Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week.

Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate, and communicate.

We tackle the big questions, not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships.

I'm your host, Robin Ducharne.

Now let's talk love.

Welcome, everyone, to this episode of Let's Talk LOVE.

I'm so happy to have our guest, Paul Branson and Paul.

See Paul, you have a you have a three, three name.

You have three names in your name, Paul Carrick Branson.

So is this 2 last names?

Is this your middle name?

Where is Carrick from?

Is that Tony?

Is that that is your middle name that.

That that is my middle name is There's a long story.

Yeah, there's a long story for the middle name, but yes, but.

I like, I really like the fact that you have your middle name in your name because I mean, I could say Robin Helen Ducharme, but I don't, I say Robin Ducharme.

Maybe I should say Robin Helen Ducharme.

It would honor my grandma who I'm named after.

Anyways, that's a that's a good one.

I like it.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So Paul, I, we're, I'm so happy to have you on the show today.

I really have been following you for since 2012 and I love your work and I just think you're just such a genuine, A genuine person with, with great integrity from what I from what I know about you and you're just so incredibly smart and also just so relatable.

So I'm so excited for this conversation.

That's the best, that's the best way.

Well, I will take it.

I can can I say I'm I'm I'm honored by the by the 2012.

That's interesting.

That's that's over 10 years ago.

So that that's some time I'll.

Tell you more about it in our conversation.

OK.

So, so Paul, you today we're going to be talking obviously about love and relationships and about your book, which I so enjoyed.

And I learned, I mean, every time I read a relationship book, I learn.

I learned so much and I learned a lot from your book.

And I am a former matchmaker and love coach.

And so you know a lot of things you were talking about in your book.

I, I know, and I resonate with, but obviously there's always something new to learn.

And when I was researching you and I, I know that, you know, your former life, you worked as an investment banker, right?

Is that true?

And then you switched, you switched careers.

You did, you did A18360, whatever you call it, and went into the love business.

And I really like the story of how in the process of, you know, switching careers and if I'm wrong, you please correct me.

But you and your wife Jill hosted singles dinners like you would invite your friends that were single together and play games and interact and, and, and matchmake in a way.

So can you just tell us a little bit about that and how, how you got into becoming entering the love business?

And it was kind of almost like a natural it, it felt, it seemed to me like from learning about you that seemed quite, quite natural transition.

It was, it, it, it felt that well, in hindsight, it definitely was.

And it was, it was, you know, I, I believe that we're always, you know, in the place that we're meant to be.

And even though that place they feel uncomfortable, we have to stop, take a moment, take a breath and understand why are we there.

And, and the key way to do that is to think about the lesson, right?

What are you learning in the moment?

And was interesting for me is that, as you mentioned, Robin is I was my first part of my career was in finance and I hated it.

I would think to myself, why am I here?

What's the point of all of this?

But it led me to understand humanity and why we do the things that we do.

And it actually gave me skills.

And those skills allowed me to start a summer camp program or, or a program, a tutoring program.

And then it was through that tutoring program that allowed me to become a matchmaker, right?

And so you could see that I, I would not have become a matchmaker if it wasn't for the summer camp, if it wasn't for the tutoring, if it wasn't for, for, for the finance career.

But, but specifically to your question I had.

So this is the summer of Oh my gosh, what is it?

This is 2008.

Two.

No, no, 2005.

This is the summer of 2005, roughly.

My wife and I had a summer camp where it was a tutoring program, but we and we had it up and down the East Coast of the United States, but in particular, this one was running in Washington, DC.

It was focused on children who were coming from low income households and, you know, needed help with math and science and, and, and English.

And in the camp when you registered, we would ask you a series of questions.

One question that turned out to be the, you know, the $1,000,000 question was, well, how many parents live in your household, Robin?

Right.

And what you would see is that you'd see these child after child after child would say, well, I only have, you know, one parent or I only live with grandma or I only live with auntie.

And so there was a succession of I don't live with both of my parents and there was very little male representation in the household.

Yes.

And and I thought that was that was really interesting.

And so I would talk about that often at the camp and the other and the counselors at the camp would say, well, Paul, why don't you just become hitch?

You could just be Hitch and hook up all the moms.

And dads, right?

Oh, I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that would be it.

And so that was seated the idea for my wife and I to start hosting these parties that we call the Brown Sugar Party now.

Now, Robin, I have to ask you, do you know why?

What do you know why we call it the Brown Sugar Party?

