Hey, So this is gonna be the third in our unofficial series about animal feelings.

We're gonna be referencing our episode about whether or not suburban dogs are happier than city dogs quite a bit in this episode, So if you have not listened to that yet after listening to this one, you may want to go check that one out.

Here's the show for today.

I'm Noah, I'm Devin, and I'm Kate.

And this is no such thing, the show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours by actually doing the research.

On today's episode, are outdoor cats happier than indoor cats?

There was a study that came out years ago where they found that like some cats had eaten dead people.

There's no such thing, no such thing.

Touch thanks, touch, than to thank.

It's right off the bat here, let's address the elephant in the room.

If you listen to the top of this episode, you may have noticed that we have replaced.

Manny permanently forever.

No Manny had a kid.

Congrats Manny.

So over the next couple of weeks there will be a couple of episodes that Manny will not be a part of.

So we're gonna have some guest hosts.

So today we are joined in the studio by someone our listeners may be familiar with already.

If you're real, you should be.

If you care about the Yeah.

Kate Lindsey.

So.

Kate is the host of the Slate podcast I See y Am I she writes the embedded newsletter, and she happens to be the sister of Noah's wife, So she's a sister in law of the pods.

I've spent many Christmas mornings with Noah exactly.

And you also sat in with us on episode twenty seven because you wanted to find out why adults can't order it off the kids menu.

Yeah, one of our most popular, if not our most popular.

Wow, that's crazy.

Yeah, it's not crazy yet.

Well, I guess, I guess.

I'm just happy that people have the same question.

Yeah, clearly, we're still getting emails about it.

So kay.

We brought you on today because we're tackling the question about our outdoor cats happier than indoor cats.

When we went to our roster of friends and you were at the top of the list because you love cats.

I love cats, every kind of rat.

Yeah, you own cats.

I own cats.

I have two partner and ruby.

They were not by me, but they were found in a parking lot, so in many ways they they are on both sides of this, but yes, they're they're indoor cats.

No, what is your experience with cats?

Did you grow up with cats?

No, never owned a cat.

Have really not spent much time around cats, just kind of like I've checked in on some cats sitting duties once in a while, that sort of thing.

I don't have any strong feelings really either way about cats or how they live.

Maybe you're a great neutral person a way in where I can.

But I've always had I had dogs growing up.

I have a dog now.

I did have a cat growing up.

But I was talking to them my mom about this.

I was like, why did you guys have a cat?

Because they're not really I think my mom likes cats more than my dad did.

But they always had cats growing up because living in a city and you know, in apartment buildings, mice are always an issue.

So they were like growing up like we always had cats as like pest control.

Yeah.

I know, honestly, people should be thanking us cat owners if we're in your building, or cat owners specifically because because it's a combo of the attacked the mice, but I also think the mice stay away this morning.

Yeah, I actually the other day came by, spent some time after cats.

I'm good.

Yeah, but they're both.

They're both.

Yeah, they look everyone's I Now.

I'm like, oh they look so different, but they're looking exactly the same.

They're brother and sister.

Okay, so how did you get them?

So it was Brooklyn animal action.

But finally how I not that I never didn't have like the stigma against black cats, but I wouldn't say I was like, oh, I need a black cat.

But then we were cats sitting for some friends who had two black cats.

Well they were on vacation for two weeks, and I just like fell in love with them and they were similarly like brother and sister, and like I would probably two days after they came back and got their cats back, I saw these kitten black cat siblings and I was like to ask Tyler, my husband, I was like, is it weird if we just immediately get their basically their.

Cats we just cats sit.

But we did it, and now we still see them around.

Like Tyler and them are still close friends and were always like, you're the reason we have our cats.

Yeah, and then we just they were about six.

Months when we adopted them, and they were and still continue to be very bad.

They Yeah, they love to eat human food.

But they're also they're so sweet.

I mean Ruby sweet too, but she's a bit more of like a spicy girl.

But they both they're very like food motivated and they're very loving.

But yeah, this is oh.

Some leg do it to the microphone partner?

They love you want to get that?

Maybe some scratching of the the couch.

I don't know it's going to stop you, they don't.

This is the other thing.

Yeah, yeah, So have you ever taken them outside?

No, we are because so they were found in a parking lot at a BJ's and benson Hurst.

And yeah, and and they love human food and like trash, and so we just I think because they were like raised on that initially.

And our whole thing is like we know they love us, we know they love being home, but if they were given we think we'd be choppoliver immediately if they could like go back to the streets and eat garbage.

So, as the person who has the most experience with cats of this roundtable, what are your thoughts.

Do you think that outdoor cats are happier cats?

So, I despite my cats being indoor cats I have grown up with when I lived in the UK, I will say like there specifically, it seems like almost I would say nearly unheard of to have only an indoor cat.

And so when we were growing up in England we had like our American cats with us.

It'd be quarantined for like three to six months.

That's a side thing, but it was crazy, so no real ordeal to move them there.

But they then there became indoor outdoors, so they were not exclusively Yeah, they were hybrid.

They were hybrid work and I mean it's it's hard.

It's hard to say because you when they are outdoor cats, you don't see them, and so it's like, so that would suggest they're enjoying it.

And cats are such creatures of routine that you know, we would learn to expect them back at the door around a certain time and they'd be like, let me back in, but it would be kind of like literally like they'd be going off to the office and.

Then and then coming back.

And so I'm my inclination was to be like, well, cats who have an outdoor cat personality like it.

But I don't know if that just is because basically every cat I've had had that's indoor only seems really content to be indoor only.

