Welcome to Let's Talk Love, a space for real conversations, fresh perspectives, and expert wisdom.

We dive into the joys, the challenges, and the beauty of relationships, learning, and growing in community.

Join us as we expand our relational literacy, becoming better at love together.

This week, Robin sits down with Doctor Stan Tapkin, clinician, researcher, and founder of the PACT Institute.

If you've ever wondered why love sometimes isn't enough to make a relationship work, this conversation is for you.

Doctor Stan shares what it really takes to build a secure, functioning relationship, one that feels safe, collaborative, and deeply connected.

You'll learn how to move through conflict, how to repair when things go wrong, and how designing your relationship on purpose can change everything.

Doctor Stan Tatkin, Rob, I'm so excited to have you back on Let's Talk Love.

I am excited to be back with you and I love talking about love.

So I'm going to hold up your book in each other's care.

I've read your other two books and this is your most recent.

Yes.

And it's about conflicts.

It's a guide to the most common relationship conflicts and how to work through them.

And it's a great resource, Dan.

I'm glad I, I wrote that in a pinch during COVID and this is fun to write and very motivated by what was going on.

I'm still on that track.

And and so my research, I'm very, very strong on this idea of design and understanding how nature works against us in relationship.

So let's, let's start there, Stan, because I think that what you're so good at is reminding us we are, we are human beings having relationship issues, but so much of the issues we're having is because we're just human, right?

Just being human primates is a problem just in and of itself and always had problem throughout our time on the planet.

Yes.

And so can we, can we talk about that?

The name of your book is called In Each Other's Care.

One of the tenants that you teach in your book is the fact that we have to remember that we are here in a partnership to take care of each other just as much as we were want to look at how we are taking care of ourselves as well as taking care of the other person that we're in relationship with.

And I know that sounds just like, well, of course, Robin, but we forget that on a regular basis, right?

Especially when we're in conflict.

It turns into a war zone rather than like you're actually helping people.

Really step back, take a pause, and really remember what this relationship is built for.

Well, you know, as human primates, we do war better than love and it has to do with our threat system are always on a survival instinct and it's indiscriminate.

It doesn't care whether it's a spouse, a parent or a kid.

If we feel threatened, there's autonomic systems that take over and protect our interests only.

And that's, that's the problem with all of us.

We're all too a little bit too pro self if we're under stress.

And then that's what the that's what the problem is.

It's how we do business under stress that can make the difference between something that will last and something that just won't.

That's all human beings, doesn't matter where they are on the planet because this is has to do with our neurobiology.

So can you describe to us, I've used the word so many times about healthy relationship, but you're not saying that in your book.

What you are really helping us understand is what secure functioning, what a secure functioning relationship looks like.

Right.

The word healthy I don't think actually means anything when it comes to this, right?

Healthy food, perhaps healthy lifestyles, so you live longer.

But this is really about what will work between two human beings and what will never work between two human beings.

And that's really what I focus on.

Things that we can work and things that could never work in terms of happiness, longevity and durability.

That's very specific.

Relationships can be anything that two people or more people want, they just have to agree and they have to think it through as a design issue.

Only in couples do people or not do anything like that.

Nothing and any other.

You're right.

It's not deliberate, right?

It's not conscious.

You come together and you think we're in love.

We fell in love, but it's not set up, it's not designed properly.

Well, no, because love gets you in the door, doesn't keep you in the room, right?

Love by in and of itself does nothing.

This is about purpose.

This is about who are we?

Are we, Are we casting each other as equal power, equal authority, generals, executives, leaders, bosses, or something other than that?

Wouldn't it make sense?

If we're making something up which a relationship is?

It's an invention.

If you and I are making something up from scratch, doesn't that start first with who are we going to be?

Are we going to, you know, are we driver and passenger?

What then?

Then who or what do we serve?

Do we serve the relationship?

Do we serve children?

Ourselves, our parents, our career?

That matters can be anything we want, but if we don't agree, it can't work.

That's the only thing you want polyamory.

I want monogamy.

We have a right to have that, we just can't be together because it won't work.

So that's the true meaning of compatibility.

Are we on the same page with why we're doing this?

What's the point?

Where are we going and who are we if we're not?

There's going to be trouble with any union of equals in a voluntary situation where it should be terms and conditions, deal or no deal.

But love is not the factor in love is not enough.

In fact, feelings should not be driving this, this system and on purpose that we agree on you and I decide what is good, what is best, what is right, just you and me, not a therapist, not Oprah, not our parents.

Nobody can be anything we want, but has to be delivered has to be stated.

It cannot be implied because that is where we get in trouble.

You plan for your devils.

Devils we are.

If the stress is at a certain level and too often we don't think about that and that's the human condition.

We do bad things, we're opportunistic and get away with it.

We'll do it.

We're selfish and self-centered.

It's very hard to think of us as a team.

