Broadcasting from Studio A Here at Proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs.

It's The Gardening Simplified Show with Stacy, Hervella, me Rick Weist, and our engineer and producer Adrianna Robinson.

Today we talk about architectural garden follies.

They're decorative, non essential structures often found in gardens or landscapes.

They're originals, not mass produced, but it's garden ornamentation.

At least you could argue that because it's there for esthetic purposes.

A folly is an ornamental structure, sometimes strange, whimsical, built for a purpose pleasure, sometimes ruins, sometimes made up ruins a variety of architectural structures, and in England, follies and ruins are most often located in landscapes, gardens, on private estates.

Garden follies began popping up on the sprawling grounds of estates throughout England and France in the eighteenth century, and the building's often served little purpose other than showcasing a land owner's wealth.

It can also be a gathering hub in a landscape.

You can use an actual ruin or make one up, and we'll talk about it today.

In segment four.

Stacy when we talked to Lisa Roper Chanta Clear Gardens.

I know, I'm very excited about that.

We have a guest for the end of the show here who is going to talk about contemporary follies, which is not something that necessarily happens a lot, at least that we know of.

I'm sure there's some very wealthy people out there hopefully building private gardens and spending lots and lots of money on follies.

I really hope that's happening as it did in eighteenth century England.

But the cool thing is there's a lot of follies contemporary like at Chanticleaer Gardens and vintage antique that you can see across the world, but especially in Europe.

England is kind of the epicenter of the garden folly.

And you know, thinking back to my garden history classes, the archetype of all folly landscapes is a garden called Stowe Stowe, so you might want to look that up to start your folly journey.

And you know, in addition to showcasing the owner's wealth, very often the follies were metaphorical.

They were intended to kind of create a tableau recalling a certain time or a certain type of landscape.

So the pastoral landscapes of Pousin and Claude Lorraine were sort of recreated in reality in these gardens.

And another thing that's really important about them from a gardening perspective is that they were almost always sighted in a magnificent way, so that you would look at them across the lake.

You know, there were definitely some that were intended to be discovered as you strolled through the garden, but very often, you know, it was some sort of Greek temple that wasn't really a temple.

And this is the important thing.

Yes, you could go into it and you could experience it, but it was not really a temple that was intended for worship.

It was a temple that was intended to call to mind the you know, classical period.

But in England a variety of architectural structures you're so right, Stacey, fake cottages, temples, abbys, some may be falling into disarray, bridges to nowhere, fences that maybe are a backdrop drop but don't serve a purpose.

But usually some sort of structure or building.

For myself, I fell in love with landscape or garden follies years ago when visiting Monticello and Virginia and Thomas Jefferson's garden.

So Thomas Jefferson served two terms as president.

I think it's eighteen oh one to eighteen o nine.

As he's in his second term, he's thinking, I want this pagoda or structure in my garden where I can just sit and reflect.

And of course the one you see there in the garden today was rebuilt.

But of course Jefferson took extensive notes.

He was no stranger to Europe for sure, and so something like this was very appealing to him.

And in the vegetable garden, for example, on the mountaintop, thirteen feet by six inch square structure with arched entry points on all four sides, and you can just picture Thomas Jefferson sitting there in his pavilion, and I just fell in love with them at that point.

But of course they can be Classical Greek, Roman, Gothic pagodas, rustic cottages.

All of these things are in play.

And now you know, maybe they were hunting towers or lookout posts, but today the beauty of following is, you know they're utilized as tourist destinations, wedding venues, even filming location.

Yeah, they're so iconic, you know.

I think if you do look up the pictures of Stowe.

Stourhead is another one that's very similar, you would probably recognize these pictures is ones that you've seen in the past.

But the point is, you know, nowadays, if we do need a little shade in our garden or want to create something, we tend to, you know, go to the box store and pick up something that's all over the place.

And I'm glad you mentioned that they're not mass produced.

These are custom builds that align with the owner's vision and they are needlessly ornate and needlessly imaginative, which is what makes them so wonderful because they don't have to necessarily be there.

They don't have to be that way.

They could have a utilitarian structure, but they chose to go, you know, full bore and do something that is truly remarkable.

I love a great pergola, and if you think about it, you know, pergolas have a long history ancient Egyptians, the Roman Empire, they grew grape vines on them, they provided some shade.

But today a pergola in a landscape isn't necessarily there for the function, but rather the looks.

And I'm working on building one in my landscape where I will use all old lumber from a lumber mill and rusty iron angles to hold it together.

And I'm really looking forward to it, and for our gardening friends, I personally believe the best plant for a pergola.

You know, you'll see pergolas that are overpowered by wisteria or trumpet vine or, in the case years ago, grape vines.

I think clematis is the perfect plant for pergola.

Well, it depends on your hype, because some clementists don't go that high.

Yes, but yeah, if you get a nice vigorous one that can clamber all over that.

Now it's funny that you mentioned this, because I also considering a pergola.

I have to confess it was not going to be a folly.

