I am thinking of joining.

The AARP.

Later.

You are you old enough?

You can join the ARP at eighteen.

What it just focuses on people over fifty, which I'm not there yet, But if I can start getting the deals now.

Nancy, you become a grandpa.

You just come.

Around some of the deals.

What are some of the deals?

I don't know them all perfectly.

They're very loud, and I want to turn it down.

It's every year.

It's no, no soon I did that.

I don't know all the ins and outs.

I just know that I want to get into movies for like seventy percent.

I want to start yelling at kids on the street.

And I think I can do all of that, but I can do it.

For cheapers by joining the ARP off my lawn.

I want to see if you'll both join with me.

I need to know some better discounts I'm not going to get.

I need to do the calculations because I feel like they're going to have the annual fee is probably not going.

To till they get that.

So they get you.

So you're already there.

Oh yeah, do you realize that the actual tagline of AARP is ARP.

That's how they get you.

So it's perfect for it.

Builds into it.

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

I joined Triple A like a year ago, and Triple A member you go the discounts.

I was like, this is this is good to have, but mostly credit cards.

I get scared.

I'm like, it's just fifteen dollars a year A standard.

Yeah no, a standard that's a cheroche membership costs twenty dollars a year.

However, you can get a discount rate of fifteen dollars for the first year if you sign up right now for five years for seventy five dollars.

You can sign up and you really can do years when you're any.

And then anyway, what are some of the benefits.

What do you get, like benefits of joining AARP.

Let's find out, isn't the point.

That you're supposed to be old dating rewards because you're old Like it's well.

No, it's like focuses on that.

But check out benefits.

You get ARP rewards.

You get discounts at Walmart, you get discounts at the Oh, you can book everything through the AARP Travel Center.

Oh do you get like what's the percentage off you get on rental cars, hotels, cruises?

Oh my god.

Well I don't have that right at my fingertips right now.

But you get sixty five to two hundred dollars off anything from British airways.

I mean said, there's an AARP bookstore writer.

Oh okay, up to thirty five percent off base rates, from budget rent to.

Car, thirty five percent off.

Oh, fifteen percent off of Denny's, ten percent off of Outback Steakhouse.

I mean, I mean, it really should become a sponsor of our show, because we probably just increased their membership by I.

Don't I still don't believe that you can join though at at eighteen it says you can.

It says how old do you have to be?

Age and lability to join?

While a while ARP is dedicated to people over fifty, there is no minimum age to join.

People of all ages can get an air membership.

For as low as fifteen dollars for the first lumps me out.

That's like you can join the Magic Castle.

You don't have to be a magician.

Yeah, really, like I know.

Yeah, But at the same time, there's an ARP magazine and if I'm not on the cover like this in the next six months, going.

To be on the cover for sure, do you really?

Oh yeah, there's no way they'd feature in under fifty.

You never know, maybe they would.

And the cool thing is, you know you were fifty because it's people not looking at the camera.

They don't know where to look now in the new cameras, so it's like actually looking.

Off to the thing, looking right to the side.

But I'm joining.

You should join with me.

I think it'll be great.

Well, we can join the AARP tomorrow on our flight.

Yes, oh my god.

If you can teach me how to work the Wi Fi in the plane, we can totally make that work.

Yes.

Wel good to fund Meets World Danielle Fischel.

I'm right or strong, and I'm Wilfredell, the newest member of the ARP.

Hey everyone, Pod Meets World is coming to Salt Lake City, Utah.

We will be there August twenty second at the laws In Capital Theater.

Tickets are available at Pod meetsworldshow dot com.

Somebody told me the other day when I said we were going to Salt Lake City, they told me we had to check out a place called Swig.

Have you guys heard of Swings?

I have not.

Yeah, apparently it's they've got a bunch of different like drink options.

So anyway we've got we've got a fun activity for us, not alcohol.

I was gonna say yes, yeah, Tara just said dirty soda.

It's like flavored different types of soda, but probably non caffeinated because you know, yeah, you can't do that either.

But I can tell you if I have a good night in Utah, I'm going to be given somebody a dirty soda.

Oh my god, will I'm sure this wonderful.

We'll be in Salt Lake City.

Everyone Pod Meets This World August twenty second, come here will make more disgusting jokes.

Now we don't say that.

By the way, We have been to Salt Lake before for many a comic con and the people there are incredible, So I know the Treoud's gonna be amazing.

Com check out the show Whoo.

Now six and a half seasons into our rewatch, well into its home stretch, it would be difficult to find a boy Meets World perspective.

We haven't tackled yet stage managers, co stars, producers, writers, background actors, the guy who sang the theme song.

We have covered a lot of ground.

What's left an inmate from the audience Angel and Vicki Craig, the Craft serviceman who played that Stevie Nick song.

Sure, I guess we still have a ways to go.

But one point of view we were always dying to include was that of an network executive, and this week we are able to kill two birds with one stone.

He started his career writing and producing on our show Most Visible during season six and seven, when he wrote four episodes, including the recently recapped Hogs and Kisses.

But how he began on Boy Meets World and the ABC Network is a little bit of a mystery that we will hopefully get cleared up today.

And after our little show, he'd complete a very rare evolution, going on to become one of the most important TV executives of the two thousands, helping craft the unstoppable CBS lineup as senior vice President, helping create shows that have dominated the ratings ever since.

And if that wasn't enough, he'd then take his talents to a completely different Hall of Fame TV franchise.

Yeah, that's right, he'd work hand in hand with Dick Wolf at his production company, helping kill off unsuspecting victims then investigate their deaths.

I mean not literally just on TV.

Yeah, and so now, well, not only do we get to hear about that writer's room during season six and seven, we also get some details about what being a network executive is actually like.

They hold the future of your favorite show in their hands, Yet we know very little about the process that decides these fates.

Today we hope to learn a little bit more about it.

So welcome to the podcast a real twofer, writer, producer, and studio executive, David Brownfield.

Yeah.

Wow, I haven't even opened my mouth, that's quite I'm welcome, all.

Right, thank you very much, thank you for being here.

When your name appeared on our show, it brought back a wave of memories, albeit very many foggy ones.

But we are so excited that you agreed to come on the podcast.

So thank you.

Our know, our our producers had to do a little deep diving to find you.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not I'm not impossible to find, but I'm not I don't make myself readily available either.

You know, we had to do a little bit of digging away.

So let's start with asking you what got you into what got you to Hollywood and into the TV business?

You are?

Were?

You were a network executive right.

I'm born and raised in La Okay.

I've been here all my life.

I started out basically as a sports writer.

I produced the pregame show for the Lakers for five years, so I really was not on the radar screen of doing anything in network television.

I basically started out with the goal of someone paying me to watch sports, which my mom said, you're out of your mind.

That's not happening.

And I was able to do it.

So I did that for five years and I really liked it.

It was an amazing job, but I kind of got tired of athletes are like actors.

Professional athletes are like actors with one huge exception.

They don't have the years of rejection behind them that actors do, so they're incredibly coddled people.

I mean, things have dramatically changed, but even so, at its core, an NBA player today is kind of similar to the way an NBA player was when I was with them.

So I got tired of chasing moround.

