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I'm your host, Ashani Dante.

Welcome to But Are You Happy?

The show for people who say no worries far clearly deeply worried.

And I'm doctor Anastaga Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health.

Have you ever wondered why friendship breakups feel so brutal?

Yeah, I've definitely had my fair share of friendship breakups and breakdowns?

Why does it feel worse than breaking up with a romantic partner?

That's what we're going to talk about today.

How to end a friendship without ghosting someone and leaving them wondering what just happened?

Get into it, okay, Anathasia.

I want to start off with the big scary question that so many of us are thinking but are too scared to actually talk about out loud.

How do we know when it's time to end a friendship?

Can you give us some of the signs to look out for.

Yeah, friendship is a big one that I think doesn't get talked about enough.

So I'm so glad we're having this conversation.

So, yeah, let's talk about signs of unhealthy friendships.

Right, when we think about a friendship, we want it to be happy, fun, respectful, emotional.

We want to feel like we have a strong sense of connection with someone.

So I guess when we're looking for signs of an unhealthy friendship, we might be looking at signs of, you know, someone who's not kind of reciprocating the friendship.

Right, Friendship's got to be two ways, not just a one way straight so we need that reciprocity.

We need to feel like we can trust that person.

If our friend is not someone we feel like we can trust, then are they really our friend.

We don't want to have any ox ssessive signs of jealousy any one person trying to control the dynamic.

It's got to really be kind of fair and respectful to both people.

And I can imagine with these signs as well, like, would you be looking at for these signs consistently?

Because I understand, you know, at the end of the day.

We're all human and sometimes we're going through a bad day.

We can project our stuff onto someone else, Like, can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Is it a consistent thing that we're looking out for.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there with the idea of patterns, right, Like, it's never going to be one hundred percents equal all of the time, Right There's going to be times where one person has less capacity than the other.

One friend steps up and fills the space while the other person is maybe like a little bit down or unable to kind of contribute as much.

That's fine as long as we don't find ourselves in a pattern where one person is always unavailable or always wants things to be exactly on their terms, or we always have to go to the sushi place that the friend wants to go to instead of it kind of being a fair share of who get to pick where we go for dinner.

Yeah.

And it's really interesting because as you're unpacking some of these signs, something else that I think about could be another potential sign would be a misalignment in values, right, Like, I know, for me, I've had to step away from friendships where I've been deeply hurt and that friend knew the impact that they had on me, but didn't make the effort to repair.

And that was a misalignment in values for me because love and respect's really important, but in that particular situation, they weren't demonstrating that and that was really hard.

But I did have to question the friendship.

Yeah, that's such a good point, the values misalignment, right, And I think values is a big one.

We've talked about values before on the podcast.

But you know, we can have different values where like I value adventure and New value creativity, so we might have kind of different interest in hobbies, right, But when it comes down to those really core values around respect and honesty and forgiveness and repair, you know, if we differ on some of those really core values with our friends, then we might find it hard to maintain a friendship with them.

As you've said, so, what are some of.

The common red flags to look out for when it comes to an unhealthy relationship?

So I would say signs of an unhealthy friendship are things like when someone's disrespecting your boundaries and doing so constantly.

Maybe they're not willing to sort of respect, your emotional limits or limits on your time and your availability.

Maybe if someone's constantly negative, right, really being negative and pulling the friendship down, a lot of criticisms.

They're very critical of you and harsh towards you.

They don't give the support when you feel like you need it.

There's a lot of conflict in the friendship, maybe some betrayal, maybe gossip, jealousy, dishonesty, and then of course the imbalance of effort.

If you feel like you're the person who is always putting in the effort and it's not a two way street, that's probably a sign that there's something unhealthy going on in the friendship.

Why do ending a friendship feel just as hard as a romantic breakup?

Often we've had these friends through the ups and downs of our lives.

Right, We've gone through romantic breakups and they've been the person there who shoulder we cry on.

Or we've gone through illness or death of a parent, or a change in career or trying to figure out our identity.

You know, these different kind of life stages we go through.

