You see, something's going to happen.

What?

What's going to happen?

What?

Welcome to the Cult Rejects this episode.

We got a bunch of people with us, a bunch of rejects here and a very special guests, an author that I'm very very excited to have on, especially for this topic.

But before we introduce him, I'm going to reintroduce the other rejects today.

We got joining us at Jake Jay.

How do you say it like that?

The way you spelled that fucked me up, Jacqueline Jay Quillan say, okay, yeah, from Universe Unveiled.

Yeah, please introduce yourself one and everybody wants yep.

So I'm Jacqueline.

I'm the co host of Universe Unveiled podcast presented by the Institute for Natural Philosophy.

Yeah.

I'm really excited to be here.

Thank you Nick for the invite.

And I'm I think I'm going to get a little bit schooled, so I'm looking forward to that.

All right.

Yeah, I think all of us are really including myself, So yeah, I'm very much looking forward to this.

And we got my Managin the Ninja.

What is going on, sir?

Hey boss?

What's up?

Really good?

To be on this episode.

I've been looking forward to it, josh and I have been looking forward to it for all month pretty much, and I knew as soon as you sent me the email that this was one I definitely wanted on.

So you can check me out at Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints on ig and ex Twitter or at wukongrie Born, which is my personal account, and also our roundtable podcast which is The Gray Lodge, of which of course Joshua as a founding member, and if you're interested in that, we have a YouTube and we are live on x Friday night Nastic Masks every Friday six or seven, yes, depending on my mood.

So you can definitely check us out there and thank you so much.

I'm really looking forward.

To this listen.

Thank you and the branch.

What is going on, so please let everybody know what you deal with.

It's a pleasure to be here again so soon.

Yeah, I belong to the Gray Lodge.

We do some spaces every Friday night.

It's a lot of fun, very eclectic, speculative spaces and you can also find me on Instagram as Apocalyptic Aesthetic and on Twitter is w Burkin Umbrella.

Let's get into the names of God.

All right, sounds good.

Thank you very much, sir and Tyrone.

Please let everybody know what is up.

Well, I hope everybody so.

Yeah.

So I'm excited to be here like always, you know, I'm excited to learn something new.

Every day you wake up, you got to learn something new.

But everything you can find on and learn about me is on my website rebirth at theWord dot com.

I have a Rombo County, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter X all that stuff.

All I'm trying to do is just share what I've learned.

And that's it.

That's all I care about, is just sharing what I've learned.

That's it.

Thanks Nick, I appreciate that, bro.

Of course.

No, I appreciate you jumping on.

Thank you.

And for finally, last but not least, Ethan in the go, what's going on.

With by Ethan's book too?

Hey?

Hold up?

Sorry, buy Ethan's book too?

Yeah, everyone buy my book.

I always like to tell people you don't have to read it to buy it on trip.

No.

Honored to be here.

I always enjoy learning so much from the guests.

Shamie, this is going to be great and all the steam's co hosts easy to find on all the social media, and my.

Books are out there as well.

So appreciate being here.

Thanks Nick, oh, thank you, Thank you Ron.

And finally we got a guesst himself.

We have Jamie Paul Land and he does have a book that is going to be coming out, the astrological Gaisha the seventy two Keys to Angelic and Demonic Astrology.

Ooh, so very excited to have him here and to talk about that.

I have, you know, touched on the Goaishia numerous times on the show, but never like really went into it.

And we're not really consider myself someone to talk on it for a whole episode.

I just you know, I don't think I have those credentials.

So we have somebody here who can.

So I'm very excited about that.

Jamie.

Please let everybody know.

I guess you know what other stuff you have that you might want to promote, whether they can find anything.

Let everybody know where they can find you.

Well, I've got my website which is Jamie Paul lamb dot com, and on there I offer services like astrological consultation and taro and things.

But there's also you know, like I do courses in traditional astrology.

And other than that, I've got three other books out before Astrological Goishia, which are primarily Masonic focused, so they were done on smaller Masonic imprints, but they're available on Amazon.

If you just look up my name, you could see, you know, those books on Amazon.

This, in fact, the Astrological go Aisha is actually my first non Masonic book, and it's just based on a lot of studies and things into the Grimwire tradition and particularly Greco Egyptian magic like that you'd find in like the PGM, but all the way through the pick A Trix and that's those sort of Perso Arabic medieval grimoires, and yeah, that's basically my zone in the last couple of years, like maybe five years or so.

And yeah, all my work that I do on my website is kind of centered around that particular perspective.

But yeah, this is my first book that's not Masonic.

Like I said, the word Freemasonry is not even in this book anywhere, and I'm thinking that, you know, it's a much wider demographic, So I just wonder how this is going to play out.

But I'm very excited about this book, and it's a pleasure to be on occult rejects.

I appreciate it.

Oh no, thank you please as soon as you know, like I said, as soon as I got the email, as you know, let me know about you.

I looked at you stuff.

I was like, oh, oh, I got to get this guy on.

I was truly excited to cover this time.

Yeah.

So I guess real quick.

Oh, you know, you had mentioned like the Freemason Freemason books I know on your site.

I think, if you don't mind, maybe I know like you.

I think you've had experience as being a Freemason member, and you are also associated with like Mark Stavish and stuff like that.

I don't know if you wanted to promote that or just go over that real quick too.

Sure.

Yeah, I'm the instructor of astrology at Mark Estavish's Institute for Hermetic Studies, and he and I are very close and I've known him a number of years.

