1 00:00:00,260 --> 00:00:02,650 -Hey. I'm Michael Dyrynda. -And I'm Jake Bennett. 2 00:00:03,380 --> 00:00:08,780 And welcome to episode 182 of the North Meet South Web podcast. 3 00:00:08,780 --> 00:00:11,460 -Chuka, chuka, chuka. -Let's j- 4 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:13,340 -Hey. -Let's just assume you heard it. I don't 5 00:00:13,340 --> 00:00:15,630 know why you don't hear it anymore, but it definitely played. 6 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:19,440 I have no idea. It's, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Hey, everybody. Welcome to 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,650 episode 182. We're going to skip the chit chat. Do you know why? Do you wanna know 8 00:00:23,650 --> 00:00:27,600 why? I'll tell you why. I'm starting the chit chat, but we're gonna skip it. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,420 -Do it. -I am... Um, 10 00:00:31,500 --> 00:00:33,280 I think I'm entering that stage of life 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,360 where you're just perpetually tired, all the time. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,480 -Mm-hmm. -I think it's just how it is. I think 13 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:40,760 there's... I don't think there's any coming back from it. I think it is just 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,140 called life, and I think that's where I'm at right now. And so I'm like, "You know 15 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:45,800 what? Let's just get into it." Like, 16 00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:52,400 no need to, uh, you know, pretend like, uh, we've got limitless energy here. Like, 17 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,020 let's get down to the nuts and the bolts. But 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,520 that'd be missing one of my favorite parts of the show- 19 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:57,530 This has been two weeks in a row that this has- 20 00:00:57,530 --> 00:01:00,210 ... which is catching up with you, Michael. How are things going, my friend? 21 00:01:00,210 --> 00:01:04,220 This is, this is two weeks in a row that you've been, like, tired, tired. Which is 22 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:08,950 -very unusual. So- -Dude, it is. I think it... Well, I think 23 00:01:08,950 --> 00:01:10,220 -it's going back to the school thing. -It could be something, like, it could be 24 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:11,700 -seasonal. -I think it's the changing of the weather. 25 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:13,820 -Yeah. -Yeah. I think that may be what it is. 26 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:17,120 -Yeah, that's what it is. -I am... We, we had like this pocket... So, 27 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,300 we're heading into spring now, and, uh, Australians, we just say like the first of 28 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:25,090 September is spring. We don't, we don't hang around for like the spring equinox or 29 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:28,200 whatever the heck. You know, it's not the 22nd of September. We start all of our 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,720 seasons on the 1st of the month. When they- You know, on the q- on the quarter 31 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:32,600 that they roll around in. 32 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,500 -Respect. Respect. -So we're heading into spring now, and, um, 33 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:41,780 we... Because it's spring, it's like sun but it's also rainy. But then it's cold, 34 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:46,320 but then it's sunny, but it's not warm. And so I had this pocket of time on the 35 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:49,720 weekend where I was like, "I gotta mow the lawn now 'cause the weeds are getting out 36 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,760 of control." And 37 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:57,540 I'm gonna do it so that when the lawn stuff... Which I just shared a photo of 38 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:00,1000 the, the box that this came in in, in the cash money. From that- 39 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,400 -Oh, okay then. -It's a local company called Lawn Hub. 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,860 -Mm, nice. -Which sounds- 41 00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:08,660 -Good name -... similar to another thing that is also 42 00:02:08,660 --> 00:02:10,919 -a hub, and their branding- -Oh, sure. Yeah, GitHub. 43 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,380 -Their branding- -Yeah, sure. Yeah. 44 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:17,020 Yes. Yes, definitely. Um, and their branding matches color. Like, all of the 45 00:02:17,020 --> 00:02:18,769 -naming of stuff is- -Oh my 46 00:02:18,769 --> 00:02:21,380 ... is very much in line with the other hub. 47 00:02:21,380 --> 00:02:24,900 -Mm, mm. -And so, lawnhub.com.au. So I've, I've got 48 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:25,320 their stuff 49 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:30,780 had come in today, and so I had to mow the lawn because you're not supposed to, 50 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:35,079 like, spray... I've got this spray stuff. You're not supposed to fertilize the lawn 51 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,120 or do any of that kinda stuff within 48 hours, or 24 hours, whatever it is, of 52 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,989 -mowing 'cause you wanna catch the weeds- -Okay 53 00:02:41,989 --> 00:02:43,920 -... as they're in their growth cycle. -Gotcha. Sure. 54 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:47,280 So I did this on Saturday thinking I better do it now 'cause it's gonna rain 55 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:49,280 -on Sunday. -Yep. 56 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,260 And then it didn't rain on Sunday, and it didn't rain on Monday, and it hasn't so 57 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:56,320 far rained today but it's supposed to rain this afternoon and all night today and 58 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,730 -then tomorrow and Thursday. So I've got- -Gotta put... Yep. You're playing the game. 59 00:03:01,730 --> 00:03:04,120 And, and it's like, okay, so I wanna do 60 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,520 this, and you're supposed to do all of this lawn care, you know, 61 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,820 in September ahead of the growth period. And it's like, I need to mow the lawn to 62 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:18,070 get it ready so that the weeds are growing to then hit it with not the, not the weed 63 00:03:18,070 --> 00:03:21,350 -killer but this is like a growth stuff. -Okay, sure. 64 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:25,880 That is supposed to, like... It's a wetting agent and, and a fertilizer that's 65 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:26,640 supposed to 66 00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:29,960 spring the lawn into growth. And of course the weeds- 67 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,400 -Okay -... which are also there, and then as the 68 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:36,340 weeds are growing on day 10, you then hit it with the weed killer. Now, I don't 69 00:03:36,340 --> 00:03:37,250 -know- -Interesting 70 00:03:37,250 --> 00:03:40,500 ... I don't know how you're supposed to plan this because how do I know in 10 71 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:42,980 days, especially with the fits and starts of spring- 72 00:03:42,980 --> 00:03:45,400 -Yeah, yeah -... when the rain is gonna come? Because 73 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,080 -you're not supposed to apply this stuff- -Right before rain or anything like that, 74 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,170 -yeah. -Um, right before rain, you're not supposed 75 00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:51,840 -to, you know- -You want it to be dry for a couple of 76 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,640 -days, yeah. -So I don't know. 77 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,540 -It's tough, right? It's tough. -So I'm just hoping it works out right. 78 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:59,930 Yeah. We've got a buddy, I've got a buddy who does like... He's really big into 79 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:04,540 lawns and he's like, he goes out in the spring and he measures his ground soil 80 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:05,160 temperature. 