Those friends are there with us and they've seen the changes in who we are, how we show up in the world, our personality, our interests, our choices.

They've been there through the highs, they've been there through the lows, and so it's you lose a lot when you lose a friend, because it's sad to grieve the history that that friendship comes with.

I feel like you just worded it so beautifully because I feel like what I'm hearing is there was a lot of emotional intimacy.

You know, they've been there through the ups and the downs, and it is kind of that breaking away of the possibility of the memories and the joy love that you experience.

It's breaking away from that as well, and that's scary.

We don't like change, right.

We don't like change, and when there's a lot of history behind us with friends, we do feel a desire to hold on to that.

Whether it's the right or wrong thing for us, there is a desire to hold on to that history.

I know for me, a lot of my friends have been from my schooling years right and we've been with each other through those life transitions of going to UNI and figuring out what to do in the world and in our careers, and some of us have got married and had babies and done all sorts of things, and you live life with that person by your side in some way, and so it's a big part of our life friends.

But I guess the other question I have is what if it's not a breakup at all, and actually it's a re establishment of boundaries, like redefining the friendship.

I think this is a good point because people can sometimes be quick to jump to cutting the friendship, off ending the friendship, right like, oh, we have this misalignment of values, or you know, this person's not putting in as much effort as I am, and so this isn't the right friendship for me anymore, and I'm going to end it.

Well, maybe we don't need to end it, but as you say, it's just this kind of redefining what the friendship looks like.

We all have friends that I want to say, serve different purposes in our lives.

Right, no one person is going to be well maybe they are, but no one person should feel the pressure to be the ultimate friend and ultimate person.

I guess what I mean by that is that we have some friends that might be the fun friends.

They are the people we go out with on the weekend, we have a nice time with them, We enjoy ourselves with them, but they're maybe not the person we call up when we've just had heartbreak in our lives and we want to cry on the phone to them.

We might have friends who share similar interests and hobbies to us, you know, the friends that we go hiking with, or the friends that are in the run club or something.

We might have friends who are the work friends, right, we share common space day to day, we share commonality because we work together and we bond over that, but perhaps we don't necessarily take that outside of work.

And then we have the friends who are the emotionally close friends, the people we feel very emotionally intimate with, and they serve a particular role and function in our lives.

So it's important to kind of think about where different people fit in our lives and making sure for ourselves that we see them in that role and we're not kind of expecting them to necessarily be more than that.

Different people serve different purposes in terms of friendships for us.

I really like that because I think so often, you know, there's that concept when we were growing up in high school where there's the whole concept of fiffles.

You know, we had those like best friends for life, and we had the best friend bracelets and you had the best friend necklaces.

And in a way, I feel like it was this false narrative where it was like, oh, I need to do everything, share everything with my best friend, and I feel like there is some version of adult team when we realize, actually, you know, that person's for this purpose and this person's for that purpose.

Like it's not a bad thing to sometimes compartmentalize, right.

Maybe the best friend sounds like a lot of pressure right now, I have at it right, like you're the best friends, like you support that person and everything in their life, and that feels like a lot of pressure as opposed to like, you know, I feel this part of this person's life, but maybe I don't do all things with them.

Yeah, that's so true.

And I feel like I've come from a different lens because I used to work with my best friends as well, and that was a really interesting dynamic to move through and knowing Okay, what's personal what's professional, and it was really challenging as well.

I think also coming back to what you were talking about around setting new boundaries, I think that that could be hard but also really necessary because I know for me, I've definitely had situations where I did set a boundary with certain friends in my life because I had a lot going on emotionally and I couldn't hold the conversation about that relationship in that time.

So I did set a bit of a boundary, like, hey, I'm just taking a bit of a break, and they respected it as well.

But that was a moment for me to not just always say yes because I'm such a yes person.

And you know, we've definitely talked about people pleasing in season one.

We'll head back to those episodes.

So it was a moment for me to step into my power and own what was going to be in alignment with my own values in that moment.

Yeah, and the idea that it doesn't have to be a breakup, it can be a break Yeah.