We are probably going to buy a kit from a box store, but we are going to cover it with grapes to put over a dining terrace, because that's classic, right, So you know, unless we get a whole lot of I guess motivation or inspiration, we're going to do it pretty standard.

But I like your idea of using all of this cookie, old materials.

It's going to give it a lot of sense of place.

And that's what the follies are about, as well as a sense of place that they are exclusively associated the sighting that iconic scene, so closely associated with that specific garden.

A gathering hub where you want to hang out.

Now, Stacey, you know I've got a thing for five gallon pills, but I also have a thing for bricks.

I love to collect bricks.

My dad loved to do that too, collecting stones for the garden and landscape.

So you could say I'm a chip off the old patio stone.

I've got a couple sample bricks here for our YouTube viewers.

One is Metropolitan Block, Canton, Ohio.

The other one is a Nelsonville brick.

Now, these are historic bricks.

They were used for paving the streets years ago, and of course we don't use them in most places anymore and they were discarded, but a lot of people like to reclaim these utilize them within their landscape.

They're super heavy, they're nine pounds each.

Nine pounds each, and he hauled them all the way to studio A just for our YouTube audience to see.

It wasn't easy, but you know.

They even have a festival in Ohio and Nelsonville.

We'll put the link at our website.

They use a salt glaze process.

It was taken from the pottery industry to make these bricks.

And many of these companies were in existence in the eighteen hundreds, after the Civil War, all the way up to the Gray Depression, when some of them went out of business.

They developed star bricks that they used for sidewalks.

As a matter of fact, the Nelsonville Brick Company had Star bricks for sidewalks that won first prize at the nineteen oh four World's Fair in Saint Louis.

Think about the Indianapolis five hundred, the brickyard, the finish line.

I understand they have a stash of these bricks.

No one can see them, but of course from time to time they have to replace a brick along the finish line.

Did not know that.

So recycling bricks and using them in your landscape, I love to do that also for that reason, Stacey, Today, instead of a limb or rick, I'm going to give you a limb a brick to celebrate these wonderful bricks that can be used in Folly's hardescaping with stones and sticks.

They're all in my bag of tricks.

Don't need water, won't freeze.

I create with the greatest of ease.

I use bricks simply for kicks.

And now you know something else about me.

I like bricks.

We'll see how Stacey ties this in and plants on trial.

That's coming up next here on the Gardening Simplified Ship.

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Reading's gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where instead of talking strictly about plants today we are talking about garden follies and architectural phenomenon of primary eighteenth century England, where very wealthy people were designing these beautiful landscape gardens and gardens.

You know, they did have like conventional flower gardens, but we're talking about like the big engineered rolling landscape with a man made lake and you know, the amazing sort of Greek or Roman temple back there.

The oldest follies actually date back to the fifteen hundreds.

There is a very well known garden that you might want to look up called Bomarzo or the Sacrobosco in Italy.

It's also known as the Monster Park because yes, and when you see a picture of this you it'll make perfect sense to you.

They just made these crazy different monsters and fantastical sculptures and caves with big monster mouths, and so that's kind of one of the earliest examples.

And then you know, Strawberry Hill Versailles, of course, is a very famous one.

Is I think perhaps one of the most ridiculous ones in my research for the show is the Dunmore Pineapple in Scotland, which is a summerhouse with a massive pineapple, a massive and when I say a massive stone pineapple, I mean I think this thing is probably twenty feet tall.

I saw that.

It's incredible.

I'm not in person.

I saw it on the yes online.

And then of course, like I mentioned, stow Stowe, Stour Head, Strawberry Hill, there's lots of really cool ones that you can look up to get inspired and like we said in segment four, we're going to be talking to Lisa Roper from Chanticleer on contemporary follies and in public gardens.

And most of the ones that we I think all the ones that we listed are actually public gardens.

So that's the great thing is if you are traveling to Europe, you can almost certainly visit some of these gardens and see them for yourself.

But let's say you have some sort of folly in your yard.

And you know, even though we're using these examples of these massive scale, very expensive you know, and prohibitive, if not from budget but from a space perspective, because most of us don't have that much room in our gardens to build that kind of thing.

It's like you said with your pergola, there are different ways that we can kind of incorporate this concept of folly, of something that is needlessly ornamental, that is just you know, it's not strictly utilitarian.

It may have a utilitarian purpose as well, but it's not strictly utilitarian.

There's ways you can do that in your yard.

Now.

Yeah, where I hope to put the pergola Stacey is in an area where there was an old shed.

There was a concrete perfect the shed fell apart, going to put a pergola in its place, I already have the floor nice.

I mean, that works out perfect.

So it's just kind of a choice that you make in how you use your property.

But whether you actually are considering a folly, maybe even have a folly, or just kind of want a plant that's going to give you folly vibes in your landscape.

That is today's plant on trial, and it is glow stick Japanese.

Holly because it rhymes with folly.

I didn't even know.

I didn't even think about that.

That was not why, but that is a delightful little coincidence.

I picked it because you know, follies are, of course by nature, architectural, and when you have a kind of architectural feature in the landscape, it's good.

Depending on on the style and everything and the look that you're going for, it's good to have architectural plants to complement that.

