[SPEAKER_01]: This show is brought to you by TheMakery, the podcast network for Makers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are you ready?

[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yep.

[SPEAKER_03]: Guys, guys, we're here.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's another episode of Great Question with Pat Quinn.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Jeff Fader.

[SPEAKER_03]: By the way, this is the full blast podcast and we're here with Pat Quinn, but before we get to it and answer your questions and talk about CMA and all that great stuff, let's take care a little bit of business first thing, so I want to thank my friends at Broadbeck Ironworks.

[SPEAKER_03]: Broadbeck Ironworks and the makers of the 2 by 72 grinder.

[SPEAKER_03]: This thing is sick.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love this grinder and you will too.

[SPEAKER_03]: So go to broadbeckironworks.com Put in the promo code knife, talk 10 and you get 10% off the grinders.

[SPEAKER_03]: You get 10% off all the packages and the attachments.

[SPEAKER_03]: So definitely check it out and many thanks to them.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would thank my friends at even heat, manufacturers of the finest heat treatment available.

[SPEAKER_03]: To find your next oven, go to evenheetdashkillin.com, get that tap control style, stay dry.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you're trying to harden knives, harden hammers, harden tools that need to be hardened, you get yourself a square away, could just oven even eat.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to thank my friends at MaritimeLifeSupply, it's MaritimeLifeSupply.com, Lawrence Lake, is amazing for all your knife making needs, belts, and braces, steel, skills, forges, breast, future, to go up, it's all that stuff, and he's got his website [SPEAKER_03]: he's got a website squared away if you're American and everybody else definitely support our guy Lawrence Lake is doing a lot for all the for the New England School of Mental Work and Center for Mental Arts and I really really appreciate his support.

[SPEAKER_03]: So definitely support Mayor Tim Naysley.com a PS get the Norton Razor Stars [SPEAKER_03]: those belts are that yellow belts, those things are rippers, unbelievable.

[SPEAKER_03]: Next on my friends at Trojan Horse Forge, makers of the stable rail, knife-finishing-vice, and T-4 Sentinel oil.

[SPEAKER_03]: Get all that stuff at Trojan Horse Forge.com, and when you put in the promo code full blast 10, you get 10% off.

[SPEAKER_03]: Next to my friends at Baker Forge, Baker Forge is a new product, not only do they make great exotic steels with all sorts of copper, bronze, my sand, my all that stuff, and it comes in yield ready to use.

[SPEAKER_03]: Stock removal guys, this is the stuff for you, go to Bakerforge.com, put in the promo code full-blast, you can 10% off.

[SPEAKER_03]: They also have Gator Piss, you know what I'm talking about, that's special etching, they got three of them now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Gator-piss, Gator-piss, have you get a Prismax?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know all about it, but they give a new product that I think you're going to be excited about.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's called Grime Reaper.

[SPEAKER_03]: The Grime Reaper is a degreaser.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's citrus-cented, it smells wonderful, that's what they say.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fifty-state compliant, melt-screasing Grime, breaks down all the heaviest buffing compounds, leaves no residue to interfere with their etching acids, price-economically going to compete with standard brake cleaner products.

[SPEAKER_03]: and it will be available in single cans and case quality quantities.

[SPEAKER_03]: You just spray on the brake, spray, liberally on the brake, blade, scrub blade with cloth, the paper towel to get all of that grease and grime off, and etched, dried and gaterpiss.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean the Grime Reaper ain't can't get much better than that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sounds good to me, I already used it, and it smells fantastic.

[SPEAKER_03]: So all of a sudden you got something nice, the smells good, it's got no harsh chemicals and squirt away.

[SPEAKER_03]: So get yourself some of that Grime Reaper and Baker Forge.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can also go to, [SPEAKER_03]: Texas Ferry Supply to get your Gator Pists.

[SPEAKER_03]: Go to TexasFerrySupply.com and if you put in the promo code and I've talked 10, you get 10% off everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: Texas FerrySupply does great stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: They have blacksmithing supplies, bladesmithing supplies, knife-making supplies, fairer stuff, however you identify.

[SPEAKER_03]: and get that, get put in that, and I've talked 10% for 10% off of TexasFairSupply.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go see my guys at TotalBoat.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to do a demo, a two-day demo with TotalBoat.

[SPEAKER_03]: TotalBoat makes great adhesive paints, primers, polishing compounds, and they make this amazing epoxy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love their epoxy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I use their two-part epoxy exclusively for my handle scales.

[SPEAKER_03]: I use their CA glue exclusively, and I use their Fathom deep set to make a hybrid [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm psyched.

[SPEAKER_03]: So go to definitely if you're going to if you're at Maker Camp, this comes out of Friday If you're going to make your camp, it's going to be two days Go check out the Maker Camp situation and I'll be there.

[SPEAKER_03]: If it's good enough for keep decent direct from all the keychons and In that scoundrel Jimmy Dress is good enough for you to go to total boat dot com slash well blast all the [SPEAKER_03]: links are in the bio so definitely of where you're listening to this actually on the bio wherever you're listening to this all the links and all the promo codes all that stuff is definitely there next from your friends at glhance and the sons is g dot l dot underscore hands and sons is they're making g carda go to g carda dot big cartel dot com and see that unique deposit of national fibers and fabrics mixed with epoxy under pressure [SPEAKER_03]: They just sent me a Greg sent me some trout scales and they look really great So the stuff's really easy to use.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's fantastic and it's gonna put some razzled dazzling your ding-dong So definitely get yourself involved with them and make sure that you check out What he's doing go to gcardiopbcarchelle.com [SPEAKER_03]: I want to thank my friends at Tormack, Tormack, Celebrating 50 plus years of being a business with the Blacks T8 Sharpening System.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love the Tormack.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you why I love a break it down real easy.

[SPEAKER_03]: It moves slowly.

[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't remove too much material.

[SPEAKER_03]: It has guide guides and guard rails to make sure that you're successful.

[SPEAKER_03]: It'll help you make very repeatable edges and you're going to be sight.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have one, two, three, four, five, I have six or seven of them.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm gonna make a car some day.

[SPEAKER_03]: A real slow-moving car.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna put a motor upside down on a pallet and I'm gonna roll as slowly as possible down the road.

[SPEAKER_03]: Definitely go check out Tormick, get your sharpening right and go to Tormick underscore sharpening on Instagram to for more.

[SPEAKER_03]: And check out my guys over there, go say hi to a car, Sebastian, go say hi to Jack, those guys are awesome and I love those guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this is customer service is awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you're not Australian, you're thinking yourself, boy, I really like to buy all the stuff, but I don't want to make sure that I know what I'm doing beforehand, go to NordicEdge.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's Nordic Underscore Edge on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you're not Australia, they do a lot of hands-on education, they do leatherworking, blacksmithing, spoon carving classes, and then you're going to be able to get a little bit more of an idea of what you want to do or execute your creativity in the way that they like it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Or the way they'll teach you.