I have to consider myself and you at the same time, if we're to get along right, has to be fair and just.

You have to work together collaboratively and cooperatively.

And if we don't can't, everything and everyone suffers, right?

And so it's not really an option, but people don't think they should have to do it.

And there are reasons for that, good reasons, but it ends badly, right?

You get what you pay for.

So this is a whole different way of thinking.

It is, is a better life to think in terms of personal purpose, personal principles.

What I believe in is right, good or best.

And hopefully you believe the same thing, or I can convince you, persuade you, because we're setting up something that is first and foremost about survival.

That is why mammals that do pair bond, stay together if they do, because of survival.

That's the primary reason.

It's either survival of the newborn or it's survival of the two people who are up against a dangerous world.

Nature is not, not doesn't care about relationships, only cares about continuation of the species and survival.

That's it.

The rest of it, we're on our own and so we better take responsibility for our own happiness in a relationship.

By design, everything happens by design.

If you're doing it naturally, good luck.

All of those conflicts that you've got in your book, it's like actually most of the time it's not about the dishes.

It's not about.

Yes, there is an issue right here, but the setup isn't done properly to begin with to even handle a conflict.

With two things that will take a voluntary adult primary attachment system and that is lack of design or no design.

And, and then it's the Wild West.

I'm, I'm, I'm operating under what I believe the relationship should be and you are operating what you think it should be.

What could go wrong with that?

We have totally different ideas about that from mythology, from books, from movies, from our parents, from our culture, and it's all different.

And if we aren't seeing it the same way, then we'll accuse each other.

How come you don't know that?

Everyone knows that?

No, everyone doesn't.

Are you a different animal than I am?

But I think your family when we get married and we're not, we're strangers, right?

And so this is a very common sense thing that you would never start a band or join a a dance troupe or be in the Olympics without knowing that you're part of a team.

If that is what you're doing and that you serve the goal.

The the purpose is to do the best we can.

And what is what's the vision?

We win anything that disrupts that common goal and purpose will be a problem, right?

Because that person isn't on board with it.

Now we're only dealing with two people.

They have to get each other on board with these big ticket items of how they're going to do business.

So in my research, we found that it's it's never the topic.

The topic is a stressor.

What repeats is the manner in which we will interact with one or both of us is under stress, period.

That that is where we are not good, right?

People say, oh, well, we're good.

We're very good.

And it's kind of like, yeah, and the sky is blue.

That doesn't count.

What counts is when things go bad, how good are you?

How good are you at maintaining an alliance of collaboration and cooperation?

Or do the wheels come off?

And the answer for most the wheels come off because of who we are.

How do you describe that to couples when you say you're a team?

Well it is a team sport unless unless the two people decide otherwise.

But they have to be clear minded and actually think about downstream effects with any design right?

What could go wrong with this one?

So it can be secure functioning?

It is 2 or more people designing anything they want.

There's no should or shouldn't.

They just have to be honest about what they truly want.

Because if each individual doesn't buy into that principle, that idea, that limitation, selfishly for themselves, they won't do it when it's the hardest thing to do.

Therefore, purpose center principles protect us from our feelings and each other from doing harm because we've decided in advance how we're going to do this, even though it will likely be the hardest thing to do otherwise.

It doesn't count, right?

We're already doing the easiest, right?

We already do under stress what we feel like.

And that's never been safe among human beings.

So this is this is not rocket science.

This has been social contract theory, but we've known about it since civilization, right?

Fairness and justice theory.

This is squarely in that area.

And you build these structures to prevent bad feelings from staying rising and repeating and to allow earned love, earned respect, earned admiration to actually emerge, which is absolutely more stable than the kind of love that we kind of feel occasionally or comes across, right?

Which and then goes away, right.

This is, this is hard to replace because we're doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do.

And we plan for that.

That's a good life.

Exactly.

So secure couples get things done compared to insecure functioning partners.

They work out big life problems and little daily frustrations quickly and keep interpersonal stress to an absolute minimum.

This I thought was great in the In the end of the book, you say, you know, the reality is, is that the world is is in in chaos.

A lot of the time.

There's just stuff going on right outside of our homes.

You know, at any given time, you know, you look at the political landscape, you you could look at so many things, right?

I mean, you wrote this during the pandemic, but really our goal and if we were just keep coming back to this, our relationships at home with our partner.

If you're with one, this is this is meant to be constructed to be the safest, your safe haven.

And it's like if you're at war with your partner because it's.

Designed that way, it's only happy because it's designed to be happy.

That's my point.

But yeah.

Yes, but Stan, this is what you're seeing.

And I know this right to be true.

We're talking about relationships all day long.

It's just not the case with a lot of people.

You just, this is such a huge important thing that people are forgetting.

It's like really, I know we've got an issue over the dishes.

We've got an issue over what's going on with the parenting of the kids.

But at the end of the day, it's like your, your union and the safety within your relationship is, is what you need to be focusing on, right?