Now you can also and we'll certainly see this when we talk to Lisa about Chanticleer Ruin that there's a mix of kind of soft, almost weedy looking plants as well as architectural plants.

They both help help to play a role in kind of setting the folly within the landscape.

So glow stick Japanese holly is basically what the name says.

This is a yellow leafed Japanese holly that naturally grows with a stick like columnar habit, so it gets to be four to six feet tall, but just one one foot wide.

That's so cool.

It is so cool.

And the nice thing about this plant is that it's golden foliage does not burn in the sun.

So lots of older, more conventional golden leaf hollies they start it starts getting really sunny out there, especially if you are in a warmer climate, and that yellow foliage either burns, turns brown, or it bleaches out.

Either way, it doesn't look great.

And that is a really crucial quality for us here at preven Winter's color choice shrubs to find golden foliage that doesn't fade or burn or bleach out in the sun.

So this doesn't it has it in our extensive trials here in Michigan, nor did it in our trial gardens in North Carolina where it was developed by the one and only ultra talented doctor Tom Rainey.

Now that would explain why it's such a.

Cool exactly, and that helps it to be really easy to grow and really easy to use in the landscape.

It is also an ever green, so it's a broad leaf evergreen, and that's another I think really important quality of planting around a folly or again the folly vibes, is to have this year round beauty.

Of course, you're going to want to have the deciduous plants too to kind of again create that seasonal effect, but having these structural architectural plants like glowstick Japanese holly is really really important.

Now it is hardy down to USDA Zone five, but if you are going to grow glowstick or any Japanese holly down in USDA Zone five, even USDA Zone six, this is definitely one of those plants that you're going to want to make sure you have mulched, good two to three inch layer of shredded bark mulch over those roots to help protect them and can serve moisture all year round, but especially in winter, and if you are in those colder areas, you might consider citing them in a way that's just a little bit protected from the worst of the winter winds now.

If you are in USDA Zone seven or eight, which which is the heat tolerance range of glow stick Japanese holly.

No problem, you don't have to worry about it.

You can just enjoy this plant all year round.

It's going to do great for you.

Now, I did kind of want to talk about using this plant in the landscape because that fastigit or columnar habit that it has makes it super versatile in the landscape.

And you can imagine a space saving hedge, which is how we very often talk about using fastigit plants in the landscape, and it.

Gives you design options.

I see where you're going.

Yes, so nice space saving hedge if you want to do that.

You can also pair them at an entryway for that great formal look.

As always I like to mention as someone who has had to do a professional Christmas lighting before, makes a nice structure for you to put your holiday lights on if you are so inclined.

But in the spirit of the Folly conversation, I also wanted to throw this idea out there, and again this is something that we're going to learn probably from Lisa when we talk about Chanticleer, because this is something that I saw used to great effect there.

So instead of just buying all three gallon plants or all one gallon plants or whatever, a great way that you can use this plant is to buy multiple sizes and mix them within your planting.

So say you buy, you know, it's a great idea one three gallon, you know, maybe one two gallon and five one gallons, and then you're kind of mixing them within this space.

And what that does is it kind of calls to mind a natural colony of this plant, as though it had spread by seed, and all the plants are different ages, and that really kind of helps to settle something in and provide that lived in, been there a long time kind of look.

Oh, I like that approach.

And the older I get, Stacey, the more and more I appreciate the structure of certain plants and then to be able to do that in a design that would stand out.

Yeah, it's a it's I think it's a thing that people don't very often think of.

This also works beautifully with boxwood or other shapes of Japanese holly, and it's just something to consider, you know.

I know it's an idea that people often struggle with, is okay?

I like this plant, I want to plant it, but you know, they kind of just get at home and boo, put it in a straight line.

And this is a way to kind of again mix things up and create more depth and more interest in a really really simple way.

Also saves money because you're not having to spend all of your money on those bigger, more expensive plants, you're mixing in some of those smaller ones.

Another way you can do this is also just to add to it gradually, so you know, plant a couple of them, let them grow a couple of years, and then come back and add those, you know, to one or two gallons, and you know, just use time to your advantage as well, kind of group them in groups of three, because that obviously looks more natural.

But that's a really fun way again to get that kind of kind of more again settled in look in the landscape that people don't necessarily always consider so space saving plant.

It is moderately dear resistant, I would say.

Have you I would agree with that, And of course hollies that I've grown kind of adapt as far as the prickly nature of the leaves are concerned.

I don't know if that's a fig leaf of my imagination.

Or what well.

The Japanese holly does not have prickly leaves, so if prickly leaves have been keeping you from growing a holly, don't worry.

It has a very small, spoon shaped generally spoon shaped foliage, tiny textural plant, so you don't have to worry about any thorns whatsoever.

And it is a female Japanese holly, so if you have a male Japanese holly nearby, like compacta, it will get blackberries and you can imagine how amazing this plant is going to look with that golden foliage and some blackberries nestled up in there.

So a very cool plant, whether you have a fall or just looking for something interesting and year round interest.

