This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

Emma: You're listening to The Beautiful Mess Podcast, your cozy comfort listen.

And this week we are riffing about our favorite Christmas cookies to make every single year, and we're updating you on our novels.

So two of our favorite subjects, cookies, novels, and we're glad you're here.

Elsie: Yay.

Okay, so before we jump in this week, I think we have to talk about Wicked.

So Emma, she is the organized aunt.

Emma: Oh my God.

Thank you for saying that.

Elsie: And I am the good gifting aunt, and that is our two.

You are really good at separate roles.

So she bought us Wicked tickets for opening weekend, and it was like a party.

It was at the Alamo Draft house.

Our small town, for some reason has one of those, and it's great.

It's the best thing about Our Town.

It's at the top five, it's up there and it's wonderful.

And so she got us tickets to a Wicked movie party, opening movie party, and there was a person dressed as Alphabet as you go in.

And then there was a costume contest, which do you want to tell them what happened?

Yes.

And this was the middle of the day.

Our showing was at 2 45.

So there was a lot of families.

My kids came, I learned a lesson when I took them to the Wizard of Oz play that started at 7:00 PM last year.

So it was a lot of families, younger kids.

It was that time.

I mean, there are all sorts of people there, but the costume party, it was a bunch of little girls who went down to the front when they called for 'em.

And they were all dressed as either Alphabet or Galinda.

And Marigold of course, was dressed kind of as her normal self, but as Glinda, she had an old Halloween costume on and they had every girl do a little twirl and then people would clap.

Emma: So by applause they were the winner, and we kind of knew Marigold was going to win.

She was the youngest kid down there.

And I feel like usually that's kind of how if we didn't have one of our kids down there, I would've just clapped for the smallest person.

She's little.

It's just what you do.

It's just sweet.

So anyway, Marigold won and she was very proud.

Elsie: She's very proud.

So she got this, they call them popcorn buckets.

So I noticed that the Alamo, I don't know if it's like this at other places, but the popcorn buckets are getting kind of unhinged.

But it's like a full toy.

It's like a Barbie dream house.

And they're like, you can put popcorn in it.

I'm like, I guess there's a tiny, I mean you could put, if you made a bag of microwave popcorn, you could put half of it into this thing.

It doesn't fit a lot of popcorn, but it does have a plastic.

Basically Barbie on the outside of Ariana Grande has Glenda and it has the wand in 3D, which is the best part.

Yeah, we had a wonderful time.

And the best part was when they started singing For Good, MariGold just had last week a performance at her school where it was a Broadway melody or medley Where they did five different songs and they knew that song.

And so she had all the words and the sign language, and so she sang the song and she did the sign language.

And I was just bawling.

It was cute.

It was so cute.

And a woman next to me handed me tissues in the middle of it.

So it was pretty, it was cute.

Wonderful experience.

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Emma: Also say our orders, so it was like Diet Coke, Elsie's on the end, and the girls were in the middle.

Diet, Coke, Coke, Coke, Chardonnay, popcorns, anima needs Chardonnay in case.

So that's what I order for myself.

No, I mean it's unclear if you pop lunch or not.

I think that was, I hadn't, that was my lunch.

Elsie: No, I love it.

I usually always get a cocktail when I go there, but it was a little early for me in the day.

Emma: Yeah, you were solo parenting that weekend too.

It's like that's a tricky, yeah, not a, but it was so fun.

Elsie: But it was wonderful.

And the movie was so cute.

I thought the kids loved it and they were engaged the entire time.

So I feel like we're unlocking now higher levels of movies they can be engaged with.

The next day they watched the entire sound of Music and they asked for it and they watched it and they sang the songs and they enjoyed it.

Kind of the holy through.

I think we might've fast forwarded through a couple of boring parts, really, really boring parts, but it's pretty boring.

Movie is honestly a pretty boring movie.

I love it.

But it is more on the visuals and the dialogue parts can be, it has very classic songs too, so I feel like most people can sing at least a few of 'em, even if you don't.

Totally.

No.

So that's fun if you're wanting to sing along.

But yeah, the best, it was fun.

Emma: Yeah, thanks for saying on Organized an because I feel so, gosh, you are disorganized in this season of my life.

Elsie: I would've never gotten tickets for that.

And it was on a Saturday at the perfect time.

I think I bought 'em when they had just come available.

Emma: I wanted to go.

I didn't see The First Wicked.

We'll talk about this more later.

Elsie: You've never seen The First Wicked?

Emma: No.

Elsie: Oh, you should watch it with us.

It's cute.

The kids watch it every day.

I don't get to watch a lot of movies, it's just not in my, well, I'll tell you about it later.

They have the regular version and then they have the sing-along version.

If you just want to just do the songs.

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Emma: They have a lot of sing-alongs at Alamo, so you should look at the calendar actually really cute.

And then it's very, because if you don't have an Alamo draft house where you live, there's other versions of this.

It's just really good food and the seats recline.

And when they have a movie party or just certain types of showings, they make it where kids can talk and even walk around a little bit.

It's very friendly.

Elsie: We bring blankets.

All three of us have our own blanket, and then there's a lot of parents who do that.

And I just think it really adds something to the experience.

It's sweet.

Sweet.

So we're going to share our top three Christmas cookies just because every year we're not going to skip talking about Christmas cookies.

Okay.

Why would we do that?

Ittis the season and now is the time that you might need a new recipe to try or you might need to be reminded of a favorite to put into your rotation.

I feel like every grocery list that, at least for me, for the next, let's say six weeks, is going to have cookie ingredients on the list.

It is a high sugar season.

It's time.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So tell us your top three Christmas cookies.

Emma: Okay.

I love butter cookies.

So if you don't know, butter cookies are very similar to shortbread, but they're not quite as hard and crunchy.

They're not as crumbly.

Yeah, they're not as Crumb softer.

Shortbread is very hard to assemble with your hands.

You cannot use cookie headers with it.

You kind of have to use the press pan.

