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This is True Crime Tonight.

Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

We're talking true crime all the time.

It's Wednesday, November twenty sixth, officially Thanksgiving Eve, and listen.

The team is busy prepping their own Thanksgiving meals and flying to see family and all of the things.

So we're going to be repeating one of our most favorite episodes and we hope you enjoy happy Thanksgiving.

Thank you for being with us.

I'm Stephanie Leidecker, joined of course by analyst Body Movin.

Courtney Armstrong will be joining us later in the show, but right now, we also have Joseph Scott Morgan who's jumping in our very favorite forensics expert, also the host of Body Bags, and he and Body are going to really unpack the forensics and one of those cases that we've all been following for so long, the Delphi murders back in the news again.

A really important documentary read just came out.

I don't know if you guys had a chance to see it, and it really does shed light on this recent guilt conviction in the case.

So the Delphi murders is something that body has been living and breathing so closely for so many years.

Baddie, do you want to catch us up a little bit on just the the broad strokes of this hideous case.

You know, there's a lot of broad strokes.

So this is going to take a little bit of setting up.

This happened in Delphi, Indiana.

This was in February of twenty seventeen, so you have to put yourself back eight years ago.

I'm on Facebook, and you know, I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, looking at the cute pictures of the cats and stuff.

And there's an advertisement for a Facebook group and it's called catch the Snapchat Killer.

And now you know, immediate, okay, I'm in let's go look at this.

This is right up my alley new exactly right.

It was I think February seventhenth I think it was twenty seventeen that I saw this group.

I joined this group and there was a photo and audio and the photo was like this really blurry guy all right, And all we knew is that there were two dead little girls thirteen and fourteen, Abigail Williams and Liberty German out of Delphi, Indiana, and this photo of this guy and we heard these words guys down the hill or actually I think at first it was just down the hill and that's all.

We had this really blurry photo.

But I was all in, right, this is exactly what I'm in for.

So a little bit of background.

This was February twenty seventeen.

It was unseasonably warm in Delphi.

And Delphi is a really small town, right, like three thousand people.

Three thousand people out there.

It's very small.

Everybody knows everybody, and it's unseasonably warm.

The girls have the day off from school because they're like catching up on a snow day, and they decide to go to the park and take photos, you know, along the trail, you know, get some cute pictures for their Snapchat and Instagram stories and whatnot.

So they go to the trails and you know, they had their sister drop them off, Liberty's libby.

Her dad was going to pick them up at three thirty.

Everything was arranged.

And by the way, this was very normal.

This was nothing outside of the normal other than this random day off from school, right, completely normal.

So Kelsey, who is Libby's sister, drops them off at the Monan High Bridge trail the trailhead at about one thirty five pm.

You know, it's a partially wooded it's got an old elevated like wooden train bridge, and it's kind of spooky, but it's kind of like a place where people go and take photos and look at fish and you know, it's a really beautiful place.

So they get dropped off about one thirty.

At approximately two oh seven, so about a half an hour later, Libby posts a snapchat photo of Abby walking across the bridge and an empty photo of the bridge, and so those get posted to her snapchat around two oh seven.

Well, shortly after that's now chat post, Libby's phone captured something else, something that you know, really knew what he was expecting, and it was video and audio of a man approaching the girls on this bridge.

And this is where you know, things take a really menacing turn.

And again we get this audio guys down the hill.

Now we're at the time, we don't believe that he's directing the girls down the hill where they had met their unfortunate demise and to that end, he.

Becomes kind of known as bridge guy.

Right, This is like kind of makes worldwide news at that point.

Very blurry.

He seems a little on the older side.

I mean again blurry, lurking.

It does appear that he's like lurking over this bridge.

It kind of reminded me of like stand by Me, the movie stand By Me, where they're running across that bridge.

You know, picture that it's beautiful, but it's populated, it's a commonplace to go.

This is not right, completely remote.

So that's around two thirty around.

Okay, so three p fifteen comes and goes, the Libby's dad comes, can't find them.

He's making phone calls.

He's calling you know them, He's calling Abby and Libby.

He's calling Kelsey, Libby's sister.

He's calling girls wears girls.

While around five point thirty, the police are finally contacted that they can't find the girls, and a search ensues until around midnight.

Around noon the next day, February fourteenth, two volunteers found the girl's body on a private property about a half a mile from the bridge across the Deer Creek.

And you know, the case was very quickly deemed a double homicide.

Early police statements confirmed that evidence found at the scene, including the audio and video on Libby's phone, suggested that the girls had been kind of confronted and led to that location.

Investigators initially withheld a lot of details in this case, but it did launch what would be one of the most publicized murder investigations in smalltown US history.

An outsider looking at at that time, this is every human's worst nightmare.

Again, these are a thirteen year old, fourteen year old.

They're best best friends.

They're just going out to spend the day outdoors, you know everything everyone's getting encouraged to do.

Get off your phones, get off your iPads, get off you know, not playing games, get outside, right, nothing uncommon.

We saw the interview with Libby's sister who dropped them off, and she just you know, gave them their sweatshirts, made sure they had them, and off they went to kind of play oh school.

So the idea that they're being miss or potentially I should say, the idea that they're being led down this hill into what you know, we we find out to be pretty harrowing circumstances.

Remember, they're on these train tracks, right, They're on these train tracks and they're elevated.

It's very high up, you know, and they were found down this hill and across the river, so they were literally led down a hill.

And that's the audio that we heard for the I mean really the only audio we had for almost seven years.

We didn't get the full Bridge Guy VideA is what we're gonna call it.

There was a video that Libby had taken with her phone and we didn't get the full video until the case was totally adjudicated, which it has been now.

Pretty short video.

Yeah, So the girls were found around noon on the fourteenth, and then of course it turns into a crime scene.

Yeah.

Well listen just the real time of it.

You know, the girls are discovered, you know, and they've met an untimely death.

It's Valentine's Day, right, imagine that we could all probably picture where we were on that Valentine's Day now, and you know, their scene did say a lot, it.

Did, and it was an unusual scene.

So Libby she was completely nude, and she had obvious and you could see her wounds, that she had blood on her hands and blood on her neck and some blood on the bottom of her feet, and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes, and major her wounds weren't so obvious, and mainly I think because she was clothed and they had kind of like been covered with some sticks, you know, long branches, possibly to obscure the view from the river, you know, kind of camouflage them a little bit.

But what's interesting about this is that even Abby's shoes were on.

She had her shoes, but she had Libby's jeans and sweatshirt on.

It's very unusual.

And again Libby is totally naked.

And what that would imply, and again, Joseph welcome jump in, is really that you know, not only did these young women and again these are some graphic details, so you know, listener beware, and we'll get through them as quickly as possible, but you know they had been undressed and redressed and placed.

And that video that you speak of where some man says on the hill, we all probably have heard it.

It's really haunting when you realize those are the very very last second.

So more on that later.

With just I think that it's important to understand the scope of this because compared to a dwelling like a structure that you work, a crime scene in you're very contained, right, you're bordered by walls.

I know that sounds very obvious, but this is a completely different kind of animal.

One of the investigators described the taped off area as being the size of a football field.

Just let that sink in a little bit, because this is an old adage in forensic so that you can never expand the tape, you can only contract the tape.

So some of that can be explained by the idea that wide net catches more fish, and so you set up the perimeter in a very broad manner.

But to me, it's also saying they don't really know where things are.

They know that concentrically.

They've got these two beautiful young girls that have to say that they've been brutalized is an understatement.

