It's twenty fourteen, back before Victor's arrest.

The manhunt is still underway.

Lindsay's desperate to get Victor found, and she's agreed to a TV appearance.

A camera zooms in as a glass like wall moves apart to reveal Doctor Phil, the psychologist turned TV host.

Doctor Phil walks on stage, waving at a studio audience, and he points to a massive screen.

It shows a video collage of Lindsay as a kid.

Take a look at Lindsay in this video.

She's laughing, playing, having a good time with her family.

But just a few years later, at the young age of thirteen, she says her life would take a tragic turn and she would become a maiden.

A photo flashes of her and Victor and the other maidens.

Phil circles their faces with a digital pointer as he talks.

And when I say maiden, you have no idea what that is going to lead to, because this man right here was a leader of a religious organization.

A pre recorded summary of Lindsay's story plays out for dramatic effect.

At the end, Lindsay is suddenly on stage, sitting in a chair.

She knows what's coming.

She was invited here to confront her father on stage in front of all of America.

From her Cocoa.

Punch and iHeart podcasts, This is the Turning River Road, I Am Erica Lance.

And I'm a Lance Lesser, Part eight, The One Thing.

There was a time when Lindsay thought she might be able to repair things with her dad.

Her mom was a lost cause, she'd given up on that relationship when Peggy refused to accept what Victor had done to her.

Meanwhile, her dad was supportive.

He said he would talk to police.

We listened to a recording of him talking to the Sheriff's office.

He corroborated stories Lindsay had told, stories about times she tried to leave the Maidens, about how Victor sat Lindsay's parents down to tell them he might have sex with her someday.

But once the FBI got involved, Lindsay says her dad backed off and wouldn't help anymore.

The two of them stopped talking.

She says he would write her letters and leave her voicemails trying to connect.

I can't live without you, he'd say.

I need you to forgive me.

I can't live without you forgiving me.

And it seemed to be all about him.

It was this constant need for me to love him and forgive him when I just needed to continue to process and try to heal.

When Doctor Phil's production reached out to Lindsay, she thought maybe this might help her forgive her dad or heal in some way.

Not to mention it might help catch Victor, who was still on the run at that point, so now her dad.

Carmen sat across from her on Doctor Phil's stage in a suit and tie.

In the video, he doesn't seem to speak directly to Lindsay at first.

It feels like he's focused on defending himself.

Sometimes he closes his eyes for a moment while he talks.

I feel overwhelmed.

It's been a year since we've seen each other, and during that time, there's not a day goes by that I don't count the cost of realizing that.

I take my full accountability and responsibility for what had taken place.

But you really don't, because you tell her that you didn't know what was going on at the time.

Right correct Throughout the segment, Doctor Phil is quick to intervene and Pinkarmen to the wall.

It's less a conversation than an interrogation.

The mission is clear to hold Karmen accountable.

Lindsay's extremely upset.

It's painful to watch.

I don't understand why you keep saying you didn't know what happened, and the way your family has treated me has been so awful.

People telling me I need to stop playing the victim and become a survivor.

And I know I still have a lot to grow, but I am a survivor.

I had asked two years ago for forgiveness, and you told me that you don't know if you could forgive me.

But you still don't own this till today, though, do you.

The tension comes down to this.

Carmen says he's accountable, he's responsible, but he also says he didn't know back then that Victor was abusing Lindsay, and that's the trouble or part of it.

Did he know or not?

Doctor Phil plasters excerpts of police reports on a large screen.

He's trying to demonstrate how Carmen keeps contradicting himself that sometimes he told police he did know what was going on back then while it was happening, but he felt too much pressure.

To do anything.

He didn't want to become an outcast and lose everything.

And at other times Carmen said he didn't know back then, Doctor Phil tells Carmen that he's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

All Right, I give you my daughter, but not my blessings.

You can have her, but I don't bless it.

What the hell does that mean?

My perspective was that she was serving in the church.

I didn't know all those other things were happening.

If somebody came to you and said I was fourteen at the time at that time, you really thought if he was bringing it up then that he would wait till I was legal.

This whole scene has clearly built her entertainment and not for Lindsay's well being.

But still, and I can't believe I'm going to say this.

Watching it, I felt like, go doctor Phil.

No one seems to be sticking up for Lindsay except doctor Phil, of all people.

My biggest mistake was to trust the wrong man.

I still didn't give a blessing.

But all of her indications, all of her notes and things that were telling me that she was enjoying where she was.

She was with the child.

