You're listening to I'm Mom with MIA podcast.

We inherently know how to grieve.

Our minds and our bodies do it for us.

But we live in a society that tells us to hurry up, to get back to normal, to just get through it, and we can't.

The problem isn't our grief.

The problem isn't how we grieve.

The problem is that we live in a culture that's forgotten how sacred grief can be.

Before MoMA Mia, I'm your host a Shandy Dante.

Welcome to But Are You Happy?

The show for people who believe in work life balance but also answer their emails from bed.

And I'm doctor anastagavoronas a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health.

Now today we're exploring grief, the different types of grief, and what healthy versus unhealthy grieving can look like.

Everyone experiences grief at some point, so it's such an important topic to talk about and also build our wayness around.

So let's talk about it.

I'm really excited to talk about grief today because I think often it's an emotion that gets pushed to the side, and I find it such a fascinating and potent motion, and it tells us so much about ourselves.

Because we're usually afraid of grief totally, right, Yeah, in society we don't talk much about grief.

It's not I think we're more able to talk about things like anxiety than we are grief.

To be honest, that is so true, and I think that's what I am excited about diving into shining a light on the topics that we can kind of leave a little bit in the shadows.

So Atasthasia, what is grief?

Can you unpack it for us?

So?

Grief is essentially an emotional response to a loss.

Yeah, if we just sort of put it simply, it's the kind of emotional and effective process that we have.

It's different to kind of bereavement, which we would classify as the actual factual loss, Like if someone is bereeved, how we would describe them as having lost someone, Whereas grief is the internal emotional experience that we have.

That's good to kind of discerbe between those two terms as well.

And I think here at the start is really important to kind of say that when we're talking about grief, we're not just talking about grief in the context of death.

And dying, which is often what people think of when grief is mentioned.

Grief can relate to any loss that we experience in life.

So that could be the loss of a job, the loss of a relationship, you know, the loss of a pet, the loss of a certain status that we might have.

It could be any sort of loss and change that occurs in life that we feel grief in relation to.

I think it's really good that we talk about that because you're right, like, there is that kind of stereotypical type of grief around losing a loved one, and I think it's great that we talk about those transition moments in life and how it is kind of like this shedding of an old identity.

Right, and the dual process that can exist there where if we are talking about life transitions, there can be an excitement and a joy for the new and what's to come in conjunction with a loss and a grief for what we're leaving behind.

That's so true.

Grief can really shine a spotlight on, you know, the things that we value and love most as well.

Absolutely so, I know something you mentioned just before around there can be a bit of a stigma around talking about grief So why is that the case.

Why don't we talk about it as much as like what you were saying before around anxiety.

Yeah, I think there is a general fear of talking about grief.

But I also want to kind of say that I think this is somewhat more of a problem with Western society.

Certain cultures actually really embrace the concept of death and dying.

You know, we see cultures that celebrate Day of the Dead, for example.

You know, certain cultures where it's customary to have the person who has passed away in the home for a period of time, have the body in the home.

For a period of time.

Yeah, and these kind of rituals and traditions around sort of paying respect to those who have passed away.

This is often sort of tied with religion or with culture.

But what we see in sort of more of a Western society is that the dying and the dead I'm just going to use real factual terms here, the dying and the dead are sort of kept somewhat away from our day to day life.

If we think about, you know, societies where people who are dying are sort of kept in the home and cared for at home, versus societies where people are put into nursing homes and kept somewhat separate.

And this is not to sort of shame those those trajectories.

It's just to kind of shine a spotlight on the fact that when we keep these things somewhat separate from our day to day lives, we can develop more of a sort of fear and anxiety about them because they're more foreign to us.

It's interesting you speak about cultures because I think about in the Shri Lannkan culture, there's a thing called danes and that's kind of this it's kind of like a death anniversary.

And I know this is probably more of a Buddhist lens, because that's quite a Buddhism is really culturally ingrained in the Sri Lunkan culture.

So it's usually when there's like monks that come in and everyone wears white, and you know, there's a ritual process that comes together where loved ones come together and really honor and celebrate the life that was.

And I think that's really special because exactly what you were talking about before, it's like there's always a remembering of the people that have passed, and it's something that you know, we should bring more into the Western world.

There's so much we can learn from other cultures.

Absolutely, and as you're saying that, we have something very similar in Greek culture where on the anniversary of the death will we will go to church.

I mean, my background is Greek Orthodox, so we have traditions and sort of processes around how we grieve, you know, we will wear black, and there is definitely an outward expression of grief and being in a state of mourning, you know, like it's it's not uncommon to see people physically visibly very upset and for the kind of collective group to come together and support one another through that morning process.