[SPEAKER_03]: They have the guidance to help accelerate your creativity and the tools products and supplies to help you manifest your ideas They definitely have great fog guys their fog guys are outstanding and actually if you want to get one of their fog guys You go to Maritime nice spot calm and they have the Nordic edge fog guys with the bolt on carbides of your really outstanding Bigger forge our Nordic edge.com.au I said Nordic edges of maritime nice plants, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And last but certainly not least, I want to thank my friends at phoenixabrasivesphoenixabrasors.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: Phoenixabrasives supplies a superior brace of products for every application, knife making, metal fabrication, glass fabrication, floor sanding, crankshaft.

[SPEAKER_03]: Belts grinding, cutting discs, flap discs, surface grinding, or surface, conditioning belts and abrasives, they got what you need.

[SPEAKER_03]: I use them, I definitely get some [SPEAKER_03]: Belts from them and if you go to check out at phoenixabrases.com put in promo code fb10 and you're gonna get 10% off your entire order.

[SPEAKER_03]: They have all sorts of different products and stuff like that So definitely without question get yourself some of that phoenixabrases stop playing [SPEAKER_03]: I just got back from the Center for Mental Arts in John Sound, Pennsylvania again.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had a wonderful inspiring time with my man, Pat Quinn, who's here.

[SPEAKER_03]: He is the director of the Center for Mental Arts, and he has just, he's just the one most wonderful host.

[SPEAKER_03]: And every time I'm down there, I'm so inspired by the things that they've done in the sculptures, the new sculptures and the classes and the excitement and it's so great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Pat, how are you?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yo, I'm good.

[SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?

[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, every single time I'm down there at the Center for Mental Arts, I come when I do that every six months or so.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm always, I'm never surprised.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm always amazed at the additions that you provide or the additions to the school in terms of new restorations, new plans, and the new sculpture, the new class sculpture.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, always add in, I'm like the math man, always making additions.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm amazed that, you know, you have such a small crew down there and the massive, massive, uh, additions are always just like exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but, um, you know, as far as crew size, it's really the whole community.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I kind of have a huge crew if you look at it from that perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we get a lot done with a small day today.

[SPEAKER_02]: crew, but all these massive additions and work in the octagon and large scale sculptures that's like that takes the whole community's effort, which is something I'm really grateful and thankful for, but worth mentioning, so it's like that kind of stuff is.

[SPEAKER_02]: really community driven, you know, you're right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I misspoke.

[SPEAKER_03]: I misspoke because what I love is is you have you just finished the forging focus was a two-week program.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was collaborative sculpture.

[SPEAKER_03]: My bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: My bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: Collaborative sculpture was a two-week program.

[SPEAKER_03]: You had Jake James down and you and this amazing group of Smiths and students, [SPEAKER_03]: You talked about that a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was, you know, the first time we ever, well, it's the only, the second time hosting collaborative sculpture in the Octagon and the first time with a visiting instructor.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the piece was, you know, conceived and designed by Jake James and, um, [SPEAKER_02]: There's quite ambitious, and it really is a nice addition to the campus, and it was a wonderful learning experience for everybody and it challenged us in a lot of ways and the octagon that we'd never been challenged before, like both from scale but also technique, like using the hammers in much different ways, which was really exciting, specifically.

[SPEAKER_02]: bending those big arches on the 4,000, and so the piece was really interesting and exciting because it was a lot different than a lot of the other stuff that we had forged in there up to this point, so yeah, what an experience, man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Totally different.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is the other thing as as soon as I kind of came in I kind of I'll walk you have this really beautiful area The buildings are on one side of this train track You train track and then the other side is [SPEAKER_03]: There's some, there's the river and the bridges and and you have these sculptures mounted outside and when you look at these giant sculptures every single one of them has its own voice and they're all different and the neat thing is I remember one of the first times I met you was years ago with Jake James was at Center for Mill Arts in Florida and you guys are doing a collaborative sculpture [SPEAKER_03]: And the work that I've seen that Jake James do, it's very, it's, it's, it's very, there's fake faces and there's buildings and there's, you know, you, they're recognizable as, you know, they're not abstract.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this particular sculpture, it was so far different from anything I've seen him make that it had Jake James, you know, the, the, the fingerprint of Jake James, but it was so different than the things that I'm used to him seeing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I feel the same way about it, and I think, you know, when artists are challenged to design something, you know, to be made in that shop under those hammers, it might be something [SPEAKER_02]: to expect that it's maybe a little bit out of the realm of what they usually make because you know, that shop is sort of out of the realm of where people usually work.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, when I design sculptures to be made in there or, you know, invite other artists to make work in there, we try hard to [SPEAKER_02]: create work under certain parameters that I find to be really successful in that space based on the size of the hammers and the availability of general conveniences or not available conveniences.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, you can't just design whatever you want, mostly, so yeah, it's kind of maybe it's a little bit natural that they're slightly different than what an artist usually makes.

[SPEAKER_03]: What I love is when we were talking and you were kind of explaining so to describe the sculpture and I'm going to use the the Jake James sculpture with you in it as the if you go to full blast podcast and so you're going to be the thumbnail.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like when you look at it the first thing you think of is it's like this wave that kind of erupts out of the ground on one side and makes this big giant arc and then it kind of lands on the other side.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then there's a lot of contrasting elements, you have the the arc and then you have this kind of like I guess you would kind of like similar to like c-flome or something like that where it's like it's exploding out from where the arc where the wave comes out of and then where it lands One of the things that I loved talking to you about and I felt very I felt very like I felt like it was a it was a lot of fun for me is always talking to you in regards to the direction of center for midlarts and how you do [SPEAKER_03]: But the way you talked about building the arch itself, you created this new tooling for the hammers and the octagon.

[SPEAKER_03]: And can you want to talk a little bit about that tooling?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I knew there was going to be a lot of, you know, bending and forming involved in making this sculpture and, uh, which is, you know, going into it, that was one of the things that was sort of exciting to me about it, um, because we, we, we've not really done too much in the way of that before in that shop.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, talking with Jake and the crew about how to best facilitate those kind of moves under the hammer and basically took that like three point sort of bending philosophy that you see a lot on like fly presses or hydraulic presses and things like that and fabricated a very large one to go on to the bottom die of the 4,000.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the top tool was a handheld, you know, roundback flatter, six inch out of six inch round.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was quite, quite a big radius for that tool, but really worked well on that hammer.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I was the driver of the 4,000 for this workshop and, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: my team was challenged with the task of knocking down all this big material into tapered sections and then using that 3-point bending system to form these big arches and [SPEAKER_02]: It was really, really fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like it demanded a lot of patients and attention to detail, and it was incredibly slow, and bending very, very thick material hot, and it was really rewarding.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my team really jell well over there, and...