And the thing about it is this is one of those places you don't wind up by accident.

He did an excellent job of describing this train trestle, because this thing is harrowing.

But here's the other piece of this.

You were talking about the height.

This is not like you're going to a national monument and you've got steps you're going to descend.

We're talking about a slick hill that is literally twenty feet in height.

If you don't know what twenty feet means, that means two stories.

And there is a subject, a grown man that is apparently coaxing them down.

And I got to tell you all along, I've always felt as though that the image of that blurry image of him coming across a bridge, he has his hand in his pocket, and there's been some talks of firearms that sort of thing.

Just think if you were these two and these are not older teens.

These are young teen girls that are just kind of finding their way and they're just hanging out and some old, creepy man comes along and it's telling them to go down the hill.

And this is a word I love to use in this case, and I've used it many times, is the word menacing.

And there's actually laws out there in certain jurisdictions about menacing.

You can menace people, And menacing gives you that idea that it's just this overt threat and he could just merely out of his pocket, pull the weapon and show it to them.

I'd be terrified how much more these young women, And.

In the full video that has since been released, the girls are very compliant, wouldn't you very own.

God.

Yeah, you're right on the money.

They are compliant that in no way is I'm not imputing in a way.

I got to tell you this about Delphi.

In rural areas, which I have primarily lived most of my life, one of the ways you measure a town in rural areas is how closest walmart as rural as This place is so rural that the occupants of Delphi, it's you had to travel almost twenty six miles just to get to the closest wall.

They are walmarts everywhere.

That's why I say that's a big clue to me.

That's a huge clue as an investigator, because your field is very narrow at this point.

And also, Joseph, to add to that, this bridge you're talking about, that the girls are being led down a hill from that would kind of make them trapped.

Right, So if you're a perpetrator who maybe wants to do something scary, you know, here are these two young girls crossing this little bridge.

There's nowhere to run.

You bring up such a good point, Stephanie, because at the one end of the bridge where you enter is where the trailhead is, and then at the other end of the bridge.

You're literally trapped.

It's a home like.

You can't just walk through there.

It's private property.

The only way to go down, to get off the bridge is to either go down or to go back across it.

I got to tell you, if you're thinking about this from the perspective of like the military, if you were going to set up an ambush, this is what's referred to as a choke point, like you have no option to go left or right.

Everything narrows down.

You're familiar with the terrain, This terrain is some of the most daunting terrain you can even begin to imagine.

What's your option here?

You're going to do what he says to do?

Are you going to throw yourself off the bridge?

You know that you can try to run past him, but if he presents a weapon or he's menacing, yeah, are you going to do that?

Even I mean as a child, are you going to do that?

I gotta tell you, your default position is going to be to obey.

And that's what they did.

You know in the video and the photo that we did receive over the course of the last seven or eight years, it was long opine that he had a gun in his pocket.

Again, this video is very blurry, you can't really see anything, but a lot of people said that they could make an outline in the jacket pocket of the guy, the bridge guy.

So what's interesting is that they did find that in between the two girls where they ended up resting between the girls' bodies near their feet, there was an unspent forty caliber bullet and it forensically matched to a sig sour Pee two twenty six, which is now owned by the suspect, which is very interesting.

So this I don't know how to go to this or For six years, there was no arrestumate in this case.

Then one day, all of a sudden, at the near Halloween, we get, oh my gosh, there's been an arrest in Delphi and it's this guy nobody has ever heard of.

And his name was Richard Allen.

And he wasn't on any of this sluice that we're sussing everybody out.

It wasn't on anybody's radar.

He works at the local CBS.

He's a kind of an unassuming guy, very surprised that this has happened.

And what they did was Richard Allen self reported that he was on the trails that day because again they had this video right like, we're looking for this guy.

So he self reported and everybody was giving tips like, oh, I was there, I saw this, it was the terrain, this was the weather.

All.

That's a good citizen who actually calls into a tip line.

So he does.

My wife.

He told his wife, hey, I was at the trailhead today, like and those girls have gone missing.

And she's like, you've got a call.

So he calls and he meets with a conservation officer and you know, the conservation officer looks at his phone, takes a statement.

He says, I was there during this time.

And then six years go by and he's arrested.

Six years, six years old.

I thought we're going to continue this conversation.

So the Delphi murders were unpacking the forensics with Joseph Scott Morgan and you know, again, this is Boddy's case.

That's so close to her heart.

So stay with us, We'll be right back.

Welcome back to true crime tonight an iHeartRadio.

We're talking true crime all the time.

I'm here with crime analyst Body Movin and our very owned forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan and host of the podcast Body Bags and listen, please trigger alert.

We're talking about a really sensitive topic, the Delphi murders, and listen.

There was an arrest by Richard Allen.

That's the part in the case we just are at.

Now, body, do you want to pick it up there?

Yeah, So everybody's wondering, what do they have against Richard Allen?

What is the case against Richard Allen?

And we get like a really really short PCA from the Delphi Police Department.

What's a PCA stand for probable cost evidated And it's basically what the police are telling the judge and you know this in DA.

Basically, this is the evidence we have against the suspect, Can we go ahead and arrest them?

And it's just the evidence, not all the evidence.

Obviously they're not going to put everything in there.

It's just enough to get somebody arrested.

Okay, It's important because again, without it, you are not entering anybody's living space or frankly looking for more evidence.

So in this PCA, we learned that there was a forty caliber bullet at the scene of the crime.

And we didn't know this before.

We didn't know you know, the girls were not shot.

The girls were killed with a blade of some kind.

That's all we know, and we don't even really know that, by the way, We don't officially know that, but we do know that.

The only reason we know that is because the funeral home told the families they would have to wear scarves.

So it's the only reason we knew that they even had a blade.

After six years, we didn't really know the cause of death.

There was a massive gag order in this case.

Our hearts are so with the families too, on all fronts because it's a sadistic case.

So they found this bullet.

Then we learned in the PCA they found this bullet, well, they found the card.

Basically, a volunteer with the police department was going through like all the Delphi tips and she ran across one that had Richard Allen's name on it and saw, oh, they need to follow up with this guy.

And so they followed up with him, and they got a search warrant to his house and they found that he had a forty caliber gun and they linked the two and.

There was also a footprint, right, so didn't they have a footprint and also the same shoe size or grid.

Yeah, he admitted to being there.

He said he was there.

They had a footprint bridge.

I actually don't know about this footprint, to be fair the way.

Point though, even if they did, whether they did or didn't have this footprint, it is no big deal because he was there by his own admission.

Yeah, he said he was there.

So they found a lot of DNA too, By the way, they found a lot of DNA and the girls, but none of it matched anybody.

They matched each other because again Libby, you know, was nude and Abby was wearing g Libby's clothes, so of course they're going to have DNA.

You know, Abby's going to have Libby DNA on her.

And they found unknown male DNA.

None of it matches Richard Allen, So, Joseph, if you make of that.

Obviously, the terrain was very specific.

It was February, so you know, authorities have said since then that that didn't help in terms of evidence and DNA findings, like none of it matched the accused now convicted killer.

Is that common?

Yeah, I mean to be able to find unknown or you know, unmatched DNA of any kind.

The thing that makes this kind of peculiar, though, is the fact that it's not like you're in a dwelling.

You know, if you're in a dwelling where you've got multiple people living in a dwelling, you would expect DNA deposition from a variety of sources.

Okay, but if you're out in a wooded area, depending upon where they're collecting it from.