And uh yeah, I pretty much I've done a lot of speaking just all over the US on the Masonic circuit.

But like I said that, I'm sort of segueing into the broader astrological sort of millieu.

Right and next, In fact, I got a really good opportunity in twenty twenty I've been I applied to speak at YUAC, which is the super Bowl of astrology conferences, and it's in Chicago.

It's the big astro conference.

So I'm speaking there in twenty twenty six.

So I'm very excited about that, you know, and they in fact put me on a good slot too, I think on Saturday at like four thirty, right, Yeah, so you really looking forward to that.

I think that's going to bring a lot of visibility to my work, you know, which is always nice.

I definitely think that will help for sure.

Congratulations, Yeah, thank you.

What brought you to I guess what was the reason for you writing this book?

Like, what was going to be different about this book than all the other go Gaatia books out there?

Well, because I've been focusing on that the last few years, I've I in fact found a little chestnut that nobody has read and about before.

So that's what, you know, that's kind of the aim.

I think when you're writing a book, you want to have a novel thesis, something that hasn't been trampled all over for hundreds of years.

And I found something that has never been worked up in the literature, and I've never heard anybody talk about it.

So it's basically using the quineries, so the angelic and demonic five degree arc segments of the ecliptic and using those in astrological delineation.

So if that sounds too specialized, I could say it another way.

It's something that you can use to delineate a chart, right everybody, you know, how in regular just traditional astrology, everybody has the planets against the zodiac, and the planets are sort of colorized by the by the particular zodiac sign that they're in.

It it sort of blends significations and changes the sort of quality of that planetary expression.

Like if you have Jupiter in cancer, that's like different than having Jupiter in areas.

You know, there's a total it's it's jubiterarian, but it's a different Jupiter.

So so according to quinarian astrology, which is what I've been calling this, your planets are also in a certain quinery at any given time, Like you might have your son in the you know, fifteenth quinery, you know, and and it's just you know, depending on the angel or demon that rules that segment of the ecliptic, and they're five degrees each that that sort of colors the interpretation of that planet.

Now, I was doing this a number of years ago.

I was doing this probably ten years ago, and I was thinking about which quinery my planets were in, not just my son, but all your planets, right, And I was like, has anybody talked about this?

Has this been something that people have you know, worked over already?

And I found that that hasn't been the case, that there's no record of it in the literature.

So I was like, you know, kind of a no brainer.

I was like, I've got to write this book, you know.

So that's kind of what started this project, is necessity really at first, because I wanted to do that for my own chart and the charts of people who I you know, I read their nativities for, you know, and I wanted to be able to tell them about the demons and angels.

So it's a totally different perspective on, uh, the delineation of planets because instead of merely looking at them in the sign or in the decan, you could look at them more more even you know, exact, You can get an exact picture of them in a five degree arc segment as opposed to ten or thirty degrees ten for the decand thirty for the sign, you know.

So it's just fine tuning things.

And I was attracted to the idea.

Nice is that too much?

Is that too because I could break that down more.

Yeah, you should have kept going like the Energizer bunny because I was you shouldn't even stop.

I was gonna ask you, uh yeah, well I understood where you're going with it, and I just wanted to say, like for the listeners and people even on the panel or aren't maybe even quite sure about the Croatia, maybe I should have asked this first.

But I mean, it's really no big deal.

What do you think the point of the gowai and the way you're looking at it, Like, what's the point of the book, Like what do you think that actually is?

You know what I'm saying like that?

So yeah, yeah, I think I do.

So.

I'm I believe in magic as an objective phenomenon, you know, so for me, it's not psychologized.

I don't believe that the Goiesha, for example, the demons of the artist Goiesia.

I believe that they have an objective ontology or reality of their own, you know, And it's not contingent on how like me psychologically projecting that into the world.

So I believe in their reality, the demons reality, you know, as being real.

You know that there are these demonic forces, right, these entities really and same thing with angels, though they might be a little more abstract like angels.

They've been talked about from Ius all the way through John D.

People have talked about the angels as being mathematical equations, you know, they're they're more like abstract mathematical entities, which makes sense to me.

That's that doesn't lessen their their sort of reality as an entity just because they're abstract.

You know, it's kind of a platonic thing.

There's forms, and then they get more and more solid as you go down the scale from from the one to the no way realm.

Yeah, exactly, and all the way down to like kabalistically what you would call malcoot or or I what's us A S S I S.

Yeah, you know, actually you're talking about Plato in the one.

I actually dropped a two our showing up Plutonius yesterday.

Oh great, Yeah, I'm into that stuff for sure.

Oh yeah.

So all that to say that, obviously, the way that that the worldview that we inherit as modern day Westerners is one of matter and energy, you know, and one that is scientific but at the sort of peril of you know, this material paradigm.

Right, So I believe that there should be room for the metaphysical, and that we don't need to think of it in terms of like, here's a popular thing the last twenty five years or so that quantum entanglement and theoretical physics and all this sort of stuff explains a way magic.

I don't think that it does, because I look at magic, like it says in Agrippa the picka tricks all the way back.

It says, magic is simply a cult causality.

It's causality, but you can't see the causal agent, you know, So it's a hidden causality.

You know, something happens as if by magic, you know, not like you know, me getting up and physically doing something or you know.

So I think that I think that it's time to reclaim that worldview.

And it's something that's difficult to change, of course, So this atheistic materialism is difficult to get over.

It's difficult to you know, build upon that other than physically.

