Hey, it's your boy, Sam Jones.

The third.

I played Pete Ross on the show Small Villa.

And you're listening to Always hold on to Smallville.

Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville.

In this podcast, we've talked about each and every episode of the Young Superman Show, then ran from two thousand and one to twenty eleven on the WB and the CW.

Unless we don't, we're back for another Superman special, number forty five, James gunn Superman Part three.

Yes, we're talking about James Gun Superman again and I am joined by Matthew Roca.

Hello, Hello everybody, and Luke Deckard.

Hello.

As of this recording, James Gun Superman has dropped on streaming this weekend.

It's an exciting time.

Everybody who didn't go and see it in the theaters maybe can see it at home now.

If you saw it once or twice, you want to see it again, you can revisit it if you wanted to, maybe reevaluate it in your in your home environment from what you thought about the theater environment.

So it's out there.

It's always so straight, you know what.

I felt old the first time a lot many times, but when I was sitting I believe.

I believe.

I was in Philadelphia and I was in a was it a Chili's or Fridays and I looked on the TV and they had The Force Awakens playing.

I was like, Wow, these are you know, movies that you look forward to coming out your whole life that are just on a TV in a random restaurant.

I don't know, to me, that makes me feel old.

I don't know about you guys.

Yeah, yeah, I totally get that for sure.

It's like it's it's like something weird that.

Uh.

This guy I was talking to about distribution for a movie that I directed, and he's like said something about airplane rights and I was like, I was like, I didn't even think of that as a thing, you know.

I was like, airplane Rights.

It's like that's really funny and hilarious.

And it's like what you're saying, you know, just playing in the background, you know, this thing that you're so obsessed.

With, no fanfare, it's just there.

And I think when I see, you know, and when I see Lord of the Rings trilogy on the TV, too, I feel the same way.

It's on T T all the time.

But I don't know, you guys, we're all the certain age.

We all are on the same page there.

But you know I have rewatched James Gounn Superman.

I actually watch it today before this recording on HBO Max.

So I have not watched it.

I have watched it now three times, twice in the theater, once at home video.

Luke, what about you?

How many times have you seen the film?

Twice?

I saw it in the cinema and I thought it was only right that I revisited so that we, you know, for this discussion.

So I, however, we don't have HBO Max in the UK, so I did have to buy the digital copy, so I I own it.

And uh, I know that page you, Luke, so thank you for your sacrifice.

I'll take your digital copy of the interview.

It's on Amazon Prime.

I learned how to give it to you.

It's stuck there.

It's stuck there.

If I could, I would, so.

That there's some insight to what Luke might have to say in this conversation.

Roke, what about you?

How many times have you seen the new film?

Here's some insight into what I might say in this situation.

Thrice in the theater and then the fourth time recently, like a week before we did this actually when it came out, and the first time in the theater.

So I live in San Diego, California, for those who don't know, it's about like an hour and a half from Irvine, California, and it's the second biggest Imax theater in the country.

And I drove, you know, an hour and a half up to see it in that format for the first time, and it was a religious experience.

And then saw that the second two times in like regular you know, regular imax and stuff, and then the third time streaming and now that I know there's also a physical media copy and to go seek that out as well.

Yeah, I remember you texted me when you saw and you said I just had a religious experience.

So I was like, well, definitely gonna have to talk about this on the uh, you know.

I So that's where we are.

I you know, I made I'm somewhere in the middle between you guys cards on the table.

I'm closer to Luke than you.

But I've already talked about this a couple of times in my podcast, a couple of times in other people's podcast, so I you know, I'm gonna chime in here and and be part of the conversation.

But really, I'm just really fascinated to sit down with, you know, a couple of good guys here.

We we we can disagree and have a good time and still be friends and just kind of bounce off each other our thoughts about about the movie and kind of unpacked why we felt the way we felt.

And no, we're not trying to win anybody over.

We're just having a conversation here.

And I know you guys are good guys to have those conversations with.

That's that's what made me excited.

Because I texted Zach like a couple of weeks ago and I was like, I was like a little bit hurt because I was like, oh, you have already like done the Superman thing.

And I was like, why wasn't I on there?