Now, if it's coming off of the bodies, which I would imagine it was probably off clothing, that can point you in a very specific direction.

I really wonder how rigorous they were about the genetic testing.

I'm a big fan now of forensic genetic genius.

I wonder if that's something that they could revisit at this point, because back then, even though it was a concept, it was not in practice like it is now.

I mean, we're hearing cases every single day now.

I'd like to see if there were because there are people out there that have suggested there may have been other people, And just for peace of mind, if I could back up just a little bit and say something about the unspent cartridge that was out there.

Yeah, because I definitely want to get into the unspent cartridge.

It's very interesting, it is, and it's a specific round.

It was Smith and Wesson forty col.

Forty col is not real common.

It's common, but it's not like nine millimeter.

The line linees share people that carry concealed.

Okay, I know that there will be debates over me saying this, but Line's share of people that carry concealed are going to carry nine millimeters.

It's one of the most prevalent.

Yeah, there you go.

It's one of the most prevalent hand handgun calibers out there.

But I have kept and you can't see this, my colleagues here can but I've kept this on my desk all of these years, covering this case.

And this is a forty caliber Smith and Wesson.

Maybe an inch big, right, So what you're holding up is a bullet.

It's, you know, just a standard bullet, and it's probably the size of the tip of your thumb.

Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's but it's actually more robust than say a non milimeter okay, a bit larger.

The rub with this is that they used a unique it's not unique, but it's not as satisfying for people as say, a true ballistic test.

When you run it's sure, yeah, when you run around down a barrel, a barrel with the lands and grooves in the barrel has a very specific ballistic fingerprint.

Right, because again it's important to remember, this bullet was not fired.

This is a fun spent bullet.

It's not the jacket, it's the bullet itself.

Yes, So you've got the anatomy of this.

The top part is actually the projectile that's seeded in here.

The bottom part is the casing and the entirety makes the bullet okay, And then down here you've got propellant and then you have the primer cap down to the bottom that has primary element and that's a bit different chemically.

Anyway, when they did the examination, when they collected Richard Allen's forty cow, they take it to the State Crime Lab, maybe even that f BI, I'm unclear, but the ballistic section Indiana State Crime Lab would be perfectly suited to do this.

They would take the same round, not the one that they're going to admit into evidence, but they're going to take the same round, probably multiple times, place it in to the barrel, into the tube, and they're going to rack it multiple times with each individual, like they may run ten through there to see if they can replicate what are referred to as extractor and ejector marks on here, and they run up the side and on the base of the round.

So when the mechanism grabs it.

This is soft metal.

This is like brass, So if you've ever had brass around your house, you know that it's not like steel.

So it leaves little marks, and those marks can be tied back to a specific weapon, but they are not as specific as the projectile being fired and going down the barrel as it's spinning, that leaves a very specific ballistic fingerprint.

So this is where you know a lot of people took exception to this bit of evidence that it's collected seen.

I think it's a key piece because it goes back to what I'd mentioned earlier about menacing.

How many movies have we seen where somebody's out on the street and all they do is present a weapon, and they just demonstrated it happens in real life.

Yeah, it happens in real life too.

People are menaced with weapons.

Hey, I'm backing off.

How much more so?

You get two young girls down and it's down in a hole essentially, let's face it.

You get them down there and all of a sudden and you rack that round and you're in such a height and this is on me.

I'll say this right here and right now, you're in such a heightened state of sexual desire, in this perverted manner toward these little girls that guess what you forget?

You stick the weapon back in your pocket, but you leave that's racked round on the ground and stuff to your point, making it difficult.

Remember we're still in February, and there's that drop of leaves that have taken place just a few months back.

The ground here is.

Just covered and now damp and yeah.

Damp and mossy, I say, mossy, kind of mulchy feeling.

It's got that smell that you smell out in the woods.

I'm not going to say it's dumb luck.

I think that to my way of thinking, I think they probably ran over this entire area with a metal detector because these rounds, they're so heavy and so dense intact, they will literally move, gravity will pull them.

If it's laying on a leaf, it'll roll down and go beneath other leaves.

So you have to run a metal detector to see the things that can't be seen with the unaided eye.

So can I just ask one thing, just to reset.

Bodies are discovered, I mean tragically.

Their clothes have obviously been taken off and rearranged.

One found completely nude.

A bullet which Joseph Scott Morgan you're describing, this bullet is found between them.

They're in this rough terrain at the bottom of this hill while they were trying to cross a bridge above head.

And also, you know again it's a day later.

We know that search was very large, per you, Joseph, the size of a football field.

Now add twenty four hours, and we know that there's this video and audio about forty three seconds worth.

It seems like there should be easy to find who this guy is, right well, and now they're making this arrest.

The guy is a pharmacist, he's working at the pharmacy.

He's a family man, has kids as a wife.

How could that be by the way he calls it.

And he never left Melphi.

He never leaves Nilphi, which was a little bit of a tell.

They always had said psychiatrists or a psychoanalyst had said that perhaps they they left and kind of rolled into the real world and just sort of acclimated back into the community.

That would track so Joseph back to you and I'm sorry to cut you off there.

Back to the forensics, No, I was look at I've got to confess body and I had a conversation about this, and I don't know she concurs with it, but this is kind of my thought.

Going back to Alan working at CVS, there was a story that had floated about when funerals occurred, there's only one place in town where you get pictures developed.

I think that's CVS.

You know, still getting thirty five's printed and doing.

You know, everybody sees these when you go into the drugs.

You know it's a funeral.

They're going to get pictures blown up.

And then he funeral, he allegedly makes the offer to do everything for free, and this is offered to the family.

I might be misspeaking here.

I'm not sure.

It may have been Kelsey directly.

And you know the other thing that I talked about.

The accused Richard Allen, who's working at the CVS.

Yeah, he's a nighttime manager essentially.

Right, so he's volunteering services to the families for the girls' funerals, photographs, et cetera.

This is like the worst wasn't there that movie with Robin Williams about the guy used to make the photographs.

Okay, so that's what was that.

It was a scary movie, I guess, very similar.

Well, you know, the thing about it is with the photographs, you have an insight into people's lives.

If you're getting hard copies when these things are developed, if they're developing in house, you know they do.

They have the machinery to do that.

You sit there and you can just flip through it.

And who's going to pay Who pays attention to what the guy in the photo booth does?

Anyway?

And this is the other thing that Body and I mentioned with one another.

If you're looking for intimate details about people, how much more intimate is it that there are not too many people in my little town where I live that know more about me than the Walgreens pharmacist, because they know everything.

They know what kind of medications you're on, they know what your phone number is, they know where you live.

I mean, how many robocalls do we get say your prescription is ready?

You know, And just that's the kind of information that this quiet, unassuming person, you know, he kind of mels into the background, and these are and the thing about is that's so disturbing to me about the scene itself, is that these are very dark fantasies that he's playing through.

I had a serial killer years ago that used to redress bodies, turn underwear inside out, to put them back on the victims, the idea that you can treat people like their dolls, and that's it's horrible that he did this to this precious girl, and that's what he was doing.

He completely dehumanized them, and it's just absolutely heartbreaking.

It's a hard case.

And one thing I'm never going to forget is during the trial, one of the person taking the photography of the scene said that Libby, poor Libby, who by the way, is nude.

You know, she's fourteen years old at a time when all girls are so just self conscious.

You know, there's streaks down her eye and it's like dirt, but there's a clear path of clear and he said that those were Libby's tears.

It cleared a path.