It was great, and then I just happened to be dating a woman at the time whose father was friends with the head of Paramounts Network TV division, and he said they are looking to bring someone on in current series, and I said, I don't know what that is, but no one's offering me anything better.

So I basically started there and then that got me to ABC in nineteen ninety three.

Wow, okay, so you started in a at ABC in ninety three, the same year Boy Meets World started.

Yeah, I started ABC in ninety three and I wasn't even it's weird.

I wasn't even supposed to be covering Boy Meets World.

But the woman who was on the pilot left and so they basically said, oh, we have the show, and then it was handed over to me.

Because you know, basically, when you're a current executive, when you're one of say five or six current executives your responsible, you're the point person for four to five shows.

That I was just going to ask, So you have four to five different shows at a time on.

Your You have four to five different shows at a time, and there can be companies and dramas.

Mostly most times it's a combination.

Can't have someone doing too many comedies back in the day when there were all these sitcoms, because obviously the shooting schedules are conflicting with and that sort of thing.

So at that point, I think Boy Meet's World was probably my only comedy But yeah, so I wasn't around for the pilot of the show, but I was around from I covered the show for the first three seasons wow, and then in the fourth season I was still at ABC.

This is my last year at ABC.

I was there for four years ninety three to ninety seven.

I started to do more development, so I wasn't on the show in year four and then in year five, and then at the end of year four Boy Meets Twelve.

I left ABC to go be a sitcom writer.

So I was a sitcom writer for uh so that would have been year five of Boy Meets Twelve.

Then actually, Michael Lot this a long winded again, this is great helps just movings a look.

Anyway, Michael offered me a job writing on Boy Meets World for season five when I left, and I was which was incredibly generous.

I was also offered a job working on a show called Over the Top, which you never heard of, and Over the Top ran for twelve episodes.

And this was not based on the Stevens the Sylvester.

Completely different.

This was Tim Curry, Annie Pots and an unknown actor named Steve Carrell my cast, because I don't know if you remember, but it's wor watching this documentary.

The last year I was at ABC, Dana Carvey did a sketch show.

It's called The Dana Carvey Show.

And there's a Hulu documentary on a call Too Funny to Fail, and if you haven't seen it, it's really good.

And in that company was Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert among other people, and Robert Smigel, who you know went on to created Triumph the Insult Doll comic, was head writer on the show.

So they signed holding deals with Correll, and I'm not sure if CBA someone signed a deal with Colbert, and so Correll was on over the Top, playing this insane role, and like most new shows, you know, it burned hot and bright and then burned out.

And so after about we shot twelve, they are at five.

And then I went back out as an unemployed writer, and Michael offered me a job again prior to year six of Boy Meets World, and I was like, well, I'm insane if I don't take it now.

A second time.

That's how I wound up on Boy Meets World writing on the staff for your six and.

Soe wow, yeah, okay that uh wait, The Dana Carvey Show.

There's that famous clip that is so funny where the night it premiered, to advertise it, they cut from a home improvement clip of the possibility of Jonathan Taylor Thomas finding out he has cancer and it's like, you hear that, you know, I can't die, Dad, I can't die.

And he's like, You're not gonna die.

We're going to get you through this.

And now the Dana Carvey Show, and it's the funniest transmission and they're showing Steve Carell and all the actors this transition and everybody is just losing it.

It's so yeah, you you should go check that out.

It's great.

Yeah.

I want to ask you a little bit more detail because we have never interviewed a network executive on the show and and and it's kind of a total mystery to us, So I'd love to know more.

Before you became, before you went into development, can you describe to me what your job was when you oversee four or five shows and one of those Boy Meets World.

What's your what's the main part of your job, what kind of notes are you giving, what are you looking for describe your job for us at ABC.

I mean, well, I would say being a current executive on a show depends on where the show is in its kind of like development process.

I mean, you really, if you're talking about a show in the first two or three seasons, you're really talking about kind of slowly but surely developing the show and dealing with the fact that most shows, very few shows come in are handed to you fully baked, right.

I Mean, what I remember about the beginning of Boy Meets World was the premise of the show was what's it like to have your teacher as your next door neighbor?

That was kind of like the central premise of the show.

And I think we all realized fairly early on the first season that while that was nice, that could not you You're not going to be able to build one hundred episodes on that premise, right, And so a lot of it is just you know, kind of as I used to say, it's too bad that television shows aren't like sports franchises where you get practice games, like get five or six games that don't count, because what generally happens in these shows is, you know, it's trial and error and a lot of times you spend time writing to things that you realize, oh, man, those two characters are really not great in a scene together, and we really shouldn't put them in scenes anymore.

But by the time we've already showed five or six episodes, you know, and there's only so much reshooting that can be done.

So you're really kind of trying to lean into what's really working, especially in the first I don't know, one and a half seasons of a show, and trying to avoid what isn't and also realizing we need to open up new avenues, we find other areas that characters can explore, we may need to bring in other characters.

But it's also a real it's difficult because you're producing episodes at the same now you're producing episodes at the same time they're airing.

It's really only a limited amount of time to make change, to make fundamental changes.

Because you make me make some great fundamental change that's not going to be on the air for another six weeks in this scenario.

So that's kind of what happened with Weeman's role, right, I mean, because I went back and I looked at the I looked at a few episodes of the first season.

Then I looked at the second season.

The second season is kind of a complete reboot, completely watched a new show, completely out of necessity, because as brilliant as Bill Daniels is and was, he can't carry that.

I mean, look at Home Improvement, the scene with uh Tim and Wilson right the next door neighbor.

That was one scene in every show, that was the storyline of every episode.

So and so for a current executive, they're going to have say four or five shows, comedies and dramas, and they're basically they're reading everything from the initial one pager of what the story is to the outline, which is I used to say, is basically the script but in print form building a house, it's your construction plans.

And then you're reading the script through various drafts, and then you're looking at dailies.

If you're working on a drama, you're going to run throughs and tapings if you're working on a comedy.

And it's a pretty cool job.

I mean, what's really cool about it is is you really get to kind of like look under the hood of shows.

You know, I was a current exec for how long was I one well, I guess.

At ABC, I was one for three years, and then I was a CBS for four years as a as a strictly currentit EGA again doing kind of the same thing, mostly on dramas then and then I was made head of the department.

So at that point the job changes.

Now you're responsible for your twenty to twenty five shows, and as I used to say, I'm responsible for all of those shows, and I'm responsible for none of those shows.

Because you're not the person there.

You only have a certain amount of time in your day, and you quickly realize that you've got to focus on the shows that are in their first and second years, and you've got to train a staff so that they can handle the day to day stuff.

But you know the bigger picture on something, you know, Like when I was at CBS.

Once CSI got past year four, I was like, I want to know the big arcs.

I want to know the big problems.

But you, if I've trained the executive right, you're the day to day person on the you know what I mean.

So you've just got to give me a heads up if I'm going to get a phone call or tell me you need to call this person and say something, deliver good news or deliver bad news.

It varies.

So, but my time at ABC, honestly, I remember it really fondly because if you think about it, in four years I was there, you had I mean, you had Seminole Television, you had your band Home Improvement in comedy, and then you I just remember, and you had Ellen come Out.

