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I heard that you have a porn problem?

What is that?

What are you seeing me?

No, that's not it doesn't send it's not sounding me as.

All or Mamma Mia.

I'm your host, Ashani Dante.

Welcome to But are you happy?

The podcast that helps you realize your patterns aren't just because you're a Pisces with the Libra moon.

And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health.

Porn is everywhere, and let's be honest, watching it is super common.

It's a way a lot of people explore their sexuality.

But it's not all harmless, and today we're going to talk about some of the less talked about effects.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn out there shaping some pretty unrealistic and sometimes harmful ideas about sex and intimacy.

Right exactly, I'm going to unpack what porn actually does to our brain chemistry and how it might be influencing our romantic and sexual relationships, often without us even realizing.

This is such an important conversation.

And just to preface, we're not here to shame anyone.

We're talking about sex and porn in an open, honest way because avoiding the topic doesn't make the impact any less real.

This is a very adult conversation about the realities of porn and its impact in our sex lives and beyond.

So do listen mindfully, let's get into it.

I feel like porn is so accessible to really anyone, even kids, right.

Oh, absolutely to anyone, and especially kids.

Right.

And it's funny you bring up kids right at the start, because I was doing some research and reading that apparently porn is now one of the biggest sexual educators that children have.

Research says that about half of boys by the time they reach thirteen, they've seen porn, and for girls, half have seen porn by the age of fifteen.

Wow, this is so young.

That is very young.

And if you think about the type of pornography they have access to, right, it's anything in everything.

You can access pornography websites by just clicking the button that says yep, I'm over the age of eighteen.

There's no real barriers in place, and if.

We think back years ago, you know, we didn't have access to the internet like we do these days.

You'd have to take a long time to download a video or something.

Nowadays, our kids have access to pornography in so many different, quick, easy accessible ways.

It's really alarming when you break it down like that as well, So at that age, what's going on with their brain.

So a couple of things about the adolescent brain, right, it's still very much developing, and two key things to know about the developing adolescent brain.

First of all, it is highly susceptible to emotions and impulses.

Right, So, the limbic system in the brain, which is kind of an older part of the brain which is responsible more so for emotions and impulses, that's very well developed.

But the prefrontal cortex in the brain that helps us regulate ourselves is not so well developed.

So this is why we see teens who are quite impulsive and struggle to sort of make responsible decisions and regulate themselves.

But the other key thing about the developing brain is that it's highly plastic.

And when I say plastic, I mean it's very susceptible to changes.

It's very susceptible to the information that we put into the brain, and this has pros and cons right, brilliant for learning.

It's why kids can learn things so much faster than adults can.

Right.

It's very susceptible to what we put in.

It learns very quickly.

But if we give it the wrong sorts of inputs or unhealthy inputs like pornography, then it's going to be wired to understand those messages and not healthier messages.

So what about the adult brain, how is that different from the adolescent brain.

Yeah, so for both teens and adults.

What happens in the brain when we watch pornography or we have sex, right, anything that's got that sexual nature to it is I'm going to say my favorite word, dopamine is released.

Right, and again, from an evolutionary perspective, we needed dope mean to be released during sexual interactions because this resulted in survival of the species.

We needed people to have sex, We needed that to be a pleasurable and rewarding experience because we needed people and humans to procreate the same Dopamine pathways and reward pathways activated in the brain when people watch pornography, and what we know about these reward pathways in the brain is that over time they can somewhat become desensitized.

So what that.

Means is that we need more of something to get that same feeling of pleasure.

So that might be that we need more pornography, or we need more intense sort of or stimulating pornography to be viewed in order to get that same pleasurable feeling from it.

So then, in a way, that would really impact sex in general too, because if they're consuming all this porn that's releasing all this high dopamine, that would impact naturally your sex life.

Yes, absolutely, And if we put that back in the context of kids, right, if children are watching porn before they've ever even had a sexual experience, right, when we think about what's happening in the brain, they're getting massive dopamine activation from watching potentially some pretty intense pornographic scenes.

Right when they then go and have.

Much less intense experiences in real life, there's a real chance that that's not going to feel as fulfilling or satisfying or as exciting or pleasurable as what they've seen on the videos online.

There was something you were talking about before around dopamine and addiction, which I know is definitely up your ali.

So is there such a thing called a porn addiction?

Is that a clinical definition?

So people can absolutely become addicted to pornography.

It's not yet technically kind of recognized in our diagnostic manuals as a standalone diagnosis, okay, but between sort of clinicians and researchers, we have an understanding that yes, this is a thing that certainly does exist.

