You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hi.

You just got rejected by a company that you're a black for.

But what did you see?

Oh, we regret to inform you that we will not be moving for with your application at this time.

Wait, boss, did did he regret that decision?

We regret to inform you They made a mistake.

Quick call them, tell them that you forgive them.

They just made a mistake.

They actually want you.

Well, Mamma Mia, I'm your host, Ashanie Dante.

Welcome to But are you happy?

The podcast that.

Proves your over analysis does have a purpose.

It's called relatable content.

And now I'm doctor Anastagia Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health.

We've all been rejected at some point, whether it's by a romantic partner, a university, a job, a friendship, a sports team.

The list goes on.

Yeah, and it's especially hard when you're in a season of life where the rejection just keeps eileen up, like when you're applying for jobs and hearing crickets.

Absolutely, it can take a real toll on your self confidence.

So today I'm breaking down why rejection hurts so much and how we can start challenging those negative thoughts that it stirs up.

We all need to hear this episode, so let's get into it.

Let's talk about rejection anaesthesia.

Why does it hurt so damn much?

It hurts?

It hurts all right, hurts so much.

Rejection hurts because we have an evolutionary need to belong, to be part of the social group, to be a part of the pack.

If we think back to the days of the cavemen and prehistoric times, we needed to be part of that social group for the purpose of survival, right We needed the group for protection.

If we weren't a part of the group, that meant we were isolated and we were so much more vulnerable to being attacked by a bear or a lion, or not finding safety and shelter for them, and being exposed to the elements, all these things.

We needed to be part of a group for the purpose of protection.

And so we are hard wired in that way to seek out connection and to want to be liked by other people because it's protective for us.

So when we do experience rejection, that very primal part of the brain gets activated and goes, oh, no, this is dangerous for us, this is bad.

We need to belong.

And it's interesting as you're talking about it, and especially speaking to the evolutionary perspective, it takes me back to where we talked about people pleasing in season one.

And it's interesting how so much of the stuff that we're talking about there's such a common link to everything.

Right, it does come back to evolution and biology and what's going on inside of us.

Absolutely, and I mean that part of the brain has worked really well because it's ensured survival of the species.

Right, if we didn't have that part of the brain that wasn't sensitive to rejection or didn't want to protect us in that way, we probably wouldn't have survived for so many thousands of years.

So we've made it this far.

But we've made it this far because we're really good at wanting to belong.

And it's interesting you talking about the brain because I would love to unpack what's going on for us in the brain when we do get rejected.

I love talking about the brain.

Euroscience one on one here we go.

So let's talk about what happens in the brain when we get rejected.

So there is good evidence and research to suggest that social rejection, so being rejected by people, by partners, by peers, etc.

Social rejection hurts as much as physical pain does.

Really.

Yeah, So if you've ever gone through rejection and you're like, oh, I can feel it, it hurts.

It actually does hurt.

This is so good to language out because it really does hurt.

Like you have I don't know, you've cut open your leg or you know, it does feel like physical pain.

Yes, absolutely, And so what brain scans show is that the same parts of the brain actually light up when we experience physical pain as well as when we experience social rejections.

And I've got a couple of fun and interesting studies to tell you about the proof this.

Okay, so there's the cybable study, right.

So an experimenter designed this game where you sort of play like this online frisbee game with other people, and you're passing the frisbee between yourself and two other people.

All right, So all is going normally, You're taking turns passing it between yourselves, and then all of a sudden, the other two people start just passing it between themselves and they exclude you from the game.

And so they hook you up to sort of brain scans and things, and they show that the same areas of the brain that experience that physical pain also light up when we get that social rejection, because it hurts, even when we're playing a game with people we don't necessarily even know.

To be excluded and rejected hurts.

They've done the same thing with people who've recently experienced breakups from relationships, and they get them to look this is kind of mean, but they get them to look at photos of their ex partner and they scan their brains and again, the same parts of the brain light up that experience the physical pain.

And so specifically we're talking about the parts of the brain that's the dorsal anterior singulate and the anterior insular for anyone who wants to get real deep into the brain neuroscience, right, there's this increased activity to physical pain and that social rejection in these parts of the brain.

Wow, this is so comforting to know this, Like, obviously it sucks because we don't want to be going through that kind of pain, but it also just goes to show how important things like mental health is right, because it's so obvious when we hurt ourselves physically, we go get it treated.

But so often there's so many people suffering in silence mentally.

So it just kind of helps to validate how important, you know, it is to take care about inner self.