And then on the maddic side, you had My so called Life, which, though it didn't run very long, is still pollential show.

And you had like the gold standard of cop shows in NYPD Blue.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's just in four years I was there, and then you also had, like you guys, you also had Full House and Family Metters, which you know, full House itself invented a whole genre of show.

And you had TGIF.

So it was a law packed into a short amount of time and very successful, which always helps.

Yes, that definitely helps.

You mentioned you said you're you're responsible at times for delivering good news or bad news.

Was there ever a time that you can remember, especially first season in Boy Meets World going into second where there was talk of this isn't working, We're not going to pick it up.

I don't remember that.

I really don't, but I do remember going we need a new showrunner.

We need to bring somebody in, and we need to Michael's really busy, and we need to bring somebody in who can kind of I mean, reinvent the show is too strong, because there was definitely enough, There was enough of the DNA that I don't think the show was ever in danger being canceled.

In fact, it was interesting because I was listening to you.

I've listened to a couple of other episodes with the writers, and I think you guys have this perception that you were on the bubble every year, which is definitely not true.

I can't.

I can only say for the time I was there, and this is kind of insight baseball, but you were kind of certainly on tgif you brought a little bit of an island in the sense that you were surrounded most of the years, at least for three or four of them, you were surrounded by family matters, step by step and hanging with mister Cooper.

Now, one of those shows have in common in addition to Full House, they're Warner Brothers shows.

Right, So Warner Brothers owned a lot of ABC schedule.

It's ironic that they owned a lot of CBS's schedule when I was doing too, and so picking up a show with the exceptions of shows that are just you know, unquestionable pickups, which you know like Home Improvements, Full House, Roseanne.

If you pick up one show, there's a lot of other shows that are kind of in the same category.

They're like, hey, wait, where's my pickup?

So I feel like, at least I don't remember Boy Meets Burl being a questionable pickup, certainly from year I don't even think it was from year one to year two, but definitely not in years two to three, three to four.

It was just a matter of don't pick up something on its own, you pick up something ass So it's also a better announcement.

We're picking up the entire tgif lineup right.

So yeah, I don't think it.

I don't think it was really touch and going to be honest, I don't even remember when I was on staff of the show there being that big a question about whether we were going to go from year six to or seven.

Man, wow, I still think we're going to be canceled.

Yeah, but as actors that's kind of the lie.

But I don't remember.

I'm not saying it never was the case, but I don't.

I think there was a lot of pressure on who the showrunner was going to be.

The fact that David Kendall had worked in the ABC family for a long time on Growing Pains a huge asset that he had done it before.

They weren't going to hire someone who hadn't done it before, you know what I mean.

And I don't think Ed John want My memory is that Ed and John didn't want to stay on, and I think also they wouldn't have not because they weren't really good writers.

And I actually built friendships with both those guys.

Still did John periodically, but I don't think they wanted it, and I think ABC was just like, look, we need to bring somebody in who knows the DNA of the long running ABC show.

And so they got David, who remains a friend to this day and was a you know, was a rock, which is what you need.

Absolutely, we love David Kendall here, we do we do.

Yeah.

Well, And it also makes perfect sense because I remember Michael telling me one of the things not only was boy Mes World pitched as a kid living next door to his teacher, but it was also pitched as growing pains from the point of.

View of the middle child.

Correct, Yes, so, yeah, that makes sense that you bring in Kendall and it's just a perfect fit at that point.

Exactly exactly so.

And you just even had to build out the cast because as if you look at the beginning of year two, the beginning of year two doesn't look like you know, the beginning of like like year four.

It's a it's a challenge.

It's also a challenge when in your show.

And as much as I love them both, the parents don't really play a substantial role in the show the way they do in most other TGIF or family shows.

You know what I mean.

They're round, but you're not building regular stories around them as this as the driver of the story.

We did it a few you did it a few times, and I love story.

I used to love stories, especially built around Rusty because you know, it's such a veteran, reliable actor and could do anything.

But that's not what the show really, that's not where the bread and butter of the show was, right.

It was more of a school show.

In school show, you know, more driven by by you guys, and you know, especially in the first season, I always used to feel like, Okay, the story really begins when Feenie enters in a weird way, you know what I mean, what's his connection going to be?

Which was great but not enough?

And so you know, that's that's a lot about why why a lot of shows fail because you shoot a pilot and you're like this is great, Oh my god, and then you start to go, oh, wait a minute, and you really realize that when you work on big hit show.

I was like, I remember working on Big Bank, Big Bank.

I was at CBS for Big Bang Theory, and you know, the three of them were obviously fantastic, but I remember I think it was the end of the first season and there was a scene where it was only the three women because Mine came on I think end of her season.

It was just Kaylee and Miam and Melissa and they were there was a scene between the three of them.

I'm like, wow, I don't really miss the guys at all.

And I'm like, okay, so and now we've got, you know, counting the guys, we've got seven places to go for comedy.

Yeah, that's when you know you you have a show that, if you don't mess it up, is going to be around for a long time now.

That show.

Yeah, it also changed constantly because the Big Bang Theory was the show after Boy Meets World that I must have gotten nine different versions of that script to audition for year after year after year.

It just kept coming back.

I was like, Big Bang Theory again.

Didn't they make this last year?

It's like it must have been three three pilot seasons in a row where there was a different version of the Big Bank Theory that they were trying to cast.

They tried to get that show on the air forever.

Yeah, I was amazing.

Well, the original pilot of Big Bank Theory didn't make it on the air.

The original pilot didn't have Kaylee sou so they ended up recasting and then the show got on the air.

What do you remember from not only your time at ABC but also your time at CBS.

What's the show that you remember that you were like, this show is brilliant, this is going to go forever, and then it didn't get picked up or that's the one that got away for you?

Wow, I mean I remember shows that didn't get didn't go that I felt like, I mean, I thought they were really well done, but I I understood why they didn't last.

Like we did a show called swing Town when we were at it when I was at CBS.

That was a period show set in the sixties, and it had a phenomenal pilot, but I realized that it wasn't going to be Everyone's the Tea.

It was a period again, it's a period show.

There are certain shows that I worked on that I felt like were like, were had good results, deserved better, Like I felt like The New Adventures of Old Christine, which is Juliuie drive this to show.

That show ran, I think for five seasons, but it never got a gigantic audience, and it deserved it because it was an incredibly funny show.

And I think had it been it, had it been on after Everybody Loves Raymond, I think that show could have run ten years instead of five because she was just so She's just brilliant.

She's brilliant.

She's just brilliant.

And I used to remember, like I used to go to run throughs and then I would go to another run through where you know, I'd have to sit through soch actors who had like a thimbleful of talent compared to her, And this is kind of even more tortured.

I'd have to think about that.

I mean, I don't know, you know, I mean, I so called life obviously deserves a longer run than it had.

Most shows, I mean, this is kind of hard and producers, most shows that I think don't make it don't make it for a pretty good reason because it's really really difficult.

And also when you when you've got when you had so many shows on, you know, and you needed like lead characters that really could command an audience, especially in a drama, and there were not as many people who would nowhere near as many people who were willing to do television.

Yeah in those days.

Yeah, that's true.