And how to keep that?

Secure function is basically growing up, being an adult and taking responsibility for your life and your future and, and, and also, you know, leadership taking, right?

Leadership, both of you, right?

So we decide just because we're designing this, we decide hierarchically how we're going to make decisions.

Let's say we're going to make decisions first and foremost, what's at the top that has to be protected at all costs in order for everything else to work and be right.

So let's say it's our relationship, the thing that we created.

It's greater than us.

It's we imagined it.

And that is the altar to which we pray and we decide that the relationship is going to be at the top.

Why?

Because we decide we're in charge of everyone and everything, and everyone and everything is affected by if we're unhappy, if we don't get along right, Kids, primarily.

Happy parents, happy kids.

We know this, and so our health will deteriorate under interpersonal stress.

It's a killer, right?

That kind of, you know, chronic interpersonal stress ticks away your life and you'll die sooner and you'll be sicker, right?

No better than if you were just alone.

So this is predicated on deciding what is going to be the most important thing.

And then everything below that has to agree if we are going to share power and authority and responsibility, that doesn't mean we don't delegate.

That means that the buck stops with both of us because we're running everyone and everything.

And that's a responsibility.

So we have a duty to maintain the relationship first.

Like putting your oxygen masks on because your children are not going to get hypoxic as quickly as you.

If you're dead, they're dead.

So you've got to take care of that union, right?

And one of the ways we guarantee happiness is by deciding that that outcomes have to be win, win, that neither of us can lose in a gambit or there will be trouble, right?

If I win at your cost, there's no way I won't pay for that.

Impossible.

How do you help couples understand the win wins done with a conflict for example?

If we decide to do this, we're confined to work things out together collaboratively until we get to a, to a moment or place where we're both good for now because conditions change, right?

And that's the best we can do.

But it is doable, always doable.

If you're confined to that idea, it has to be good for you and me or we're not done yet because we can't move unless we want to look backwards and litigate what was unfair.

And that's what people are doing all the time.

They're accruing too much memory of threat, unfairness, injustice and insensitivity without any repair.

And that accrues in our survival area or threat area, and it becomes bigger and bigger to where we start to biologically really react to each other as a threatening character.

That's where it goes.

And so if you don't want that, fix things right away with each other, repair things right away.

And if it repeats, put something in place together that prevents either of you from doing that stupid thing again.

That's how it should be, must be.

And so if you and I are are confined to good for me, good for you, that means we're going to have to be clever.

We're going to have to find ways to make things right because chances of wanting the same thing at the same time or slim to kneel.

So how have we done that?

Targeting, negotiating, making it good for the other person at this juncture, right?

Otherwise, we're going to look back again and again for things that we are resentful for because nobody cleaned it up.

You're carrying your resentments, you're carrying your unfairness, all bitterness, all of that into like the next conflict, which is so common.

The way I think of this, Dan, is you're not keeping your relationship clean.

That's what I say to my partner, is there if they want to keep our relationship clear clean, you know, so that it's like we're good, you know, like he'll ask me, are you good?

Are we good?

Is there stuff, you know, is there anything?

And I'm like, and I, I think I really appreciate that he's asking me that question because I'm like, is there anything that's bothering me about us or like, no, I'm good, you know?

That's smart because because if one of you isn't, and neither of you are going to be good, it's impossible.

It's impossible for you not to affect each other in real time.

Anything you do will affect the other person, which will affect you, good or bad.

That's the way it actually is.

Whether you like that or not, it is that way.

You can't decouple those two things unless you break up, and even then it takes a while to realize that that person is no longer your primary.

Can take up to a year, so this is.

Can you please go into?

That so there are certain facts about our nature that people don't understand or don't even know about.

That in each other, each other's care came up out of psychobiology, came out of knowing that our particular species kind of primate operates under something called interactive regulation.

This is the autonomic nervous system.

I know it's nerdy, but we do better up close interacting and regulating each other's state then we do regulating our own.

That's because I can see at close distance what's going on in you before you know it, and you can see what's going on in me before I know it.

That gives us an advantage that says that the way we are getting along depends on our ability to respond quickly to what we see in the other person's face or vocal tone or whatever that is going on.

When we court and we get the gig, of course we were good at that, but are we good under distress, which wasn't tested?

And that is where the rubber meets the road.

We cannot together as a regulatory team attenuate distress experiences or stress experiences, and so they amplify, which makes us more threatening to each other.

There are a lot of ways to explain this that are even more detailed, but this is part of this.

We can't do anything about that.

That is what's going to happen if we don't understand the forces that are working here that we can't control.

Nobody can.

And so all we can do with natural forces that are going to compel us to do things no matter what, is to know about them, predict them, plan for them, practice for them, or hack them or override them with a principle.

We want something better than to punch the other person right now.

We are looking for something greater than feeling better at the cost of doing better.

