[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.

[SPEAKER_01]: a warm, warm welcome back to their coaches rising podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Earlier this year, I was on retreat and I had the good fortune to meet two Englishmen who really touched my heart actually and had me feel a renewed sense of love for my homeland.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a long time since I've lived in the UK.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I felt deep gratitude for the work that today's guest John O'Rammington Hobbs and his co-founder, Alex Potter.

[SPEAKER_01]: What they're up to in the world, they co-founded Kaizen, which is an organization dedicated to the flourishing of the kind of leadership that's being called for.

[SPEAKER_01]: in our times.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a wide-ranging conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the first time I did a podcast face-to-face, John O'Wizz in my living room, and it's a beautiful experience to do that after doing so many online.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to talk about a wide-ranging amount of topics today.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about what John O'Course, the monastery of materialism.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about the collective heroes journey we're on.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about how we can [SPEAKER_01]: John O and Alex amongst the coaching and integration and healing work they do with leaders.

[SPEAKER_01]: They run rights of passage and they're having incredible success and experiences on these rights of passage.

[SPEAKER_01]: John O will talk about some of their learnings about facilitating these rights of passage and the structures and interventions they [SPEAKER_01]: hold on those journeys.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about the imaginal realm.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll mention many different speakers from in McGill Christie, Peter Levine, John Viveki, James Hillman.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just a few more words about Jono, Jono is a coach himself, he's a meditation teacher, a psychedelic assisted practitioner, and he works at the intersection of optimal psychology and philosophy and neuroscience and ancient wisdom.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as you will hear, he has a brilliant mind which is able to synthesize many different disciplines and perspectives together into a metal model of human transformation.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you are not on our mailing list and you want to join our ever-growing group of transformational coaches who feel called to serve in these times, you can head to coachesrizing.com and you'll find a sign-up box there.

[SPEAKER_01]: That all being said, let's dive in here is the podcast with John O.

Remington Hobbs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, John O.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: True delight to be with you and [SPEAKER_01]: What makes this even more of a stunning experience for me is this is the first time I've ever done a podcast face-to-face.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't really expect to feel the impact of that, but it just hit me and it's hit me in a really beautiful way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel very touched and moved particularly because it's with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: A beautiful, brother, beautiful soul.

[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me today and for being so generous to make space to have a whole day together it feels really special.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really like what you said about the the experience of doing it in person.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like this might be a theme that might run through this conversation today somehow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I'm good, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just love Amsterdam.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love the Netherlands.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's something very light and alive and vital and interesting and material about this place.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to run stepping into...

[SPEAKER_02]: in terms of just yeah those are the feelings I have with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I'm bringing in talk conversation today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's some which we can talk about and maybe this is one of several conversations [SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling strong feeling it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: As we were tuning in before we hit the record button, what I'd love to explore with you today and we'll see where that takes as in particular we don't really know but I'd love to explore [SPEAKER_01]: your work, what inspires your work, so in a sense like we'll talk about your journey and some of the world views that have influenced the work you do, the transmission of work you do with leaders, and then we'll get into like, what are you doing with people?

[SPEAKER_01]: when you're with them, you know, when you're revealing that transformational encounter so to speak and, you know, let me just say firstly that I was like, as we've gotten to know each other over the last months, you know, I've been struck by how resonance our worldviews are of, you know, the type of work that's being invited of, [SPEAKER_01]: practitioners in our times and if human beings as well and these extraordinary times so let me let me let me see where you take this question and you you've mentioned this phrase to me a few times split reality and I wondered if you could say what you mean by that you know and just feel free to kind of speak into everything that comes up around that including your own journey [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so split split reality is um it's the name of a creative project I'm working on a maybe I can come back to that later um but the the the name is carried uh it's I've carried it probably most of my life actually um this sort of feeling from quite an early age of um disatisfaction [SPEAKER_02]: for the monastery of materialism that I was presented as as the world and there was always a sense that I needed to break out of it and that this wasn't quite all of reality in fact.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was a bit of a fracturing somehow of reality and that kind of just felt quite [SPEAKER_02]: It really came up for me a lot of growing up, like A is a child of divorce, like a split reality, got two parents, two different lives, two different families, so that was quite a lived experience that for me as a kid growing up.

[SPEAKER_02]: But also always the scent like the sense of being a teenager and coming into like my first couple of roles in the world was...

[SPEAKER_02]: the social idea that being successful, ending up with a mortgage, and orientating oneself around kind of monetary success for financial safety, for physical safety, right, which is important that that was the only ideal that I should be striving for in my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of very material centric wealthy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of my life has been a wrestle with that experience that there was just a feeling that there's so much more to life and in my early 20s I worked in finance and so I worked as an economist so I got to see [SPEAKER_02]: how the world actually worked in terms of finance and systems and how the commodification of everything from our natural resources to our IP to our lived experiences, you know, creating this, [SPEAKER_02]: a very rational way of being, but also quite a depressed way of being.

[SPEAKER_02]: That if you were to choose to see how does the world really work, I'm just going to look at it through essentially a commodification and a valuation of all experiences into something we can transact with each other, and that was very depressing as a handout, whether well for you for me and so in my early 20s I was [SPEAKER_02]: trying to be successful at the thing I told to be successful at, while spending my weekends exploring the realms of possibility and what lies outside of this world view.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of that was spent in deep nature and vision quests and work with psychedelic medicines and festivals and parties and [SPEAKER_02]: incredible thinkers, anything that was just not inside of this main substrate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I kind of felt like I was a sort of secret seminar going finance growth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I felt like I lived in a split reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of the, the etymology that say of that word for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious where that took you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there was an disenchantment with some of these maybe inherited ideas about what it meant to be successful and live a good life.

[SPEAKER_01]: What did that lead you in terms of what beliefs or worldview came in that felt?

[SPEAKER_01]: that it brought something that those things didn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I come from quite a privileged background, and so I always think that's important to share.

[SPEAKER_02]: So between that and being successful quite early on in my life, in terms of having a good job being well paid for a 21-year-old out of college at that university degree and work as a macro economist and finance, [SPEAKER_02]: And you're being able to sort of do our first property when I was quite young and various other things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Was I found that none of those things satiated the thing that was really dissatisfied.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there was like temporary reprieve to the feeling of this combat.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's can't be everything, but they're never lost in very long and funny enough, the more success from the more I orientated myself towards doing even more within the paradigm coming successful, quote, unquote, in this material pursuit.

[SPEAKER_02]: The more bitter the taste of the sugar started to become.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was living inside the bit of a paradox which was like I was, [SPEAKER_02]: and doing everything that I thought was what was expected, hoped for and wanted from me from my tribe of origin, from my cultural structure.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I was essentially becoming more disenchanted with reality and life as I did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like a...

[SPEAKER_02]: I just always say that I've never been fat or weight or a paler than when I was working in finance.

[SPEAKER_02]: I literally look like a ghost and I always think that's a really wonderful representation of the fact that I just wasn't living in nature, I wasn't spending time in nature.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that I wasn't in body, I wasn't moving, I was in a lot of physical pain at the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was eating, you know, like we all do when we work, just craft food that's kind of provided at the local shops and the cafes around and like it was just a feeling of being deeply unhealthy and unsatisfied and feeling guilty about it because you're so lucky that you got these opportunities and that's what we're all being told that that's what we should be pursuing [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally does, yeah, I mean, it feels like that's also, you know, that's very loud in the world right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: If we look at, we've explored on this podcast a lot, you know, the modernity and what that's privileged and how many aspects of that, you know, like the orientation towards material success or [SPEAKER_01]: growth for all costs, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of the institutions built around that are struggling to cope and knows this meaning crisis.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, did that lead you into a sense of, and I know from our conversations in a way, I know the answer to this question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know you've explored thinkers like in the Gilchrist and John Pavecke and others, where have you landed now in terms of [SPEAKER_01]: what you feel is the world view we're being invited into.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we'll just pause there because I guess I'm always a bit cautious to [SPEAKER_01]: say to define things to reify things that are emergent and unclear, in terms of where are we transitioning to, we don't really know, but I guess I'm in a convoluted way trying to like, where did you land like in terms of what's now important to you and how that informs the work you do?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, over the last 15 years, where I'd say that it was the start of the breakout of the monastery in the journalism for me, and it's been in sort of incremental steps in and out.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a bit of a flow.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's been an incredible event.

[SPEAKER_02]: Charleston 8 African countries for four years.

[SPEAKER_02]: So completely reopen my world view by reinventing myself in a different locality, in a different cultures and different norms and breaking out of that strange jacket was so liberating and leaving some of my more structured Britishness behind for a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, spending a lot of time in deep nature and, you know, whether it's Victoria Falls or just in the middle of the savanna and a lot of time, [SPEAKER_02]: and being in that sort of contemplative place where I was building enough of a developmental base on basically western psychology philosophy intersecting with that right with it with essentially our sciences.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like physics chemistry and biology like what is the fertile intersection between these these these these two bodies of work on why can't they come back together and if they were what would that mean for us?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so that was kind of my late 20s, I was in that kind of, like, let's call it grand exploration in our outer space, um, and when I came back to the UK at 30 to start Kaiser, um, you know, I can see the different phases that we kind of met in my business partner Alex went through and we've kind of developed together, which in such a lovely dance, but [SPEAKER_02]: At the beginning, it was a bit more about ancient wisdom and the esotericism, mixed with performance, and then it started to, and that an a deep love of flow states, you know, I've been fascinated with flow and extreme sports and psychedetic experiences and mystical experiences and what that whole relational arc is.