And I you know, I'm never going to forget that, never forget.

It's an indication of pain response and when you see that, you know that and I've always held this that this was a torturous death, that this was not a quick death, and even the forensic pathologists that did did these autopsies states that on the stand that these were not a medium deaths, that they would have lingered for a period of time.

There was an awareness of what was happening to them, staring up either at him or to that sky and the trees above them, and this is the last thing they're going to see.

And we know that true be true based on the blood pattern.

You know, in the woods there's pools of blood and by the way, it's all Libby's blood.

There's pools of blood, and we know that she walked through her own blood because her blood is on the bottom of her feet.

So she gets her throat slashed, and your first thing is going to be to grab it, right, So that's what she does, and that's why her hands are bloody.

And then she's stumbling.

She grabs a tree, and that's where the f tree comes.

We're going to talk about that in a second.

She grabs a tree, she's stumbling and walking through her own blood where she and then she finally comes to rest and she sits down and she's pooling more.

And then finally lays to rest, So we know it took a minute.

Abby.

We're not one hundred percent sure on I don't think, but Libby definitely definitely suffered.

It's hard to talk about it's a little kid.

These are two beautiful little kids, two beautiful girls.

And again, you know what comes next is all so pretty compelling because there have been Richard Allen's family says he's innocent, bottom line, right, So we want to kind of unpack that.

Despite the fact that he is arrested and goes to trial and is found guilty, some have suspected that there was maybe a cult involved that was operating in the area.

So stick with us.

This is true crime tonight.

We'll be right back with more.

Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

We're talking true crime all the time, and we're talking about the Delphi murders and the tragedy in Delphi, Indiana.

And Joseph and Body have been following this case so closely from day one.

It's sensitive, Body continues, sorry to have to cut you off earlier.

Now it's fine.

So in October twenty twenty two, Richard Allen was arrested and charged with the murder of Abby Williams and Libby Jermy after the case had gone unsolved four years five six years after their death, a suspect was finally apprehended in charge for the murder of thirteen and fourteen year old.

Upon his arrest, the forty eight year old pharmacy technician husband and father pled not guilty, but nearly two years later, Richard Allen was sentenced to one hundred and thirty years of prison as he was found guilty of these murders.

A tip that I spoke about earlier that Alan had submitted himself back in twenty seventeen admitting he had been on the trail that day of the murders, was rediscovered in twenty twenty two by a volunteer who was kind of like organizing case files.

And during that twenty twenty two search of Richard Allen's home, police located that sig Sawyer P two twenty six pistol, which forensic analysis tied to the unspent forty caliber rounds left at the scene.

Again, this is not a fired bullet, but they matched that gun to that bullet austriations from racking it, which is what they are that Richard Allen had done in a menacing way to kind of threaten the girls and to get them to be compliant.

So here's the thing.

Richard Allen was not housed in county jail while he waited trial.

Richard Allen was sent to the Westville Correctional Facility, which is a prison.

So he's technically an innocent man, but he's being held in a prison.

And why how how is that possible?

And wasn't he in solitary confinement?

Yeah?

It was a safekeeping order they I believe they said it was due to protect him.

Because again, this is like a child killer, you guys, right, Like, they've got to put him in like protective custody.

And they didn't have the facilities in Delphi, Indiana to take care of this.

So he was sent to the Westville Correctional Facility and he was put in solitary confinement.

And while he was in solitary confinement, he started acting kind of crazy.

All right, I don't know how to say it.

He started acting kind of like he was losing his marbles.

On top of that, he started confessing to the crimes and he would say things like I did it, I killed Abby and Libby.

He would confess to his psychologist, who I've got a lot to say about.

I've got a lot of really negative things to say about her.

He confessed to his wife, and he confessed to his mother.

Now his psychologist, guys, doctor Walla is a true crime fan and she's in all the Delphi discussion groups.

By the way, is that lean about this case?

Wow?

So again the person who's the analyst who's analyzing his mental health and ability to be at trial.

By the way, I have no skin in this game.

I'm just surprised that anybody can be put into solitary confinement while waiting for trial, because it's intended to make you crazy.

It's intended to do that, right.

So now you've got people in myself included, who, by the way, want nothing but for the person who did this to be put in jail for the rest of their life.

But now you've got people questioning things because of all this crap.

You know, I'm a believer in law enforcement.

I believe in the system.

I don't like having questions about somebody's guilt or innocence, you know what I mean.

I don't like it at all.

I like to be convinced and the situation surrounding Richard Allen's incarceration and what they basically did to him while he was incarcerated in prison makes me kind of question if those confessions are actually valid or if they are the ramblings of a crazy person.

Because he was on Haldall and he was on all these they put them on all kinds of crap.

Then you got doctor Walla, who's you know, his psychologist, his confidant, going into Gary Hughes, investigates Frickin' channel talking about the Delphi case all night.

I just don't like it.

I don't like it at all.

It doesn't sit right with me.

And by the way, you're not alone on that.

There's been a ton of chatter on all sides of this case.

On the one hand, of course, everyone wants justice for these two beautiful girls and their families have been through excruciating pain, and on the other that's pretty uncustomary.

So, yes, he has the same gun apparently in his home that very bullet was found in between the bodies.

Yes, there's a shoe print that apparently, you know, fits his size and the type of shoe grid he had.

And by his own admission, because he called in to tip off the police just to say, hey, yeah, I was in the area at the time.

He's kind of basically calling in a tip as a good samaritan.

Now years later, fast forward, that ends up being something being held against him, and then he confesses in various ways while in protective custody.

Also, he was in solitary confinement.

Right, and then don't forget over the course of the six years that you know, this investigation was, you know, happening before an arrest was made.

We received four different sketches and they all look different.

None of them look like Richard Allen, not a single one.

They all look different.

One's an old man, one's a skinny young man, one's just a young man.

I mean, they are wildly different.

But every time I bring up, I don't know if Richard Allen did this or not.

Here's what I'm told.

Richard Allen admitted to being on the trail that day.

Richard Allen is Bridge guy, Bridge Guy killed the girls.

That's what I get told, Like almost like sit down and shut up, body.

Interesting because they don't nobody really wants to kind of revisit this.

But his family is standing by his side and claiming that there was other circumstances in and around the area, potentially a cult that was operating nearby.

We don't have to super get into this, but there was this allegation that there's a cult, an odinous cult, and that means that maybe there was some sacrificial stuff going on.

Perhaps the branches and some of the leaves and things that were discarded on their bodies when they were found, maybe that was linked.

Maybe some of these pools of blood that body you described so scarily or in such scary detail from Libby's body, like them on the tree, et cetera.

They thought it was like a run.

One of the Todd Klick, he's a he's an investigator with the Indiana State Police.

He kind of thought, maybe this kind of looks like the everything's kind of staged, is what he thought.

And they called in a professor from Purdue that like has knowledge about these cults.

And in the area of Delphi, they have this Vinlanders cult, which is this motorcycle gang that is an odinist.

Now again, normal people practicing Norse paganism are not bad people, but it's been hijacked by these white supremacists, This this odinist cult, these Norse symbols, you know, symbols and whatnot, and Todd Klick kind of thought that, you know, maybe these Vinlanders might be involved.

Well, turns out one of the Vinlanders son is dating Abby.

I mean, that is a pretty harrowing detail.

It's kind of compelling till what it says.

What does that mean to you?

So?

What is that?

What do you make of that?

Do you think there's any validity to that, Joseph, do you think that has merit?