And He's like no, no, no, no, no, I'm waiting for you and Luke two opposite total opposite side of this coint I was like, oh, brilliant, Zach, I love it.

Uh yeah, yeah, because you know, you know Luke and he's been on a couple episodes but of the podcast proper, but also he was in one of our you know, countdown episodes or whatever you want to call that, you know, one of the trailer discussions.

And then uh, and then Roc of course you're you're a very familiar voice all our listeners here, and you bring a lot of enthusiasms, So I uh and and and importantly, like, let let's put things in a little context for for for everybody.

Right.

So, so, Luke, you were on our trailer episode and people kind of might have a vibe for what you might have thought.

But going into this, what were your thoughts and expectations for James going Superman.

Yeah, so you could.

Yeah, if you go back to the trailer episode, you can see I'm quite apprehensive about it.

Like I'm not sure.

I'm not certain.

I'm not certain.

I'm not certain.

But I went and genuinely wanting to like this movie.

I love the character of Superman.

His big screen and adaptations are a mixed bag for me.

There's some that are great, there's some that are not.

I went really wanting to like this movie, despite early apprehensions to it.

But uh, you know, I'm a big Superman fan.

I want to be wowed, I want to be excited.

I I want to I wanted to feel that kind of hopeful hopefulness.

I'm I'm not a massive James gunfan.

I like a couple of his films, uh, you know, Guardians One is fun, U Super is disturbing, Uh you know, but kind of interesting, you know.

So, but but I but the rest of his sort of filmography doesn't really didn't really inspire me.

So there was that sort of apprehension going in as well.

So I wanted to like it, but I went in just a little bit little bit hesitant, and the you know that that the weird One of the actually one of the weirdest things about seeing this film is it's been a long time since I've seen a movie in the States.

The last time I saw a movie in the States was Toy Story three.

Okay wow, so okay.

In the in the UK, before every screening of a film, there is the the I don't know, the people who like stamp it with the approval, right, and this is black, this black screen that comes up and says, oh, this film has been approved and this is why it's rated this you know, blah blah blah.

You get this stamp for some reason.

On this screening, it didn't have that.

This is the only film I've ever seen in the UK that didn't have this.

I saw it with my friend James and my wife, and the little Superman logo came up with the you know, little circular thing and he breaks the chain or whatever, and then the ice, you know, the the North Pole scene starts and we all sort of sat there going, wait, is this is this a commercial?

Or has it?

Has it?

Has it started?

You know?

So in right out the gate I'm where I'm already like, yeah, I'm off balanced because of because of that.

But but then you know the you know, the the title crawl with the three centuries, three years, three minutes, three seconds, three milis.

I was just like, oh, this is a studio note because someone said this doesn't make sense and you need to contextualize what's going on for the dummies in the audience.

Oh okay, what about you?

I want I don't actually, I don't know this actually what what what was your temperature kind of leading into the movie?

What were you thinking going into this?

Oh?

Yeah, because we really didn't talk that much about this at that point.

I think I was like, oh, well, of course it won't surprise you, uh to know that I was geeking out with the trailers.

I was super excited, you know, very opposite of the apprehension that Luke described I was.

I was really kind of like I was very engaged from the first trailer that came out, and when the guitar riff of the John Williams music started up, I was like it just it clicked for me.

I was just like, Okay, I like I get because here's the thing, Like for any new iteration of these favorite characters of ours, right, Like the question for me as a fan and as a filmmaker is always like, well, what's the take?

Right?

Like how is it?

How is it a unique take, or how is it something you know, how is it doing something different or or giving us something that's like needed right now, as opposed to just like okay, we're doing another one of these, right and and so like you know, I had those questions with The Batman where I was like, I'm super excited this is I'm sure gonna be awesome, but like I need to see some trailers to really feel like what is the take?

How is this its own thing?

And it's not like you know, we're doing the Nolan thing or we're doing Joker, Like what is it you know.

And so when this one came out with the trailer, I was like, oh, like something about that music helped me to get like, oh, this is the take.

I was like, it's the Loving tribute.

And at the same time, it's a contemporary remix.

It's almost say, you know, James Gunn is a DJ taking best hits but doing his own original stamp.

And that's just like what I felt with all the trailers and then carried through into the movie and and and actually to go to that what Luke brought up with the uh the font, Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up because I love that.