And we again have a church service at the forty day mark, which is significant in our culture, and then on the year of the anniversary and so on.

That's beautiful.

So I've heard of the five Stages of grief model.

I love it.

Can you tell us more about it?

Yes, I can.

I really love the work around five stages of grief.

So this was originally done by a lady called Elizabeth Koubler Ross, so it's often referred to as the Kubler Ross model of Stages of grief.

And she actually wrote this fundamental text a number of years ago.

About actually people who were dying, so before we get to grief sort of people who are dying.

It's called on Death and Dying, And then she wrote on Grief and Grieving, and she talks about these stages of grief.

But I want to highlight that actually at the start of the book, it's very clearly stated that these stages are not meant to be linear stages that people move through, and they're not meant to be prescriptive but descriptive.

So they're meant to describe people's experiences, provide a bit of a scaffold for them to which they might be able to relate to as they go through this process of grieving.

But it's certainly not a prescribed model where we would expect to move from one stage to the next.

It's much more fluid than that.

I really like that because I think it's true, like I feel, grief in itself is such a messy, non linear approach, so I'd like that that's kind of part of the framework.

Yes, And I think I say that at the start before I go through the stages, because in the way that sort of certain things are packaged and sold these days, we like to sometimes reduce content to its simplest form.

And so I have actually seen the stages of grief model talked about as these sort of steps that you follow, and I just want to bust that myth in case anyone thinks that that's the sort of process they should be following.

It's not meant to be prescriptive.

It's meant to describe a general experience.

M okay, So what are these stages you're speaking about?

Yes, okay.

So the stages are denial.

So this is being in a state of not believing that the person has passed away, just simply refusing to believe it to be true.

Anger, feeling angry that the person is gone, feeling angry at the circumstances around which they left and died, bargaining, So this sense of if I had only done this, then they would still be here, or if this hadn't have happened, then they would still be here.

So this sort of internal tug of war that we feel.

Fourth one is depression and a kind of sadness that can overcome us.

And then the fifth one is acceptance, and this is a state of accepting and acknowledging that the person has passed.

Now I want to be really clear, acceptance is not approval.

Acceptance is not me saying it's okay, or I like it or I agree with it.

Acceptance is simply me saying it is.

Yeah.

That's a really good way to distinguish between the two.

I really have found this model super helpful because for me it was more specifically around grieving my old career and also old friends.

And I remember, I don't know how I got to it.

I must have been in conversation with you, but I was deep in the like I was deep in my grief, and when I found this model and I was looking at it, I was like, oh, I'm in the denial phase.

Oh, that's when I was angry.

And it was just really nice for my mind to kind of have a bit of a concept around what I was going through, because it can be a lot, and especially when you haven't gone through a level of grief before, sometimes a bit more language and awareness really does help.

So absolutely, yeah, it's been super supportive for me.

Those stages of grief.

They don't change the experience for us.

They don't sort of tell us how to solve the feeling of grief, but they provide a bit of a cushion, so that if we are experiencing those emotions, we can relate to the fact that this is a universal, common human experience that people go through.

I'm not alone in this feeling.

I'm not unique in what I'm feeling, and that can provide some comfort for us.

Yeah, totally.

Before we jump on from the stages of grief and talk about other things, I want to actually add that there's been an addition to the five stages of grief, which I don't think is as widely known.

No, I didn't know this.

Yeah, So there's another clinician, David Kesler, who's worked very closely with Elizabeth Koobler Ross, who did the original stages of grief.

So they worked together and David Kesler added this sixth stage of grief to the model.

And the sixth stage is meaning.

Oh, finding meaning in the experience WHOA.

Now, David's really clear in saying it's not about finding meaning in that person's death.

So's not to say that there is meaning in the fact that someone passed from cancer or you know, was in a car accident or anything awful like that.

It's about how we create meaning for ourselves through that experience of grief and that being that sort of final end stage after acceptance.

Because he reflected on the fact and David talks about the fact he actually lost his son when his son was twenty one years old, I think it was so he firsthand has experienced intense grief and reflected on this idea that acceptances that final stage doesn't quite feel like enough to be able to get to a place of Okay, well it is what it is.

So this additional stage of meaning really adds a layer of being able to kind of find and process the experience for ourselves.

So does that mean with meaning?

Does that have anything to do with like gratitude or there was purpose around it?

Like, yeah, I'm trying to understand it.

Yes, in some ways.

So it's not like gratitude in like being grateful for the fact that they're gone.

Yeah, it's about I'm so grateful that I got to spend time with this person.