[SPEAKER_02]: on the one side and then actually come in to the experience of then taking that from the exploration into how do you actually work with people with these states like what does actually mean to be in a guiding relationship where those are actually part and part so whether it be breath work or meditation or vision questing or flow experiences in terms of helping somebody go through a developmental process so instead of the [SPEAKER_02]: My 20s was a radical experimentation from breaking out of the monastery and that included all the burning mans and the fun things that you want to do around the edges of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then my 30s has been really about how to take those peak experiences and the magic from them and then work out how we can [SPEAKER_02]: particularly in the responses you mentioned as well to like the meaning and the metacrosis disease that we all see paying out today as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we spent quite a lot of time understanding as best as we can, what we think the root causes of that hour, and then basically mapping out a series of solutions.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the practitioner and the guidance space that are not just cognitive by definition that they're break beyond what I call a psychotherapeutic or function dysfunction relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: We start to move a bit into a wider realm for a human being essentially.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, and that's a long [SPEAKER_02]: Where do I see us right now, and I think it's an incredibly chirostic period in human history right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have crippling challenges to deal with an unfathomably beautiful opportunities to go and bring to life at the same time, but the world is [SPEAKER_02]: Existentially getting better and worse.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, the world is exponentially getting better and exponentially getting worse at the same time I think that's what makes it so hard for us to orient ourselves in the where we are of the thing and And at the same time It's all of the seems to be an invitation for a cultural right surpassage or the start of the collective heroes journey together [SPEAKER_02]: into something that, by definition, isn't an existence today that we can't know how to get there but the journey creates the destination.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that frame, right, so passage.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know it's a core to the work you do at Kaiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as you spoke about your earlier life with the notions of what it meant to be, to live a good life, to privilege material wealth.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm thinking, my own reflections recently of this kind of journey into, [SPEAKER_01]: The second half of life, I'm really loving James Hollis' work right now, and recognizing some of the most subtle projections of what I imposed on what life would be and what would [SPEAKER_01]: you know, collectively are we in a right of passage, right, you know, humanity right now and what that means for us as transformational practitioners, you know, and curious to explore that with you, what what facets, what do you what do you think is important to weave in into any kind of right of passage?

[SPEAKER_01]: kind of work, you know, what kind of threads of being human are important to include inside of that, what modalities do you think are important to include?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a great question.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, the way that we orientate ourselves to thinking about any body of work with another human being, whether it's one or one, whether it's retreat or whether it's inside of a company is we use something that we call the Four Wisdoms.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the Four Wisdoms, essentially, [SPEAKER_02]: it's not a methodology and it's just to be very very clear about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not something that is algorithmic and process driven that delivers a reliable outcome if you just keep on testing it over and over again.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's that is not what this is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is [SPEAKER_02]: It's a way of orientating oneself into some quite important components of being a human being, and then allowing that orientation to unfold down various pathways and to just to break that down a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for us, the four wisdoms break down into what we call cognitive wisdom, which is for us a journey of illuminating the conscious architecture and the inner landscape and the terrain [SPEAKER_02]: And again, we don't particularly privilege one modality or one type of psychology or mapping or developmental structure over any particularly a type.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that journey of beginning to understand the patterns, the energies, the past, the processes, whatever you want to however, what's to define it and to be able to develop some metacognition around that, which has a stage like awareness where we can start to bring wisdom to our parts.

[SPEAKER_02]: or wisdom to the parts that are suffering from self-deception in some way, shape or form is incredibly valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we always say to a client like once we've got a fairly good idea of the current conscious architecture that you're holding, then it's a lot easier to think about what we might want to do within that structure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because if we haven't mapped that out beforehand, it's less of a space space to play basically.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the author, the cognitive architecture, and then the second thing that we move into is the embodied wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for us, you know, let's call it the history of shamanic work, the history of energetic work.

[SPEAKER_02]: And let's say like the Peter Levine train that sailed so beautifully into the space.

[SPEAKER_02]: What a hero.

[SPEAKER_02]: is so fundamentally important for us, because becoming aware of the intelligence of the body and particularly around its capacity to direct us in life, so to tell us what we should be moving towards and against in a very deep felt sense way, it's just phenomenal, and becoming aware of [SPEAKER_02]: the actual transmission from the body back to the mind about what it's experiencing is also fundamental for when we want to go and locate and orientate ourselves towards tender parts of ourselves, the requires some care and compassion and a transformative journey essentially.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there is no presence without the body, so, you know, that's just a huge thing for us is that we just noticed that very cognitively intelligent, wonderful leaders, you know, come through the door is that they're leaving a ginormous part amount of their processing capacity on the table, because they're not aware that they can actually trust.

[SPEAKER_02]: the intuition which is capable of synthesizing thousands of linear decisions together into one decision is again orientated through the body and the fellow sense it's not a cognitive process and so developing that is really important for us as well and so then that's cognitive into the embodied and then once we're into the embodied in let's say those first two facets are really about relationship to self, so relationship to psyche, relationship to body [SPEAKER_02]: bringing the mobile connection together and creating a holistic functioning structure of which you're navigating that seamlessly rather than having these two quite split aspects of yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we merge down into what we call the relational wisdom, so from relationship with self to relationship with others.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, deeply moved by attachment theory and deeply moved by tantric work.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so dreadfully misunderstood, tantra.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the notions of the masculine, the feminine energies, the primal del, the primal del energies that move and all are in each and every human being on the planet is [SPEAKER_02]: Once we're in a position whereby we know our inner architecture, we're able to see the things that we're able to feel the things that are moving us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then we can start to be present with the people that are triggering us, or the people that we are in relational challenge with, and rather than that becoming a projection of all this stuff I can't own inside of myself that I'm just going to throw around into relational chaos and blame everybody else for.

[SPEAKER_02]: is we can then actually turn this into an incredible learning dojo because everybody suddenly becomes the reflection back to you of where there is room for growth in the golden shadow.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that is everyone that I admire.

[SPEAKER_02]: or everyone that I'm having a challenge in a struggle with, which on every single occasion, the invitation always to me is how am I complicit in creating this environment, or what am I bringing into this that I'm not wanting to take responsibility for, or where am I as much of a prick as I think that other person is just to be quite frank.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that starts to really, really spice things up for clients because then suddenly [SPEAKER_02]: we move from the game of fixing perpetrator rescuer and we become radically 100% the creator of our reality structure and within that we are able to impact everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: Every relationship is open to be in fact in a beautiful way with more love, more transparency, more compassion, more care and in doing that for other people we're actually sending that back to ourselves so it's a relational dance back to self and caring and looking after others but not from a place of [SPEAKER_02]: um, uh, ultrism to the extent of where I can't actually look after myself, um, just to be clear on that particular point.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so that, you know, that lines you up and inside of that right relational dynamics will also explore relationship to nature as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, like, what is your relationship to reality?

[SPEAKER_02]: But if I left you on your own for a day in nature, is that terrifying or isn't it not?

[SPEAKER_02]: And if it is terrifying, that's so weird, because that's where you're born from.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's your heritage, that's where we came from.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's also where all the best neuroscience tells us is our most natural state of being.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, like that's such a wonderful inquiry for us to play through.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we finally arrive at Har with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And...

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the all encompassing part, and yeah, it's completely undefinedable, and what I mean by that is is that for us and the heart was the space, it's, um...

[SPEAKER_02]: in pursuit of living a life of freedom and liberation.

[SPEAKER_02]: So being liberated from the social tribal constraints of who we should be, from breaking free of the defensiveness of our parts that seek to hold us and safety, but not allow us to grow like, beyond those things, who can I become?

[SPEAKER_02]: and becoming a meant in a way of a playful, irrationality because I have no idea how to become the thing that I'm not there for and is ultimately an irrational pursuit or an aspirational pursuit to come something.

[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore that's better suited for my heart, my heart brain than it is for my cognitive brain to be playing that game.

[SPEAKER_02]: we talk a lot about unique self.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what does it mean to me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Powerfully here to do the thing that you came onto this planet to do and to learn was not basically playing this out as an artist or playing this out as somebody who is totally in the game for their own self development but without any kind of consequence or understanding of what their role is in their [SPEAKER_02]: unique self-synthethany of life.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what happens when you have 8 billion souls all playing that symphony at the same time while I imagine it's quite a magical place to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the har wisdom is also where we discover the most wild imaginal capacities as well and creative capacities and it's where the like as the Greeks would say, it's where the aros comes online and it's just [SPEAKER_02]: It's a place from rapid development because the heart knows exactly what it wants.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's wild by definition.