I was just like, oh, this what I I loved it because I was like, oh, this is one like you know, his Star Wars Star Wars homage, right, but like two.

I was like, I just thought it was something I had dreamed about for a long time, which was like reading comics all the time.

It just kind of like, you know, a lot of the great graphic novels just throw you right in right, like you're just like, okay, birthright er, well, Birthright's a bad example, it's in or but you know there's a lot of more there, just like no Origin, We're just gonna throw you in, you know, Superman for all season whatever, like, and so that was the vibe for me.

I was like, okay, cool, like they're yes, they are giving a little bit of exposition for like the average moviegoer.

But at the same time, I was like, that's really not too much exposition.

It's kind of just like bam bam bam, like you're in the story.

So I mean, to be fair, I think it did go on kind of wild.

I mean it was like paragraph after paragraph now and I understand that, I understand.

But how many paragraphs did the Star Wars flaw right?

Yeah?

But on Star Wars it's like moving and it's like colorful.

This is to me, I don't know, like Superman Returns.

It's it's a step above Superman Returns.

The Superman Turns is like white text on a black screen.

I'm like, come on, how lazy can you get like that?

Talk about a studio and I'm like, you know what, Yeah, let's take out that ten minute return the croup on sequence and just put up this graphic and be done with it.

And aerial fonds or what I know it's on aerial fond, But like something boring.

I understand why you gravitate to it, Roca, because I mean I felt the same way what you're describing about this and feeling the comic books.

I felt that way in the Batman when I heard Batman's voice over, and I was like, that is brilliant.

We've never had that before.

And now I feel like I'm reading a graphic novel.

I'm turing the pages, you know, like Long Halloween or something like that.

So I understand I did not make that same feeling this time with this, but but intellectually, I understand what you're describing.

So so you were hyped, Luke was uh, you know, cautiously optimistic, wanting to like it.

Turned out, Luke, you didn't like it, and Roka, you liked it a lot.

So that's that's that's where we are.

So, I mean we started at the beginning.

Obviously we're not gonna go be for beat through the whole movie or anything.

But yeah, so let's start positive.

Roca.

What was your favorite thing about James Gone Superman?

Oh?

Wow?

That I mean all of it, every single right, No, I think that I think for me, I was really thinking about how this movie to me just encapsulates like we're okay, we're coming from you and me are coming from this place of and I don't know about you, Luca, in terms of Smallville, like growing up with Smallville, growing up with a take that is very deconstruction, you know, deconstructing the mythos in a way, right, like and taking it apart and then pulling it from the inside out and doing weird different things that are unexpected and some of it is experimental and you know, but it's true to the core of the character.

But with but so like that's you know, Smallville, right, and that's like what we grew up loving, and is this special place in our heart with Superman which James Gunn Superman it was to me, it was like it was like this is the most kind of like classical in the best sense, like just sort of stripping Superman down to his essence, like and not just him, but like Lois Lex, you know, like the world the world building of Metropolis and the comic book universe.

It was like, this just feels like, you know, a graphic novel come to life.

It feels like comic come to life.

And so to me, that sort of like distilling of Superman and his world and his characters too.

It's kind of just bare essence to me.

That's what made it.

I think the like such a special kind of take on it.

And it's and I say that as someone who also loves the deconstructivist dark more you know, nuanced or whatever kind of takes like Batman vs.

Superman and Man of Steel and you know, Snyder's Justice League and all.

We've talked about all this and I love those takes.

Those are you know, some of my favorites as well.

But what made this one so special is that it was like, Okay, we've done that, we've deconstructed, we've taken it apart.

Now let's put it back together and like just remind the world like why Superman is who he is.

And there's nothing that could kind of, like, to me, kind of sum up that more perfectly than the whole Superman saying he's into punk rock low it's making fun of him, and then punk Rocker playing at the end.

It's it's pretty much like that moment that whole aspect is like I was like, Oh, this is what I've been arguing to friends for years, Like people who tell me, oh, Superman's boring Superman has too many powers, like hed know, oh he's just perfect who cares right?

Like he's you know what about the edgyar superheroes.

To me, that like being kind and being inspirational is punk rock in today's age.