Right.

And I think it's interesting when we reflect on the language as well.

Right, So we say things like I'm heartbroken, like we use physical descriptions to describe emotional pain heartbreak, or if we say something was gut wrenching, Right, it's so true we use these physical descriptions to describe what those emotions feel like because they hurt so much.

That's so true.

Like even wounds, because I always talk about like, oh, you know wounds generally, I'm like, oh, yeah, it is emotional wounds.

There you go.

In neuroscience.

It's not like just a poetic term we throw around when we talk about wounds and things like that.

So I guess something I'm curious about too, is what are the differences between you know, let's say, being rejected by someone you care about versus getting rejected by a stranger or an institution.

Often, getting rejected by someone we know personally feels worse, just generally speaking, if we're rejected by someone we don't know, if maybe we're going for a job interview, or you know, someone we've just met, we don't really know them very well.

We can more easily dismiss this and kind of be like, well, they don't really know me, or maybe they didn't get to see my full potential in the interview, or they didn't really ask me that many questions.

We can sometimes more easily justify why we've been rejected in that scenario.

But when it's someone close to us, someone who knows us quite personally and quite intimately, they know our character, it's harder to do that, and so we tend to take it more personally.

Yeah, that's so true.

And I guess that it's interesting because we think about rejection and when we're heartbroken and how long it takes to recover from that.

It's one thing to have like different degrees of rejection, and that's kind of what you spoke to.

But also what I'm interested about is we all experience rejection differently.

I find that some people can bounce back pretty quickly after rejection, and then other people spiral what's going on there?

We all exist on a spectrum of rejection sensitivity.

So some of us are just, you know, in terms of our temperament, less sensitive to rejection than other people.

So there's actually something called rejection sensitivity dysphoria, dysphoria coming from the Greek word meaning meaning hard to bear.

The rejection sensitivity is hard to bear, right, So some people actually experience rejection so intensely and so deeply that it feels completely difficult to bear.

And we actually see this to be quite common amongst people who have ADHD, but also sometimes for people who have a diagnosis of autism, social anxiety, or even sometimes trauma as well.

They have this heightened sensitivity to actual rejection but also perceived rejection.

Okay, so what I mean by the perceived rejection is that someone might get a kind of neutral response from someone in their life, but they perceive that negatively.

So if I was like, hey, is Shanny Like I was watching this really cool documentary last night?

It was really great, and you were like, oh yeah, and then you're just kind of like whatever, which.

Would totally not be my response, like what did you put it?

But for some people they just be like Okay, she's not that interested.

Whatever, onto the next conversation.

Maybe for someone with that rejection sensitivity, they might be like, Oh, why is Shanie not talking to me?

Why she's not interested in what I have to say.

Maybe I've offended her, Maybe I've upset her.

Did I say something that was mean to her?

What was that interaction like yesterday?

You know, I would go over it.

I would ruminate about it in my head, and I would look for the thing that I did that might have made you not like me.

So this rejection sensitivity is not just in relation to actual rejections, but it's perceived rejections as well.

It's really cool to hear you talk about perceived rejections because I haven't heard it in that way before.

I guess in my world, because you know, i'd like to say I'm a pretty self aware person, and it's really great.

But also there's the other side to it where I can overanalyze things, right, So I think it's just nice to know that, Oh, okay, cool, there's choice in how I can show up in that.

But I can imagine that could be harder for some people that just are really spiraling in that perceived rejection too.

Absolutely, and in terms of if I bring it back to the brain in terms of how the brain works.

The more we use a pathway in the brain, the stronger it becomes.

Right, So the more I am attuned to looking for rejection in my life, the more I'm going to find it, because the more I'll see it, or the more I'll interpret situations in that way, and It'll become a very automatic go to lens through which I view social interactions and the world.

Interesting too, because I know, at the beginning of this conversation you talked a lot about from an evolutionary perspective, and it's really fascinating because I know for so many people, including myself, we walk around the world fearing rejection.

Right, So then we start to change the way that we might show up.

We you know, we might actually really like connecting with someone that's new at work, and you're like, oh, I kind of want to be friends with them, but you know, you're a bit nervous because there's that fear of rejection, and you know that shows up in so many places.

But what I'm hearing in this which I feel like we're a bit of a broken record because we kn't of say similar things in a lot of the episodes.

But you know, rejection is inevitable, like it is going to happen.

We don't need to fear it.

But also it's okay too, because that's our humanness right coming through.