In the end, Carmen keeps saying the same thing.

He's sorry, but he also didn't know.

Lindsay looks at her dad and says, at this point in my life, I don't want you in it.

Aylan and I watched in silence until the end of the video.

Well, I think it's just really sad.

I mean, I bet it's so frustrating for Lindsay.

Her dad is half saying sorry, but isn't actually owning up to what he did.

I think it shows how different apologies have such different impacts.

I mean, she feels completely unheard, completely unseen, completely invalidated, completely uncared for.

He has apologized, but he needs to be all over himself apologizing and validating her.

I mean, used to be a therapist when you were treating survivors of sexual assault.

Is this the kind of thing you'd see a lot?

I mean, I feel like this type of dynamic is really common where people who are close to the situation don't want to admit that they were a part of it.

What can be so damaging about childhood sexual abuse is not just the act itself, it's the rippling effects of that abuse, whether it's feeling like all their relationships in their family are ruined, feeling abandoned by those closest to them, feeling like I have no one to talk about this with because also society doesn't like to hear about it.

And what Lindsay feels.

I think maybe her greatest heartbreak these days is how many people did not stand with her.

And it is telling that Lindsay is completely disconnected from her family.

Now they can probably say, oh, that's Lindsay's choice, but she's had to do that because of their reactions, because so many of her family members literally wrote letters supporting Victor Bernard.

Yeah, and it's cloaked in this concept of forgiveness.

It's true, I get it.

For some forgiveness can be very healing, but it's also so kind of like what happens when you're pushing your choice to value forgiveness above everything else on somebody else.

Again, I think every situation is different, but there might be cases where forgiveness actually isn't the most psychologically healthy thing.

And I just remember as a kid going to church, always hearing that forgiveness will allow you to move on.

Forgiveness is the only thing that will allow you to get past something that's painful or torturous, you know, and it's like not necessarily.

Yeah, just because you don't forgive somebody doesn't mean you can't move on.

And I remember I even got trained by probably one of the most famous psychologists in evidence based trauma treatment, and all the time she actually would encourage patience to have an attitude of that person is evil, even encourage that kind of language, you know, like this person is just evil, they don't deserve my time, screw them, screw them.

And this is like one of the leaders of trauma treatment in the world.

I'm not saying she was saying you should do that for everybody.

Different people will process their traumas differently.

For someone else, maybe forgiveness is reparative, but I'm just saying, like, it's not for everybody.

I never really put that together, the forgiveness thing along with that training before.

That's mind blowing to me because it shows how pushing forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, love your perpetrator, love your perpetrator, how incredibly damaging that can be.

This is also why I think it's so important to tell and retell these types of stories, because if we don't, then we don't learn from them.

Maybe even more importantly, I think we need to take the time to listen to and respect, maybe even forget the learn from, just even listen to and acknowledge, and give the time and space for processing things that have happened.

We reached out to Lindsay's dad, Carmen Tornambi, but he didn't want to talk to us for the show.

He did text us.

He told us he didn't know why we want to open old wounds that are trying to heal.

He said, I was not diligent enough to perceive what was going on, and I am sorry for that.

Because of that, I take all the blame on myself and lay it on no one else.

I have to live with that the rest of my life.

But I thank God for his forgiveness.

Around the same time Lindsay was on Doctor Phil, Kristip was in Washington State grappling with her own relationship with her parents entered connection to River Road.

While Lindsay pulled further and further away, Kristip was getting sucked in deeper.

As a child and as a young teenager, young adult, I did believe he was the man of God.

I mean, he taught us the Bible.

He would walk into a room and his presence commanded respect, and I respected him.

He was special to me.

Absolutely, I loved him.

Victor was always very kind to me, like very very kind to me, which I know is not everybody's experience.

Do you have a memory of him being kind to you specifically?

So many, so many.

He taught me how to drive when I was seventeen years old, and he was very kind about it, like he was not mean or intimidating.

He taught me how to take the twists and turns in the road and to not like take them too abruptly and kind of start leaning into them beforehand, and when to start slowing down for a stop sign, and when to put your turn signal on when you're getting off the freeway, and just different stuff like that, stuff that I still have to utilize to this tape.

And so there are like echoes of him even now in your life.

There always will be, there, always will be.

Victor had been kind to Christa, but he was also the man who once spat in her mother's face and rage, the man who led her mom to burn her books in a wood stove to rid the family of darkness, while Christa begged her to stop.

And now she believed he was the man who had raped young girls in their small church community, women Krista knew and had grown up with.