You know, if someone's parent has passed away, I'm so grateful that I got them as a parent in my life.

I'm so grateful that we shared these memories.

So it can be about gratitude and it can be about sort of finding meaning kind of in the legacy of that person's life as well.

And it's interesting because what I'm hearing too, it kind of gives another perspective to the process of grief as well.

Yeah, and I think grief is a period or stage or part of life that really kind of can bring up some existential questions for people.

It can make them question their own values, morals, spiritual systems that they believe in.

And I think this is where meaning and you know, the meaning of life, big questions we're talking about on the podcast Meaning of Life.

I know, what's the meaning in suffering and what's the meaning in life as really kind of fundamental concepts to consider.

Because I think it's really great that there is this model, and so great to hear this additional stage as well.

But it's me thinking about how there really is so many different ways to process grief, like other models, like this model that relates to it.

Yeah, there's one other key model, and this is kind of referred to as the dual processing model.

And in some ways it's a little bit simpler I think it.

Well, maybe maybe I take that back, but in some ways it's kind of it's got sort of two parts to it, right, So they refer to kind of the loss orientation part and the restoration orientation part, which actually sounds quite wordy as I say it out loud about.

Time, let me break that down a lot of syllables.

Yes, yes, So in the loss orientation phase, the person who is grieving engages in the emotions related to grief in terms of the loss of the person or the thing that they're grieving.

So this is kind of exploring and expressing those different emotions that they experience, whatever they are.

So this is the phase where we're oriented towards the loss, but then there's also a phase where we're oriented towards restoration.

So this is the idea of being more sort of problem focused in our coping.

It's about sort of thinking about any adjustments we might need to make in our life as a result of the loss.

So I guess there's more of a kind of practical problem sort of solving focus in that restoration phase as opposed to the loss orientation phase, which is really about the emotions attached to that grief.

So people can show either one of those kind of ways of processing.

Well, it's more about the moving between those two kind of different phases or stages and again it not being linear, but just sort of the different phases we can be in, which can kind of explain why when someone is grieving, they might have a day or a moment where they're really like deep in the feelings, and then the next day they might be less attached to those feelings but more sort of problem oriented in terms of trying to solve problems or figure out the direction as to where to from here.

That's really helpful to know the two different ways I'm reflecting on my life in the moments I've grieved, I'm like, ah, I was doing that.

So with grief, it's usually an emotion that passes by ride like it takes time to move through it.

But can you ever get stuck in grief?

Hm?

Yes, And this is where I don't want to necessarily say like there's a right or wrong way to believe.

Yeah, but there can be an unhealthy grief experience that some people can develop where they can absolutely, as you said, get stuck in the emotional experience.

And so we actually kind of have a clinical definition for this.

We call it prolonged grief disorder.

It was previously referred to as complicated grief.

But not sure how I feel about that sort of title.

So it's now prolonged grief disorder, and it's this idea that grief is natural and normal.

However, some people can get really stuck in the experience to the point where it is impact in their day to day life.

So some of the signs or symptoms we might look at to diagnose a prolonged grief disorder are things like an identity disruption.

So the person who's grieving almost feeling like a part of themselves has died with the person.

We see this prolonged feeling and sense of disbelief about the death, just like they just cannot process that it's actually happened.

A really strong avoidance of reminders of the person.

This is a really key one.

No photos in the house, no talking about that person, no objects that might trigger memories relating to that person.

A real strong avoidance, which again is a normal and natural part at certain stages to a degree.

But we're talking about when someone experiences this for a long time and in a way where it really becomes dysfunctional in their life.

And also this experience of sort of feeling like their life is meaningless without that person around.

So these are some of the symptoms that we might see for people who are experiencing that prolonged grief disorder, and if that is the case, we as therapists would want to be working with them to help them grieve in a healthier way.

So when you say prolonged, like is there because I know we spoke to around there is no timeline on grief.

You know it's nonlinear.

But is there some criteria where it's like, oh, it has to be over twelve months or is it a little bit of a gray area.

It's a bit gray, but for this we would be looking around the twelvemonth mark.

Yeah, okay.

And again not to say that you know, people can grieve their entire life.

It's about how functional or dysfunctional it is in their life.

Right.

I feel like when we talk about grief naturally, it can be such a heavy and dense topic, right, But I think what I'm really hearing, especially in our conversation, is that it can be It can be a really beautiful perspective too.

It can be a celebration of life or impact that someone has had on you, or a previous chapter that you've gone through in life.

Right.

Yeah, this is where we get to kind of hold two different or competing emotions at the same time.