But every outdoor cat I know, like my parents' neighbors now have barn cats that are exclusively outdoor.

They are plump and busy, uh and seem to be having a great time.

And so I wonder if it's like a nature versus nurture thing, except it might all be nurtured.

But the saying that, I can think of the cats I've had that if I put them outside, it would be like a hate crime.

Yeah yeah, yeah, like they would be dead instantly.

Yeah, no survivalan Yeah.

I mean it's probably a lot like people.

Some people like the camp Yeah, some people don't.

What about have you ever or has anyone you know like taking their cats out on leashes?

Yes, my friend Hannah full name, she has a cat named Circe uh, and she would bring Surce to the park in a stroller.

Then she had a leash and we would sit there with her on the leash.

But like dogs, obviously dogs like being outside, but they can also settle outside.

I also think maybe because it was such a novelty for Circe, Like she just would not like she just wanted to be everywhere, and she really would make a bee line for trees and try to get up in the tree and so like sometimes the leash would be like vertical because she'd be like wanting to allow Sirce to do all her little things, but.

Wanted to be up in the tree.

I mean, I guess it's similar to how I think I felt about dogs, where I think a hybrid sounds good.

I know that's not the strong, but well for that, for that sake, I guess I'll go outdoor then Okay, if i'm if I have to lean one way.

If you want to make a decision it find a cat, if.

Your cat, because I think outdoor basically implot you know, hopefully they get to go inside sometimes, but yeah if if if, then it's like, you know, Kate's giving them a lease or something, and it's like you need to decide if you're going to be indoor out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you gotta sign the lease.

I think these cats, it sounds like would probably whether it might not be there the best interest.

While they were outside before I know, and they.

Have they probably didn't like it in the parking lot.

I think it's so like I think against like right in my heart.

In a city, I think I can I know better than them, and I'm like, it's better in here.

If we were in the country, I think they would be so much happier prancing around a little fields and hunting mice.

But in the city you can just hunt a garbage for the most which they do like, but it's not good for them.

Yeah, and a lot more dangerous, right.

Like the rap, poison all that stuff.

Yeah, it would give even just the rats, right, just yeah, that's true.

Yeah, no that we would be too scary to me.

All right, So you're so yeah, I'll say I'll say outdoor.

Outdoor hate you're saying indooror I'm gonna go with outdoor.

I'm saying indoor just because I'm like, you like but kind of like a munchhausing situation where I'm like, you like being in here, this is great?

Right, Yeah, I'm doing the best thing.

Yeah, that's exactly what I felt about the dogs.

All right.

So we're gonna take a little break and when we get back, we're gonna hear from a cat scientist who's gonna tell us which cats are happier outdoor cats or indoor cats?

All right, we are back.

So before the break, we were debating whether or not outdoor cats are happier than indoor cats.

Uh.

So I called up a leading expert in the field.

Hi, I'm doctor Michael Delgado.

I'm a cat behavior expert.

I'm a behavior consultant, and I'm also a scientist.

All right, so doctor Michael, Uh, it's pretty cool.

I sent you'all a photo.

I was gonna say, you better give the visual yes.

So you know, we we do.

We record these interviews with video as well.

So she shows up in her video window.

She's wearing a cat shirt.

You know, she showed up.

She showed up.

Her cat is on like a cat tree behind her, like hanging out basically on her shoulder.

She's tatted up.

I was like, this is the perfect person to talk to about this, and not just because she's a scientist and oh you know, like she could have known nothing about cast but showing up with that fit and I was like, Okay, she's about her business.

She also has a book called Play with Your Cat that delves into understanding your cats wants and needs to give them a better healthier life.

So we're gonna break this conversation down into a few chapters.

So let's start with chapter one.

Domesticated.

There's a question mark there.

Oh, we think cats were domesticated approximately ten thousand years ago, but that exact date is always very fuzzy based on genetic data, archaeological data.

And just for reference, dogs were believed to be domesticated between fourteen and twenty.

Thousand years ago.

Long ago.

Yeah, so cats were domesticated a few thousand years later.

What we see is that in the fertile Crescent, where humans were settling storing food, that there is evidence that cats came into people's lives became part of their lives.

Right, So we see art depicting cats, we see archaeological evidence of cats coexisting with humans.

But you know, the question of like our cats truly domesticated really depends on how you think about domestication, and so I prefer to say they're semi domesticated.

Certainly we have coexisted with them, But domestication is all described as like a process we do to like plants and animals to make them usable by humans, right, and that includes dogs.

But you know, we want plants to create more corn or more weak.

We want chickens to produce more meat.

We want dogs to do specific jobs for us, like hurting or protecting our property or helping us hunt, and we haven't really done that with cats.

So what we believe happened is that humans stored grains which attracted rodents, which attracted cats.

So you could say, like, oh, well, obviously humans needed cats to protect their food from all of those rodents, but the reality is that humans already had dogs and weasels to do pest control for us, so cats are like an added bonus.

But really, what's more likely that happened is like, Okay, they help us a little bit.

They're cute.

Some of them are friendly, the friendlier ones like, oh, I'll toss them a little bit of my food.

Those cats that are friendlier are more able to take advantage of human kindness and reproduced because they're more likely to survive, So then they're offspring are also a little more friendly to people, and then they're offspring are a little more friendly to people.

And now we have cats in our beds and you know, behind us while we're working and on our computer, laptops, so they're they've kind of infiltrated, but it's not a it's not considered like a mutually beneficial relationship like domestication of other species.

In fact, cats probably benefited a little bit more than humans, because again, we already had pest control.