81 00:04:05,780 --> 00:04:07,800 -Right. -And so he'll like... If it's before, you 82 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,240 know, if it's before the... You know, you wanna get your pre-emergent weed control 83 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,550 down between 58 and 61 or something like that, and if you go, you know, I don't 84 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:18,329 -know. So anyway- -Not to that extreme 85 00:04:18,329 --> 00:04:20,899 ... I just tell him like, "Hey dude, text me when you're putting your stuff down." 86 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:21,510 -That's what I always say. -Yeah, and I'll do it. 87 00:04:21,510 --> 00:04:24,170 "Just text me when you're putting your stuff down." And then I'll do it too. 88 00:04:24,170 --> 00:04:27,440 'Cause he lives you know, you know, five miles away, so I'm like, all right. 89 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,520 -Yeah. -Chances are if it's, if his soil 90 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,360 temperature is all right, it's, mine's going to be about there too. 91 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,280 -It'd be about the same, for sure. -Yeah. Anyway, it's, that's a big help. 92 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,630 -But, uh, anyway. -So yeah. So, so doing that at the moment, 93 00:04:37,630 --> 00:04:40,130 but like trying to fit it in with, with the weather is ridiculous. 94 00:04:40,130 --> 00:04:42,219 -Yep, yep. -And so, because I mowed the lawn even 95 00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:45,900 though it was wet it was still enough to kick up the pollen and so now hay fever 96 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:47,810 -season is upon me. -Oh, hay fever it is. Yep. Here it is. 97 00:04:47,810 --> 00:04:51,680 So, right. So this is my thing. You know, I wake up in the morning, morning feeling 98 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,580 terrible, not wanting to get out of bed because my head hurts and my nose is 99 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:59,440 congested and, and you know, we're back in that. Fortunately, I know because I did 100 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:00,020 mow the lawn 101 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:04,140 and it is that time of year that I'm like it is just hay fever. 102 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:05,469 That's what it is, yeah. It's not something else. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 103 00:05:05,469 --> 00:05:08,860 I'm not playing the, the COVID or hay fever game. So I feel rubbish in the 104 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:10,230 -morning but Re- -The COVID or hay fever game. 105 00:05:10,230 --> 00:05:10,840 ... Re just 106 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:12,930 had 107 00:05:13,620 --> 00:05:19,280 septoplasty because she's, like, she's always had bad sleep. Like she will sleep 108 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:22,060 -for 12 hours, wake up and still be tired. -Mm-hmm. 109 00:05:22,060 --> 00:05:26,060 And so, you know, gets to a point where you finally want to do something about 110 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:28,160 this. You're not gonna just accept that this is 111 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,480 what it is. And so she went and saw an ENT, an ear, nose and throat specialist 112 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,100 and they said, "You know, you are waking as you sleep 113 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,560 but it's not enough 114 00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:46,720 that you need to start looking at a CPAP." You know, face mask while you sleep kind 115 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:47,180 of thing. 116 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:49,960 -Yep, yep. -This option of the septoplasty was to go 117 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,100 in and to realign her turbinates because she had a deviated septum in her nose. 118 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:56,039 -Ah, okay. -So they go in there and... Like day 119 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,330 surgery, they go in there with a drill and they go, you know? 120 00:05:58,330 --> 00:06:00,390 -Oh. -Do whatever they do and sort it all out. 121 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:01,700 Oh, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 122 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:05,180 So it was like day surgery but she was, you know, she was under for it, of course. 123 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:08,840 They don't do this while you're awake and she woke up with-You know, like, no 124 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,420 bruising. They they do it pretty pretty good these days. Because, you know, we 125 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:15,680 needed to start mucking around in there around the place, it's like Oh, yeah. ... 126 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,520 right near the surface. So you would assume there'd be bruising and stuff, and 127 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,080 I'd have questions to answer for a for a few days after. Why has your wife got 128 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,020 black eyes and all that kind of stuff. But, um- 129 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:26,820 Just stay home, honey. Just stay home. I'll go do- 130 00:06:26,820 --> 00:06:28,070 -Yeah. So- -... I'll go do other stuff that you need 131 00:06:28,070 --> 00:06:30,060 -to focus on something else. -Yeah. So she was like ... She had a week 132 00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:34,280 off work which was which was nice, you know, took care of the kids. And it was 133 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:35,640 funny though because I said to her 134 00:06:36,340 --> 00:06:40,219 halfway through Saturday, like, she had this surgery on on Thursday, and I said to 135 00:06:40,219 --> 00:06:44,020 her halfway through Saturday, I said, "Look, I know that you had the kids for a 136 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:50,980 whole week while I was in Denver. However, you had the kids for a whole school 137 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:54,219 week where you get them up in the morning, you take them to school." 138 00:06:54,219 --> 00:06:56,820 -And then you say goodbye. Yes. Yes. -And you say bye bye, and then you and then 139 00:06:56,820 --> 00:06:58,320 you see them again in the afternoon. 140 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:00,880 Which, don't get me wrong- 141 00:07:01,539 --> 00:07:03,350 -You have them for a week -... don't get me wrong, it's still ... 142 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:05,269 Yeah. But don't get me wrong, it's still 143 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,539 hard work. But there's seven hours out of the day where they're not there. 144 00:07:10,539 --> 00:07:13,1000 -Agreed. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. -I had them Saturday. Right? I took them 145 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,340 grocery shopping in the morning. We we got home at lunchtime, and I'm like, crap. It 146 00:07:18,340 --> 00:07:22,240 is only lunchtime, and they're still going. Like, they wanna keep going. I'm 147 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:22,780 like, I 148 00:07:23,380 --> 00:07:27,580 I was so tired at the end of that weekend, like, more tired than I've ever been. 149 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:30,1000 -That's fine. -But long, long winded way of saying, like, 150 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,860 maybe you've got sleep problems, and this is why you're feeling tired. 151 00:07:33,860 --> 00:07:37,930 Maybe. Maybe I do. Yeah. Or or maybe it's just a seasonal thing too. I don't know. 152 00:07:37,930 --> 00:07:42,159 I'm not sure. That's a that is a fair question. Um, I do see- 153 00:07:42,159 --> 00:07:45,680 Just don't be telling me it's still a seasonal thing come December or come March 154 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,010 -if you like. -Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Let's let's keep- 155 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:48,330 You've gotta look into it. 156 00:07:48,330 --> 00:07:51,380 Let's keep checking in. Yeah. Let's keep checking in on this. We'll see we'll see 157 00:07:51,380 --> 00:07:54,500 what's going on here, and I think that's a this is a good you know, we'll we'll make 158 00:07:54,500 --> 00:07:56,820 this a recurring section of the of the show here. So 159 00:07:57,539 --> 00:08:01,400 hey, with that out of the way, I am actually really interested to hear about 160 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,330 something you've been chatting about with me recently, 161 00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:08,840 which is some of these fake HTTP stuff. So, you know, we've talked about this on 162 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,640 the show a number of times, this idea of, like, this gateway pattern and how we 163 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:19,080 structure it at Wilbur where, to give you a quick rundown, we will create a gateway 164 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,039 