You're listening to a Muma mea podcast.

Mamma May, I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Feeling a little bit toxic today, So I'm going to ask my husband some questions to see if we're going to start a fight.

If I died, would you remarry?

Is it?

Why are you thinking that long?

If I died, would you remarried?

There should be what rapid fire?

Uh no?

Not no?

You wouldn't die with me?

Oh it?

Thought of me dying?

Wouldn't just kill your off?

You could live without me.

For Mamma Mia.

I'm your host, Ashani Dante.

Welcome to But Are You Happy?

The podcast that's like your brutally honest friend who doesn't sugarcoat anything but still loves you.

And I'm Doctor Anastasia Hernis, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health.

Have you ever had a fight with someone that starts off small but then suddenly turn super personal like you're back in primary school, trading playground insults?

Oh?

Absolutely so?

How do you even come back from that, especially when you're right in the middle of it?

How do you stop things from getting too heated and too personal.

That's exactly what we're unpacking today.

I'm going to share how to have what I call a good fight, one that's free from criticism, defensiveness, and all those traps we fall into when emotions run high.

I already know I'm going to get so much from this episode.

Let's dive in, Okay, Anathasia.

I feel like no one teaches us how to have a healthy fight.

We either avoid conflict or we blow up, or it's a combination of both.

But you know, the reality is conflict is inevitable, especially in the close relationships we have.

I guess the question I would love to start off with is is fighting all that bad?

Before I jump into answering that, I want to say that there are absolutely some.

Non negotiable when it comes to fighting.

Right, So, when it comes to violence, abuse, coercive control, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, physical violence, all of those, they're never okay when it comes to fighting or when it comes to relationships.

But there are some unhealthy patterns that we can identify and work on.

We have this idea that if you have arguments and disagreements in a relationship, that it's doomed or that there's something bad about it.

And we hear about the couples who never fight you and as if they're to be idealized in some way, and I think it's just not reality.

Right.

Conflict is inevitable where in relationships with people who are fundamentally different to us, they have different views and beliefs and values in the world, and that's okay, but it does mean that we're going to come across points of tension and conflict throughout our relationships.

And it's true because I think about, you know, not that I'm going to blame Disney for this, but you know, there's that happy ever after, and I know for me personally, I've definitely been sold that narrative growing up, you know, being like, oh, I shouldn't there shouldn't be any tension because that means we shouldn't be together.

Like my brain used to go straight into the worst case scenario.

Absolutely.

And it's funny you bring up Disney and TV and things, because when we are shown fights on TV or in movies, we're often not shown resolution.

And that's a really important part.

It's everyone's going to fight at certain points in time, but how do we get through that and resolve it.

That's what we need to be able to do effectively.

That's so true.

So what are some of the common destructive things that you observe when people fight?

So I'm going to tell you about the four horsemen as a bit of a framework for unhealthy patterns that can occur when people fight.

And I'm going to refer to couples because this comes from Gotman's therapy.

John and Julie Gotman.

Developed this type of therapy, which is a couple's therapy approach.

So I'm going to be referring mostly to couples, but I do want to say that this applies to any kind of fights with all sorts of you know, relationships, whether that be in a romantic couple, whether it be with a family member, or whether it be with a friend.

So we've got the four horsemen, so four different types of unhealthy destructive patterns.

So the first one we'll talk about is criticism.

Okay, So this is when someone argues in a way that is highly critical of the other person, so they are attacking their character.

So it's not just bringing up a complaint and saying, hey, look I'm not happy about this thing that happened or I'm not happy about this thing that you said.

It's actually attacking and criticizing that person's character.

So it might be referring to them in ways where you're saying you are so selfish how you didn't offer to pick me up from work the other day, or you're so lazy because you just left your dishes on the sink and you didn't, you know, put them in the dishwasher.

So it's actually attacking that person's character in quite negative and mean ways.

Okay, so that's the first negative cammunication behavior.

What's the next one?

Okay, next one is defensiveness.

Now this is probably a relatable one.

We've either been there ourselves or we know people who fall into this style when they argue when they come up against conflict.

So this really is that sense of not wanting to take responsibility.