As she was talking, I was like, right, so cats are like the most unemployed because there's no you know, there's no reason they don't do anything.

But then as she was talking, I was like, oh, cats are using us, like, at least with the way she described it, I basically realized in the moment that we were getting played because I was like, oh, they don't.

Do anything for us, yeah, just because they're cute.

And then when she stopped, it was like, oh, but they can use us for warmth and shelter and food.

I guess in the city, you know, past control is still a thing.

Yeah, yeah, and outside the barn cats yeah yeah.

Yeah, barn cats are definitely a thing.

But yeah, in terms of when they were starting to be domesticated, it's like, well, we don't really need you guys here.

We kind of got this taken care of, but they're like, I want to hang out.

There's food here, it's kind of nice that it's not for the purely utilitarian.

Yeah, just like.

Maybe they're just nice to have around.

Yeah, you can't the weasel do it, but yeah, cat comes in.

It's on your lap.

Although I'd welcome a weasel on my you should try getting a Yeah, the indoor outdoor weasels happier.

So another thing doctor Michael pointed out is that we have a larger variety of dogs then we have cats.

Right, there's I think nearly like three p fifty to four hundred, it's like disputed dog breeds, and there's only like forty cat reads.

Wow.

And some of that, she said, is because cats get to choose who they have sex with.

Although we have certainly created breeds of cats specifically based on physical features like the coloration and the face shape of the Siamese or the Persian, you're not going to see those extremes.

Like we do in dogs.

And some of that is due to i think, just less controlled breeding.

So we know that about ninety six percent of cats in the world choose their own sexual partners, so they have a lot of freedom compared to dogs.

And as a result, people also have many fewer pure red cats than pure red dogs.

And also we just see less extreme appearances, so you could have you know, probably the biggest extremes would be like a main coon cat, which is like you know, known to be like twenty pounds, and then you have like a singapore which are more like seven or eight pounds.

Right, So that's kind of the range of cat diversity as far as what they look like.

And again with the personality there's been and behavior there's been less selection.

What do we mean by by choosing?

I guess are we saying that like dogs, there's more of an industry and breeding dogs, and so they could theoretically it's not their choice.

We're getting into some dicey ethics here.

Consent.

Yeah, I don't know if the lady cats are consenting.

Yeah, oh yeah, I know, yeah.

But that they're going out the cats are breeding just out in the water out of the.

Love of the game.

Yes, yeah, what type of cats are yours?

They are?

So it's always hard when they're rescued because I think, like as we just sort of learned it and it's truth.

I think there's a lot of a mutt situation.

But they're they're they're said to be bombay which is just off which is a type of black cat.

But I doubt they are pure bread bombee and I have if you haven't, don't think that because I follow It's Brooklyn Animal Action and I follow them on Instagram and one time they posted a cat that was older that looks so much like my.

Cats, which I know is crazy because their black cats, but with the eyes.

Specifically and the type of fur that I did email them going is this my cat's mom?

And I was I was not.

They did not reply, makes fun of because I'm just like, hey, link, is.

This my cat's mom?

What are you gonna do about it?

I know, my god.

I just want to thank her for her.

Chapter two the Census.

So going through your book, you kind of start talking about the five or let's say six senses for you if you bring in balance there of cats.

So I wanted to sort of go through those one by one.

Can we start with their sort of large eyes and their vision?

Sure, we always want to start with vision because we are very visual, right, and so as we'll discuss for cats, it's not nearly as important as we would like to think it is.

But certainly, you know every part of the body of the cat has evolved to help them be a more efficient predator, So they do have those forward facing eyes.

They're very large, gives them a broad kind of range of view so they can detect prey, but their close up vision is actually pretty terrible.

So if you're cuddling your cat, you look fuzzy.

If you're a bird, you know, ten fifteen feet away, your cat's like laser focused.

The other thing is that cats have very very well adapted eyes for dark conditions, right, so when it's dawn or dusk, they have extra rods in their eyes.

So there's two kinds of cells in our eyes that help with light and color.

So rods are more about light and cones are more about color.

So we have great color vision, so we have a lot of cones in our eyes where cats.

Have very few.

So they're really good at amplifying available light when it's kind of dark outside, you know, dusk, dawn, when they're birds and mice are are getting active, but their.

Color visions very blah.

So you know, people like to buy you know, I think they like to buy cat and dog toys that are brightly colored and cute and like look like a strawberry or whatever, But they really don't see red green very well.

They're more in the.

Yellow blue end of the spectrum, so those colors are gonna look less drapped to them, but like a red toy is probably gonna look pretty gray.

Their eyes are pretty specialized, so they pick up on a lot of like horozontal movement interesting, so imaginable mouse running left or right.

They're going to be really attuned to that.

I do, I agree.

I'm like, I like, I agree, I agree with this well because if I like my cats are they love treats, but I have noticed that I'll like if I drop if I have it in my hand, or like drop it in front of them.

They like they're kind of like taking their best guess to get the treat.

But I sometimes be like, are used topid like from you?

And no, that does shed some light on it.

No pun, that's not a pun.

Yeah.

So you know, when we think of a sense of smell, we often think of dogs, but turns out cats are really social smellers.

It's probably the most important sense of smell for social communication and how they feel about their environment, not as important for hunting.

So they're not They're not like a bloodhound, who's gonna like follow a trail of a mouse there?

Really are looking for a mouse in the environment, or listening for sounds.

I would say, hey, there's a mouse here.

But when it comes to their sense of smell, they do have an excellent sense smell, not quite as sensitive as dogs, but certainly much better than ours.