Glow Stick Japanese Hollie is available now and will be also available next spring if you are looking for something inspiring, so you can check it out at our YouTube or visit Gardeningsimplified on air dot com or more information.

We're going to take a little break and when we come back, we're opening up the mail bags, so please stay tuned at Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs.

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Gardening Friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where it is our pleasure to help you with your garden questions, quandaries and conundrums.

And if you have one of those, you can reach out to us at help at Gardening Simplified on air dot com, or just visit Gardening Simplified on air dot com and use our contact form to send us a question.

We don't get to all of the questions, of course, because a some questions are just a little too complicated to answer on air, and you know, we don't like to just sit here and give you a list of plants that you can't even imagine, because that's kind of boring.

So we answer questions that we try to find are of general interest to most people, so if we can't answer your question, we do still want to help you, so just reach out to us at Perfume Winners, Color Choice dot com and you will get an answer from one of our horticulturists.

So we are here to help you, and we're kicking it off with a comment.

Yeah.

Comment.

We got a picture from a listener who sent this to us.

Marge needed to send you this picture I took on a walk this week.

Thought of you Rick and your Beatles comment on this weekend show last week's show, when I talked about how I hate weeping trees that are prone to look like the Beatles, And here's a weeping beach that looks like it, she says, old, bloody, old bla dah.

Life goes And we will have pictures of that on YouTube if you want to see it.

And you know, I think of all the weeping trees out there, it's the most tragic to do this to a weeping beach because weeping beaches are so majestic.

This is for you.

It's Stacy's birthday.

I'm hijacking our mailbox this week to say a happy birthday.

And I would say to you, Stacy, how many times have you been given a brick for your birthday.

I have never been given a brick for my birthday.

Is this is a beauty.

This is a beauty.

I love the glaze.

This is fabulous and this will absolutely earn a place in my garden.

Thank you, Rick.

Sorry to call you out like that, but it is her birthday and we have to celebrate, and I thought, what better.

You know, I'm the guy who gave her a Macromain long chair.

Why not follow it up.

We're using it too, so and I will be able to sell.

Put the brick where I can see it.

And thank you Rick.

Those very very very sweet.

But yeah, please don't do this to a weeping beach.

Of all plants, you know, I see people do it to weeping cherries.

Okay, but weeping beaches are truly majestic, and it's a shame to give it a little beetles haircut.

I agree.

Jeannie writes to us, I'm looking for suggestions on privacy plants and others which thrive in beach sand, you wrote to the right show, right, Yes, what do you recommend?

Well, honestly, I would say, you know I'm going to give you an answer, but my answer is going to be based on the advice that I'm about to give you, which is go to the beach and see what grows.

So if you're out here in West Michigan, you know, you go to any of our state parks or county parks like Rosy Mound Park out here in Grand Haven and see what's growing.

And the number one plant that you are going number one evergreen that you're going to see growing is juniper.

Yes, and that is a true testament because those are growing wild.

And if something is growing wild, of course that means it's adapted to those conditions, and not that many plants really are going to be doing great in a truly sandy situation.

I think juniper is a massive exception to that.

They seem to love it.

I agree with juniper, and I'm going to suggest ornamental grasses to help myself and my neighbors use them.

We don't cut them back in winter.

We wait until spring to cut them back.

So there are a number of grasses miscanthus that will get tall enough to provide you some privacy.

Well that's a great point too.

I didn't think about that at my mind immediately when to evergreens, But of course Anyone who goes to the beach is going to notice our abundance of beach grass.

So grass obviously is well suited.

So and the nice thing is, you know, if you live in a colder climate, which I assume that you do, you're out here in West Michigan, you know you don't necessarily need that winter privacy.

You're probably not in your yard.

And in which case, you know, in the grass, leaving it standing still does provide good privacy.

You just kind of have that window in late winter through about mid spring where you're waiting for it to actually start growing and filling in.

The nice thing about the junipers as an option, and it's true with the grasses as well, lots of different colors and sizes.

And with the junipers you can get big plants that are going to take up a ton of space as well as fastigiit plants that will take up less space, just like we were talking about with glow stick Japanese holly, which I would not recommend for planting in beach sand.

It will not be happy and neither will you.

But visit your garden center, take a look at both of these options.

Don't be afraid to mix and match, because they also can work very well altogether, especially giving you that kind of beechy vibe.

Right, No, I agree, it'd be great, Lisa writes to us.

Help.

I bought a clearance, oh the best kind, a clearance three to four foot ember waves arbor Vite, all proud of myself thinking I got a great deal.

When I brought it home, I was disheartened to discover that the main leader had been tipped.

Do I return it and buy another for two or three times the price, or take my chances that the leader will sort itself out without looking wonky?

Also, do the ember waves really get eight feet wide?

Thanks so much for your timely advice.

All right, I want to answer this with a hot take.

Okay, all right, my hot take.

My hot take is the backing news is that leaders on most plants are overrated.

Not all plans, not all plans, and some plants it's extremely crucial.

But I think people get a little bit too freaked out by the lack of a leader, and that almost any plant that is inclined to form a leader will regrow one if it loses one.