And these were parties at our house where we would invite singles over.

Do you have any guess, Any guess?

The Brown.

Sugar Party.

Well, the guess would be that you're inviting people, black people to your parties.

Are you?

Is it, does it does it have to do with your heritage being like you're Jamaican And I know in in DC there's a lot of representation.

So is that Is that something?

So This is why I asked, because this is this is the answer that everyone gives me.

But that wasn't it.

It was because we were drinking alcohol.

It had, it was brown sugar.

It was like like brown Hennessy.

Yeah, yeah.

Rob.

Yeah.

OK.

Any, any kind of brown sugar alcohol because.

And that's, that's what went along with the with the party.

But it's interesting because whenever I say brown sugar, everyone says it was a black thing.

And I was like, no, it was just everything.

Oh, I know why.

So yes, so we, we, we were drinking because a lot of it had to do with questions and answers.

And if you didn't get the quest or answer right, you had to, you know you, you had to.

Drink to drink.

But it did drink.

It was a drinking game party too.

It was a drinking game party.

It was, it was a good, good, But the point though, of the party was to allow for an environment for people to interact and meet outside of a club or outside of work.

Because, you know, circa 2005, 2006, the top way that we were meeting significant others wasn't yet online.

It was through work.

The church was still up there, friends and family was, was, was still up there.

Restaurants, clubs, bars, you know, we're still up there.

But people were clamoring for new ways to connect.

And that was an environment that we thought where it was a bit prearranged because we only invited, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was all, it was heterosexual.

So it was 7 men, seven women.

But we invited you.

So there was a little bit of strategy, you know, to.

Yes, I really, I just so love that.

That's what happened.

That's how it started.

Well, and you were, it's such a gift that you and your wife were giving the community and, and giving that and actually I'm giving that opportunity to meet other singles and you were setting it up.

I mean, I just think it's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, it was.

It was.

So it was definitely.

Yeah, it sounds like it.

I would I would love to be in the brown sugar party.

That sounds great.

So today I really want to dive into your book.

And also there's community questions that we that we are always asked of our experts.

And so I wanted to integrate those as well.

Your book, really your book is called it's complicated, but it doesn't have to be a modern day guide to finding a keeping love.

And it really the finding is the big is a big piece that keeping is a big piece.

So you know that is you know, we'll go through.

I think, you know, really you talk about the tenants of what it really is to attract, to bring in somebody that is a good match for you.

And it's not just about your type, type hype and all that stuff we're going to go through.

But then really it's like once you meet that person, is it OK?

Is this for real?

Do you really want to get into a marriage or a long term partnership?

Are you ready for that and what it entails?

And then how do you keep that going so.

So what's?

So one of the first community questions, yeah, one of the first community questions is what do you see as the biggest challenges singles face in the dating world today, and how would you suggest people approach them?

That's a big question.

Yeah, that's a big and that's a popular question.

So I think one thing that we have to understand, and this is around the world.

So I primarily work in the UK, in the US and all throughout the Caribbean.

And so I'm seeing lots of different cultures.

And what's interesting is within every, within each one of those nations, within all the cultures within those nations, you have people talk about how hard it is, how challenging it is to meet a significant other in this day and age, right?

There's all these reasons, right?

There's so many reasons.

So, so the list of reasons are, are, are numerous, but one of the bigger reasons that I believe we have such an issue today is this whole paradox of choice.

And, and Barry Swartz wrote a book a long, long time ago around this, around the paradox of choice.

And he's the one who phrased the, the term less is more, or you could say more is less, right.

And this whole notion of analysis paralysis.

So whenever we're presented with many different perceived options and I want to under score perceived, whenever we're presented with many perceived options, we take less satisfaction in the choice or in the option that we actually choose.

So you think about a number one source of meeting a significant other today is online, right?

Without question, it's online.

A matter of fact, there's some studies that suggest that up to 80% of new spouses are the derivative is online, right?

There's a lot of Prince Harry, Meghan Markle commentary right now.

And we, I think one of the biggest epiphanies lately about them was, Oh my God, they've met.

They've technically met on Instagram, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Like back in the day, it used to be like one and three, right, Which which actually was a large number.

I remember that when I was when I was matchmaking 2014, 2015, it was like, right.

It was like 33%.

Now if you're saying 80I, I'm not surprised, but wow.

Right.

And and by the way, that 80% number is just going higher and higher.

Oh yes, and higher, yes.