Yeah.

It's better if your recipe's really good.

And I like shortbread a lot, by the way.

Me too.

But I kind of think of it as more all year round, I think in part because girl, they have a Girl Scout version that's shortbread, which is not compared to yours.

No, it's really not.

But I still like them and I still buy them.

So anyway.

But I do love butter cookies.

We have a recipe on our website, the beautiful mus.com and on it you'll see that we did a version where they're like Circle cookies and you can do a Christmas stamp into them.

And I really like that.

I think that's really fun.

Elsie: Well, we should say, if you just go on a beautifulmess.com search cookies, there's around, I find all these that has 50 cookie recipes and it has all the cookies we're going to mention in it.

So trust me, they're all there.

All these are on there.

Emma: So my second favorite is snowball cookies, which these are kind of crumbly.

They usually have pecans or other nuts in them, and they're covered with powdered sugar on the outside.

And they're a bit of a mess really.

But they're so good, they kind of melt in your mouth a little bit.

And a lot of the cookies that I like, I often eat cookies with hot chocolate or coffee, depending what time of day it is.

Yes.

I eat cookies in the morning, it's holiday season.

So anytime of day have some kind of hot beverage with me.

Not that I'm dipping it, but I just feel like when you have a crumbly cookie, you want a hot beverage with you.

I dunno.

Elsie: I support having an occasional cookie for breakfast.

And the reason why is because I noticed that my husband is a night eater and I'm just not a night eater.

So we always get the rumble cookies and he eats them at night.

And I always have mine in the middle of the day.

I dunno, I just don't like eating at night ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 3 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

after dinner.

If I'm going to have a dessert, I do it immediately and then I'm good.

And I'm more on the hot tea.

Emma: I am a little weird about too much sugar right before bed.

I think it kind of keeps me up.

I think I'm getting to that age where it's like, no, no, no, you got to finish up your coffees by 3:00 PM and don't eat a ton of sugar right before bed.

Elsie: In the morning I definitely support that if you have how sometimes you have leftover pie, if there's certain things that are so good.

Emma: Leftover pie for breakfast, that's the dream.

Yes, it really is right there.

That's living.

And then my third one is peanut butter blossoms.

Sometimes people call these different things, but essentially it is kind of like a peanut butter cookie that has chocolate kiss in the center.

Or you can put a mini Reese's peanut butter cup.

I like to do the ones this time of year that are peppermint Hershey's kiss, or they have one that's like a sugar cookie, Hershey's kiss.

Those are really good.

Those are my three.

And then I have an honorable mention, which is puppy chow.

They call this different things in different regions, but where I'm from, it's always called Puppy Chow, but it's essentially Chex Mix cereal that's been covered in melted chocolate and then tossed in powdered sugar.

And this is the kind of thing that we make and just have around.

And it's also, we'll make it and put it into little bags and kind of give it to people as a gift.

I'll take some to my hairdresser or something random like that.

Someone you're not necessarily going to do a big present for, but it's just a friendly, here's a little holiday treat kind of thing.

Elsie: These are my three favorite cookies and I make all of these every year.

So the first one is sugar cookies.

I was going to say that because I always do sugar Cookies are my passion.

It is like my seasonal craft for winter.

So we're talking royal icing sugar, royal icing sugar cookies.

So on one day I make all the cookies and I do do the freezing method.

I really, really thick.

Emma thinks my cookies are too raw on the center.

That's how I like them.

I like them where they're almost bordering on raw.

I do not like crispy sugar cookies or gingerbread cookies, and I cannot emphasize that strongly enough start.

It's her hil to die on, so don't start with, it's one of my mini hills to die on.

So I like the big, very thick.

And then the edges have to be perfectly straight up and down sugar cookie.

So that's why you have to do the phrasing if you care about that.

If you don't care and you don't mind, I don't do the freezing edge.

Most people don't mind a melty edge, but I don't know, I like the precision of it.

There's a crafting element to it.

And I do the exact same thing with my gingerbread cookies.

It's basically, I made it to where it's basically the same recipe but with gingerbread flavor.

But it's the same consistency of cookie.

Yeah, it's like a soft gingerbread cookie berry gingery.

Gingery.

Very flavorful.

Yes.

If you want a very soft, thick gingerbread cookie, do our beautiful mess one.

If you want a crispy crunchy one, you will have to go elsewhere.

Google it.

Yeah, it's a certain type of thing.

And I get it.

I get it that there's different, but this is my personal passion.

And then I decorate them.

I like to do them at the same time, the dough day, get them all baked and then I just put them in bags or cover the cookie sheets.

And then on a separate day, hopefully the next day I do the icing because it's just so elaborate.

And the icing does take hours and hours and it's the kind of thing where if you make one big batch of icing, you can do every single color ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 4 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

under the rainbow as long as you keep going that day.

But if you don't, then you're going to have to redo everything the next day.

And it is kind of a lot of cleanup.

I would just do all the frosting in one day and then I like to do the thing where I take a whole cupcake tin and fill it with sprinkles for the kids.

It's messy.

You're not going to get any of that back into their original containers when you're done.

But it's a once a year type of vibe and I think it's worth it.

I think you shouldn't put sprinkles back in once.

They've been used by kids.

I had a rotten sprinkle situation in the past and I will never have a situation like that again.

Emma: Even if you make your kids wash your hands before you start, which you probably will, it's just the kids.

It's like the icing can get in there and it's contaminated.

Once it's out, it's out.

Yeah.

The icing can get in there and if anyone takes a little taste of anything, then it just gets a little gross.

Elsie: So Emma's Aunt Judy's sugar cookie recipe is just as good.

It's just as perfect.

But I would add the freezing.

So what I do is I freeze and I just make them thicker, a little thicker and then I freeze the whole sheet for seven minutes and then I bake it immediately after.

And that's the only difference.

And that step just makes them keep that square edge shape.

If you care.

Again, most people don't.

My third passion is thumbprint cookies.