[SPEAKER_02]: created these arcs to match these templates and all this kind of stuff but was really fun about it was that even though the material was really big like certain sections were like three by six and we were bending them the hard way and so but with the four thousand you know we'd we'd bring it over and I would just rest rest the dye on the material and then [SPEAKER_02]: give the hammer air and use it like a press not like a hammer and it would just ssssssssss and it would just bend as the as the air was being pushed against the ram and it was it was really really awesome and super methodical and peaceful and it was just to work big material that's so hot with such a big hammer with so much finesse was so rewarding.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I would think, you know, we were talking yesterday when you were, you were, you're, usually you give a tour of the Octagon tip when there are classes, workshops, which is just like, everybody who walks into that area, their eyes just bug out and it's just like, you can just see the imagination of what are they doing in here, you know, what could, what can you do with these, it's just, it's always awesome what going in there and talking to people and just kind of watching them.

[SPEAKER_03]: react.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you're bending that arc, well, just to back it up a little bit, it was interesting was you were talking about how a smith, when they have a piece of steel that's hot in a forge, they automatically grab the tongs and then they're trying to pull it out immediately and you don't realize that at the weight of the material that's in the forges in the octagon, [SPEAKER_03]: 200 pounds, 400 pounds, you just can't, it's just impossible to actually get a lot of the steel out by one guy with a pair of tongs out of the forge.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm wondering when you're bending that arc, and the arc is actually is kind of like moving up.

[SPEAKER_03]: How do you hold this giant material where one end is up in the air and then the other end is up in the air?

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know it's a number of hundred pounds.

[SPEAKER_03]: And how do you manipulate that arc?

[SPEAKER_03]: Where am I wrong or the legs?

[SPEAKER_03]: The legs are both up, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: legs are up well but yeah you're not wrong um i think maybe it's worth it to talk about some scale here because you know the arch was broken into several sections right so no no section of the arch or the arch was longer than seven feet [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like when you're forming that thing on the hammer and you you're bending it and both the tips are going up as you're bending it Yes, but it's it's not such a long piece of material where those bends go really high up in the air and the arc is really gradual So in the in the the forming of it is so low impact [SPEAKER_02]: that the team just was able to hold the material with big flat jaw or v-bit tongs, and you just kind of like supporting it as it forms, letting the material kind of rise up as it's being bent, and you're just there to prevent it from toppling over, which it doesn't really want to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're just there to kind of like slide it and advance it on the bending jig as we're gradually creating this arc.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's so amazing, and if I were to look at all the sculptures, there's the beautiful sculpture that you did with the team, and then there's the Pete Matilla, Patilla, sculpture that'll be giant wall that a lot of people have seen, and then there's the sculpture that you, their first sculpture you guys did with Ballard forge, and one of the things that this one represents is more movement.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know where it's coming out of ground and coming making this incredible arc.

[SPEAKER_03]: The sculpture is one of the hardest things to kind of create steel sculpture, especially one of the hardest things to create the concept of movement.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have this material that's so heavy and it's so massive and when you see the sculpture that's coming out of the octagon, it's just like it's massive, it's monumental forge sculpture.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's so hard to create that concept of movement with this very strong permanent material.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I think that's one of the very successful aspects of this most recent sculptor is one of the first comments out of most everybody's mouth is it, you know, the sense of movement is really there and even though those big, like, forged, like two-inch plate forms are quite heavy and still very thick in certain cross sections.

[SPEAKER_02]: It has a, it has a lightness to it and a, and a movement to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's really Captivating to the viewer.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because we all know how Big and heavy these pieces in this material is so, you know, from that, from that perspective, obviously very, very successful.

[SPEAKER_03]: and it's all very overwhelming if you might be saying because it's like that great part is as you're seeing the sculpture and you're seeing this material and you know that it's forged because you have the you know the fingerprints of the process it's all just it's just awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: I hope that you're happy with it with how things are going.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am, dude, but I'm also, you know, constantly refining and reflecting and all that kind of stuff, you know, so every year is a really informative learning experience, and so after every one of these, well, this is only the second one, but [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine, and we all plan on this being a very important part of our annual workshop schedule.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm always reflecting, I'm always changing, I'm always improving, you know, both from the, you know, what the capability of the shop is like, but also from the student experience and everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am very happy and CMA is a really special place to be able to come here and work under these hammers creatively with a group of like-minded people and the community building aspect of it all and it's really, it's really great so I'm super happy and super lucky but it comes with a lot of hard work both mentally and physically.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had the fortune of having dinner with you and your partner air and you brought you guys broke out these, you know, basically picture albums.

[SPEAKER_03]: These books about the first year of moving Center for Mental Arts from New York to John's Town and I was looking through these images and I'm thinking, I'm just like blown away about how much work's been done in the past seven years, which is just monumental.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you were to think back to those days back in what 2018, was that right, 2018, 2017, 2017, does that Pat Quinn have, what are the expectations, do you think that he would have felt that you've reached the expectations that he had in mind when you moved down to John's town?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean totally exceeded and blown them out of the water.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, yeah, I mean like, you know, I looked at [SPEAKER_02]: move here for the prospect to run those big hammers without any sort of concept of how we were going to do that or how long it would take and you know you know I'm confident that the self-contained 2000 will be running by September of next year.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I, you know, I would never would have imagined in less than 10 years we'd have three hammers running and, and, and, and running educational programming in that shop, you know, um, so, you know, I couldn't be, couldn't be happier.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just wish I was 10 years younger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the biggest problem that's the biggest problem, but I mean it is looking through those because I knew you before you moved down And I just looking at a younger guy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not I mean not too much different.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know seven years isn't really that You know the long way period of time a lot different though a lot different, you know, you think so I was I was a fun guy back then [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you said it, but I don't like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like what you say that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like it when you say that, frankly, because I don't think that's true.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that you're locked in.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're focused.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like you just said, you've exceeded the expectations of, you know, the fun guy you're referring to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't have kidding, you know, and I know you are, I know you are.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, I just, when I look at those pictures and I see, [SPEAKER_03]: the space, the raw space as you're walking through.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, I'm a, you know, I'm of much more superficial person I'm thinking I would be like, oh, this is just too much work.

[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't possibly tackle a project like this.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what you've done, just restoring one in the hammer is a little long, too.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then creating the student space and not to mention creating [SPEAKER_03]: the residency, the place where people can stay, the directory where there's terrific dormitory where people can stay.

[SPEAKER_03]: You feel like, I mean, it's just so much work.

[SPEAKER_03]: You've done it all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, with a crew and a community.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's like I do appreciate it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because [SPEAKER_02]: You know, personally have assumed a lot of risk coming out here and trying to make this a reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I do think like lots of times, to the general public or the public perception of CMA is that it's like, it's like the Pat Quinn thing sometimes or whatever, but I try really hard to make sure that everybody knows it's, [SPEAKER_02]: Not only is none of this possible without Mark Heidi and Nate, but also, you know, the visiting instructors that come every year, but the general community who supports what we do and takes our classes and comes to the conference and volunteers their time, I think, like overwhelmingly supportive and this would not be successful without that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, yeah, so a big, big thanks to everybody who's involved in this wonderful, you know, the forging community, honestly, the creative forging community that's blossoming right now is is really great community to be involved in.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, [SPEAKER_02]: overwhelmingly positive, overwhelmingly inclusive, and welcoming, and all that kind of stuff, and to just be a small part of that, I think, is really special.