Absolutely, it's not a matter of if, but when you will be rejected.

Yeah, yeah, And it's always a really good opportunity to learn more about ourselves, even though it sucks in the moment, but yeah, it always comes back to, Okay, what are my values?

What is it telling me about myself?

So there is beautiful opportunities that can come from it.

And I mean it's not like we're the only ones to be rejected in the world.

Everyone gets rejected, as we've said, and I find it kind of useful to sometimes look towards big celebrities or famous people who share their stories about rejection.

I know the Beatles have a really kind of well known one where they originally auditioned to get signed with Decca Records back in the sixties, and they basically were like, no, we're not signing you.

We don't like your sound and anyway, like guitar groups are going out of style, they're not going to be the future.

And then they go on to get signed by another record label and become massive.

I mean they became the Beatles, right, So it's like they got rejected and look at them now.

Wow.

And it's so interesting because as you're saying that, it makes me think about Mindy Kayling.

Absolutely love that woman, Mindy, if you're listening, I love you.

But I heard that she initially got rejected from a sketch show where she was literally auditioning to play her and she didn't even get the part because apparently they say that she wasn't pretty enough or something like that.

I know, whoever that person was, anyway, I know I was very angry.

But from that rejection, she ended up making her own show called The MINDI Project, which love it amazing.

I love the MINDI Project so but just like it.

It's so nice and validating to know that, oh, yeah, everyone goes through rejection and often it just leads to better outcomes.

Yeah, and it's not like everyone goes through rejection and ends up just being sad and lonely.

People go through rejection and end up having great careers and great lives as well, So a lot of good can come out the other end.

After the break.

Docd Anastasia is going to unpack how we should respond to rejection in a healthy way.

Okay, anthesia, What should we do if we are feeling rejected?

Right now?

Give us the roadmap?

Okay, the roadmap comes in three parts this time.

Okay, first thing, name the pain?

Okay, what is it that I'm feeling and why does this rejection hurt so much?

What do I feel like this rejection says about me?

Is it me thinking I'm not pretty enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not competent enough.

What is that belief that's underlying that pain?

Right?

If you can identify that for yourself, then you can work with that.

Right.

What's the narrative?

What's the story?

What's the message I'm telling myself about what this rejection means to me?

So, if I apply for a job and I don't get it, am I telling myself I wasn't smart enough.

If I'm going on a date with someone and they say they don't want to see me again, am I telling myself I'm not funny enough, or I'm not interesting enough, I'm not pretty enough.

Try and identify what those deeper beliefs are that you hold about yourself that are kind of being triggered up to the surface.

I love that because it's kind of just getting to the root of why we're feeling that way.

Yes.

Yeah, And the reality is these beliefs often get triggered up repeatedly.

If I have this kind of wound around I'm not pretty enough, It's probably going to come up repeatedly through my life in different circumstances and situations.

So being able to identify it for myself can actually be really helpful in a lot of different ways.

And that just goes to show how important it is to sub avoiding what the actual root causes as well, because we just then we end up numbing it or avoiding it, and exactly what you said, we keep going around in circles and circles.

Yes, the avoiding it is only temporary until the next time something triggers.

It back up.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's the first part.

Yeah.

So first part is just being able to name the pain, identify it for ourselves.

What am I feeling and what's the belief The second part, this is where we challenge the pain that's coming with the rejection.

Right, I'm not going to actually sit here and give you a like it's not you, it's them kind of like message.

It might make us all feel warm and fuzzy.

I'm gonna kind of push us a little bit on this.

Right, What I want you to do, if you're listening along and you want to try this, I want you to look at yourself.

What I mean by that is almost like take a bird's eye view of yourself right now?

Where are you?

You sitting on a seat, so you walking down the street, or you in the office.

Where are you?

Look at yourself?

Take the bird's eye view.

Okay, so if you can see yourself, I want you to take it one step further.

Zoom a bit further out and look at everyone in the street.

Right, get that visual in your mind of like the whole street.

We're in the city now, So imagining the whole street full of people buzzing around in their working week.

Right, Zoom out further.

Imagine the whole suburb full of people going about their day doing their thing.

Zoom out further.

Imagine the whole country and all the people who are doing all their things.

Zoom out further, imagine the whole world.

Okay, you are one person in amongst all the stuff that's going on, all the things that are happening.

You are one person in one moment in time in the history of time.

Right.

We are the center of our own world.

Everything feels really personal to us, main character energy.

Right.