So I realized the last few years I was like, I think I'm an almond flavored and specifically almond extract flavored because my favorite ice cream of all time and there's really no competition, is Jenny's ice cream, brown butter almond brittle.

And then these cookies are my true favorite cookie.

If I'm just going to eat one Christmas cookie for the whole year, it would be this one, the thumbprint cookies.

So they are like the ones that have a jam center and I think you should get seedless Jam.

At one point I did try to sugar-free jam.

I would never do that again.

It's seedless and it's regular freaking raspberry jam.

Or you could use strawberry, but I'm just going to stay on Rasberry.

I like rasberry.

I feel like there's a tartness.

The tartness level's nice.

I haven't tried any other flavors really.

And then, yeah, there's a little bit of icing at the end, so if you do, I personally just still use my sugar cookie icing and do it all in one go.

Yeah, royal icing.

Here's my hot take on almond extract, like baked goods that have almond extra.

I think it's a sign of taste maturity really whenever you're into almond flavored things, because kids almost never are.

And I think it's so good, but it's just something you don't appreciate until I would say you've matured.

Emma: So if you like almond flavored stuff, unless you're allergic, then you're in the club already.

But almond flavored stuff is kind of where it's at.

Yeah, it's kind of subtle.

It's like a subtle nutty.

I love it.

It almost even has a slight savory thing to it.

A tiny bit.

Really?

Yeah.

It's more complex I think, than vanilla.

And I love vanilla.

I use vanilla extract all the time and everything, but different has a different thing to it and it's really good.

Very good.

Elsie: Yay.

Okay.

Well, we're on the same page with those.

I think they're more of a vintage cookie.

They are, for whatever reason, my sister-in-law always makes them for our summer vacation.

I love it for sure.

It's my favorite thing about the vacation as far as food every single time.

I love it.

Those are the cookies.

And then I also, okay, so this year I'm going to redeem myself on some failures maybe, but I have two that I have not conquered yet.

The first one is the candy cane cookies, and I think I'm just going to do the ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 5 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

freezing.

I think I'm just going to rely on the freezing because the problem is the shape.

If they get even a little bit flat, they're not cute anymore.

So I feel like the freezing might do it, and I think I'm just going to use my same sugar cookie dough.

I don't even think I'm going to use a recipe.

I think I'm just going to take some sugar cookie dough, D part of it, red, twist them up, and then do half freeze it that are sugar, half that are dipped in sugar and half that are plain, and then freeze the out of them before I bake them.

And then hopefully they'll be, because I just want those perfect little candy cane shape every time I do it.

They've turned flat.

Emma: There is also those red and white checkered cookies.

I was at the grocery store and I bought a Better Homes and Garden.

They had a holiday cookie one, the food network had a kids' baking holiday cookie one, it's cookies and cupcakes and other things.

Anyway, I think it was in the Better Homes and Garden one, but I bought 'em both for Marigold because again, I baked so many cookies, but I still see the magazine and I'm like, I've got to buy this.

It's joyful.

It's joyful.

We're from the magazine era, but that might be a good candy cane alternative.

Those looked pretty straightforward in a way.

A lot of work.

Elsie: But yeah, I've seen some really cute little slice and bakes that are, is that what you're talking about?

Yeah, it's a slice and bakes.

Like you color it and then you kind of do it in a checkered and then you slice it.

Oh, the checker.

No, I've seen some that are spirals too.

And those are all also really cute.

Emma: Pinwheel, A pinwheel cookie.

Elsie: But yeah, something red and white.

And then the other one I failed at in the past is the cornflake wreaths.

I know the reason why when I did it, I had natural food coloring.

I'm just going to go nevermind on that.

I'm just going to go.

So traditional, whatever they have in the whatever Walmart selling, I'm buying.

Yeah, because they turned a mossy green in a bad way.

So yeah, Laura made them on.

The ones that are on our blog are made by Laura, and you can tell they're beautiful.

These are craft, these are not a baking recipe as much.

They do taste great though.

I'm sure they do, but they're perfect.

So if you want to see a picture of how they're supposed to look, she really got them there.

Yeah, I think the corn flake wreaths are, they're so vintagey.

They're so Betty Crocker.

They're very cute.

So I'd like to try that again and actually succeed.

But I also, I'm a little scared of hot, even when I make Rice Krispies treats, I'm a little nervous.

I had a bad experience once with making candy and you know what I mean?

Candy making is kind of terrifying.

Little bit.

I'm little scared of anything like making caramel or just anything that can burn you severely.

So the corn flake, wreaths, they go a little bit on that direction, but not too bad.

Yeah, that's also a thing you have to be, I've heard myself making popcorn balls before too.

You have to be really careful.

Emma: Which is not really candy making, but it's like if you start handling it when it's still a little too hot, it can really, and it's sticky, so it sticks to you.

So it's like you're trying to get off this thing that's too hot.

Anyway, popcorn balls got me.

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Elsie: Yes.

And then I'm going to give the honorable mention for the thing I have made the most that I will probably for real make every year until I die is Emma's Oreo truffles.

I love Oreo truffles and we sometimes make them for Halloween and Christmas.

Emma: I didn't put this on my list solely because I saw it was already on your list.

Otherwise it would be my number one.

Elsie: So okay, the Oreo truffles, this is my controversial take, so I'm kind of like cream cheese averse a little bit.

I have a very, very small, tiny love for cream cheese and I am not.

That's sad.

I know, I know, I know.

So I am not into cheesecake and there's a lot of things I'm not into that dips seem cheesy.

So many dips, not as much.

Yeah, I'm very low, but I like cream cheese when it's just a little tiny bit.

So anyway, I love the Oreo truffles on the first day.

They're made when you can still taste the crunchy texture of the Oreo.

And then after that, the next day they're kind of a smooth texture and I personally reject them after that.

But that's my husband's favorite thing, so that's why we make it every year.

So I just make sure and eat it on the first day.