[SPEAKER_02]: It makes me feel really good.

[SPEAKER_03]: And how is the conference?

[SPEAKER_03]: This past September?

[SPEAKER_02]: Conference was great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had a great, great turnout.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, excuse me, numbers were a little bit lower than normal, but it's never been about just getting as many people here as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: more about, you know, crafting the right kind of, well, not the right kind of experience, but one that is creative and welcoming and showcasing all the hard work that was done in the Octagon, but also this new aspect of it, which is the competition, which is really fun, that one really well.

[SPEAKER_02]: and just kind of growing that slowly but surely and making it in the exhibition as well was really strong this year and a lot of great young artists and really creative pieces and it just I feel like the [SPEAKER_02]: Next generation blacksmiths and a lot of the youngsters that are up and coming are in school.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like at the American College of the Building Arts or you know Austin Community College, Carbon Dale or whatever seem to come here to celebrate and have fun at that.

[SPEAKER_02]: at our conference and stuff like that, and I really really like that, and that's not to knock the old folks because they're important too, but as far as blacksmiths events go, this one trends very young, which I think is really exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's super important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, super important.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And your direction with Center for Mental Arts about, but you know, we've talked about this for a tour of Blue and the face, but the idea is, [SPEAKER_03]: is really something special.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's not many places in the United States who was able to make giant sculpture on this magnitude.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, and then also for for educational purposes, really is also exciting, too, because [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the people that perform the best in that shop are the people that have like, you know, gone through some power ham, some structured power ham or curriculum, whether that's at, you know, CMA or some other facility, educational facility, you know, it's really important and it really helps you understand, you know, how to move every movement [SPEAKER_02]: you want to be as efficient as possible in a shop like the octagon because of the size and weight of the material and everything so if you have [SPEAKER_02]: The better understanding you have of making shapes on a smaller power hammer, the better experience you're going to have in that octagon, and I can only speak from like this sort of like CMA community bubble, but it's like I a lot of the work that I make in there you know is directly related obviously to the [SPEAKER_02]: introduction to power hammer curriculum that I teach at CMA, you know, with, of course, some sort of I expand on that kind of stuff a lot, but it's all rooted in, in the foundational techniques that I teach.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, when I teach somebody or they come here for the forging focus or they've taken a lot of power hammer workshops with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we go to the octagon.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very easy to train them because they already know exactly how the material should be moved, whether it's a top tool or a bottom tool and the difference between making parallel forgings versus tapered forgings and the nuance around all those decisions and things like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I love is I feel as though you've become a better communicator to your students.

[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of that is I feel like we were talking about people in general and people who are working in the octagon with you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's so team-dependent and you've mentioned already the crews and communities and everything that [SPEAKER_03]: you yourself have to be a little bit more tuned to how you express yourself because when you're in the octagon with a team you have very very specific tasks that have to be communicated and completely understood.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's not a position where you say you understand what you're doing and someone says I think so.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, do you feel as though it's made you a better communicator?

[SPEAKER_02]: It has, you know, and I think most people who know me or spend time with me, you know, think that I'm a very quiet individual of which I am, I generally don't say things unless I know them to be true or feel really strongly about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the amount of words that come out of my mouth or are not very many, but in the octagon, it's very important that you know what you're doing and you're able to communicate that clearly and loudly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it has made me a better communicator.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it's also made me a better researcher and blacksmith and what it does really is it forces you it forces you to analyze every move and not only the like [SPEAKER_02]: how you do it but the why you do it which you know before we started working in the octagon as much as we do now has become a very important part of CMA's educational curriculum because I you know it's really easy to show how but it's not that easy to explain why but everybody wants to know why and the why really informs the how and the two are just like [SPEAKER_02]: They have to be, they have to exist together.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you're working in the octagon, the how and the why are super important, and then the communication to the team is super important because it takes so much physical energy to get the material to the hammer, and sure it's hot for a long time because of the thermal mass.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you get it to the hammer and then you have to figure out what you're doing, it's incredibly frustrating and it's a big waste of time and resources.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, often meet with the team before every heat and come up with a plant and like draw it out on the floor or chalkboard or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: give everybody clearly defined roles, and then you know the team leader, whether that's the lead artist or somebody that's been assigned as team leader, that's not the lead artist, but knows the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: is sort of like a coach or like, um, I don't know how to describe it, but you're, uh, giving very clear, like, commands and not in like a militant way, but very loud, clear, you know, uh, directional sort of, [SPEAKER_02]: Verbiage that lets the team know what they should be doing when they should be doing it and how it should be done.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then once that like starts to gel then it becomes really efficient and really fun to be at the hammers, you know.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've always said that for me, when doing any kind of teaching or instructing, it makes me have a being able to explain it so people can be successful.

[SPEAKER_03]: It always gives me a better sense of what I'm doing if I'm able to convey what I'm asking someone to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it always gives me a bit more understanding of the final goal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's relatively rewarding.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like you said about getting better at communicating, it's really important, and also like one thing that I've learned a lot and feed back from students as well as like when I'm communicating at the hammer, before we get to the hammer and we have our little team [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're going to bring this thing over, we're going to get it to the dyes, you know, turn it parallel to the long dimension of the dyes and use the butcher to butcher in three inches, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you have this very clearly defined and achievable goal to reach during one heat, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But there always is [SPEAKER_02]: moments because we're making sculpture where you get to a point and you don't know what to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I call it like a blessing and a curse of being an artist that forges is we have the blessing and the curse of almost never making the same thing twice.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're always faced with a lot of problem solving and decision making that [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully is based on prior experience and skills that we've developed from a foundational standpoint.

[SPEAKER_02]: But we're always making new and interesting shapes, which always presents new and interesting problems to solve and decisions to make.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you're at the hammer and you get to that point, I found that the team's really respond well if you look at them and you're like, [SPEAKER_02]: We're at a point now where I'm not quite sure what the next thing to do is why don't we go ahead and get it back in the fire and then go over to the chalkboard and let's talk about what our options are.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, rather than be at the hammer and like pretend you know what to do and then have them rotate the material like a bunch of ways that don't turn out to work very well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Lose a lot of heat, expend a lot of energy, and then make the team frustrated.

[SPEAKER_02]: you stop, you look within yourself, you go, I don't know everything and I'm gonna say that to the crew right because it's okay to be vulnerable and then we're gonna put the thing back in the fire so it heats up and we're gonna create a plan so that we all know what to do when we come out again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's gonna work, maybe it's not but at least we'll all be on the same page.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because when you're not on the same page, it gets chaotic.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if the lead smith doesn't know what they're doing or the team leader or whatever, and then everybody on the team starts shouting out what they want to do is no turn to clockwise, no spin it this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, oh God, we're my tongs like...