Now, certainly, some really large trees like pines and spruces, losing their leader is not necessarily catastrophic because one of the reasons that I have this opinion is seeing the plants in Japan and when we were talking about our vacation episode, you know, all of the thousands and thousands of pines at the Imperial Palace in Tokyo have all lost their leaders.

They've specifically been pruned to not have their leader.

What great character, and they look beautiful.

And so I think with arborvidy, and this is not a plant I'm familiar with.

This isn't a proven winter's plant, So I'm sorry, I can't answer you for sure weather or not it gets eight feet wide, but I would trust that it would get at least that wide.

And I know that can be hard to believe when you've got that cute little plant in front of you, but it probably will and I would definitely account for that width.

But I believe that, yes, your plant will form a new You can also kind of force it to form a new leader by choosing a branch and starting to trim towards that.

But most plants that have this inherent tendency to have a leader will form a new one.

I can't add anything to that.

Stacy.

Other than to say, Lisa, you bought it on clearance, I would accept compliments on its character.

You enjoy it, and it will grow in a pyramidle form.

It's just going to take a little while.

And this happens to me with a juniper.

I had a fastigiit juniper that was a seed grown juniper.

It lost its leader from a really heavy snow and ice load and it had this big, horrible looking hole in it for like two months, and then a new leader emerged and now you can't even tell it ever lost it.

So you can trust the plant.

If it's really really important to you, then by all means go back and get the more expensive plants.

But I think you can trust that this one will will recover.

I love it.

Tina writes to us, I need help figuring out what's going on with my three year old royal star magnolia.

The shrub tree seems healthy.

I've seen two different explanations from different extensions.

One says insect go all, the other says seed pods help.

I'm in southeast Minnesota.

And we have pictures of this on YouTube, So join us on YouTube if you want to see a picture of that and I wanted to answer Tina's question today because this is not you know, there's certain questions that you always get as a horticulturist, right every year, right now, what is this plant with the pink stems and the purple berries and it's pokeweed?

Why is at my hydrange of blooming?

There's things you can predict.

And this year I've had more questions on magnolia seed pods than I've ever had before.

And the answer, Tina, is that those are simply the seed pods.

Agreat they are just the seed pods.

And the reason that they look so funky, and you'll certainly see this if you look at her pictures, and the seed pods on my magnolia look exactly the same.

The seed pods of the numerous magnolias in our trial garden look the exact same.

Because the magnolia seed pod looks a little bit like a pickle, is made up of numerous individual ovaries, and so when that's flowering, and if you look at the center of a magnolia flower, you will actually be able to see that.

So each of those, actually probably the whole thing, is considered an ovary, and each of those are considered individual fruitlets in there.

But when you have like some bumps and it's kind of twisting and turning in one side is bumpy, it simply means that that is where it got pollinated.

So not every single flower within that inflorescence actually was pollinated.

Only the ones that were pollinated start to swell, and it gives it that weird, contorted, twisted Look.

Now, as you were saying, Rick before the show, if you break that open, it'll be red red orange inside at this time of year.

And I would break one or two open and take a look.

Yeah, and if you let them open naturally, which they will do in the coming weeks.

It's very cool because the magnolia seeds come out on this little silken threat.

It's really beautiful and you can kind of pull them off and you can pull the thread out.

It's really long.

I don't know.

It's one of my favorite things about Magnolia's.

I love it.

They also have a really good kind of resinous smell.

Now, the other question that I got about magnolia seed pods earlier this year was from someone who was worried their magnolia was dying because the seed pods were dropping, and I told her, no need to worry.

It's just that they didn't get fertilized at all.

So in about midsummer, any fruits on the magnolia that did not have any fertilization happening, the plant just drops them.

So you have that drop earlier in the season.

Now you have the maturity and they will be bursting open probably in another four to six weeks.

Great description, yep, so enjoy them.

It is part of the show on a Magnolia.

We're going to take a little break.

When we come back.

We've got our guest Lisa Roper from Chanticleair Garden.

Simpley stay tuned.

Thanks for listening to the Gardening Simplified Podcast, brought to you by Proven Winners Color Choie Shrubs.

Our award winning flowering shrubs and evergreens are trialed and tested by experts with your success in mind.

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Greeting's gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show where I am so very very excited to have a guest Lisa Roper from Shanta Clear Gardens, which is in Wayne, Pennsylvania, not far from Philadelphia and honestly one of the best public gardens in the entire United States, certainly top ten in the world.

If you are a plant lover, this is a place that you have to see because they truly elevate horticulture to an art.

The science is still very much there, but the planting at Chanticleer is really done in a way that really can't be matched for artfulness and just with an appreciation for plants and their gestures, and it's fabulous.

It's open to the public April through November and you should definite only visit.

And with that I am going to bring in Lisa, Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much.

So tell our listeners, since we are based in Michigan and many of our listeners are also based here, that we have listeners across the country in Canada, tell them a little bit about Chanticleer, Okay.

Chanta Clear is a pleasure garden that's open to the public since nineteen ninety three.

