Joe

Hello and welcome to Life Online. The new podcast from Ofcom. I'm Joe Smithies and across this series we're speaking about being online. How we feel about it and how to keep people safe? Today we're talking about online bullying, as Ofcom research shows that kids are now more likely to be bullied on a device than they are in person.

A quick disclaimer here. This can be a sensitive topic. We're also hearing from a group of people expressing their own views. These are not the opinions of Ofcom.

Now we know the impact of bullying on children and their families can be stark, but what's it like for children who are targeted by others on the sites and apps where they hang out? What can be done to make these places safer, and how can parents talk to their children about an online landscape they may not fully understand?

[Clip of Radha]

“Really basic things like giving time and space and actively listening, not interrupting. What can you share with them about how you've been affected by bullying? Because if they know that they're more likely to open up, so I think opening up and talking is really important.”

Joe

Well, to help find the answers, I've been speaking to the doctor, author and broadcaster Dr Radha Modgil, who has a lot of expertise in this area, and to Alex Holmes, who is deputy chief executive of the Diana Award, where he works with young people on anti bullying initiatives.

But first, Ofcom’s John Eccleston has been catching up with three teenagers who are anti bullying ambassadors for the Diana Award. Their names are Paige, Harman and Theo. Their aged 16 to 17 and John, tell us why we spoke to these three in particular

John

So they’re anti bullying ambassadors based on the fact that they've all been through bullying experiences of their own.Like many young people, they spend a lot of time online, and that's where some of that bullying took place.

 Joe

And when you spoke to them what was it in particular that really struck you? 

John

It was just how open and articulate they were, and the fact that despite discussing a serious subject, they were very realistic and positive. Theo, for example, was really clear about the positives of being online, which is something we see in our own research. Harman talked about how social media is always changing, and Paige gave us some brilliantly straightforward advice on what you can do if you've been affected.

 Joe

OK, well as I say later on, we'll be speaking to two experts in this area – Radha Modgil and Alex Holmes - but first, let's hear from those three 16 and 17 year olds. That's Harman Theo and first from Paige.

 Paige

So I was bullied online for approximately 2 months by a group of around 7 to 8 boys from a local school, so it wasn't my own personal high school. It was actually one that was quite nearby. I never met these boys in my life and they decided to target me online for around two months, in which they'd create group chats, and pretty much just criticise my appearance. They didn't know me as a person in order to say anything else about who I was or my personality.

It was all appearance based and they primarily comment on my weight and my skin because at the time in 2018 when I was quite young, my skin wasn't really clear and, you know, you're going through all these changes in your life around that time and they would pick on me. So I’d remove myself from the group chats, but they would just make another one. It was relentless.

 And no matter how many times, teachers or educators can say, reach out as a person being bullied. You have this voice in your head that's almost embarrassed to reach out.

So I think here today as young people who have all experienced bullying in some shape or form, we're trying to portray the message that It's OK not to be OK, and the minute you reach out is the minute it gets better.

 Harman

I can say from experience that being different and not fitting in quite exactly can make you quite vulnerable, and with that you become a target to insults and mocking. And I think once I became an anti bullying ambassador with my high school I realised that other people's fears are more up towards online bullying because you have millions of people on so many different platforms and each one of those people has the potential to bully you.

 Theo

The thing that stood out for me though is that it was completely anonymous.

Until this day I don't know who bullied me. Which even like four years down the line, I can't quite get my head around considering how much of an impact that they had on me and how like how differently it's made me look at social media.

I didn't tell my mom and dad that I'd been cyber bullied till 2020 I think.It was, I think the biggest thing that stood out for me. It’s just how alone I felt with it 'cause I couldn't go to anyone they couldn't magically tell me who had made the account and there's no way like teachers could tell me so yeah, that that was my my experience.

 John

So you may be aware that we've often was carrying out some research in this area, and our research tells us that children are now more likely to be bullied through a device than they are to be bullied, face to face, and I guess one of the questions that that gives rise to is: if you are bullied online or do you think if people who are bullied online is that an extension of bullying experience in the real world. Or do you think it can be exclusively carried out online with no relation to to what happens to the face to face?