[SPEAKER_02]: That is not a great way to work at these hammers, making creative sculptural forgings.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's where the communication really comes into play and the teams that I've worked with have really benefited from that and appreciated that sort of level of openness and communication.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would think that some of the team would also rise to the occasion when you say, all right, let's go to the chalkboard and figure this out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Definitely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, [SPEAKER_02]: And this is like hard to say, because I don't want people to misunderstand this, but like at the hammer with hot metal, one person calling the shots.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not the time to be like, what if we do this or, you know, this person's on the tongs and they're like, I think it would be better.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's not the time for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: The time for that's at the chalkboard.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you feel like you have that idea when we're forging, it's like just keep it to yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: and save it for the chalkboard because it gets received much better there and it can be considered by everybody and sort of like a quiet more contemplative space you know i mean i receive i love getting feedback from all the students and and [SPEAKER_02]: It's not uncommon for a student to be like Pat, I think it would work better if we rotated it this way and use this tool.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I go, oh, you know what?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's try that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in the heat of the moment, there's not the time for like group decision-making, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, see, but this is part of the, you know, you've only done this four times around, not including the animal making.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Three or four times.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you're actually learning based on the experience of what can happen in the acting on based on experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: yeah and it's it's sculpture or it's anvil making or it's stock making or whatever we're doing or just having like a play day or whatever it's it's all led up to like you know my philosophy about how to work and communicate in that shop that I feel really strongly about that students have also you know confirmed invalidated the way I feel about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are you looking forward to heading towards 2026?

[SPEAKER_02]: everything and I think the biggest, the biggest thing that I'm looking forward to that I'm working on really hard right now is buttoning up all the loose ends for us to launch our very first one year long program at CMA that we're calling the Passport program and [SPEAKER_02]: We've got some very generous funding from some very generous foundations that are incredibly supportive of our educational mission here, and mostly related to the long-term workshops and the scholarship portions of what we do, so, you know, with some major funding and some additional funding, we were able to put together this sort of like, [SPEAKER_02]: dream or vision that we've had as an organization for a little while of creating like a one-year program.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's like a certificate program.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really want to call it a certificate program, but essentially that's what it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a residency slash internship slash certificate program.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you come to CMA for a full year.

[SPEAKER_02]: participate in every one of our workshops, including the long-term stuff, with the addition of a new scholarship funded four-week workshop that focuses on the creation and installation of a major architectural iron piece, all the way through your last six weeks at the winter residency working on a final project based on your own research and interests.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's like the elevator picture, I guess.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we should get into that at some point here like in a lot of detail, because I got a lot to say about it, but I'm getting the sense we might want to take a couple questions here.

[SPEAKER_03]: year that you look at you.

[SPEAKER_03]: You serve it up to me on a silver platter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [SPEAKER_03]: You can go to full glass podcast on Instagram and then you can send us your questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just as Armand, Peter Brass predicts, FireForge has.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he asks, what are your thoughts on the relevance of forgework in today's modern world?

[SPEAKER_03]: That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a great question.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can, can, can you do me a favor and repeat that question?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are your thoughts on the relevance of forge work in today's modern world?

[SPEAKER_03]: Did we answer this one already?

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I think it's incredibly relevant from a creative standpoint and a functional standpoint, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's changed a lot from how relevant it used to be when you think more along the lines of like colonialism and you know a village blacksmith that's here to help a smaller subset of society function through the creation and maintenance of tools and hardware and things like that to more like [SPEAKER_02]: industrial, large-scale applications like nuclear pressure vessels and things for big navy ship shafts and aircraft landing gear.

[SPEAKER_02]: All that stuff has to be forged still and everybody really encounters [SPEAKER_02]: tons of stuff in their daily life that is forged.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just don't realize it that much, because it's sort of hidden or it's under the hood of your car.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or it doesn't look forged because of modern manufacturing practices have changed and forging processes have become more streamlined.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's really relevant and still present [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but it doesn't scream forged work as one would generally tend to think of it like a forged hinge or a thumb latch or something like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that there's a possibility that it could be more of a visual thing?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you think about forging and it's there's these, especially when you look at the sculpture you guys have made.

[SPEAKER_03]: There are these telltale sirens in the process that screams, okay, this was forges was not cast.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it feels as though, is there a possibility that this could kind of read with the exception of just art?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that this is something that can be more widely seen as a terrific application or addition to modern architecture or, you know, the, how we see the world in general?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, man, because the whole, like, look of forging is not, that's like, that's reserved for crafts people or artists, I feel like, or like, process driven interests, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think like, most of the forging, you know, that happens nowadays, that's not creative.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not about the look, it's more about it being the right way to make the thing like a pressure vessel, for instance, whether it's, it doesn't matter, but if it's, if it's forged, it's, it's much stronger than if it's fabricated and if it's forged out of one piece.

[SPEAKER_02]: with two caps rather than a rolled piece of plate with a seam, that's the best process for that outcome, or for that use, you know, and then that gets fully machined after it gets forged.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it has nothing to do with what it looks like, but then there's people like us who, [SPEAKER_02]: who love the process so much from a creative standpoint that we can let the evidence of the process show in the finished work.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that I think is like a very new mindset and philosophy, you know, and if you even think of like, [SPEAKER_02]: Forge tools from the late 1700s or early 1800s, and I'm not like a historian on this sort of stuff, but I'll just use like box joint pliers as an example, where that was a tool that a lot of crafts needed to make their work, that employed a blacksmith to make it, but it doesn't look forge because it's been completely, [SPEAKER_02]: Filed and white smithed after it's been forged and so like You know back then Blacksmiths were forging also because it was the right way to get the desired function of a tool or something like that But they weren't like whoa like this looks so cool because it's forged You know forging was a means to an end and then it got cleaned up and I think like [SPEAKER_02]: you know, in modern days, even like throughout the 1900s or like, you know, tools and fixtures and things that were made in the octagon here, a lot of them went to the machine shop afterward to get machines because they were parts to machines or, you know, backup rolls for rolling mills or crane hooks or something like that and like the idea of like, [SPEAKER_02]: Having something look forged is really new in the lifespan of this thing, or like...

[SPEAKER_02]: be like celebrating that, I think, and maybe I'm totally wrong who knows, but yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But even there's like, I always joke around who's like, whack it with a ball peen to give it that forged look, you know, it's like, people, we could have a whole conversation about whether something that looks forged is attractive to a modern consumer, not, [SPEAKER_02]: Um, to some people it is and to some people it is and I think it depends on where you are and who you associate with or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I take the stance more of like, you know, I want to forge it because I'm trying to make a three-dimensional shape, and that's the best way to do it without losing a ton of material or spending my life like grinding away material.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to redistribute where it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, but I don't, I don't like giving it an [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like give it texture just to make it look forged, if it has texture from the forging that's great, I don't, I don't sand it off or anything but I also don't just do it just to make it look forged, which I know there are people out there that do that and they get they sell their work based on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mindset or whatever, but I'm often actually like, you know, planishing at a low heat to kind of smooth out my surfaces after I forge them and stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that like, and not toot in my own horn here because other Smiths do it as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I believe that like there's a certain level of refinement there and, you know, finishing of the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: That can be really attractive.

[SPEAKER_03]: We had a question early on, and I lost the guy's name, but what we were talking about low-heated, it kind of jogged my memory in regards to our conversations that we had, you talked to me that the question was originally, what do you think of the induction forges?