Well, this is the thing, because it's not just the one percenters.

I'm assuming that that's what they are that are involved in this.

Their supposition has been that there's an entire collection of these individuals that work at this prison.

So well they admitted.

By the way, since you bring that up, Richard Allen said that he was being threatened by prison guards wearing odin patches.

Okay, because okay, and everyone's like, yeah, okay, whatever, Nope, next document release, we have guess what we have the warden admitting, yeah, his guards are wearing odin patches.

So Richard Allen is saying, I confess because I'm under thread at the prison.

I'm going crazy.

Now you've got these odin patched prison guards.

You know, signing affidavit said, yeah, they wear patches in prison.

It was kind yeah, that would.

Be allowed relative to unofficial uniform because in those uniformed environments like that, they're very specific how you're supposed to address and listen.

The thing about prison is that everything in prison, no matter how passive it is, means something.

And you know all you have to look at tats, You look at the way sign languages done, people behave.

There's certain ways ways you walk, there's certain ways you talk, who you talk to, what you do.

That's, you know, to me, that was interesting.

Here's another thing.

I always wondered about the forensics of those branches, trying to understand if they had been tool marked or not.

Joseph, they them, you know, they left them there for three weeks.

What does that mean exactly if they left them there, well, they didn't.

Collect them and bring them in.

And these are like, these branches are overlaying the bodies in a way.

I think you guys use stuff.

I think you mentioned camouflage a little while ago, so it couldn't be seen from above.

Okay, I'll give you marks for that, but I've seen these illustrations.

There's one kind of famously infamously that's out there where it's a diagram that has been drawn and these branches are laying over and people are saying, it's almost like watching somebody do a magic trick with cards.

Here, look at this, you know, they're saying, you can see this letter, you can see this formation, and yeah, in the way the branches are laid there.

Yeah, and so why is there not more evidence of a bunch of people?

So if this is a okay, let's just go with it.

Let's say it's a sacrifice.

Let's just say that, why is no more ground disturbed around this area where you've got people marching in to witness this?

And and why are they going to do it in broad daylight when you know that there's uh, it just seems it seems as though.

And listen the post mortem interval piece to this, the status of their bodies when they were examined, it kind of marries up with the time that approximates when they disappeared.

So that's that's a big, big piece to this.

One other thing too, that not much hay has been made over is the distance between walking distance and direct walking distance between Richard Allen's house and the location you can literally walk across.

I think it's like two pastures.

Nobody's going to see you.

You can approach off of Logan's property and descend down into this area and never be seen.

You just kind of poof.

There's no need to park a car, there's no and so you can actually walk back and forth.

So for me, that's always kind of stacked up in my mind relative to pointing back to him.

And the thing about it is, he never left.

As you guys mentioned, he has intimate knowledge of this area and the fact that you've got an individual, in my opinion at least, that's acting out a devious sexual play in his mind with these young girls that he can influence and do these things with.

You know, all signs point to him.

From my perspective, I think that to be more satisfied, I'd like to have more connectivity from a DNA perspective, footprint evidence, all those sorts of things.

But you know, it's a done deal now.

Now, will they uncover some sinister group that's actually behind the scene.

I don't know, Maybe they will.

I hope they continue to investigate.

I do too, And you know, with appeals coming, maybe they'll have some new evidence to share with us.

I hope they do.

One thing about this trial that was really hard, you guys, is that everything there was a massive gag order in this like one of the strongest.

I've even the family right in your gag in this case, which is really unusual.

And so when it went to trial, the only way you could really know what was going on is it that you were inside the courtroom, because no media was like, there's no there's no photography, there was nothing allowed, no audio, nothing.

So after each day everybody would sit around and listen to people who were inside the courtroom that day, and depending on who you listen to, is what you heard.

So if you're listening to a pro defense side of the aisle, you're going to get all the bad things the state did, and if you're listening to a pro state here about what a bad and evil person Richard Allen is.

It was very very interesting because like mass media, like normal media like that live in whatnot in Indiana were provided really even the family.

Yeah, I mean, it's it's been very difficult, and so maybe because of that, I've just I'm left very unsatisfied with this case, like, I just have it in my head that there's something that's going to convince me.

And listen, it's not important to convince me.

I just want to be convinced.

I'm just nosy and I need to know what happened.

I think this case, I got to tell you, I think it's precedent setting in a sense that this is a perfect example.

While we do need cameras in the courtroom and all of this conspiratorial stuff, all that stuff just kind of vanishes in the air.

And look, you don't have to show the pictures.

We've seen this played out over and over again.

You don't have to show gory pictures.

You can block that out, doesn't have to be seen.

But just to catch what's going on in there and to understand the tenor of the conversation is very important here and so much.

So in this case.

Yeah, and this is a shiny example of what happens in the dark, right, because all this stuff has happened in the dark, and we have to rely on other people's stories to tell the American public, and I just don't like it.

And by the way, it does speak a lot also to again, Liby and Abigail, their families, our hearts are with them, but also how smart she was to be able to take her phone and to snapchat something live at two o seven pm.

That audio video whatever forty three seconds that she was able to record was one of the most critical pieces of information.

Right, So I would have to imagine this case is going to continue, and to your point, Body, there's likely appeal after appeal after appeal to come.

Right now, he's looking at one hundred and thirty years sixty five per victim claims his innocence and his wife stands by him.

Yeah, and she's insistent that he's innocent, and you know she's standing by him.

And whether you know right or wrong, you have to admire that she's not given up on her husband.

And she absolutely does not listen.

Either she does not believe it or she is in bad denial.

Joseph any predictions, I know we have to wrap it up, but.

No, it's yeah, it's going to go up on appeal, and I think I'm kind of reinvigorated by the proposition that new stuff could be introduced, because in order to form an appeal you have to bring forth new substance information.

Yeah, what that information will be will see what else have they uncovered.

Do they have a team that has the ability to uncover stuff, because I can tell you there's a lot of attorneys out there that would love to make their bones on a case like this.

So we'll see what happens during the course of the appeal.

Wow, big show listen.

Thank you for sticking with us.

Wishing you a fantastic rest of your holiday weekend.

Please remain safe out there.

This is True Crime Tonight.

We've been talking true crime all the time and we will be back soon.

This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

We're retalk true crime all the time.

I'm Courtney Armstrong.

I'm here with Crime Analyst.

Body move in.

Do not forget.

If you've missed any part of the show, you can always catch the podcast.

Joining us now is the award winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos.

He is a trusted voice in the radio world.

He is a reserve officer with Miami's police Department and on his podcast, he teams up with Cold Case Homicide Unit.

He does that to re examine unsolved murders and give families a renewed voice.

Enrique, welcome, Thank you so much Courtney.

Congratulations on the success of this podcast as well.

Well, thank you.

We're welcome hopefully we're so big as you one day exactly.

And it's trusted, let's add you know, and it's trusted.

You're very trusted.

I went and read all about you and you are like incredibly trusted in your community and you you take that very seriously, and I just I really wanted to commend you on that real quick.

Thank you.

It's a blessing to be able to represent my community and Latinos that live simultaneously and two two worlds at the same time, English and Spanish and living you know, bi cultural and doing wearing so many different hats at iHeart and broadcasting and in law enforcement.

It's a I ticket with a great deal of responsibility.

Well and you wheeled it well, Erique.

So off of that, So you have worked in law enforcement, can you explain a little bit, because I got to hear your background on your fantastic podcast, talk to us about working in law enforcement and also how that shaped the way you approach these cold cases in your podcast.