 Theo

Often they go hand in hand, I think. But then. In my personal experience, it never came to any fruition in my part, so I think we're saying we have to redefine what bullying is to an extent, and I think we have to think about it very differently, but I think it's frankly, pretty easy to bully someone online. It's opened the floodgates to anybody in the wrong frame of mind to just log onto Instagram and send them a message.

And then maybe you'll regret it a day later. But it's been sent and there’s not much you can do.about that. That person might not say it in person, but that doesn’t really wipe away the fact that they said that. Yeah, it's it's a difficult one I think.

 John

So do you think the sort of the digital platforms and technology make it easier to carry out acts of bullying? It maybe takes a little less courage than doing these things face to face.

 Theo

No doubt yeah.

 Paige

But I think it also comes from a lack of education between the difference and the line between bullying and banter. As Theo said earlier, it's really easy to get carried away online, and you hide them behind a screen. You may say things, not always in a malicious way, but things can be portrayed differently depending on who's on the other side of the screen.

In my experience, it was purely just online bullying and it never carried out in person because ultimately I didn't know the people personally who were bullying me.

I think no matter if the bullying is in person or online, it can have such a detrimental effect on young people or anyone mental health and the way they perceives others and themselves. In my case, I suffered really badly with poor mental health during this time and you feel so isolated and alone and you could be in a room full of so many people, yet you still feel so alone. It's a really unique experience that I feel so many people face in a different way.

With bullying when you get home, it should be your safe space where you're surrounded by your family, your friends, people that care about you and you care about them. But with online bullying, it's more. I guess it's easier to bully someone online now. There's not really an escape as there was when online bullying wasn't as commonly known.

 John

Paige I think you make a good point there I think one thing that's often said about online bullying is that it's difficult to close the door on it. It's difficult to walk away in the same way that you could if it was face to face for example, if it was in sort of a physical environment.

Harman, how do you feel about that? Do you think it is sort of more difficult to escape online bullying than it would be to? It's sort of escape face to face bullying, so to speak?

 Harman

I think it's harder online because the solution to very extreme cases of bullying has always been, you know, you move school or you move away and you've always got that place to hide. But with online bullying, you don't necessarily have that. You can report an account and then you'll have another one the next day doing the same thing.

With COVID, we've had a lot of children suddenly moved to using laptops, and if you're a young child who's during the pandemic and you have nothing to do and you kind of do have this tendency to be mean and kind of be offensive, it's going to be really easy for you to kind of access social media and use that as the platform instead of school.

 John

If I can just touch on a point about reporting bullying, so Paige, I believe that you did sort of block and report many of the incidences of online bullying that you had. How was that process for you and how effective do you think it was?

 Paige

Personally from my own experience. I'd say it wasn't effective at all. I reported these boys numerous times and I think it it's categorised as bullying and harassment and the amount of times the social media platform came back to me and said it wasn't violating their rules, and it just makes you feel worthless because you're thinking I feel this this way and the social media platform isn't doing anything to stop it.

In in terms of blocking them, I also did block them, but they would make more accounts on the specific social media platform I was on and this was occurring on. At the time it didn't have a feature to block the account. All other accounts that they may make, so I just had to keep blocking them. But every single time they would appear it was a reminder of what they were saying and they would make more group chats. And if it was on one social media platform, they'd move on to another. They'd find a way to bully me and say these comments. And that's the thing with bullying perpetrators: if they want to do it, they'll find a means of doing it.

 John

Would there be steps that you would like to see the platforms take to make it more effective? If people do report incidences of online bullying, what do you think the platforms could do to make that reporting process successful?

 Paige

I guess almost at the time when I was going through this process, it was like a checkbox. So you had to categorise what you were going through, and sometimes that can be hard because you've not really processed it yourself. You don't really know how or why these things are happening to you. But obviously the behaviour I was being inflicted upon was bullying behaviour, so I reported it under bullying and harassing.

Then I definitely think social media platforms should put an option to maybe write a few comments just about what you're experiencing, and maybe mentioning this has happened X amount of times.

Nothing happened. I feel this way, please could well have some form of communication and it feels like at times or at the time when I was going through the behaviour it was like talking to a robot who couldn't really do anything about. But behind these social media platforms are real people and I think having that ability to write comments and sharing insight into what's occurring would really allow them to empathise with you. And hopefully the blocking and reporting tool would be much more effective.