[SPEAKER_02]: It hates constraints that it will move towards it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Once it's clear in the system of what it wants to go but you can't have that access unless cognitively embodied and relationly everything else is fine because it's really hard to operate from the heart of those things aren't in place.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is a developmental arc and fun enough for the bottom.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're not on the bottom in this diagram, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: The coolest thing is that when you actually get to the heart, the heart then cohears everything else naturally anyway.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that you don't have to think about, like what my cognitive, my body and my relational structure is.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the heart just cohears the whole system, but we have to travel through these destination points to recover that that we've lost in our modernity.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because obviously relational awareness, well, that would be very different if you lived in a village or a tribe.

[SPEAKER_02]: in body awareness and very different if you are working from the land by definition and that you were fed by the land and that your entire landscape was nature and then the cognitive wisdom and that's just really undoing.

[SPEAKER_02]: the fact that as human beings today, and this is so radical, but 500 years ago, a human being would consume 500 gigabytes of narrative data in a whole lifetime.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today we consume 74 in one day.

[SPEAKER_02]: So every five days your brain is consuming as much as a whole life's worth a narrative data that somebody else would have used in an entire lifetime.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think about how much that's [SPEAKER_02]: The total potential bandwidth of your attention or your awareness makes so much sense that there is this atrophy in our embodiment.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's this atrophy in our relational dynamics and the heart is definitely not going to get a place to play.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's just this kind of combat, it was.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like being cognitively water-bored by the internet and always love it as John Vivek, he's like this, and then also living in this propositional tyranny as well, which is like the the way to access realness is propositional because that's the thing we value the most.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you say propositional, is that knowing about things?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's in John's model, there's four ways of knowing [SPEAKER_02]: and participatory.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so each has a different functional structure, but perspective of all is to take someone else's position, so I can now have an empathetic embodied feeling sense of where they're at.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're not, we're getting worse at doing that every generation since technology started.

[SPEAKER_02]: Participatory is where I know what to do once I'm in the [SPEAKER_02]: having a way of being together that's been medically built over its development, but at the history of their developmental journey over thousands of thousands of years, but they don't have a set of rules written down.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like, oh, this is how I play the wolf game.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's something that we can discover in our participation with each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then Procedure is like there, I know how to do something because I know [SPEAKER_02]: in doing the things that I need to do that it reliably creates the outcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, the farmer who works with the land, the mother who's with their child, you know, there's a procedure and habituation that comes from it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then propositional is factual knowledge.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, yeah, it's, and it's incredibly useful for getting us to the moon.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's incredibly useful for our incredible trauma-based medicine work and all these other things.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's kind of happened over the last 150 years is that we have so privileged out over the other three ways of being.

[SPEAKER_02]: That isn't actually been reflected now, developmentally, in terms of how we come into contact with reality, which is just ginormous amounts of cognitive reverence for knowledge.

[SPEAKER_02]: propositional.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as it part of the specific perspective or procedural, which you know just break that down they're very much more embodied experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where if you reflect [SPEAKER_02]: the full wisdoms back on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're trying to do is we're trying to bring everybody back into a deeper relationship, those different ways of knowing without privileging any particular one over and over the other.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, anyway, that's the full wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: At least that kind of gives you a sense of what it is that we look to do with people on our guiding journeys.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then bringing them into a right a passage experience, which is normally between three or five days, it's done in a group format, but we do also do it one or one, is we take people through a set of embodied experiences that [SPEAKER_02]: embodied participatory heart-centric experiences that allow you to touch the edge of where your comfortable would be and therefore to grow outside of the constraints of the cognitive self, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what that looks like is whether it's being of a sweat lodge and [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's learning how to do a static dance completely sober as a man in front of 20 other people, whether it's learning to be in a circle and to open up vulnerability or whether it's jumping into ice baths or whether it's going to go and sit on the land for 5 hours on your own with a question to contemplate on.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, all of those things are incredible and then what we do is we let overlay that with what we call all-to-state experiences that can rely on the idea of your language, which is so good, but like loosen the cognitive structures and open conscience us up, you know, we all work with breath work, we're psychedelic medicines, all we just work with deep visioning and fast, deep vision work in nature.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the most important thing is you bring it all together and it feels like a kind of a wild, school trip that you wish you'd ever kind of had in the sense that you're like, you're aware that you're in a peer group and you're kind of doing this whole thing together and togetherness isn't really a feeling that most leaders have much of a sense of any more because part of our programming is the leaders to prove that we can do this all tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's how we prove our leadership qualities.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a beautifully spoken, so in a way what I'm hearing is there's on the one hand there's an expansion of territory of what it means to be human, reclaiming some of these.

[SPEAKER_01]: these wisdoms, these ways of knowing and that we've habituated into one of them and you know the kind of flat propositional I think, knowing about things cognitive, to me it feels like AI is only going to accelerate that in some sense or maybe it all [SPEAKER_01]: actually be the thing that, you know, because it's going to do that much better than we can do it, maybe it will be the final deep invitation into.

[SPEAKER_01]: into the mystical, into these other ways of wisdom.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really fascinating to me, like I'm struck by that intention to an necessity in a sense, if people are to transform of opening, working with those ways of wisdom, those wisdoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm here when you speak about like the right is a passage, so like how do you actually invite people into a kind of into the transformational arena, into the crucible, so to speak, with these wisdoms and with the technologies that open you into them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds really like multifaceted and rich.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to book Mark therefore [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to be a transformational practitioner holding space in these kinds of environments?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I want to just, before we go there, I want to go to like, what, then, because at the start you said it's not algorithmic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's important, I think it's like easy to skip over there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know you said there's often a developmental journey out of the cognitive, but what guides [SPEAKER_01]: the opening of somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that you've got these containers and that in a sense it's just like inviting people to their edge.

[SPEAKER_01]: But as you're holding space for people in this right of passage, what's guiding the way that you hold space and the ways that you [SPEAKER_01]: Does that give you a turn on?

[SPEAKER_02]: It does, yeah, and it's obviously so beautiful to be here in the Netherlands, the place where we do these right-to-passage journeys, so I can really kind of tap into the energy of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we didn't know this when we started, but we were a little bit different to how other people operate, and we just didn't, you don't know when you start, you just do the thing that fills good to you, but we actually have five practitioners for 15 participants, so it's a very deeply [SPEAKER_02]: and everyone has a slight the different set of expertise, but everyone can kind of cover the ground centrally together.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there are two things that that does is one that we made the decision that the modelling for us is that we would walk the journey with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't teach a journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are co-guides inside of the journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: So does that mean you're...

[SPEAKER_02]: you're doing the breath work yourself, even doing the psychedelic, so the way it will work is there will always be a facilitator for the experience, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's always one person who knows I'm holding the container.

[SPEAKER_02]: Supported by the other facilitators, but the other facilitators, like we'll some of them will sit in there with something we'll do the breath works.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the sharing circle we share what's live with us and what we're feeding and experiencing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're not, it's not a therapeutic in the sense of being like [SPEAKER_02]: We're not bringing any of our cells, and we actually went completely the other way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was just a, it was a no-system that we had as a set of practitioners, you know, psychology, as guides, the coaches, therapists, I just, as we kind of came together.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was just felt incredibly clear for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: The part of this was about modeling what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: This lights me up, and I know I just quit you off, but why is that important?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we have myself included three men in the facilitating group and one of them is a Dutch gentleman called Marcel Decker.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a absolutely beautiful man, started off life in the armed forces working in the special boat forces here or whatever, whatever the version is here.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it is now a healer and so when you meet him, he's 55, he's 65, he looks like a 30 year old man and you're just very struck by the awe of the size and the magnitude of him, he looks like a lion.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then within the side of the experience to meet Marcel softness, to meet his tears, to meet his care for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's showing somebody and I'm talking about the masculine dynamic here.

[SPEAKER_02]: but it is showing somebody that it's safe to take off the armor and to reveal the tenderness that's underneath and in fact it's actually something to be aspired to and that you don't have to, you don't become vulnerable in de-armory and that is not something that a lot of men get to see in today's environment and Alex and I try to do our best to replicate that and the fascinating thing about that is that what we've noticed is what we've been told is [SPEAKER_02]: that creates an era of extreme safety for the women.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the women are able to open up more in the group dynamics, so around being, being with men who are going to walk the walk talk the talk and cry the cry really.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then what happens is that the male and the female participant start to almost toggle against each other in a really positive way of growth that takes place through it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like an immigrant Christian says it's so beautifully and I'm not sure he knows but it's one of my favorite things [SPEAKER_02]: There are the limitations of analytic cognitive function is best described by these two examples.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is a fundamental difference between reading the manual for swimming and swimming for the first time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there is a fundamental difference between reading the menu and tasting the food.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that bridging between the conceptual and the actual real requires a modeling which is the way we've always learned.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's no, no, but for a long time before we had words or pictures around a thing the only way you learn was through your elders.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's something about it being a game of integrity where everybody's bringing all themselves into it that feels really important, especially for creating a space of transformation.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is why I feel a little bit up about what you're saying is because it's very touching festival to hear that the men can show up in a way like this that creates safety for the women, safety for everyone modeling.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also for me something about [SPEAKER_01]: I see these practices emerging now where the power dynamic that existed before when I was the therapist and you were the client or the coach and the client which has a certain dynamic to it which can be useful but also has [SPEAKER_01]: a shadow side to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a power differentiation which can be harmful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see practice emerging where the facilitators are participating in that participatory field and it's there.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's through their modeling and participation that there's a frequency that's transmitted and it opens up the space.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what it requires of those practitioners is that it's not that [SPEAKER_01]: you know, identified with their process and you know, going with the flow with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have to kind of hold on, it's like a metavue of holding this space whilst participating.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's an incredible art, but to me it feels part of the leading edge of what's emerging.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what that brings up for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, um, [SPEAKER_02]: I sent the inflation in part of the leading edge, I'm not sure, I would say.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was always good to kind of like, yeah, say that we're at the leading edge.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I won't write myself to that one, especially as it just turned out to be the place that we emerged.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you just said that's so beautifully around.