It was the former home of the Rosengarden family.

They had a chemical company in Philadelphia, later merged with merk and they were famous for producing large quantities of quina.

The main house, built in nineteen thirteen as a summer residence, but eventually the family moved there and the son and the daughter as they grew up, each got their own house.

When I entered the scene in nineteen ninety Ada Frozen Garden Junior, the son was still alive.

He had set up a board and left an endowment, and by the time I started two months later, he had passed away.

But that's how we came to be open to the public.

We are still a private foundation, so it.

Was already in process as a garden where he passed away.

That is correct.

Chris Woods, a gardener from England, had been hired as the director.

I think I actually started as a gardener and he had a vision for this place.

Chris had just put out a book on perennials.

He's an incredible plantsman and designer and he just envisioned this very creative garden and set out to start doing it in nineteen ninety.

Well, and that's amazing because I was reading about you.

You have been there since the beginning as a horticulturist.

Since early, very early on, Yes, since nineteen ninety.

I got to see that the master plan go in and the garden open to the public and as the years have gone by, It's grown, our visitation has grown, and the matter of staff has grown, and the gardens have grown.

Well.

I can't lie.

I am like a serious fangirl because Lisa Roper is like the ultimate horticulture cool girl.

I was looking at her Instagram.

Not only is she an amazing plants person with incredible knowledge and an eye for design, but you've traveled all over the world studying plants, looking at plants like I mean.

And we'll give out your Instagram handle so people can follow you at the end of the segment.

But one of the reasons that Lisa, as a horticulturist at Chanticleer is the one who is joining us today is because she is the gardener in charge of the ruined garden at Chanticleer.

So with that, since we're talking about garden follies and I think the Chanticleer ruin is such an incredible example of a modern day or contemporary folly, can you tell us a little bit about how that came to be?

Yes, this idea occurred to Chris Woods in the early nineties.

As I said, he's British, and of course in Europe there are lots of follies and ruins, and in America, sincewits so new, there aren't.

But he envisioned turning the house that was Adolf rosen Garden Junior's house into a folly.

He wanted it to feel like an old, crumbling house that's been overtaken by vines and trees and so on.

And I'd say in the early nineties he started talking about it.

We went and visited ruins in Italy and England to get inspirations.

In fact, I remember going to Nympha in Italy, which is a beautiful ruined garden, very romantic but in the and he built it with the help of landscape architect Marabard, and they he envisioned it very green and textural and not romantic in Flowery.

And that's what happened, except the structural engineers recommended that instead of ruining the house, the stonehouse that was there, that we build the new ruin up from the footprint so it would just be more structurally sound.

And that happened in nineteen ninety nine.

And were you, and since you've been a part of Chanticleer, you know, since its inception, were you a part of that design process?

What did that look like.

So I was not in those days.

I was in the Asian Woods.

That was my primary garden for eleven years, and a woman named Laurel Varan, who has since moved to Michigan, gardened it first.

So I think I would say that, you know, I don't think she was that involved in the architect actual design of the ruin, but she was very involved in the planting up of the ruin, and you know, sort of teested certain things, like, for example, there are wall pockets in the ruin where soil is, and she first put ferns in them since it's kind of shady there, but even with drift irrigation, they didn't thrive.

So in the end she found succulents to be a better choice, and so she gardened there for about thirteen years before I came on the scene and took it over.

And you know, I feel like now it would be a good time to mention that one of the other things that makes Chantic Clear truly unique among public gardens is that it is considered a pleasure garden.

That's kind of your tagline, and you don't do labels.

For the most part, we do not.

We do label Woody plants, but they're usually discreete so you have done for them.

But what we do is put out plant lists, and each garden area has a beautiful plantless box where they're located that was made by one of the gardeners out of stained glass and metal or wood, each one different.

Eric Sue is our plant recorder and he's responsible for keeping track of all these plants and putting the list together.

So what does the plant box in the ruined garden look like?

It is a stained glass box.

I have never made any of them.

We all have different projects in the winter time, and Joe Henderson, the pond gardener, does a lot of them.

But I think Laurel did come too.

So it's a beautiful stained glass little box hung on the stone wall of the ruin.

So can you kind of paint?

Since we are a podcasts, there's going to be a YouTube version, and I know Adriana will have some photography of her own that she can share.

I have some photography from years ago when I last visited Chanticleer, So can you kind of just paint like a basic picture for our audio listeners of what the chant clear ruin looks like?

Okay, Well, as I said, it's built in the footprint of the house, so there are various rooms that correspond to what the house had.

When you enter it from the Sparrobolus meadow, going up the hill, you walk into a outdoor like sort of courtyard first where there are large sculptures of acorns and a stone stone oak leaves.

And then you walk into the dining room and there is the black granite water table, which was an inspiration from a garden in Italy called Villa Lante that Chris took us to, and around on the floor around the water table is a carpet made out of stone and tile.

The tile from the roof, which was terra cotta, was recycled to use as the sort of carpet pattern in that dining room.