Sure, so let's start with cold case files Miami.

Right, it's more than just a I would say more than a just a true crime podcast.

It's a it's a personal mission for me.

As a reserve police officer in the city of Miami, I've seen firsthand the pain that lingers when when justice is delayed or never comes for some people unfortunately.

You know, I've talked to frustrated detectives who carry these cases with them for decades, and families who are still searching for answers.

Many of these, you know, parents, especially the mothers.

Got to applaud them.

It's like, Wow, I've learned so much doing this podcast.

They've turned their grief into into purpose, and some of them have created foundations, community efforts to support other victims and families, and they keep their loved ones memories alive.

And that's probably That's a lot about what the spirit of this podcast came about and why I decided to do it.

That's exactly why we created Cold Case Files Miami in partnership with a School of Humans, and of course iheartsmicha will do to podcast network.

So we go beyond the head lines.

We re examine evidence with forensic experts.

We dive into how breakthroughs and fingerprinting in DNA and are changing the game and evolving and how it's evolved since its inception years so many years ago, right, and giving a voice to those whose stories have been left left behind.

So they're not just statistics.

These are these are these stories are about people, sons, daughters whose lives were stolen tragically, senselessly.

Many of these cases, some people out there still may know something that can help solve them.

Right.

So it's like I feel a sense of responsibility beyond the badge, beyond my work as a reserve officer.

I'm a former full time police officer, left the police work to do broadcasting.

I live in these two awesome worlds, so I get how can I really do something for these victims in these families and.

Especially a really unique position, right like you are living in both worlds.

I've never met anybody that's done that before, and I think it's I'm going off script here.

I think that's really cool.

I think that is really, really, really cool because you're able to get big national attention on cases while also speaking the language of law enforcement.

Right, that is a really unique position, and you wield it well.

I think this is your crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body Moven and right now, we're joined by the award winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos, and we want to hear from you.

Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime and leave us a voicemail or hit us up on the talkbacks using the iHeartRadio app.

No, you just described very well the spirit of why I do it and why I try to use my platforms in a positive way.

Right So, speaking to my experience as a police officer that has definitely been critical about who I am.

I was a police explorer as a young man, then became a police dispatcher, then into the police academy, then into police work, and then I bumped into broadcasting kind of by accident.

So I do two things that I'm absolutely absolutely passionate about and that I love doing, and again that it's critical, and I use my platform again to do something positive.

So, you know, going back to law enforcement, Yeah, I've been through the crappy parts of it.

I've stood over dead bodies.

I've interviewed devastated witnesses and been part of that the pursuit to bring killers to justice.

I've also had to you know, knock on doors and deliver the horrible news, the worst possible news to families that their loved ones aren't aren't coming home.

I've done that, I've been that.

I've had to do that since I was a young police officer at the age of nineteen, fresh out of the police academy.

That kind of trauma, I would say, it doesn't fade, you know, it gives me a very very real understanding of the pain that these families and investigators carry.

So when I revisit cases like our episode one, which was sixteen year old Brian Herrera who was killed in broad daylight, he was shot and killed in the streets of Miami years ago for his cell phone, or joy Sapp who was a beloved woman who was murdered in Liberty City here in Miami, and.

Talk about episode one just really quick, absolutely because that it staggered me, just the senselessness, like you said, it was, you know, over a cell phone that he pointed out it wasn't even connected to you couldn't even make a phone call.

It was so he could play games.

And he was an a student and go riding his bike to his friend's house to do his homework over Christmas.

So sad devastating, But.

I also I think everything you were speaking about before, your experience in dealing with families who have lost the most important people in their lives, it gives you the pathos to, you know, tell the stories in a really compassionate way and really highlight because his mother what a force of nature and handing out the photos.

Can you talk about the the importance that victims' family members can play as cases go on.

One hundred percent.

Specifically with episode one, Brian Herrara, the sixteen year old that was shot and killed for his cell phone.

It was horrible because like it was Christmas time, right, and he had a younger, younger sister that still lives today, but she was too young then to understand what was going on with her with their brother who had just been murdered.

Christmas was approaching, so Santa is still coming.

Hearing Brian's mom tell that story, how devastated, how heartbreaking that was that they were dealing with the murder of their son at the very same time having to deal with Christmas and trying to keep Brian's younger sister, their young youngest daughter, shielded from all this negative negativity and new life and the connection is very real, not just for the family, but also you know, have a colleague of mine, a former Miami police officer that heard the episode and he called me right away when episode one dropped about Brian her Era, and he remembered everything he told me.

And I was on the scene.

I remember seeing Brian shot.

I helped coordinate with the fire rescue to get him transport and all that kind of stuff.

That gave me the chills.

It was a reminder that these cases still live in the memories of the people who were there, the law horseman officers, the first responders, more especially the families.

Right when it comes to the parents who've lost children to violence, that I would say, they want they want closure right and they deserve it.

I think we can all agree there.

You know, imagine losing your child in this descript and this herndous story that we just laid out.

In episode five, I talked to a very strong woman named Tangala Sears, and she was never getting clear answers after her son was murdered, so she turned her pain into purpose.

She founded an organization here in Florida called Parents of Murdered Children.

There's another woman named Lawrence Webb in episode two.

Well, Lawrence was murdered when she was thirty two.

This was in twenty thirteen.

Her case lingered in limbo despite a known suspect, So they knew who the guy was, but they didn't have enough evidence to charge them.

So imagine living with that trauma too.

It's like, we got it.

They're pressuring the police departments, they're pressuring the state attorneys off.

These families are forced to live in a suspended state of grief.

Yeah, they want to know why, they want to know who, and they want to know, you know, to know that the system didn't forget about them, that the system didn't forget about their loved one.

Was she the mother and that was also quite another absolute powerhouse of a human with her resolve to just keep calling and making sure that people did not forget and calling and calling.

I think another thing that your series does really well, that Cold Case Files Miami does really well is also while telling the personal stories, you also give listeners some knowledge of sort of legalities.

I think it was episode two where an officer is speaking about, well, we have enough suspicion that we can arrest someone, but then you have to go to the prosecutors and they have a different stand and that's just the reality, and you know sometimes it's I don't know, there's a lot of obstacles to get to final justice.

One hundred percent.

Yeah, Episode two with Laurent's a Web, the thirty two year old that was shot in twenty thirteen, So a suspect had emerged right within days, but formal charges didn't follow for like five years afterwards.

So we explore in this episode, you know, why justice was delayed and if the case can still hold up in court.

And that's another big problem with with these with these cases, you know, they go for a long time unsolved.

These cases collect dust on the detectives sometimes retire, they move on to other units.

The witnesses aren't so clear about what they saw.

They they don't remember their memory, you know, fades.

So those are all that factors in absolutely how much has.

The advancements in forensics helped bring new hope to old cases that you've experienced.

This has got to be one of my favorite episodes, which is episode three, because I talk with Miami Dade County State Attorney Catherine Fernandez Rundel, So I'll give you a little background on Kathy and why I'm so proud of her and what is and what she's done in Miami Dade County.

So, Kathy's been the state attorney for Miami Dade County for thirty years.

She's the first Cuban American and Hispanic woman to ever hold that role in the state of Florida.

So really, yeah, she's led one of the she's led one of the largest prosecutor offices in the country, it's Miami Dade County for over thirty years, and has been a pioneer in criminal justice reform.

Truly, she's a powerhouse.