So, but here's the issue as it connects to, to, to Swartz is that we have perceived options.

So many of us think we can get onto our mobile device and just keep swiping and swiping and swiping, endless choice.

And therefore, when we do end up making a choice, we have so little satisfaction, so little value in that choice that right now, some of the crazy, some of the, I wouldn't even say crazy.

The startling, startling studies that I've seen suggest that one out of every two people who are on a date that goes wrong, right?

So you, you think that the date isn't going to last or, you know, you want to get out of the date, they have already jumped back on line on a dating app before they reach home.

So they're already in that swipe, already in the same in the same period.

So so the whole point is that we have less satisfaction the choices that we're making.

This, I think is driving a lot of the issues, not all, but a lot of the issues when it comes to us being able to do not connect.

And so the answer to that, the antidote to that is that you want to understand a you don't have endless choice.

Just because there is 50 million people on Tinder doesn't mean that you have, you know, 50 million options because because they're not all out there for you.

So that's is the is the intellectually understand you don't have endless choice.

Secondly, is to put more energy into the choices that you're actually making.

And that energy is not only in the, in the choice selection, but also how you show up, why you show up, the evaluation of the person when you show up, which hopefully we'll get into because I think that's also a, it feels like a, the evaluation how to choose a partner wisely is so is such a mystery to people.

But these are some of the antidotes.

But the reason because your question was, is why I think that it's a lot of it has to do with the analysis paralysis, right?

We think that there's endless choice out here.

Yeah, I, I fully agree with you, Paul.

So one of the, you know, I, I think this quote from your book is a, a great start to the, the getting into the deep of what makes a good match because people are going to be like, OK, I mean, I'm sure you get this question all the time as a matchmaker.

OK, well then, OK, how is this going to work?

Right.

And you say, I found in my practice that if you can confirm that a partner shares your top values, has a personality that meshes with your own, which is what I really want, I want to talk a lot about because people don't people miss that one and meet meets your non starters and there is a healthy level of romantic attraction.

OK.

We want, it's not always about just all the romantic attraction, which I think people are way too focused on.

Your chance of making a successful match goes from virtually nothing from about .04% to nearly 50% chance.

So 50% chance.

OK, OK, Paul, do you want to expand on that quote before we go into really talking about the non starters and personality types and what do you want to say about that?

I think those that really sums it up though, don't you think?

No, no, absolutely.

And and that is a great dovetail off of that, that last topic that we were talking about, because I think a big challenge that so many of us have is then when we're out on these dates and we're really trying to, you know, even like you asked, like what is a date?

You know, to, to me, it's about exploring if there is romantic interest or if you're already in a relationship to expand or to sustain that romantic interest, right.

That's, that's to me, what, what, what a date is.

But, but unfortunately, when a lot of people go on dates and they don't yet have that partner, they don't know how to determine if that person is the right partner, especially when most dates kind of start with people just binge drinking and then continuing to drink into the day.

So it's like, how do you assess?

And so that quote that you just pulled from the book is, I think a baseline.

It's like, OK, let's identify what are your values.

Let's see if there's a compliment in personality.

Let's see if there's any non starters.

So these are things that directly impact your health or happiness.

Do do you have any non starters?

Because if you do, it's going to directly impact my health or happiness.

Let's make sure that there's mutual attraction here, minimal level of mutual attraction.

If you have all of those things, you start from a place of strength opposed to a place of weakness.

Yes, and I imagine in your practice, what you're seeing with clients, which I was day in, day out is people come in and I say, OK, and you know, and maybe it was my own trap I was falling into was like, what are you looking for to mate?

Right.

That was my one of my first questions, of course.

And it would inevitably turn into this is my type, this is my list.

And I'm making, I've got my piece of paper, my pad of paper and my pen and I'm writing down the list of this.

I'd like you like we talked about it online dating.

It's like this is this this wish that you're putting on the universe for this perfect person that looks like this, that acts like this, that right?

And it's all, you know, for women.

He, you know, of course he has to be over 6 feet.

He has to be tall, he has to be successful, he has to be handsome, he has to be well groomed.

And like you, you have this, you have this list in your book too.

And the funny, funny thing is there's like these oxymorons that are obviously present, right?

Like, yes, it you say he has to take charge, lead and direct until she disagrees with his direction and a man who will pay the bills, but she but she has to be an independent woman, right?

It says, what are you talking about?