So it's when we come up with excuses for our behavior or we deflect or we go, yeah, well I didn't put the dishwashers in the dishwasher last night, but you didn't do it last week, and we sort of throw it back to the other person.

And what we find is that when we're met with defensiveness, this is really where an argument can very quickly escalate, right, because the person who's raising their complaint feels unheard and the person who's being defensive kind of throws more fuel on the fire, and things can really escalate quite quickly.

Yeah, when you're talking about defensiveness, I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.

I've never been defensive, if I'm sure you can attest to that, right, Yeah, And it's true, And it's really hard because what I'm hearing as well, there's even we're criticism and defensiveness, there's an undertone of resentment that's piling up underneath as well.

So it can be really hard.

And it's interesting when you're talking about the examples of criticism and defensiveness, you keep referencing you did this, you did that, And I find and if anyone's tuned into our previous episodes, I like the difference between you versus I statement.

You know, there's such a powerful difference in that.

So going from attacking energy to more of oh okay, what's my experience?

So absolutely okay.

So that's defensiveness.

Okay, So the third one is contempt.

Now you use the word resentment before, and that was spot on Because resentment and contempt kind of two sides of the same coin, they're very much related.

I would describe contempt as a nastier version of criticism.

So contempt is where we are attacking the other person, but we're doing it with the sense of moral superiority, right.

It's this sense that I am better than you, I know better than you, and I'm looking down on you.

So it's really quite a nasty fighting tactic and it's really awful to be on the receiving end of as well.

As you're talking about contempt, something that I'm curious about is where does banter come into all of that, because is banter different to contempt because I find often and I feel like it's in the Australian culture, you know, talking about banter, and I've observed it in dynamics in relationships where someone's using banter as a form of connection, but the person on the receiving end it actually stings as well.

So yeah, I don't know, is there a difference there.

There is a difference, but as you say, banter can become contempt, right, So I guess it's all in.

You know, are both people kind of having fun and enjoying this and having a laugh, or is one person feeling really awful at the end of it.

And contempt doesn't even have to just be words, right, Contempt can also be facial expressions.

The eye roll is the biggest kind of predictor and sign of a communication pattern that shows contempt.

So if someone's talking or bringing up a complaint and your partner just sort of rolls their eyes at you, that's a sign of contempt.

Or they're like, oh sighn and and you know, oh, here we go again.

You're always talking about this.

You think you have so many problems you should live You should live a day in my shoes and see what I have to deal with.

It's that sense of I'm better than you, your problems don't matter, and like a crimea river.

The thing about contempt.

Is that the research shows it's actually the most destructive of the unhealthy, unhelpful fighting styles of those four horsemen, and it's the biggest predictor of divorce and relationship breakdown.

Really yeah wow, So.

We really want to catch that one and change it.

Yeah, okay, So what about the fourth one?

Fourth one is what we refer to as stonewalling.

Oh, Okay, So this is where a person essentially shuts down in the fight, and there's a reason for this, right you.

The person who is shutting down is maybe not necessarily trying to be difficult in any way, but they're becoming sort of overwhelmed and flooded.

So this sort of becoming flooded psychologically or emotionally flooded, and they don't feel like they have the ability or the skills to regulate that, so instead they shut down.

And the feeling for the person on the other end of that is they find that person to be very detached, very cold.

It kind of comes across as if they don't care, because that shut down could be like I'm not engaging with this conversation anymore.

I walk off, and then I go about my day normally and naturally, as if nothing has happened.

Now, that's what it looks like.

That's not necessarily what it feels like for the person who is doing the stone walling, but for the person on the receiving end of that, it's like, don't they care, Like we just had this disagreement or I just brought something up with them, and they've shut it down and they've walked off and they've gone about their days if nothing's happened, So it can be really confusing for the person on the receiving end of the stone walling.

Something I am curious about is crying, because you know, crying is gonna happen in conflict.

I'm definitely a crier as well.

They do.

Yeah, I mean, we're all human, right, But I guess something I'm curious about is can crime be ever used as a form of manipulation in conflict?

Look, I think for most people, crying is very natural.

Like I can't cry on demands.

I don't know about you, but I can't.