class which is responsible for newing up a client, setting up the base URL, any 165 00:08:23,039 --> 00:08:26,200 tokens that would need to be retrieved or pulled from the config to set up that 166 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,740 client. And then we will have methods that make calls to endpoints and handle any 167 00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:34,079 specifics around that endpoint, whether it's caching or whether it's rate limiting 168 00:08:34,079 --> 00:08:37,669 or whether it's, you know, massaging a response that we get back or have it 169 00:08:37,669 --> 00:08:40,840 handling an erroneous response and all those things, which is great. But then 170 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,579 what we'll do is we'll, uh, bind that into in the container, um, and we'll bind that 171 00:08:46,579 --> 00:08:50,280 to, you know, an an interface. Right? And that interface will be implemented not 172 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,200 only on the HTTP side of things, but also we'll have a fake that returns 173 00:08:54,819 --> 00:08:58,660 data that we have pulled probably from the API, gotten a real response, and then 174 00:08:58,660 --> 00:09:03,460 we'll sort of load that into the fake. And we'll have, um, different responses a la 175 00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:07,520 magic tokens. Right? So, you know, stripe back in the day, you'd have 4242 gives you 176 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,780 a valid response and 4141 gives you an invalid CVV, whatever. So we do something 177 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:16,200 similar to that. But I know that you guys are big Saloon users, which if you don't 178 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,200 know what that is, listener, uh, you should definitely go check that out. Sam 179 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,220 Carrey has an amazing package called Saloon. Very popular nowadays. And I'm 180 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:26,300 interested to hear kind of what you've been kicking around with that. So you've 181 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:30,079 been chatting about it a little bit, and I wanna get a clear picture of what exactly 182 00:09:30,079 --> 00:09:31,040 it is you're talking about 183 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:36,560 and if it solves some of the same problems or or what you got. So go. It's all it's 184 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,740 -all you, my friend. -Yeah. So, yeah, I 185 00:09:39,340 --> 00:09:39,600 we 186 00:09:40,260 --> 00:09:45,020 we're doing this integration at the moment where we had, like, some old, old library 187 00:09:45,940 --> 00:09:50,100 that was like, it's long since been deprecated, no longer maintained. So we 188 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:54,840 had copied the vendor code into our application code to integrate with 189 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:55,540 Salesforce. 190 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,649 And that was, you know, to to push leads in there, to pull contacts out, things 191 00:09:59,649 --> 00:10:02,880 -like that. -So it's like a PHP Salesforce SDK sort of 192 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:03,680 -idea? -Yeah. Basically. Yeah. 193 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:08,060 -Is that what it was? Okay. Okay. Sure. -But it was you know, it was like PHP very, 194 00:10:08,060 --> 00:10:08,900 very PHP 195 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:09,990 5 code. 196 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:13,560 -Okay. -But, yeah, long since unmaintained. And at 197 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:17,400 some point in the last 18 months, I think, like, fairly recently, we moved to 198 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,140 using this other library called Forest, f o r r e s t, 199 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:27,260 and it allowed us to directly run SOQL, so Salesforce object query language, I think 200 00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:27,919 -it is. -Interesting. 201 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,490 -Which is like the the version of SQL, uh- -Okay 202 00:10:31,490 --> 00:10:34,860 ... that you can use to query Salesforce. And we thought 203 00:10:34,860 --> 00:10:37,920 -Customize the Salesforce. Yeah. -This'd be a great solution. You know, we 204 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,819 can write the queries ourselves. We can do it. Um, but there was not really a good 205 00:10:41,819 --> 00:10:46,520 testing layer for it to the point where we were using mockery and we were creating 206 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,620 mock expectations that, you know, this method would be called with these 207 00:10:49,620 --> 00:10:51,920 arguments. It would return this stuff. And 208 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,940 the problem with that I mean, number 1, don't test what you don't own kind of 209 00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:57,460 -thing. -Oh, yep. 210 00:10:57,460 --> 00:11:03,260 But but number 2, mocks and I know that, um, JMack has been on an adventure trying 211 00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:07,420 to improve this in, uh, I think, Laravel specifically, 212 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,740 um, and he's gone off and he's been doing other things that have come up in the 213 00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:14,740 meantime. But he's been trying to improve the messaging around when a mock 214 00:11:14,740 --> 00:11:18,780 expectation fails. Because when a mock expectation fails, it just tells you, 215 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:23,400 like, mockery underscore some, like, hash or whatever that it's generated for this 216 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,819 thing. It's saying, expected this, but it didn't happen. 217 00:11:26,819 --> 00:11:27,960 -Yeah. Yeah. And it's very -And that's it. Like- 218 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,970 It's not it's not clear at all. The the error message itself is is horrible. Yeah. 219 00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:31,700 It's horrible. It tells you that the 220 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:34,860 expectation is not correct, but you don't know why. And so then what you end up 221 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:38,539 doing is, like, if you're a, quote unquote, rule developer, you will go and 222 00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:41,358 fire up xdebug and you would follow through and look at all these things. If 223 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,380 you're a Laravel developer, you go and start digging all over the place to see, 224 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:47,670 like, what was actually in this object. And and then you're looking, like, what is 225 00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:51,319 diff and whether you're using xdebug or you're using DD, you still have to look 226 00:11:51,319 --> 00:11:54,920 at, like, what is my expectation and what is in the thing. And some of these 227 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,599 Salesforce objects are quite large. So we've got 20 or 30 228 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,980 things in here, and you've got to look at, like, what's missing, what's added, 229 00:12:01,980 --> 00:12:04,920 what's different. Is it in a different order? Is it somewhere else in the 230 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,420 -response? -Yeah. Right. Yeah. 231 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:13,306 It's it's a whole thing. And so I was I was poring through the... Saloon docs 232 00:12:13,306 --> 00:12:18,136 a while back for some stuff, and I saw in there that someone had written 233 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:20,396 a Salesforce 234 00:12:21,036 --> 00:12:25,456 SDK using Saloon. I thought, "Great. I'm pulling that in immediately. I don't even 235 00:12:25,456 --> 00:12:28,116 have to read the doc, so I don't need to know any more about it. It's written with 236 00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:29,796 -Saloon, it's gonna be good." -Yep. 237 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:31,315 And what that has 238 00:12:32,136 --> 00:12:38,616 enabled us to do, uh, obviously is to use Saloon under the hood, which makes testing 239 00:12:38,616 --> 00:12:42,516 so much better because we can use Saloon fake. We can say, "I'm expecting these 240 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:45,936 res- requests to go out, I'm expecting these responses to come back." We can do 241 00:12:45,936 --> 00:12:48,456 Saloon fakes, we can... Like, you know, we can record fixtures- 242 00:12:48,456 --> 00:12:50,726 -So in the testing layer, you can, yeah- -In the testing layer 243 00:12:50,726 --> 00:12:51,756 ... record pictures and replay them back out. 244 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:52,476 -Fantastic. -Mm-hmm. Yep. 245 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:55,936 It has improved things a great deal to the point where like, "Okay, we're gonna 246 00:12:55,936 --> 00:13:00,956 replace this Forest library with the Saloon SDK." But as part of this, I've 247 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:07,636 been doing some exploration, which is like, I guess three-fold into, how do we, 248 00:13:07,636 --> 00:13:13,886 how do we do this kind of stuff with, um, local development? Like, I don't- 249 00:13:13,886 --> 00:13:15,055 -Yeah, that's the question -... want to be handing out- 250 00:13:15,056 --> 00:13:17,056 -That is the big question. -I don't wanna be handing out keys to 251 00:13:17,056 --> 00:13:22,696 people to access Salesforce. Um, we, we spin up and spin down Salesforce 252 00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:27,056 test environments as needed. Like, we don't typically keep them around. So, you 253 00:13:27,056 --> 00:13:27,496 -might have- -Sure 254 00:13:27,496 --> 00:13:31,276 ... credentials to do something now, but that, that environment might be gone at 255 00:13:31,276 --> 00:13:34,376 some point in the future when you come back to it. Um, obviously we don't wanna 256 00:13:34,376 --> 00:13:38,296 test in production 'cause you end up littering your Salesforce instance with 257 00:13:38,296 --> 00:13:43,396 all of these test accounts and things like that. And so I, I started going down the 258 00:13:43,396 --> 00:13:49,076 path of, okay, what does this look like to actually create a fake? And you and I 259 00:13:49,076 --> 00:13:53,396 have spoken about this, as you said previously, where maybe you can just call 260 00:13:53,396 --> 00:13:57,136 Saloon fake inside a service provider somewhere and record some fixtures and do 261 00:13:57,136 --> 00:14:01,996 all this kind of stuff. And so this, this then led to my second point of ex- 262 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:08,976 exploration, which was using AI. 'Cause yeah, I'm a big AI boy now, and I like to 263 00:14:08,976 --> 00:14:10,556 I like to play with stuff. So I've been using 264 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:17,096 Claude and I've been, you know, with open code, which is from the SST guys, um, Dax 265 00:14:17,096 --> 00:14:23,716 and, and Adam who are part of the, the Terminal Coffee, uh, empire, um, have been 266 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:27,096 building out this open code thing. Which is kind of like, it's like Claude Code. 267 00:14:27,096 --> 00:14:31,646 It's a, a Terminal application, but it allows you to hook into different 268 00:14:31,646 --> 00:14:35,236 providers and access different models through those providers. So we use GitHub 269 00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:40,235 Copilot, um, which means we can't use Claude as, as I understand it. Claude is 270 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:45,696 to access the Anthropic, I think, the OpenAI, whichever it is, their Claude 271 00:14:45,696 --> 00:14:48,006 -service using their Claude- -Yeah 272 00:14:48,006 --> 00:14:51,265 ... CLI. And then I think Cursor's got one and, you know, all these other companies 273 00:14:51,265 --> 00:14:56,316 have got one. So what open code allows us to do is to authenticate against GitHub, 274 00:14:57,196 --> 00:15:01,156 and then we have access to whatever models we have access to inside of GitHub 275 00:15:01,156 --> 00:15:04,096 Copilot. So I can use Claude to then do this stuff. So I've been in- 276 00:15:04,096 --> 00:15:06,236 -Interesting -... planning mode. I spend like 45 minutes 277 00:15:06,856 --> 00:15:09,856 just going through, like, "I wanna do this, I wanna do this." Like, blah, blah, 278 00:15:09,856 --> 00:15:13,476 blah. You know, come up with whatever we wanna do. Switch to build mode and say, 279 00:15:13,476 --> 00:15:18,235 "Okay, now go build that." And so what I've been doing, and it's been literally 280 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:21,836 days 'cause I'm like feeling my way through it. I'm not necessarily liking the 281 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:26,356 output or it's, it's partially implementing things. So, you know, which I 282 00:15:26,356 --> 00:15:30,276 think anyone that's been using AI for any period of time knows that this is kind of 283 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:34,016 the process. Treat it as a junior developer that you're pairing with, and 284 00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:39,856 that's typically how you're gonna go. So we have been building out a, a fake 285 00:15:39,896 --> 00:15:40,396 gateway, 286 00:15:41,076 --> 00:15:42,996 as you've done with Stripe, where 287 00:15:44,336 --> 00:15:49,376 in some instances, like if we wanna do a search for a contact or an account, 288 00:15:49,376 --> 00:15:53,036 there's like, here are the, here are the key phrases that you pass through. You 289 00:15:53,036 --> 00:15:56,856 know, search for Michael and you'll get like three results back that are like 290 00:15:56,856 --> 00:15:59,075 -Michael A, Michael B, Michael C. -Sure. 291 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:03,756 If you search for Michael Dorinda, it will return a single result, Michael Dorinda. 292 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:08,796 Um, and so we've done this. Uh, I, I reached out to Sam Curry, the author of 293 00:16:08,796 --> 00:16:12,176 Saloon, and I said, "What is the approach? Like, how do we do this?" And he said, 294 00:16:12,176 --> 00:16:15,316 "You know, there's a few people that have asked about this recently." And like a day 295 00:16:15,316 --> 00:16:20,016 after I'd asked about it, Alex Six from, um, Zillow who spoke at Arc on US, 296 00:16:20,856 --> 00:16:22,636 um, he, he had pinged Sam 297 00:16:23,496 --> 00:16:25,056 on X and was like, "Hey, 298 00:16:25,936 --> 00:16:29,156 is this possible?" And so, you know, we had this conversation about, yeah, we're 299 00:16:29,156 --> 00:16:32,816 exploring this at the moment. And what it essentially boils down to 300 00:16:33,716 --> 00:16:36,915 is hooking into Saloon's global middleware 301 00:16:37,776 --> 00:16:42,476 and, and putting our own handler in there that basically looks at, okay, is this 302 00:16:42,476 --> 00:16:46,396 enabled? Is our fake gateway enabled? So with an environment variable and a conf- 303 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:50,196 uh, environment variable and a config switch, you know, if this is enabled- 304 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:51,656 -Yeah, yeah -... everything should go through our 305 00:16:51,656 --> 00:16:53,816 -Salesforce mock handler. -Yeah. 306 00:16:53,816 --> 00:16:58,076 And then the, I've iterated on this a few times where I've landed with like this 307 00:16:58,076 --> 00:17:02,856 registry patent approach where we just register all of the, the response handlers 308 00:17:02,856 --> 00:17:07,896 we want. And each response class is then responsible for providing its own should 309 00:17:07,896 --> 00:17:11,476 handle method. And it will look at the pending request and say, "Okay, is this to 310 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:15,356 an endpoint that I'm in of interest of?" And so we've got 20 or 30 of these at the 311 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:19,276 moment, and it would just like spin through them all and go, "Okay, this is a 312 00:17:19,276 --> 00:17:24,735 post request to the contact standard object endpoint. I'm gonna intercept that 313 00:17:24,735 --> 00:17:29,616 request and I'm gonna return this response." And so we're then using Faker 314 00:17:30,816 --> 00:17:34,396 to just send back fake data. Um, 315 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:38,836 and then where you can, you can seed Faker 316 00:17:39,576 --> 00:17:42,496 -with a, with a value, right? -Okay. 317 00:17:42,496 --> 00:17:44,396 So that you get deterministic 318 00:17:45,116 --> 00:17:48,226 fake data back. So what we do is take all of- 319 00:17:48,226 --> 00:17:50,156 -I never heard of this. -Okay. So deterministic data 320 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:56,556 is where like you are, it's pseudo-random. Like it is random data, but it will 321 00:17:56,556 --> 00:18:02,116 always be the same random data based on that seed. So you pass it a number from 322 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:06,536 like one to whatever the upper limit is that it supports, and then it will see the 323 00:18:06,536 --> 00:18:11,856 random number generator so that when you call Faker whatever, 324 00:18:11,896 --> 00:18:16,728 it-Internally, it will process that. You know, it'll go through its array of 50 325 00:18:16,728 --> 00:18:21,588 names, and if you've got a seed of 3, it will always return the seventh value from 326 00:18:21,588 --> 00:18:23,888 that list of 50 names for first name. 327 00:18:24,708 --> 00:18:27,448 And then the next time you call it, it will always return the same value and 328 00:18:27,448 --> 00:18:30,888 then... So then when you are developing things, if you search for Michael, you're 329 00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:35,398 going to get the same Michael back every single time on every single machine. 