That's like, I think my favorite aspect of the whole thing.

Okay, Luke, what.

Did I What did I like about?

No?

No, no, I'm not that negative.

I'm not that negative.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Matt, I do.

I think if I were to pinpoint the thing that I enjoyed the most about the film is I would say that, yes, it got the character of Superman.

Right.

I didn't feel like I wasn't I didn't feel like it wasn't Superman.

I feel like it was Superman.

Maybe not as deep as what I would have liked.

That doesn't mean deconstructed or he needs to be like overly you know, did by by things or you know whatever.

But but I think on a on a on the most basic level, I think it got it got Superman right, and it got the supporting cast most mostly right.

But it just lacked depth for me.

But I but I do like that general sort of there was a I guess there was a hopeful vibe to the whole film.

How that kind of hopeful message was conveyed, you know, you know, I I question its coherency maybe, you know, I questioned the execution a little bit, but that I will say, yes, I you know, I like the I like the concept and I like the ideas of what Gun was trying to say with this film.

But I yeah, it's it's it's the execution.

I think for me that that holds a lot of my what could be gushing love for the film.

It's it's that that holds a lot of that back.

Yeah that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, I feel that as well.

I feel like, obviously I can see what he's set out to do to me, the devil is in all the little details and they all kind of add up to like I don't know, but no, I too was listening to iggy pop and you know, like you know, as James Gun is prone to do it, as he proved in all his Guardians films, he has a knock for these soundtracks.

And between that and the US Terrific Action Sequence song, which I also listened to it, Like, you know, so I've been listening to those a lot, and it's almost become a parody of itself, like the Superman hope right, Like I'm kind of like I'm kind of like tired of like I mean, obviously the character represents that, but I don't forever the past fifteen years or so, that's like been like it's been too much of a buzzword with the character and when anything like yeah, all right, but it just it loses its meaning when it's just repeated ad nauseum forever and every iteration instead of we'd rather see that, right and you see don't tell, which which is probably my biggest issue with the film.

It's just there's that's what I noticed today when I rewatch it, like constant exposition and not just the opening text, like just take that out of it.

I'm just like everyone is telling everybody else everything, and it's like, you know, you probably should have done that thing.

And John deports Superman like what thing?

What are we talking about?

Like all this and well, you know, I've changed my body to help Relex and give it up my humanity absolutely well as you know he's being studied.

Oh well, you know all the that's my cousin, no she does this and that it's like okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Superman.

It's like I don't know, it's just it's just overwritten, I guess, and that kind of that stuff kind of gets in the way I want to feel more than he told things.

And I think that's kind of what that's kind of what I'm trying to zero with what I'm saying, Like I understand like like the the arc and the message of this film and what he's trying to do, But it's just like, let let the film breathe a little bit on its own instead of like just constantly just talking and telling and all these all these things.

But uh, yeah, I don't I'm with you.

I think we're all in alignment about what what Like Kar kind of sticks out the lesson and whatnot.

But yeah, let's uh, let's talk about this, Roka.

This will be a challenging question for you.

What is your least favorite thing about this film?

And it's okay to not like something about something you love.

So we've looked, we've ripped apart Minnie a Smallvel episode, and we love small Vel, So I know you can find something that it's like, yeah, this didn't work for me.

I can do it.

I can do it.

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I mean I would.

I definitely that like what you're saying with the exposition, though there are moments like that that stand out every time that I sold my humanity moment, I'm always like this that always makes me feel like a bad Smallville exposition moment, like like as you know, yeah, as you know lex, like you know, I also think, not not to sound silly about like oh I loved it, and I think it should be longer, but like I do actually think there could be like in terms of like what Luke was saying of like letting certain things breathe.

I think they let the moments breathe nicely.

But I do think that it's it's a film that actually could benefit from I'm not talking like Zack Snyder cut like three hout like, but I do think that it could benefit from letting certain moments breathe a little more and maybe getting to just like I like that the movie takes time to spend time in the little moments and like you know Superman and Crypto moments or like you know, Superman and lowis like the whole like you know, argument and debate like those moments, and I love those and I could see the movie benefiting even more from having a few more little moments sprinkled in the bigger And I think that one element that that you know, to me stood out in that regard as like one of my favorite elements.