But I think when we talk about magic, we're talking about metaphysics.

It's beyond the physical realm.

So if you if you try and express it or explain it as being quantum this or energy that, or psychologically this or that, you're you're automatically veering away from magic and you're into the physical again.

So it's not a Medai.

Does that make sense.

It's not a it's not a physics, it's a metaphysics.

I totally get that.

Yeah, Jin Josh.

If you guys want to ask anything specific, do.

You I have a quick one, Jamie.

Do you feel that angels occupy the same ontological or even cosmological space as the goet experience.

No.

I think of angels as being in this sort of beyond the oakdo ad, so the fixed stars in the zodiac or Hokma if you prefer, I look at the angels as being entities that are in the essentially the any attic realm, right that they are noetic and and further than that, I think of demons as being at or below the do ad, because of course you get aerial demons and fiery demons, but you also get stellar demons like those are that are found among the Deccans, the decanal demons, and now in the quinnaries like the of the ars go Issha, these goetic demons.

They're also on or below the do Ad, the eighth sphere.

So in the in your typical like Platonic and Kabbalistic models, right cosmological models, you find that that's kind of the cutoff point.

Everything can be physical or astral up to the up to and including the do Ad, but beyond that you're ending, You're you're getting into the super celestial as a Grippa would call it.

And these are these are entities that are you know, abstract sort of.

So angels have always been described as that pretty much.

And angels angelos right there it means messenger.

They're messengers from the one to the through down to thysis what the Greeks would call it physis.

And you know, again that Platonic model of the one or tohen and then the no edic realm, and then the the sort of astral us astral realm of us psyche and then down to.

Uh, sorry, Jamie, when you're saying psyche, could you be referring to your sod or that Youde death.

Connection yeah, I guess you could say in that zone, right, because that would be the planetary zone.

When you go from Beina down to Ysoude.

You're really talking about Saturn down to the Moon.

So we happen to live in the sublunary world right where humans inhabit the sub lunar realm, that is to say, below the moon, so the astral realms and of Psyche, you know, would be between the Moon and all the way up into Hokmah, the fixed stars and the zodiac.

So it's.

You're one of the first ocultists.

Sorry Jimmy, but you're one of the first ocultists I've really heard refer to Hokmah as being this place of fixed stars.

I also refer to it as like a place of flux, a smoky place sometimes, but it's good to hear that.

I'm not totally you know, out on an island, right.

Yeah, it's it's you know, I definitely think these models are compatible.

And if you look at the Tree of Life, doesn't it Yeah, the fixed stars, fixed stars in the zodiac.

If you look at the Tree of Life, it's really just the Ptolemaic cosmos with Malcouth being the the you know, the realm of the four Empedoclian elements, you know that are in a state of flux, a state of what Aristotle would call generation and corruption.

And then once you get up to the moon and that sort of etheric sphere and beyond, then you're talking about you know, the astral or the realm, corresponding to psyche in the Platonic and neo Platonic cosmology, and uh yeah, going all the way up again to Hokma fixed stars in the zodiac, and then you have you know, uh, Cather which is like the ani attic zone or maybe the sort of maybe even beyond that to some extent, or maybe that would be on I'm so fine so far where you're really into that abstract angelic world, super celestial.

It was like beyond like they're almost formless.

Yeah, yeah, abstract platonic an idea or a form capital I capital F.

Could you say epanoya?

May say that again, what.

Do you think of using the word epanoya to describe what you're talking about?

Epanoia?

I haven't read that word, but I can kind of think of that.

You're saying beyond the noose, right, yes, yeah, so beyond the noose.

Yeah, I mean, because the news begins, if we're speaking kabalistically, the noetic realm begins after the fixed stars in the zodiac.

We and this is something I really dig very deeply into in my book because when we're talking about that the intellectual world, right, the abstract intellectual world news or the noetic world.

What's what's interesting about my book is that this is the first astrology that's actually dealing And this is one of the sort of hidden jewels of this book that I hope people understand is that I'm using the method of astrology, right, I'm astrologizing the noetic realm with this technique that's to my knowledge that's never been done before.

You know, to get into this demonic and angelic astrology is to use the the method that has normally been applied to everything from Ysoude to Hokma that is to say, from really the world like the Malkuth or Asia all the way up to Hokmah, the fixed stars in the zodiac.

That's where our magic has has been and our astrology has been.

But this is to take astrology beyond the odoad.

So now we're we're using the methods of astrology to work with angels and demons, so and I've never seen that before.

So I think that's something that's of interest, is these these you know, philosophical implications of this sort of astrology, Like you have Agrippa for example.

Agrippa has three books and they're cosmological because book one is element mental and sort of natural, the natural world, elemental world, that is to say, the sub lunar.

The second book is sort of astral and celestial, that is to say, this zone between the moon and the fixed stars and the zodiac and everything in between, all the planets, and then beyond that is what a grip calls the super celestial.

So that's that's the nouse or the noose, and that's this abstract plane, and that's where Plato's forms are.

That's that's the realm of ideas.

It's the intellectual world, and you have angels there, right.

So if we're using the methods of astrology, but we're we are using that, but we're puncturing the okdo ad the a sphere and applying those methods for the first time, I believe astrologically.

Does that make sense.

It's really quite profound.

What you're saying Actually, to be honest, yeah, I don't know.

I thought so too.

Right years ago, I was thinking about this stuff and I looked and nobody was talking about it.

Nobody had written anything about it.