330 00:18:36,748 --> 00:18:37,238 -Because if you- -Interesting 331 00:18:37,238 --> 00:18:40,888 ... are searching for Michael and you get a different fake value back, you know, in 332 00:18:40,888 --> 00:18:43,488 the UI context, it doesn't make sense, you know? 333 00:18:43,488 --> 00:18:45,327 -Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. -But with deterministic seeding, it means, 334 00:18:45,327 --> 00:18:49,838 okay, here is, here is the value that I want to base all of my random data on, and 335 00:18:49,838 --> 00:18:52,808 it will always do that. So what we do is we look at the body of that pending 336 00:18:52,808 --> 00:18:54,468 request. We take all of the inputs, 337 00:18:55,168 --> 00:19:00,268 we join them together, and then PHP has this function called CRC32, which will 338 00:19:00,268 --> 00:19:05,308 take a string and it will compute an integer value that represents what that 339 00:19:05,308 --> 00:19:10,148 is. And then we pass that value into, um, 340 00:19:11,268 --> 00:19:13,008 into Faker's seed method 341 00:19:13,768 --> 00:19:16,668 so that we're always getting this data back. And so- 342 00:19:16,668 --> 00:19:19,068 -Interesting -... we've, we've now built out a fairly 343 00:19:19,068 --> 00:19:25,408 robust, um, implementation that will always give us, like, pseudo-random data, 344 00:19:26,668 --> 00:19:29,768 but in a consistent way. So, like, if we're searching for something, you know, 345 00:19:29,768 --> 00:19:33,488 we can, we can build our expectations on it, we can build tests on it 'cause we 346 00:19:33,488 --> 00:19:36,868 know that, like, the fake data won't change every time we run the test. We know 347 00:19:36,868 --> 00:19:40,158 that we're always gonna get the same set of data back. So we can actually write 348 00:19:40,158 --> 00:19:44,788 tests against all of these endpoints with the fake gateway enabled, knowing that 349 00:19:44,788 --> 00:19:47,828 we're gonna get back this specific data. That then extends- 350 00:19:47,828 --> 00:19:49,818 -So when you say you seed it, you're not- -Yes 351 00:19:49,818 --> 00:19:51,458 -... seeding a database. -We're not seeding a database, no. 352 00:19:51,458 --> 00:19:53,458 'Cause they're not models in your application. 353 00:19:53,458 --> 00:19:55,628 -No. -You're seeding the responses that are 354 00:19:55,628 --> 00:19:58,208 gonna come back from your mock handler for Salesforce. 355 00:19:58,208 --> 00:19:59,898 -Correct. Yeah. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. 356 00:19:59,898 --> 00:20:01,888 -Uh-huh. -So it's basically like with Faker, you're 357 00:20:01,888 --> 00:20:05,828 almost creating... I mean, it's not a database, but it's almost a database 358 00:20:05,828 --> 00:20:08,648 because it's pseudo-random. I mean, it's deterministic, right? So you're- 359 00:20:08,648 --> 00:20:09,768 -Mm-hmm. -When I'm hearing you say, like, you're 360 00:20:09,768 --> 00:20:12,588 referencing, like, an ID, it's basically like you're referencing an ID in a 361 00:20:12,588 --> 00:20:15,398 database that actually does not exist because it's just seeded- 362 00:20:15,398 --> 00:20:18,088 -Correct. Yeah. -You know, seeded fake data, essentially. 363 00:20:18,088 --> 00:20:18,908 -So- -Wow. Yeah 364 00:20:18,908 --> 00:20:20,658 ... you could think of it almost as a 365 00:20:21,708 --> 00:20:24,828 sort of database, I suppose. I mean, it's not a database, but, like, 366 00:20:25,828 --> 00:20:28,668 same idea, right? Where it's deterministic, you can write tests against 367 00:20:28,668 --> 00:20:30,088 -it 'cause it's not gonna change. -Right. 368 00:20:30,088 --> 00:20:34,058 So it's almost seeded data, but you don't have models backing this stuff. 369 00:20:34,058 --> 00:20:36,008 -Correct. -So you have to use some other sort of 370 00:20:36,008 --> 00:20:37,047 -mechanism to do so. -Yeah. 371 00:20:37,048 --> 00:20:38,968 -Okay. -So you're, you're seeding the random 372 00:20:38,968 --> 00:20:41,688 number generator that PHP uses, which is using, like- 373 00:20:41,688 --> 00:20:43,808 -Yep. Yep, yep -... MT Rand or whatever under the hood. 374 00:20:43,808 --> 00:20:47,588 Yeah. MT... Like, it's a PHP function under the hood. So if you always want to 375 00:20:47,588 --> 00:20:52,148 get the... This is quoting from the Faker docs. "If you want to always get the same 376 00:20:52,148 --> 00:20:56,128 generated data, for instance, when using Faker for unit testing purposes, the 377 00:20:56,128 --> 00:21:00,628 generator offers a seed method which seeds the random number generator." And the 378 00:21:00,628 --> 00:21:04,908 crux of that is that calling the same script twice with the same seed produces 379 00:21:04,908 --> 00:21:05,888 the same results. 380 00:21:06,548 --> 00:21:09,318 -Interesting. Okay. -And this, and this- 381 00:21:09,318 --> 00:21:12,348 -Okay -... is then why it becomes helpful in, in 382 00:21:12,348 --> 00:21:17,508 the... Like, in a, in a UI context where if you are seeding based on the inputs, no 383 00:21:17,508 --> 00:21:20,028 matter what you put in there... Like, if I put Jake in there 384 00:21:20,728 --> 00:21:25,528 or I put Michael in there or I put Eric in there or I put Sam in there or whatever, 385 00:21:25,528 --> 00:21:29,268 as long as the inputs match, you will always get the same results back, which 386 00:21:29,268 --> 00:21:33,107 makes the testing a bit more predictable. If you hand that off to a QA team or, you 387 00:21:33,108 --> 00:21:38,108 know, for testing, or manual whatever, you know that you, that it's... Like, it's 388 00:21:38,108 --> 00:21:41,768 not gonna make people stop and think, "Wait, what happened there? 'Cause I got 389 00:21:41,768 --> 00:21:43,898 two different results back." It's like, no, if I search for Jake- 390 00:21:43,898 --> 00:21:46,848 -Yeah, I guess, yeah -... the same set of results come back. 391 00:21:46,848 --> 00:21:53,498 Right. So it's like you only... The only benefit that you lose of fake data is that 392 00:21:53,498 --> 00:21:58,528 the randomness of it is sometimes a bit of a fuzz test against, you know, can your 393 00:21:58,528 --> 00:22:02,028 code handle values that are not typical sort of deal? 394 00:22:02,028 --> 00:22:02,648 -Yeah. -Right? 395 00:22:02,648 --> 00:22:05,068 -Yeah. -And so that, that's part of the idea of, 396 00:22:05,068 --> 00:22:07,948 like, Faker, which is like, "Hey, it should be able to generate any value and 397 00:22:07,948 --> 00:22:11,308 it should always work." But it's like, there are other considerations to be made 398 00:22:11,308 --> 00:22:14,208 too, and so you're just making a trade-off. You're saying, "Well, we're 399 00:22:14,208 --> 00:22:17,768 okay with losing some of the benefit of that randomness for the predictability of 400 00:22:17,768 --> 00:22:20,668 having deterministic values that are getting seeded in here," and for all the 401 00:22:20,668 --> 00:22:22,428 other me- reasons you mentioned. Interesting. 402 00:22:22,428 --> 00:22:23,988 -Yeah. -I've never actually heard of this, so 403 00:22:23,988 --> 00:22:24,828 -I'll, I'll check into that. -Yeah. 404 00:22:24,828 --> 00:22:28,408 -That sounds really cool. -And so in, in the context of, like, 405 00:22:28,408 --> 00:22:33,008 actually opening up the application in the browser and, like, using it, I think it 406 00:22:33,008 --> 00:22:33,278 -makes- -Yeah, yeah 407 00:22:33,278 --> 00:22:35,908 ... much more sense than having totally random data. 408 00:22:35,908 --> 00:22:38,468 -Mm-hmm. -Because if you think about it, if I'm, if 409 00:22:38,468 --> 00:22:41,448 I'm hitting Salesforce and searching for Jake, well, I expect- 410 00:22:41,448 --> 00:22:42,868 -Yeah -... Jake's data to always come back. I 411 00:22:42,868 --> 00:22:43,558 -wanna see- -Absolutely, yeah 412 00:22:43,558 --> 00:22:47,128 ... the same results. And so that's where this comes in. And, like, this stuff has 413 00:22:47,128 --> 00:22:51,588 been in Faker, I don't know, since forever. And the reason that, like, I'm, 414 00:22:51,588 --> 00:22:56,348 I, I know this fancy word, deterministic, is 'cause I built this, um, avatar 415 00:22:56,348 --> 00:23:01,808 generator for Laracon AU, where I wanted it to be random, but I wanted it to always 416 00:23:01,808 --> 00:23:06,158 be the same for a given input. So if I'm gonna generate an image- 417 00:23:06,158 --> 00:23:08,688 Yeah, it's, it's almost like functional, right? I mean, it's f- it's almost like 418 00:23:08,688 --> 00:23:11,168 functional programming where it's like given the same inputs, you should expect 419 00:23:11,168 --> 00:23:13,328 -to get the same outputs every time. Yeah. -Yeah. Yeah. 420 00:23:14,348 --> 00:23:18,468 Um, and so, yeah, that, that, that has worked really well in that context and 421 00:23:18,468 --> 00:23:23,428 provides us, like, much more useful output. I'm, I'm not sure... I still need 422 00:23:23,428 --> 00:23:27,708 to do a little bit of finagling to make sure that I'm actually happy with 423 00:23:28,528 --> 00:23:30,428 -what has been built. Because- -Yeah 424 00:23:30,428 --> 00:23:33,588 ... largely it has been just, like, driving the AI and letting it come up- 425 00:23:33,588 --> 00:23:35,148 -Yep, yep -... with stuff and fixing things as they 426 00:23:35,148 --> 00:23:37,088 come. But it's, it's been pretty good in terms of 427 00:23:38,128 --> 00:23:39,028 building the code, 428 00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:43,688 finding problems. Like, I've got it into this loop now where we put into our Claude 429 00:23:43,688 --> 00:23:44,168 file, 430 00:23:44,948 --> 00:23:45,238 um, 431 00:23:45,948 --> 00:23:49,328 you know, make sure that you always run PHP unit on the test. Make sure you always 432 00:23:49,328 --> 00:23:52,808 run CS Fixer. Make sure you always run Stan, so if you've introduced any 433 00:23:52,808 --> 00:23:56,128 violations, like, it'll go back and fix those things as well, which has been very 434 00:23:56,128 --> 00:24:01,938 helpful. Um, so I think the, the code is robust. I think the, the... Then the third 435 00:24:01,938 --> 00:24:03,518 exploration is, okay, we've built 436 00:24:04,148 --> 00:24:09,108 this thing. Is this something that we can... I don't know if we can package it 437 00:24:09,108 --> 00:24:13,388 up or if we produce a set of guidelines or something that go, "Okay, now for the 438 00:24:13,388 --> 00:24:18,535 other things that we want it to have..."