And at the same time, something that I think could be improved by adding just a little bit is Nicholas Holtzelex Luthor that he is like the perfect to me, like perfect casting.

He is like he personifies Lex in uh Michael Rosenbaum comic book Lex like perfect perfect way I'm wearing the shirt to represent.

Shirt.

This is I don't know who found this for you, but this is kind of and then and don't take this the wrong way.

I'm just trying to describe it.

This like kind of shirt you see like int a gas station.

You know, you understand what I'm saying.

Like it's like because it's like Nicholas old and then like five pictures of him like this weird montage.

Yes, that's not a criticism.

I'm just sure.

No, it's totally that.

It's like all these random expressions and it's kind of like like if anyone didn't know, you know, like who he was, Like what am I looking at?

What is this?

Like thet like you know, my brother found that for my birthda.

This is amazing and hilarious.

But on that note, it's like I think kind of what you're saying in terms of letting certain moments breathe, I think that with Nicholas whole, like we get I think we get his motivation really well.

It's classic comic book Lex.

Everything about the way he's depicted is just like Chef's kiss, like perfection.

And as you know, Zach, you know my love for that character of Lex Luthor, not just in small Ville, but like in general, and so all that's perfect.

One thing I would have loved is like two and maybe I'm just being greedy wanting more.

But like I was like, oh, man, Like I would love to have known why is it called Luther Corp?

In this is?

Is there a Lionel?

Is there a Is there a back?

Instead of Lex Corp?

You know?

Is there is?

Is he?

The is he?

You know coming from you know, an evil father?

Smallville style, Eisenberg style?

Is he a self made man from the streets like burn?

Lex?

Is there?

You know?

I would love to have seen like a little moment with him in the public, like where we see his child.

Agree with everything you were saying, Broke, I I could not agree more with what you're saying.

And my my final verdict on Lex is the opposite of yours.

But I agree with everything you're saying.

Had had we gotten the things you're saying, I would be a much bigger fan, because I do.

I do feel like an underserved character.

Now, you're right, accuracy, I mean accuracy, Yeah, he's very accurate.

I guess I'm learning it older.

I get that accuracy does not mean to me anyway, like, uh, quality is such a strong word to say there, But I don't know that accuracy doesn't automatically mean it's better than other things.

I guess sure for sure.

Yeah, yeah, so you love Lex, but those are you're saying, like, Hey, I wish we would have gotten more, maybe more more shades to the character, more insight into him.

And I could not agree more with you.

So I feel like we're gonna about this is where we're gonna start coming up to some rough stuff here because Luke, I mean, lu we've talked too.

There's a lot of things you don't like.

I I'm interested to see what if you had to just say, hey, this thing in particular is my least favorite thing, what would it be.

Well, it's it's funny because you know we're watching this yesterday, stroke today, whatever time, whatever time it is right now, it's tambiguous.

The thing that stood out to me the most, and that I think I disliked the most because there's a bunch of little things.

The big one, honestly was Lex.

It was I in my like Main Issues, I wrote my notes, so like main main issues is Lex and it's sort of they boiled down to that bit where he's like, oh, my master plan is to kill you and that's why I set up the conflict in the Middle East.

So I could kill you, And I was like, oh, that doesn't really track because we didn't see or experience any of that in the way like the perfect I think maybe the perfect example of this is is contrast this with X Men two.

Like Nightcrawler storms the White House, then Striker comes in and says, oh, well, you know, hey, look at the look at this, you know, the school we need to take care of.

We need to take care of them, you know.

And then you're kind of peppered through Striker's storyline and why he wants to, you know, kill all the mutants, and you really feel that, and you feel that he is a villain, He's a worthy villain, were the adversary for the.

X Men, and then the reveal of his son being a huge.

Motivator exactly exactly.

It's it's perfect, And Jason stopped.

Yeah, that's one of those lions that my best friend Lance last re quoted for years just because of does Patrick Stewart out verse Jason stopping.

It's great, right, It's I love it, but but you know so it's it's And again that's a film that runs at like two hours and fifteen minutes, which I think is one of the perfect run times for a superhero film.