And then from there you would walk into the library where stones carved into books by an artist named Marcia Donahue who did the acorns are also and these are kind of stacked and lying around, and if you look closely, they have different words in them, many of which are puns that reflect the garden or the ruin or people.

And then the last big room is where the faces fountain is, so there are two water features in this ruin.

The faces fountain is about waist high, and it has these just beautiful marble faces of pink and black stone, and there's waterfall kind of going over them.

So it's almost like everything that you described is it's like follies within a folly.

You know, all of these extra kind of visual puns and everything within something that's already a folly.

That's kind of amazing.

And the other thing is the walls are clothed in espaliers and vine for the most part.

I mean, there are a few shrubs in the ruin as well, but a lot of spaliers, which are trained shrubs or trees against they're trained against the wall, and then vines running up the wall.

So that's that's kind of the green part of the ruin.

There are some beds in it where some planting pockets inside too, So.

I did want to move on and talk about the planting and the kind of plants that are in it, because I know one of the things about Chanticleer is that you know, the gardeners of each of the section have substantial autonomy to you know, design it and include the plants that they envision for the area.

And of course the ruin is, you know, so very different than than the rest of the garden.

So sort of what is the what are the primary plants and the planting strategy that you put into being the horticulturist for the ruin.

You know, if I think about it, most of the plants that are there were put in before I took over, and I have just been gardening it, and I think that they're very successful.

I would say the key plant, if there is a our signature plant, would be a Acer davidii, which is a Asian maple with striped bark.

And this is espaliered on one wall above the water table.

It's also just growing as a tree in some of the planting pockets.

It has beautiful bark and some fall color as well.

That would be the signature inside the ruin.

But the plant that feels most like a ruin is actually mostly outside the ruin, although there's one inside, and that is a leaping spruce pica AB's pendula.

And these plants have been the central leader has been trained up as high as we can train them, and then they weep both and they have so much character.

They're all different from each other, and they look kind of like these creatures, these doctors' creatures walking up the path towards the ruin.

So they're almost like the ghosts haunting haunting the ruin.

So one of the planting kind of ideas that I picked up when I last visited Chanticleer, And as I recall, there were oak trees, small oak trees of kind of different ages popping up, and so I was wondering, you know, with the acorn sculptures that you referenced as part of it, sort of what is the significance of the oaks and the acorns within the ruined garden.

The idea is to keep those oaks juvenile and just have them like a forest kind of coming up and maybe looking like they're you know, like the house has gotten deserted and the forest is growing up.

In the beginning, Laurel used to replant these every year and then have them come up and then dig them out and plant a new one.

But now we found a technique that's much easier.

We just cut them back, like polard them to the ground and let them shoot up again when they're getting too big.

That is so smart, and I was wondering that from the last time I visited it, and I still remember that, even though it was you know, a good fourteen or fifteen years ago.

Was like, are they replanting this every year?

Or are they kind of compassing at tillarding it?

She probably was replanting it, but I have to tell you one of them got away from me and it's now now a tree.

These things happened, Things happened.

I wanted to ask you, Lisa.

I love American history and I've always enjoyed my visits to the Philadelphia area, and I think a visit to chant Clear would just be an exclamation point.

Such a beautiful place, so much romance involved.

I think about the early twentieth century people getting on the train and escaping the heat and the smells of Philadelphia to get out there.

But you mentioned an interesting thing at the outset of this interview, and that is with the original family, were they involved in the production of quinine?

Their company was, Yes, that's what their company did.

See.

That's so fascinating to me because the times that have gone to Philadelphia.

The City Tavern closed during COVID and I don't think has reopened.

But it's where George Washington dined when he was passing through Philadelphia during his inauguration as president, and so it was amazing to sit in city tavern there and have a meal.

But the interesting thing to me, Lisa, is that George Washington had a real thing for quinine, and many people would argue that we won the Revolutionary War because of quinine.

When General Cornwallis was in South Carolina and took the fight to South Carolina, mosquitoes became a serious problem, and the American soldiers had the advantage over British soldiers in that they had the availability of quinine, and many people believe it's that that won the Revolutionary War for us.

So I know, I went down a completely different path from ruins, but I love what you're doing there and chant to clear gardens, and I just think it gives me goose bumps to go to an area like that.

Well, I'll tell you another little thing.

There's a plant I grow outside of the gravel guard, outside of the ruin in the gravel garden, which I also take care of, and that's Parthenium integrifolium.

Its common name is false quinine.

And I do remember back in the nineties that Chris would introduce that plant to Shanicker because of the history.

Wow, yeah, yeah, there's great history to that.

I love that happened when it's just like kind of a little inside joke for the people who know, of course about the original owners of the property.

And I'm out Parthyu as well.

So I wanted to ask because I think this is something that when people do visit Chanticleer probably sticks with them.

I mean, of course, the ruin is definitely one of the most dramatic parts for someone who maybe doesn't have such an eye for plants, and it's just kind of taking in the whole experience.

But is the stone living room Was that put in at the same time as the ruin?

No, that's that's different.

Now.