Yeah, let's talk about guilt because kind of extending on people pleasing and how you know, these people have been such core parts of our lives.

So often we can feel like the bad person or the villain when it's time for us to step away from a friendship.

Why is it so hard for us to change a dynamic with a friend.

It's hard because you know, if we feel guilt, and if we feel bad about it, we probably still care for this person and still value the relationship that we've had.

The right just because the friendship or the relationship right now doesn't feel good or it feels like we need a break from it or we want to step away from it completely, doesn't mean it hasn't been great in the past.

Right.

Just like any relationship, even romantic relationships, they might reach a point where they're no longer healthy for us, but there may certainly be times in the past where there have been wonderful experiences with great shared memories and great emotional intimacy, and that can feel really sad and hard to step away from, even if it's the best thing for us.

It's really interesting because as we're talking more about this conversation, it gets me thinking about mel Robin's book The Lethem Theory.

I have read it, and there's something that she talks about around this concept of the great scattering and how it's about how friends naturally can change in different transitions in life, and how it is such a normal part of life where you know, you go from you move into state, your friends naturally change.

And I remember when I read that for the first time, I had this moment of relief because I kept thinking there was something wrong with me, being like, oh, I should keep these people in my life because you spoke to how you've been friends with people from school, Like, I actually don't have any friends from school that I'm still connected with, and there's no bad blood there, Like, I think they're all really beautiful people, but I think it was a natural flow of life and noticing when I moved into State that just changed.

And it's just nice to know that it's okay.

It's the permission piece, right, giving ourselves permission to change as people, and that means our relationships will naturally change, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

It's not that we're no longer friends with this person because they've done something that's so hurtful to us that we can't possibly forgive them.

It's just that life changes and priorities change, and I think there's actually something so beautiful about a friendship when you can have that time that's passed where maybe you haven't spoken to each other or seen one another, but you can kind of call that for what it is and be like, hey, I've got a great friend from school that I don't see very often, but when we do connect, it's like, Hey, we haven't spoken for almost a year, but I love you as a friend.

You're a wonderful person.

Like, let's make some time to reconnect in some way, whether it's a phone call or in person catch up.

And I think there's something so lovely about being able to own the space and the distance.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that I care about you any less or I value you any less.

It's just that life has happened.

So true, And I think it's one of those things where at the end of the day, we can't control other people's reactions, and especially with a best friend or a friend that you've done a lot of life with, you know how they're going to respond usually, so I can imagine that hesitation of even wanting to lean into the conversation because you're already playing out all the potential scenarios like, oh, they're going to think this, they're going to think this, they're going to share it with all of our collective friends, and you just create all these you know, you end up spiraling before even having the conversation.

Yes, but absolutely yeah, And I think what I'm hearing is that it's okay to feel those things and you know, take that next step.

Whatever.

That is absolutely so some.

Of you I do want to talk about because it kind of ties back to the title of this whole episode around how to end friendships without ghosting.

I can imagine it's potentially not a clinical term, so we'd we'd love to hear what is ghosting?

Is it all that bad?

Yes, ghosting?

Well, you're right, it's not a clinical term.

I looked up online to try and find the official definition of ghosting, if there is one, so I'll say, according to the Oxford Learner's Dictionary, okay, we're gone there, ghosting is the practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly stopping all communication without explanation.

So I think the key parts about this is it's sudden, right, it feels like it comes out of the blue.

It's not expected, it's sudden, and it it happens without any explanation.

So the person on the other end is left feeling often very confused and potentially overwhelmed by what's happened.

So with ghosting, is it all that bad?

That's a good question.

Look, if it is someone that you have a close personal relationship with, if you have a friendship with them, if you're dating them, et cetera.

My advice would be not to ghost.

Yeah, I think out of kind of respect for how we would like to be treated, Let's treat others that way.

And if we would be in a situation where we would find it really unpleasant or uncomfortable or a bit disheartening to be ghosted by someone, then let's not inflict that same sort of behavior or treatment on someone else.

That's very different to friendships or relationships that kind of naturally drift, right, the sort of natural drift where things just you know, neither person is kind of putting the effort in and so they sort of drift apart.