She's created specialized courts for domestic violence, for mental health, which we know finally is getting the attention that it deserves now these days for our vets.

She's very respected and it was great to sit down and talk with her.

She told me something and I'll never forget, you know.

She said, the truth always rises, and she meant that literally, because there's a case that she made reference to as a mister Bates, a man who had gone missing after a hurricane hit here in South Florida.

The floodwaters unearthed this briefcase and inside was mister Bates's body.

So that's wild, right, So the discovery led to the reopening of his case and the conviction of a former business partner for his murder.

So cases like that are now solvable because how far forensic science has come.

One major turning point, of course, was in two thousand and one, the year the Human Younome Project released its first full draft of the Human DNA Map.

Right, that changed everything.

It gave scientists and law enforcement the tool to analyze partial DNA samples with a precision that simply didn't exist before.

So since two thousand and one, i'd say two thousand and one was the year DNA moved from the lab to the streets.

It turned cold cases into solvable cases, victims into identity, and suspicion into scientifically backed proof.

And Kathy really dives into how all this has changed.

She explains, how, you know, the advancements and fingerprint technology and DNA databases like cotis, you know, the combined DNA index system that we're seeing justice catch up with with time.

I'd say COTIS alone has assisted over half a million, you know, investigations, many involving decades old evidence.

And it's a reminder that science can give families something they haven't had in a long time, which is hope.

Right.

I love that you have such a wide range of cases that you talk about, and you look into some that are totally cold and been cold for decades and some that have gone to trial or like that are completely closed, but that there's doubts about.

Right, Like the episode led by detectives Zachary Scott, what can you tell us about that?

Well, with Zachary Scott is very interesting because this was a gentleman that lived in Brazil, and this guy was a wife abuser.

There's evidence of it to the point where he shot his wife.

There's thoughts that his wife, the wife's family member put a hit out on him.

He disappeared for a while.

But the tie with Brazil.

In South Florida was really fascinating.

Right.

There was two women murdered here in two different jurisdictions in South Florida, one in Broward County and that's where detective Zachary Scott works, and another one in the City of Miami where I'm a reserve City of Miami police officer.

But there were similarities in the case.

They had found the bodies, they had DNA, but they couldn't match it to anybody.

Make a short story long.

This was fascinating this whole episode because this detective was able to connect the dots between his officers in Broward County, the police officers in the city of Miami, and law enforcement in Brazil get the Brazilian authorities to cooperate for the first time in history.

They thought this man had faked his death when they thought that this was the man, but they needed his DNA to confirm that the match on the two women in Florida.

They actually got the DNA from his daughter who cooperated with the Brazilian authorities.

So it was fascinating.

And he goes into this whole investigation that spanned countries in decades before finally unveiling and being able to really pin these two murders on this women.

It's fascinating to get this detective to open up and tell me.

When I asked him, do you think there were more women that were murdered?

I said, He says absolutely.

He was addicted to street workers.

It was confirmed that these women in Florida were sex workers.

The argument that he got into his wife where he shot her in Brazil, was over his involvement with prostitutes.

Coming up more with the award winning hosts of Cold Case Files Miami Enrique Santos, keep it right here True Crime Tonight.

This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime all the time.

I'm Courtney Armstrong here with crime analyst Body Moven.

We are back with award winning host of Cold Case Files, Miami, Enrique Santo's.

Welcome back in Riek.

Thank you so much for being here and for all the incredible work you're doing with Cold Case Files Miami.

I mean it's hard enough to work with agencies in other counties, yes, let alone another country.

I mean, that's pretty that's pretty great.

At him that he was able to pull that off.

It gets more fascinating because he was able to use case law to prove to Brazil a case that had happened just prior or a couple of years prior, where they actually, for the first time ever, the court system in Cuba convicted somebody for a crime that happened in the United States.

So that's set precedent.

There was case law.

They used that as example, and they used that to convince the Brazilian authorities to cooperate.

It truly fascinating.

Yeah, it really was a very very cool listen and it almost felt like like you're eavesdropping on the two of you sort of talking it out.

It was.

It was a different it was a different vibe slightly than the other episodes in which I've really enjoyed sort of Buddy and I were talking about earlier, just the you're on a ride with all of these episodes.

Thank you, Courtney.

What is kind of a two part question, how do you choose your cases?

And also what's one case that's really sort of really stuck with you?

So in the selection of these cases has been really organic kind of how they come about.

I have family members, lifetime friends, ex coworkers, still partners on the police department who are tied to a lot of these cases.

A lot of that, there's a lot of them.

There's information where they might have leads, so and we don't want to ruin anything.

They don't want to ruin a case or the chances of where they're you know, they're right on the tail of somebody, and so we don't want to talk about it because it's almost right at the you know, the borderline of getting of getting solved.

So that really dictated of how much information of unsolved cases we were to put out.

And then I said to the team, and collectively we said, why don't we talk about the success story too, not just I mean this, this podcast series would be successful if we're able to bring closure to some of these families.

Number One, humanize these these people and and they you know, remind people that what the toll is of all this violence, and it's fascinating, heartbreaking by the same time inspiring to hear these family members destroyed, their lives totally shattered, how they've put themselves together, and how many of them are now helping other families move forward through the organizations, through through other support groups, even just telling their story to me and participating in this podcast.

This is true crime Tonight on iHeart, I'm Body Moven and we are joined tonight by the award winning host of Cold Case Files, Miami, Enrique Santos, and we want to hear from you.

Hit us up on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

You know, it's one thing, that's one thing I really struggle with, is I get to attach to people and their story.

How do you balance this emotional weight of all these stories that you're covering while still doing your job as a journalist and storyteller.

How do you how do you manage that?

Because I'm personally struggling.

Well, I let me tell you there's no manual, right, uh for this.

And you've got experiences because you've done You've done great work.

And congrats on your series on on on Netflix for doing what's right.

Look, how much you stirred up a lot, but you did.

It for the right reasons, right if you have a good heart, I think you know, and good intentions.

Right, But don't you feel like do you do you struggle with the emotional toll because you are taking on a big like when somebody is full of hope.

Yeah, and you're you know, taking that on.

That's a that's a big burden for yourself.

Sure.

As cops, you know you're training the police academy to stay detached.

I would say arms distance when you're when you're when you're involved in these cases, don't you know.

But when you're telling the story of someone like Brian Hurre, you can't help but feel it.

It's real.

I mean, you're listening to their mothers.

The historian of the sister and how they had to continue on going the life, their life goes on, and so they have to celebrate Christmas the same week that they're burying their son.

There there there's you know, there these there are these cases that there you feel the true weight of it and the real human loss.

And I've learned to compartmentalize.

I'd say the best I can, but but I won't pretend it doesn't take a toll.

It absolutely takes a toll.

And that in the one episode where we dive into there's one where we dive into the emotional cost for first responders, episode five with tangelaus Sears, and we tell this and the truth is, listen, law enforcement has some of the highest suicide and alcoholism rates of any profession.

More officers, as a matter of fact, die die by suicide than in the line of duty.

You would think it's different right now with so much police officers right now, but yeah, more officers die in the United States by suicide than in the line of duty.

And that the numbers prove that.

And that's why I supported organizations like Bleeding Blue.

These are two Miami Dade County sheriffs and deputies.

They're brothers, friends of mine, and they formed this nonprofit.

They're doing this amazing work organizing peer support groups, counseling resources, and conferences to help first responders.

When I graduated the police Academy when I was nineteen, there was a block on a mental health The psyche is there if you need to talk to them after a shooting or after a critical incident.