So I agree that more time could have been added to this film a little bit, but I think I think in terms of time and flushing things out, I agree that scenes like like the Lowis and Clark scene where they're arguing and there are sporadic scenes that on a scene basis, I'm like, yeah, this is a okay scene.

But again, comparing it to like said X Men two, where you have these little moments but they are being pulled along by this central narrative, there is I would say that their lex doesn't have a central narrative in this story.

He's just sort of he's throwing a kaiju at you.

He's throwing you know that, the dome head, the hammer of whatever that he that's it.

He's throwing that at you.

He is he's got this pocket universe where he's he's got his ex girlfriend locked up and all these things.

He's there's there's throwing so much at you, and none of it feels cohesive.

There's no sort of it's it's it feels like it does feel like you have picked up a random issue of a comic book, and that for the for the you know, the general reader, if you know, if you just pick up a random issue you start reading it, that can feel jarring and confusing, and so therefore you're like, oh, maybe start with this number one over here, Maybe start with this, you know, collection over here, so you can kind of feel it with with leg And I think that's what was the problem.

This felt, it did feel like a comic book.

But for me, in the in the worst ways, I understood Lex's motivation.

I understand it was all sort of like.

I mean, he laid it off very clearly at the end when he opened up All Star Superman and started reading it to Superman rights.

The ideology off was just too much for me.

Yeah, that that drove that drove me nuts.

But no, oh that was so comic though I love that too comic though too too much.

It's it's it's too much, But I yeah, I think with I think for me it was Lex and just his sort of lack of lack of This is It's interesting because at the moment, I gotta be careful what I say because I'm currently judging a literary award, and plausibility came up as one of our discussions, and these are for psychological thrillers, so you know, plausibility is really, you know, all about earning suspension of disbelief.

And because you know, a lot of psychological thrillers are just are nonsense.

They know they wouldn't really work in the real world, and and so that that's the same kind of applies with this.

And I really really struggled with lex On on the idea that he's got this, this this room with all these people, that he is somehow conned into hating Superman and is like I needed to understand why they were cool with that, and I I didn't.

It didn't track for me, dude.

I thought about that today as well, like rewatching it.

I was like, he's got this, he's like rolling people's shoulders and there always see some they've bought into him, right, I feel like what we needed, honestly, we needed a scene of him like selling this to everybody, like all right, I know that it seems extreme, but let me wag it off for you.

Like I needed that to I wanted to see him win his people over, would have won me over.

And I rewatching, I'm like, that's that's that was a big mis element.

That's that's I totally agree with that.

Actually, I think that that it's like we're seeing seeing Lex.

I love those moments like the rugby and the shoulder, and like this cult of personality he's you know cultivated, is like very lex and very like prescient in today's you know age, right, and so like I love that, and but I agree.

I was like, as like something about this.

I'm like, I feel like there's a deleted scene, like I want to see that moment of like how does he inspire these people to believe in this?

In his xenophobia and is in his madness, you know, because we're so used to Lex being like you know, public face charming and then like in the background his Machiavelian machinations are going on.

But this is like very like he's just doing it, there's.

No yeah, which that dichotomy I also find was misic and Lex because I because he has his own secret identity, you know, because he is this public face of the everybody loves him and all that stuff in the public, but you know he's doing shady stuff behind the way, and you were so desperate for him to get exposed for these things.

That's part of the drive.

And sorry, I know I cut you off the I gotta sorry about that.

No, No, I I lost what I whatever I was saying.

I think we pretty much I have summed it up basically, I agree, but what I what I would add on though, because I'm gonna go go back to X Men.

But again, I think Striker is a really good comparison because you know, there's the scene where you know, I think it's I think it's Senator Kelly, who was actually a mystique is like makes the comment about the company he's he's keeping because he's got Lady desk Strikes as his right hand guy, or Gal who's a mutant but he's so anti mutant, you know.

But he's also a government guy.

He's got these government contracts.

You sort of understand why these people are all at Alkali Lake and they're they're you know, working with him, because that sort of that work.

There was enough for you know, for me to understand that, whereas with Lex it was just sort of it felt like too much weight was put on, like pop culture zeitgeist information of who Lex and really all the characters are.

It's like, well everyone knows Lex hate Superman, wants I'm dead.

That's as deep as we need to go with all of it, and like I disagree.