We can be really sad that someone's no longer around, but hold on to those really positive memories that we've had with them, the gratitude that we have for the fact they've been a part of our life, and share their wisdom with us or shared memories with us.

So it can be really important through the grieving process at certain points to be able to hold both those different feelings.

So let's start with the basics.

How do we actually grieve in a healthy way.

Yeah, so I don't want to prescribe how people should grieve, but there are some things we can do to help us along the way when it comes to grief.

So the first kind of tip I would give when it comes to grief is as hard as it is, allow the feelings to be there, the anger, the resentment, the frustration, the sadness, the desperation, whatever it is, whatever the mess of emotions are, let them be there.

It really helps in order for us to be able to process grief, to process any emotional experience, to be able to feel it fully and to sort of come out the other end of it.

That feeling that intense feeling that you might feel in that moment.

It won't last forever.

It will come, you will feel it like a wave, and it will eventually die down.

The grief may be there forever, but the intensity of the emotions won't.

That's so true.

I really love this and I have all these little catchphrases I do for myself, but one of the things I say is feel it to heal it.

So you know, it might be rant into a friend on a phone, or crying in a shower.

Not speaking from experience, but you know, even having a hot shower, like the water is so cleansing, it does something to me.

You're talking a bit about maybe self soothing is totally right.

So I think self soothing is absolutely a part of giving ourselves comfort through the process of grieving.

Having the warm shower that feels like a warm hug while we're crying, you know, or finding the scentered candles, the smells, the textures that are really sort of comforting and soothing for us in those moments where we're deep in the feelings.

Totally, a couple of other things people can do to help themselves through the grief process is where possible.

And again I'm not prescribing, but where possible, try to maintain routines.

This doesn't mean that you need to get up and go to work every day, because maybe you take some time off work, but getting up, brushing your teeth, having a shower, the basic sort of routines of day to day self care, the fundamentals of self care.

We really want to try and keep those in check because our body, our brain, our emotional nervous system is going through this intense period and so we want to do what we can to physically look after ourselves throughout that process.

So making sure you're eating where you can, making sure you're trying to sleep where you can, having the basic structures of routine still in place where possible.

I really love that because it's essentially stripping things back a bit and really checking in on the capacity that you do have, because it would be different when you're grieving.

Yes, absolutely absolutely.

And in addition, if people can, and maybe if people sort of are a little creative in their own sort of personality and spirit, they can be really creative ways to help with the grieving process.

It might be painting, it might be drawing, it might be journaling, it might be a letter writing to the person who's passed away.

It might be you know, singing, it could be anything.

There are so many different ways that we can lean into creativity to help us process emotions, including grief.

I really love that we can bring that creative element to it as well, because I think I know for me, I've definitely leaned into that when I've been grieving.

I've done written letters and I've like torn it up, or I've used fire.

I love using elements.

So far it's been really good.

I've like thrown flowers in the water like little rituals, which kind of again adds that beautiful element to it and kind of lifts it.

Yes, Yes, love that.

So with these tips that you've provided, essentially you're telling us to lean into the grief.

Right, Yes, as hard as it is where we can, I mean, and there will be times where people don't need to lean into it because it's just there sort of smacking them in the face, right, they don't have a choice, they're grieving.

But yes, And the reason I say that is because when we think about that prolonged grief disorder or the kind of unhealthy ways of grieving, one of the key features we find is the avoidance.

People avoid grieving because fair enough, it's so painful.

Who wants to feel that way?

You know?

Who wants to be reminded of the fact that that person's no longer around, or of the loss that they're experiencing, even if it's not the passing of a loved one, the loss that they've experienced.

So what we see is that people will avoid reminders of the grief of the loss, which can provide some relief in the short term.

If I avoid something, I don't have to deal with it, I don't have to think about it, I don't have to feel it.

But in the long run, it creates this unhealthy pattern for us where those emotions are still in there somewhere, but they're being suppressed, they're not being expressed, and we need to feel the emotions and express them to be able to work through them.

So the key thing I look out for if I'm working with someone who is grieving is whether or not they're leaning more towards the avoidance side or they're able to not avoid.

And if people are avoiding, we will find ways to gradually help them avoid less.

So I will actually sometimes prescribe homework to someone where I say, I want you to go home and find a photo of you and the person that's passed and just spend a couple of minutes looking at it and thinking about them.

Or I want you to play a song that you know that that person likes.

Just play it and have a listen to it.

Or I want you to write in a journal about one memory, key memory that you have.

Or I want you to, you know, take a jumper that they used to have and wear that.

So anything, it could be anything, but something that helps that person break the cycle of avoidance so that they can connect to the loved one that they've lost and the process of the grieving.