The reality is we are a blip in the ocean.

So true, and that one rejection is just a moment in time that will come and it will go.

And I can assure you when it's two months, two years, twenty years down the track, you're probably not going to be thinking back on this moment where you've been rejected.

So my takeaway is get perspective.

Yes it hurts, yes it doesn't feel good, but it's one moment in time.

It's one rejection, it's one interview, it's one date, it's one person.

I really love that that is such.

I mean that visualization was great.

I was gone in places I was like, whoa, I'm seeing the whole.

World and me this little tiny ant.

But it is so true.

Really does help to shift perspectives and realize, oh, okay, yeah, this is gonna be okay.

And I think that also goes to show too.

Sometimes when I don't know, I find when I've got friends and mentors who are older than me, that there is this kind of feeling of wisdom that comes through being like oh just you just you right, oh that little thing that feels like a big thing, but it's I mean, that's part of the process, right, perspective.

Yeah, And I'll say that for me, like the times I've really felt that perspective.

I go out to rural parts of Australia for some of my work and in particular go right to like broken hill and things like that, so I'm like in the middle of nowhere.

Sometimes I'm in the middle of the desert and the bush and when you sit out and it's silence and you've just it's got landscape and just vastness around you, you really just feel like this just just this spec in the world.

And I think that can be really humbling for us, and it can really give us needed perspective away from the busyness of life, away from us constantly trying to like reach the next goal and hustle and and go forward with trying to achieve things.

That's so true.

Okay, So how about the third one third one?

Because I don't want to I don't want to break everyone down and be like you're just this one moment.

You're not that special.

He's just a little blip.

Get some perspective, but its perspective and surround it all off.

Finish off with telling yourself if you think you're proud of yourself for now.

Proud is a word I use, and sometimes people don't like it because they're like, oh, it's not good to be It's not good to have pride, it's not good to be too proud.

But you know, a healthy amount of being proud of ourselves is being able to acknowledge, you know what, I've done a good job or I've been a good person.

I'm proud of who I am.

And so I sometimes get people to reflect at the end of the day on three things they're proud of themselves for, and I say, don't look for the big, life changing things.

Don't be like I'm proud I got that job I was striving for for years.

Find the small moments in the day that you're proud of yourself for.

It's like, oh, you know what, I held the door open for that person as they were going through this morning.

I'm proud of myself for taking the moment to do that and not just rushing through or I'm proud of myself for taking the time to really talk to my friend who was struggling even though I was really busy, and I made that time for them.

I'm proud of myself for that.

Or I'm proud of myself because I had a tough conversation with my boss today and it wasn't easy and I asserted my needs and I'm proud of myself for doing that.

Find the small moments in the day that you can be proud of yourself for because they're actually not that small, they're really significant and they all add up.

It's so great that you kind of end it on that note, like, I know you've got the three parts, because you know, rejection and all of that can really hurt.

But then when we reflect on moments that we're proud of, it's really nice to see your own character as well.

And I think this is what I do a lot with, you know, the work that I've done with teenage girls but also women.

It's also looking at, okay, being proud of what were the character traits that really showed up.

Oh, I'm really proud of the courage that it took to talk to my boss because I know I was freaking out about that, you know, And I think it's just really nice because when we have those moments to reflect, it also just gives us more insight into our values, what's important to us.

I mean, everything always comes back to values, like as you would know from season one.

But I really love that.

And the thing is, those character traits that we reflect on, no one can take those away from us, so true, they're ours, right.

Someone can take away a job, we can have, someone end a relationship, a friendship, we can lose our home, we can lose physical practical things in our life, but no one can take away from us those core character traits.

The courage, the ambition, the hard work, the compassion, all those character traits that we have that we're proud of ourselves for having.

No one can take those from us.

So Shanny, I'm going to throw it to you and put you on the spot, Oh we love it, and get you to get you to share and get you to practice.

What are a couple of things that you're proud of yourself for?

Oh, a couple of things.

Okay, let me get out of my scroll.

Okay, I am proud of my open mindedness.

I feel like we had some issues with the trains yesterday, and I'm not gonna lie.

I was feeling quite frustrated initially, but then just being able to work through that and then seeing what's the lesson and the gift in it, like I eventually got this.

I'm really proud of my open mindedness throughout that process.

Good.

I'm proud of of my.

I guess I'm proud of my courage to lean into new things, like even you know, doing this podcast, you know, like I know this is our second season, and I don't know.

I'm getting a bit emotional, you're priy.