I mean, I'm sure people have worked this before, but they they left no record.

They left no record.

So it's pretty I mean, it's it's really interesting.

Yeah, real quick too, not to get I guess, like too much of the book unless this is in there, I have no idea, but like, I guess, does this change or like, how would you ritualistically the way this is supposed to be done.

Would it's still be is as like it's normally be suggested in the past, or does anything changed with that?

Not too much?

I mean, if you ever made like an angelic talisman, you know, have the sigil of the archangel on a talisman that you're creating right, that has been done right.

But typically for an election, when you elect, when to do something an astrological election is when you preconceive of a time and day that you want to set a cycle in motion.

When you do that, you could you know, you could use the chain of being essentially like the solar chain of being comes from the abstract sun, then into the the physical sun in space, and then into the animal mineral, vegetable world through like Saint John's war, roosters, lions, actual gold.

You know, there's this chain.

Every planet has a a chain that is stratified through the worlds, you know, from the intellectual the sun behind the sun, the idea of the sun, and then into the astral or celestial the actual sun, the you know, fiery ball that we see, and then down into below the below you sewed in the sub lunary world.

That's where we find you know, like lions and roosters and Saint John's wort and everything that is on the solar chain or the Solar series I believe they called it SerII.

You know, was like having to do with this chain of being, and of course Ficino dealt a lot with this, but it goes all the way back to the Neoplaitis as well, and the hermatists antiqukermatism.

This it almost sounds like if you were to take like the full worlds are different.

It was slightly like that.

If you look at it cabalistically.

Yeah, you could definitely it tracks very nicely with the four worlds, where you have you have absolute as being the most abstract, and then Bria just a little more density, and then Yatsura which is kind of planetary and celestial, and then Asia which is you know, elemental and natural sub lunary.

So everything everything in magic fits this sort of scale, right, everybody who's ever written about it, seriously, like all the Grimoire magicians and the people who compose this stuff, we're working on a very similar worldview.

And if you're going to understand astrology and magic and alchemy, the three hermetic arts, right, astrology, alchemy, and the orgy or magic if you are that's a form of magic.

It's a lot wider than that.

But if you're going to understand the harmatic arts, you have to know the cosmology they're working with.

You know, you have to know what world you're in essentially, and sometimes you have to stack your synthomata as they call it, which are representations of that let's say solar entity, right, you have you have to like be able to suspend those in a chain.

If you're going to do say, say a talisman, Let's say you're going to make a talisman, you know you would do it.

And again we'll just use the Sun because it's easy.

If you're going to make a talisman, you have to do it when the sun is in Leo or maybe Aries, because the sun is exalted in areas and the Sun rules Leo.

So I'd put the sun in one of those two signs.

I would do this on a Sunday, which is the day ruled by the Sun, and I would I would do it during a solar hour.

The hours of the day, the natural hours of the day.

They expand and contract depending on daytime, nighttime, and the equinoctial points.

But I would do it during a solar hour, and I would set up as much symtematic as possible.

I would burn the appropriate fumigation.

I would I would have I would have like a yellow candle.

You know, I do this stuff all the time, making talismans.

Yeah, that's I've mentioned on the show that like even myself when I would make tealismans, like if I was like, let's say, putting Jupiter or Mercury together is a good mix, you know, I could pick like, you know, I'll do a Thursday on like the hour Mercury, or I'll do it on Wednesday on the hour of Jupiter, like when I make the talisman, and like, yeah, I may not even do the ritual then, but I'm gonna pick that day in time to even construct the talisman to make it for the ritual that I'm eventually gonna do, and then that will even match.

That will even match again the hour the planets that I just made for the talisman.

And like you said, I would construct my own incense.

I'd make my own mixes, and the candles would match the colors.

Sometimes even the ul the cloth I'd use would even still match colors.

I would have interchange the stuff.

I was very you know, I guess overdne but it works for me.

Yeah, yeah, but that's it's great to hear somebody else say that.

I was like, oh shit, yeah, it's a good practice, right.

And you know, a lot of people in the grim March, so here's a little bit of a mix up, right, A lot of people who are more familiar with the operative magical procedures, you know, they're they're familiar with grimoire magic and stuff like that.

They sort of stop at planetary day and hour, you know, Sunday on an hour of the sun, and that's kind of the you know, and that's good, right, But if you want like an eight or nine point sun, you know, a very strong talisman, then you've got to do it in Leo or Ares, and you have to do it in like the bound or term of the Sun, and maybe even also in the decan, the solar decan, if there is one in Leo.

Right, So if you have decan term or yeah, decan term and the triplicity rulership like the sun by day and and you also have like the day and hour, and you have the Sun in domicile or in exaltation, you want to stack as much of that as possible, and it goes beyond merely having the planetary day and hour.

If you're doing a.

Whole chart, actually you could get crazy stuff.

Yeah, for sure, you can get you can get totally crazy.

Did you do you just random question?

Sorry?

Do you have an experience with the hexagrammatul.

M m No.

Okay, that's literally that's literally above my grade right now.

Okay, I just know what's for planet.

I use it for planetary and energy.

So I'm just wondering if I've seen it used and I understand how you know the hexagram and the six six planets with the Sun in the middle.

So I understand the premise of it.

I just haven't personally practiced that because I'm just coming up to the portal grade in Golden Dawn right now, so I haven't.

I haven't worked any of the adept Die grades yet, gotcha.

But I've been in.