So if I actually just break down what an addiction is, because there are key features of addictions that go across all sorts of addictions, whether it's alcohol, whether it's porn, whether it's gambling, there are some key features and I'll refer to the component's model of addiction by Professor Mark Griffiths.

So what we see with any kind of addiction is that there's a salience and a preoccupation with the addictive behavior.

So in the context of pornography, a person will find that they're thinking about consuming porn very often.

It's on their mind a lot.

They might be at work and it's popping into their mind.

There's this kind of mental preoccupation with it.

We also see mood modification.

So when I engage with the addictive behavior like pornography, I feel different in some way.

I use it in a way that helps me regulate myself.

Either it makes me feel excited, either it's a form of escape, it makes me feel calmer, whatever it might be.

There's mood modification, yeah, okay.

We also find that people build a tolerance with an addiction.

So maybe, as I was saying with porn before, I could sort of watch certain types of porn, but now I feel like I need to watch more intense porn or greater amounts of porn.

Or maybe I transition from watching porn to interacting with sex workers online.

Right, so I'm now kind of on live chat's talk to people.

So there's this kind of tolerance that builds that makes me need or want more of it.

We also see withdrawals, So if someone tries to stop doing something like watching porn when they have had some sort of addiction to it, they will experience these withdrawal symptoms.

And withdrawals are not just relating to drugs and alcohol chemically, but our body goes through a similar sort of process where we stop something, we go into this dopamine deficit state and it feels really bad.

So when you say withdrawals, like, what does that actually look like?

Is it that they get a little bit more irritable or I mean, I assume it will be different for other people as well.

Yes, exactly, irritable, uncomfortable.

I feel like I'm getting a lot of urges to engage with something, so I feel like I've got that inner turmoil kind of going on, which is also very much related to the next point around conflict.

An addiction has this characteristic of conflict.

So I have this inner conflict with myself.

There's a part of me that wants to keep watching porn, and there's a part of me that wants to stop because I know that it's harming me in some way, and then finally relapse.

So people often who have an.

Addiction will make some sort of attempt to try and reduce or stop their use completely, but because that is so hard, we often find that people will have lapses and relapses.

Where they go back to it.

So is there a difference between porn addiction and sex addiction.

There is, they are two distinct kind of diagnoses.

Someone who has a sex addiction doesn't necessarily have a porn addiction, and someone who's got a porn addiction won't necessarily have a sex addiction.

But I mean, I work a lot with behavioral addictions in my clinical work, and what I will often see is this kind of blurring in the middle sometimes where people who do have a sex addiction might consume higher amounts of pornography than other people would.

And sometimes people who have a pornography addiction, and when it really becomes quite serious, they potentially start to venture into things like getting erotic massages or not just watching pornography but more engaging with content creators online, webcam chats, et cetera.

Things like that, So they sort of start to blur into that middle ground where they don't necessarily have sex addiction, but they are engaging in additional sexual behaviors.

So I know, you've really unpacked a lot around addiction, just generally when it comes to porn and sex.

But something I am curious about is what's the impact of porn addiction on relationships.

Yeah, that's a good question, and it's a question I actually get asked a lot, right Like, when I see someone in the clinic who has a porn addiction.

A lot of the time, these people may very well be in relationships, and so we have to have these conversations about what the impact is on the relationship, not just the individual person themselves.

What we often see is that there can be a sense of reduced sexual satisfaction in the relationship.

So if someone is consuming great quantities of pornography online, and when I say large quantities, like that could be daily use for like an hour, or it could be literally eight to nine hours a day.

Like there really is a spectrum we're talking about as to how much someone can consume.

But if someone is consuming a lot of pornography, they often then feel like their real life sexual experiences are not quite as exciting or satisfying, and this then becomes a problem in the relationship.

The partner can often feel that as well, right, We often hear partners say that they feel this kind of pressure or expectation to be like, you know what we see porn stars acting like, and the reality is A, that's just not them and B they don't necessarily want to be that either.

So there's a lot of internal pressure that can be placed on the partner, but also this reduced sexual satisfaction the relationship.

That said, it doesn't have.

To be an entirely negative thing, right, Like, pornography can be used in relationships in positive, healthy ways, but the key is that there's got to be good communication around that and consent around that.

Usually we find there are difficulties when one person is consuming a lot more porn than the other person.

And it's really good that you kind of speak to both sides of the equation as well, like looking at the negative impacts, but then also there's potential positive impacts from you know, if it is coming from a place where both people in the relationship know how to move through it, right, absolutely, Yeah, because I mean sexy in generally it is really vulnerable as well, and I can imagine that can also be really hard as the partner being like, oh, this is like, you know, exposing the most vulnerable part of me, and we're not on the same page.