[SPEAKER_02]: being all in as a practitioner.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know what I am with myself says no heart's left behind.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we don't go to bed until we're done every night and sometimes that means we work, we're doing energy work with people till three o'clock in the morning and we're going to be back up at six.

[SPEAKER_02]: We really do this for five days running and there's not all in human experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in that in that giving to the experience there is a recognition of [SPEAKER_02]: trust on a multiple-led game, trust in the field, and for those that have spent time in transpersonal experiences, the level of intelligence so outweighs my cognitive capacity is a solo practitioner to understand what's going on in the dynamics.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, my brain physically cannot understand the physics of how the magic happens, so like no point in the [SPEAKER_02]: about what we've seen just time and time again, trust on the second layer, which is, that I trust the emergence of the right practitioner to speak at the right time, because we're all playing the game in good faith about following the impulse to lean in or to step back.

[SPEAKER_02]: And trusting that I am held by the other practitioners to show me where there might be shadows showing up, which is inevitable to some level, so rather than trying to [SPEAKER_02]: Sanatized the experience, the level that no shadow can show up and no magic is allowed.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the way I guess we lean in into this too.

[SPEAKER_02]: is to be as open to the relational magic that can happen in a field of potentiality when people are all showing up for the same reason, the co-hearing towards an aspiration.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time being aware that shadow materials there, but it's also rather than being like shadow to harm, is that each one is a gateway or a portal for a deeper understanding in your own practitioner self and also can be really valuable for the client because they can be projecting on you at the same time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you can't hold that on your own, you require other practitioners in the space to be able to see and reflect that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the third layer of trust, just to bring this all the way down, is the trust in the fact that you have chosen the participants.

[SPEAKER_02]: and they are all arriving no matter what the conscious stuff going on is, but like at the level of soul the level of frequency of self is that they're in and they want to play.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, stunning.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because in the old like paradigm, where there was for very specific reasons, a kind of certain, you know, I'm using therapy even though most people listening to this podcast I think on therapists, their coaches, but it's like the practitioner wouldn't reveal themselves, you know, on purpose because of transference, projection, [SPEAKER_01]: They're like a mirror, you know, but I don't want to denigrate that, but when you say about the magic can be lost, you know, like these, in these other spaces I've been in, it's like one recognises that, yeah, that you can actually, it takes like a letting go of that old structure for the magic to really come through, and that they're [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it invites you into a high level of ethics and presence and that, you know, multiple practitioners is helpful for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you don't pathologize in a sense the transfer [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to because it's part of the process and I know it's welcomed in there and me too because that's kind of partly what you're working through.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the note but this is a very feels very different.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and to really beautiful things come to me as we're just talking about this and I don't want to make it a really categorically clear that I'm a massive fan of psychotherapy take ideas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trained in IFS, I'm a student of young, I love attachment theory, I'm interested in evolutionary developmental psychology, so there's no part of me that wants to make wrong that field at all in any sense of the word.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I can notice is that the frequency under which a lot of this has been created is at a time when we have privileged science and scale above other ways of evaluating like the potential or the success of something.

[SPEAKER_02]: And science requires reliably replicating [SPEAKER_02]: the same thing over and over again and being able to get the same outcome, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it becomes a procedural thing, it devoid of possibility in some ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I've just reliably, we can reach there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, that doesn't feel very...

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't feel like it's the sort of way that we should be approaching the psyche, in that sort of empirical monophasic way of evaluating the psyche.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels more like the psyche, it is like art in some ways, and so.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then scale requires that you can do this by just understanding the handbook of what you've read without actually being in contact with the original creator.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what scale really means.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we're just pushing it out.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like whether it's Amazon with the warehouses, whether it's with the new way of doing something, it can we reduce this to such as simple set of axioms or algorithmic constructs that it can be repeatable without us.

[SPEAKER_02]: But reliably, whenever we actually move, there is, we actually dilute the magic.

[SPEAKER_02]: So scale of anything magic like scale.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I say magic, what I just mean is something brimming with mystery and potential and a lot of potency.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily saying magic, because like a fairy tale magic, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the drive from a matrix scale somehow bottlenecks that potentiality for things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: the desire to make psychology very scientific, also, so, so, scientific, and thematic, what it essentially did is it meant that we had to teach the safest version of it because not everybody was going to be around their original trainer and that there's just something that got a little bit lost there and the third point I think is really important as well is the psychology was originally developed.

[SPEAKER_02]: to work with those in dysfunction and now that has been applied across the whole of society because we're recognizing that we're holding a bit of dysfunction but taking the medicine for very dysfunctional and applying it across slightly dysfunctional but having just a weird time this crazy atmosphere that we're living in.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels a little bit dangerous.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not dangerous.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like there's a risk that we just basically bring the mimetic scale pathologizing diagnostic approach to the human being.

[SPEAKER_02]: When some ways you say that the human being is a canvas and a piece of art or a sculpture.

[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore there's a very different way to approaching that development.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is I think tech weighing a little bit as well into you know that bookmark I made around the transformational practitioner which is you know it seems one of well let me say one of the things we've explored is the difference between a self improvement paradigm and [SPEAKER_01]: and an unfolding paradigm and self-improvement, you know, this sense of like there's something I can be better, you know, which is a natural impulse in a sense but it often it says like where you are now is not okay and like you need to get to that place and then you'll be okay there you'll be enough [SPEAKER_01]: you'll be whole.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it creates this tension with our experience and it's ubiquitous if you go on YouTube, it's everywhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to like an unfolding paradigm which is like you're what if you're already whole right now and that you can unfold into deeper depths and richer potential but that can hold inside of it that it's not pathology but there's intelligence, as many teachers [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just wanted to lay that as a kind of little context for, then for you, um, if we talk about magic, you know, it speaks to me of working in emergence, you know, with this get back to the like, it's not algorithm, um, [SPEAKER_01]: And what is it you get when you meet these original teachers of systems?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, it got encoded and systematized, but they weren't always working in that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are dangers to those systems as well as they afford.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, that you can train practitioners.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, I guess my question is like, what, how important is it for you, you know, to work in emergence, you know, to work in a tunement, to what's actually live in the moment?

[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, if I made to respond to this property, I just want to do a little bit of storytelling to like a two different visions, the split reality, if he wanted the world view for human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: And both of these kind of understandings of the human being came about within about 10 years of each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so...

[SPEAKER_02]: On the one hand, you have B.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: Skinner, this is the Godfather of Behaviorism and his work was an in a very simple way and he didn't do Pavlov's dog but basically understanding how you can train responses into a nervous system and you can create compliance basically through a risk and a risk and reward and punishment systems.

[SPEAKER_02]: and his work was obviously picked up quite a lot of empirical traction because it's talking to the part that you can measure, which is the animal, the animal instinct inside of all of us, which is I'll come out later in the second, but let's call it like Israel more reliably systematic and predictable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so he goes and he does all this great work and behaviouralism comes along and the downstream consequences of this is that everybody who's trained and behavioural economics in the last 20 years in the Stanford and the West Coast has been trained in BJ Skinners very depressing well view about human beings essentially being domesticated animals [SPEAKER_02]: that can be controlled by priming certain things in that system and that we can create a utopian society out of doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now on my stomach chance, when I hear this, I want to be sick as I'm talking to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which I imagine is in the AI Silicon Valley as well, to an extent.

[SPEAKER_02]: 100% it's like you've got to remember that something like Instagram, [SPEAKER_02]: is wild, you know, Instagram hired most of the people he went through, you know, they're sorry, Silicon Valley hired most of the people that studied behavioral economics, you then took that straight into UX, U.S., designed in order to create the most psychologically addictive things that we've ever had in our lives, which will call social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they were able to prime each part of the limbic humanoid system, the oldest part of our [SPEAKER_02]: of our sense of belonging and homing ourselves and reality they've copped in and against us in order to basically generate views.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the downstream effect of that is, I mean, it's just everywhere to see you right now, but there are multi-generational mental health crisis that are happening about our relationship to technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: But technology is asymmetric.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not good or it's bad.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's only based on its design function.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the designers have been basically living in BGOS getting as well view of this is what makes us.