And then the men are like, OK, she's hot, she's attractive, She's skinny, she's slim, but maybe she's got a little bit of a booty, whatever.

But she's soft and gentle, nurturing.

But she's also has her stuff together and she's independent, but she also has to be a good mom.

And she's like drama free.

But it's just like all of these things, like, what do you?

And then you say, like, at the end of the day, are you asking for a computer program?

Like, is it a bot?

What's the word you use bot or whatever?

I can't.

Yeah.

But this is the problem with the type.

But this is so this is really where people are AT though.

And when they're going online, they've got their type.

When they're when they're putting it out there, it's so superficially focused.

So we really have to steer away from that.

We do.

And I guess we also have to understand that, you know, we get the type subconsciously, the type comes to us.

Yes, absolutely.

True.

The, it's based on the content that we've consumed across our life.

So the type begins in that whole attachment theory with attachment theory.

So in that attachment phase, So when we are literally, you know, from zero to age 4, roughly when we're forming that first love with the caregiver, that's that's where our type begins.

Whoever that first person is that we felt safe with who nurtured us, that becomes the ideal person because here this is this is exactly the person who is supporting us.

And then from there it grows, right when I say it grows is the type evolves.

So it's about where do we live?

Who were socialized around, right, The clubs and activities that we're in, the television shows that we're watching, right as we get older, organizations that we're a part of, organizations that we're not a part of, right.

All of these things, all of the content that we consume.

And right now, a lot of it is, is, is TikTok and Instagram and what we perceive as the ideal.

So the ideals of all of these types become what we see as our go to.

And so we have to understand, we just have to accept this.

This is why a huge part of relationships with other people begins with the relationship we have with our self.

And you can't have a relationship with yourself without understanding of yourself and why it is that you think the way that you do.

What drives that thought, right?

To actually do that exploration helps you tremendously because then you can understand how to manage and change if necessary.

So I'm totally with you on the type.

The types tend not to be successful.

They tend to be.

They tend to be.

Fences almost, because if someone doesn't fit that type, we end up pushing them away, whereas they could actually be a terrific match for us.

And so if we understand this, that types are not good, which they're not right, types are not good, then what we need to do is understand why it is that we create these types, and it's because of the content that we consume.

So therefore, how do we change it consume different content?

Really love that I you, you made a, an Instagram post on this a while back and it was something around.

It's so important what we daily consume.

What books are you reading?

What shows are you watching?

Who are you interacting with?

Like, I mean, it's just if it's all like, you know, you're watching horror movies you're watching like the you know, I don't, I don't know you're reading.

I do I do I do read the Daily News on my on my apps everyday just to see what's going on in the world.

But I have to take that with a grain of salt too.

But I know I know exactly what you're saying right now.

And I think, you know, going back to how our attachments are formed and where our type is formed.

I mean, it, it's so much of this is all of that.

I suppose.

Like, first, it's like little girls and boys like watching cartoons.

It's like the fairy tales.

And it's like, I mean, I grew up like we all grew up on that.

A lot of us did from a very young age until I stopped watching cartoons.

But all of it's the same message.

The woman, the girl gets saved.

It's like my Prince Charming.

And it's like everything has to do with finding that Prince and happily ever after.

It's like there's no set.

It's not.

That's not the way it goes.

Yeah, Robin, I mean, that's that's a brilliant, brilliant point because because even the print who is the Prince, the Prince is always like describe the Prince.

He's tall, dark, handsome and and and actually, I mean, even to get into the to to to the racial element is like, you know, the Prince is technically not dark.

He is tan features, but he's never a black Prince.

Yes.

So it's like you have all of these types that you're right as a child we're seeing and we buy into subconsciously.

So how do you work with clients to, because you, you know, it's talking about getting to know yourself first.

How do you work with clients to get to know their top values just quickly?

Like do you, do you point them to a website?

Do you?

Because I just think I, I thought about this because I'm like, I know I've done a lot of exercises like this in my life.

And if I was to say my top values, you mean off the bat, I'd know, you know, my family, my friends, my spirituality.

It's funny.

But even this year, I think your values can change.

Or maybe you just identify them differently.

But like this year, because we've gone through a lot of hardship on our family, I'm like joy.

I cannot live without joy.

It is a must.

It is like I need that in my life.

It is a value that I hold so dear.

And I didn't realize it until I was without it.

I'm like, you know, So how do you help people nail down their values before they are looking for that match and a partner?

Yeah.