That will all interfere with these impulses and triggers and subcortical processes that are using pattern recognition and do not have an executive function.

Therefore, if it's threatening, I see it, smell it.

I should at first.

That's how we are.

That's exactly how we're going to happen every time if our blood pressure and heart rate rise to a certain level.

So this, this is actually there and it's going to take over unless we understand it.

Otherwise we're a victim to it.

We're a victim anyway, but we don't have to be to all of it.

And that's one of the things you teach in your book, right?

The issue is not with your partner.

The issue is how you're going, how you're going to interact with that issue.

The issue OK is our interaction under stress.

That's what is accruing threat.

That is what is the problem that we feeds it is.

Yes.

The topic is just the stressor.

The topic is the stressor and the issue is with how we are reacting to the issue and so the first thing we wanted.

We don't know are threatening, but they are.

Right.

So the first thing we want to do is bring relief to our partner, right?

And disarm them if they're under threat, because that's the smartest, wisest thing to do for yourself.

Annoyance and irritation with each other doesn't go away.

We are actually annoying.

We are difficult to live with.

We are difficult to live with.

We there is no human being on the planet that is low maintenance up close over time.

We are all a pain in the ass that doesn't go away.

What we're taking out of the out of the equation is anything that either of us experience or react to as threat and that is small T threat.

That is like rolling my eyes at you.

That's threat talking in a way that's dismissive.

That's threat.

Blowing you off.

That's threat.

Walking out of the room in the middle of a conversation.

Threat.

These are more than just annoying.

They actually tap into our survival instinct and are read as deeply unfriendly and threatening.

And most people do not understand this.

They blame the other person for the reaction, but if we're in each other's care and I'm your handler, I'm at fault if you react badly to what I say or do.

I should have known better.

I should have known the animal I am with.

And so we do screwy things out in the world because we always think it's the other person that's our go to.

I'm unhappy and I don't know why.

Oh yeah, I just remembered it's you.

Other things we do, we focus on our differences, and that's our xenophobia, right.

You're too familiar to ignore, too different to live with.

That's from Yuval Harari's book Sapien and it's true.

And So what is the higher level of social emotional intelligence and moral function?

It is to always look to where we do agree and where we are the same.

Anybody who's a consensus maker knows that or the average human being doesn't do that and doesn't care to do it.

And so that's where we fight because by nature we tend to be selfish and self-centered and pro self only.

That is our nature, unless we feel good and then we'll be poor relationship.

So Stan, how do you, how do you guide people to start with relief rather than the issue?

Well, that's a really, I think that's a great one.

If if you feel hurt by me, what does the average person do?

Well, I don't think you should feel that way, or I didn't do that, or you're wrong, or I disagree, or I did that because you did this, or I wouldn't have done that had you not done this.

You misunderstand.

That wasn't my intention.

I never want to hurt you.

Oh, these are all things that are vaporware, if not more aggravating and more threatening to a person who's looking for relief from acknowledgement that you hurt me.

You misunderstood me, right?

Otherwise, we hold onto it, everyone.

And so if I want to do business with you, I don't have an audience until I fall on my sword and say, you know what?

I don't remember saying that, but it sounds like me, and I'm so sorry.

That was wrong.

I shouldn't have done it, full stop.

Nothing else.

That's a discipline and that's not what we usually want to do.

We want to say more than that.

That is, that is putting the relationship ahead of being right, which if you want to hold on to your relationships, that's the only way to do it.

Otherwise you're going to lose them.

That's how, boy, we invented a man's apologies in the 1st place to not go to war, not get sued, not have our children leave a house, right?

And it's rarely used properly.

This is a discipline.

It's asking us to adult like in the highest way because really like, are you acting like a teenager when you're like, I didn't do that and you did that.

And like so many of the fights that you show in your book, you just hear how people fight and it's just same old, same old.

But so much of it is just just a right back at you.

It's just a defense.

And that is not going to solve anything.

Right.

Well, it can only go in One Direction.

It's a dead end and it ends badly.

So, but that we don't care where, where, when we're in the throes.

Because what actually happens is that I do something that you experience as threatening.

I don't know, I do it and then you respond defensively in a way that I find threatening and then we're in a loop and this will repeat and we and people will probably familiar with this.

You kind of can't get out of that.

Once you're in it, it seems impossible.

It's going to play out.

There are ways to do it, but you'd have to know and prepare and practice like going live for a performance.

It's exactly like that because once you go live, you're going to be automatic and when you're automatic you're going to be pro self only and that's going to get you into trouble with another person.

So these are simple things once you understand them, they're just hard to do because of our nature.

Can you talk to us about how people make this mistake so often as they are treating their partner as family?

Yeah, we mistake partnership for family.

Family, it has no formalities of of proper behavior because it's an asymmetric relationship right and the kids are never in power by definition, right.

The gods are the giants are sorry for when you're a baby right.