As soon as it's cool.

Emma: I usually eat them just on the first day too, because I eat them all.

So there is no second day.

Elsie: Oh my gosh, no.

We have them for, I don't know.

No, it makes a lot a week or so.

It makes a lot.

Emma: I usually make 'em for a party that way I can eat a couple by myself where no one's watching me and then I take 'em all to the party and then I eat a few more.

Elsie: Smart.

I support it.

Alright, so I know we have not given a novel writing update in months and Emma has had some huge, huge, huge progress.

So let's have some time to just talk about where you are and everything that you achieved in 2025.

Emma: So my goal for 2025 was to finish the first draft of the book I've been working on, which is the contemporary romance that I'm calling the wedding photographer.

We'll see if the title stays forever, but I'm calling it that for now and I'm happy to say that I definitely finished that goal and kind of blew it out of the water.

And in many ways I feel like I blew no other goals out of the water this year.

I feel like we were beta reading it in the summer.

Am I wrong?

So you got it done really early.

It's way past the first shift.

Yeah, and I also had this big change this year.

I've talked about this, so if you're a listener, but I used to have full-time daycare or pre-K for both of our sons and our younger son who's about to be one and a half.

We decided to start keeping him home this past summer.

He's had a lot of rash things and sickness things, and we just wanted to see if keeping him home for a year or two might help.

So that was a big ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 7 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

change in my life that definitely very much changed the number of hours that I work.

So anyway, I'm happy to say though I definitely finished the first draft.

I've had a number of beta readers, I think five or six, I'd have to look at my list.

And then I also got a big edit, so a developmental and inline edit with a professional named Kathleen Foxx.

You can look her up if you like.

She's awesome.

Elsie: Two Xs.

Emma: Yeah, two Xs.

Fox X, X, X.

Yeah, two Xs only.

Anyway, so I just sent her back as I'm recording this, my edits to her developmental notes, so all the beta readers, all their developmental notes, I did that as well.

So what's the difference between developmental and inline or proofreading?

Developmental is more the big picture.

So if a character, it feels flat, if something happens that it feels too soon, it feels too slow, it feels too whatever.

So pacing stuff, story stuff, plot holes, anything like that, that would be something more developmental.

And then inline is you don't need to say she said every single time or we need to italicize this or that.

Inline is similar to proofreading.

Proofreading is probably a little more of the nitty gritty and it's a little less about style.

Inline has more to do with style because there's a slight difference between those two things.

So anyway, so I'm kind of at the place where my book is definitely past the first draft.

I guess this is technically the third draft.

I'm not really keeping track anymore per se.

I found it hard to define which draft you're on if you're not rewriting.

It's like each time you go through it could be considered a draft and that could be like every week if you're like me.

Yeah, so exactly I guess you would.

It's a third draft, but I don't really know exactly.

Maybe more than that in a way.

But a lot of things have gotten moved around.

But I did check my word count and I actually only added about 6,000 words, Which was less than I thought.

I changed quite a few things as far as the timing of things and when characters are introduced and I added a couple chapters.

So anyway, yeah, so that's where I'm at with that.

And I was kind of wondering if I might be able to query before the end of the year, but I don't think I will be doing that at the beginning of the year.

I still need to do inline and then I'd like to get it proofed one more time by somebody who hasn't read it at all yet, Just to really make sure continuity stuff, because I've kind of moved so many things around.

I just want to make sure that everything, if you reference, oh, a character had a lunch with a different character and now that lunch isn't there anymore, things like that.

I'm like one person who hasn't read at all to read it.

And I have a gal who's really great at proofreading.

She actually can do editing.

She's also a writer.

She's really talented, but she hasn't read it at all yet, so I've kind of been saving her.

Oh, that's good to read it at the end and proofread it for me.

She proofread Handmade Murder as well.

Anyway, so I'm really excited for that.

I also now am at a place where I'm a little bit waiting, kind of just sitting around, which is great because holidays are happening and there's a lot of kids being home anyway, but I'm also kind of thinking about my next thing.

Oh yeah.

But we'll talk about that.

Yeah, no, she was telling me the whole plot of her last Noble when we were on our flights a week or two ago.

So yeah, there's always a new one cooking when there's another one coming out of the oven, right?

Yeah, I think that's a part of this little life cycle, which is really cool.

Yeah, I think too, we talked about this in the episode where we talked about being off social media, but because I'm coming up on a year now because be in been a whole year that I've been off social media and I can tell that I know, right?

It's weird and I can just tell that.

So what's running in the back of your mind?

What are you kind of thinking about a little bit as you're doing mundane task?

I mean, if you have a podcast going or something like that, then you have that.

But if you don't, what's running in the back of your mind?

And I can tell that for me, it's sort of empty, not inputting a lot of stuff all the time from social media.

So I'm always thinking about books I want to write or weird scenarios of things that could happen ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 8 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

in the book that I'm thinking about.

And some of them work and some of them don't.

Like I'm always daydreaming about my creative work and I really like that, but I also have a lot less time to work on it than I used to, which I'm fine with.

For now.

It is just the season.

Elsie: We should do a follow up episode this summer, then about the one year.

I think that's really interesting and I want to really dig into that.

That's its own episode for sure.

Emma: Let's hear your novel writing updates.

Elsie: So I had an amazing year.

I feel like this was definitely a huge learning year for me.

And I'm going to share my first experience querying, which is from last March and April.

And then after that I rewrote my novel.

I'll share about that and then sort of what I learned this year.

And I also started writing a new project this year, which was because I had a couple times when my book was sent to editors, and when you do that, it takes a whole month usually to get it back.

So I had a couple of totally free months, so I use that time to start something new.

So yeah, it's been, I think this has definitely been the year when I learned the most.

So just to quickly backtrack, I started the surrealist, if we're getting so technical, the first time I even had the idea, it was three years ago when I still lived in Nashville.

So I started at that time, but I don't think, I don't even know if I had anything written when I moved.