[SPEAKER_02]: a safe reliable utopian structure, but if you go back through human history and you look at any culture that's had that impulse, it is the final death-throbable collapse, because you cannot make the world safe through control.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't actually function like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the more we increase the controls, the lower we return to base amulistic reality of ourselves and the chaos breaks loose.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we've just seen this so many times through the cycles of human [SPEAKER_02]: On the left-hand side, he got this wonderful gentleman who, I hope I get his name to her until he was named right today, with his name is Chick Sen Mahali, and he was the godfather of flow, he was in the concentration camps in Germany as a boy, and he found that when he played chess in these places, he forgot that he was in the concentration camp of [SPEAKER_02]: he literally time and space changed, he lost, he just got so in sconstin it, much like we were talking about with Paul Carselli, we were just in the flow of the conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so he came out of that and went and trained in Chicago, I think, and then basically started a lifelong pursuit of looking at the relationship between somebody's like, um, [SPEAKER_02]: erotic pleasure and I don't mean that as in sexual pleasure but as in their desires for deeply meaningful things and their relationship between that and risk and learning and innovation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know fast forward 40 years of his work, [SPEAKER_02]: and you know, flow state training is taught inside of every high-performing team in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Jazz musicians who can create a riff without knowing what they're going to play next or all in collective flow when they're doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know that neurosurgeons doing something that was complicated work and the world are in deep flow when they're playing and when they're working in surgery.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know that it's the place that artists and staff and extreme sport performers go.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we also know it shows up in fast-moving companies where the dynamics are brilliant.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this collective emergent field of potential of possibility, and just to kind of categorize this for the listeners they can understand this is, [SPEAKER_02]: When you are in a normal waking state, consciousness, that's called it just like a low beta wave state.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can process about 120 bits of data per second.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, normally for me to talk to you right now is 60 bits of data.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if I put another person talking to you at the same time, you know, we can't really order two conversations at once.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the crash for our little brains.

[SPEAKER_02]: going to flow states and we can see that the brain is processing billions a bit to data a second.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the magnitudes of all of us so high compared to what the normal waking state are.

[SPEAKER_02]: That [SPEAKER_02]: It's a radical shot, and it's probably one of the few things that we'll be able to compete beautifully with AI and the human being, just for a more poor benchmark that flaster.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in these radical states, like for sniper training and stuff, they train snipers for the Navy ship and for the US Army, [SPEAKER_02]: And those that were trained under the flow state modalities train 500% quicker than their pits.

[SPEAKER_02]: 500% quicker and learning what it takes to become a top performing sniper in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, in Chikmasen, Holly's world view, or he was bringing out, which is like, no, no, this isn't about control.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is about like deeply passion-filled human being to a working in collective coherence with each other for a very inspired outcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: The word magic is used here, but basically performance goes through the roof.

[SPEAKER_02]: Innovation goes through the roof, creativity goes through the roof, togetherness goes through the roof, and those are fundamentally all the things that we need to feel pretty good about our lives, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They feel just like stripping that down into a place of belonging, where I can achieve, where I'm contributing to something novel or creative, and it's deeply interesting to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you break down Mr.

[SPEAKER_02]: Coaching, or therapy at some point that's [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason for just kind of saying this is like, it feels so fundamentally important that we are all made aware of just how much potential resides within us and what a narrow, limit limiting bandwidth or spectrum that we're currently living in versus the full potential of the human being.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, the, [SPEAKER_02]: And we just know from some of our best science today is like the human brain can only see 1% of all light, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we can only take in 1% that means 99% of light is unavailable to us.

[SPEAKER_02]: We also know that the human brain in 99.48% of it is unconscious or subconscious, and to 0.5% is our conscious experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we can basically see the same amount of light that we are that we're conscious too, which is pretty cool if you think about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that other 99% is raw potential for extraordinary things that is reliably activated through a sense of purpose, emotion, and an error towards something, which is incredibly different to BJ Skinner's world view of that we live inside of a mechanistic formal system that we can basically control and prompt, get the outcomes to require for society.

[SPEAKER_02]: See, I think that's a really cool framing to be able to hold for the in terms of the practitioner space, what we think we should be moving towards in a way from essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: So does that mean when you're guiding these rights of passage?

[SPEAKER_01]: do you find that you access flow states or altered states and start to access what feels like a greater potential?

[SPEAKER_01]: And if so, how does that show up as you're guiding the participants?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you start to kind of tune into revelations or perceptions that can [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, from, like, so from a practitioner's perspective, you know, if you think that you can only consume 120 bits a day to a second, you're normal weightings day consciousness, and then you can be up a billions of bits per second.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're just talking about like opening the spectrum of what you can receive inside of your system.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, a practitioner that is in the field that is present enough to be in the emergence of it that is somatically trained, energetically sensitive, emotion-iest, you cognitively aware with an open heart means that there are just so many more things to pick up on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not like you're racing them down, each one, all like, she moved there or there, it's like, no, you're just gathering this data in real time.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the game of talking from the heart like what could be a 20-minute conversation is reduced to the one sentence that person needs to hear back from me because you can get the essence of it which is feels so important and then trusting and trusting that there is nothing to reject from the group experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: means that everything is welcome, but you have no idea what somebody being, maybe somebody's difficult on day one and having a real struggle with the breath work and the music and you don't realise but then on day five that's the crowning experience that brings everything together for everybody for all the experience and you just at the time, you [SPEAKER_02]: in a limited frame you would be like that's a problem and I'm diagnosing it and I'm moving it and I'm telling them that they're right or wrong or it's not working for our experience but in the game of pure emergence it's like it will inevitably come full circle in some sort of way that's usually beneficial if it can be held and welcomed as [SPEAKER_02]: nothing is not divine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, I think, important to underline.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so as practitioners we're, and I think this can be said of one on one work, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, um, [SPEAKER_01]: Everything is welcomed in the sense that it's part of this unfolding and, you know, some practitioners I see and especially I think in groups, it's an edge that isn't it, because if you are particularly if you're facilitating a group, [SPEAKER_01]: and you're maybe you want, you're invested in, you know, it going well and people have paid money and then you want an outcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you get caught in subtle and not so subtle ways about going through a process, you know, so then you can start to make it algorithmical.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like there's an initiation that takes place with practitioners where [SPEAKER_01]: So, surrender to everything that arises, and it doesn't, it's not the same thing as, like, whatever, nothing's got any kind of differentiation and depth of meaning and truth, that everything goes, you know, whatever, it's not that, it's like, there's still an orientation to the emergence of truth, beauty and goodness, but that, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're not, you're not kind of compartmentalizing.

[SPEAKER_01]: or reacting to things that write.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I just love the initiation of the practitioner just that I was such a beautiful language.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not sure I'm the person to decide what that is or who should do it or whether I'm capable of answering that question, or whether I'm still being initiated myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what feels true is [SPEAKER_02]: On the practitioner journey arc is that we come into the idea of being a practitioner through a cognitive process, through the developmental structures and through the ways of doing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We then set that out into a five day experience, so we sort of lay out the map of how it's going to play.

[SPEAKER_02]: in an inevitably nothing quite works the way you think it's going to because you move into liminal time, then more time has deep senses of loss of time that occur all over the program.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say, and nothing really is controllable, containerable into its structures, like in the way that you would.

[SPEAKER_02]: In a way, an accountant would probably let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, of course, every time that you come into that contact point where it's not going, the way you thought it would, or there is something that is moving in a different direction, is all you're coming up, all you're coming into contact with is the part of you that don't feel safe yet in the margins.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, oh, okay, what are you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so what are you concerned about?

[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, I'm really worried about what they're going to say because I know they're best friends, or whatever, or a viral, you know, it's gone a bit weird, or it's gone a bit wrong, or there's that, the other, and it's like, you just sort of pick up that was really going on, is it, or it's your tribally-orientated sensitive self who just wants this to be like a sort of a perfect experience, so they can get the grades that they get at the end of the school year to pass to qualified to move on, and yet life doesn't really work like [SPEAKER_02]: They're the thing that feels very true to me is that when you meet those moments where you're like, I'm triggered, I'm charged, or this isn't going the way I want.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I get, I got four other practitioners, who should I go and talk to for 10 minutes?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I find the part?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I bring them to it?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I go see the other perspective and bring myself back into care here?

[SPEAKER_02]: And like that's the journey of presence and mastery is it's not to not have those experiences, it's the speed that you can It's not even to move through them because that even sounds like it's like a performative, but it's the speed onto which you can catch the part of the nervous system that's dysregulated And like bringing the higher order awareness and the felt sense compassionate at the same time to kind of clap yourself back into the present again And [SPEAKER_02]: And that seems like a much better technology to be teaching people rather than the idea of sanitised, sanitised ways of doing things that avoid potential mistakes, but they're so rigid that they actually box in the participants and themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: So do you think?