I can't sort of cry on cue.

Yeah, unless you're a really good actor.

Maybe yes.

So I think for a lot of people, crying is genuine.

But it's not to say that there aren't people who might sort of like lean into the crying and sort of display it in a way that is maybe more hysterical than what their true feelings are.

Maybe someone is sad and they do want to cry, and they have tears that come out, but it's the kind of other expressions that go along with that, you know, am I like laying on the floor in a heap with my head in my hands, sort of crying in a way that's very dramatic.

Now, that might actually be a true representation of how someone feels, and if that's the case, then that is what it is.

But sometimes we do want to be.

Careful about not sort of further exaggerating our emotions.

And if we feel the need to exaggerate our emotions to be heard by our partner, then something is going wrong in the relationship.

It's a sign that we don't feel like our message is getting across.

We don't feel like we've been understood by the person we're trying to communicate with.

With a lot of these communication behaviors can can you change?

Like are they quite fixed?

I mean, is this where couples therapy would come into it?

Yeah?

Absolutely absolutely these patterns can change.

Look, people have their natural temperaments, right, I'm greek, I'm a bit fiery.

Right, I love it.

There's probably no amount.

Of couple's therapy that's going to change the fire and passion inside my blood.

But we can.

Absolutely learn skills and ways to communicate in healthier and more effective ways, ways to kind of notice when the fire is building and be able to sort of regulate that or if we're someone who's stone walls, notice when that's happening and find ways to kind of ease ourselves back into the conversation.

It's really interesting too, because as much as fighting cannot it doesn't feel good when you're fighting, but also it's going to teach us more about ourselves and also the dynamics that are playing out in a relationship.

And something you did talk about in season one about well, we need to be in relationship because how else are we going to learn?

And I feel like that's the same case when it comes to conflict too.

Yeah.

Absolutely, it teaches us a lot about ourselves and the relationship we're in.

So where do our fighting styles come from?

I'm going to answer this with a case example of a particular couple that I've seen.

We'll call them John and Mary.

Okay, and John was a stone waller and Mary lent into the criticism, right, and so we talked about attachment styles in the last season.

It really comes down a lot to attachment style as well as our natural temperament.

But if we lean into attachment styles, Mary she liked to or she started to criticize, and then John would stonewall.

Right.

So John had the avoidant attachment style.

He didn't like closeness, he felt uncomfortable with emotions, he felt uncomfortable with conflict, and so he would shut it down.

Mary had the more anxious attachment style.

So when John would shut down, she would get worried, she'd feel misunderstood, she would feel unheard and show.

She would get louder and louder her criticisms and her commentary would become harsher and meaner and more direct, and so she would escalate and he would go the other way, and so the fights would become really big.

And it really was a difference rooted in different attachment styles between the two of them.

After this shotbreak duck down.

If is going to break down what having a good fight looks like?

Okay, Anastasia, I think this is the moment we've all been waiting for.

How do we have a good fight?

Can you break this down for us?

Yes?

Okay, So for each of the four horsemen, those four unhealthy fighting styles that we can fall into the trap of the good news is there's an antidote for them.

Oh, thank goodness, there's hope.

So I'm going to talk us through the flour and then the opposite of what we should be doing and how we can lean into healthier communication patterns.

Okay, So the first one was criticism.

So this is where we might attack our partner or someone we're in a relationship with, and we do so with insults, and we might use language that's kind of mean and unkind.

So this might sound something like you always leave the dishes on the sink, you never put them in the dish washer.

I'm always having to clean up after you.

Okay, So it's a bit of a criticism and an attack doesn't feel nice to be on the receiving end of.

If you're listening and this sounds like you, then my recommendation for you is a gentle, soft startup.

So, as you were saying before, Ashani, leaning into the eye statements.

So instead of starting.

With you, you do this, you don't do this, you always do this, you never do this, right, we tend to use these blanket statements when we're in that critical style.

Instead of doing that, use eye statements and communicate how you feel.

I feel sad because I feel like a lot of the housework falls on me.

I would really appreciate it if you could put the dishes in the dish washer tonight.

So we're telling the person how we're feeling, we're using eye statements, and we're making a positive.