And they also have kind of what we call a secondary sense of smell, which is allows them to detect pheromones.

So pheromones are species specific chemicals that animals use to.

Communicate with other members of their species.

So we can't sniff our cat's pheromones, right, and dogs same thing like, they can deposit pheromones.

So cats have several scent lands on their body that deposit both a scent and a pheromone.

So like if you've ever seen a cat like rubbing their.

Cheeks on something, or scratching something or even urine spring, those are always that they can communicate with other cats the message maybe I'm ready to mate.

It could be hey, this is my territory, like bug off.

It could be just I live here and I was here recently.

So another cat can come up and detect those pheromones with a specialized like second nose.

As we call it.

It's like a it's a little spot in the roof of their mouth, and so you might see a cat making a very funny little grimace type face where they just open their mouth a little bit and so they're sucking in air and moisture that activates this organ, which is called the Jacobsen's organ or the vombar nasal organ.

And that's more detailed than probably people need, But.

What you need to know is that they kind of have this whole secret world of scent that they again learn mostly about other cats.

So if you live in a house with multiple cats, or a cat goes outside, you might see them go and sniff an area that another cat has been and they'll kind of make this little face, and so they're getting information.

How recently was this cat here?

Is this cat sexually intact or neutered?

Is this cat stress?

Like?

What's their emotional state?

These are the kinds of messages we believe that cats receive from pheromones from other individuals, and they also probably can smell their own pheromones that they deposited and go back and say like, oh, yeah, this smells like me.

I live here, this is mine.

So there's a certain amount of comfort.

And security that can be achieved from these messages, but it's definitely like I think, for us, it's just a whole world we can't really tap into, and so, you know, people get confused.

This is a common scenario you live with more than one cat.

One cat goes to the vet.

At the vet, they get handled by different people.

Maybe those people had hand sanitizer on, maybe the cat got cleaned with alcohol to like, you know, take a blood sample or something.

The cat comes home and the cat who did not go to the vet flips out like hissing, growling, like does not recognize the other cat.

And so people are like, have a very hard time with this.

Only it's Sammy.

Why don't you know Sammy right?

And the cat's like, no, Sammy does not smell right, Sammy smells not like Sammy.

So it'd be kind of like if you you know, have a partner or friend who showed up at your house looking completely different.

Yeah, I got like a huge makeover.

And they're like, no, it's me Joe, and you're like, no, Joe.

Joe is like five foot eight, not six foot four, and Joe has blonde hair, and you know, so you'd be like, no, like, what is going on that can happen to cats?

They're so focused on the scent for this social information that can really cause stress that problems for them.

Sometimes some cats seem to be more sensitive than others too, So there's a lot of kind of quirky, weird things about cats that you know, are really hard for us.

To relate to.

The face they I know exactly the face when they're I didn't realize what they were doing was spasically smelling through their mouth, but I knew that face because often it's the face cats make when they smell their own piss, and so it's a if you see your cat making that face.

Luckily, my cats have not, you know, knock on wood been like this.

But my immediate thing is like where in the house to do this, because like, why are you smelling it?

But they also did it when they smelled Tyler's foot, my husband, and that's been giving us a lot of anyp I know, well, like what I now, I know it's that it's registering a smell, but it just it does look like they've smelled something they don't like, and so it's really funny for a cat to like sniff a foot and then be like Jesus, all.

Right, Next, we're going to talk about tastes.

I told her that your cats basically eat anything.

So we know that they have specialized taste receptors for meat.

So they're they're very much an obligate carnivore, So they really should be eating a primarily meat diet that's made for cats.

So they are not maybe as adventurous as an omnivorous species.

Right.

So, so although dogs are part of the carnivorou carnivorous species, they are able to much more readily adapt to a broader diet.

What that means.

Obligate sounds like they're obligated to eat meat.

Look at you Latin in college.

Yeah, so they needed for their nutrients, whereas dogs can get nutrient.

Plants and animals.

So, yeah, they have to.

Taste can be influenced by early life experience, and in fact, kittens can be influenced by what their mom ates when she was pregnant, so in utero, so if she was eating a lot of human food, it's possible that they developed a taste for some other foods.

We think that, Yeah, So cats do have a reputation generally for being picky.

So they may only like one texture of wet food or one shape of kibble, one meat profile, and so they can be picky.

There's still quite a bit we.

Don't know about white cats are so picky.

I think in nature it's natural to be cautious if something doesn't taste good.

Right, So if you are.

An animal and you're sampling whatever is out their plants or you know, animals, ooh that didn't taste good.

Ooh, now I don't feel good.

I'm never eating that again.

So I think that can certainly play into it.

Cats do soon be especially sensitive to bitter They really do not like bitter things.

So medication can be really challenging for them because a lot of medications don't taste good.

So there you go.

Now, I'm like they needed to.

I respond, is that my cat's mom?

What did you eat?

But that would make a lot of sense because I do believe they were born in this parking lot, and so the mom was probably already there scrounging.

Yeah, that does make me honestly, now, it just seems sweet that that's like what they've absorbed from their mind.

They're like more human food.

Yeah, my mom was eating human food as a kid, and now I want human food as an adult.

Yeah, and they could they can open wrappers.

That's probably learned to.

It was a BJ's parking lot.

Oh wow.

Yeah, and so I think, yeah, they know how to open wrappers.

How about their hearing.

Hearing's very good.

Yeah, they got they got good ears, right.

They can move their ears all around to help them localize sound, so they're much more flexible than we are.

They can detect as low a sound as we can, but they can detect much higher sounds than we can.