But I mean, that's why it's so amazing that people come to see people like you to move through that together.

Yeah.

And actually, sometimes the pathway into people getting support if they are watching a lot of porn is that they're experiencing some sort of sexual dysfunction or like a rectile dysfunction.

Particularly, we see this more in men than women typically, so men will actually kind of present with some sort of rectile dysfunction and then it's kind of discovered that excessive pornography use might be.

A cause of this.

I'm also really curious to know what else comes up in your client work.

Yeah, so a few things.

So often when someone is struggling with a pornography addiction or let's just say, using pornography too much, even if it's not kind of a clinical addiction, I find that there's often other things in that person's life that they might also be doing excessively.

So, particularly in young men, I'll see this with excessive video games.

Excessive video games and excessive pornography seem to sort of go hand in hand a lot of the time, and when we think about this, it's a bit of an escape, right.

Often addictions of any sort develop as a way of a person coping with something in life.

So there's the coping element, and then you add in conjunction what happens in the brain with dopamine pathways and how rewarding it can be, and those two things combined can just be this mixing pot for an addiction to develop.

For someone who's got the right vulnerabilities, so we find that someone might also have other things that they're struggling with.

And the impact on mental health I think is an important one to mention, because people who are consuming pornography in a way that doesn't feel good for them will often.

Feel a lot of guilt.

They might present with low self esteem, they might present with depression, anxiety about people finding out, like all sorts of kind of secondary problems relating to their mood and their mental health.

It's interesting you talk about just shame generally when it comes to sex and porn because there is a lot of taboo around it, and I mean, I feel like we're in a time where we are starting to talk about it more openly, like hence why we're having this conversation today.

And then there's also other layers on top of that, especially culturally as well, Like I know from my South Asian lens, we don't talk about sex or anything like that with our parents.

Like even to date, you know, I'm a grown adult, I still don't talk about that stuff, you know.

So you know, it's nice that there's spaces that people can come to to be able.

To talk about it.

Yeah, I think it's important to talk about how porn has made a lot of women feel unsafe in intimate environments.

Absolutely, and there's a lot I can say on this.

One of the first things that comes to mind when you say that is I watched this documentary called in the Picture, and this was a documentary where they interviewed a whole range of porn actors, porn producers, directors, etc.

And one of the directors is being interviewed and he literally states, pornography nowadays has become a lot of it has become very rough, right.

It doesn't show consents, It shows roughness, it shows sex strangulation that we'll talk about in a moment.

But what he was saying is that during the direction of these.

Clips, if women are pulling faces that show that they're in pain because they're literally being hurt, they will stop the clips.

They will be like, don't pull that face, No one wants to see that.

Do it again and restart.

So they will literally be directed to not show on their face that they're in pain.

WHOA, So what sort of message does that send to anyone watching that clip?

To a guy, it'll be like, oh, well, she clearly likes it.

And to a woman it might be like, Oh, she likes it, why don't I?

Wow?

So many illusions in that as well.

Wow, yeah, so you said something just before that.

You've got to circle back to around sexual strangulation.

Yes, okay, So choking in pawn has become almost mainstream.

There's something called the Breathless campaign that's been going around over the last year or so, and it's really all about raising awareness as to the negative consequences that can come from choking and sexual strangulation during pawn because it is so often shown in clips.

It's shown without consent, but there's also this misconception that's come about that it's safe, and so the Breathless campaign is all about breaking this myth and actually bringing awareness to the fact that there are a lot of physical dangers that come about with sexual strangulation and we don't necessarily see the risks or the negative outcomes in that moment, right someone thinks, Okay, I wasn't unconscious if I was choked or strangled, so I'm okay, But actually the effects can be shown weeks months later.

Really wow.

So the impacts of the sexual strangulation could be things like headaches, blurry vision, depression, anxiety, or just impairments to our cognitive functioning and our brain.

But also what they find is that there can be serious injury to sort of like our neck ariesophagus, structures of the neck, blood vessels, airways, and these things don't show up immediately, that's the thing, so people can can falsely think that it's safe when it's really not.

Wow.

I mean I didn't even know that until now, So I can imagine AI is bringing like a whole other level of complexity to this.

Right.

Oh, yes, we.

Could have a we could have a whole podcast episode just on AI and porn and sex.

Right, Like, we've obviously seen the rise of deep fakes that have been all through the news and the media and the devastating effect that that has on victims of deep fakes as well.