... mock gateways for. You know, 439 00:24:18,535 --> 00:24:23,136 for a lender integration with a bank or for a provider of, like, you know, Equifax 440 00:24:23,136 --> 00:24:26,156 or something like that where we're doing these lookups. Well, we- we want the- the 441 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:29,074 same data to always come back, but we don't wanna hit Equifax 'cause that cost 442 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:31,775 -money every time you do that. -Again, and it will... And like you said, 443 00:24:31,775 --> 00:24:34,315 it's deterministic in a sense. You don't have to spin up an Equifax- 444 00:24:34,315 --> 00:24:35,995 -Right -... non-production environment sort of 445 00:24:35,995 --> 00:24:36,226 -deal. -Correct. 446 00:24:36,226 --> 00:24:40,076 Like, it's like you just get all those benefits that you're talking about. Now, 447 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:44,916 there are, you know, there does end up being some drawbacks, but, I mean, you 448 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:47,515 know, there's drawbacks with the current approach. So you just have to... It's the 449 00:24:47,515 --> 00:24:48,856 -trade-off, right? -Yeah. 450 00:24:48,856 --> 00:24:51,896 -Um, you know. -So in- in our tests, right, in our tests, 451 00:24:51,896 --> 00:24:57,555 we would still want to- to do this kind of stuff with actual fake data. And that's 452 00:24:57,555 --> 00:25:00,795 where we'd dip into the Saloon fakes, and we would use our fixtures and all of that 453 00:25:00,795 --> 00:25:03,745 kinda stuff. In terms of actually using it 454 00:25:05,015 --> 00:25:06,426 -by hand- -Yeah, yeah 455 00:25:06,426 --> 00:25:10,916 ... in the browser, yeah. Then, but- so then the exploration was, okay, how do I 456 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:11,436 build this 457 00:25:12,116 --> 00:25:12,856 infrastructure 458 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:18,076 where I've got, like, a config file? Okay, okay, here is Salesforce, but now here is 459 00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:23,315 Equifax, here is bank A, here is bank B, here is lender A, all of these kinda 460 00:25:23,315 --> 00:25:27,255 things. And I just configure them in there, and they'll register themselves, 461 00:25:28,035 --> 00:25:31,366 and then they'll find, you know, okay, this is the thing that needs to hit this. 462 00:25:31,366 --> 00:25:35,216 And it all goes into Saloon's global middleware and whatever needs to- to deal 463 00:25:35,216 --> 00:25:39,555 with any given request. And we can build these over time. So I think I'm happy 464 00:25:39,555 --> 00:25:41,876 enough with it that I think that it will work, 465 00:25:42,535 --> 00:25:45,876 and it seems to cover all of the scenarios that exist currently 466 00:25:46,976 --> 00:25:51,775 until we start using it in practice and figuring out, okay, how do we 467 00:25:53,275 --> 00:25:57,275 create the next gateway, the next mock, the next mock, you know, and actually 468 00:25:57,275 --> 00:26:04,015 using it. That will be the determining factor about if this approach is actually 469 00:26:04,015 --> 00:26:07,875 robust enough to be that flexible across the board, so. 470 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:10,856 -Yeah, yeah. -We'll see. We- we might revisit that in a, 471 00:26:10,856 --> 00:26:14,836 in a few episodes and see if we've made any progress on it. 472 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:17,216 Yeah, it's like you're trying to look into the crystal ball and determine what the 473 00:26:17,216 --> 00:26:19,616 -future's gonna hold, right? It's like- -Yeah. 474 00:26:19,616 --> 00:26:24,054 It's- it's so funny, like, I... We talked to... We talked to the dev team about 475 00:26:24,056 --> 00:26:26,395 this, and they're totally on board with that- that approach where it's like 476 00:26:26,395 --> 00:26:29,896 sometimes you just gotta ship it and see. You know what I mean? Like, just- just 477 00:26:29,896 --> 00:26:33,636 push the button and, like, you're not gonna have the final answer. But, like, 478 00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:37,835 we're not building pianos here. Like, we can go in and change the code. Like, it's 479 00:26:37,835 --> 00:26:40,916 not a big deal. You know what I mean? It's like it doesn't have to be perfect the 480 00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:44,556 first time. It just has to be good enough that it's not gonna break everything. And 481 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:48,235 if it's good enough, then it's like you can make modifications as you go, right? 482 00:26:48,235 --> 00:26:51,235 Um, but trying to make predictions about how it's going to be used everywhere, it's 483 00:26:51,235 --> 00:26:55,676 just impossible. And I feel like my IT team, they are on that train. They're 484 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:58,275 like, "We have to have all the variables solved before we push the button." It's 485 00:26:58,275 --> 00:26:59,335 -like, you don't. -Mm-hmm. 486 00:26:59,335 --> 00:27:00,176 -You don't. -Mm-hmm. 487 00:27:00,176 --> 00:27:04,255 You just need to have enough information to make a good decision and then push it 488 00:27:04,255 --> 00:27:07,976 and see what happens and then learn and move from there. But you can make 489 00:27:07,976 --> 00:27:11,696 decisions and make changes a lot faster that way than you can hemming and hawing 490 00:27:11,696 --> 00:27:14,275 and waiting around and trying to get the perfect answer. And it's like you won't 491 00:27:14,275 --> 00:27:17,515 have the perfect answer until you actually start moving, then you're gonna figure it 492 00:27:17,515 --> 00:27:22,956 out. So, um, but the other part I was gonna say is, like, this registration 493 00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:26,556 piece that you're talking about where, like, you're registering all the different 494 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:29,876 responses and things like that. And I'm sure you'll find a way to organize this 495 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:33,656 well, but, like, right now, two things. Number 1, they're probably tied to actual 496 00:27:33,656 --> 00:27:39,815 -endpoints, I'm guessing. -Yeah, so the... Each response has its own 497 00:27:39,815 --> 00:27:44,456 should-handle method, and it gets past the- the pending request object. So it 498 00:27:44,515 --> 00:27:47,876 goes and looks like it... You c- 'cause then you've got access to the request 499 00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:51,156 itself, and you can figure out, do I need to intercept this or not? And 500 00:27:52,295 --> 00:27:56,815 depending on what it is, you know, sometimes it's- it's enough to just look 501 00:27:56,815 --> 00:27:57,035 at 502 00:27:57,936 --> 00:28:03,176 the endpoint. Sometimes we wanna look at the endpoint and the body and go... 503 00:28:03,176 --> 00:28:08,235 Because then we've got for authentication, for example, we've got an email, like a 504 00:28:08,235 --> 00:28:12,255 specific email address for a successful login. We've got a specific email address 505 00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:16,315 for a failed login, a specific email address for, like, a- an account that 506 00:28:16,315 --> 00:28:20,876 doesn't exist, like all of these kind of things. So some of it gets a bit grim. Um, 507 00:28:21,616 --> 00:28:23,436 some of these methods have got some 508 00:28:25,335 --> 00:28:28,626 creative regexes that Claude has written in there. 509 00:28:28,626 --> 00:28:30,656 -Yeah. -Which may or may not be the most 510 00:28:30,656 --> 00:28:31,975 -appropriate course of action. -Yeah. 511 00:28:31,976 --> 00:28:36,056 But you... I mean, in- within the context of each of those response classes, you can 512 00:28:36,056 --> 00:28:39,196 do whatever you want to determine if it should be handled. 