But that's different because it's not sudden, and one person is not left on the other end going what on earth has happened?

Because that's a really unsettling feeling.

Something I am curious about when it comes to ghosting is could it be also a capacity thing?

I know I spoke before about an example of me not having the capacity to have a conversation.

What happens if you don't have the capacity to lean into that conversation and slash or the person on the receiving end can't it doesn't have the capacity to receive it.

So what do you do on that end?

Because if there isn't a space, a mutual space of being open and willing to lean into the conversation, is there a point to actually even have a conversation.

Yeah, I say own it.

If capacity is the issue, If you don't feel like in this moment you can show up and have the conversation, or you don't feel like you can explain to someone you know why it is you want to step away from the friendship or the relationship, then I say own the capacity, because that at least gives the person some understanding as to what's happening.

There's nothing wrong with being able to say to someone like I'm not able to continue in this friendship or this relationship at this point in time.

Right.

That doesn't have to mean forever, It just means right now, I'm just feeling like I don't have the capacity to be able to kind of talk through this right now.

But perhaps later we can come back to it.

I hope you can understand, right just being transparent, honest, I think people really value or I really value when people are honest and transparent about how they're feeling and they share the hard stuff.

Right.

It's not easy to do.

It's not easy for any of us to do, but we can have respect for someone that.

Does it, and I can also hear in that it's also a really good character buility moment.

Right when we're leaning into a bit of you know, we're stepping out of our comfort zone, we're leaning into the eakiness of how this is going to end up.

And it is a good life skill to learn.

Whether it's friendships, whether it's you know, conflict in the workplace, it's inevitable.

So I really like that you're a pro clear community.

Clear communication.

Absolutely, And you know what, if we don't communicate clearly and the other person on the other end is feeling confused and doesn't know what's happening, often people will resort to blaming themselves, and that's what we don't want.

If we get ghosted, often we'll sit there, we'll ruminate over what's happened.

We'll go over the scenarios.

We'll overthink did I say something, did I do something?

Was at that time I called them on the phone and they were really busy but I kept talking anyway, you know, we'll try and pinpoint the thing that we did that made someone ghost us, and we want to avoid someone going through that process if it really isn't a them thing.

So if you're the one that's been ghosted, what should you do?

I think you can go multiple ways here, right, Like, I think there are some people who would be on the receiving end of being ghosted in a friendship and feel really hurt by that, but not want to take the step forward to try and open up communication.

And I respect that, right, It's not for everyone, and it can sometimes feel more hurtful to try and like reach out to that person and not potentially get a response.

The other option is to maybe send a message, you know, a text, whatever it might be that just sort of recognizes what's happened.

So, you know, Hey, I haven't heard from you in a while.

I've tried to contact you, I haven't heard back from you.

I do hope things are okay.

Let me know when you're ready to chat.

You know, I often think about what's the decision for me personally that I'm going to feel best with at the end of the day, because the end of the day I have to live with myself and my decisions and my choices, and what I might decide to do might be different to what someone else does.

But if you can get to the end of the day and go okay, you know what, Like I'm satisfied and I'm glad I made that decision, even if they choose not to respond, then I feel like I've done okay.

After the shopbreak, doctor an Atasia is going to teach us how to navigate the tough conversation when you think you need to end a friendship.

Stay with us.

Okay, Anastasia, We've now covered a lot of the signs to look out for when you're considering having a friendship breakup.

But how how do we have the breakup conversation?

Can you give us a bit of a roadmap around how to navigate this with love and respect?

Yes?

Absolutely, this is a framework.

I'm going to call it the care framework, a nice acronym.

That's great, we love a good acronym.

The care framework for a friend breakup.

But I want to also say this, you can use this framework for redefining readjusting boundaries, you know, kind of talking to someone about how you might like some tweaks in the friendship right, So it doesn't just have to be for the breakup.

It can be for how to have a conversation with a friend that might be hard.

Right, So let's go through it.

C are So C stands for choose the right time and place.

So before we get into what we're going to say, let's get the setting right.