Yeah, well yeah, because I think you know, when you do something new, like there is that initial feeling of, oh am I going to do a good job, like how's this going to land?

And then I don't know, I just really feel like this is something that's really lighting me up, and I'm finding a real sense of purpose in that.

But I feel like it's through my resilience of going through like the initial hardship of oh how do I find my feeding this?

You know, it's a whole skill.

So I'm really proud of myself for that.

Oh, we're proud of you too, Thanks guys.

So to recap.

The takeaway if you're dealing with rejection in this moment is first up, name the pain, name it for yourself.

Second, get some perspective.

This is one rejection in one moment in time, in the whole history of your life, of what's happened and what's to come.

And Third, reflect on the things that you're proud of yourself, for those character traits that you have internally within you that no one can take away from you.

After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's trying to navigate rejecting a romantic partner.

Stay with us Bierb.

Bierb bib so empowering a serious Christians BRB having a crisis.

We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.

This dilemma comes from Sally.

I've been rejected.

Before and it sucked, but now I'm on the other side, and honestly, it's just as hard.

I've been dating someone for a little while and I've realized they're just not right for me.

I tried to end things gently over text, something honest but kind, saying I felt the chapter close, but there's still like the breakup didn't quite land.

I don't want to ghost them, but I also don't want to crush their confidence or make it seem like it's all their fault.

The messages keep flooding in, though.

How do you reject someone with compassion and clarity without dragging it out or causing emotional damage?

Ooh, that's hard.

This is a tough one.

And actually I want to say straight up that this feels like not just an uncomfortable situation, but one of those situations that has the potential to go bad.

Right, So just make sure that you're safe, look after yourself, and just be careful.

What I'm hearing in this is that you haven't necessarily ghosted them or not communicated with them.

You've tried to communicate that thanks but no thanks, you know, like we went on some dates or we're seeing each other, but we're sort of done now.

And I think if you have communicated clearly to someone, then it's okay to stop communication with them.

So you've if you've done the kind, compassionate thing, right, You've tried to tell them, you know, look, thanks, but you know, I'm no longer interested in seeing you or having contact and communication with you.

This will be my last message to you.

I wish you all the best.

You know we can send that message with compassion and kindness as well as firmness, and if someone keeps pushing past that, I believe it's okay to not continue responding and hopefully eventually that person gets the message.

But I do want to say just be careful in that, make sure that you're well supported, because not everyone does respond well to rejection.

And I guess that's what we're seeing here.

This person isn't necessarily taking on board the message that you're giving them.

They're even not reading it, or they're unwilling to kind of accept it.

But that's not your problem at the end of the day.

And Sally, I'll also add that you're not alone in this, like we do see this happen unfortunately when people do enter relationships or they go on dates with people and then they want to end it.

Sometimes people can't take no for an answer very easily, unfortunately, and that means that you end up on the receiving end of a lot of contact and communication.

So if you are feeling like you're struggling with it, do reach out to friends and family for support, get that support in your life.

If it feels necessary, you can take the step to block that person, but do what feels right for you.

Keep yourself safe, and remember as long as you have communicated clearly and compassionately, which sounds like you have, then you don't need to continue the contact.

Good luck, Sally, Anastasia.

Can you give us the main takeaways from today's episode?

Sure can.

First of all, rejection hurts, and I mean really hurts, almost as much as physical pain.

Second, if you're struggling with rejection, name your pain, get some perspective, and then remind yourself of the things that you're proud of yourself for.

Last of all, you are not alone in your rejection.

It happens to all of us and it's just a part of being human.

This is our last episode for this season, and we hope you've got a lot out of the topics we've discussed so far, such as ADHD, trauma, body image, adult anxiety.

The list goes on.

I know for me, I've definitely gotten a lot from all of these episodes.

If there's a topic you want to know more about, scroll back in the feed and see if we've covered it, or if you have a burning question or topic for us, There's a few ways to get in touch with us, links through in the show notes.

And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

The executive producer of But Are You Happy?

Is nam A Brown.

Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman.

Sound design and editing by Tina Matlov.

I'm a Shani Dante.

And I'm doctor Anaesthesia heronus.

The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

If this conversation brought off any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today.

You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.

Thanks for listening and we'll see you again next season.

Want to win a ten dollar e gift card and a Mumma mea subscription free for one month, Give us twenty minutes of your time and fill out a short survey so you can better understand, So we can better understand you our audience, and what content you want from us.

You'll find a link in our show notes