[SPEAKER_03]: The induction forges just to describe what an induction forges can we just describe?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think you can describe what a one is?

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't even know how I would describe but an induction forges.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't either, but I know it uses electricity, really, to heat up the material, I have no idea from a scientific level how it works.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's like a coil and you stick the material into the coil, and then it magically heats up as though they think I can think of.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, I don't know how it works and I don't care.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I just know it works really well for certain processes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, um, you know, I'm excited to, we just acquired one over here.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, um, I used one actually in Canada when I was demoing it can't iron and it knocked my socks off.

[SPEAKER_02]: Really?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I thought, like, I cannot live another day as a blacksmith without [SPEAKER_02]: having an induction forage in my shop.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I made that a reality one way or another and I still have, I still have some work to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I know we're not really looking for sponsorships or endorsements or anything like that yet, but I'm excited to give it a go and see how it performs and [SPEAKER_02]: report back, but my experience, my very, very small experience with it was, it was just on half inch square bar, but it got so hot.

[SPEAKER_02]: like way hotter than my gas forge could ever get anything and I'm so not interested in hand forging and I'm so not interested in hand forging material that's not as hot as it can be which is almost everything from, you know, modern gas forges or whatever but [SPEAKER_02]: I just, I like, it got the material like white hot, you know, and certainly got it yellow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the forges, the gas forges that we have, and most people have, you can get a bright orange, maybe yellow, but that's about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, if I'm going to be swinging a hammer at something, and it's white versus orange, it's your energy's going to go a lot further, and super interested in, like, [SPEAKER_02]: super localized heat for, you know, things like final set, Tom Jaws, or, you know, forging the bits on the v bits where you only need, like, an inch or so of the material to be hot, but you don't need all that radiant heat from the gas forge, you know, soaking into your whole piece and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's going to be, I'm into it, man, and looking forward to setting it up and [SPEAKER_03]: Can you describe the difference between in regards to when you're hitting something that's orange, you know, max out at a gas forge, and it's, you know, a little bit higher than orange, to moving material at like yellow or white?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's like hitting a piece of cold material versus like hitting a stick of butter.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's like, I don't, you know, I use gas for a lot, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm a power hammer smith, so ultimately I'm not, I'm not using my arms and muscles and tendons to really like rely on getting the shape I want.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm using a big machine, so if it's like, you know, orange, I'm okay because you know, it's still going to do it and I can just go back in and [SPEAKER_02]: Keep working without damaging my body or whatever, but when I teach Almost everything I teach now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I teach out of the coal forges at CMA because I'm not not interested in [SPEAKER_02]: And orange heat, I'm interested in yellow heat and the coal forges are able and willing to get the material that hot and your energy goes really far and I think like [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to teaching basic forging to people, the first technique you have to learn is not tapering, it's not shouldering, it's not [SPEAKER_02]: a parallel forging, it's heating up the metal, and a lot of people skip right over that, and they go right into swinging a hammer at the anvil, and so we spend significant amount of time here teaching fire management with the, obviously, with the help of Mark Kelly, coal fire management and maintenance, so that when you pull your material out and bring it over to the anvil, you're using your energy the most efficient way possible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have very limited experience with the induction forge and I did like the localized parts of it, like I could heat up something in the middle of a piece and not have to worry about one side of the other being hot.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love that I love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel as though fire a heat management is something that's kind of usually overlooked.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that I ever really thought about it as much until I talked to you.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I would imagine that, you know, that's a, it just so, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't expect you to be as, I don't know what I expected.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what, the deduction forged to me I always feel like it's like this new thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not dude, it's like, it's not.

[SPEAKER_02]: Dude, I mean, they use them in industry, honestly, and it's like, I've seen these, it's not new technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know let's put that out there already but what is new just like with power hammers like and presses is making it available to the hobbyist okay that is new okay right so [SPEAKER_02]: Having induction heat has been done in industry for a long, long time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not new.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, there's production shops we'll use induction heating to heat up bars that pass through a coil on some sort of pusher, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So the bar is passing through the coil and heating up and it's pushing it at the right speed [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when eight inches of that bar comes out the end of the coil, there's a machine there that cuts it right off hot, it rolls right down it.

[SPEAKER_02]: shoot to the blacksmith and then they forge it and as they're forging it the next eight inches is being pushed right through that coil getting up to temperature and stuff like that so like um and then in the old axle plant here you know the neighboring building to CMA there's a huge induction heater in there but it's induction heater for [SPEAKER_02]: melt metal in that you know and so this is like it's not new technology but it's new availability of technology.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, thanks for sending you straight on that one.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you know you see these small ones and you're just like this is kind of new to the [SPEAKER_03]: You're right.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's new to anybody who wants to have something in their shop that they don't want to burn their shop down.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's like there's not a smoke, there's not a lot of, all right, I've said enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, and it's exactly right, you know, and there's a big market out there to make tools and equipment for the hobbyist who lives in a residential neighborhood.

[SPEAKER_02]: that wants to make work on an anvil and with a press or whatever and more power to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that it's getting the accessibility of the craft out there to a lot of different people and an induction forages.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think are part of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm excited because I don't have a coal forge on my side of the shop, so you know, I'm always longing for that yellow white heat, but I can't, I can't get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Having the induction for our dover and in the research shop there is going to be I think really helpful So yeah, well I'll do for you when you get a net set up.

[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about The applications especially to sculpture.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, all right all right Next one comes to our from our man D.W.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wood builds Anytime frame on restoring the A frame hammer That's the giant hammer in the back room of the octagon [SPEAKER_02]: yeah the double arch double arch um yeah well i've been optimisticly saying to people maybe five years okay i think 2026 obviously we're gonna be focused on uh she's me on uh fixing and running the [SPEAKER_02]: which will be really exciting but then at that point all the hammers in the octagon will have been restored and that leaves excuse me that leaves too left there's one in the side room that's like a 1200 niles beam it and then the double arch in the back room and I can't say for sure but my gut tells me that probably start to poke away at the double arch before [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's not such a simple restoration job from a logistical standpoint, so we'll have to dig into it and see what happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, fixing the hammer is one thing, having a furnace to serve as it is another, and then, you know, acquiring material that's big enough to actually warrant the use of the hammer is another.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then there's access to the building to that room with four cliffs and overhead doors.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if we take the hammer apart, do we have to take the roof off?

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of stuff to the consider.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: One operation that's you've been thinking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So five years is optimistic, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's on a key of a ball, we'll just play it by ear.

[SPEAKER_02]: Think about what you've done in seven.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[SPEAKER_03]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's drop down to Nerham and I have a great dude, not too far from Jesse.

[SPEAKER_03]: Constuence travel long distances stay in the facilities the night before classes start.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely, that's something to coordinate with Heidi in our office, and something we facilitate to students for sure, so if it's not explicitly available as an option on the website, a simple phone call to the office would take care of it quite easily, I believe.

[SPEAKER_02]: We try to accommodate, you know, as many people as we can.