Those rules of interaction start in infancy and having studied babies you can see it right there all begins there.

And so it's not again not rocket science, it's adaptation.

What happens is that we're memory animals.

Most of the time we're operating by memory, cheap memory, procedural memory.

And that's based on the biological law of energy conservation.

It's throughout living things.

It's to restore and to to save energy resources for things we must have energy for like survival or picking a place to, you know, to put your tent or to gather your food, right.

Or if novelty, where you're learning something new, what happens is that because of energy conservation, you and I will start to automate each other soon after the endogenous drugs wear off.

And those drugs are making us superhuman and cling to each other so that we procreate, right?

That's nature.

But once that dies down, we think we know each other, which is simpler and easier.

Now we can direct our attention toward other things, but what also happens, it lulls us into thinking we know this person.

We store the face for weeks and months without ever looking at it.

That's how lazy we are.

We go to where we agree.

That's how lazy we are.

Low hanging fruit.

We blame the other person.

Again, low hanging fruit.

All of this is easy because anything else would be energy expanding and we don't do that, all of us.

So we get lulled into thinking the other person is like family because it reminds us of family.

It's just very similar to our earliest attachment relationships.

That's why these relationships are the hardest romantic relationships.

People say, oh, my friends are not like this at all.

They don't even do any of those things that you do.

And my response has always been, marry one of them and see what happens because this is apples and oranges.

This is a whole different thing.

Hardest thing, harder than kids, harder than, of course, pets.

So that's because of memory.

And that's because it reminds us of an existential attachment formation in our earliest attachment bond with our caregiver.

Because we are not born to survive on our own.

We can't, unlike other mammals, and so we are fully dependent on this one person for our life.

That's an existential matter.

And guess what?

That's another reason why breaking up is hard to do, because the attachment system is a is the I can't quit you biology.

It's nature's glue.

It's intended to keep us grouped together since we're not lone wolves, but it will keep us together even when we shouldn't be, right?

Right.

We confuse it for love.

No, it's actually an existential threat, and there's always that piece of it that we'll never be reasoned with for breaking up with someone.

That's why breaking up is so hard to do.

So anyway, I digress, but all of this, again, is understanding how we roll as a species.

All of us, no exception.

Doesn't matter.

Age doesn't matter.

Color, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet.

If you're a human primate, you're an asshole somewhere.

What you're saying when it comes down to the reasons we don't want to look at our partner as family is because we drop our formalities, We drop our formalities.

I no longer need to court you.

I no longer.

I got the gig so I can turn my attention elsewhere.

I'm not.

I don't have to pay attention.

I don't have to be present.

I don't have to accord you the normal formalities I would have if I just met you and I wanted to get the gig.

No, I just walk in instead of saying, do you have any time?

Is it OK if I interrupt you?

I just walk in.

I call you from another room.

I do all sorts of things because I think I can.

And of course you do too.

But it's screening and it's rude and it's it's not becoming of strangers always getting to know each other because the idea we're family is absolutely false.

Our children, our blood relatives, partners, unless they're marrying your sister, you're not, you're strangers.

And if you keep that in mind, then you look for the novelty and the familiar.

You do what an adult would do instead of chasing novelty dopamine, you find it where you are and appreciate the complexity of that relationship, the growing complexity.

And you remain curious and you are able to be present and attentive during certain times of each day, which by the way, is for you.

Because today we're hardly here with our phones, with our screens, with our busyness, with the amount of information that were thrown at us.

We are not here most of the time.

We're somewhere else in the future, in the past somewhere, but we're not actually here.

So that's a problem for happiness, and it's a problem also for loneliness, because people will eventually get existentially lonely.

Because real intimacy actually is presence and attention and curiosity.

It isn't sex, I can tell you that.

That's a fact.

In terms of even the neuroendocrine system, oxytocin we know now is the single most predictor of a happy marriage.

The blood levels of oxytocin and vasopressin.

Now women will always have 7 times more because they give birth.

But how do you, how do you get an oxytocin rush?

I look in your eyes just for a moment, just that, and I actually see you and I walk.

We both got a healthy dose, dose of oxytocin.

I asked you, how are you oxytocin?

I asked you, we're in bed.

What was your first kiss?

Pillow talk?

Oxytocin.

I look at you during the day or I say to you when I'm excited, God, I love you.

Oxytocin.

Both of us, we have the ability to amplify these things Other mammals don't.

So we can get a a sevenfold hit of these groovy drugs.

Dopamine, presynaptic dopamine and oxytocin, Vasopressin.

No other can, but we do it in each other's eyes.

We do it by saying things that the other person feels seen and heard.

That is how you rock.

That is how you recreate falling in love again and again.

You're hacking the neural endocrine system by doing things that excite the two of you in a way that it did at the very beginning.

Because that kind of love is actually a part of an addiction.

It's not a feeling.