[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, you know, there's a kind of metacompatency there and of being able to attune to kind of remain to sit in a spacious attuned way and [SPEAKER_01]: to recognize when one is becoming contracted, you know, treat triggered in some way, and then there's, yeah, you know, be in aware of that, like not trying to say, oh, no, that's happening, but welcoming that in, and as one welcomes that in, the heat inside of it may begin to, it relaxes and unfolds.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a kind of meta competency of acknowledging [SPEAKER_01]: letting things be and letting them unfold, and it's not, you have to be careful, it's not suddenly that's the imposition on our experience, it's more of a kind of sensibility, so to speak.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautifully said, especially around the sensibility piece.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you speak to people who've done a lot of retreat work, they're telling that no two retreats have ever been the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and like, ever, like, there's some of the felt similar, but I literally, they cannot identify two retreats that are the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's just such a fascinating thing to think about when we want to try and attach a structure to an experience, but yeah, each one.

[SPEAKER_02]: is as unique as the fingerprints on the participants coming through the door, and so the game of entering a right of passage is that there is an acknowledgement that you're entering a liminal space, and a liminal space means that it's an in-between time where normal rules don't exist, where there's an opportunity for you to [SPEAKER_02]: play into different potential roles or beings or becoming that you want to become and that it's safe enough for you to let out all the parts that you've talked to, you know, there's too much for you to show that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's two dangerous for you to already open the box and fall apart like all of that comes into the container.

[SPEAKER_02]: Inside of that, there is no algorithmic way out of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the place for the practitioner is to be able to hold that this is an incredibly natural place for us to be as human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the most natural place, way more natural than our sanitized way of being with each other in these kind of professional, performative ways of being where we don't really touch each other, but just clink the armour gently as we cross each other as we pass each other on the corridor.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's a sense that it is an irrational act of play and becoming but irrational is not dangerous like we've been taught at this.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it is incredibly potent if we allow for the parts of us that we don't yet have the understanding of all the parts that it's called at the higher wisdom parts of us to come online and to start to work with the...

[SPEAKER_02]: some of the winded parts of our infrastructures from our developmental growth processes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that is beautiful segue into what I did want to ask you about, which is, you know, the markers of like going through a right of passage, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in a sense, we're saying like, there's no, you let it go.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's never, no retreats are over the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that there's certain conditions there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you do see certain patterns occurring.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, people can experiment with.

[SPEAKER_01]: new ways of being, but they're also going to encounter, you know, parts of them that are, you know, ready to be met in a sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: So is that, yeah, is that like commonly, what are some of the, the kind of important milestones within a, [SPEAKER_01]: within a riot passing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah brilliant.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just a little clarifying point just for the listeners is when I said no retreat is the same as what I mean is that no retreat feels the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't mean the experiences, the actual and body of experiences aren't the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just means that when 15 hearts open for five days you're not going to get the same experience because the alchemy of the group is always going to be different.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to relate to things differently.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to move [SPEAKER_02]: to just let that clarifying point there, and then for, like, so for write a passage, I think it's so cool just to kind of offer a couple of frames that like can really blow open like our perception of what this is.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like a write a passage is a psychotechnology that's reliably been used by indigenous cultures throughout human history and unbroken transmissions from the beginning of time as far as we understand today where they're still done.

[SPEAKER_02]: but they're also incredibly important right to passages that we've had in our own lives, you know, like whether it's in our own slow, Western culture, whether it was the illusion mysteries, where for 1750 years the brightest and the best of Greece and of Rome from Cicero to Marx or Relius to Plato to Aristotle to Pythagoras all went to the mysteries and took five days to go through a right-up passage experience which if you then go and read [SPEAKER_02]: You know, some of the language, you know, Cicero said, of all the things the Greeks invented and paraphrasing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: All the things that the Greeks invented, bit democracy or philosophy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing is more nothing at all is the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing is more important than the illusion of mysteries.

[SPEAKER_02]: They quite literally hold the world together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about, you know, the dark retreats or, you know, Peter Kinglefleys work around, you know, a lot of this architecture of Western civilization was, you know, kind of emerged out of these more mystical, and maybe because I've just kind of jumped over two ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll just, like, [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to come back to write a passage and I just talked to that very quickly and then we'll go on to enjanting our history.

[SPEAKER_02]: So a write of passage experience is to find by three phases stepping like the acknowledgement that you're going to start the write a passage.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in the moment that you sign up, let's say, you actually start to enter into a relationship with this write a passage and a lot of people say the medicine starts to work, start working as soon as you start playing with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is the kind of the build up to then stepping into the liminal space, the liminal spaces, as I said, is the space where normal rules don't apply, you can test out parts to yourself that you wouldn't normally feel comfortable with, you can break down to the deeper recesses where you're being and you can also dream a bit more about what you want to become.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a magical place where there is a deep sense of flow and participation and very antithetical to our kind of life experiences today and it's underpin by being held [SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got the return, which is where you take the right of passions experience and you bring it back to your village, you bring it back to your community and you want to try and offer the boon, not as a self-revelation of one's new superpowers, but how can I use these to serve the community that I live in?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's how you would structure a right of passage experience and what [SPEAKER_02]: What feels kind of cool just to kind of share a little bit around this, as I said, like the indigenous line and the history that we've been working with these, but there's just such a wonderful story, which is there as a anthropologist called Antoine von, I want to say turd, but it's not, I have to remember his name.

[SPEAKER_02]: And anyway, he went off to see a right-of-passage experience in Africa and wrote about it and essentially a group of 13 to 15-year-old boys all trained together for a period of months before they then go on the right-of-passage experience and their segmentes and segregated from their families.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the boys all taken from the home away from their mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: then put into a separate community, they train together, they go and have the experience, and they come back, and it said that they now co-heat the vision and the competency required to carry their community into the next generation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, this anthropologist, when I saw this and not all the boys came back from this road passage experience, [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, he said to the chief, like, how can you do this?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is so bite is in the day.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: They die, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is so barbaric, you know, dud, dud, dud, dud, you know, like we would never do this in the West.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he just replied very simply, so none of our boys commit suicide and none of them suffer from addiction.

[SPEAKER_02]: So who's barbaric now?

[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, and I'm not actually privileging one over there.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's not a right or a wrong game here.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a truth in the middle that there is something important about helping someone developmentally go through a series of structures that help them develop from being a boy, into a man, to know what a man actually means to have that coherently structured to their community, [SPEAKER_02]: and then to be able to consistently return back to these places of transformation as they need to over their lifetime in order to see clearly about who they're supposed to be on this planet.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that for me is gorgeous.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not suggesting that includes life or death situations.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like that's a gorgeous idea that is greatly missing in the Western world.

[SPEAKER_02]: and particularly for boys and for men at the moment, and Aristotle's, sorry, Plato, was famous for saying, a boy is to a man as a man as to a sage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, James Hillman and a number are very good thinkers have rightly said that our current Western psyche is that of a teenage boy.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are not matrating through to sage.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, we don't even know where sage is always to come from in our culture anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've privileged intellect, knowledge and entrepreneurial power dynamics is being the sort of their central thing that we need to be as a man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find, therefore, on your rights of passage that that is a common milestone, in a sense, you know, whilst people may not literally, they're not literally dying, but there is an encounter with the death of [SPEAKER_01]: of what was what's ready to die and then, you know, like the old way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if that's the case, how, how is it you get to that place?

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: be what do you do when you get there?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so a beautiful question and this kind of ties to the Illusion Mysteries, which was this five-day experience that whether you were a King or a slave, you could take in that in the ancient world around for 1750 years and reliably had 20,000 people at most a year coming through this thing and it was a harvest festival.

[SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, it contained all of the elements which was a feast before you set sail from from Athens, a feast the night beforehand with a good party.

[SPEAKER_02]: You would then walk for 20 miles to get to elusive.

[SPEAKER_02]: You would go to two different bays where you'd wash and you'd purify.

[SPEAKER_02]: You would arrive at Alusus, which is a temple site, and then for the next three days something happened in that room, in that temple space that was so powerful, that Cistro said it was the most beautiful thing that the Greeks ever invented.

[SPEAKER_02]: And most of the other great thinkers will talk about it being a definitive moment in coming into contact with life with God, with existence.

[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: to dump you what they're doing, so what were they doing?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so whilst we, one of the things about the ritual is that if you ever told anyone who wasn't an initiator, you could be killed by other initiators.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's the most secret of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know nothing about really what happened inside.

[SPEAKER_02]: but we know there's three things, one that you drink, something called the Cucillon, which is the name of the potion.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was made with barley.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know that growing off barley is a fungus called Urgot and Urgot is basically LSD.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's highly likely that they're taking LSD.

[SPEAKER_02]: Secondly, we know that they were working with theatre and the dance and the mysteries.