So when we think of grief, do we actually need to find closure?

That's a good question.

Yeah, closure can be nice, but closure is not always possible.

Unfortunately, we don't always get closure.

And this is not just in relation to grieving people who've passed, but grieving losses.

If I grieve the loss of a job that maybe I lost, maybe I never really get the closure as to why I lost that job or why that friendship ended.

We don't always get closure in life.

So this idea that we need closure, I think is potentially a problematic one because it means that we might get stuck in a state of seeking that closure and trying to find it, and maybe there is no answer that we will ever be able to find.

So closure is not always possible.

So I think we need to let go of the idea that we need closure when it comes to grief and grieving someone who's passed.

This idea of letting go is a bit outdated.

Yeah, I've often heard people say, you know, you need to let it go, you need to move on right, often said with good intention but not always particularly helpful.

We don't need to let it go.

In actual fact, I think it can be really healthy for people to feel like they are still connected to the person who's passed.

That could be through you know, having a mini die with them in their mind, talking to them, you know, if someone believes in religion and heaven, sort of talking to them as if they're in heaven in some sort of afterlife, writing letters to them, anything that you can do to sort of stay connected to that person can actually be really healthy through the process of grief.

Birb bib Bibi impoving a serious Christians.

BRB having a crisis.

We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you, Anastasia, this one's from Riley.

One of my close friends recently lost someone really important to them, and I can tell they're going through it, but they're also really sensitive, and I don't know how to bring it up without making things worse.

Sometimes they seem totally fine, like they're bacs normal, and other times I can see them kind of shut down or go quiet, but they're not really talking about it, and I don't want to push.

At the same time, I don't want to ignore it and pretend like everything's fine and nothing's happened.

I guess I just feel a bit stuck.

What's the right way to be there for someone who's grieving, especially when they're not showing it in the ways people usually expect.

I don't want to say the wrong thing or make them feel like they have to explain themselves, but I also don't want them to feel alone.

What do I do?

Oh, this one's really hard.

It's so relatable.

Yeah, I feel like it's always really hard to know how to approach someone who's grieving.

Absolutely absolutely, and people can sometimes be fearful of asking questions or talking about it because they don't want to remind their friend or they loved one of the grief that they're experiencing.

So there is a natural tendency to avoid because we don't want to upset someone.

Riley, I would suggest, first up, be patient with their experiences.

From what you're describing, the experience might change day to day.

Some days they may seem fine and like they can just sort of quote unquote get on with life, and other days they might be deep in the emotion.

So be patient with the consistencies as to how your friend might show up at this moment.

I'd say let them set the pace.

Some people in the early stages of grief are much more happy to and willing to talk about their grieving and share their grieving with others.

Other people will take a much slower pace when it comes to being able to share that with someone else.

So let them set the pace as to how fast or slow they want to move with being able to talk about it.

Be present with them.

Often the best thing we can give someone is our attention, our presence, to show them that we're listening and that we care.

By simply being with them, It's not so much what we say.

Avoid the kind of platitudes of these things happen for a reason or time heals everything.

You know.

They're said with good intentions, they're well meaning, but they're often not that helpful.

The best thing we can often do is just be there to listen to someone.

And I would also recommend ask your friend what's gonna work best for them?

Do they want you to be regularly checking in, do they want to sort of talk about this person who's passed away, or would they prefer that you be a friend where they can just sort of distract themselves and talk about other things.

So just ask the best way that you can support them.

Let us know how you go.

Riley, Anastasia, can you reiterate on the main takeaways from today's episode?

I sure can so.

First of all, grief, loss, and pain are hard and inevitable parts of everyone's life.

Secondly, while grief is highly personal and there's no right way to grieve, there are some unhealthy ways.

That we can grieve.

Third, the stages of grief can provide a scaffolding, but not a firm roadmap for navigating grief.

Fourth, leaning into the uncomfortable emotions that grief brings about can help us actually process the grief.

And lastly, you don't need to let.

Go If you have a burning question for us, there are a few ways to get in touch with us, links through in the show notes.

And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

In next week's episode, we're going to be talking about bullying and what to do when you're experiencing it as an adult.

Stay tuned for that episode, dropping next Saturday.

The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Tarlie Blackman.

Executive producer is Naima Brown and Jemma Donna, who is our social producer.

Sound design and editing by Tina Matdealogue.

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at but Are You Happy Pod?

I'm a Shani Dante.

And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus.

The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today.

You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.

If you're wanting additional resources on grief, visit Grief Australia.

Thanks for listening, See you next time.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on