You know, it, it's, it is, it could it, it can be tricky because to your point is values evolve and they, I, I, I even think they, they mutate in a way because, you know, joy is probably always been a value, but it's almost shape shifted, you know, across, across your life.

But one of the quickest ways, one of the best exercises, is to sit down and to identify where do you spend your extra money and your extra time.

Now, a lot of us don't have extra money or extra time, but I'm talking about, say you don't work on Sunday, right?

So what are you doing?

You didn't work.

Exactly what are you doing with that time?

Now clearly you could have worked all week.

So you sleep in, right?

It doesn't mean that you're valuing sleep, although we all should value sleep.

But what I'm saying is, is that then when you wake up and you have that extra time, you have some time on your hand, you have a free afternoon.

What do you do with it, right?

And if you look and then where you spending your money, right?

When you have a little bit extra to spend, what, where you spending it?

If you look across the last several months at that extra time and that extra money, that is probably going to be precisely what you value.

And the reason why this is to some people a shocking exercise is because we begin to see that we may value certain things that we don't profess to value, if you know what I mean, right, that we don't profess the value.

So what I found a lot of the time with with matchmaking is that if I were to ask, what do you value right out the gate, people would say religion, you know, it's all about religion is this is this is this.

And then when you begin to unpack their last several months or year, you realize, hold on for a second, do you truly, is this really what you value?

And so because you're not spending any time or money towards it, so you want to look at those things.

And that same exercise that you apply to yourself is how you evaluate someone else's values.

Because you could ask someone until they're blue in the face what do you value and they will always give you what they either want you to think they value or altruistically.

What they think they should value what they think.

Exactly, exactly.

Is it because they're out here trying to get trying to get that that job?

Yes, as your.

Woman or your?

Man, you know, but instead, that's why the evaluation period in dating is so important.

And so by the time you're on that 3rd, 4th, 5th date, you should understand it where you're on the call.

What have they been spending their time on?

What have they been spending their money on?

You know, they say they value family, but they never call their parents.

They never want to see their parents.

They like they're estranged from their from their family.

So how is it that they truly value family?

You know, my gosh, I.

Really like this?

Yeah, this is really good exercise.

Fantastic.

And this goes to I think what's really also very important which you which you mentioned a few times is, you know, the 4th, 5th date.

It's like give somebody, OK, first date if it's a complete disaster and you're like, this person is absolutely clearly not a match.

I do not want to see that person ever again.

Forget it, right?

However, like like Rachel, like Rachel Greenwald, who we both know and have learned under she, she always said like you give people three dates minimum, like just let's just start there and then we'll go up from or not.

But, and I really agree with that because it's like the first date is just like you, you posted something about this.

It's like you're interviewing or it's like a facade.

You're meeting somebody that is probably not showing up as themselves fully.

Yeah, they're representative.

They're.

Representative Right.

And by the second date, OK, maybe a little bit warmed up by the 3rd.

So I, I just think you have to give somebody time and you're not going to see their value show up or get to know that about them without giving them those like more than three, four dates, five dates, wouldn't you say you so?

So, so to that point, this, this touches upon what we were talking about earlier as far as when you said that, that first question was, well, how do we like there's, it's so hard to find a partner in, in this day and age.

And my thought was, OK, to counteract analysis paralysis, you have to put more effort into the selection.

Part of that is this idea of, and Rachel's idea of, OK, I'm going to see this person three times.

That's a totally different mindset that you have to go into that first date with.

Then if I'm going to see this person maybe for just 30 seconds, then I'm going to walk out, right?

The latter, but they become more disposable.

The former is, is hold on, if I'm going to go on three dates with this person, I am going to do a lot more analysis upfront.

But also I'm going to now have enough time to give my questions time to breathe.

And I'm not going to feel as rushed, but I'm going to also be an analytical.

It's a different approach that you take now, let me under score.

If you go on a first date, so I'm, I'm I buy the you should go.

You should, you should go into your first date thinking that you're going to see this person many times after.

But if you go into the first date and there is no, you feel there's, there's the person's not listening to you.

They're not listening to you and or you feel as if there's no physical attraction from your side.

No, I'm talking about 0 physical attraction 0 and there's no, there's no need for a second date.

There's no need for, for, for any, anything.

But if you find that they listen to you, there's a minimal level of physical attraction, you need to show up on that second date.

It's, it's very important, very important because there is.

This notion, I love talking to you, Paul.

It's so funny.