So they can kind of spy on rodents.

You know.

They can hear some of.

Those ultrasound noises that we can't hear.

There was a time where my cats became very obsessed with one room in my house.

They were like staring at the wall, and I was like, oh, no, we have rodents, right, Yeah they can.

Yeah, they can hear things we can't hear, so, you know, and there's hearing is quite sensitive, so again adapted to be able to hunt effectively and detect when there's there's prey in the area.

There's certain sounds that are more likely to interest them like rustling of leaves, right, that would be like, oh, there's something running around outside.

So it's that kind of they're like tuned into like they're a hunting opportunity to hear.

How about their sense of touch, and then you talk a little bit about how they use their whiskers and sort of like their sensitive areas on their body.

Can you talk a bit about that.

Yeah, So whiskers are just like bigger hair hairs that are innervated, right, So they're at the base of each whisker there are nerve endings that are going to send signals to the brain.

So cats have whiskers face, forehead, they've got them on the backs of their legs, so those are.

Medic carpool whiskers.

And so they can use all.

Of those whiskers to get information, right, So they can actually detect air movements.

With their face whisker facial whiskers, so you.

Can you'll see and it seems like you've been doing a little like preparations even hanging out with some cats a little more.

And maybe well after this too, but like if you say, the cat with a toy and you're waving it around, they're little whiskers will be forward.

It's kind of you know, yeah, it's very cute.

Yeah, closer like closing.

In, yeah, exactly, and they can almost close it like if it was a rat, they could definitely kind of like touch the rat with their whiskers.

So they're getting because their close up vision is pretty poor, they can use their whiskers to kind of substitute for that information.

So the whiskers are now telling them like, oh, the praise movement a lot, or it's struggling.

Or it's gone.

And so they are again just kind of synthesizing information from all different kinds of places to and you know, their brain is doing this at real time to help them decide like should I continue pursuing this prey?

Is this prey dying or is it fighting back?

Am I you get bitten?

So they're getting information as a result.

Of these you know, sensitive parts of their body and all of their hair cells are also you know, giving them information.

So out of touch.

They are pretty sensitive to touch.

So as an example, a lot of cats don't like having their paws touched.

Belly is a big sensitive area for some cats, and we.

Are kind of the opposite.

We are a high touch species, right, So our fingertips are very sensitive, Our lips are very sensitive, and so we want.

To hug and kiss our cats a lot because they're soft.

And cute, and cats are very just sensitive, like they're a little you know, I wouldn't say totally twitchy, but but it's is kind of like a you know, I think too much handling can get them worked up.

And so it's very common that people like I was just petting my cat and you turn bit me, like why is he such a jerk?

And what's going on is the touch goes from feeling pleasant.

To feeling irritating.

And when we look at how cats interact with other cats.

Are friendly with, they do these very frequent kind of short like I'm gonna rub against you and just go.

On my way.

Yeah, but when we interact with our cats, we tend to like I want to petch you, I want to cuddle you, you gotta hold you, kiss you, and like I want to do this for a really long time because you're so soft and I love you.

And then the cat's like enough, so you know you have to be yeah, So you just.

Have to be aware and this, you know, I think this is a really.

Good reason to talk about how cat sensory world is so different from ours, because the common misunderstandings that we have are often just based in the fact that we think that our pets see and experience a world like we do, and that's a dangerous assumption.

So, you know, knowing that cats are very sensitive, knowing that we probably shouldn't pet them endlessly, I was also curious about what are the best places to pet our cats.

So there's actually been a couple of studies on this very topic, and what they converge upon is that most cats, it's like, neck up is good, so cheek rubs, little like behind the ears, most cats are gonna be okay with that.

Again, there's always gonna be exceptions.

So when we do a study of, you know, a group of animals, you're gonna have some animals that are in one extreme that like petting everywhere, right, and then you have cats at the other end that.

Don't like guinea petting, and then most cats are somewhere in between.

So you know, whenever I say okay, the most preferred area is generally above the neck.

Most cats do not like the paws, the belly, the base of the tail, Those are kind of the least favorite areas across all the cats that were studied.

If you're meeting a cat for the first time and you don't know anything about what this cat likes, stick to the cheek rubs.

We know most cats are going to be more comfortable with that.

Don't go right for the belly because some cats may like a belly rub.

But it's going to take you all to get to know that cat and see what they're comfortable with it, and also take them sometime to get to know you and trust you.

Yeah, I mean this is all true, and I know all of this, but I'm gonna kind of where I want.

I like it because because I'm feeding them garbage.

I know.

I I smother my cats.

And Tyler will always be like, you should see his or her face right now, because I'm like, like, I.

Just want them as close as well as.

Possible, and their face is like and they I can feel someone's like Ruby, especially like tensing underneath things let me go, and so I try to be mindful.

I try to.

I'm like, we both can compromise.

You can let me squeeze you for a little bit and I'll I won't do it.

Forever.

Yeah, I think what's good about getting the cats as kittens, which is what we did, and what else people do, is you can help de sensitize them to be like this is how it's gonna be, Like you either are gonna I mean this makes it sound like I'm like, no, I respect their boundaries and like I know when they're pissed off because they make it clear they'll do like their tails going all over, the ears go back, and so I can tell when they're overstimulated, and I'll give it a break.

With the moment we're back to normal, I'm like, all right, yea perfect.

And we'll get back to that kitten bit because socialization is really important, especially when cats are young.

So then the sixth sense, which doctor Michael thoughts about in her book, is the cat's sense of balance.