I think I think go a little bit deeper.

I mean, you know, we watched ten years, well seven years of of Lex luthoran small villain.

Yeah.

The deeper you went, the better it got, you know.

Totally yeah, yeah, okay, a note on that.

By the way, I have to say, I finally, after all these years, you know, growing up loving Smallville, my brother finally watched every season and he's in love with Michael Rosenbaum's Lex.

Like he's he's he's he said.

He he like felt more connected to him than almost any fictional character.

He like cried during these moments of tragedy for him, and like and has a crush on him.

Too, and like how far?

How far did he get?

How far did he get?

He watched the whole thing, and and and and and he was like I kept wondering when is he going to stop rooting for him?

You know?

And I think it was around the time of like the pregnancy and that stuff that he kind of was like, okay, like you know, I'm I'm not rooting for him, but I'm like, but he's a villain now, and I'm you know, I've.

Seen something season six really is to me the turning point of like then of marriage and fake pregnancy, evil stuff like.

And thirty three point one, like you know, it's that's yeah, it's like but but it goes to you know, what you guys are saying in terms of like developing the why of his villainy, right, like we we get the why, and then when he is truly evil, it's so much more like psychologically real and and and tragic and satisfying on a character level.

And and it's like, yeah, it's like I do it brings up an interesting question, which is like when you think of because I was thinking about this rewatching it recently, I was like, I feel like Holt is in terms of performance quintessential, like just leaped off of a comic book like this is this is Lex from the comics, like he's him, you know.

And and in terms of like the writing, it's like I felt like a lot of it was just quintessential, perfect like that, but just that it needed those extra beats that we're talking about to make it one hundred percent like three dimensional.

So it just was like I was like, oh, it's interesting.

I just it made me think about the you know, just the writing of different lexes in the you know, forget Smallville.

We all know that's like the King, right, but like in terms of like the the movies, you know.

And I was like, and I was thinking about the writing versus like performance in terms of movies, and it just made me think about that.

I was like, Oh, it's interesting.

I don't know.

I was like, maybe like Eisenberg for all the vitriol that he gets, and you know, I love him, but it's like, I feel like like there was actually a little bit more in terms of like backstory and in terms of you know, some of the motivation and stuff like that, and then and then in terms of but then in terms of performance like holds his like straight up comic books.

So I don't know.

It was just an interesting question that I wonder if you guys had thought about it too, like best written versus best performed lex And.

Well, I'll say this, I think Nicholas Holt, who's even said he grew up watching Smallville and off Michael Rosemom'm like, he's clearly doing the Michael Rosenbaum lex, right, But I think that's why I don't connect with it, because I'm like, well, you're not him, How dare you stand where he stood?

Like it because all the other ones of their own, you know, like Michael Kudliss is different than Kevin Spacey, who's different than John Shay, who's different than John Cryer, who differ than Gene Hackman.

Right, They're all different.

And I'm like, well, you're just kind of doing what he did without any of the depth backstory or interpersonal relationship with Clark Kenner Superman, which is one of my favorite aspects of the character.

I can't I'm gonna beat a dead horse here when I say this, but like, I can't believe their first meeting was in this film and it was what it was like, I'm like, that is so under well, Like I don't like that's the scene which they released like two weeks before the movie came out.

We're all making fun of Outstagram is yelling at him.

That's a Missy yellment.

And Yeah, when we get the end of the conversation, we can talk rifly about our expectations with a sequel.

That is something that I'm looking forward to In the sequel, if they're truly gonna be co leads, they're gonna have presumably a lot more interaction, which I would love to see because being the Smavel fan I am, I want to see these two characters interact.

So that's that's kind of my take on it.

And I've gotten a lot of vitre all now because I'm like, I think I like Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor or the Nicholas Hold as Lex Luthor, which is an adam bomb of a hot take, I know, especially for me you guys who can hear what I've said.

I've come around on Eisenberg and I really kind of appreciate what they were doing with him, not not the Lex I would have chosen for that time, but I appreciate the take.

That's where I am.

I love it, Yeah.

I have, I I agree with I agree with Zach.

How dare you stand?

You know?

Like I I do get that, and I think that was that was one of my apprehensions going in is just from the trailers, what you're hearing about the story.

