they are too for sure we don't mean to do it we're not a purpose yeah we're just we're just trying to human you know [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so if you know if this is a podcast that you've really enjoyed, you'll love the topic, you found something really stimulating about it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Please just share it with somebody and tell them about the episodes, send them into it as an attachment and a text.

[SPEAKER_05]: If you have more questions, things you want to know more about, please just reach out.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, send us an email, reach out to us via Instagram or whatever.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, thank you for being a part of our community.

[SPEAKER_05]: We appreciate y'all listening.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Leanne, for being your rock star therapist, self.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, E.J.

[SPEAKER_04]: for just being you and letting me grow.

[SPEAKER_04]: And as always, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

[SPEAKER_04]: Bye-bye.

[SPEAKER_04]: Bye-bye.