But I was reading some interesting material that was on the E Safety Commission website and it was saying, of all deep fake material, right, So when we're talking deep fake material, we're talking about AI generated material that kind of looks real but it's not.

Right, of all this deep fake material online.

Pornographic videos make up ninety eight percent of all deep fake material online and ninety nine percent of the imagery is of women and girls.

So this is a very gendered problem that we're facing.

Wow, I don't even know that either.

You're dropping a lot of a lot of staff today, right numbers.

Yeah, So when we think about this, it's it's you know, I just can't help but think, what message is that sending young boys, young men who.

Are watching this.

You know, what sort of message is it's sending about how normalized it might be to use AI porn?

What message is it's sending about consent?

You know, if you're engaging with AI porn, you're not requesting someone's consents, right, So what sort of message does that send people about how consent works in the real world?

I think there are so many problems with it.

So at the end of the day, all things considered, pornography is just an ethical mind field.

After the break, doctor Anastasia is going to explain what a healthy, safe adult sexual relationship looks like with or with that porn.

So how do we actually re examine our relationship to porn and start moving forward towards healthier intimacy.

So for any healthy sexual relationship that we might have, whether or not we're talking about porn or not, we need two key fundamental factors to be at play communication and consent.

And I guess consent is based on communication, right, So we need people to feel like they can have healthy, open, honest conversations with one another about their interests, their desires, their fantasies, their likes, their dislikes.

Their boundaries, their hard nos.

Right.

So if we don't have that foundation of trust and communication and openness, it's going to be very high hard to build a relationship where there is satisfaction when it comes to sex.

We hear a lot about consent, but how do we actually do it?

Like, do you have a bit of a framework that you can give us?

We love your frameworks.

Without a framework, yes, I do.

Funnily enough, this is the FRI's acronym that's going to help with consent.

When I say fries, I mean like hot chip fries, right.

The best kind of fries yea.

So this is actually a framework that was developed by planned parenthood, and it's all about affirmative consent.

So when we're talking about affirmative consent, we mean that a person needs to take steps to say or do something that indicates that they are willingly consenting to being involved in a sexual activity.

So I'll go through what the acronym stands for, because I think it's a really useful way for people to get their head around consent because, as you said, we talk about it a lot, but.

How and what is it?

Yeah?

Okay, So the F in the Fry's acronym stands for freely given.

We need to be freely and willingly giving our consent to participate in sexual activities.

We don't want to be coerced or forced into it.

So it's this idea that just like, it's not just about saying yes, it's about.

Freely feeling like I can give that consent.

The R stands for reversible, So consent is always reversible.

Just because I say yes in this moment to this sexual activity doesn't mean I can't change my mind.

For absolutely no reason at all.

Right, I can change my mind, there doesn't have to be a reason for it, and I can reverse that consent.

So consent is always reversible.

And just because I said yes to doing a sexual act last time doesn't mean I need to say yes to it this time again.

That's such a good one to double down on because I feel like, I mean for women generally and I know for me, even just just when you say yes and then you change it to a note, I can imagine there's a bit of guilt there, and then you force yourself into doing something you actually didn't want to do.

So I like that this is part of the framework.

It's like just because you said it once before, like you have every right to change that.

So that's really empowering and.

That you can just change your mind, right, There doesn't have to need to be a justification or a reason for it.

Yeah, so what about I.

I stands for informed.

So if I'm consenting to anything, I need to know what I'm consenting to.

Otherwise it's not consent.

I need to have some sort of information as to what I'm saying yes to or what I'm agreeing to participate in.

Right, And this is the part where I think sometimes people get a little bit stuck because they're like, well, what am I going to say?

Like?

Am I going to read out a list of all the things I'd like to do with this person?

Then get the how can I be informed?

You know, sex sort of happens naturally in a way and we go through the motions.

So this is really where that kind of proactive checking in with one another is really important.

So is it okay if I do this?

Are you okay if we do this now?

Right?

So it's not like consent happens before the sexual act starts and then it all happens.

It's an active process that we come back to throughout sex.

It's so good that you say that because even though there's a bit of that stop start element, it's so important because what you see in movies you don't see that.

You just see the one sex scene, right, Like, there's no stop in starting.

So, if anything, it's more realistic.

Yes.

Yes, So the E stands for enthusiastic, So consent should be given with genuine desire and excitement and enthusiasm for what someone's about to do.

It's not just the absence of a no, but we want an enthusiastic Yeah, I'm willing to get involved in this, okay.

So that's the And then S is specific.

So consent needs to be clear and specific about the actions that are being agreed to.