Stacy's talking about a couch and two stone chairs that are in the gravel garden adjacent to the ruin, and those were put in by craftsmen and gardener Doug Randolph.

He started as a full time gardener here in the nineties and he then transitioned to be a part time gardener and craftsman and he built a lot of of our wooden furniture then, but he also carved these this furniture after actually learning how to use air tools from Marcia Donahue, the sculptor who gave us all those wonderful sculptures I mentioned, and so he made them.

And he also made a remote stone remote with little polished stones as the buttons.

Yeah, it's just another fun take on the folly, I think, even though this one does have some use, it definitely has a lot of folly vibes.

Yeah, we love whimsy, as Shanna Claire, I have to say.

And he used some of the micas shifts that was used in the ruin to relate the furniture to the ruin.

Yeah, Stacey shared some pictures with me.

You're talking about whimsy.

The drinking fountains, My word, those are amazing.

Yeah.

So the drinking fountains, the furniture, the hand raise, the fence is most all of it is made in our woodshop and metal shop by gardens in the later time.

So I know we've been talking for a while.

So we always ask our guests this question, and it is of course the most unfair question you could possibly ask a horticulturist.

But you know, for you, Lisa, with your incredible experience and range of knowledge and travels, we have to ask what's your favorite plant.

It could be just at this moment, it could be in general.

However you want to answer that, But we want to know what's your what's your top pick today?

Maybe I want to say right now.

Leaptrice asked bra this is not the into ruin.

It's in the gravel garden and it's about to open.

It has like little button like flowers about five and five and a half feet tall.

I love it because the monarch's nectar on it, and I grow a lot of different leatris or gay feather in the gravel garden.

Did you mean for the ruin though.

Oh, I've just been in general.

It doesn't have to be related to the ruin.

Yeah, yeah, in the ruin.

I do put a gave attenuata in the wall pockets and I love them.

And they were actually influenced by a trip to Madera where I saw I forget if it was a savaria or some succulent growing in walls and with you know, the big bouquet almost of a succulent, and so I kind of copied that idea with a gave attenuata and I plant them out in May and they stay until you know, it gets too cold.

And it is such an amazing place.

Now, you know, I feel like, Lisa, you've done such an amazing job of painting the picture of the ruin.

And you know, when when I know people who are headed to Philadelphia, they usually say, I can't wait to visit Longwood and Lisa, I know you're an alum of Longwood, which is of course amazing.

They have an incredible professional horticulture program.

But I always tell people, you know, Longwood's great, but Chanta Clear is where you should be spending your time.

Yeah.

Well, and you know, we have a lot of crossover with Longwood as well.

The students come and work, volunteer to work with us on weekends and exchange for that, I think we help subsidize their trip.

And so there's a lot of back and forth between the two and many and not only I, but other horticultures that Shanna Clear studied it Longwood and.

You're less than an hour drive apart, So why not.

You're absolutely then they're so different.

You know, Longwood's such a large, grand garden and Shannon Clear's more intimate and maybe more easily envisioned to take something and put it in your home guarden.

You know, the same idea, right.

I'm lucky to have visited in multiple seasons, and it is there's always been so many moments that have just you know, from a horticultural perspective, from a plant design perspective.

I'm really just in awe of your talent and vision and that of all of the horticulturists at Chanticleer.

Thank you.

You do an amazing job.

So let that be a recommendation for our listeners.

If you are going to Philadelphia and you only have time to visit one single garden, I would humbly recommend Chanta Clear if you can visit to you go ahead and add Long or any of the other great gardens in the area area inspiring Lisa, Thank you.

Can I just have one thing that you mentioned the visitation or we Since COVID, we have a reservation system for your car, okay, so do you check the website before you come.

And that's at most days but not all so okay.

Good to know.

So that is a good pro tip if you are driving to Chanta Clear.

Now I know what I want to leave our listeners with something so they can if they're not planning a trip to Philadelphia anytime too soon, can take a look at what you are doing.

So what is your Instagram It's etc.

E P H E D E r A all right, and that is a plant that I grow in the gravel garden.

And so you can also follow Lisa and all of the other horticulture's work at Chanticleer at Chanticleer Garden on Instagram, and Lisa, you take a great number of the photos that are shared on the social media posts.

Yes, I photographed the garden weekly and the photographs I make the content basically, and then they're used by our web guide to put on Facebook and Instagram, although some of the other we have Instagram takeovers by some of our very talented interns and other staff.

So you will run into those two well.

They are definitely worth following and so much inspiration on those accounts, whether you're looking for plants or photography or just inspiration for your next trip to visit gardens.

So Lisa, thank you so very much for your time with us in all of your amazing work at Chanticleer and sharing your talents in photography and planting design.

Well, thank you, and I look forward to seeing people come to the garden and introduce themselves to me.

I hope they do it.

Thank you Lisa, Well Stacey.

That was fantastic and I'm inspired and i can't wait to do a little folly work in my landscape.

I can't wait to see what you do.

Thank you Stacy, thank you Adriana, and thanks most of all to you for watching us on YouTube, looking for the podcast wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and listening to the radio version of our show.

Have a great week.