513 00:28:39,196 --> 00:28:41,436 Yeah. And so I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out is, like, how do you 514 00:28:41,436 --> 00:28:44,735 co-locate the code that's going to be handling or that's gonna be responsible 515 00:28:44,735 --> 00:28:48,176 for figuring all that out? And I'm sure it's, like, you can have, like, some class 516 00:28:48,176 --> 00:28:52,295 double, you know, dot op generate or a class dot op register handlers or 517 00:28:52,295 --> 00:28:54,356 something like that, where you can kind of just say, like- 518 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:56,076 -Right -... for this particular type of response, 519 00:28:56,076 --> 00:29:00,476 we're gonna have a class named this that's going to be, you know, by convention, 520 00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:03,876 it's gonna match the naming like this, but it's gonna be called, you know, blah, 521 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:05,896 blah, blah, response register handlers class. 522 00:29:05,896 --> 00:29:07,795 -Yeah. Yeah. -And then, you know, you just call that, 523 00:29:07,795 --> 00:29:09,576 -and there you go. And, and so you can- -Yeah 524 00:29:09,576 --> 00:29:11,356 ... break it up so it's not like some massive 525 00:29:12,076 --> 00:29:16,116 just config file, essentially. You know, there's actually some testability even 526 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:20,446 around your- your registrations and things like that, if you needed it to be as, uh, 527 00:29:20,446 --> 00:29:22,856 -as sophisticated as that. But- -Yeah. 528 00:29:22,856 --> 00:29:25,535 -Maybe not. -At- at the moment, this, like, registry 529 00:29:25,535 --> 00:29:28,396 that we have, it just, like, you 530 00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:35,556 pass it a, a namespaced path, like app/gateway/sales floor- 531 00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:40,716 salesforce/fake/responses, right? And it will go and look in there, and it will 532 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:45,416 look through... Like, it just looks through all of the files in there. And if, 533 00:29:45,416 --> 00:29:48,795 if it's a non-abstract class and it implements an interface that we've got on 534 00:29:48,795 --> 00:29:49,896 there, it will then register it 535 00:29:51,136 --> 00:29:54,596 as a, as a handler. And then it will... And then the 536 00:29:55,255 --> 00:29:57,476 Saloon is then responsible for passing all of those 537 00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:02,755 things through and figuring out, should I be intercepting this request? So it is- 538 00:30:02,755 --> 00:30:04,656 -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm -... it has been done in such a way where, 539 00:30:04,656 --> 00:30:08,576 like, the registry will go and just, like, discover all of these things 540 00:30:08,576 --> 00:30:12,616 automatically and then just slot them in there. So definitely don't run it in 541 00:30:12,616 --> 00:30:14,085 -production. -Right, right. 542 00:30:14,085 --> 00:30:18,255 Because you could be registering, like, you know...... dozens to hundreds of 543 00:30:18,255 --> 00:30:22,255 classes for all of your Saloon implementations. Um, but locally, like, it 544 00:30:22,255 --> 00:30:26,616 doesn't matter too much. Our machines are so overpowered and over-provisioned that- 545 00:30:26,696 --> 00:30:26,985 Totally 546 00:30:26,985 --> 00:30:30,754 ... having this do it. No, and especially if you're just enabling them one by one. 547 00:30:30,755 --> 00:30:32,356 So there's, like, the top level 548 00:30:33,096 --> 00:30:35,856 is this thing that spins through the config and then registers all the 549 00:30:35,856 --> 00:30:39,196 handlers, and then each handler is responsible for then going and registering 550 00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:42,295 all of its responses. So if you've got them all disabled, it'll just spin through 551 00:30:42,295 --> 00:30:45,716 that top level four or five or ten or however many integrations you've got 552 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:48,696 fairly quickly, and it'll just do nothing. Like, we just filter them out of the 553 00:30:48,696 --> 00:30:49,176 collection. 554 00:30:49,936 --> 00:30:50,264 -So- -Yes 555 00:30:50,264 --> 00:30:53,275 ... I would like to share some code in time once I've- 556 00:30:53,275 --> 00:30:55,616 -Yeah, absolutely -... you know, happy that it is, it is 557 00:30:55,616 --> 00:30:59,775 actually a sensible approach. But, you know, early indications, um, 558 00:31:00,876 --> 00:31:02,616 with, like, just the Salesforce 559 00:31:03,696 --> 00:31:09,376 mock, uh, seems to be good. The proof will be in the pudding of whether or not it 560 00:31:09,376 --> 00:31:14,495 actually extends to other handlers. And I've been trying to kind of guide the AI 561 00:31:14,495 --> 00:31:18,116 to make sure that this is extensible. And anytime we start duplicating things, it's 562 00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:21,435 like, "Okay, let's pull this out, let's hoist this up to the top-level namespace, 563 00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:25,726 let's, you know, make sure this is all possible." 'Cause it is something that is, 564 00:31:25,726 --> 00:31:29,576 in my mind, that, like, we need to be able to do this. So, I think the, the main 565 00:31:29,576 --> 00:31:32,976 thing is just... Salesforce is a very 566 00:31:34,696 --> 00:31:40,076 large thing. Like, there's a big surface area of things that you can do. And so 567 00:31:40,076 --> 00:31:43,136 there's lots of overlap to the same endpoints. But when you've got discrete 568 00:31:43,136 --> 00:31:47,936 endpoints, it's much easier to have, like, a common thing that just, like, injects 569 00:31:47,936 --> 00:31:54,295 fake data based on the request kind of thing, so. I, I, I feel good about it, but 570 00:31:54,295 --> 00:31:58,196 I'm still, um, cautious about 571 00:31:59,055 --> 00:32:02,416 how well that works as we start integrating more. So we'll see how that 572 00:32:02,416 --> 00:32:06,035 -goes in time. -That's exciting, dude. Yeah, I'm excited 573 00:32:06,035 --> 00:32:10,515 to hear about that. That's, um, that sounds really cool. Uh, yeah, so we'll 574 00:32:10,515 --> 00:32:13,495 follow up on that in future shows. A couple of things I wanted to share real 575 00:32:13,495 --> 00:32:19,456 quick before we wrap this one up. Bond is a new thing by Filip 576 00:32:19,456 --> 00:32:25,085 Gagnik, Gagniks. I don't know how to say his last name. Anyway, he's a Livewire and 577 00:32:25,085 --> 00:32:31,136 Alpine dude, and he just released this library, Bond, uh, which is this 578 00:32:31,136 --> 00:32:32,255 interesting way 579 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:33,975 to 580 00:32:34,616 --> 00:32:39,795 give you essentially, like, fully reactive, optimistic UIs on the front end 581 00:32:39,795 --> 00:32:46,755 that are also Livewire-aware. So you get the best of front-ends, like with 582 00:32:46,755 --> 00:32:50,015 modern JavaScript tooling, like being able to do includes and things like that, 583 00:32:50,616 --> 00:32:52,876 um, and bundling and 584 00:32:53,775 --> 00:32:55,136 all those, all those pieces, 585 00:32:55,896 --> 00:33:01,436 and then also all the benefits of Livewire. And so in his demo, that he put 586 00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:02,896 out a video today about this, 587 00:33:03,755 --> 00:33:08,156 um, he goes through and shows with this counter component, it's fully reactive, 588 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:11,815 and it's like he can plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus on this counter. 589 00:33:11,815 --> 00:33:14,896 And then in the bottom he has like, "Here's what the Livewire server rendered 590 00:33:14,896 --> 00:33:16,525 -value is." And you can see- -Hm 591 00:33:16,525 --> 00:33:19,315 ... that on the front end he's able to click it as fast as he wants and the front 592 00:33:19,315 --> 00:33:22,396 end stays reactive and it doesn't make those back-end calls, and then it sort of, 593 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:27,295 like, lazily updates that background, that background, um, amount. And then when 594 00:33:27,295 --> 00:33:31,335 it makes a round trip, it ends up updating that, that thing on the front end 595 00:33:31,335 --> 00:33:37,616 as well. Um, but your front end allows you to continue to go just as fast as the 596 00:33:37,616 --> 00:33:39,235 browser front end will allow you to, as long 597 00:33:39,235 --> 00:33:40,636 -Yeah -... as long as the, you know, user's 598 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:44,376 machine is able to catch up or, you know, keep up with your JavaScript, uh, front 599 00:33:44,376 --> 00:33:48,775 end interactions. It will take care of sort of eventually syncing in the back end 600 00:33:48,775 --> 00:33:50,495 -which is really, really cool. -Mm-hmm. 601 00:33:50,495 --> 00:33:56,176 We've needed this in a couple projects, and, um, he's got some, uh... It's just 602 00:33:56,176 --> 00:33:59,096 very interesting. It's got TypeScript support, um, 603 00:34:00,315 --> 00:34:01,116 -super, super cool. -Interesting. 