I don't remember anymore.

But I definitely had the title and then I had a concept that was completely different for the title.

It's weird.

I'm kind a backwards worker.

You'll learn this the more about me, the more you'll see how backwards I am.

But it is very normal for me to have a title first and then to have many different ideas for what the book could be.

So at first I found some notes where I had said it was going to be this high school art class.

Do you remember this?

It was like a high school art class story, portraits.

They were making portraits and they were getting messages from the past or the future or something.

I don't even know anymore.

So I worked on that for a while and it was just not, sometimes you just kind of hit, or I've had several concepts where I worked on it for months and then I hit a point where I was like, this is not going to move forward.

And I started over.

So I moved to Missouri and I think I had to plot it a couple times and Emma helped me.

I've always been horrible at plotting.

It is my biggest.

You're a very atmospheric writer.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It definitely did not come naturally to me, but it can be learned.

So anyway, I wrote the first version of the surrealist, and I had a coach at the time, I got developmental edit and she said it was really close and was very encouraging and I thought maybe it was ready to go.

So I started querying it in March of 2025.

And immediately, so this is a crazy story.

I think this is my first time to tell it.

And I were at a blogger conference in New Orleans and it was kind of like, I think I had decided I wanted to query it in this certain month because of astrology.

Let's not talk about that.

And I had my time there.

So I think it's because I was there and I had no kids with me.

I was like, I'm going to send out my queries while you're in this hotel.

Got yeah, you can wake up and have a couple hours.

And then, yeah.

And it was just a good supportive atmosphere.

I was with my sister, so I did my first batch of queries when we were in New Orleans on the first day that I sent the first two queries, I sent them out and I had been prepared that it couldn't take months before you even hear back a yes or a no.

And it's just like, it's a very slow process and don't really expect anything.

So I really wasn't.

And so I sent them out in the morning.

We went and got beyes, And when we got back to the hotel after breakfast, I had two emails ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 9 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

and they were both a full request from the first two agents I ever emailed to read the novel.

And I was like, what do I do?

Should I tell them it's not ready?

And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, don't say that.

Emma: Yeah, don't say that.

Elsie: She was like, she told me what to say.

I sent them out and I was like, everyone's going to hate me because I'm going to get an agent on my first try.

Emma: And I was like, well, I kind of hate you, but that's fine.

Elsie: And so I sent out more and I think I got another request that day.

So I knew from the very beginning that the concept of the book was desirable to agents.

I knew that for sure.

Your letter was great too.

Thank you.

The letter was also good.

Kathleen Fox, who Emma just mentioned also helped me write my letter.

She is really great.

We've worked with her quite a few times now.

Yeah, she's great.

Fast forward a little bit, and I started getting a lot of reduction from the people who read the manuscript.

I don't think anyone finished it.

I would say I have more proof that no one finished it.

I have definitely zero proof that anyone ever did.

Then Emma didn't even finish it.

Sorry for throwing you under the bus, but I already said I hated you.

I feel like that's fair, Emma.

Emma didn't even finish it and she was just kind of like, yeah, I think there is more to be done here.

So overall, I figured out really quickly.

I knew the concept is good.

I knew that the opening pages were well-written because I was getting a lot of requests.

I ended up getting eight full requests and I think two partial requests in two days of querying, which is really, really uncommonly good.

It's very good.

So I knew that something was good.

And then I also knew that something was bad because I was also getting really fast people.

Sometimes five days later, a week later, they would write back and reject the whole project.

They were usually not very specific, but I did get a few people who graciously gave me a couple paragraphs and they all said the same thing, which was helpful.

It's kind of boring, it's kind of boring, it's kind of slow.

It's not pacey enough.

Something along the lines of that the plot isn't plotting.

And I was like, okay, I get this.

So I knew I was going to do a rewrite.

So there is common advice, I should say at this point.

I knew the common advice that it's better to write a whole new novel than to try to rewrite your novel.

You already started querying because first of all, you already wasted some of the best agents querying them with an undercooked pasta and you're not supposed to ever write them again.

Which I'm not going to lie, I think I still might, I still have a case for it.

I'm not sure.

I'm going to give that a maybe for now.

And then also sometimes it's just easier to start fresh than to try to rebuild a robot that's already been built, if that makes sense.

I like a lot of robot metaphors about my novel.

Alright.

So anyway, I usually do food metaphors myself.

But yeah.

Alright.

So I knew I was going to rewrite just because I was like, the concept I think is too good.

I think I just undercooked it and I think I just need, I knew the ending was bad, and if you know that ending is bad, you probably shouldn't be querying, but I was just like, whatever.

I was new to it, I made a few mistakes.

So next I put all of my remaining queries on freeze.

And that's not really true.

I still got rejections months later that I didn't realize you forgot about.

But I put all the requested queries on freeze anyone who had requested it and if someone else would've requested it after that, no one did.

But I would've said, I'm taking a maybe later situation.

So that was in, I think early May.

And I started rewriting.

And first I did ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 10 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

hire an editor, so I read this craft book I loved.

And so I hired this woman to give me a developmental edit of what can I do to improve?

And I'm just going to say it more, should I say it?

Just the more honest way.

Yeah.

You haven't said her name, so I assumed you were going to say it the honest way.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

She just wasn't helpful.

And that can sometimes happen.

I think that's part of, it's a sad part of why if you are into writing and you're listening to a lot of writing advice, there are a lot of people that will say, don't pay editors.

And it's because of stories like this.

Because I paid thousands of dollars for advice and she basically just told me over the course of several hours, it's just not good.

And she would say here and there, things she liked about it that were very detailed.

She liked details from it, but she didn't really like anything about the plot.

She didn't really seem to the characters.

So there was really nothing for me to build off of.

So it was honestly much, much worse than doing nothing.

I wish I could have just gone back in time and not done that particular edit because it was more just like something I had to overcome mentally after that.

But I didn't really get the advice.

I mean, I'm not going to say there was nothing in there that I used.