It is actually tapping into the addiction circuit, so you have.

To get presence, presence, attention and curiosity.

Yes, yeah, I know.

These are the very, very important missing ingredients in a lot of long term relationships.

Yes, because nature's direct.

What nature's directing you not to do any of those things?

None of them.

You're going to fall asleep every day.

You're going to be automatic.

You're going to go through life without any, go through a day with critical thinking maybe of 10% of the time.

The rest of it, your automaton, you're being directed by subcortical processes that already know how to do things.

Therefore, you're not really here and there is no excitement.

You'll chase it, but it won't be where you actually are, where you live and the person who's going to save your life for have someday.

And and this is just the nature of nature and of our brain.

It is what it is.

Know it or suffer.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

Know it or pay the price like everybody will.

I would prefer knowledge as power that we know how these things work and we cannot debate them.

They're not debatable.

They will win every time unless we know how to work with those natural things that are pushing us to be indifferent, pushing us to not pay attention, pushing us to look elsewhere, pushing us to to protect ourselves when we're actually this is our ally that we're attacking.

Because once they, once the systems take over, they're in charge.

And they're in charge most of the time anyway.

We don't realize it.

When you've got clients in your office and you're working with them one-on-one and they're coming in with their laundry list of things that are that are going on in their relationship, where do you start?

It's just with all of this, it's just that you're sitting down with somebody and saying, OK, tell me like, what is the, what is, what is the vision, the purpose of your relationship?

Where do you actually invite people to start that are not in the best place but their relationship?

It's a great question.

This is why I have people read my book now or I've now drawn up with with our Toronto group, study group, just a single page.

This is how I do therapy.

This is how I do this work because buyer beware.

So this is not the typical therapy.

We're not depending on why you do things while you're burning the house down.

This is more like the real world.

It's what you're doing that cannot continue because it won't work.

It'll it'll cause the relationship, the union to crash and burn.

That's very different.

And so, so this is more tactical in the real world working even though, and though the science behind this is always there and the developmental research and developmental theory is always there on the front end.

This is really about setting up shop properly, understanding that your your person is going to be annoying, that disappointment happens, but it's in our heads.

It doesn't really exist outside, right?

And that you're going to have to approach this as you would a serious business or a serious team.

That is first is safety and security, and then you adorn the relationship with things you never would be able to do because two people are always better than one, but only if they work together.

Otherwise, they're worse, right?

It is what it is.

So you said the the very first thing, Yep.

Is like, OK, our first plan of action is setting this up for safety and security is the safety and security of our bond.

Is that solid?

And then we could talk about, like you said, the adornments, all the, all the extras to make it, you know, more like beautiful and pretty.

And I I understand what you're saying, Stan.

The the lack of safety and security will tack any joy or any love or anything good because because it's threat.

So that has to be locked down, doesn't have to be locked down alone.

You can do other things at the same time, but that has to be locked down by both people.

By design.

We're keeping each other from doing anything that would harm the union or protecting the union at all costs.

That includes both of us.

Can you give us an example of where you're seeing like couples come in and they're like, OK, they don't have safety and security lockdown?

And is that for?

Is that the case for a lot of people?

I would say that's pretty much everybody because who's doing that on who is doing this actually.

So This is why I like prevention.

This is really all prevention.

It is.

It's not about looking back and litigating the past that you'll never get out of.

There's no way to settle that.

You're just going to fight again and do it and repeat.

So all you can do with the past is bring it forward like you would.

And in a hospital where I work, you do postmortems.

Postmortems, you're figuring out how to not kill the patient next time.

You're not pointing out who did it right.

It's a problem you're, you're solving, not a person.

So partners are solving problems, not each other.

That's war.

They're they're coming up with decisions as a third thing, but they're working out to both of their wants and need, period.

That can it can, it has to be that way or there's trouble, period.

That's with all people and so you have to understand the rules of of human nature or pay the price.

It's not because I'd say this do it and find out for yourself or don't do it and find out.

So is is taking seriously that we live in a dangerous world.

There are no social contracts between you and the world that will keep you safe, that will keep your secrets, that will put you first, that will have your back.

Now that's temporary, depending on where the wind blows.

The only people that you can count on are people that you make these social contracts with.

They have the same things to gain as you and the same things to lose.

They're equal stakeholders in the same thing.

So that's why we stick to those agreements, right?

Because nobody else would ever do that.

That's your safety and security.

Because we're lulled into thinking that we're safe.

We are never safe, ever, whatever.

That's part of our denial system.

Energy conservation, again, necessary for us to get through our day.

Otherwise we'd never get out of our room.

If we've realized that anything can happen now as it does.

We don't know if our partner is going to be alive in the next two hours and things happen to people.

It's in the news all the time, but yet we never think about that and we take them for granted and then we regret.

That's because of energy conservation.

It's always there and it's always lulling us to sleep.