I want to know more about your relationship, your working relationship with Michael because the fact that Michael then offered you a job writing.

Michael does not make those offers willy nilly, Like he really respects intelligence, and you guys must have had a good relationship and he must have really respected the notes you gave as a network executive in order for him to want you on staff.

What was working with Michael like on the network side.

Like, you know, Michael was really passionate, which I always appreciate, and I also felt like, you know, my job is to as I used to say, my job is to advocate for the show.

But not and I used to say this to all the executives to work with me, like, don't fall in love with your show, because then you can't see the problems with it.

You know what I mean.

And it's not perfect, nothing's really perfect.

But you also want to be able to point out here's what I like, here's what I don't like.

I also think that there are I think Michael knew I was a real advocate for the show.

He also knew I wasn't afraid to express my opinion.

And I also think there's certain writers and Michael is one of these, And you learn very quickly like there are certain writers who want you to express what the problem is, but they're not interested in you offering the fix.

They're interested in you going this is what's not working for me, okay, and but don't tell me how to fix it.

And Michael was also generally what my experience with him was, Michael no sessions.

Michael went first to basically go here's what I here's here's what's not working.

You know.

So those sessions with Michael was Michael was doing a lot of most of the talking.

Most of the time.

He was right.

I also feel like there are certain people who no sessions can get very, very long, and they also can there's a lot of people in the room.

There's too many people in the room.

There's a lot of people in the room who are there but not talking.

And so what I generally did was I would usually follow up with a phone call.

I mean, this is to all executives, but I would follow up a little bit later and just hit on the two or three things that that I thought were most important and be as clear as possible, because I think the worst thing you can do to a writer is confuse them.

Yeah.

Yeah, I used to say, like my mantra was, I'm not asking you to agree with my notes.

I'm asking you to understand them.

And the advantage of working on a sitcom is is you have more than one bite at the apple you're going to Plus if something's really not working, you learn if something's really not working at the table, like a story's not working, don't note it because it's going to change dramatically.

So your notes are going to probably be completely irrelevant in twenty four hours.

But I also so I felt like, you know, it's being a current exactly on the show is it's it's at least sixty percent about do I want to see this person in my face five times a week?

Yeah?

I got to walk onto that stage three times a week.

And so it's like pissing off your roommate the first day of college.

You don't want to do that.

And definitely the hardest part I would say is, you know this is the first you know, the first twenty five I'm even longer, like say thirty thirty episodes where you're really trying to figure out what's working and what's not and not no one really has all the answers to everything, and you're making a lot of mistakes, and you're making a lot of mistakes on the fly, and so I just think you got to be no one can be sure of much of anything.

And I think he liked the fact that I was an advocate without being too pushy and I was honest.

And then I mean he read something I wrote, too, because I wrote a spec script just because someone said you should try doing that.

And I fully think that almost every executive should have to sit in front of a blank screen and realize what a horror that is.

Yes, and I was encouraged by people, and I kind of had a Again, I had a slightly different entree because I wrote a specs mad About You spec that I gave to Bruce Helferd, who was Harry Show, another show I covered at ABC, and for notes.

I just gave it to him for notes, and he gave me notes and said, but you have a lot of potential on this.

We're going to give you an episode to write next year.

This is year one and two of Drew And I said, that's really, really nice.

And in my mind, I'm like, look, I'm not telling anybody about this because it's likely not going to happen because they're going to fall behind and they're the last thing they're going to want is some new bee writing a script.

And come December, Bruce said, okay, right after the first of the year, you're coming in and we're going to break your story.

So I had this episode of Mad About You that I had written, and I gave it to Michael, and Michael read it and liked it enough, so I think he knew that I was serious and I was going to leave being an executive to write, so yeah, So we definitely had a very different relationship than I think anybody.

In fact, there were times I was thinking about the writer's room where I would like I would have groan about something or just go oh, come on really, and and I think people were taken aback, like whoa and Michael would you know there was a line where I think he would give me a look like okay, I know we had this history, but back off.

But he also respected me, so so yeah, I mean, but again like he's he's responsible for you know, in a lot of ways my having a writing career for three years.

Are talking about going into season two and what a total shock and change it was from season one, like a full new reboot.

Do you remember there being any conversations about Lee Norris and Mincus coming back?

And because we've talked, we've now interviewed so many different people and talked about where that decision came from to let him go after season one, and we've heard everyone has a different, slightly different perspective on it.

And so one area we've never asked is somebody from ABC, do you remember those conversations about not bringing Lee Norris back?

I doped, Okay, my guess is and knowing that people who were involved internally, was he his character was on the broader side.

Yeah, And I just think that probably at that point they were looking for like, let us let's let's try and be as grounded as possible.

The other thing is we're moving to another school we were already taking.

We've already got four people, the three of you and Ben who are going to be there, and we want to introduce two or three more characters.

Right, how much room is there?

You know what I mean?

So I think I think it was probably a combination of both.

And I also don't think it's not like Lee was a breakout character on the show.

I mean, I definitely remember what episode Danielle did you did you four?

I completely remember that table reading really and I completely remember the I don't know if you'd call her girl or woman who was there at the table and going she's just not strong enough.

Okay, I.

Remember you being really good, and I remember saying, well, why not try her?

She's right there.

Yeah.

So, because I know there's been all sorts of versions of that, I just remember I remember sitting at that table afterwards and going, yeah, it's not going to work.

I don't remember if I don't remember if she got a run through or not.

But I remember, but she was there.

She had a she had a table read and a full day of rehearsal.

Right, right, right right, And obviously the stakes were super high and you were you were in the right place at the right time.

Yeah, and so but yeah, I definitely remember that.

Wow, wow, so funny.

Interesting.

All right, Well that was my other question.

My other question was, do you remember do you remember that when I came onto the show.

Totally, totally I was not around for Cardolini.

Oh you know that I missed that whole part.

Yeah, because I was season five, right, Yeah, that's when you were writing for another show.

So what was joining the writer's room then in season six?

Like, were they all having fun?

Was it?

Was it a fun room?

How would you describe it?

Yeah?

It was incredibly fun.

I mean, it's funny.

Because I went back and watched the four episodes that my name's on, I remember, honestly, so little about I remember these random things you remember.

I remember in the B episode we offered Ronnie Cox the role.

Remember Ronnie Cox, the actor from Term.

He was in Terminator, not Terminator, he was RoboCop.

Yes, yeah, and he wrote this really sweet note and he couldn't do it.

But uh, the writer's room was great.

I remember so many specifics.

I literally I could if you if we went into the room, I could tell you where everybody was sitting.

Oh god, did everyone have like assigned seats?

Yes?

Absolutely, yeah, but that's true about most writers.

It just happens, you know, people sitting.

It was a I mean I had been in you know, a few writers room at that point because I had worked on two or three shows prior, and I'd also helped friends on pilots.

It was a big room, kind of too big in a way in my opinion, in the sense that when ends up happening, the bigger the room, the the fewer people speak, you know what I mean regularly.

But then we also at times would break the room down to get when we got behind, and then to have two or three rooms and then more people speak, which is really really good.

But yeah, it was an incredibly kind room, like there was very little tension and respectful and you know, I remembered just that I used to say, like these are you know, you spend so much time with these people.