 John

Theo, I believe you you sort of found it difficult to report and difficult to talk about the bullying you experience. Can you give us a bit more insight on that?

 Theo

Much like Paige, I don't think I was in a great mental place when everything happened and honestly it's the biggest mistake I ever made was just not telling someone and I think, to me, at the time the I thought it was pointless. I genuinely I thought that nobody would be able to do anything, so what's the point in doing it in the 1st place and it took me two years of carrying around like this thing that happened. And you know it changed a lot about how I perceived myself. And how I went about social media. 

Not stupid, but it was. It was like an unnecessary thing I did to myself and honestly it makes a piece of advice I give to anybody who's experiencing online bullying is just to tell someone, even if you think that reporting the account is useless, even if you think that blocking the account is useless. If you can take yourself away from that situation and tell anybody in real life that that cares about you like a teacher. It's not about whether they can simply make it go away. It's about taking a big weight off you, and making sure that. Yes, this has happened to me, that’s over now and we can protect you. Someone is there to talk about it and to look out for you in that way. And I think that would have helped me quite a lot when I was in that headspace and I just. Yeah, it was a big mistake I made then. I just don't want any people to repeat.

 John

That's really good advice, and it's it's great insight to your into your experience. 

Harman, you and your bullying experience was more sort of face to face, so do you think there's a difference between your ability to report bullying that happens online and the ability to speak to somebody face to face? If you have experiencing bullying that takes place in a real world environment, so to speak?

 Harman

Yeah, there's a really big difference. So when you're talking to someone out there who's an actual person, there's always the emotions that are conveyed across your face, your gestures, your expressions they can convey so much more sometimes than just your words.

You can tell if someone is feeling panic if someone’s truly terrified, and I think on social media. You're not given the platform to do that, and I think we’ve prioritised hard facts and proof over how someone might be feeling.

 John

And just on this sort of on a broader point, do you think it's sort of difficult for parents or carers or teachers to understand online bullying when they might not be the kind of people who spend much time using those platforms, do you think that's potentially an issue when it comes to addressing these these problems?

 Theo

To put it down to its bare necessities, I think all the adults need to know who might not be tech wise is that if someone comes to you and it's saying that they're being bullied, It should be treated with the same sort of urgently as someone who came up to you when someone's just clearly been beaten up. I think it should be treated the same way and it's not about necessarily knowing perfectly how to use Instagram, or perfectly how to tweet something. It's more about, you know, treating in the same way and acknowledging that what they're going through is real and it's happening and.

It can really affect that and I think that's what adults need to know. They don't necessarily need to know the ins and outs of social media.

 John

So just based on what you said, do you think there might be a tendency among some parents and carers and teachers to sort of take online bullying less seriously than face to face bullying because it sort of happens in this space where you know, sort of digital space.

 Theo

To be brutally honest Yes I do. I do think that people can have the tendency to go to compare the different kinds of bullying behaviours and put some labels, And that makes sense and put like and I think sometimes on My brain can be Not treated as seriously because it doesn't have any physical consequences, and I guess a message or a comment or or sort of things don't affect the person behind me but that doesn't mean they don't have the effects, but only 'cause I think. Actually sometimes they can be more harmful than other physical actions yeah, I think sometimes it can be treated less seriously, and I think that's just like a general attitude I think needs to change, needs to evolve a little bit, I think.

 Harman

Sometimes parents and teachers don't realise how dynamic social media is. There's always an update. There's always changing, and when you're dishing out the same advice to just report it, you'll doing a misjustice because in not keeping up with what's changing and what's available, You're kind of limiting that young person’s support network and what they can actually do. And when you don't do that, essentially, you're not much of a help.

 Paige

Absolutely. I think it's the same with anything. If you've never been through something or you're not exposed to something as your peers or your children, you will never I guess fully understand what it feels like to be in that position, and what's even harder to wrap your head around. Sometimes when it comes to bullying, as I think Theo mentioned this before. If there's no physical scars or a bruise it may not be taken as seriously. Yet a bruise and being bullied online can have the same detrimental impact and it doesn't have to be visible.