Women she now watched on the news in secret on the tablet she kept in her room against the rules.

And even though Victor was like family to her, she also believed in another truth.

Bad people do good things, good people do bad things, Like it's he did a good thing for me.

And unlike what she'd believed since she was born, she started to think that Victor was not a good person who sometimes did bad things.

Maybe he was a bad person who had done some good things for her.

Now she had to decide what was meant for her life because the person her whole existence and belief system revolved around, the person her whole family followed, was not the man she thought he was.

Krista was now in her early twenties living in a house in Spokane, Washington, a house full of River Road members and higher ups like Jan and her husband.

Nobody knew that I had this tablet.

Nobody knew that I could get my information on my own.

So when the media was reporting a lot about River Road Fellowship and Victor, I read everything everything I could find There was so much that came out in the news.

During that time.

A news crew came to our house.

Everybody shut the blinds and locked the doors.

I was there for that, like peering out the window.

A white van showed up down the street from the house in Spokane.

Krista watched it through the blinds.

She was pretty sure it was law enforcement watching them.

Someone seemed to think Victor was a bad person, and now Christi says she did too, but that was not the norm around her, at least not as far as she could tell.

I was around Lindsay's family, mom's sisters when Lindsay came out to the public.

Everybody in the church, everybody in that area very much had their heads in the sand.

As far as Victor being a criminal and being a rapist, that couldn't have possibly happened.

I know, for me, and I'm sure for Lindsay's mom and her sisters.

We were basically told what to say, how to respond if we were approached by the police or the media.

How are you told to respond?

Well, I was told to respond no comment.

If the media approached me, to walk away.

I was told not to talk to the police.

But at that point I knew that if I was approached that I was going to comment because I needed help getting out and I didn't know how to get out.

And I was like, if somebody from the media or the police are to approach me, I'm going to ask for help.

This is a cult and I need help get me out of this.

Before any of this happened, before Victor was arrested, it seemed like Krista might finally get to taste the outside world.

It was back when River Road first moved to their headquarters from Minnesota to Washington State, back before Lindsay went public.

Christa estimates there were still more than a hundred people following Victor.

Her family settled in Bellingham, Washington, one of the cities that had a cluster of followers.

Christa didn't live on a farm commune anymore.

She didn't have to wear a prairie dress.

She and the other cult members lived in regular houses in regular neighborhoods, with neighbors who had no idea what was really going on inside.

She even tried to go to college.

In River Road, boys sometimes went to college, never the girls, but Krista enrolled in a community college in Bellingham and decided to major in English, read all the books she loved without any threat of someone ripping them out of her hands and throwing them into a wood stove.

She thought she could be a.

Professor or maybe go to law school, and that excited her.

Krista was friendly and personable.

She made friends fast, the first friends she'd ever made who hadn't also grown up in a cult.

Meeting new people felt like a novelty to Krista, since she never really had the opportunity before.

But River Road leaders didn't like what Krista was up to.

They suggested she drop out, a suggestion that Kristin knew was a requirement.

I knew it wasn't completely up to me.

I knew if I said no, that it would be a problem.

They told her she would move from Bellingham, Washington, to Spokane, a city six hours inland, another pocket of River Road Fellowship believers life to there.

That was the place that they brought the younger people to be essentially fixed.

Anybody who was being seduced by the worlds or being corrupted by the worlds, they shipped him off to Spokane to be basically re educated and re manipulated, rebrainwashed, so that was what happened to me.

In Spokane, Krista moved in with Jan and her husband.

It was Jan who'd put Krista on extreme diets when she was eleven that left her hungry every night, what Christa called the worst year of her life.

They grilled her on her personal life when she arrived.

Do your friends from Bellingham still reach out to you?

They asked, Oh, well, then you'll probably have to change your phone number.

An elder told her from now on, her time with her parents would be limited to even though they were still faithful River Road followers.

Christa got a couple of jobs to make money, one at Macy's and one at Baskin Robbins.

After work, she came home for evening fellowships with the other church members.

But then one day Victor Bernard was on the news and Lindsey and Jess were talking about what he'd done to them.

What were you guys told about what was happening?

So I think, you know, in order to answer this adequately, I need to back up a little bit.

So throughout the time at the Shepherd's Camp, you know, Victor had we called it, revealed himself as an apostle, which apostle is somebody who is like a step under Jesus Christ.

He called himself an apostle.

He started to kind of emulate the Apostle Paul in the way that he spoke and the way that he wrote.