And that's, that's a good thing and a dangerous thing, right?

And so, so this is really taking seriously that that being experts on each other and having each other's backs is not a luxury.

It isn't.

If you think it's a luxury, you're in some fantasy and you're going to be, you're going to be hurt for sure.

Like you said, this is like you're setting up a partnership.

You have to have shared principles of governance as PGS.

Otherwise, we'll fight.

So we govern each other.

We have the right to tell each other what to do in this instance, because we gave each other permission to do that.

It serves a purpose that is good for both of us.

I just have to remember why I chose it when I don't want to do it because I have to do it right.

So.

Can you give?

Us an example of that stand between you and Tracy, for example, like a principle of of governance that you both agreed to even under stress.

Let's take the big one.

Neither of us can lose if one of us forgets, which is natural, and the other one is permitted to remind the other person with the absolute expectation that one reminded.

The other person must cooperate now, without pushback, without argument.

That's governance.

That's by agreement and permission to enforce.

In the greater world, you don't need permission to have your cop in force, right?

It's baked into the social contract of the civil as the society, right?

You follow the rules in a couple of equals.

You have to do it by agreement 1st and then permission to enforce.

Or who died and made you my boss.

That's how it works in an equal symmetrical adult relationship, right?

And so that takes preparation.

That's takes thinking ahead, so consider this for your audience.

This was brought up.

This was developed during a couples retreat as a way to give them something to do on an outing.

Think pepper as the word pepper, but it's the P Predict what could go wrong.

Before you go into that situation, plan on what you're going to do to protect each other from fighting based on what you have done right.

All you have to do is plan and what you're going to do and not do.

How are you going to manage that?

Prepare just before you go into that situation so you don't forget and then revise the plan or repair with the other person as necessary.

If you did that every time before going on a trip or dealing with the kids or anything that is going to be stressful for either of you, everything changes because everything is predictable.

People who just aren't doing it and they're walking into the same situation live and they're going to do the same stupid things and fight.

So we predict and prepare and plan and prepare for everything we do.

And we, by design, always have a good time because that is the vision.

The vision is, by the end of this trip, we had a great time.

Other people's mileage may vary, but we were good.

Yeah, we're a good team on now what will get in that way and one by one, we take everything.

We've no stun on turn because there are things that we couldn't predict that could happen.

We're going to include those two because by design we're going to make it the way we want it to be.

And we can do that without anyone knowing and without harming anybody, including getting away from somebody that we that is toxic.

We can do that if we're prepared ahead of time.

So it's power that is a very powerful thing for a team to do, but you have to look ahead, otherwise you get what you pay for.

And so think this is all prevention.

It's all prevention because you can't, you can't do anything about the past.

You can just prevent the past from recurring that and that's all you can do.

Do it because that's great.

And that's why you said you've got a shared principles or rules of governance.

I, I, I, I love it.

So you've, you've written, I've written down a few that you have from the book.

You you have each other's backs at all times without an exception.

In public or private.

Yep.

You repair, correct, fix, or make amends without explanation, condition, excuse, or defense when the other experiences hurt, misunderstanding, or any other injury.

And we do so within one hour without exception.

Without exception, No I can't.

Why?

Because it's a memory problem.

See all of this has.

Again, this is all science driven.

It's not about politeness.

The reason you want to fix things fast is because otherwise it goes into long term memory because of adrenal products that you're pumping.

So the reason I fix it right away by saying, oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

I mean, didn't mean to do that.

It's not as great as I did it.

And I'm sorry, that was stupid because I don't want you to remember this and have it come back to litigate, which is going to be the forever thing.

And so if you want something to go into long term memory, hurt somebody, do nothing.

Good luck.

You let things go when they're good, right?

You want to remember those things, but we're biased.

We have a negativity bias in the brain for survival.

That's why the brain isn't Disneyland.

That's why being alone will drive us crazy because our brain is filled with danger and filled with thoughts that have to do with anxiety.

Therefore, life is outside.

And so this is this is about just understanding that your mind is fooling you, misleading you.

Most of the time it's doing its job.

It's just not necessary to do that job in that moment.

That's because it's always working and it's always aware of what could hurt you and and preparing and it's in your mind, but it's a false flag alarm most of the time.

So again, understanding how our mind works and doesn't understanding that that our communication is terrible on even the best day, we're terrible at it.

We think we are good and we're not.

We think memory is accurate, is unreliable, completely and totally.

We have the memory of about 15 minutes and that's it.

After that, it's anything goes.

And so if you're fighting about something last night, don't because you're going to argue about memory and you're both wrong.

Our perception is like a funhouse mirror.

It is.

It is thought is changing every time our state changes what we smell, taste, hear, feel, see.

You think you're saying this, but your state of mind and memory is changing what you perceive accordingly.

Therefore, you cannot say that my perception is absolutely correct.

However, if you perceive I harmed you, I did, and I do not dispute it because I cannot talk you out of your perception.