But the truth of it is that not too many people follow up on that.

It was at that time kind of looked down upon, not just for for police, but also for fire and rescue first responders.

You know, it seems like weaker or something like that.

They think like, oh, something's wrong with him or her, like they need psych like they're weak, they're not strong as Unfortunately, I mean its to them.

Oh that's horrible.

I think that's a society thing though too.

I think society was doing all that unfortunately.

Yeah, And then think also if you're if you're a police officer and you're just seen a traumatic event, it's not the nine typical nine to five job right right where.

You know, Hey, honey, how how was work today?

Oh?

So and so got a new promotion and I got a new office, and everything went fine, No, I just a police officer comes home, you know, they take their bulletproof vest off and hang up their duty belt, and they're trying to not remember that person that they did CPR on, that that passed away, the kid that they pulled out of a pool that they didn't make it.

You know, someone that was stabbed to death, or a gunshot victim, or somebody you know in real bad shape in a car accident.

These are all real emotions.

So we need more these conversations and like the ones we're having right now, to explain that these are these are real traumas and that the first responders have a very very they carry a lot.

Yeah, they did well, and just like victims are real people and we need to humanize them, so are the cops, right, the cops that are experiencing this.

I just watched a body cam footage of I think it was out of Baltimore, and it was a couple of cops pulled this woman over and in her trunk in a suitcase for two children.

And when they discovered this, these cops broke down.

I mean it was and they were they were very upset, and it really humanized I don't know why I didn't think about cops as being, you know, having these kinds of problems, but they were horrified and so sad.

They were babies, you know, And so I mean, it is important to remember that police officers and law enforcement and first responders are human and they have to witness the most horrific thing on the worst stay possible for someone.

And we need to be a little bit nicer to cops, even though I.

Don't want to be to the nice ones we do, but I will say and be totally transparent and honest that you know, there's people that shouldn't be wearing their right.

That's in every profession, right, like in every profession, people probably shouldn't be doing those jobs.

But in the case of like cops, though, they wield a lot of power.

So there's a bad power dynamic with those bad people.

But hopefully those are a foreign few between.

They are majoritia officer men and women in the United States.

Are they do it for the right reasons.

I agree, and and they're true professionals.

And I think just off of what you said, body of being, you know, surprised to see them break down.

I think it is also because so many of us, myself included.

You know, we grew up and.

It's almost like policemen when women firemen and women are superheroes and you just hold them in that and then you think, you know, you don't actually think of, oh, these are human beings and they need to actually deal with these emotions as well.

So, Enrique, I believe you've called Cold Case Files Miami a mission.

Yeah.

Is there an impact that you hope this podcast has?

For sure?

Again, listen, if we can solve just one cold case or get one step closer to justice, I feel like it was all worth it.

But beyond solving crimes, I hope that this podcast helps.

Like we just spoke about humanizing the victims, humanizing the players that are involved, that the public understands that police officers want these things these cases solve just as much as the victims do.

And it's very frustrating for them too when they hit you know, legal crossroads, when they hit a brick wall, when they don't get people to cooperate for whatever the reasons are.

And there are many reasons why people won't come forward and don't want to cooperate.

People like Joyce sap An episode four, a community leader like Laurence Webb again in episode two, who just just begun rebuilding his life, Or like the three women murdered in the early two thousands whose stories Detective Zachary Scott that we spoke about and that he helped us revisit in episode six, they were more than victims.

These were daughters, neighbors, professional students, people just like you and I, right, like us, right, and their stories deserve to be heard, remembered, and these victims deserve to be to be honored.

So I feel that we're honoring them in telling their stories.

Yeah, I mean, as as a listener, I couldn't agree more.

Absolutely.

You know, it feels important what you're talking about in the stories you're telling, And I'm proud.

I don't know if this happens to you to you do too.

When you listen to your podcast, you don't listen, Okay, you sound like me and my radio show.

I try not to listen.

I don't like listening to my voice, and I get really picky, and then why would Yeah, so I overthink things.

But and I listened to this final product I've actually the first one, of course I heard, was was episode one with Brian her Are.

But I was so proud of our team at iHeart and of School of Humans because they really transported.

They did it such an excellent job, mixing in the stories and investigating and helping me find the victims, family members and the detectives involved.

They did a phenomenal job.

I'm proud of the work that we've done.

You should be.

I mean, you are very well rounded.

Even just one is monumental and a closure for this family.

Like you said, I think I've used this term before too, they're living in suspended animation, like their life is completely on hold.

Right.

I had a cousin that went missing for twenty one years, and you know, my aunt was one hundred percent suspended animation her whole life, well not her whole life, but a big portion of her life.

How'd you deal with that?

She drank?

But yeah, I mean.

It's you know, she's gone now, bless her, but you know it's it's horrific.

So just just one family, and that in the the butterfly effect that has you know, outward to you know, extended family and even co workers and friends and neighbors.

You're changing so many lives by just solving one of those cases.

So hats off to you.

I mean that I really thank.

You, thank you, thank you know what.

To me, I say hats off to the investigators, to the family who keeps knocking on doors, and to all the people that that opened up and that shared their their stories of their their loved ones with us.

Wow.

And what can listeners do if they recognize something?

If they have information about a featured case in your podcast's actionable.

Well, if something you you hear in the podcast, uh, you know sparks, sparks some memory, or you know someone who might have seen something or say something, say something I would say, you know, speak up, contact your local police department, or if you prefer to stay anonymous, you can reach out to crime Stoppers.

There's the national hotline one eight sixty six four seven one tips where you can visit crime Stoppers three oh five dot com.

No details too small.

Something you think that is totally insignificant, not important, could be that one missing piece that brings in And it might be just.

Such a small detail that ties that loop right.

I always tell people the details, the devils in the details.

The details matter.

The tiniest, most insignificant thing can make that makes sense that that tip you got ten years ago.

Makes sense and that one little tip could bring peace to a family right that's been waiting far too long.

Right.

Wow, well, thank you so much.

Thank you absolutely anything else, Enrique.

We've held you hostage and we just toss your time.

But is there anything else?

Listeners should know where to find you, where to listen to you.

Anything.

Absolutely, Thanks again, congratulate relations on True crime tonight.

I'm a fan.

I host a nationally syndicated Spanish show out of Miami across the country.

We broadcast from two ninety four point nine FM in Miami.

I also host On the Move with Drique Santos that runs nationally on iHeartRadio from coast to coast on Saturday evenings, I'm probably hosting Miami Cold Case Files.

I've got a little bit of backlash, like you're give in Miami a bad light with this podcasts.

Miami isn't just beaches in night life.

We're a lot of fun Miami and the three h five is home to me.

I love it.

It's a Miami is a city of secrets, cultures colliding, and the story is buried beneath the heat.

Cold Case Files Miami, we were digging deep into the side of Miami.

You don't see your coworker post it on Instagram or on TikTok and bikini on the on the beach sipping Pinacola.

But these are true stories involving true people, and hopefully we're able to bring some closure, to much needed closure to these families that there's family.

Their lives have been turned upside down by no choice of theirs, by these violent, horrific events.

I'm so honored to meet you, like for real, I'm not even honored.

Thank you so much for being here and for all the incredible work you're doing with Cold Case Files Miami.

You can listen to the podcast wherever you get your shows, and if you have info on a case, don't hesitate to speak up, keep it here on True Crime Tonight.

Be safe and be well and have a good one.

Thank you, good night, good night,