Paul was the apostle who traveled around after Jesus' death spreading his teachings.

Victor tried to emulate Paul in his clothing, his travel habits, his writing style.

The Apostle Paul ended up in pro spent the rest of his life in prison in Italy, in this house with a soldier that kept him.

So Victor he would start talking about, like if he went to prison and they could put him in prison for preaching the gospel.

And in my mind, I'm like, we live in America, that's never going to happen.

As a child, I'm like, we have freedom of religion.

We can practice however we choose, Like, why would you go to prison?

So it was very much on the forefront of our minds that Victor could go to prison, and that it was for his status in this world, and that it was for preaching the gospel.

So when it happened, when it actually happened, the whole church was like, oh my god, it's happening.

We're being persecuted.

This is what we've been preparing for.

Looking back, what do you make of that now that Victor was almost preparing everyone for him to go to prison, do you think that was strategic?

Oh my god, yes, oh absolutely.

He knew he was doing something illegal, and he probably knew that if he was caught he would go to prison, so in order to cover his behind and make it sound more righteous and holy than actually what was happening.

Yeah, of course, it was a strategic, very strategic manipulation.

So for some of them, Victor getting arrested may not have deterred their belief in him.

It strengthened it.

What he'd predicted was coming true.

I don't know how many people actually believed that.

I certainly didn't, but I tried to play the part, because what else.

Are you going to do.

Christa waited for the police or a journalist to approach her, for her chance to say, I'm in a cult, help me get out, but no one did, and over the year that followed that first news report, the church leader's control squeezed down even tighter.

Christa was moved again, as always River Road kept its members on the move, not able to fully settle in This new place housed more of the church leaders in addition to Jan and her husband.

Now they lived with Victor's wife and Lindsay's mom, Peggy, the mother of the woman who was now betraying them all, it seemed to some of them on national television.

In the new house, Christa didn't have a private room anymore, so she had even less time alone.

She shared a small room with another woman about her age.

It was a tiny little room and they got us tiny little girl bunk beds, and the whole room was decorated like it was for five year olds.

Like this room was insulting to the fact that we were both in our twenties.

In Victor's absence, the directions and rules were the discretion of Jan and her husband, Ricky, for complicated reasons we won't get into here.

Those are not their real names.

For a long time, Jan played a central role in coaxing the young girls of the group to bend to Victor and his desires.

Now, she and Ricky and the other leaders began to control Christa's finances.

At first, it was pitched as help, which didn't seem like such a bad thing, but help would imply that she had a choice, and she really didn't.

They made me log into my online banking to see where I was spending my money.

That's when it came out that I'd had the tablet because there were some charges on there for like small charges for like Google and stuff like that.

At first, I was like, oh my god, I have no idea what these are.

And then they were like, come on, Kristin.

So I had to tell them about the tablet.

So that was a whole thing.

Obviously, I gotten a ton of trouble.

And that was when jan and Ricky said from now on every month she'd had to turn in her bank statements.

So that he could look over them and see how I was spending my money.

They put Christa on extreme diets again like when she was little.

I did not want to be in more dietary bondage.

But they had her do back to back so called liver glenses.

And while the group had dropped the prairie dress attire, they still had opinions about what Krista wore and started to enact new rules.

They went through her clothes and got rid of most of them.

They told me what I couldn't couldn't wear, and then they took me to Value village and they bought me basically a whole new wardrobe.

No leggings, more high necked shirts and skirts.

One day, on her lunch break, she went to Goodwill and bought herself a sweater.

She got in trouble for it when she got home.

Basically, we're not allowed to buy anything unless you have approval because it needs to be They called it proving.

There's a first in the Bible that says, prove all things hold fast that which is good, and so it had to be proved by somebody that was above me.

So what I started doing was I started taking the money that I was funneling into that checking account and buying my own wardrobe, and I was keeping it in the trunk of my car.

And what I would do was I would wear the clothes that they bought me out of the house, and before I got to work, i'd stop on like a remote area, and I'd quick change into something that I felt more comfortable in, and then on the way home, I'd stop and change.

Back in.

Christa was in physical therapy for a bad knee, but now Jane and Ricky said she couldn't go to appointments without someone to go with her, and no one was free, so she had to stop going to physical therapy.

I was expected to go to work and come straight home.

Don't stop at the store, anywhere you go, you need to have somebody with you.

I didn't have a life of my own at all.

Why do you think they were doing all this?

Well, what they said was that it was to strengthen my walk with God.