Are you guys going to have a FaceTime call.

Are you going to have a chat over the phone, You're going to sit at a cafe, You're going to sit in a park in a quiet spot, You're going to go to someone's place.

Right, what does the setting actually look like.

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here, but think carefully about having the setting right, because if the setting is wrong, if you're in like a really noisy, busy cafe and you're trying to tell someone, look, I think we need to redefine our friendship.

It's not going to be, you know, the easiest place to have a potentially hard conversation, right.

So that's the sea choosing the right time and place.

Next one is a acknowledge the friendship and your feelings.

This is the part I really like, particularly when the redefining of the friendship or the breakup can be very bittersweet, right when you have a lot of care for that person but the friendship is just no longer working for you.

Acknowledge the friendship, Acknowledge the history, Acknowledge the good qualities of that person.

Acknowledge what you've really valued about the friendship.

Right, so we want to really lean into acknowledging those things and acknowledge how you feel.

Acknowledge that this might be a really hard conversation for you to have.

Acknowledge that you might be feeling a bit of guilt.

Acknowledge that you might be feeling a bit sad.

Acknowledge that you might also be feeling a bit relieved to have this conversation.

Right.

So, the A is all about acknowledging the friendship and acknowledging our feelings.

And I really love that because in a way, you're framing up the vulnerability piece, which is what fosters more of that connection and that safety exactly exactly.

You're modeling that openness and that transparency and the vulnerability.

Okay, so choose the right time and place.

Acknowledge the friendship R is about relaying your reasons okay, So you want to share your reasons with the person as to why you'd like the friendship to change, or why you'd like to take a break from the friendship.

Whatever those reasons might be, try and reflect them and state them using eye statements.

So I've noticed this or I'm feeling this, right, So providing the person with your reasons and then e is ending with empathy.

Now, some people might say, if the friendship has been a really horrible one and I don't want to end with empathy, I don't have to.

That's okay.

But again, if it's that bittersweet ending, or you do want to have the friendship with them, but you want to sort of change the dynamic, provide the empathy, lean into the difficult emotions, you know, talk about how this might be hard for that person to hear, or it might be upsetting, or it might be unwanted.

So end with empathy.

What I love about this framework is that it leans into emotion and as you said, vulnerability, right, and that can be a really honest and kind way to have hard conversations with someone.

I really love this framework.

It's so good.

One other question I do have, because you have mentioned how it can be really scary to lean into these conversations.

And now we've got this framing of the care framework, would you be able to step out a potential script because I know you did this last season, particularly with the Dear method back in what was that episode six?

I think it was episode six.

Go check it out.

But I just feel like it's really helpful to have that.

Yes, Okay, all right, So let's use an example.

Let's say that I need to have a break from my friends Lucy.

You can pretend I'm Lucy too.

You can pretend you end.

I don't have a friend called Lucy.

So if there's any way Lucy's listen out there, this is.

Not about you, Okay.

So if I need to have a break from Lucy, right, I'm gonna look at you and deliver it to you as shanis if you're Lucy.

So let's say I've asked you, Lucy, to come meet me, know, just at a kind of like we'll grab a cup of coffee and sit in a park somewhere where it's a bit quiet, right, Okay, So I've chosen the time and the place.

Lucy's agreed to that.

So I'm gonna say Lucy.

We've been friends for so long, literally for years and years.

We've had some good memories together.

I remember the time we went on that Europe trip together and we had lots of fun, and we've shared highs and lows in life, and I think you're a really wonderful person with so many great qualities.

So that's my acknowledgment of friendship.

Now I'm going to acknowledge feelings.

I'm noticing that lately I've been feeling like our friendship just isn't what it used to be.

Our friendship just doesn't have the same connection, the same intimacy, the same reciprocity as what it used to Okay, so that's me acknowledging my feelings now that are relay my reasons for wanting to redefine the friendship.

What I'm thinking is that it's worth us having a conversation about perhaps how we view each other in this friendship going forward, and perhaps if we need to change our expectations for one another, because I know we've previously been really close and the way that life has changed, that's just not so possible anymore.