I've been in for like seven I think I've been in seven or eight years, and you know, I've been just going through it kind of slowly, in with an organization, not like self initiation or whatever.

I'm in a Golden Dawn temple that meets and we're active and stuff, but it's just taking time.

I in fact have to go to uh Victoria, British Columbia to get my portal grade because that's where one of the chiefs is, you know, So it's I have to fly for my grades typically.

Okay, Now, I was just I was just wondering because of the planetary stuff.

Sure, yeah, we kind of veered off there, but yeah, it sounds like you know, something of the Golden dawns Oh sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Well I was in the OTO for a minute, so I mean, oh, I was too.

Oh I'm so sorry.

Yeah, right, yeah, it was about it was about twelve or thirteen years ago.

I was in to Hoodie Lodge.

In New York City, fuck Otty, that's where I was, man.

Yeah, yeah, I got my minerval on first first degree there.

Holy, I'll talk to you.

I'm just wondering who the lodge mason wasn't that's interesting?

All right?

Imagine I was there with you one did even realize they'd be fucking bugged out?

All right?

No?

So continue?

Uh back to the Goisha.

Yeah.

I was just asking if there was any different difference in rituals, and you were in the ritual the way that it's done, and you said no, So uh yeah, you answered my question.

Does anybody else.

Have any the way it's done in the Goishia?

Right?

Yeah, you could use the same practices that you would use in Mather's translation of the Gosha.

You know.

Yeah, That's basically what I was getting at.

Is it gonna change?

Look at that one.

It doesn't negate any of that nice nice all right, No, that's great, but but it adds the astrological components.

So that's another thing that I think is important about this work is that, you know, people think they can get by knowing the minimum of astrology, and that's kind of not the case.

If you're going to skimp on anything, you should do it elsewhere because you need to have the astrological stuff in order.

There's no way getting around.

If you're going to do proper alchemy and proper magic, you kind of have to know astrology pretty well.

You have to be proficient, right or or there's a lot of room for error.

But you can't make a talisman not knowing anything about astrology.

Yeah, I mean, I think it would help to have a little bit understanding.

Yeah, and and cosmologically too, like we were talking about, you have to have a picture.

You have to have a world picture.

You have to have a paradigm, a cosmological paradigm that you that you understand.

And it could be different.

Like, well, here's something I talk about in there as well, and and in other places, is that is that astrology and magic and alchemy these are not geocentric models.

They're georeferential, you know, Like I tell people this all the time.

If you're looking let's say you're out in space and you're at the celestial north and you're looking down at our solar system, so you see the sun in the middle.

You see the planets going around it, right, Can you visualize that you're in celestial north looking down in our solar system.

All you have to do to astrologize is take the pin out of the Sun and stick it in the Earth and keep all the other motions the same.

You're just envisioning the Earth as the stationary object.

Every other movement is the same.

Nobody asks you to believe anything that's wrong or antiquated.

You don't have to believe that it's geocentric because it's not geocentric, it's georeferential.

Because the Earth, as earthlings, that's our locus of human consciousness.

The locus of human consciousness is the Earth.

We experience the cosmos from the perspective of the Earth.

So again, nobody's asking me to believe anything that's wrong or you know that's like anti Copernican or anything.

So you know, I mean not that we not that we need science to defend our magic.

In fact, once you apply science to magic, it ceases to become magic and it just becomes physics.

Right, So you don't need you don't need the atheistic materialism and nihilism that modern scientific paradigm's supply right or imply.

Yeah, I've got to.

I've got a pretty radical view about that sort of stuff, like I don't need to psychologize magic or astrology.

I don't need to quantumize it, or I believe in it as it is.

You know, it's a metaphysics, so I'm not trying to explain it away by quantum and physics and theoretical physics and psychology.

You know a lot of people you'd be surprised a lot of people do that.

I know tons of people who are practicing magicians, let's say, or and alchemists and astrologers who try and put either a psychological or a physical a sort of veneer on it so they don't feel embarrassed.

Yeah, I can see.

Did anybody have any questions?

I was wondering on sort of like a nuts and bolts question of implementing the angels and demons into an astrological reading.

Have you found that it provides nuances or enhancements, or even maybe might contrary, might provide a contrary reading in some cases, or can you break down any of that?

Sure?

Yeah, so it's pretty much the way that you would use planets and zions.

You could use a planet in a quinary.

So uh, let's say, you know, and I give many examples in the book, like let's and you could use it in elections too, like if you want to want to set a cycle in motion, you can when you're electing your chart that show you know, for some point in the future when you want to, say, consecrate a talisman or pick a herb, you could use the planets in these specific quinaries because each of them is ruled or governed by an angel demon pair.

There's an angelic sort of there's the angel that's from the schemhamphr Ash, and there's the demon that's from the Artiskoesha.

Now here's I should have said this right at the beginning.

The model that I'm working with is your typical pre Enlightenment model, right, So from antiquity all the way through the Enlightenment.

Of course, that the Enlightenment, which I don't even like the name of that movement, the Enlightenment was detrimental to magic and astrology in alchemy because that's where we veer into atheistic materialism.

And that's why, all right, here's something interesting, that's why that's when astrology becomes esoteric.

That's where alchemy becomes esoteric and where magic becomes esoteric after the Enlightenment, because they were not esoteric before the Enlightenment.

They were just part of your typical worldview, right, So once these become rejected sciences, which is what I think Wuter Honograph talked about the dust bin of rejected sciences, and that's what you get when after the Enlightenment, because it's been sort of, you know, a species of positivism has moved in there and made it so the enchanted world is finished, you know.