What it really was about was control.

It was to cover their own lives.

It was to protect themselves and their own darkness.

To turn that phrase right back around on them.

During this year, I was kind of slowly petering out.

I was getting so tired.

I was over it.

I was so over it.

I actually, at one point when I was at work, let it slip out that I didn't want to go home.

I kind of like just side that under my breath.

I was like, I don't want to go home.

Somebody came up to me and was like, are you okay?

Are you safe?

I was like, yeah, I'm fine.

I just.

Having some problems with my roommates.

And she's like, oh okay.

I came to a point where I was driving down the road.

You know, I had all this fear of if I left, that I would lose everything and I'd have eternal life, but I would maybe not get to be with my family, or I maybe wouldn't get to be with my loved ones.

I'd maybe I'd be stuck on earth for the rest of my life, or you know, in some gen pop of heaven.

You know.

So I had a lot of fear, and I remember driving down the road, and I remember exactly where I was in Spokane, and I had the conscious thought, it was almost thought that was like imposed upon me.

Then I was like, I don't care what happened.

When Jesus Christ comes back, whatever happens to me, it cannot possibly be worse than this.

That thought scared me because we were so manipulated into believing that even though this life was hard and there was a lot of suffering and the leadership was imposing a lot of control on us, that that was freedom.

We were told that that was freedom and that the outside world was bondage.

They could not reconcile that I could not because I was like, this is bondage.

I am in prison.

I'm almost being held against my will.

I know that I could walk out that door anytime, but I will lose everything, my friends, I would lose my home, I'd lose my parents, I'd lose my sister.

I would lose any sense of familiarity that I had whatsoever.

If I out that door and chose to never come back.

Christa wrote a goodbye note and hid it away.

I was intending on leaving in the middle of the night and just leaving the note, and I was like, I'll live in my car, but I wasn't quite there yet.

It was really still really scared.

Christa worked at a call center.

Now it was the only time she was out of view of the other followers.

She'd tell them she had to go in earlier, stay late at work just to be out of the house.

I was saying that I was working like these fifteen hour days, which is ridiculous.

Come on, and soon enough they'd know she was lying when they looked at her bank statements.

But you know, I didn't know what else to say.

Around this time, she started casually seeing a guy.

Christie's co worker set her up with her son, and so sometimes she'd claimed to work late to spend time with him.

One evening she went over to his house.

Hadn't been checking my phone, and I checked my phone.

It was late, and I had like fifteen missed calls the people I lived with, voicemails, texts, where are you?

I had an anxiety attack and I told him what was going on.

I was like, I'm in a cult and I need to get out.

I don't know how, and I'm not quite ready yet, but I need I have to figure it out.

And he was very kind, very understanding, and I went home and I kind of tried to explain it away that I worked late, which nobody believed.

A week later, Krista was at this guy's house again when she got a phone call from a River Road Fellowship Bishop Eric, a young guy in his twenties who the church had decided was leadership material.

Bishop Eric was a few years older than Krista, and she knowed him since childhood.

He'd always been kind to her.

Bishop Eric said he wanted to meet with her.

Ricky and Jan and I hung up the phone and I looked at this young man and I said, I need to get out of there, and he was like, well, what do you need?

I said, I need place to stay and he goes, well, you can stay with me.

He said, if you leave today, you can come here and you can stay with me for as long as you need.

I was like, you know what, I'm going to go to this meeting and they're going to call me out on my quote unquote darkness and I'm just gonna lay it out.

And I suddenly had this like burst of bravery.

I was.

So done, like so done.

Christy went back to the house and down to the basement for their meeting.

Jan said, next to her on the couch, Ricky was there.

Bishop Eric sat across the coffee table.

From her, and he's kind of laying back and he has legs crossed.

I remember he said, first off, Krista, we love you.

That's how he started.

He said, but there's some darkness here that I think we need to address.

He said, So let's start with these long hours that you've said you've been working.

And I said, let me stop you right there.

Christa told them she was seeing someone.

And I said, in frankly, I'm not in a place where I can live here anymore, either, so I think it would be best for me to pack a bag and leave today.

Wow, how did you feel, in that moment.

Kind of in shock that the words actually came out of my mouth because I said it with such conviction, and I wasn't scared at all.

I just was very matter of fact.

And the room got very quiet.

Jane asked Christa about this guy she'd been seeing.

Then Bishop Eric started talking, but she tuned it out.

The whole scene floated away from her.

She was hardly even there.