If I even tried, I'd become less friendly because it shows I don't care.

So what do we?

Right, that that is such a good point, Stan.

It's like it doesn't matter, right?

If I perceive that you hurt me, then your job is to be like I I'm I I'm sorry.

I didn't, I, I did.

OK.

Well, I'm, I'm very sorry that that gay.

You have to win.

About you want to just.

That's what you need to.

That's what you need to attend to right away.

Again, very hard to do because what are we wanting where you hurt me or I didn't do that.

So, you know, this is where I said we're assholes.

We're simply protecting our interests and that's what we're going to do every time if we're under threat.

So we have to be smarter than the average primate.

We have to know this is the only thing that will work.

If you want to keep your relationship, if you're out in the real world, it doesn't matter.

You don't want to get sued, but you're not interested in keeping that relationship.

But if you are, you better follow these rules.

Otherwise, watch out, right?

These are the rules of how we how we experience fairness and justice.

And so, yeah, if you did hurt me, I table that for a later.

I don't combine that because otherwise there'll be no, there would be no relief and there will be no calming that down.

It just won't happen right.

Again, hard to do because of our who we are and what we do when we're under stress, we're not well.

I'll say, Stan, that this is, this is, This is why this is such important work, because we want to, I, I want to, I want to create a beautiful partnership.

I want a lasting partnership.

I want to be like the best relationship of my life, you know, And that takes a lot of work.

It takes a lot of conscious and like you say over and over again in the book, it's like, these are not the easiest things to do.

This is the harder path to take, but the rewards are huge.

They're huge.

They're better than we normally do, which is which is nothing.

And that's why it's like only so good or just not good because you get what you pay for.

This is effortful because it yields things that are more than we'll ever get from anyone or every this these are expensive propositions.

We have an agreement.

One of us is in distress, the other one drops what they're doing and takes care of it for with the other person.

Because unless you're in surgery, right, that's annoying.

That's that, that's an inconvenience.

But boy is it a great service when it's you that's in distress.

So it goes in both directions.

It's effortful, but the rewards we believe are worth the effort.

And so we get more always.

All you have to do is design it.

All you have to do is invent it.

All you have to do is believe that this is the best or right or good thing.

There's a process for that.

And then then establish that it's enforceable.

It will happen.

Yeah, proof's in the pudding, right?

I mean, you, you've got a you and Tracy, I have a very deliberate, very conscious, you're practicing what you preach.

And would you, would you say that you've got a like a beautiful strong relationship because of it?

I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the world without her, not because I'm codependent, but because we've been to some terrible places.

But as long as we are together, it's always good because home is our relationship wherever we go.

We built it that way and continue to shape it that way because we're human, right?

We do stupid things and say stupid things and act in ways that.

At home is your relationship.

It's each other off.

We've eliminated need needs for fighting because we systematically came up with policies that would settle that ahead of time or just after making a mistake.

And so that's doable as a team and but you got to do it otherwise, again, you know, it is what it is what it is.

And like you said, Stan, you have to practice.

So we're not going to get good at anything in life unless we practice.

And it's not easy, right?

It's like, it's like, I remember when I was learning to play the piano.

I mean, come on.

Right.

It's just like exhausting.

But you're like, you have to practice to get better.

And it's the same thing with that love.

You think it's just going to fall in your lap.

That's not how good relationships are formed or or created.

It's very, it's a lot of work and a lot of practice.

Just a warning for people on just because you're overriding an impulse and a reflex with a principle you bought into doesn't mean that reflex or impulse goes away.

It doesn't.

For instance, we, we have everything's out in the open, no log phones, nothing.

She can go into my phone whenever she wants my wallet and then she does.

I can go into her wallet, her purse, whatever in the her phone anytime I want.

Not because we're suspicious, but because we can.

That's how we want to play it.

Otherwise it's too much work.

So when she goes into my wallet or my phone, there's a part of me that you know, it startles and goes, wait, that's not right, That's mine.

It's overwritten immediately with, but I want that.

I chose that.

That was my choice.

So again, this is not about dismissing the fact that these are things that we naturally will bristle at.

We don't have to like it, but you've already decided it's best.

So I can't do what we do.

Sometimes that's play because that may not be appropriate for this.

But you know, we can tell each other what to do.

The other person has to do it immediately, but we can register our discontent playfully.

Just imagine what you will, and it's play.

It's fun because we're doing the hardest thing, even though we don't want to do it because we believe that is going to pay.

That's not always fun.

That's worth it, like you said.

Expected to be fun.

Expected to be right and best.

Well, thank you so much, Doctor Santek, and I love talking to you and I love learning from you and I.

You're a great example and an excellent teacher so.

Thank you, I'm messy like everyone else.

We're all human.

I just, I appreciate you, so thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Be well, as always wonderful.

Thank you so much for listening.

This podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme.

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