604 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:03,476 -So Vite basically will pull out- -Do you wanna- 605 00:34:03,476 --> 00:34:05,755 -Go ahead. -You'll have to send me a link so I can put 606 00:34:05,755 --> 00:34:06,616 -it in the show notes. -Yeah. 607 00:34:06,616 --> 00:34:08,716 -It sounds interesting. -Yeah, absolutely, I will. And I'll, I'll 608 00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:10,875 send you the, uh, the video that he made here. 609 00:34:10,875 --> 00:34:12,235 -Mm-hmm. -It's really, really good. Uh, Wilbur 610 00:34:12,235 --> 00:34:18,096 Powery, uh, talked about it, um, today in our, in our dev chat. So there's the video 611 00:34:18,096 --> 00:34:22,976 and then I will send you the open source repo as well. Both look really, really 612 00:34:22,976 --> 00:34:26,136 cool. It's a nine-minute video. You should definitely check it out. Really well 613 00:34:26,136 --> 00:34:30,716 done. Uh, he seems like he, he essentially manuscripted his video that he was gonna 614 00:34:30,716 --> 00:34:34,855 do. It's, it's nine minutes and it's just pure code. Like- 615 00:34:34,855 --> 00:34:37,156 -Nice. -... doesn't stumble over one word. It's so 616 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:41,246 well rehearsed. It's the best video on a new thing that I've seen people, you know, 617 00:34:41,246 --> 00:34:43,735 started to put out in a while. It's really, really good. So 618 00:34:44,435 --> 00:34:49,815 shout out, Philip. Good job. Secondly, uh, we've been talking about our journey, uh, 619 00:34:49,815 --> 00:34:53,995 at our company of restructuring a lot of our roles and permissions and things like 620 00:34:53,996 --> 00:34:54,295 -that. -Mm-hmm. 621 00:34:54,295 --> 00:34:59,336 And how we've sort of split the responsibilities between, uh, basically 622 00:34:59,336 --> 00:35:02,656 saying our application's only responsibility is to check permissions 623 00:35:02,656 --> 00:35:04,086 -with gate checks. -Yes. 624 00:35:04,086 --> 00:35:10,935 And then what we've done is we have bound those particular abilities to AD groups. 625 00:35:10,935 --> 00:35:15,016 And we've done that using... In AD, I mean active directory. We've done that using, 626 00:35:15,016 --> 00:35:21,216 uh, enums and enum attributes, which I swear is one of the most productive secret 627 00:35:21,216 --> 00:35:25,956 ninja combinations ever. Enums with attributes is just- 628 00:35:25,956 --> 00:35:28,776 -Mm-hmm -... awesome. It's so cool. Um, it allows 629 00:35:28,776 --> 00:35:33,796 you to have, like, type safety and also to bind additional pieces of information 630 00:35:33,796 --> 00:35:37,856 directly next to enums, which I just absolutely love. So really, really cool 631 00:35:37,856 --> 00:35:41,796 combination. I'm liking that. And I feel like we've arrived at some conclusions, 632 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:46,435 um, about how we've found to best structure some of those things, 633 00:35:46,435 --> 00:35:50,375 specifically regarding, like, departments, job titles, and stuff like that. So, um, 634 00:35:50,375 --> 00:35:53,496 I'm interested to share some of those maybe in a couple weeks and- 635 00:35:53,496 --> 00:35:55,196 -Mm-hmm -... talk about that and some of the 636 00:35:55,196 --> 00:35:58,856 discoveries we've made, and maybe talk about this Bond thing too. We are- 637 00:35:58,856 --> 00:36:02,556 -Yeah -... right now in the process of creating a 638 00:36:02,616 --> 00:36:07,875 two-way interactive texting experience through SMS. So people who wanna get hold 639 00:36:07,875 --> 00:36:12,174 of our agents, they can do so through SMS. We're using Twilio Conversations. 640 00:36:12,176 --> 00:36:16,424 But...... we're pulling a lot of the Twilio Conversation stuff local. We're 641 00:36:16,424 --> 00:36:19,094 -saving records on our side. -Mm-hmm. 642 00:36:19,094 --> 00:36:21,883 Um, Twilio's, like, the source of truth, but we'll pull those down to our side, so 643 00:36:21,884 --> 00:36:25,364 we have database records then can- can basically enrich that data with our own 644 00:36:25,364 --> 00:36:28,684 data. Um, and we're using a LiveWire front end. We're building on a LiveWire front 645 00:36:28,684 --> 00:36:33,104 end, which is great, but this idea of, like, the optimistic UI is very 646 00:36:33,104 --> 00:36:34,394 -attractive- -Mm-hmm. Yeah 647 00:36:34,394 --> 00:36:36,804 ... because sometimes it does, it can feel a little bit laggy. You know what I mean? 648 00:36:36,804 --> 00:36:40,524 If you're doing, like, high volume interactions back and forth, or you're 649 00:36:40,524 --> 00:36:43,104 trying to say, like, "Who's..." You know, "Which one of our team members is 650 00:36:43,104 --> 00:36:46,644 currently in this conversation?" How are we able to, you know, using presence 651 00:36:46,644 --> 00:36:48,844 channels or some of those things. Sometimes it can feel a little bit laggy, 652 00:36:48,844 --> 00:36:51,564 or notifications if a new thing comes in. You know, you have to kind of loop over- 653 00:36:51,564 --> 00:36:52,884 -Yeah -... a bunch of stuff in the background. 654 00:36:52,884 --> 00:36:57,724 Anyway, um, I'm interested to see if this is something we can start using and, um, 655 00:36:57,724 --> 00:37:00,604 since Wilbur Power is the lead on that project, and he's the one who discovered 656 00:37:00,604 --> 00:37:03,454 this library, I'm interested to see if this is something we might actually use in 657 00:37:03,454 --> 00:37:08,843 the next couple of weeks as well. So, looking forward to that in the next show, 658 00:37:08,844 --> 00:37:12,484 -I suppose. -Yeah. Yeah, so, um, Ash Allen, I think it 659 00:37:12,484 --> 00:37:17,004 was, tweeted something out about putting methods on enums. 660 00:37:17,664 --> 00:37:20,604 -Okay. Yeah, yeah. -Um, to, like, to- to return a label for 661 00:37:20,604 --> 00:37:24,124 something. Because, you know, your cases and your names don't always match up with 662 00:37:24,124 --> 00:37:27,884 what or how you wanna present that to the user, so he was talking about, you know, 663 00:37:27,884 --> 00:37:30,724 having a ToLabel method for things that would then return 664 00:37:31,484 --> 00:37:34,704 something that you could just put into your UI as opposed to what you're storing 665 00:37:34,704 --> 00:37:38,164 in the database. And then someone had put- mentioned in there that, yeah, you can 666 00:37:38,164 --> 00:37:43,884 create attributes here that target, um, like, the constants but, you know, enum 667 00:37:43,884 --> 00:37:48,604 members in that case, where you could put like a pound square bracket label 668 00:37:48,604 --> 00:37:53,464 whatever, and then you've got labels available through that as well. So, I 669 00:37:53,464 --> 00:37:57,684 think that's a, a, a, as you say, a really powerful combination and it gives you a 670 00:37:57,684 --> 00:37:58,544 lot of flexibility 671 00:37:59,404 --> 00:38:02,984 across enums, not just... Like, I don't have to create an, you know, a label 672 00:38:02,984 --> 00:38:06,924 method here or ToLabel and then a map and then, you know, match the value to 673 00:38:06,924 --> 00:38:09,724 whatever. You can just put it straight there on the, um, 674 00:38:11,064 --> 00:38:15,164 on the- the enum member itself, and then you can do it on a case by case basis. 675 00:38:15,164 --> 00:38:18,244 Like, you would expose the label method directly and would say, like, "Hey, is 676 00:38:18,244 --> 00:38:21,863 there an attribute here?" or return the value of the attribute. Otherwise, you 677 00:38:21,863 --> 00:38:26,804 might do, like, a string snake or a string title or whatever it is to, you know, 678 00:38:26,804 --> 00:38:30,964 have some fallback where you wanna do it that way. So, yeah, I- I- 679 00:38:30,964 --> 00:38:34,824 -Yep. Yep. Really, really powerful combo. -I do- I do think enums and attributes go 680 00:38:34,824 --> 00:38:38,944 -together like lamb and tuna fish. -Yeah. Lamb and tuna fish. I've not heard 681 00:38:38,944 --> 00:38:44,464 that. That is a new one on me, and, uh, I love it. I- I will add it to my list- 682 00:38:44,464 --> 00:38:46,004 -Pretty sure it was from Big Daddy -... of things that I tell my friends. 683 00:38:47,224 --> 00:38:48,514 -I- I will tell my friends when- -Big Daddy originals 684 00:38:48,514 --> 00:38:51,624 ... when we talk about Australian colloquialisms. So this is not a, this is 685 00:38:51,624 --> 00:38:53,933 not an Australian thing? Lamb and tuna fish? 686 00:38:53,933 --> 00:38:54,204 -No. -Oh. 687 00:38:54,204 --> 00:38:58,224 Lamb and tuna fish was a, it was a character... Uh, it was Big Daddy. It was 688 00:38:58,224 --> 00:38:59,464 a character that, um, 689 00:39:01,444 --> 00:39:03,524 -uh, Rob Schneider played in that movie. -Okay, okay. 690 00:39:03,524 --> 00:39:06,964 Where he was... Yeah, he was, he played, like, you know, as Rob Schneider did back 691 00:39:06,964 --> 00:39:09,724 then, he played like a foreign, non- nondescript- 692 00:39:09,724 --> 00:39:11,784 -Sure -... foreign character. And he, yeah- 693 00:39:11,784 --> 00:39:13,684 -It's hilarious. -I'll put a link in the show notes. 694 00:39:13,684 --> 00:39:17,664 All right, I'll have to check it out. Hey, what episode are we on? 182? 695 00:39:17,664 --> 00:39:20,284 -That's right. -182, folks. Thanks so much for hanging out 696 00:39:20,284 --> 00:39:24,604 with us. You can find show notes for this episode at northmeetsouth.audio/182. Hit 697 00:39:24,604 --> 00:39:25,404 us up on 698 00:39:26,104 --> 00:39:30,343 X or on BlueSky at jacobbennett and michaeldrinda, or at North Meets... Or, 699 00:39:30,344 --> 00:39:33,664 North South Audio. And of course, if you liked the show we would really appreciate 700 00:39:33,664 --> 00:39:36,514 it if you'd rate it up in your podcatcher of choice. Five stars would be incredible. 701 00:39:36,514 --> 00:39:40,514 Thanks, folks. Until next time, we will see you. Bye-bye. 702 00:39:40,514 --> 00:39:42,584 Bye.