And I feel like we're like, I love matchmaking conversations.

It does this.

This is my real house.

I love it.

So what about this notion that you can build attraction?

OK, let's just say right, you're, you had a great conversation, This person super interesting.

They listen to you, but like you said, there's no attraction.

What about this notion that you can build attraction over time?

Yeah.

So the question I I love this question because this has also been one of the most popular questions through the years, right.

So I now have the research to back up all of all of my my answers on this one.

Yeah.

So if there is let's like cut right to the chase on physical attraction.

The real question around that for most people is would you have interest in having sex with this particular person, right.

Like ultimately, and I'm not talking about one off, I'm talking about continually or you know, with with with.

OK, I'll try it once and.

See if I like.

It yeah, because you talk to especially you talk to a lot of guys, they're like what?

Yeah, what time, but but no, no, I'm talking about the team, right.

So this is one question Now the next is is there zero or is there minimal?

Because there's a difference between 0 and normal.

0 means no, I have no attract.

They're at no attraction.

Minimal means, yeah, I've seen a lot better looking guys or girls or whatever it may be.

And you know what?

There's certain things about them that are, you know, that are not appealing.

But minimally, like, like that's, that's, that's minimal.

I can see it.

Maybe.

Yeah, if you could see it, maybe that is enough to get you into the game.

Because what the studies then show is that attraction builds over time as we become more intimate.

And I'm talking about physical intimate, I'm talking about emotionally intimate because there's a whole range of emotional intimacy.

And the highest, the highest level of emotional intimacy is complete utter vulnerability.

And in order to get to that highest level of emotional intimacy, you need to have complete utter trust.

And here is my guarantee is if you have complete utter trust with someone that you could be entirely you and vulnerable with, I guarantee you if you started at minimal attraction with them, they will be super hot to you.

Super, yes.

Right.

Oh yeah.

So so so.

So, so, so, so this is something that we have to understand.

Then also from a pure artificial standpoint, I should say artificial from a pure superficial standpoint, because this is what a lot of the guys, I hear a lot of the guys, a lot of the fellas, but, and I know a lot of ladies say the same thing is, Oh my gosh, I'm minimally attracted to them.

Now, once they get 1015 years older, like, ah, none of them.

Let me tell you, we live in a day and age where you have men and women who are 60 and 70 physically looking way superior to 30 year olds out here.

I mean, we have right now, we're living in a different age where we are much more health conscious.

So even though we have high levels of, of, of health issues, we're just more health conscious and we're more cosmetically aware than we were in the past.

You know, when I, when I talk about cosmetics is you think about even how shirts fit people, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and jackets and clothing, they fit and they hug in different areas to enhance the physicality of us, right.

It's a different age.

It's a different age.

And so from, from a superficial standpoint, there's no like we're just getting better with age, you know, in essence.

But then also the larger point is if there's a minimal level, I guarantee you, you work on the emotional intimacy piece, it's going to take you, it's going to take you, it's going to take you home, It's going to, it's going to move you from Canada to Oh yeah, yes.

Because I can be fully myself with that person, I can share a lot more than just this physical it.

It's this, this deeper openness that you can have with somebody and that lends itself to good sex.

I mean, really.

No, no.

It's it's not just we.

Know that it's not just like this having like sex with somebody you don't know is like, you know, often uncomfortable.

Like, I mean, you know, and then it's just.

But if you know somebody really when we love them and you have that, let's just say you have that deep sense of I'm feeling really good around this person outside the bedroom.

Inside it's going to be even better.

So yeah, hands down.

Hands down, yeah.

So let's.

Talk about non starters because I want to understand how you help your clients identify what those are.

You said they affect your health and your happiness long term.

So how do you and this is this is a need, right?

Or is this this is a want?

Oh, there's not a want your preference.

This is like a deal breaker.

Like how do you I want to understand the difference between non starter need and deal breaker.

Are they the same?

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

No, no.

Good.

Good.

Good question.

Good question.

So I, you know, we all have wants.

To me, a want is a bonus, you know?

Yes.

But.

But but a need is never a bonus because a need is what you require.

A need actually is a part of your boundary.

And I always say that the higher our boundaries, the higher quality of life we have.

So a need makes up a need is like a brick in your boundary, you know, in your, in your, I like that, your boundary fence.

That's what a need is.

And so a non starter is exactly that.

It's one of those bricks.

And a non starter is something that directly impacts health and happiness.