People are suffering internally when it comes to online bullying and so it can be really difficult, but I think my advice to parents, carers, educators, teachers is definitely: Educate yourselves on the changing of technology, the rising of the technology, and really understand what young people and just anybody using online platforms can go through and how you can support them effectively.

 John

Thanks, Paige, I think it's a really good piece of advice. If you could give one big piece of advice or one request to sort of parents or children who might be listening to this about how they could deal with online bullying, what would you? What would you suggest to those people?

 Harman

I think first have a conversation about the impact it has on you because you will find a solution and it will get rid of the problem but as they said, there will be damage and whilst it may not be a physical physical scar, it’s still always there at the end of the day, especially regarding mental health. I would urge parents and young people to prioritise that

 Theo

I think opening that dialogue, being able to have that conversation is something that helps learn anything else. I think treating it as seriously as you would treat someone who get’s punched and verbal insulted. It as what it is really. As harmful as it can be, being aware that you know it can have long term impacts on people. And having that awareness of that and then sort of opening that dialogue to then be like, OK, this happened. What can I then do? And having that support?

But still to help you do that, to make you know everything a little bit better and to make it not as scary as it can be if you go through it alone.

 Joe

Good advice there from Theo for all parents listening. Thank you to Theo Paige Harmon and John Eccleston.

Well, I'm joined now by two experts in this area by Doctor Radha Modgil and by Alex Holmes who is Deputy chief executive of the Diana Award.

Radha I'm going to turn to you first, and all bullying can be devastating for the victims, but is there anything in particular about cyberbullying that makes it so upsetting?

 Radha

I think there are a couple of aspects. I think one is that the cyber bullying really follows you home so you know when I was growing up that traditional idea of you know if you're being bullied, which I was actually at school and that you'd only that would only happen to you in in school environment actually could get away from it when you went home there was a safe place in your bedroom to be away from that.

That's gone out the window now, so obviously with devices you know cyber bullying, I think can be very pervasive. If it can be continuous, it can be literally that every single hour, every single day for a young person or a child.

I think the other aspect to cyber bullying as well is just that increased level of anonymity. You know the greater potential for someone to be bullying someone without necessarily them knowing or or showing who they are for example, their identity.

And I think also that exclusion is that when tyu're kind of experiencing bullying, perhaps in a physical environment or in school. You'll have other people, potentially witnessing that. When you're being cyber bullied I think that that potential for people to see it, to witness it to actually be there for support, is much, much more reduced, and I think that's why. potentially it's more difficult for young people and children to actually ask for support and help.

 Joe

Yes, and it might be more embarrassing for them because they're being bullied. Sometimes in a kind of semi public space.

 Radha

Yes, absolutely. Like you say in a group space or group chat. With written communication, text messaging the kinds of levels of miscommunication is obviously greater than in person. You know that person who is bullying doesn't see that person’s reaction doesn't see their face, doesn't see their emotions, doesn't have that kind of feedback if you like, of actually knowing how that's impacting somebody, so potentially that means it can get even more out of control and even more extreme.

 Joe

OK, that's interesting. So the impact of bullying is almost hidden online sometimes. 

Now we should be clear about what we mean by bullying. There can be a bit of a sliding scale, I suppose from something that starts off quite innocent or lighthearted and moves into something a bit more sinister.

Alex, I want to bring you in and just ask what how should we actually define bullying.

 Alex

Yeah, I think this is a really good question and and we like to define bullying or something that's repetitive so you know it's not a one off. I think we all face examples in life where we perhaps face unkindness and this is more than that. It's more than just once. It's always intentional, and it can be by one person or a group.

And I think it has too often involved this sort of imbalance of power when someone has power over an individual and and uses that to make them feel upset, unsafe or uncomfortable. And so that's how we like to define bullying at the Diana Award.

 Joe

Yeah, so when we're not talking about unkindness here, that’s an important definition. We're talking about something stronger than that

Why, Radha, do people bully other children?

 Radha

I mean there are so many different reasons. Obviously every situation is different because we're all all different or unique. We all go through different things, but I think I think mainly in my experience, it's because someone been through quite a difficult thing and they haven't necessarily been supported with the skills and the tools to be able to process that emotion, or those emotions that have come up from that challenge, and they haven't necessarily had the support around them to talk that through to understand it and to work through it. 