E And with empathy, I care about you, I value you.

I know that you're busy.

I know that life gets hard, So I want us to kind of figure out what we mean to each other as friends going forward, and if maybe we can give each other permission to not have to force this friendship if it doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.

It's beautifully articulated.

How did that feel to be on the receiver end of.

Well, it's really the way you delivered it was with respect, and I could feel it was coming from a really genuine place.

So there's a I mean, I'm speaking, I'm seeing from my perspective, you know, and it might be different for other people, But I did feel there was this mutual love and respect and also respect in the sense of because there's a lot of courage to lean into the conversation because it takes one person to lead it, and there's a bit like there's respect there for you to want to even have the conversation.

Yeah, So does that mean in that way with this framework, because I know when you were talking about it, it's like a monologue in a way.

Would you want people to kind of not stay too stiff with the framework and allow that to be a bit of back and forth because I can imagine, when you're talking about acknowledging feelings, you might want to naturally create space for them to also acknowledge and share feelings.

I know that's really specific, but sometimes I think these conversations do need to be really structured because we don't have the roadmap.

You're giving us the roadmap, Yeah.

I would say, with that care framework, and really it's the AAR that sort of tell you what to say.

I would say, deliver that all at once.

Don't get too into it, right, We don't have to kind of create this big long script.

It can be literally kind of four sentences, five sentences.

I think if you can communicate your whole message to someone so that they can respond to everything you've said, that canst clear communication.

But if we only get like one or two sentences in and then open up for someone to respond, we can easily kind of drift away from our endpoint.

So communicate your whole message and then like invite that person to respond.

Okay, so you've now had the conversation, you hug, you walk away.

What now, because I can imagine there's a possibility of running into each other in similar circles, Right.

What do we do after the friend break or the friend breakup is a very good question.

I think sometimes we don't quite give it enough consideration, but it's very important.

So there's two parts to this.

What do we do when we perhaps see that person in the world, But then what do we also do for ourselves?

Because we're sad, right and it's hard.

So I would say for yourself, have a plan as to how you're going to manage social interactions where you may see that person.

Now, it could be that you just bump into them at a social event, or it could be that you know you're going to see them again because you have this same shared circle of friends.

Have a plan for how you're going to interact with them.

Maybe that's just a smile and nod and a hello, but you're not really going to get into in depth conversations with that person.

Maybe you're happy to continue being friends with that person on social media, but you don't necessarily want to catch up with them for coffee in real life.

Right, have a plan for what the aftermath of the friend break with a friend breakup looks like.

And the reason I suggest that is because it can be really hard and overwhelming when you walk into that social setting.

Without a plan of what to do right to be anxiety provoking.

It's a little bit scary.

But if you have a mental plan, it's going to help you feel more calm and comfortable to approach those situations.

I can definitely relate to that when I did not have a plan for my half to care.

So, how do we look after ourselves because we are clearly walking away very sad.

It's grief, right, A friendship breakdown or break is a form of us losing something.

Even if we choose it right, it's still a loss.

It's still grief.

So we want to look after ourselves in the same way that we would look after ourselves if we have a romantic breakup or if we experience loss of other sorts.

Right, it means taking the time to be compassionate with ourselves, to look after ourselves, to do the self soothing things.

Have the bubble bath, have the cry, reach out to other friends, lean on them for support, do the things that you need to do to look after yourself emotionally in those moments.

I feel like this has been so juicy, and I feel like so many people are going to be bookmarking writing down the care framework after this show break, You're going to hear from a woman who ended a friendship, but things are getting awkward because they're still part of the same friend group.

Bibby hearb Berby.

I'm having a serious Christy the BRB having a crisis.

We've reached the time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you.

Anaesthetia.

Our first dilemma before the season is from Mikayla.

I recently ended a friendship and it basically felt like a breakup because I just didn't feel like it was adding anything positive to my life anymore.

The hard part is we're still in the same friendship group, so I still have to see her at group hangouts, birthdays.

All that.

It's awkward, and we haven't really spoken since.