There was some good advice in there, but it wasn't at the point where she had enough that she liked about it, that she could tell me how to rewrite it.

And she didn't really tell me how to rewrite it.

She just told me, you have to start over in many different ways of raising it.

So I did start over and I plotted it and Emma helped me.

I always give you plotting credit for that because I'm a good brainstormer.

She is a great brainstormer.

And sometimes you just need someone, I consider Emma my critique partner.

You have to have someone who you can just sit down for a couple hours and maybe eat a sandwich and just be like, what about this?

And what about this and what about this and what about that for hours?

And that's what we did a few times.

And so then I started rewriting it in June, I think, and I finished it in October, I think.

So yeah, rewrote the whole entire book.

And it was harder than writing it the first time because I had polished, the thing that was sad is that I had polished the first version to where there were things about it that I truly loved.

There was beautiful writing.

It was sort of a beautiful house that got built on a bad foundation, so I had to tear it down.

It was very painful, but there wasn't really a way to fix it without tearing it down.

So I did that.

So I finished rewriting it, and then I just sort of started layering on the improvements.

And I think the hardest part about the rewriting is that for months, most of the summer, I couldn't tell if I was ever going to love it again.

It just felt like it was back to the phase of the studs and the concrete.

You know what I mean?

I have a hard time from my own book too, of once I start editing something, I kind of don't like it ever again.

Really?

It's not new to me.

So you're not into the editing.

See, I'm not into the first draft as much, and I love editing.

I could tinker with it till I die.

Emma: Yeah, I could tinker, but I'm like, was this better?

That's true.

Don't dunno.

Elsie: I love this piece of advice.

Am I making it better or am I making it different?

And I do.

Emma: I can't tell sometimes.

Elsie: Once you get to that point, I think it does mean you're close to done, which is good.

I guess that's good for you.

For me, I know it's still getting better.

I know it's still getting better now.

So I rewrote the whole book and I wrote it in a different POV, which helped a lot to not have the temptation of copying and ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 11 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

pasting.

I really couldn't.

I'm sure that was very annoying.

But what a writing exercise.

I loved it.

I loved, I actually am really glad I did that part.

That's a strong exercise, man, Emma, that talked me into changing the POV.

And I'm really much happier with it the second time around, obviously.

I mean, it's like the practice.

So I just consider her in every way my learning experience.

And at this point, I would love for it to become a real book I've promised myself, and I know that I will follow it to the ends of the earth.

If there's any more possible chances to make it better, I will do those things.

But at the same time, if it is never a published novel, I wouldn't really grieve that because I learned so much and it was just such a wonderful experience.

And I had had to do this rewrite.

And I'm glad I did the early querying too, because I learned that I did have something.

It just wasn't a finished perfect novel.

But I did have something that was good.

Emma: Maybe a good metaphor, since we're doing metaphors, robots, food, let's do one more house building.

House building.

Maybe this was the first house you ever bought and you renovated it yourself and you learned a lot, but you were never going to live there forever.

You were going to move anyway, but it'll always be really special.

And the one that you learn the most from, and there's going to be more houses.

It's just kind of how it's going to go.

And there's going to be lots of books that's just kind of inevitable.

Elsie: So anyway, rewrote the whole novel.

Now it's being edited, and I'm doing the same editing.

Emma just talked about doing.

We were one month apart, so I was just like the month after her, I had to wait months for Kathleen.

Then Elsie got in right after me and I was like, that's not true.

That's not true.

I booked it in June.

Yeah, I booked it.

I think I booked mine in June too.

I booked it and then I wrote it to try to be ready for the deadline, which I barely was.

So anyway, I am going to improve it as much as I can, as many times as I can.

I remember this one time Brandon Sanderson said, he said, there's people who, most people don't write an amazing novel on their first try, but there's people who write five novels and they get better and better.

And then there's people who rewrite the same novel over and over.

And I think I kind of am maybe more that person, at least I hope, because it still helps me to give it the strongest finish.

It can have to believe that it can still be the book I want it to be eventually.

But yeah, it has definitely been a test of endurance.

It was extremely humbling.

And getting through several years of knowing that I was a beginner at something I wanted to be an expert at was such a good exercise for me in developing patience and maturity.

I think because we've done a lot of things in our career where we were good at it right away.

Mostly lc.

Yeah.

But we stumbled into some things where it just worked for us on our first try.

And that happens in life.

But I think also this sort of thing happens where you really have to put in the time.

And so I'm glad I had this experience when I did.

I'm very proud, I guess I would say the biggest thing I learned is that it doesn't really matter what you're writing.

For me, I just needed to write for a couple years, just all the time, every day, just writing and writing and writing.

And I worked on several projects in this time, and I have my one finished novel, and then I have my other half finished novel.

And it wouldn't have mattered though, if I would've written five books that I didn't edit, that would've been fine.

If I would've written one book that I edited or rewrote five times, that would've been fine.

You just have to be writing all the time to get better at writing.

I feel like also, as soon as I started my second book, I learned this is a new metaphor.

You're going to love this one.

The second book is kind of like a second child.

I think you're going to be able to use everything you just learned and they're completely different.

And you're like, oh man.

As soon as I started my second novel, I very quickly had the sense that it just has a completely different personality and it wants different things of me.

And I don't think I'm going to have the same struggles.

And I don't know yet what struggles I'm going to have ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 12 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

still on the first draft.

And I'm still kind of in the fun exploratory part of it.

But I feel like it is so far, much, much, much, much easier.

Is it a different genre?

It's a slightly different genre.

So the first one's historical fiction, and the second one's the family saga.

So it has a lot of different time periods.

I mean, it has a contemporary, the main story is a contemporary story.

I dunno.

I didn't have to do all the research.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I mean, I did some research, but it was very different.

Anyway, so I'm just going to finish the surrealist to the highest level I can get it to.

And then I am going to query it one more time because I do still believe in it.

I can't not believe in it.