And just because I've consented to one thing doesn't mean I've consented to another.

Just because I've consented to penetrative sex doesn't mean I've consented to oral sex, for example, So consent needs to be specific.

So for anyone who feels lost in the conversations around consent, hopefully this is an acronym that can help break it down for you so that if you are getting someone else's consent, or you are wanting to willingly show your consents as well, you can lean back on this framework for advice.

I don't know why now I'm now going to have a visual of fries, but I think about sex sexy fries.

So I also want to add that this FRI's framework applies to pornography.

If consenting adults want to bring pornography into the sexual space between them, then that requires consent as well.

And this is a framework that can be followed for how to have a bit of a conversation and how to gain consent from your sexual partner about using pornography when it comes to sex.

So, if you think that you're addicted to pawn, like for anyone listening in what should they do about that.

There is absolutely help available.

Right My biggest recommendation is whatever guilt, embarrassment, shame you might feel, put it to the side.

Don't let it be the barrier that stops you getting help.

Doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, we've heard most of it.

Right, It's a rare day that someone comes in the clinic and tells me something that's so shocking.

And that's often what people fear.

They fear that they're going to come in and tell me something and I'm going to be.

Like, WHOA, you're doing, what you're watching?

What right?

And it's just not the case.

Like it's our job to be well across and well equipped to deal with these kinds of difficulties.

So seek out a therapist that specializes in addictions, that does a lot of work in addictions, maybe even pornography specifically, and booking that.

First consultation gets some help.

There's help out there.

There's a lot of support groups out there as well, write twelve step type programs, peer led programs from people who have lived experience with pornography addictions as well.

There's definitely help out there.

So put any kind of uncomfortable feelings to the side and.

Start that process.

After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's uncomfortable with the porn habits of the guy that she's dating.

Stay with us.

Bierb Barb bierby I empowering a serious crisis.

BRB having a crisis.

We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.

This dilemma comes from Robin.

So.

I've been seeing someone for a little while now, and things are great, except for one thing I just can't stop thinking about.

I've noticed he watches a lot of porn, and while I know that's common, it kind of makes me uncomfortable.

I worry that what his watching is shaping what he expects from me in real life.

I'm not into rough or performed of sex, and I'm scared I won't be enough for him if I don't match what he's seeing on screen.

Can we still have a healthy, connected sex life if we want such different things?

Or is this a red flag?

Oh, Robin, you are absolutely describing such common things that I often hear in the clinic for partners who have a partner who's watching a lot of porn.

That feeling of like, am I going to be enough?

Am I going to be able to live up to what he's watching on the screen?

Right?

My biggest tip for you is communication.

What I'm hearing is a lot of fear, a lot of worry, a lot of concern.

If this is someone that you're serious about and you can potentially see a future with them, open up those conversations early.

The earlier you can get into this, the better.

Talk to him about how much porn he's watching, what kind of porn he's watching, how it impacts his desire, how it impacts his sex life, or how it has impacted his sex life historically.

Open that conversation up because A that will help you perhaps deal with some of your worries right you might find that some of the answers are not as concerning as what you thought.

They might be.

But B it also gives you a platform to be able to communicate around pornography openly and honestly.

And there's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about someone watching porn and perhaps watching it excessively.

There's nothing wrong with communicating your fears for what that holds for the relationship.

So I think first and foremost communication is really core here.

And if this does come to be a challenge that the two of you feel like you can't quite resolve or get past, this is where couple's therapy comes in.

This is where sort of sex therapy comes into play.

Couple's therapists can absolutely help two people navigate these sorts of differences in a relationship.

Good luck, Robin, You've got this, Anastasia.

Can you reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode absolutely?

First of all, pawn is so easily accessible and it is shaping the minds and perspectives of people old and young.

Second, pornography has the potential to become addictive and highly problematic in someone's life.

Third, a healthy sex life is grounded in open communication and consent.

And lastly, remember the Fry's acronym as a way to discuss consent with others.

If you have a burning question for us, there are a few ways to get in touch with us.

Links are in the show notes.

And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

The executive producer of But Are You Happy?

Is Naima Brown.

Our senior producer is Charlie Black.

Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.

I'm a Shani Dante.

And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the.

Topics we discussed today.

You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue, Lifeline or one eight hundred respect if you're wanting more immediate support.

In next week's episode, Anastasia helps us understand what trauma really means, what PTSD looks like, and share some ways people can get support.

Thank you so much for listening to today's But Are You Happy?

Episode.

We're keen to understand how you're looking after your mental health these days.

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