And and really what that means is it it directly impedes, you know, it stops your health or happiness.

So a big one, a big big one, the desire to have children.

Yes, this, this, this, this, this, this comes up all the time.

You know someone who feel you know so and it's, it's typically talked about from the woman's perspective, but even I'll talk about it from my perspective.

I knew since I was little that I wanted to have kids.

I had a cabbage this Cabbage Patch Kid named Raymond that I used to carry around.

All the time I.

Love that to the I had a cabbage.

Patch Kid too.

That was our generation movie.

Yeah, yeah.

What was your cat?

Do you remember?

You know what's really funny?

Is that I was, I was that girl that had had dolls because my mom and dad bought them for you.

But I had two brothers and so I played more with my brother's toys than I did with the dolls.

I can't remember their names at all.

I wasn't attached to them in any way.

Oh my gosh.

Well, Rob, I was in love with little Raymond.

This is how in love I was.

I brought so I got Raymond when I was, who knows, You know, maybe I don't know, 11-12, who knows.

But I kept Raymond, and I brought Raymond to college with me.

Wow.

Oh my God, Bob, so so.

When I moved into my dorm I had Raymond with me, so it was one of those where everyone knew okay, this guys like just a little weird or he really wants to have kids.

That is so.

Cute, yes.

So, so for me that was a that's a non starter.

We're not, I mean, I'm sorry, we can't do this.

If you can't, if you're not, if you're and it's not even just you being open to the conversation, it's no, you've consciously thought about wanting to have children and you've said to yourself, you are interested, right?

That is a boundary.

And so that's, that's one a very popular non starter today is, are you interested in having, are you interested in being married?

Because we're, we're, we're, we're also in a day and age where we have many nuances to coupling now, right?

It's not just marriage.

Hundreds, literally hundreds of variations of, of, of, of coupling, you know, from polyamorous to, to, you know, other non monogamous styles to monogamous styles, you know, you, you, you just, there's lots of different.

And so one question for a lot of people, a lot of people say to themselves, well, you know, I, I want to be married.

I, I want to be married, but there are many people who have no interest, no interest in marriage.

That could be a non starter, right?

So non starters, they're bricks within your boundary fence.

There are things that directly impact your health or happiness, yes.

Really like that.

I can't believe the time is going by so fast, Paul, but I do want to touch about really importantly as well is understanding your own personality type and how important that is and then how you want to find somebody that has a personality type that complements yours.

And really because really what what this comes down to on the very simplest basis is you want to be with somebody that you can get along with long term.

I mean, you are talking about being with this person.

If you are thinking marriage and long term or even it just you want to be in a relationship with somebody, you want to have you, you want to enjoy their company and actually be with them.

Just have a good, like, I mean, you're here to enjoy life, right?

I mean the life is so life is so difficult at times.

And if you don't, if you can't be with somebody that you really want to be with that you enjoy being with, then what's the point?

So I, I just think there's, there's not enough discussion around personality types when it comes to finding your match.

It's like, it's so like we just talked about the beginning.

It's so much about the stuff like their job or what they look like and their, their stature and all this.

Just like what are you talking about?

You have to really like that person and get along with them right?

Amen, Robin, I mean, everything you're saying I'm saying, I'm saying Amen to, you know that I agree.

A matter of fact, via social media.

The last couple months I've been really, Oh my gosh, I've just been going in on this subject because we don't do enough analysis.

And yeah, it doesn't sound, it sounds kind of nerdy to say doing analysis, right.

But but no, no, but that's the case because if your route is a partner for life, you have to understand that that's the most important decision of your entire life.

More important as.

Far as you go to.

More important than the jobs you choose, more important than the friends you choose, it is who is going to be your partner for life.

If that's what you, if that's the route that you want to go, that's your most important question, right?

So that's your most important question.

That's the most important decision.

You have to give it analysis.

You have to give it diligence, right?

You have to give it investigation with rigor.

And to your question of personality, we don't give personality typically any analysis.

And to me, personality is even more important than just base level communication.

My first time using ChatGPT, what I did is I went into this AI system and I said.

I want you to tell me the 10 most popular books ever written on finding and keeping love.

And then ChatGPT gave me the list of the books.

Yes.

And then I said, I want you to summarize each one of these books and tell me what were the top three lessons from these top books ever written on finding, keeping love.

And then it's, and then check.

And once it works in seconds.

So then Chat ChatGPT came back and #1 by far as you could probably guess was these books talked about communication and the important, the importance of being to the importance of articulating an idea and having someone to receive the idea.