I've also heard she's been saying some not so great things about me to other people in the group.

There's a group dinner coming up that I really want to go to, which has already said she's going.

Now I'm not sure if I should still go.

I don't want drama, but I also don't want to miss out just because she'll be there.

How do I handle situations like this?

Oh, that's hard, very relatable.

It is hard, And look, there's a few things to this.

First of all, I don't love to hear that this friend has been ex friend has been saying unkind things about our listener.

So I mean, the first thing I'd throw out there is consider whether or not it feels right for you to actually bring this up with her, like is it worth a conversation and to say, hey, I've heard these things going around?

Is this true?

Can you please not say these things about me?

Right?

That will very person to person as to whether people want to do that or not.

But second to that, whether or not to go to this social catch up.

Sometimes when people can't figure out what to do, I suggest that they use the concept of regret to figure out what decision to make.

Which decision will you regret the least?

Will you regret not going to the party, or will you regret going?

You know which one?

Are you going to regret least?

I would encourage our listener to go.

Why should you have to miss out on a social gathering just because you've had this friendship breakdown?

If your other friends going to go, she's going to go, why do you have to miss out?

Right?

Yes, it's going to be a bit awkward.

Yes, it's going to be a bit uncomfortable, but you know what, You'll be able to rip that band aid off and it will set the tone and the scene for future social gatherings where you're able to see one another.

You can maybe nod, say hello, smile.

You don't have to sit right next to each other.

You can sit at opposite ends of the table if you have to, But it sets the scene for being able to be in the same space as one another without being really close friends.

Now, if you're worried about drama, I would say this, you can't change or control what other people are going to do, but you can make a commitment to yourself to show up to this social event.

Hold true within yourself, be strong within yourself, and not get pulled into drama.

Still be respectful of other people, respectful of yourself, respectful of the situation.

You don't need to get pulled into drama, even if other people are creating it.

Can we also go back to this shit talking part, like, how do you even approach that conversation?

If you were going to do that.

With some bravery?

That's my shop.

But I think really again, like I come back to sort of this care framework that's all about the vulnerability.

As we said, right, it's approaching that person.

It might be a text, it might be a phone call, whatever feels right for you, but really sort of acknowledging.

Look, i've heard that you've said these things about me.

We don't know if it's true or not, right, so I don't want to come across as accusatree, but I've heard that you've been seeing these things about me.

If this is true, can you please stop?

I really don't appreciate being talked about in this way.

I would rather our personal friendship and business stay out of other people's lives and just stay between us.

So if there is something you feel like you need to bring up with me, please send me a text, call me, let's discuss it.

But we don't need to talk about it with other people.

What happens if they get quite defensive, because I can imagine when someone shit talking about you, they're very angry, right, So there's a heidened state of emotion.

And again we don't know how they're going to respond to that, because it does take a lot of courage.

Yeah, stay calm, find that anchor within yourself, try not to react.

To their defensiveness and just sort of reiterate, Look, I've just heard this and I just want to share that if this is the case, can you please not do it?

So a little bit of that being that broken record, repeating what you have to say, but doing it with confidence and.

Kindness, And as Michelle Obama would say, when they go low, you go high.

Yes, Anastasia, I'm so happy we had this discussion because friendship breakups are something we all deal with, no matter what stage of life we're in.

Can you reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode.

One hundred percent.

First of all, just because we're friends with someone now doesn't mean we will be friends with them forever, and that's okay.

Second, consider if the friendship breakup is just because you're on different parts in life or because there are deeper, more serious issues in the ship.

Third, consider whether you want to remain friends but just at a distance, or if you no longer want contact with this person at all.

Fourth, use the care framework if you're struggling to find the words to have the conversation.

And last of all, have a plan for how to handle mutual social interactions.

If you have a burning question for us.

There are a few ways to get in touch links or in the show notes.

And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.

Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.

Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.

I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.

Doctor Anastasia Hernus.

The names and stories of people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today.

You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.

Tune in next week as we unpack how to reframe negative body thoughts in the age of weight loss, meds and skinny culture.

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