It took all of the strength I possibly had that I built up my entire life to bring me to that moment right there.

Honestly, I was exhausted.

I think they made sure that I actually meant what I said, and I was like, yeah.

Eric is like, well, you have to go up and tell the rest of the household, and he said, would you like me to stay while you do that or do you want me to leave?

And I said I'd like you to stay.

I went upstairs and told them, and they helped me pack a bag, you know.

I packed a suitcase and a bag of toilet trees and said my goodbyes.

As she was leaving, Ricky said, do you want us to call your parents?

Christa said no, she'd call them.

He said, well, you better call them.

Right away, because otherwise they're going to hear from somebody else.

I got in my car and I started driving, and I decided to take the back roads, and I called my dad and my mom and I told them what happened.

They were surprised.

My dad said, I don't understand christ.

He said, everybody told me you were so happy and that you were doing so well.

And I said, yeah, Dad, everybody told you that, But did you ever hear that from me.

He didn't really say anything, you know, And he's like, well, he said, I have your back, honey, I have your back.

You know, I will always have your back.

And I knew he didn't understand.

Even though he was going to try and make sense of it, I knew that it was not going to be easy, especially for him.

My mom just wanted me to be happy.

That's all my mom has ever wanted was for me to be happy.

My dad is a little bit of a tougher nut to crack.

So I lived with this young man for a little while, and then I found my own place.

I got a cat.

I lived in my little one bedroom apartment for about nine months, and during that time, my whole I mean, my whole world was falling apart.

I birled into a very deep depression.

I almost drank myself to death.

I ended up in the psych word months.

It was not pretty.

It was not a pretty time in my life.

You know.

I was free, but I didn't know what to do with that freedom because I'd never had it before.

I didn't know how to exist as a human adult in this world.

Like I had no frame of reference whatsoever.

So I really fell apart.

I chose to move home because my dad got diagnosed with cancer New Year's Eve of twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, to moved home, and it was really when the healing process began for me.

Her parents were still River Road Followers when she moved in.

Christ has spent a lot of time with her.

Dad during the first several months I lived there, and I was there to support him and I worked with him.

But he really didn't get it.

He really didn't.

He would try to understand, but he just didn't get it.

He just could not put the fact that these things that happened to me.

Were so bad.

He's like, well, getting help with your finances is a good thing, getting help with your diet is a good thing.

These are good things, and you know, in the right circumstances, they can be good things.

It was how they were executed with me that was wrong.

In the spring of twenty sixteen, Christ's parents visited Spokane.

Her dad talked to Victor's wife, who'd been living with Krista before she left.

Christa says she was honest with him.

She laid out what Christa had been through in that house.

They came home from this trip.

And my dad sat down with me in our living room and he's like, can I talk to you for a few minutes, And I said, you know, I was like, yeah.

He goes, I want you to know that I believe you.

Everything that you said happened to you and Spokane.

I believe you, and I am so sorry that you went through that.

Wow.

You know, I took me a minute to absorb what he had just said, and I said, that's all I've ever wanted to hear from you.

That sit down with him and me, where he said I believe you and I'm so sorry that you went through all of that.

It fixed something in me because I knew that I had his support, and that's something that a lot of cult survivors don't get the support of their family.

When they're coming out of it, their family gets left in the situation and they never understand and some of them never even speak to each other again.

But I got incredibly lucky because I had a mom and a dad who cared about me more than they cared about the principle of the church.

And it was absolutely the one thing, the one thing, if I can pick one thing, it is the one thing that allowed me to begin to heal.

And I did, and I still am.

I got sober because I knew that I needed to crawl out of the bottle if I was actually going to be able to address these things.

I took about a year to do that, and then I started to go to therapy and I did that for several years.

And now I'm married to a wonderful man.

I have an incredible little boy who's never going to be told that he's less than who he is, and he's going to get to be anything he wants to be, and I'm going to support him in that.

And he is never going to experience the things that I experienced as a child, not if I can help it, because he is a beautiful human exactly who he is, and I'll be damned if anybody tries to take that away from him next time.

On The Turning, her brother posted something on Facebook asking like to pray for her, and I immediately messaged him what is going on?

What is going on with jess?

The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.

It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me.

Our story editor is Emily Foreman.

Mixing and sound designed by James Trout.

Grace Doe is our production assistant.

Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado.

Our executive producers are John Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norvella and Nikki Etur at iHeart Podcasts.

You can follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com.

I'm Alan Lance Lesser.

Thanks for listening.