Request from them.

So we're asking what we would like them to do that would make us feel better as opposed to what we want them to do less of or what they should do less of.

So it's that idea of a positive request, a gentle startup, and a positive reques.

And it's really great you're giving those examples.

First of all, dishwasher.

The dishwasher example is very relatable.

I'm I'm so glad to useta.

But also I find that it's even just noticing the difference between the examples of criticism.

The way you did the gentle startup, just the undertone was so different, like you're going from attacking energy to hey, I want to meet you in this conversation on equal ground.

And that's kind of what I was feeling in that as well.

Yeah, great, good.

Because I also find that it's very easy when you get these tools right, to still be kind of in the criticism because you can just be like I feel that you're very selfish, you know what I mean, Like that tone the undertone as well.

So I think it's one of those things where you kin't have to gather yourself a little bit before entering that conversation.

Because it's vulnerable.

It's vulnerable for both parties.

Absolutely, absolutely, Okay.

So that was for criticism, and then we've got gentle startup, So that was the anecdote for that.

Okay.

So then defensiveness.

Okay, So if you're someone who falls into the trap of defensiveness, you don't like to take responsibility.

You like to bring up a past disagreement so that you can sort of, you know, throw some of the responsibility back on your partner as well.

If this is you, then I hate to break it to you.

But the antidote here is try to take some responsibility.

Okay.

So it doesn't mean you have to take full total responsibility, but it might mean that you say, I can tell why it feels that way for you.

I can see where you're coming from.

I did leave my dishes on the sink and I didn't put them in the dishwasher, right, So I don't have to take responsibility for everything, but I can take responsibility for the fact that, yes, today I did leave my dishes on the sink and didn't put them in the dishwasher.

Yeah.

So if you do fall into the trap of defensiveness, lean into small bites of taking responsibility.

I really like that you're saying small bites of responsibility as well, because I can imagine it being quite triggering when you're in a state of defensiveness, being like, what do you mean I need to take responsibility?

And a reframe that's helped me a lot is around how the word responsibility it's actually our ability to respond, you know, I like that, isn't that great?

I remember momental told me that.

I'm like, wow, that just fully changed my world of the word responsibility.

Yeah.

I like that.

Yeah, it's great.

There you go, listeners, You're welcome.

So then the next one contempt.

If you're someone who falls into this pattern of displaying contempt to your partner or to those around you, then my recommendation for you is.

Build a culture of appreciation.

Okay, so when you feel like you're really irritated with your partner or you want to sort of put them down or they're frustrating you, instead of making those mean comments, think about the positive qualities that you like about your partner.

Think about the reason you started a relationship with them in the first place, think about the things they do in your relationship that you're really grateful for.

Into that culture of appreciation for the relationship you have and for your partner, and this will help you respond in a way that feels calmer and kinder.

And I can imagine in that appreciation piece it kind of gives you perspective on everything as well, because it's so easy to kind of go into tunnel vision when you're focusing on an issue.

So I can imagine it just kind of allowing you to take a step back, be like, Okay, let's just let's just look at everything for a moment.

Exactly, not just this one thing that right now I'm annoyed about, but actually, what's all the good in the relationship as well?

I love that?

So what's the antidote for stonewalling?

So stonewalling, so this is.

Where we shut down, we detach, we walk away from our partner, We go I'm not having this conversation with you.

We're done talking about it, and then they leave and go about their day.

Okay.

So, if you're someone who falls into the trap of stonewalling, this usually happens because you feel overwhelmed or flooded by emotions or psychologically, you just feel flooded.

In that moment.

So what we want to help someone do is self soothe, right, Calm the nervous system, Regulate the nervous system.

If you feel overwhelmed, take the pause, take the time away, Tell your partner I'm going to step away for ten minutes, twenty minutes, but then I'm going to come back to this conversation and use those ten or twenty minutes to regulate yourself.

We've talked about self soothing before, but thinking about those sensory strategies that you can lean into to calm yourself down and bring yourself to a point where you can talk about feelings, because at the core of a lot of disagreements and arguments are feelings really, So you know, have a cup of tea, have some quiet time, put on some gentle music, regulate yourself in a way that feels right for you so that you can come back and have a healthy conversation with your partner.