[SPEAKER_02]: and like the whole story is really around Persephonia and Demeter which is the fertility goddess and her daughter who was stones, the underworld, who has to be repatriated.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the whole thing was a death rebirth cycle about the whole world and about you personally and written on top of the doors of elucis and I always butcher the Greeks.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope we don't have great listeners who are going to kill me on this one.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's something like end botanists, end botanists, end botanists, [SPEAKER_02]: which means if you die before you die, you never truly die.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is just, you go through all the cultures and you're gonna find this language somewhere written there, which is that learning how to psychologically die is not the same as learning how to have a human death, but a psychological death means that I'm having to let go of a par or a way of being inside of me to make room for the becoming of what comes next.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, as we were talking to these developmental cycles on these rights, the developmental cycles that all humans go through.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the Vedic traditions would say, first, I seek pleasure, and then once I've mastered pleasure, I then seek conformity and power.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I had to be successful in my community, and to be, yeah, I had to be a successful human in my community structure, and then I move from the material gain of that success and power [SPEAKER_02]: and how do I become a community man when a leader of my people and then when you've done that, you finally go onto the great final walk to become nobody and the full life cycle.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's like a 3000-year-old conceptualization.

[SPEAKER_02]: Play to his point of mind to say, just another version of that, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in order to go through these like large changes of who we are, [SPEAKER_02]: There is a partial death and there is a partial birth that has to take place in all of the structures to move.

[SPEAKER_02]: Death sounds very aggressive when we say it like this, but this is as simple as IFS and part work.

[SPEAKER_02]: This doesn't need to be some ginormous change in one's life.

[SPEAKER_02]: In order to acknowledge that we are ready for our next developmental journey, it means some old dreams have to die, and those old dreams are connected to parts that really want to those dreams to happen to fulfill a void that sits inside of them, so they're not going to be happy with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, you want to deal with the part of you that doesn't need to orientate with the mystery, the unknown and the art of becoming, which is inherently a leap of faith by definition, and something that we have to [SPEAKER_02]: We play it and it's called Sirius players, the technical definition, but we play it at the fringes for long enough that we got enough data that we can finally make the move to become the next thing that we want to become.

[SPEAKER_02]: So these right-up passage experiences are where we get to do that Sirius play.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's where we get to go through the tending to the parts that want to reintegrate or be let go and start to breathe like life into the heart vision.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what am I really here for?

[SPEAKER_02]: who am I when I strip away the responsibilities that I think have been placed upon me by others, but I'm pretty sure they're somehow my own projections.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what does [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, it's a radical idea for human beings today, but like, what does it mean to live a life that is free and responsible?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, my sacred responsibilities, like feeding my child at one o'clock in the morning or doing my child's homework at five in the afternoon, or not going to have fun with my friends because I'm going to take my daughter to ballet or where any of the many things write sacred responsibilities beautiful, but then I living with the actual radical freedom to become like a sacred artist.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, to become somebody who just wants to leave.

[SPEAKER_02]: some of the sort of attitude to express the deepest yearnings of their heart and put it into the world and into communities and feel a deep sense of belonging in the home and connection which fundamentally makes reality feel more real to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a high aspirations to chase for in this modern age of unbelievable, but an out-exhaustion cognitive kindness, and everything else that goes on for leaders of today.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I know that for every single leader I know that there's a way home to do that and the prison for them is always the same as just another version of the monastery materialism in the sense that it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: the parts of them that feel that they need to be that version of themselves in order to just feel good enough about themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you work with that part around how it feels about itself, how it's loved and valued irrespective of its performative architecture, [SPEAKER_02]: and how they they'd already need to perform to be in a community or the lead, the community that they're in the company.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then that radically can shift and transform and then it's not about existential survivors, the leader.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about actually like how to live with liberation and joy and enjoy the work that you're doing as much as you can and push it as far as you can.

[SPEAKER_02]: But ultimately just now it's a company.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there are plenty of opportunities outside of the one that we're currently in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas at the moment for a lot of people, it feels like it's existential life and death.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's the experience that people are having around the speed of transformation in business at the moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they literally feel that there is a life and death experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the only part that needs the performative role in order to validate itself in order to feel loved and worthy in a community structure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if they just knew that they were loved and worthy in a community structure, they can have rights or passes journeys, get to know themselves, take off their arm, and do all of that, then you just come back into your work, and you bring a different relational being to yourself, that's been more heart-centric, and the speed of which that filter through a company is extraordinary.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is like a, uh, it is a highly contagious virus of freedom that can, can, can, can, can run through, but it has to start top down.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, so, uh, I'm hearing, in a sense, probably the people that feel cold to come on a riot passage, you're already, [SPEAKER_01]: feeling the suffering that comes with recognizing that, yeah, some of those projections they had about what would bring fulfillment meaning, you know, they just didn't turn out the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: that they expected.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they already come in with that kind of burning.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I imagine on the right of passage, you know, you can spend some time having people speak to that, speak to that sense of, um, [SPEAKER_01]: What's the longing inside of them?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where is there a sense of a hole or something?

[SPEAKER_01]: Something that's not in flow and then and then through breath work or psychedelics, maybe there's a that is a kind of, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Is that, is that a kind of crucible?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a point?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's a high point of like the transition perhaps.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's, um, so there's two things that we should call just a share.

[SPEAKER_02]: One, like we run right surpassage experiences, but everybody is going through right surpassage in that life.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like it's a frame for an experience, but also a frame for life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what?

[SPEAKER_02]: The way that we kind of frame this is that we offer people to experience two narrative arcs.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have what we call the hero's journey, which has a reliable structure of, in my normal waking normal life, I start to hear the calling for something different, something new, something beyond, I resist the calling.

[SPEAKER_02]: A wise teacher comes along, asks me to go on the adventure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I reject the adventure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Find a way to go on the adventure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Go through a number of series of challenges and obstacles to finally get to the cave where the dragon is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in some niche, I have to slay the dragon and pick up the sword.

[SPEAKER_02]: I prefer to love the dragon, he gives me the sword, but either one works, and then to basically to then trek back from that cave through a series of more adventures to arrive, finally arrive home and to bring your boon of your gifts back to your village and to your people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's let's call it, that's the hero's journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: The heroine's journey is very different.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is where you are walking along and everything's fine and then one day you drop into existential hell.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your partner decides to leave you, you get fired from your job.

[SPEAKER_02]: You find out you've got a growth behind your knee and your mum falls down the stairs.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're just like this, this is all just happening six months.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if I look at my entire life, I'm not that in 30 years.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now I've got this in this tiny window.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to...

[SPEAKER_02]: is going on here, and so that's going to very different art, which is like I'm just thrown into the unknown and to the chaos, and I'm being asked to rapidly resolve things in order to get myself back to the village.

[SPEAKER_02]: And those are really useful kind of frames for people, because they can self-identify where they're at in the experience in terms of why you hear, but you can also slightly use that for where you are in your life, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so being able to basically take that and to help somebody go like, right, I write a passage means that we have to get radically clear about what, you know, three things really, it's like, this is called a three component parts, which is, [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, there's being, can we bring you in turn off presence that you can speak the truth of the heart?

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be the thing that needs to be said.

[SPEAKER_02]: And over time through the group dynamics, can you reveal more until you're eventually ready to realise that it's actually much easier to live life without a 50 kg breastplate of armour on you and just open up?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's like, that's like cool, let's get to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then once we're into it, right, this is what I'm working on, then through a series of psychotechnologies be it like the sweat lodge, the ice baths, the cold swimming, the suners, the conversations, the dinners, [SPEAKER_02]: then you're just in this journey where just things are moving in your revelations are coming and they're free flowing and it doesn't need to don't quite know where it's coming from but you're all, you know, this is all just filtering in about what you're learning about yourself and then the experience is provided some like catalytic transformative energy so like a big breath work for example, wow, I just went back to being a seven-year-old and I just remembered that this is why I hated public speaking because of what my dad said or I've just realised why I've got commitment issues [SPEAKER_02]: You know, any, any of the thousand things that people can realise on retreat, and then the final thing is is then how do we bring that into into becoming?

[SPEAKER_02]: So you've got sort of, you've got the being bit, which is presence, you've got the unwinding, which is the psychotechnologies for letting go of some of the emotional residue trauma and static in the system.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got becoming, which is the irrational art of discovering what is most on your heart.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm most make you feel like you're living a life of radical freedom and liberation.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my experience with these journeys previously, that is often [SPEAKER_01]: symbolic or it can come through a rational, it can come through rational channel, so to speak, but those intimations, those messages or revelations of, you know, I will use the word in Solman, you know, then can come in, you know, felt sense or image symbols [SPEAKER_01]: It's more about being in service than, you know, I think you said this really then like, you know, I've got a suddenly this new superpower that like is for me to be, you know, be more successful in the old game.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, does that define the same thing there that, like, there's a journey of like people needing to unfold or relate to those revelations so that they can become more manifested in that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's such a great question, and this is where, like, being on a bring the Colx Eye and the therapeutic understanding into a right-up acid and bring them together, it's just so powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, like, what you know, starting with, kind of, let's say, starting with the neuroscience is we have become aware thanks to the research to psychedelics and other rules of states of consciousness that [SPEAKER_02]: It's then actually one of the things they do is they seem to open windows of neuroplasticity and neuroplasticity is where I become quite amenable to changing personality traits and types, ways of thinking, ways of being big.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's almost like somebody is taking your rigid internal wiring and said, well, what happens if we just turn this all into rubber?