So it's for this stuff you have to have an enchanted worldview in order to you know, do it in the context of how the ancients did it.

You have to have an enchanted worldview.

If you don't have that, you're you're not you're not working a metaphysic.

You're messing around with some sort of theoretical physics, physics or some sort of psychology, you know.

But anyway, I was saying that, why was I saying that you had a question?

Well, I was blown away just now by your piercing the label of the Enlightenment era and pointing out that that's actually the beginning of the atheistic materialism.

Bravo, right, great point.

Well, but but I was asking just how.

Including the.

Implementing this aspect of readings or or might even provide a contrary idea to the established reading that you might.

Get sure exactly.

So, yes, it changes things, and it adds nuanced you know, and ith you know, it could put a finer point on things.

I've never found it to be contradictory per se.

But you know a lot of this is it's a hermeneutics, right, It's interpreted, so we have to we have to apply.

That's the art of astrology.

You know.

There's there's the science y sort of stuff, which is all the math and the cosmological stuff.

But the art of astrology, which I think of astrology as primarily being an art.

The art of astrology is the interpretation, you know, like a planet in a sign in a house and how it is aspected by other planets so or yeah, so yeah, the couineries kind of change that or they accentuate that on a finer point because you're dealing with a smaller arc segment.

But here's one thing that might be helpful to your listeners is astrology has become something really gross it's like a hippified New Age kind of fluff that's always positive and everything's an opportunity.

You know.

That's twentieth century posts theosophical astrology, which I think is garbage.

The astrology of the last one hundred or two years is primarily trash, and it's based on like what they call the twelve letter twelve letter model or something I forget, twelve letter alphabet or something where it's like they they have such a misunderstanding that they could say that Mars equals Areas equals the first house, you know, like and do all their delineations based on this, you know, super simplistic, overly simplified perspective, right whereas you know you want to think of it.

The best way to explain it is the theater analogy.

Anybody familiar with the theater analogy in astrology, I'll tell you.

What it is.

It's it's it's planets in signs, in houses, and having aspects with each other.

The four you know, planets, signs, houses, and aspects, the four major elements of astrology.

Planets are in science, they're in houses, and they aspect each other.

Is the same as an actor in wardrobe on a set and having dialogue.

Is that's it's kind of one for one.

The actor has wordrobon and they're on a set or in a certain place on the stage, and they're having dialogue with other actors.

Right, that's the same as a planet in a sign in a house and having aspects with each other.

So it's kind of it's a good analogy to use because imagine, you know, imagine the actor he or she puts on a wardrobe and that sort of changes or colorizes their natural planetary expression, and then they're they're on a set like say you've got a kitchenett over here and a couch and a writing desk.

You know that the actor could be at any number of those houses or sets, and then they have aspects the planet's aspect and the actors have dialogue.

So it's I don't know if I did a great job of explaining that, but it's called the theater analogy.

Did that make sense?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah it maybe me.

Think about God, I forgot what they were called.

I think didn't Crowley do some stuff on like these like drawn out plays that are kind of on planetary energies.

Yeah, he had the rights of a lusis and all of them they had very they had very little to do with the leuses.

There were more like his, his his sort of invention, and he hit.

He did it for each of the planets.

I've seen the right of Mars in Santa Fe one time.

Ice.

That's cool.

Uh, anybody else want to ask?

Now?

Is it?

Let me ask?

Is this?

I'm really trying to make sense and trying to be clear, but I have I got to tell you, it's really difficult to do to be clear when you're talking about this stuff that's kind of abstruse.

It's kind of specialized.

Like I could tell you that my book, The Astrological Goesha, I do a full on astrological orientation.

I do a Kabbalistic orientation.

I talk about magic and and really build it up from zero.

You don't have to know anything to get something out of this book because I kind of go through all that.

While while I don't have the time or space to really build up, uh, the entirety of an astrological worldview, I do enough to where you could read the book and it makes sense.

Obviously you could probably tell I'm pretty opinionated about this stuff, and I think that's probably unattractive as well.

But I'm just making a claim, right.

Basics then, right, m hmm.

You just they said, well stick to the basics.

You stick to the basics in your first and in which book that you say, like the foundations, like what the basics is of it?

Yeah?

Yeah, And I really tried to have out of all my books, this has this one.

I have the best voice.

I really worked on my voice for this, my literature voice, right, Like, I'm very clear.

I try to be transparent, you know.

I just talk about the ideas and I try and do it in a way that is accessible.

So whereas in some of my Masonic books, I was very cruel to the reader.

You know.

I used a lot of you know, fifty dollars words, and they were the right words.

They were the specialized word for what I was talking about.

But nobody knows that stuff.

No, I hear what you're saying.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

You're mentioning Jamie about I don't want to put the term in there, but just the overall dilution of astrology in the last one hundred and two hundred years.

I wonder what your contemporaries in the Masonic organizations, what they felt about astrology and total or maybe that they had some insights about it that were contrary.

Most Masons don't know anything about astrology, you know, so good or bad, modern or traditional.

Most they weren't necessarily against it because it was hippie fied.

I think that wasn't even you know, an issue that was raised.

They were, if anything, right, Well, here's what Masons are interested in.

They're interested in the cosmological symbolism and the sort of precessional symbolism that's different than the astrology.

They're more into the cosmological stuff, and they are into this cosmological particularly precessional symbolism is rampant in Masonic ritual and art.