I don't think there was a restaurant in town where if you handed me a menu at that point, I couldn't have ordered for everybody that.

Cuckaroo.

Was Cuckaroo still around by season six?

Yeah, I think it may have been, But that wasn't one of our gigantic go to places for my I mean we didn't.

Also we also we ordered dinner a fair amount of time.

But our hours on that show were generally speaking, I think, pretty okay.

I mean, I worked.

I came from a show where we did a lot of late late, late night right which I couldn't I just couldn't handle which but over the top we were got late nights and over the top, and my I just can't function that way, you know what I mean?

Like I think that, I mean, most people will tell you that whatever's pitched after about ten o'clock at night doesn't shot.

You end up reading it the next day, like thinking that.

We were thinking we wanted to go home.

That's what we're think exactly so.

But you know, but writers rooms are odd places.

Yeah, to this they remain odd places.

They're now it's been made even odder because of Zoom.

But but yeah, it was incredibly a really nice group of people.

It was also interesting enough.

It was a real wide range of people age wise, because we had I think Carlos was the youngest and yeah, probably I don't know, he's got probably like in his mid.

Twenties, and Erica Montalfa was in our mid twenties.

Yeah, and then we also have people, you know, who are quite quite a bit older, seeing a lot more and I was kind of in between.

So yeah, I mean, and at that point Bob was running the show Tishlar and you know, Bob was sweetest, sweetest man in the world.

Yes, and so no, it was.

It was a lot of fun.

And I would say that like whether there were only a couple of points where that I remember where things got a little blue, you know, a little too blue for people and that, but I remember at least people would speak up and go, hey, hey, hey, hey guys, can we can we pull it back a little bit, you know what I mean.

Like it was definitely not what I would consider to be a rough room, and I don't remember it as being like abusive at at all.

And also I think if there was tension, people would get up and walk around.

You know.

That's a big difference now between now and the zoom thing is is like, I think it's a lot easier in zoom rooms because I have friends who write on mostly in zoom rooms, and I think it's much much easier for resentments to build up.

Yea.

And also just the distractions are a whole different thing, you know, Like I mean people texting while they're on zoom or five chats, and it's generally speaking, I think it's I mean, it's more efficient question if you run it efficiently, but in terms of the camaraderie.

Not the same, not ye close.

Plus also, if you think about it, writers generally speaking are more solitary and quieter people, and now you're sticking a camera in their face.

Yeah, all the time.

And even like you said, just the idea that if something was getting tense or somebody needed a moment, you would get up and walk around, but you could still like keep eyes on that person or go out in the hallway, whereas like now with your computer, if you get up and walk away from your computer, you're essentially no longer in the meeting, right, But you can't get that, like, Okay, I just need to walk around for a little bit.

I need to stretch my legs, like you'd have to take your computer with you.

Yeah.

Completely, But I mean the bigger thing is is like, if you're having a problem with someone in the writer's room and you're in person, that can't go on very long, right like you basically are luck.

Look, we're going to be in this room.

So I may not love you, but I'm not going to go some whereas on Zoom.

I just think it's a matter of yeah, of course it can go on.

Yeah, certain cases.

I'm not even in the same city as you.

Right.

Well, we recently rewatched or watched, I guess for the first time for some of us, your episode season six, hogs Kisses, which is a wild episode that has Tapanga filming a college promo and hitting a relationship roadblock when she kisses Sean in the video.

Do you remember how this idea came about?

Did you pitch the idea?

Who came up with the idea that Tapanga and Sean would make out for the art of the college video?

I definitely didn't pitch this idea.

I don't know.

There are certain episodes, a couple of episodes that I wrote where I feel like I came in with the idea.

I don't this is where my memory fails.

The specifics of these episodes.

Yea, they don't really I don't entirely remember.

And I think that there may be have been ideas about that, maybe there was a germ about idea that throughout that I threw out that it changed, but I don't remember too much about the specifics there to be honest.

So I wish I could say I did.

I know you're not a fan of the episode, and I completely don't blame you.

It's weird looking back at this stuff.

Like I said, the memories for me are the room, yeah, and the day to day as opposed to as the specifics of any episode.

Yeah.

We talk about it a million times that it's unbelievable how much our memories are not about the shooting of the show or the episode or the lines.

It's the stuff that happened at craft service.

It's the stuff that you know, the conversations we had in school, or it's those moments that we remember way more than, like you're saying, the specifics of the show.

So some character stuff, I want to know, do you remember what your take on generally on Corey and Tapanga was, what your thoughts were on them as a couple.

I mean, I like them as a couple.

I thought everything was happening in an obviously kind of like way too accelerated way.

But I also think that because I remember there being a lot of debate about should they get married or not?

And it's so young, you know what I mean, And I think everyone was kind of it was a point like, well, what can we do to this, what can what can happen in this relationship that hasn't already happened, So it's it wasn't mirroring reality obviously, and so I think we felt like that was the next step for them to take.

I mean, they were incredibly appealing as a couple, and so and that's what viewers really a lot of the viewers really kind of like we're responding to.

I also remember at the time and looking back, that we didn't know what to do with with Jack and Eric and uh calling Rachel Rachel.

Yeah, And so I think we were completely at sea, and I think the episodes reflect that.

Honestly.

Do you do you remember when they when when you came on season six, did they tell you already that they were adding a new character or were you there when they were kind of debating or deciding to put Rachel on the show.

I think she was on the show already.

She was, Well, I shouldn't say that, I should say that they were the character was coming on.

I think I remember Maitland being cast.

But I want to I want to go back for a minute too, your time as as an executive.

I'm so curious back then, besides ratings, how did you get feedback?

Like how did I mean you you you guys had your internal meetings about these characters are popping, But were you getting letters from fans?

Like how would you get that that feedback?

Now it's obviously online, but back then, how would you know?

Yeah, I mean they definitely got They got kind of like, you know, viewer responses online and how they could tell how how storylines play.

There was also focus group testing, obviously with a much bigger thing back then in terms of you know, where you'd focus group test a few episodes a year to see how people were responding.

I mean, also too, it's interesting is that like so many more people were watching network television just across the board.

Ye, so you know, a show could stay on the air for a long time and draft off the show in front of it in a way that you never were able to before.

And I think that so it was probably a combination of the It was the ratings.

It was, yeah, you got audience feedback, You got tons of audience feedback, and you were reading like like what people were responding to.

It took it took longer, but but yeah, I think that's kind of what it was.

And also, you know, certain shows, there were certain things where shows started humming along and you're like, Okay, look, the show's doing well creatively, we're really happy with it, which happened to boy moved to a no run, no show run seven years.

When you're not and you're not creatively happy, you know what I mean.

So so you get to a certain point.

I mean, there's when a show runs as long as it is.

I always feel like the sweet spot for a show is almost like episode like thirty five too, like fifty five, because it's kind of like you're past what doesn't work, You've made all those mistakes, but you haven't gone through everything yet, know what I mean, And and so that's really great.

And then you know, with most shows, you get to about you know, fifty to fifty five and You're like, Okay, we gotta we gotta start looking for something else here.

And that was the challenge with Corny into Panga, right, because what else to do with them?