And a lot of the time you find that people project their own unhappiness and their own sense of powerlessness in that way to kind of almost regain or gain power over somebody else. I think it's really important that we do some work and we have conversations around why people bully so actually we can then tackle and target those reasons and give young people and children those tools early on to work through things if they are being bullied.

But we also try to tackle those emotional issues and those emotional challenges that people have that actually lead potentially to people bullying so it needs to be a a wide reaching conversation.

 Alex

Also, just understanding that we are all still learning and growing and making mistakes and I think that that is really important to acknowledge that and particularly children and young people. I think there's a really important message around and helping when people understand their choice of words or actions online, offline and not sort of giving them that label of being a bully because its behaviour and you can change your behaviour. 

So yeah, I really do believe in that sort of compassion and I suppose for people that are perhaps displaying brilliant behaviour and enabling them to not make that same mistake again and and have better choices.

 Joe

Alex that point you made earlier as well about. Let's not call this cyber bullying. What child uses the word cyber and that probably reveals doesn't it a slight kind of generation gap? Do you think it's harder for parents and carers now dealing with an online landscape that they may be less familiar with?

 Alex

Absolutely yeah. Have a have a lot of understanding for the parents and guardians that have had this difficult job. And what I would say though, I think is the parents and guardians listening is too dumb to think about some instances of offline in person, but in behaviour and treat online bullying in in in the same way.

I think often we forget about that, and we imagine that online bullying or the Internet is some sort of beast that can't be tamed. And that's partly because I think media and certain organisations have painted that picture, but actually there's lots of things we can do when it comes to incidents, and I think one of the first things is remaining calm, you know and not getting angry. Finding out the facts and asking a young person what would they like to do about this or what can we do about this? together to solve it to give them some of that power back 

And think about the evidence and if it's pertained to pupils or two students at school, then the Department of Education says that the school should deal with online incidents of bullying. Help your child report it. That's really important to have a go at doing that. Well, I, I think we shouldn't get too concerned with the fact that it's online and there's nothing that can be done. I think there is things that we can that we can done.

 Joe

Absolutely working with the children, working with the schools, working with the tech firms as well, we've got an online safety bill coming which will place a new duty on tech firms to look after their users. Ofcom of course will be the regulator for that and Alex, you work with the platforms on their safety advisory boards. Without divulging any confidential information, can you tell us about the kind of themes that that tend to come up?

 Alex

Yeah, so it's. It's a really good experience and I've always found actually the tech companies to be they open and you know they for the last sort of six years. This bill, in particular they've been attending a lot of roundtables with ministers, as well as with a lot of society. Most of the focus on these trust and safety councils is looking at particular types of behaviours and giving that expertise from safety experts and academics.

I think a lot of the the companies are focusing on sort of product tools at the moment that perhaps could make your experience better, and that includes things like the ability to block keywords from appearing on the photos or comments, or in your direct messages and to helping to share only with certain people, so privacy settings to close friends.

But I think the thing that's harder is the fact that language and behaviour is very complex. And while things like child sexual abuse, imagery or terrorism, or even perhaps COVID health information are much more sort of clear cut and easier to identify, I think things like racism or bullying it is harder to classify and what we don't want to do. I personally feel is sort of prevent freedom of speech or identify everything potentially offensive as bullying. So I think that the technology is there but things like machine learning and artificial intelligence isn't quite there, but we're there as sort of advisors to challenge them to do more. To think differently, and I think my biggest complaint with these tech companies is that that they're good at innovating their their products, bringing out new features but less good at innovating and marketing safety.

And you know, I'd love to see them be much clearer with users about the types of behaviours they want to see and marketing those tools that they do have. And those rules. I don't think that they're good at that. And that thing that needs to change, and hopefully through the bill that will be much more focused.

 Joe

Indeed, and you touched on it, freedom of expression that's at the heart of the bill, isn't it? And something that Ofcom as the regulator will be prioritising as well.