[SPEAKER_02]: They're just like, but anything can kind of happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it can move in any direction.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, a lot of the empirical sciences basically say, we don't know how long the window stays open for us at two weeks, there's an eight weeks above, above, above, above, above, above, above, but what they've slightly missed out on is that neuroplasticity is a way of, and this is my view.

[SPEAKER_02]: is if I bring the right practices, the right processes, and the right presence into my life, then I am essentially in a neoplastic window, because I'm amenable to being able to have the right attention, the awareness, to the metacognitions required to elevate the parts of me that require more wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: So same saying, but like this is a different way that these things are approached.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the second thing is when you come out of an experience there are two things that I can kind of guarantee every time is one that at the beginning the group doesn't want to ever leave each other and they'll miss each other every day and the other thing is after about three weeks that the holiday message will be sent into the same WhatsApp group.

[SPEAKER_02]: and that's not some slight on anybody that's more to say that the field of the connection and the field of being seen and being able to share like I've just been with the symbol of the Phoenix for last three days and you know why that means lots of my experience because I saw this and the medicine journey on the breath work journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so beautiful and you feel very like I've got to not crazy if I'm able to talk, I could type a little symbolically with my co-haul.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I can't discuss that to anyone outside of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because they're just like, oh, he's got a dumb breath work me seeing a bird, great, congratulations.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what you're kind of tracking through the processes that the further away from the experience you get, the synchristis generally lessened and the connection, the group lessened simultaneously.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the job for us is to hold a container where you can continue to come in and reflect and integrate because the changes that we would hope for somebody don't happen in the experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: They happen after the experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: and Houston Smith had this lovely, lovely question which is, how do we turn the abiding lives and how can I express that?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do we turn a mystical peak experience into a transformative, sustainable human change?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that requires being with the symbology of change, which is more of the irrational and the right hemisphere's way of talking to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like that you say we're all going through riots or passages because it's both and isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like both we can benefit from these intentional moments where we go away from our lives and to nature and these potent containers.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if that's the only place it can happen, it feels like it misses out that [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like most people can relate to what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're all going through our rights of passage and that there's a way that we can democratize this process as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's like the thing with Bill Plotkin who's work I love, [SPEAKER_01]: But what I found a bit challenging is that sometimes he made it, he made like this, you know, that we would only ever have a soul encounter.

[SPEAKER_01]: If we were like, you know, in the deeper steps of nature, in the most deepest depths of our hearts, longing, and, you know, we'd primed ourselves for months.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if we were lucky, we would have this soul encounter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's beautiful to put such a...

[SPEAKER_01]: high bar on that is beautiful in the way that we don't, you know, cheap and the commitment that someone can make to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm slightly exaggerating, you know, didn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: But on your hand, for me, it seems like soul encounters surely, you know, in any moment in our lives.

[SPEAKER_01]: we can open to a soul encounter, so we want to have both and, you know, so I slightly lost where I was going with this bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just because Alex would, he would tell me that I'm missing an opportunity to talk about one of his favorite things.

[SPEAKER_02]: which was we had a really similar experience of running these rights or pastries experiences thinking they're incredible, but they're five days.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're not for profits, they're not expensive, but they still somehow exclude some people by definition rights.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they're excluded by the fact that they're five days, some people can't take five days off, they're excluded by the price point, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and various different things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what we kind of realized after running them for a couple of years is that we wanted to bring the retreat time.

[SPEAKER_02]: it's like all well and good having this beautiful way to be for five days together and this kind of a theeric sort of neather world but like what have like why can't we bring this feeling back into our cultures, back into our communities and back into our spaces.

[SPEAKER_02]: And with that inquiry, what came through from conversations, that it's quite quickly, was that in days gone by, you had a measurable amounts of boredom, because you lived within 20 miles.

[SPEAKER_02]: You never went from left to more than 20 miles at the land that you were on 200 years ago, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's just, that was it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your 20 miles expanse was pretty much your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: and you didn't have any of the technology we currently have.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you'd have paired long periods of what Bill Pockens referring to as time to be with the soul.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yet they were still, you know, the, like the Pythagorases and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, [SPEAKER_02]: the right of passage is in the mortgage payment.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is in meeting the angry person on the street.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is in coming into contact with the guys to screw your deal up and selfishly for his own benefit and screwed you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Each and every moment where the nervous system dances into triggering stimulation is another right of passage for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is just like we kind of, it's a radical idea that every moment is a day of profound soul growth if you want to play for that place.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm aware my family might come back any moment so doing this live podcast in my living room.

[SPEAKER_01]: It like comes back into my awareness of the sun, so I'm aware that two things where one is there are certain frames we can hold, which will be quite psychoactive in that sense, you know, if we can [SPEAKER_01]: See everything as an invitation into our expansion or transformation or installment, you know, in that sense, it's a feature, not a bug, of our experience, that we have mortgage payments and frustrating experiences.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that's alive for me right now, is so easy to kind of label them as bugs, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: I funny that wasn't there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if they're the features that allow us to mature, holding that frame feels really powerful, and the other one is like, I think it's kind of like going back to what you were saying, which is like, if we can expand the bandwidth of, [SPEAKER_01]: the range of our day to day experience so that we re-enchant our world and we re-capture the imaginal, I mean re-captures not, you know, like we, that's something we haven't talked about that I think we could for a long time, but for me the imaginal is, [SPEAKER_01]: such an untapped resource that I've found profound in my on-enfoldment over the last few years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Having psychedelic peak experiences without ingesting anything, peak life experiences, deeply moving.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can educate ourselves and bring in these kinds of rituals and practices that then keep that plasticity alive, [SPEAKER_01]: keep us in relationship with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That feels like that would be a beautiful thing for us to have.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder what a life for you as we kind of bring this part of our conversation, part one, and Amsterdam, when is it 10th of September today?

[SPEAKER_01]: To a close, what's life for you, what do you want to share?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the imaginal, I just want to talk to one thing that I just think is so fantastic.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the difference between imagination and fantasy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Fantasy has no correlation to my life and is an escape for my current reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: Imagination is building what I can't see in front of me right now into my reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, like that, Imaginal space is like the place of construction that's the place of form and it's the place of potential.

[SPEAKER_02]: and we've conflated it with fantasy and our culture lives on fantasy and we live on ways to escape our own reality rather than build our futures inside of our imaginal realms.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I am totally agreement with you that the imaginal is the greatest gift that we can return back to humanity and it is the place that we set ourselves free from.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we can go into a lot more conversation [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing is my beautiful friend, Dr.

McKenzie Amara, who's a union psychologist, Psychedelics, that was Psychedelic Therapist's trauma reformed with him stance and one of the coolest people in the planet you should definitely speak to.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's just written her Ph.D.

on how the dream stayed in the psychedelics, the space is one in the same, in the imaginal realm, and you know, which is a Jungian idea, but Jungian idea was psychedelics, but we all know where he went and the Red Book, which was pretty psychedelic.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that feels like a very important part of breaking out of the monastery of materialism is coming into contact with the death of that experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: and starting to learn how to correspond between the things that I draw in in that space and things that happen in my reality and his Robert Grant says that we live in a U inverse and the reality is mirroring and reflecting the conditions that we require for optimal growth and most periods of time without exception as far as I can see.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted to cap that off and [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a feeling piece to bring this into, so I'm sort of a conclusion from my side.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and what strikes me is, um, [SPEAKER_02]: What strikes me is that a lot of the conversation today was about really an inquiry into what does the multidisciplinary transpersonal, transparametric, multimodular practitioner look like, that's been a bit of an inquiry that we've been genuinely tapping through the edges of.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the frames I want to bring in is what does an interdisciplinary team of practitioners who each one can index from one of the four wisdoms as they're preferred, mother tongue for how they engage with reality be, but they can actually bring all four in together.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what does it look like when your team of practitioners includes the cognitive wizards, the somatic, um, savants, um, [SPEAKER_02]: the heart shamans and the noble philosophers and the scientists what happens when they all sit in the round table and can guide groups and humans and individuals together and maybe part of the over specialisation process that we've been in the west for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: leads us to a place of potentially having to come back into those like multi-modular like interdisciplinary teams in order to actually provide the thing that we've been talking to, then it's maybe it's not a one-man-band thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels true to me at the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, front of my news, like coaching, high-level executives, [SPEAKER_01]: that's where he sees coaching going in the future is, you know, multi-disciplinary teams that can respond, you know, with these different skill sets in the moment to what's most needed, yeah, boutique, the boutique experience.

[UNKNOWN]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so Rich, John, I just want to thank you and also invite where we can find out more about your work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anywhere you want to direct us?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I will just share it in the notes underneath, but we have a website and a LinkedIn page, and come and find us if you're interested in learning out more, and we'd love to hear from you.

[SPEAKER_02]: and what's the website?

[SPEAKER_02]: The website is www.kyzmk.iz and.co and we're kizm on LinkedIn as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I just wanted to take a chance to say thank you very much for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's been an amazing conversation and I'm aware I spoke for quite a long time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm looking forward to being more of a dialogical approach next time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here we are, we're at the end of the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just a heads up again, if you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coachesrising.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: Put your name in the sign-up box there.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just want to end by wishing you well, and I'll see you again next time.