I mean, the Shawn episode, to your point, was probably because okay, look, let's we've never done an episode where Sean came between Corny and to Panga and that would flip Corey out, So that's at least.

Funny, right exactly, So.

That's probably where we were at that point.

Do you remember what the strangest possible storyline that you heard pitched in the room was for either six or seven?

God?

I mean we did or didn't do either.

We did the Drag Show, which was pretty strange.

Is that we have is that with Eric and Jack.

And Sean were women or was it Eric that was in season We've done them both.

We did it season four.

We had Chick Like Me, which actually is.

Pretty probably you guys Jack, that was pretty nuts.

The I'm trying to think of what else?

What was the episode where you guys you and that was weird?

The episode were Quinta Panga went to some Caribbean That wasn't That wasn't good.

It's interesting now in terms of like the things you can't do that you could do back then, you know what I mean about all shows in terms of some of the sexism, Yeah, and the racism that you just cannot you cannot you couldn't do today, you know, so very much of a different time because I watch these episodes like Wow, that was like, of course that wasn't even close to the line.

But our show could hardly be called a controversial show, you know what I mean.

And we never had standards and practice issues on the show like we did on many other shows that I worked on.

So it's really it's kind of it's interesting in that respect.

Did you have a boy Meets World character you liked writing for the most?

Eric?

No question?

Will.

It is just I mean, you all are amazingly talented, but we'll just yep.

Will's blessing and his curses that he could make anything funny, anything, and that's a that, like I said, that truly gift.

But it's also for a writer, it's kind of like, oh, whatever, just put it in.

We're running out of time, and that's I know.

You guys have other people who did you read who the table reads?

Where we That was very strange reading doing a table read of the writers of you guys was a very strange thing, and I didn't particularly like the idea because I was like, no joke should die because the actor didn't have a chance at it.

But I always read Will's Park Oh cool.

Yeah, so, but yeah, that was a bizarre process and I was kind of like, I didn't want to make I never believed in making too many changes to the jokes just based on that.

I mean, it comes with the story, it's you know, but I don't.

I don't think you need a table read of writers to know whether her story's working or not.

Well, you ended up writing four episodes in total, two and season six, two and season seven and stayed with us till the end of the show.

And then, as you mentioned, you found yourself as the vice president of CBS then senior vice president, two very high level positions over thirteen years within the company.

Uh, did you ever buy any Michael Jacobs shows when you were at CBS?

Did you ever work with anyone from your time at Boy Meets World again?

After you left?

Michael never pitched the show?

Well, I was never.

I don't know if Michael ever pitched the show to CBS.

I was in current.

I wasn't in development.

It wasn't.

But I always used to say, if you don't think the first first year and maybe in the second year of a show is development, then you've never done development, you know, because the development department a lot of times it's like they handed off to you and you're like, oh, you guys really had fun doing one episode, Now we have to do there's some problems here, you know what I mean, you handed us off a Collagy baby in most cases.

So let me think I worked I never worked with Laura and Patty were on I think a couple of shows that dramas that I worked around, but no, not not comedies, not comedies.

So no, I mean then people may have come in and pitched stuff.

I'm trying to think of who else.

Barbie may have come in and pitched something, but not to the point where I actually was on on sets with them or giving notes to any of them.

I never had to deal with that.

What do you, curiously, what do you think from the executive side of the Slow Painful Death of the American Sitcom?

You know, I think it's well, I think there's it's kind of the slow painful death of scripted television, and there's kind of as far as the sitcom is concerned, because there's been post War Meets World, there was another rise in another fall of you know, comedy.

I think that it's a combination of things.

I think that there there's only there were from a from a cost perspective, the best writers were far more interested in doing single cameras than they weren't doing multi cameras.

I think multi camera had to stink about it kind of renewed to think about it that.

I think now has has shifted a little bit, and people multi camera is a cheaper form, so people want to come back to it.

But I don't know.

I think now it's a bigger issue of just you know, there's if they can have cheaper programming, they're going to take it.

And so it's difficult because you there's just not space.

Even if there were eight phenomenal multicams.

I think putting on a reality show or investing in sports is a better bang for your buck for a lot of the for the certainly the broadcast networks.

So you know, I definitely think there was a time.

I mean, when boy meets Not when I've started on Boy Meets world.

If you look at the schedules of the networks, there were probably seventy five percent more comedies on than at the end of Voi nets World, like just in a year period.

Now, that was that was too much.

There were too many comedies on, and the talent pool was spread really really thin because again going back to like the idea of at that point, a lot of people were still still thought it was an insult to do television, so to have and and with a sitcom you've got to have a lead obviously, or or two people who are driving most of the stories and that people fall in love with.

And so the talent pool was stretched just way, way, way too thin.

And you know, a lot of comics were given you know, you look, comics were given shows based on nothing.

You know, they were based on I shouldn't say based on nothing.

They were they had huge reputations as comics.

But you know, you talk about a show like Drew Carrey, you know, Drew was an amazing, great stand up but if you go back and watch that show, he's surrounded by really funny people, yes, who've got you know, who've got years of improv experience behind me and guest actors who are really really strong, so they're buying time for him to ease into the form.

And that was the case with not enough shows.

They're just we're enough people who are kind of like supporting leads or you know, friends is lightning in a bottle.

It's like like big Bang theory, you're not going to get five or six really really funny people when the cast, when everybody's desperately trying to cast.

So I think now, I mean to me, now is a great time for more sitcoms to be produced.

It's just a matter of there's got to be a desire to do it, and linear television obviously is being really really challenged right now by the streamers.

Yes, so we're in a period of contraction.

But I also think that there's a place, if there is a way to do it in a more cost efficient way, more sitcoms will get on the air.

It's just a matter of how do you do it, you know, cheaper and and we're also at a point where anybody can create content, so that's also part of it too, Right.

I have a thirteen year old daughter, so the way she consumes content is completely different than the way I do, and that Genie's not going back in the bottle, So it's now a far more complicated answer than just, hey, put more sitcoms on.

You know for sure.

I want to ask you about one other job you had, content executive and a producer for Dick Wolf Entertainment, one.

Of the most d done done Sorry, my favorite, Calm down, I can't, I can't.

It's Law Order, one of the most successful brands in TV history, the team behind every Law and Order and all the best crime shows.

Basically, was that a close Was that a company you had worked closely with at CBS?

No, I'd never worked Honestly, I don't know that I ever worked on a Dick Wolf show before I got that job, because Dick Wolf shows were all on NBC, okay when I was at ABC.

Or he may have tried to develop a show at ABC or CBS while I was there, but I don't think so.

It was all the shows were all NBC, so an FBI.

The fbis were developed and aired at CBS long after I was gone.

Because I left CBS as an executive in twenty thirteen, I had a production deal for three years.

That's those shows then, and they came on even after that because I think FBI is going into like as seventh season or something.

So it was a really fascinating experience.

I mean, I fortunately came into that job with the background of working on long running franchises like CSI and CIS, so I understood the kind of you know, and I mean this in a completely positive way, factory mentality, like this is our brand, this is what we do.

Yes, we deviate a little bit at times, but we know what we know, what works, and so just a phenomenal machine.