Okay, so what's the goal here?

I guess the goal is we want healthier relationships, right, and one of the ways we can think about that is through a ratio of positive to negative interactions that we have with our partner.

So in our general relationship, we want the ratio to be at least twenty to one, twenty positive interactions to one negative interaction with them.

This is just day to day out of conflict, when we're going about life, right, twenty to one ratio.

When we're in conflict, we want a minimum five to one ratio, So this is five positive interactions to one negative.

Now, if you actually think about that in the context of conflict.

That's not always easy to do.

When we're in.

The depths of contempt or stonewalling, or criticism or defensiveness, it's really easy to lead into those negative sort of actions or comments we might make.

But if we think about what positive interactions in conflict might look like, it's anything that connects us with our partner, right, we really want it to be us versus the problem, not you against me.

So if my partner's telling me something that's concerning them, it might be as simple as me nodding my head.

That's one.

It might be just like you did hmm, okay, so it's shit.

It's showing the sign that I'm listening, that I'm attending, that I'm I'm taking in what you're saying, I'm making eye contact with you right.

All these nonverbal cues are positive interactions that we can have during conflict, and so we want to be aiming for that ratio of at least five to one for healthy fights.

So if we can really tune into these elements, then what we'll find is that our fighting will become healthier and more meaningful for the relationship.

After this shortbreak, we hear from a listener who was frustrated that their parent can't handle confrontation at all.

Stay with us, baby, hearb.

Hearby I'm having a serious christis VRB having a crisis.

We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you.

This dilemma comes from Jake.

My dad and I aren't really seeing eida eye right now, and it's been tough.

Most of my family knows what's going on, and honestly, a lot of them are on my side.

I want to talk to my dad because this conflict clearly needs to be worked through, and I'm ready to listen and try and find some kind of resolution.

But the problem is he's been avoiding me.

He won't answer my calls or texts.

It's frustrating because how am I supposed to fix things with someone who just doesn't want to even talk about it.

I don't want to give up on this, but it feels like I'm stuck with no way forward when he won't engage.

How do I solve conflict with someone who isn't willing to come to the table.

That's so hard, Jake, That's a tough situation.

Absolutely.

It is really hard when you're the one putting in the effort trying to have a conversation, trying to resolve things, and the other person is just kind of not meeting you where you're at.

My recommendation for you would be Dad's obviously not at a point where he's willing to or able to resolve the conflict and have those conversations that need to be had.

So instead of trying trying to solve the problem rebuild the relationship, I would say you could reach out with some sort of message or call that says, look, I know we've got this disagreement going on between the two of us that we haven't been able to resolve, but I really value our relationship.

I value you as a dad, I love you, and I want to have the connection and the relationship with you.

So can we temporarily put that to the side and keep connecting right And it's through the foundation of connection that you're going to eventually be able to resolve whatever the conflict is.

Connection, emotional connection with someone is such a great tool to platform from to be able to have hard conversations.

And what feels like is missing right now for the two of you is just that pure bond that you can really lean into to be able to have then harder conversations.

Laiter down the track.

Good luck, Jake, Anastasia.

I feel like this episode has helped get us to really think about why we fight and how to do it in an effective way with good intentions.

Can you reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode.

First of all, there are four unhealthy ways of fighting criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling.

Second, if you want to fight fair, consider the opposites and antidotes to these unhealthy patterns.

Third, make sure you have more positive to negative interactions during fights as well as during your relationship.

And last, attack the problem not each other work together as a team to solve the issue.

If you have a burning question for us, there are a few ways to get in touch.

Links are in the show notes.

And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

The executive producer of But Are You Happy?

Is Naima Brown.

Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman.

Sounders and editing by Jacob Brown.

I'm a Shani Dante and.

I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus.

The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today.

You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.

Tune in next week as we unpack parentification and how to recover when your parents have made you the mediator between them or put you in charge of holding onto their emotional baggage.

Mamma MIAs studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Benton.

Visit Fenton Andfenton dot com dot au.

Thanks for listening and see you next time.