It's just how my brain is just you believe in it.

Yeah.

It's just what I believe in my body.

So if there is a chance for it, I will make sure it finds that chance.

And also if there's not, I have the peace for it.

And I actually think that's what manifesting is, is to get to a good place.

You can't be in that desperate energy.

So I'm kind of glad I'm not in that desperate energy anymore.

I don't feel like it's my only shot in any way whatsoever.

I feel like it's just one thing that I'm really proud of that I want to see it through.

And then I'm happy to move on to another one if that's what the universe says to do.

Emma: Yeah, I don't feel very desperate about anything from work.

Elsie: Good.

Emma: My desperate energy is all saved for my children, where I'm like, please eat one thing on your plate, please.

That's all my desperate energy I have done for work at all.

Elsie: Recently, I have been trying to stop saying, I'm begging you to my kids.

I do.

Sometimes I'm begging you when they just won't listen.

Emma: Yeah, put on your shoes.

Where are your socks?

Yeah.

Elsie: But yeah, writing novels is a happy, wonderful, joyful experience.

And I think it's hard.

And I think it's also, I think it's brutal too.

But I think that overall, if I had to give it a feeling, I would say it's very solitary.

That's probably the number one.

You know what I mean?

It's in some moments it's good lonely.

It's like the introvert's dream.

And in some moments it's bad lonely.

It's very difficult to find people you can talk to about it, Who really understand.

Most people just don't understand what a project like this is like or what it involves or just kind of anything about it.

So yeah, I found it to be a wonderful, wonderful experience as far as being creatively fulfilling.

It's really up there.

So if anyone's thinking of doing it, you really can write a novel for fun.

You really can.

Oh yeah.

And it is fun.

Emma: It is fun.

Yeah.

You can also, if you were like, that's too long.

You can write a short story or novella, it's up to you.

But writing a novel is very fun.

It's very, very fun.

It's not like running a marathon.

It's actually fun ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 13 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

and pretty easy.

A bunch of our friends do their marathon running and I'm roasting them right now, but I'm not saying their names.

So if they're listening, they'll know.

They'll know I'm roasting them.

So I'm working on my next book, which is going to be another contemporary romance I'm calling it right now, Sundaes are for lovers.

Elsie: Ice cream sundaes.

Emma: Ice cream sundae.

It's like rivals to lovers.

That's the trope.

And it's about the son of an era of a custard company and the daughter of this kind of quirky, healthy non-dairy ice cream thing.

So anyway, it's cute.

It's very, very cute.

It's going to be very fun.

But I'm also kind of like, maybe I should just read my notes app of all my book ideas.

I'm always accumulating random ideas in part because I am one of those writers where I like to write in a lot of different genres just because I like to read a lot of genres.

I just have a notes app on my phone that's like book ideas.

And some of them are pretty good and some of them are not good.

Some of them are un You want to readed?

I think I only have a few in here.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Yeah, I only have five in here.

And the first three are contemporary romance ideas.

So I'll just skip those because you guys know I write that.

I'm going to write a whole bunch of those.

I'll tell you the other two that are very random one's horror and one's like a future.

So the horror idea is older sisters buy a dilapidated inn to become an old lady retirement home.

But it's haunted and they love it, but also they die.

That's why I wrote, that's the whole idea.

Elsie: I want that book.

I want that book.

I'm in on that.

Emma: And here's the other one.

I'm literally just reading these out of my notes.

The other one is dystopian Future slash Alternate Reality where women control sports, but only men play.

They're given money and prizes.

If they do well, they all, the men have no rights otherwise.

Behind the scenes, some of the owners, prominent women sleep with the athletes and the athletes have no choice.

But this is a love story between one powerful woman who falls for a powerless but great athlete man, that's the whole idea.

Elsie: That one I'm going to need a little more selling on.

Emma: Yeah, it's got sports and romance.

It's not really your thing.

I could not imagine you wanting to read that book.

No offense.

So those are two things else.

Not if they made that into a movie, it would be kind of action movie and kind.

Elsie: But I do have a thing for dystopian, I do have a thing for dystopian.

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Emma: It's not dystopian in the way that you like them at all.

On the art side.

It's not artsy, dystopian.

It's more like divergent or hunger games or that kind of thing, which is cool.

And I love those.

But fun.

Elsie: Okay.

Should I say a future teaser?

Emma: Yeah, I don't even know if I'll write those.

I think it's fun to just accumulate when the idea hits me and I'm like, that really would be fun to write or hard or interesting.

I just put it in my notes app and maybe it'll be become a book one day and maybe it won't.

If someone listens to this and you're like, I'm going to write that, go for it.

Enjoy.

Yeah, that's true.

Doesn't scare me at all.

I don't care.

Well, it shouldn't because I've seen, so there's a term for this, but when two people write the same book, it's different.

It doesn't matter because they're different.

Exactly.

And they might love them both.

They actually might help each other.

They might both be great.

So I'm like, yeah, whatever.

That's fine.

Elsie: Yeah.

Okay.

So for my next book, so I call my next book for, its because I didn't want to put the name out yet.

I am a little superstitious about this one for some reason.

Emma: Don't say the name then.

Elsie: The name, I call it Project Lighthouse because set in a lighthouse.

So it's kind of inspired by the Dutch House, by M Patchett, where you have a family saga that's tied to a family home.

So my characters live in a New England lighthouse and there's generations of women.

And it's also really inspired by a hundred years of Solitude, because after I read that book, I got obsession level.

The book's incredible.

I think this is a good way to start a book, is I just want to write a book like that, but different but like that in that spirit, I guess.

Yeah.

Anyway, I've been working on that one.

That's definitely my next one.

And then after that, the next one after it is so unhinged.

So I'll just say that it is a literary sci-fi book.

It is a robot book.

And I love a robot book.

Yeah, it is definitely my greatest high concept.

Concept.

So in commercial fiction, there's this thing you're supposed to try to do called High concept.