OK, just to finish up, I want to ask basically the same question this this part is aimed at adults more than children, so if you are a parent and you're listening to this. And your child is experiencing bullying online or offline. Turning to you first Radha, what tips would you offer them

Radha

For me. There are sort of three elements. I think there's the practical side of it which Alex has gone through and I'm sure he'll go through more detail in a minute as well about blocking and reporting and talking to teachers and doing all those kind of practical things. And kind of, you know, getting evidence of it as well, and I think the other element of it is the emotional side of it. And I think that is really really important because that's the first step into actually understanding, discovering and actually communicating with your child and your teenager. We often think that online bullying is totally different and I would say we treat an online chat room, online bullying as exactly the same thing as if something was happening in a playground.

You want to be the kind of parent or guardian to that child who they know that you can come and talk to them about anything. So you know the reason we don't talk or we don't speak our truth is because we're worried about judgement. And potentially they say we're worried we might not be believed. Or we may be mocked. And so any parent or guardian saying if you think just like why would I not tell someone my truth that applies to your child and teenager as well?

So if you can be the kind of parent or guardian who is there for that, that teenager, that child who they know that they're in a safe space when they're going to come and talk to you. You're not going to judge them. You're not going to react. You're not going to do anything without their permission and consent because of often children worry that parents are going will just go straight off and cause more trouble for them. They know you're going to work with them. And I think you know really basic things like giving time and space and actively listening, not interrupting, talking to them about experiences that you've had.

I mean, what can you share with them about how you've been affected by bullying? Because if they know that they're more likely to open up. So I think opening up and talking is really important.

So I think it's that emotional thing, and checking in with them regularly along that process. And then I think also it's about the other element for me, is about taking them away from it because you know when there's an issue in a challenge, it's really important to talk about. It's really important to do something about it. But it's really important, particularly online bullying, to give them some distraction from it so to to get away from their devices to go out and do something different to talk about something different, to give them a sense that actually, although this bullying is going on that actually there are other things outside that there are other things to be hopeful for and to enjoy and other things to build their self esteem and confidence.

And I think for me, those three elements are kind of key to actually helping support your child and teenager through that.

 Alex

Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice from Radha, and I think that last point around taking their mind off what what's happening online is really important. There are really important things for children young people to focus on and for parents to prioritise things like sleep things like exercise, friends, and you know, I. I think those are really, really important and maybe just links also to that sort of proactive approach from parents. 

And having discussions with your child about what would they do if they saw something online that made them feel upset or unsafe, uncomfortable, or talking about things that you read in the news around technology. That's often one of the best ways to engage on this topic, particularly when there's parents and adults we don't have all the answers or the insight into what's going on in that platform and also saying to your child you know who is in your support network. Who could you go to if you had a problem or worry or concern online? And who you know help them identify those people. And I think that would be very helpful to give them some of that sort of resilience and those problem solving skills and for them to have when they face these situations. 

But I think that as parents, don't be sort of afraid to ask questions to think about your support network. Other parents, friends will be going through the exact same situation and you don't need to know all the answers. It's sort of impossible to know every single platform or or you know necessarily know how to understand the risks on those platforms. There's lots of advice out there.

 Joe

Fantastic, well thank you both very much for the advice you've offered today. Alex Holmes from the Diana Award and Doctor Radha Modgil.

And for a bit of final advice, let's turn in order to the children we spoke to earlier. That's Theo Harmon. And Paige.

 Theo

Uhm, I think I know we've said all these like scary things around being bored so I… The last thing you can do is be afraid of the Internet. We live in a society where it is so vital to sort of have tech skills, especially with the pandemic.

Even more so now I think to then exclude yourself from the Internet because you have experience online bullying. It's the worst thing you can do.

And it might mean that like you've been on bullied online, but you had worked yourself back up, and it might mean that you never download that social media app again and that's completely fine I think. Being scared of everything online is the worst thing you can do to yourself.

 Harman

Whilst the experience might be bad for you, utilise this as your strength and use it as a driving motive for change. Change that you want and change that other people will definitely benefit from.

 Paige

Don't face it alone. It's OK not to be OK, and there's always support, no matter if you're going through online bullying, in person bullying, or just anything making you feel uncomfortable and negative emotions.

There is always something and somebody that you can turn to that will support you, so I urge everybody listening to please reach out for support.

Because it gets better and it starts with us as a generation, we're going to make a really positive difference on society and hopefully spread acceptance and positivity.