[SPEAKER_03]: And by the way, the directory is terrific.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's always spotless and it's a nice place to be and people kind of, you know, congregate in the kitchen and it's just like, it's a really, it's a really, really nice place to be.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm appreciative of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's always hot water and the bathrooms are always spotless.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can eat off the floors.

[SPEAKER_03]: The whole place is dynamite.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love sleeping in room number four.

[SPEAKER_03]: Room number four is for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: 100% but I don't all of them are great.

[SPEAKER_03]: All the rooms are great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go to caffeine forge.

[SPEAKER_03]: Any plans?

[SPEAKER_03]: We might advance this a while ago, but we'll just [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, there are, I might sort of like wrap that into induction, introduction, introduction to utility hammer forging or I've really began to realize that, you know, the goal in that [SPEAKER_02]: is about the community and it's about the teams, right, it's about the teams at the hammer and it's about.

[SPEAKER_02]: I used to think that like, we would talk a lot about visiting instructors and getting international artists in there and stuff like that, and that is still a huge goal of ours.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I've [SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking a lot about the importance of training students and other people on those hammers, because for every one visiting instructor, you need ten competent blacksmiths if you want to use both the hammers.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know full stop and so you know one visiting instructors vision is only as achievable as the you know the competence of the teams around the hammer so I'm considering offering these classes that are like introduction to forging in the octagon per se like where you come to CMA and we work in the octagon but we basically do [SPEAKER_02]: You know, my introduction to power hammer curriculum that we do in the small classroom, but we do it on the big hammers and we use like five and six inch round instead of one inch round.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, so as to like get more people exposed, uh, to working in that space and familiar with all the different roles and responsibilities it takes to do so, um, and then, you know, one might be able to distill, uh, and build forging into a series of basic, uh, techniques, and that one might be me, and, uh, so that might be an outlet for that sort of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could be like an annual making workshop that's really like a introduction to steam hammer workshop or some sort of combination of the two and then and so yeah, I have been thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I still have a bit more.

[SPEAKER_02]: research, R&D to do before, you know, before like putting all my research out there, but I have been considering it, and I do believe it's a real possibility in the not so distant future.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa.

[SPEAKER_02]: unbelievable but i mean there's two ways to do it right there's like come here and make make-and-vills you know that stay here uh...

and get met get used in the classroom i mean it's a big goal of mine to forge all the animals for the classroom [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then there's another way of doing it, which is like, come here and make your own andville, which are two very different, um, very different experiences and perhaps one has to happen before the other and one has to also figure out, you know, the price point of each so that CMA doesn't wind up in the hole.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, there's, there's two real clear avenues I feel like.

[SPEAKER_03]: and it's not like a hammer making class where you can heat treat hammer head in you know just sick of it in the evening and then drop it in your water yeah you know the whole is a little bit more of an operation to heat treat yeah and it's it's also not a machining class right so I'm also I'm trying to figure out one of the things I've been working on recently is um [SPEAKER_02]: the creation of a smaller anvil in that shop.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one that relies much less on machine connections between two legs and a bridge top or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Something that's a little more accessible, a little easier to take home with you and use.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the heat treatment and the machining of the anvil.

[SPEAKER_02]: arguably more time-consuming and labor-intensive than the forging, and that is definitely not something I'm prepared to teach nor can I facilitate the heat treatment.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I can point you in the right direction for somebody that can do it for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: That also brings us back to when we're talking about when with Peter Brass makes his question and we're talking about when you're forging something and it goes to the machine shop.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're looking at those classic bridge animals that were made in the facility.

[SPEAKER_03]: They weren't focusing on machining them down.

[SPEAKER_03]: They were just machining down the parts that needed to be exposed.

[SPEAKER_03]: The exposed parts that needed to be machined down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_02]: They...

Gosh, just the connections, just the surfaces, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: They...

they...

I mean, this kind of, like, calls back to what we were talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you forge what needs to be forage, and you machine what needs to be machined, and then you don't do any extraneous processes based on aesthetic.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that I love and we were actually talking with some of the students in regards to looking at the handlers, the animals that you forge where you're leaving that the exposed pooch at the end of the hand with the end of the hand, well, they kind of like shows the forging process.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like, [SPEAKER_03]: not forgetting where it came from.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, my love letter, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It, I mean, it is.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I actually, I took pictures of, I took pictures of all the cutoffs you have, of all the poochies you've cut off and in sculpture, you have this like this, [SPEAKER_03]: table and there's just like this village of these little cutoff pooches and That's a pooch garden.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a pooch garden.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just this It's just beautiful love note to the fact that you hit the steel and then the steel move from the middle and it didn't you know You didn't have [SPEAKER_03]: you know this it was the proper heat and it was the proper hit and it's like it's it's not as subtle as if you really think about what it is right you know it's that the heat was right the hit was right the positioning was right and the material moved you hit it down and then the move from the middle out mm-hmm exactly from core to surface from core to surface and that's a class too right that's the that's the name of our exhibition or annual exhibition that's right [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, let's go with Steve King.

[SPEAKER_03]: Steve King says, here's a question for Pat, what steel do you use for power hammer dies?

[SPEAKER_03]: And what temperature do you temper the dies after hardening?

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks again, Steve.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great question Steve.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I could answer it fully, but I've used everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've used 4140 and 4340 only and I have not.

[SPEAKER_02]: ever heat-treated power hammer dies personally, even a chunk of metal, I guess I've made them for I made the dies for my nasal and my riter and um [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I probably could have he treated the ridder dies here, but I sent them to a heat treat facility to do for me because when you do that they go [SPEAKER_02]: Yes sir, what Rockwell would you like that and you give them a number and then you get your dies back successfully.

[SPEAKER_02]: He treated and tempered and I want to forge.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to heat treat so some of those things I pass off to shops and individuals who have that technology and science figured out and can do it much better and more efficiently that I can and that leaves me [SPEAKER_02]: available to do more forging, which is what I like better.

[SPEAKER_02]: Same can be said about the machining of the dovetails on power hammer dies.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've done that myself and still like to do that myself a little bit because I find it to be a valuable educational experience for me at the mill to machine the dovetails both from a measuring and also actual machining standpoint.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I tend to get some enjoyment out of that because I feel like every time I do it, I get better as a machinist of which I'm not very good, so, you know, I celebrate that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when it comes to heat treating, you know, I'm simply not interested, and I want it to be done right and professional for the longevity of the tool and the safety of everybody around me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So whenever possible, you know, I try to pass that off to the shop.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna add one more.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna add an old favorite.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's an old favorite, but it's a, you know, this is a bring us back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Zach Mape's asks, what is the recommended hammer size?

[SPEAKER_03]: I find trying to move metal with a three pound hammer.

[SPEAKER_03]: It gets done a lot quicker.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then dropping down to an 18 ounce for form and fit.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are the experts say?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think this is a [SPEAKER_03]: I think we should find some experts and ask them then.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now that we don't have any experts, we're like all of a sudden raising our hands.