Also, what was what was different for me is that all his shows, none of the shows shoot in LA So in order to build relationships I had to get on a plane and go to Chicago for all the Chicago shows or New York for and I did.

I did very very little on Law and Order.

Wasn't around.

Actually, Law and Order was rebooted the year after I left.

It was being rebooted as I left, and SVU was going into its twenty fifth season.

So it was very, very nice that I got this all these all of a sudden.

It was almost impossible to not see my name on network television.

It was everywhere everywhere I turn, and there you are.

I can't watch a single murder without seeing your.

Name right right, and then that's just kind of like a perk that that executives get a Wolf to get a credit on screen, which I always laughed at because I was so intricately involved in so many shows at CBS and I RA and I rightfully never got a credit because again it's not you know what I mean.

But the first thing I did when I saw my name and I was like every producer, I talked to him like, I promise you, I'm not taking a dime out of your budget.

It's not costing you a dime to have my name on the screen, you know what I mean?

Because Wolf Is is a family, a real family of people who've worked together for a long long time, and the editors who've been there forever.

And then that's part of the reason why the those shows are so well done.

So a person comes in, you really do feel like a guest.

But everybody was really, really nice.

And I was involved in kind of like the development of Organized Crime, which now the Chris Maloney Show which is now on Peacock, and then with FBI most wanted that show and them, and now those two shows that were canceled FBI must wanted an FBI international.

I was involved in the development of those two shows, very involved in FBI and the Chicago shows again to varying degrees.

The nice thing about Wolf, though, there was a lot of the writer's offices are there's two big buildings that maybe he has another by now, but there were two big buildings that where all the and the post production was done, actually three because post was in a whole other area, and the writers, a lot of the writers were there, and that was really nice because I got to hang out because Wolf.

Most of the shows that Wolf don't have writer's rooms, and they they basically the writers come in, they work on their episodes themselves, and they pop into each other's offices.

But there's a couple of Wolf shows that have rooms, but most don't.

So it's nice because you literally could go down the hall and talk to someone and it's it's a very collegial feeling in that respect, and you really get to see I mean, and I got to see this a lot when it came to CSI, because obviously there was CSI Miami and CSI New York, and those shows were in some ways very different.

But also they had the CSI production around them, and that's what Wolf was is very.

Much CSI Miami is still just watching Cruso's performance episode after episode is one of my favorite ways to spend a day.

It is just so awesome.

I have a question about that period.

So you're doing really kind of standard procedural crime stuff at the time, when you know, especially the streamers, and you have your FX's, these they're really breaking that mold.

How did you feel about that?

Were you envious of those shows or were you so happy and actually very content to stick within the procedural conference.

I mean, I think I think there was enough in certain shows.

I mean, everybody's envious of doing kind of that type of work, but that's also not the job, you know what I mean.

Like, but the nice thing about the Wolf shows is, and I broke Hot was like this, once you get past once you get into the third season, really you start to do some personal stuff.

Like if you watch Chicago PD, which I think is a fantastic show.

I mean, Chicago PD was the closest NYPD blue that I found since I worked at ABC.

It really reminded me a lot of that show, and that show did a lot of personal stuff Chicago med did a fair amount of personal stuff, so they weren't devoid of personal personal stories.

But but I don't know, I mean, I'm very pragmatic.

I mean that's one of the things when you when you when you're a current executive, you learn you've got to be very very pragmatic about things and about like who you're producing shows for, and so you kind of pick your spots where you can do it.

And then but you also don't sit there and go if I deviate too far, I'm gonna lose my audience.

And that's that's the job, you know.

So yeah, I mean it's I watch a lot of the other stuff you mentioned, but I also feel like, you know, these shows are the these shows are some of the most popular shows in these streamers libraries.

Ye, no, totally.

You know, you can for every you know one or two ones that you do that are more our tour dreven or you know, heavy character, they're not the ones that are paying the bills.

Yeah, it's so funny.

I go, when I think back to the first time I saw the first episode of The Wire, I was like, well, this is a poorly written scene, not enough it is changing.

We didn't.

We didn't move for the needle.

And then it took like three episodes.

I was like, oh, oh, they're like Bret, they're folding the form out and expanding in a way.

But it was my instant reaction was like, why is everyone talking about the show?

This is so poorly written, you know, and it just was a completely different mindset.

But I think you're right, it's you know, the the procedural show is more popular.

Ultimately, I think you know it ultimately wins.

I mean, it's more popular.

But also like to your point about you know, just those are that was the reason why a lot of actors didn't want to do it, because the worst thing for some of these actors would be, like, you're telling me I have to play the same role one hundred times.

Deliver this exposition about the would always.

We would always laugh about this.

Where there would inevitably there would be mostly was an actor because back in those days there were far more male leads and dramas.

They're kind of still are, but and they would, you know, they would sign on for the role.

And part a lot of the reason I think why they signed on for the role was because the money that just the money, and and it also allowed them to stay in one place.

And you know, at some point in season one, I mean this happened with like I don't know, like seven to ten actors.

I won't mention they would, you know, start to get frustrated, and you know, because they're working.

They're working six or seven days, and of the six or seven days, four or five of them are what we call shoe leather, which is you're moving the plot along, and there'd be that sit down, you know where with the executives.

I didn't sign on for this.

You're like, well, actually you did sign Benjamin.

And you're gonna get to You're gonna get to, you know, do more.

But it's but you see the turnover on the especially in Law and Order, where it's like you get two seasons of a DA, three seasons of a DA, and then there's a new one.

You get two seasons of a detective and then there's a new one.

The guests are often the juiciest roles, right interrogation scenes, the guest stars are breaking down and having to admit something.

I remember doing one of those shows and just being so excited because I got to, you know, I had the interrogation scene and it was like a police abuse thing.

I was like, all right, and I get in.

I'm so excited to meet the two leads and they're just like, who holds folder?

Wait?

I hand it to you.

Wait, you take the folder, and then I hand it to you.

And they didn't want to look at me.

They didn't want to talk about the scene.

They just wanted to figure out who does the folder work?

And I was like, oh right, that's your life, this is this scene is every other day for you, and like I'm just the new guest star.

Of the week.

But for me, it was like I have to act.

I have to do, you know.

And they were like who holds?

And you know that all they could.

That's all I mean.

It's it's interesting because a lot of those wolf actors law and order ones, certainly they stuck around for a long long time.

Yeah, but I also think, you know, those are veteran actors who also had done who appreciated, you know, the stability of the role, and also also did did stuff on the side, you know what I mean, Like they did theater.

I was gonna say, your Chicago New York actor is that's a different piece in a lot.

That's why Sam Patterson didn't mind being on Law and Order for as long as he was on, because he's also doing theater and he's like, I'm an actor, this is what I do, have a great role on this.

Why would I why would I leave?

So yeah, it's the difference between an actor and someone who wanted to be a movie star.

Yeah, exactly.

There were a lot of actors who were not lead characters on shows that I worked on who would be complaining, you know what I mean about their character or whatever.

But those I would like, Okay, So then on your hiatus, you should be doing theater where like hid on the call sheet on Sea I, but you could be doing Hamlet.

You know, maybe not in maybe not in Central Park, but certainly in a big city.