So cats have this very excellent sense of balance, which is in part helped by their tail, which is really an extension of their spine, so that whole you know, I think again, something we can't really relate to is a tail, but what that feels like and what it allows you to do.

But for cats, it does allow them to connect their writing reflex, which is just their desire to have their paws facing down right, so they want to be upright.

That's kind of what their body says is safest and natural.

But you know, if you live with a cat, you'll see they will you know, they can jump from the floor to three feet up with no problem.

They're on your counter before you know it, or they're walking along a very narrow beam, So they do have.

This incredible sense of balance.

And you may have heard like a cat will always land on its feet.

Do not try this at home.

So they do have again this writing reflex.

If they do fall from a higher like, they have to have enough time to turn around.

So if they fall from a lower distance, they're actually more likely to suffer a severe injury than higher up.

So if they fall from a certain height, they're more likely to be able to turn around and land on their feet.

But that doesn't mean they won't injure themselves because when land hard on their feet, the chin's going to hit the ground.

They can break their jaw and so all kinds of So do not allow your cat to jump out a window.

Or you know, do anything to test this.

It's really not something you want to spend the veterinary bill.

You don't want your.

Cat to die, but you know, there are certainly reports and cases of what we call high rise syndromer.

Cats do fall out a window and survive, and it seems to be because they can turn around.

The adorable four and a half year old Egyptian now plunge thirteen stories from his owner's penthouse balcony and somehow live to tell the tale.

Well, that is, if he could actually talk.

It's definitely a miracle.

Again, not something you want to like test, because not every cat is going to survive, and of course you may not hear about the cats who die after they.

Fall out with you.

So so let's not test.

This.

Not that much of a news story, you know, all right?

Chapter three, does my cat hate me?

All Right, we're gonna we're gonna transition now from the senses to talking a little bit about their personalities.

I feel like usually when we're talking about stereotypes, dog's rate.

Loving, they're loyal.

Cats are usually get a bad rap as being standoffish, like really conniving, always having some like alternative motives.

Even when we.

Were chatting in your apartment, you know, you describe one of your cats, who's more friendly is more dog?

Like more dog?

I said, he's more of a dog, and.

Then Ruby, you're like, geez a bit more like a true cat.

So I was curious about doctor Michael's point of view on this.

You know, what about this is true and what are these our misconceptions in terms of cat personalities.

What I would say is true about that is that that is how people feel, whether or not that is how cats are.

I think there are certain things that make dogs appear more friendly and loyal, and some of that is their facial expressions.

Right, So there's evidence that we've.

Actually selected dogs to like be able to raise their eyebrows and they.

Had that smile.

Right, It's like, yeah, like you see that, and what it reflects back to you is like I'm happy, I love you.

You look at a cat and you see nothing.

Yeah, there's just like a stare, right, It's kind of this like stoic.

And part of that is they just don't have as many facial muscles as dogs.

We know that cats actually do make a lot of very subtle facial expressions.

There was a study that.

Came out I think last year showing, like, you know, over two hundred and seventy seven, like different combinations of facial changes that they use when.

They're interacting with other cats.

But we have a hard time reading their expressions because they're much more subtle than dogs and they don't have the same kind of human.

Like appearance that a lot of dogs do.

So I think that's part of it.

We've also again back to that domestication question, right, Like, you know, dogs were domesticated many thousands of years before cats, and so I think that we have selected dogs to kind of be our buddy, right, and we also socialize them as puppies to go out in the world with us and you know, go to the coffee shop and go camping or whatever, and a lot of cats are not well adapted.

To that kind of lifestyle.

So I think it's just, you know, part of it is, you know, maybe people who want a more like obvious friendship and like loyalty go for dogs, and then those of us who like a little.

Mystery and like have a little more tolerance for.

Like uncertainty, might choose a cat.

One of my biggest pet peeves is when you meet a really nice cat and the first thing people say is like, oh, he's just like a dog and so yes, right, so people always yesterday when you met your friends yet right, So, so I think we have to recognize that there's there's a range of behaviors that we'll see in cats, and some of that, you know, that dog like personality is based in genetics.

Some of it is based in early life experiences during the cat's socialization window, which is like two to nine ish weeks of age.

So during that period, ideally kittens would be handled positively and gently by many different people, and that's just a period where kittens are very open to new experiences and they learn very quickly.

So when kittens do not get a lot of handling from two to nine weeks of age, or a lot of exposure to different people, different experiences, then every time they encounter those things as adults, it's kind of like a new, potentially scary thing that they did not that kind of didn't happen in their early period where it was like I'm learning about what's safe in the world.

So that is really I think one of the key reasons that people struggle with cats is that they if they didn't get that positive exposure when they were young, it's just harder for them to adapt as an adult, and unfortunately most people, I mean, you can't adopt a kitten before they're eight weeks of age.

You know, a lot of cats are born on the streets and then get brought to the shelter, and so they're not getting a lot of experience being a pet in that early part of their life.

Whereas for dogs, the dog socialization window starts a little later and it goes a lot longer.

So it's just a lot easier to help a dog adapt to living with humans than it is for cats.

People do tend to project a lot of negative emotions onto cats, like oh, he's spiteful, or he.

Wants to kill me.

Like you know, there was a study that came out years ago where they found that like some cats had eaten dead people, and like it turned Toto, like, is my cat going to eat.

Me when I die?

You know, it's just like this whole like your cat is somehow just waiting.

For you to die so they can eat you.

You know, cats are not inherently evil.

They're animals, just like we are.

They have certain motivations and instincts and needs.

I really try to not project too much and certainly not project negative stuff because I think it doesn't help cats.