And I think the greatest high concept book is Jurassic Park.

Emma: I love Jurassic Park.

Elsie: Yeah.

I'll never miss a chance to talk about how much I love Jurassic Park, the novel, but also the movie and also everything.

Maybe not the Spinoffs, I dunno.

We don't need to talk about that.

Yeah, leave that out of it.

Let's just talk about the 1990s Jurassic Park.

But it's just such an, it inspires me so much because it was my first adult novel that I read as a child, which I think leaves its mark on you in a special way.

And it also, I think that in sci-fi, it's like a moment where people somehow believe that the science ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

in it is real, and the science in it is like it's loose is no, it is fake, but it doesn't matter because he made it real for you.

What's science fiction?

Yeah.

So I just think that's the most beautiful thing you can do for a reader.

I think it's so cool.

So anyway, I want to do a robot book, but in a beautiful way.

In a beautiful artsy pretty way.

Yeah.

I'm going to scream.

Okay.

I love robot books.

So yeah, plans for the new year.

I'm just going to try to write my family saga and finish the surrealist.

I'd be happy with that.

If I'm at this exact same place again next year with a new book where it's finishing one, starting one, that would be totally perfect.

Emma: Yeah, I'm working on my Sundaes for Lovers, but my side project is my football book I'm kind of working on, which is.

Elsie: She didn't even mention her profile book.

Emma: No.

I even mention book and it is writing a book about college football.

It's not a romance, it's just about college football.

It's like, have you ever watched a sports movie?

Oh yeah.

It's still like a feel good genre.

Elsie: Friday Night Lights is a comfort show for a lot of people.

Emma: Yeah.

The movie in the book are a little bit heavier, and Friday Night Lights is actually nonfiction.

A lot of people forget that because they made so many things based off of it.

But at any rate, but I'm talking about the TV show.

Yeah, yeah.

At any rate, I do think that the sports genre, there's all sorts of things, just like any genre, but it can be very feel good and I'm wanting to do one.

That's the type of thing they would turn into a movie that would be PG 13.

It's like definitely a feel good type thing.

I love it.

And I just like college football, so I think it'd be fun.

Elsie: Yeah.

Emma goes to the, you've talked about that before in the podcast, right?

Emma: Yeah.

Elsie: She goes to the football games and she has her own little football costume outfit.

Emma: Yep.

My sons are very into it, especially our older son.

He talks about football and plays football every day in our house inside the house.

We're just waiting until something breaks and then we're going to say, ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 16 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

okay, no more football in the house.

So, I mean, we did break the chandelier, but that was already broken, so yeah.

Who cares?

Elsie: You're new chandeliers is so much cuter.

Emma: Yeah, it all worked out.

Elsie: Okay.

We have an incredible, gorgeous, beautiful suggestion from a listener named Mary, and this is going to be so fun.

I would say this is the single most exciting email we've ever sent.

Oh, I loved it.

I was like, yes.

Anyway, it starts off Anyway.

I don't know what came before it.

Sorry, Mary.

Anyway, I wanted to suggest an episode along the lines of Debate club where listeners can write in their hot takes and you can debate them.

Nothing serious.

Okay.

Give me a little serious, I'm talking along the lines of things you already talk about.

Books, movies, trends, et cetera.

I say this because I was recently inspired to read Practical Magic and I hated it.

That's hilarious.

I would debate that to my death.

Put me on that podium.

I watched the movie right after, and I feel strongly that the movie is actually better than the book for once.

The movie is really good.

Emma: So the movie is good.

Better, I dunno, good, yes.

Elsie: The book is great and the rest of the series is even better.

Anyway, I'd love to hear the Silly Hills that we would all die on.

Okay, so we're doing this.

I think we can do this episode probably for January if everyone starts sending in their piping hot takes this week.

So it's podcast@beautifulmess.com and you just send us, it can be anything.

I will say a couple of limitations.

I don't want anything that's like celebrity gossip, that's mean spirited.

I don't want anything that's cruel.

We won't put anything on that's talking bad about women.

But other than that, honestly, just give us whatever.

Give us anything in the world.

A hot take.

As long as it's harmless, I don't care.

I think it's so fun and it's one of my favorite things about social media is when people take these incredibly strong stances on stupid hills to die on.

Emma: Yeah.

The sillier the better.

I mean, tell me why eating steak medium rare is for losers, whatever.

Elsie: And I guess the good part is since we're going to debate it, we'll make sure that each side gets represented.

Yeah.

Maybe we'll just both have to take different sides and that's the rule.

We can do that.

I will say neither one of us, we were not in speech and debate.

Emma: Yes, I was.

I debated.

I had a briefcase.

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Elsie: You had a briefcase.

Emma: Wow.

Elsie: Wait, what?

Emma: Yeah.

Wow.

Elsie: What?

Emma: Yeah, I did Lincoln Douglas debate.

Are you serious right now?

Elsie: I didn't know about this.

Emma: Yes.

Elsie: Okay.

I did nothing like this, but I'm willing to do it.

It'll be fun.

You'll have to teach me the, is there rules to it?

Emma: Yes, there's rules.

Elsie: Okay.

podcast@abeautifulmust.com.

Send us your hot takes burning scolding hot.

Okay, we're going to pass it off to a joke or a fact with Nova.

Hey Nova.

What do you have for us this week?

Nova: A joke.

Elsie: A joke, is a themed joke by chance.

Nova: ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 18 of 19 This transcript was exported on Nov 30, 2025 - view latest version here.

Christmas.

Elsie: Christmas theme.

Okay.

I'm ready.

Nova: Why did the snowman get lost?

Why?

Because he didn't snow his way home.

Have a good week and Merry Christmas.

Elsie: Alright everyone, thank you so much for joining us this week.

Email us anytime at podcast@beautifulmess.com.

You can also leave us a voicemail at 417-893-0011.

We'll be back next week.

ABM EP276 Draft (Completed 11/30/25) Transcript by Rev.com Page 19 of 19