You know what I mean by that is Freemasonry's Anto Lucas.

The year of light is four thousand BCE.

That's so now we're in the masonically, we're in the year sixty twenty eight Anna Lucas.

That's when you see a Masonic document or a cornerstone, they typically give the anti Lucas and this year they would say sixty twenty or I'm sorry, sixty twenty what a wait at five?

Yeah, sixty twenty five Because you're just adding four thousand to this date.

So if you go back to that first year of Anti Lucas, it's four thousand BCE, which means you're in the Torrean precessional age.

That means Taurus is rising on the eastern horizon at the vernal equinox, you know, the spring equinox, the traditional beginning of the year.

That's where the sun was rising in Taurus equinoctially at that time.

So their symbolism supporting that in masonry, you know, and it's very like it's definitely there, you know, I'm not just kind of trying to find it, you know, and and you know, accentuate it because it's already it's already there.

I mean they use the tetramorph the lion, the bull, the man, and the eagle, you know, for the four fixed signs, and that's part of the symbolism, and not just in masonry, but in Christianity in a lot of traditions.

I think I've even seen that on two all the time too.

Oh it's yeah.

In the World card they're up in the corners.

M hm.

When it comes to well, uh, do you practice sole amount of magic?

Then?

Are you you know, how do you view that?

Yeah, I mean I've I've done some of those operations, but well.

I would assume, like, is that how you go about with the You're working with the Gaisia just through sol amount.

Of Well, so I don't work it exactly the way it is in the Goieshia, because my focus is more Greco Egyptian magic and like you would find in the PGM, but also medieval Perso Arabic magic.

I like, that's my favorite stuff, is the hermetic magic of antiquity and the hermetic magic of the Islamic Golden Age.

Basically when you had when you had actually the last holdout of the antique hermatists was in I want to say, the year six hundred or nine hundred.

Right in there somewhere you had what they what they were known as, was the Sabians of Heran, the Sabians of Haran.

Iran is this place that's in eastern Turkey.

That was the last place where you had Hermetic paganism.

That was an unbroken chain, unbroken chain stretching from Hermi's trist Ma Justice through like the Neoplatonists, et cetera, through the Hermetists and all the way up to the Sabians of Heran in an unbroken transmission.

And that's what we call hermetism.

That's antique hermatism, which is the you know, the doctrines of Hermis trist Ma justice.

But the way you get hermeticism, her Meticism is different than hermatism is after the fall of the Byzantine.

So the Sabians of Heran got snuffed out and there goes the last of antique hermatism, and it was it was totally defunct for for let me see how many years, about eight hundred seven or eight hundred years, and then the fall of the Byzantine happens, and then all that Platonic and Hermetic literature comes to the the court to Medici where you where Marsilio Ficino starts to translate that stuff.

And this this sparks a new Hermetic revival, and that in turn sparks the Renaissance.

You wouldn't get a Renaissance without the Hermetic revival in Florence.

Yeah, the Medici's paid a fina to do that.

Well, they paid Yeah, Yeah, he did Platos right, I think he did both of the Indians.

No, did he translate any Yeah.

Yeah, I think he did some platonis.

He definitely did the Hermetic corpus.

I mean maybe even the Discourse on the eighth and ninth, but I know he did the court.

What we realized, what we tend to refer to as the Corpus hermeticum is those seventeen books, the seventeen books of the Hermetic corpus, the popular ones that you get, they're typically together, you know, there's like seventeen books and Marsilio Ficino translated those, and that was just blowing everybody's mind.

Yeah, like I had a huge impact.

I think, yeah, well he started I mean you could say he started the Renaissance, so that's kind of a yeah, kind of an impact.

Uh oh, yeah, that was interesting, all right.

I was just wondering if because then that we get into the whole thing, like, you know, depending if you're doing I guess, you know, the psalomonic I was gonna like, are you actually you know, getting the triangle?

Do you think you're actually.

Oh, yeah, you know, I don't have the gear, but I've done goetic operations typically, you know, I've used taro to do that, because if you have a tarot deck, you can make a temple.

A temple is a cosmological structure, right.

A temple is you have the altar as an axis MOUNDI, and you have directionality from there, the cardinal directions, and you're basically, well, that's what theurgy is.

It's a demiurgy that we participate with God.

It's it's a theurgy is working with God or working as God.

So you're creating a cosmos.

And if you're creating a cosmos, that's that's a demiurgy, right, And that's that's why Eomboloicus called magic or theurgy microcosmogenesis.

You said, creating a little world microcosmogenesis.

So every time you do a magical operation, you're basically you know, if you're doing like you're banishing ritual or whatever you do, you're essentially making a cosmos.

Uh and an axis moondy.

I bring that up because because tarot cards have a cosmological aspect to them.

You know where if you take the pip cards, there's thirty there's thirty six pip cards and those correspond to the decans or faces.

The thirty six faces, thirty six decans.

The you have all the planets in there.

You know, the planets.

You have the you have the Moon with the High Priestess, you have Mercury with the Magis or the Magician and so forth.

You have the seven visible planets, you have all the zodiacal signs, like like the Emperor is Ares.

Yeah, and you have three of the elements.

So yeah, so you're basically you can use tarot deck to make a working space.

And I've done a lot of that, you know, in the absence of getting all the gear.

I've used tarot Tarot cards almost kind of like talismans to try to get to try to use them to to kind of represent what I'm trying to get out, Like like I use more than one card sometimes, yeah, sure, and yeah, like again like you were even saying, I would use it even for the attributions on the card too as well.