Well, I will go on records and my cats are welcome to eat me.

The least I could do for them.

If I'm leaving them behind, they can't open a can.

Yeah.

And she talks about to you how I feel like cats have a bit more boundaries than dogs do, and she says, like cats are good teachers of consent.

I was so I was literally going to bring up I wrote a piece for GQ about cat dads after, like I think it was jd Vance made that like crazy cat lady comment.

I was like, well, they're a crazy cat men too, And.

I talked to some and one of the things that was coming was coming up about why like it's good for I mean, anyone, but like why there was a particular type of guy who had like like cats, is that it does require a bit of gentleness and patience, and you do have to start.

You have to learn to read cues about like whether they want to be pet and things like that.

And I remember hearing that and being like, I feel like maybe if everyone just had a cat, yeah, I would solve a lot of.

Problems, solve the male lonely Yeah.

I get a cat.

It's like when women have been lonely for hundreds of years, We've just getting cat.

Try it out.

Yeah, try it out.

So there's also a lot of theories out there about what a cats few us as like their mothers.

Oh, I'm very interested in this.

Order children are they are the other cats?

Uh so, I asked doctor Michael.

Yeah, it's a great question.

And unfortunately we can't ask cats directly, right, so we have to really infer a lot from how they behave around us and how they behave around other cats and try to figure out what is this relationship to them.

So we do see cats doing behaviors to humans that they would do to other cats, say a kitten would do to their mom, and so a classic example would be mawing.

You don't see cats very often at other cats unless they're kittens.

Kittens me out for mom a lot, right, just like we call mom for help when we're mom, like, you know, I don't feel well ready.

We're always like mom, mom or dad, you know.

But but for kittens, so they meow a lot, and then they kind of don't me out an adult when they're adults at other cats, but they may out at people a fair amount, right, So it might be I want food, I want to go out, I want to play, I want you to pay attention to me.

I bored.

There's kind of one check in the were their parent, right, So because they mail at us and kittens me out with their moms, we also see things like rubbing against us.

So like, if you're hanging out with a cat, off can rub against your legs, especially if they want something.

Right, So, again something that kittens will do to their moms, So that would also suggest they see us maybe as a slightly parental or caregiving role.

However, they also do things that would suggest more like a friendship.

Right.

So cats who are friends with each other will cuddle and groom each other, and so a lot of cats, you know, like to lay on us or cuddle with us, or lick our hands, and so that would be like more in the friends category.

I don't see a ton of evidence that they view us as children or offspring, right.

A lot of people think like, oh, my cat brought a mouse home, you must think I'm hungry, right, and that Yeah, so that's probably not what is going on.

Because we also know that cats will carry their prey to somewhere they feel safer to eat, So the simplest explanation for that behavior would be your cat is simply carrying the food somewhere they feel safe, and then they go to their food bowl and eat them cat food.

And they're not that interested in eating the mouse, so they're probably not bringing us a present or trying to feed us, or worried that we're starving.

So I think, you know, the most logical explanation is that we're somewhere between a parent slash caregiver and.

A best friend.

You know what, maybe that's why the rescue didn't respond to my email, because I'm my cat small and they wanted me.

To learn your cats teen mom.

You know.

All right, we're gonna take a quick break and when we get back, we'll get an answer to our question our outdoor cats happier than indoor cats?

All right, so we're back.

I'm Noah, I'm Kate, Devin.

All Right, it's time for our big question chapter What chapter are we on?

Chapter four?

Who's happier?

They all have their individual needs and personalities, but just in a general sense, wouldn't a cat that's able to explore everything in a world outside have a more fulfilling life than a cat that is stuck inside, you know, let's say in New York City apartment.

Yeah, And I think even the way you frame the question, you know, it's like the cat is stuck inside, right, Yeah, exploring the world.

So we have very.

Strong opinions about this, and you know.

It's it's it's an ethical question.

It's there are many factors to consider, and as as you might expect, I'm not going to give like a one size fits all is there's no easy answer, right I.

So, I worked in an animal shelter for many years, and we did have an indoor only policy, right.

We wanted our adopters to keep their cats indoors only.

And my own cats have been indoors only, and it wasn't until my so, not the cats I have currently, but my last cat, Clara Belle, she was probably about fourteen years old when we decided to take her outside in our backyard on a harness.

She'd been indoors the whole time we'd had her, so we'd had her for thirteen plus years.

She always seemed very happy.

She was a very loving, playful cat.

We provided her with lots of cool stuff, you know, cat trees to climb and things to scratch and places to sleep and heated beds and toys to play with and all that stuff.

But when she started.

Going outside on her harness, it was like, Oh, this is a different cat.

She really really really loved it and all she was doing, honestly because she was, you know, a senior, she would go outside, roll in the grass for a few minutes and then she just lay there in the sun and you know, kind of watch the birds or whatever.

So then I was like, wow, like this was it was obviously even though again and she'd never had behavior problem, she was a loving, amazing cat, like she'd never seemed deprived of anything, but it was clear that this was intrinsically different than just sitting in a window.

And you know, yeah, so I'd say since then, my perspective on whether or not cats should have some type of outdoor access has changed, and I do think that a lot of cats benefit from some type of outdoor access.

So my cats currently have a cadio, which is like a you know, a patio for cat.

Yeah, it's very trendy on like TikTok and stuff.

I've seen people putting them out, like can you explain kind of what a cad is.

Yeah, so it's really just an enclosure that allows your cat to be outside, but they cannot wander, right, And so that's kind of what I've what I've gravitated towards is the question is not should cats have outdoor access, but the question is should they be allowed to free roam?