But this is what I think has been missed in the conversation about communication.

Great personalities.

To me it's about the ability to resolve conflict, yes.

That's.

Really what the personality is about, because you can say a relationship is purely about joy, which I think it's definitely about joy, but many of us could also look at a relationship and say it's also a place of growth, yes.

And.

If a relationship is a place of growth, it must mean it's a place of discomfort, because you can't have growth without discomfort.

And if it's a place of discomfort, that means it's a place of disagreement.

And if it's a place of disagreement, that means it's going to be a place of conflict.

There's going to be.

Conflict inevitable, are you?

That means.

But if it is, if it is, you need to have communication to resolve the conflict.

Yes.

And and to me, that's what having great, you know, or I should say great complementary personalities is all that's right.

That's the reason why it's so important.

That's right.

And in.

Your book you, you do go through a lot about this and I think it's not about finding somebody that's exactly like you, because that is probably not going to work, but it's it's finding something that'll compliment you.

I think about myself, I was I was trying to think about because you you use Carl Young's model of personality types in your book and I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, OK, and I have to and I, I really want to dive into that a little bit more to actually pinpoint.

I think I'm a few, I think I'm, I'm definitely like a little bit of AI don't know mixed with controller and promoter.

So we are out of time.

I can't believe this, Paul, but I and I wanted to talk for I want to talk about another hour about like you, you and you and Jill have this amazing thing called 10 lessons about marriage.

And I just want to ask you to come back on our show and we can talk about that because we talked about the finding and we talked about the keeping.

Because I think when you implement these like these principles that we just talked about when you're looking for a mate, this gives you so much better chance of finding and finding somebody that you can actually be with long term.

Really.

I mean, it's so, so important.

So I think we covered, but then next time we talk, I really want to go into the keeping love and how you do that long term because you've been with your wife for over 21 years.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

It's.

20/22/22 years.

Wow, yeah, that's that's just beautiful.

And and yeah, just you're such a great teacher and a great mentor and all around great guys.

So thank you so much, Paula, for our time.

I appreciate it.

But but.

But Robin, there's one question I have to ask you.

You didn't give me the the the Rachel.

Oh my God, I didn't.

Give you the Rachel story.

OK.

So yeah, we are similar in the fact that we changed careers.

I was, I mean, I've, I've had different careers in my life.

I sold medical supplies for many, many years, loved it.

I became a realtor and then I had my first daughter and I took a year to be with her.

And then I was like, OK, I'm going back into the workforce.

And I was like, I don't want to do that again.

So I thought, you know what?

I'm going to do something different.

And my twin brother, he's like, Robin, I think you should become a matchmaker.

Like, who the hell thinks of that?

I feel like it was out of nowhere, like out of left field.

I said to Reese, I was like, are you crazy?

Like, what are you talking about?

He's like, I think you would love it.

I think you just go into it, Just look into it.

So I did my research and I found Rachel.

I, you know, I'm like, I'm going to learn from the best of the best.

That's the only way to do this.

If I'm going to enter a new career, I better interview different people that are doing really well in this and see if this might be a good path for me.

And so I did, She was one top on my list.

I interviewed actually quite a few matchmakers, mostly out of the states.

And Rachel said you need to come to Denver and take my matchmaking boot camp.

So I did that and, and then I went to, I went and joined the matchmaking Institute with Lisa Clampett.

And anyways, I studied and I took, you know, went, I did, I did the whole thing.

I felt like I went to back to school for two years, started my own practice as a matchmaker and love coach and did that for, for many years before entering into this, this side of the love business.

But it's so we have, we have, we have Rachel in common and I love her so much.

And Lisa?

And Lisa.

And Lisa.

Lisa is.

So great.

So it's a it's a beautiful world being in this business.

I really, I get to meet people like you and and talk about what's really important, which is our relationships.

There's nothing more important.

No, nothing.

Nothing more important.

Amen.

I mean every I've been saying Amen.

It's everything that that you said.

I completely I completely agree.

Completely agree.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

Thank you.

It's been an honor.

Thank you.

So.

Much for being here with us, Let's Talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme.

If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love.

If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things.

Follow or subscribe.

Never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite app.

This makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show.

Leave a rating and review.

Your feedback means everything to us.

By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support but also helping others discover the podcast.

Share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life.

Whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear.

We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coach Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Many blessings and much love.