Who would put your name on a billboard.

But it's like, more, that's not what they did.

Yeah, you know, so it's you know, it's it's it's a phenomenal gig.

But in the case of a number of them, you had to be like, Okay, you know, this is this is what the show is, and yes, you will have your opportunities to but we can't on a show when there is a ticking clock, Why would we Why would viewers want to go home with you?

So there's a killer out there.

Yeah, so you have to you know, you pick your spots, and the longer a show goes on, the more forgiving and audience is about.

Yeah, I don't know why this character is divorced.

I do want to see them have a romantic relationship, but it's definitely a challenge on on both ends.

Well, you've worked closely.

We've mentioned a few of them.

You have worked closely with a ton of successful showrunners over the past twenty years, most importantly this podcast, Michael Jacobs, but we have Dick, Wolf, Chuck, Lorie, Don Miguil, The list goes on and on.

Do you think there's anything in particular they all have in common.

Yeah, I mean I think they have.

I think they have strong points of view and aren't afraid to express them.

I think they are decisive when they need to be.

I think that they also understand the grind that producing twenty two episodes is.

I mean, the fact that it's just so crazy.

Now where you know, my friends, we are working on shows that are eight to ten episodes.

I'm like, oh my god, I'm luxury You know, I can't believe we did twenty four episodes in its world one year.

That's you know, that's two years last.

Yeah, that's just you know, put your head down and don't look up until Christmas.

So I think I think they also, whether they whether they're they admit it or not, they find who they can delegate to and lean on that person.

And I think they also are smart enough to admit what they don't know.

Uh.

I think those are those are the trades.

I also think you have to be able to You have to have a thick skin and realize I am likely going to, if not piss off with every decision I make, someone is not going to like it.

Someone's going to disagree with it.

But you have to be able to know that and move on.

And I kind of looked at those people and as I as I when I was heading head of Current, like it took me a good two years to learn how to do that job in a lot of ways, been one of them off, just like, yeah, that person got really pissed off at me today.

But they're also likely with most of the decisions I made, they're not going to remember them in a year, you know what I mean?

That's that's a thing that you encounter with a lot of people is like everything is the most important thing, and it's just not whether you get to a point where you're like ninety five percent of these decisions are what I call disposable.

And I don't mean that in an insulting way, but I mean it in the idea of like you're barely going to remember it, and it's not a big it's not a big fork in the road, but there are and that also helps you where it's like there are big forks in.

The room, right, It'll help you differentiate between the tables.

And then you have to stop down and go, Okay, we need to really think about this, because if you take the wrong call here, we're going to have another meeting in a month or two and you're really not going to like it, or we're going to have another decision to make and you're really not going to like it.

And if at all possible, let's look at what Let's look at common mistakes and that has happened in the past and see if we can put them into this category.

Because that's what I would do a lot of which I would be like, let's just not make keep making the same mistake over and over and over, Like, let's not just change something for the sake of changing it, because if that we're going to do that, then we're going to be back here again.

So most of those people could do it, but they and they also kind of knew, like they knew what they were really really good at, and they also knew what they weren't good at it, and they might not admit it, but there their admitting it would be like you take care of it, you know, like that's not going I don't want to do it, like I want you to do it because I don't want to do yeah, yeah, And or in a lot of cases, by the way, that's delivering bad news.

A lot of very very successful people got that way because they didn't like delivering bad news and so someone else got to do it.

And I was on the the delivering bad news part of it a lot.

But you know, I just kind of most people realize, you know, it's it's at that point if you're delivering really bad news, like if you're telling someone their show is canceled, very rarely is it a surprise, right, And it's disappointing.

It's really disappointing when it show's on the bubble and yeah and just go look, I'm just sorry.

But you know, development was a lot stronger than we anticipated, or it just didn't go your way.

But you know, for most people that I had to deliver the information too, I got yelled at a couple of times, but most people were very were understanding, you know.

So there's there's it's hard to be a really good show runner.

There's I mean someone said to me early on in my career, there's a lot of ways to run a show poorly.

Oh yeah, it's not that many ways to run a show.

Well, yeah, and it's not a coincidence that there are certain people, you know, even in this new world, whether it's zoom or eight or ten episodes, a lot of the fundamentals of really good show running to me are completely the same.

Well, finally, looking back on your time almost thirty years ago now on Boy Meets World, before all of these big executive jobs came your way, did you ever think people would still be talking about Boy Meets World in thirty years?

I mean I would say it's no and yes no, Because whoever thinks anything they do is going to be that seminal that people are going to talk about it.

But I do feel like there's a there's a warmth to this show, and there's kind of like a in a weird way, I wish fulfillment of like a world to live in in this show that I think people kind of you know, don't lose sight of.

I mean, I found it very interesting when I used to when I speak at colleges, because I do it periodically for friends, and I don't come in there talking about Boymi's world, but every time someone will raise their hand and ask me a question about SO, I just I feel like there's and you guys doing this I think also is rightfully kind of like reigniting interest in the show.

And so it's about the themes of what the of what the show stands for.

And I I so in that point, given where we are now, I'm not surprised at all.

And when I watch my what my daughter's watching, most of the half hours that my daughter's watching are you know, would never have existed if it wasn't for t G.

I F So in that sense, I'm I'm not surprised at all.

And I think there's also kind of a sense of to be able to kind of see where these characters grew, how they grew up, and how you guys, you know, are living your lives.

That's also something where the nostalgia element of that to me now feels irresistible.

Well, David, we hope you'll come back and join us for season seven.

When we get to one of your season seven interviews episodes, we'd love to have you back to go over it, talk about the episode.

We hope you'll join us again.

Thank you so much for being here with us and spending your valuable time with us.

It's really you've been You've enlightened us so much on what the process was, and we appreciate you so much.

So thank you.

I hope I made some sense absolutely, Thank you guys.

It was a pleasure.

Thank you, and look forward to doing it again.

By as a wealth of knowledge, stuff he knows I would like, like he should.

I mean, he could teach probably the best college course on television production and like how to how to run a show because he's seen it from both sides.

Like that is well, we talk about it.

We didn't get to talk about it on in the podcast, but he has for he's got consultation services with a company called Stage thirty two, and it's for people looking to make TV from end to end, meaning developing an idea, pitching it, learning the process of presentation and production.

I mean truly, I.

Know we got a good another great resource we have, like we have access to some of the greatest resources in all.

Of television and we've got to use them to put our show together.

Yeah, it's really interesting, you know, like a you know, it's it's going to sound like kind of an I'm being dismissive, our insulting, but he has a dispassion about him that is very cool to see because I feel like, you know, as showrunners or creatives are usually there are energy and passionate and that actually can be off putting and not conducive to a calm running show.

And he clearly just has like been through it enough to know to like he can pull it back.

He can just Yeah, even him saying that one of his best when he's training people don't fall in love with your shows.

Right yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

He open's great man.

All right, so somebody else we got to put the list to help us on our show.

Thank you all for joining us for this episode of pod meets World as always.

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Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fischel, Wilfredell and Writers.

Executive producers Jensen Carp and Amy Sugarman, Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor, Tara sudbachsch producer, Maddie Moore, engineer and Boy Meets World superfan Easton Allen.

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