Yeah, and I use g D attributions.

There's a lot of different method There's the continental or French correspondences to the tarot, which Eliphis Levy used.

Valentine Tomberg, who wrote Meditations on the Tarot, he used those.

Yeah, a lot of people have all those French Martinists and rescreations, they used continental attributions.

I prefer the Golden Dawn attributions from the Cipher manuscript the original ciphers, right, yeah.

Yeah.

In fact, one of the chiefs of our Golden Dawn Order did the the totally exhaustive and definitive version of the the Cyber Manuscripts and published it a number of years ago.

And it goes out of print sometimes and it's like three hundred bucks for you know, one hundred and twenty page paperback.

I forgot.

I was lucky I got.

I got it when it was like nineteen bucks or something.

Yeah.

I feel like a lot of orders have them.

Yeah, those Cipher manuscripts is where we get.

Yeah, like even the oto basically suffering that's cipher and then technically.

Right, yeah and O t o.

So Crowley built upon the Golden Dawn correspondences, except he changed some things.

He changed like Zody, he moved it.

He switched Zadi with I think the Emperor, and he switched those Remember how he says in the in the the what do you call it, the little Red Book that you get the Book of the Law.

In the Book of the Law, he said, he said, Zadi is not the star.

So he switched it with the Hermit or the rather the the what do you call him?

The Emperor?

Yeah, so I don't like that.

I don't like that correspondence.

I like the Golden Dawn one.

But uh, but if you're ot O, you end up, you know, sometimes using that switch, you.

Know, and know like in the Tarot that he switches a few things too.

Yeah, yeah, well the Golden Dawn switched the uh the strength and uh which one was it?

Strength?

And I think, uh.

Justice, yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Well one thing real quick, since I have you on the show, is somebody who's affiliated with the Golden doing did Alas and Croley?

Right, the Pentagram and the Hexagram rituals?

No, he did not know so many people think like he did, like every all those rituals he wrote.

You know, here's something interesting about that.

A lot of people say, a lot of people just refer to it as the Lesser Banishing Ye did they call it the lb r P as if that's the only mode of that ritual it's in the Golden Dawn.

They called it the lesser Ritual of the Pentagram.

And you had invoking and vanishing modes, you had all the elemental modes, including ether or spirit.

So there's actually ten there's ten different modes of that lesser ritual of the pentagram, depending on what you want to do.

What if you want to what if you're taking a test, like you have to take a test, I would do an invoking air ritual.

So instead of doing that earth pentagram that people do, the vanishing earth pentagram, I would do an invoking air pentagram because you're invoking the intellect, you know.

So it's actually it's actually quite quite a quite a nice ritual.

I mean, for a while, I actually enjoyed that.

Yeah mm, very useful, very simple and pragmatic.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, oh no, I get what you're saying.

That's cool.

I'd ask one I hate to portray things, but could I ask one more romant question.

So within the lodge, can you maybe speculate for a moment, because when you said the lodge could be kind of constructed with the major trump cards as how I interpreted it, I was curious, then, do you think that the movements of the officers within during a lodge ceremony is that somehow analogous to like the movement of planets and things.

Because I've kind of wondered this in my own mind.

Yeah, there's what they call circumambulation, and it is.

Yeah, some of that can be seen as cosmic, you know, like particularly the circumambulations of the candidate during the third degree.

The third degree has particular movements, some of which are are like you go into the underworld and and you have in fact, you have the senior deacon who conducts the candidate, and the senior deacon is mercurial, so he's like the mercurial sort of exemplar, and that's one of the hermetic points in the craft of freemasonry out of many, right, But because you know how mercury, Mercury guides the sun into the underworld, Mercury and Venus are always within twenty seven and forty eight degrees of the sun, respectively.

Mercury is always within twenty seven degrees and Venus is always within forty eight degrees of the sun.

So when you get that primary motion they call it rising in the east, setting in the west, call me in the south, and setting it in the west, you'll find that mercury is the conductor of the sun.

So that particular circumambulation has a pretty concrete planetary interpretation, But there are others, Yeah, that.

Was lovely, Thank you so much.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Uh oh no, it's it's back again and some other noise now too, so we'll probably just wrap it up.

Oh it's good enough anyway.

Uh yeah, uh yeah, I guess so real quick, Jamie, let people know where they can find all your stuff.

Whatever you want to try to plug.

Yeah, I do have a I hate Facebook, so I use my sister in laws.

I use my sister in law's account and she lets me have like my author page appendant to her account.

So I do have an author page, but I can't get messages or anything like that.

So but it does.

I do put important events up there, you know.

I get on there about once a week or so and put all events up there.

And I did make an event for my book release too on September twenty third, So if you want to come to that you could just yeah, and then and then my website, please visit Jamie Paul Lamb dot com, j I M J A I M E P A U L l A m B dot com.

Listen and I'll make sure I include that in the bottom.

Uh yeah, and everybody else that was on the show.

I will include the show notes in the bottom.

I will include your website and all the other stuff that you left.

I'll make sure that those links are in the bottom.

Uh.

Thank you very much again, Jamie for coming on very interesting take on this and it's you know, it piqued my interest.

It definitely might be something I'll look into a little bit more.

Actually, thanks so much for having me.

No, no, for sure, for sure.

It's very uh, it's pretty cool.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, And that's the end of another recult reject and until the next one, everybody be well later mhm.