And free roaming is really where the coal problems come into play.

So for example, bird killing and you know, dangers to the cat, whether it's being hit by a car or fighting with other animals, or poisons.

And also the neighborly consideration.

So when someone's cat free roams, I can tell you because my neighbor's cat free roams, she comes and you know, uses my sideyard as a litterbox, which I don't appreciate.

Right, So do I think cats can be happy indoors?

Yes they can be, but it's work.

So I think cats have this reputation of being low maintenance.

You hear it all the time like, oh, if you're too busy for a dog, get a cat.

Well, cats need stimulation of all o their senses.

They need things to climb on, they need things to scratch, they need a clean place to go to the bathroom.

They need safe places to hide, they need a sensory stimulation, so they need you know, things like catnip or cat grass where they're you know, chewing and smelling.

And they need things to play with so they can really practice their hunting skills in a safe way, so that would be with toys instead of with birds and mice.

And they need human interaction, right whether that's cuddling or training or just hanging out with them, being a presence for them.

So there, they really need a lot to thrive, a lot more than I think most people realize.

And I'm also not saying to spill them a caddio and you don't have to do anything else, but I do think a lot of people treat it like, well, my cat goes outside, so I don't need a cat tree, I don't need a scratching post, I don't need a litter box.

I don't need to play with him because he goes outside.

And so the flip side I think is that people see the outdoor access is just kind of get out a jail free card, Like I don't have to do anything really except throw down some food because everything he wants is outside.

The other thing is that I think the outdoors gets a little over glamorized as far as like, oh, it's not stressful at all.

A lot of cats get into fights with other cats exactly, yes, and it's not pleasant.

So I think we have to consider that as well.

Like there's there's benefits and cost to everything, and so for me, like my preferred solution is a cadio because it does and I have like a little cat door, so my cats can go in and out of the cadio from my bedroom whenever they want.

Some people do like harness training, which for some cats can be really fun and it really depends on the cat.

Not all cats like being like in a public location or like the feeling of a harness, but a lot of cats do, so that can be a great solution.

Or like you know, they make pet strollers that's less autonomy for the cat, but certainly an option for some kiddies.

So that's kind of where I tend to go.

Is like controlled outdoor access.

So can cats be happy indoors, yes, but you get to put the work in.

Do cats benefit from outdoor access?

Yes, But I think safest and best is some type of controlled access rather than just free roaming.

So that's like maybe they're they're happier.

Outdoor cats are happier for the short time that they are alive, and so like they don't quite understand.

Yeah, yeah, a good time, not a long time.

I've seen these cadeos as well.

Yeah, they're really trying to I wish.

It wouldn't be against the law for me to build one out one of my fires.

This sounds a lot like the dog answer, especially as far as kind of attention where it's like, you know, my dog is pretty much an indoor dog, and it's like, oh, he would be so much happier if we move somewhere and could just be outside all day or something.

But it's like you still need to pay attention to the dog and do these things, and like the dog might be bored or whatever, not to mention then the dangers that are around.

But yeah, sounds very similar as far as then even if your cats are indoors and have a bunch of things, you need to hang out with them, or then if they outdoors, you still need to hang out with them or get stuff.

So it definitely echoes that sort of sentiment a lot.

Yeah, and there's no shorthand right.

It's like if all these situations comes down to, you know, caregiving and actually being attentive and not just getting an animal and feeding them and thing and oh my job here is done.

Yeah, like you actually have to engage.

Yeah, they're not just like a roommate or.

Over here.

But I think people think of cats in that way.

Yeah, yeah, there was.

I think it's hard for me to even picture, like, ask someone who loves cats so much how you could just get one and then not interact with it.

Like they're very funny little guys.

I believe.

I do think if I took them outside, they would need to be leashed.

But the idea of getting we didn't even touch.

Like, I don't know how you get a cat who's a typical cat into a leash because Ruby would not stand for.

Anything puting a hardness on them.

Yeah, absolutely not.

Yeah.

Yeah, so maybe you know, maybe get a stroller.

I think it might be I'll see, Yeah, I mean Hanna had to move across the country.

Maybe it's in storage, yeah, stroller or the backpack.

So yeah, yes, yeah, I love I love when you end up on the business end of that and you're just like, I'm just going to follow you wherever you go, all.

Right, Kate, So how do you feel?

You know, I feel I feel good.

I feel good knowing that, like because I think I was really worried it was going to be they you know, they're really unhappy.

But you're really attentive.

Yeah, I would like to think so.

I think.

I think the biggest outcome from this much of Tyler's delight is I want to get like a cat tree or something to give them a bit more stimulation for for you know, approximating being outside being high up scratching.

But these two cats like they're so they're bonded pair of their brother and sister.

Like honestly, I feel like as long as long as they have each other, they seem pretty happy.

Hessys No Such Thing is a production of Kaleidoscope Content.

Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mengesh Hadakadur.

The show was created by Many, Fidel North Friedman and Me Devin Joseph.

Theme in credits by Many Fidel, Congrats Manny and Mia on being new parents to baby Lula.

Mixing for this episode is by Steve Bone.

Additional music for this episode by Zo Peterrelli.

Filling in as the third mic this week was Kate Lindsay.

Check out her newsletter embedded in her podcast I See y Am I.

Our expert this week was doctor Michael Delgado.

Check out her book Play with Your Cat.

We're gonna put a link to it in our show notes.

Visit No Such Thing That Show to subscribe to our newsletter, and some pics of Kate's little baby kittens.

They're not kittens, they're grown ass cats.

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