[SPEAKER_03]: What's your opinion on hammer size?

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know it's changed over the years.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but not really too much, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: My opinion is lighter hammer, higher heat, so whatever that means to you for what you're doing is the right thing to do, but I have two pound and one quarter of a pound.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think is a pretty sweet, [SPEAKER_02]: all purpose for a jing size and um that's without the without the handle um I usually usually make tools to wait based on the tool itself without the handle and so it'll if you placed on a scale after the handles and it'll it'll read a little bit heavier um [SPEAKER_02]: But that's the range for me, and I'm much more focused on getting my material hot enough for that hammer to do something that I am like getting a somewhat hot piece of metal and hitting it with a much bigger hammer.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's sustainable, and I think it can be potentially damaging to your body.

[SPEAKER_02]: and just physically exhausting, honestly.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Love it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And here's the last question from it.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is Matt, Matt Mabane, Matt with a pan.

[SPEAKER_03]: Great dude, never forged before and he's asking a really great question.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are there shapes or slash forms or tools that are notoriously difficult to forge?

[SPEAKER_03]: And the opposite is there anything that's easy to forge?

[SPEAKER_03]: And he's got no experience whatsoever.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he's just like, you know, really interested in the concept.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's shapes that are easy, easy, you're easier, and shapes that are difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, let me just, let me think this one through out loud, forging is neither additive nor reductive simply put, I mean, you can make it both, but you know, in its simplest form, [SPEAKER_02]: a finite amount of volume and using heat and pressure to redistribute where the material is, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so one thing to consider when you're forging, I think every shape can be hard and every shape can be easy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just depends on your understanding of the basic principles of forging.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I mean by that is when you strike the material, [SPEAKER_02]: with a hammer or a tool, the shape of that tool is going to dictate the direction in which the material goes in.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you use a tool that is advantageous for the direction, you want the material to go, then you're going to find that your shapes become easier to make.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if you [SPEAKER_02]: If you use a tool where it goes in all directions like a flat surface on a flat surface or a round top surface on a spherical top surface on a flat bottom surface Your material is going to go in all directions and if you only want your material to go long Then you have to constantly work to take the material that went in the direction you don't want it to go [SPEAKER_02]: and make it go in the direction you wanted to go and that's going to make your shape harder to forge.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think like basic understanding of tool shapes and directions is really important to make as many shapes as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think easy shapes fall in the category of tapers, parallel forgings, squares, rounds [SPEAKER_02]: Any shape that doesn't really have shoulders in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think once you introduce shouldering, you start to complicate your shapes, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you have one side and shoulder, that becomes a little bit easier because you don't have to consider shoulders around the entire cross-section, but then as you, [SPEAKER_02]: As you move into like a foresighted shoulder or you know another way to describe that would be like a tenon Think around tenon off of a round bar or square tenon off of a square bar that becomes a little more complicated because you need specialty tooling in order to make it cleanly and efficiently.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know does that [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, it brings me to one of the great t-shirts that I got from you this past weekend.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a motto that I know you've been talking about for quite a while, fighting the rhombus, fighting the rhombus.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell me why we're to fight the rhombus?

[SPEAKER_03]: And what is the rhombus?

[SPEAKER_03]: And why are you getting here?

[SPEAKER_03]: And how do we prevent it?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, the easiest shape to make is a rhombus, so unfortunately, it's often one that we don't actually want.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, that's where, that's where fighting the rhombus came from originally.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's funny because I don't love the concept of fighting something, but I do think it works in this context, but you know, [SPEAKER_02]: Forging a square cross section is difficult and it takes attention to detail, both visually and also physically, right, so you have to pay very close attention to your hammer control and your tongue control in order to not have a rhombus, and if you're not.

[SPEAKER_02]: always conscious of that and always making micro-corrections as you forge when you're learning how to forge, rompuses can happen easily and they can be very unwelcome and so a big part of microiculum is teaching students how to identify when it's happening and what the best ways [SPEAKER_02]: of which they're several, so we at CMA talk about fighting the rhombus all the time and that's become a big part of our lexicon and curriculum and to the point where I've even got in matching tattoos with a bunch of students about rhombus corrections and so this character has wound up on a t-shirt, so [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's immortalized on on skin and fabric.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's that's dedication.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: That is major dedication.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've always I've part of for me it's.

[SPEAKER_03]: My dyes are off-center, one's a little bit different than the other, or if I'm holding you in a little bit laxed days ago, all of a sudden, my square, your reins, all of a sudden, they become rhombus, and then all of a sudden, they turn on the diagonal to try to break the corners to kind of fix the problem, and it's always just lack of preparation in my experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: And no, what I do when I do the rhombus, it always comes down to lack of preparation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And anytime I see it, I'm just like, well, you weren't prepared.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got you.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, 2025 is coming to an end.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are you looking forward to next?

[SPEAKER_01]: Making scalper.

[SPEAKER_02]: thinking about octagon stuff restoring the 2000 and launching the one-year program.

[SPEAKER_03]: And how can people learn more about CMA?

[SPEAKER_02]: You can follow us on Instagram, even though that seems pretty broken at the moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: if you really want to see our stuff you would probably like isn't there a way you can favor it stuff on instagram i think so i don't know that is part um...

you know algorithms are [SPEAKER_02]: totally bonkers, and we don't invest monetarily in Instagram at the moment, so I feel like all of our content is not getting seen, but you can go to the website, Center for Metal Arts.org, and get on our mailing list, I think, because we're doing a little bit more.

[SPEAKER_02]: Energy towards both physical and digital newsletters, we promise it's not going to be annoying in your inbox, but a more direct way of reaching our community than, you know, Instagram is so indirect at this point, it's just, it's almost seeming like a waste of time in energy, but [SPEAKER_02]: I'd get on the mailing list for the newsletters because we'll be going maybe quarterly or by monthly or something with all the necessary information for participation in our programs of which there's a lot and there's a lot of scholarship opportunities so if you want to learn here and [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's financial restrictions, there's a way to participate.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say get, you know, get on the mailing list and follow us on all the social medias.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just reach out, happy to chat and talk with folks and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So look forward to hearing from everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love the catalogs.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think the catalogs are beautifully made.

[SPEAKER_03]: The pictures are beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love everything about it and I think your website's great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.

[SPEAKER_03]: Guys, here's what I want you to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want you to go into the link and follow Pat Quinn Center for Mental Arts.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want you to follow Pat at [SPEAKER_03]: hand-forging VT when she gets the news letter get involved feel free to send follow full Blast podcast on Instagram sending some forging questions for the next episode of great question with Pat Quinn Pat dude I can't think you enough you really like being an incredibly inspiring and every time I go down I'm always reinvigorated and kind of fired more fired up than I expected to be [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks for coming.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for your your support and look forward to having you back of course and maybe someday come to the conference.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I have to.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's that's that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for thanks for being a part of this community and helping us out man.

[SPEAKER_02]: Really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, I appreciate you guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for listening.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for the support and we will see you next week.

[SPEAKER_03]: Pat you are the man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks buddy