I'm like, I am seeing things that I've already seen before.

It's like that James Cameron quote when he's talking about like watching Terminator Genesis see things I recognize.

Yeah, And I'm like, well, I've seen this before.

I've seen this before.

I said this before.

This is just Superman returns kind of like we've already, like we've been here before.

Guys like do something, Why are we doing Lex again?

Like he's been in like what like what five of the like seventh super Bowl.

That's a common criticism.

I will push back on the fact that like Lex again, I feel like Lex now he's part of the cast, the supporting cast.

Now he is the main villain here, which perhaps they should not have done.

Luke.

I will agree there, but he should always be there.

I'm cool with him actually not literally not being there at all.

I really would, I really would be okay with it.

It's kind of like he's he plays like the Joker to me now, where I'm like, I need less Joker.

Stop.

I feel that I like the.

Batman, but that ending moment that couldn't resist you know, even even what is the Cape Crusader on on a.

Again?

Stop it?

But yeah, but no, no, I I did.

I felt it both with with with Holtz and with Corn Sweat.

I'm like, well, Corn Sweat is like Jim Helpert meets meets Christopher Eve and I'm and so I'm like, you're this is all the same, Whereas you know, previous Superman feel very different from each other, and this just felt like, I'm not you are Superman.

I can see it, but it's not distinct enough.

And I and I felt the same with Lex.

I thought, well, this is sort of an amalgamation of Rosenbaum and Hackman, and I'm hands up.

I don't really like Hackman's lex.

I never I never have, even as a kid.

I just sort of thought he was a bit they might be because his his his like henchmen are so silly that Yeah, it was hard for me to buy into his lex and then by the second film he's just so it's just he's just too much.

He's great in Superman four, Luke, have you watched Superman four?

The question piece, It's been a long time since I've since I've revisited that guy.

Seriously, all jokes aside about that, like, uh, I think he's the most accurate confict Lex with of his appearances in Superman four.

Go back and rewatch that well.

Love the gene Hackman appearances, you know, one, two, and four.

He is playing governments against each other.

He's a mad scientist, he's growing super villains like he he he evolves beyond the real estate James Bond villain he was in the first one, which ironically is something Supermember Turns didn't understand.

It was like, oh, well, he'll just do the same thing.

I'm like, what super Man four figured it out?

Why don't you figure it out?

So I would just put put your production value hat, take that off and watch Superman four and appreciate it.

For Gene Hackman's before when someone he's doing but fair enough, fair enough love that.

So you know what you guys are saying.

And we we've talked about lex a lot here and I have before, And I think so we can all love hater, indifferent or in the middle, like I think we're all gravitating towards the same things more depth, right, and just sideing on what you said, Luke about Korn Sweat.

I like korn Sweat a lot, although he too suffered from no Clark Kent character.

I mean, so much of that.

Why do we love Christer Reeves Superman so much?

Obviously you know his fantastic performance, but on the other side of that, you have his he have is Clark Kent, which is such a memorable, fun, whimsical thing to do.

You're you're having foot with the secret identities and the shirt rips and the changes and the excuses and then and all that kind of stuff is so great.

I love that kind of stuff.

And David Kornswat didn't get a chance to any of that.

He was Clark Kent for a scene and a half and then and then there was no Cork Clark Kin and yes he was at home with the Kents without his classes.

That's something of our secret identity, Clark kN is identity that Brandon Routh carved out a huge part of that.

Like arguably christ To Reeve is number one for me.

Brandon Routh, he's, you know, three after Tom Willing because you know, obviously so much of what Brandon Ralphs strength is to me is like he got to do Superman, he got to do so much Clark Kent, so much fun Clark Kent.

Yeah, not and like a recalibrated like Clark can from Christopher Reeve because he's playing the same one, but not like, oh my god, it like not over the top as Christo Reeve could bet.

He's like a little more subtle.

But yeah, still club quirky, but this person could exist.

So that's what I'm saying, And so corn Swagen didn't get to do that.

I hope we can rectify that in a sequel.

I don't know, but I think that's something that that makes him less dimensional than I would have liked.

Yeah, but let me let me throw this out of you guys, because this is something I thought about rewatching this.

I think if I I have I have issues as well, Luke, but if I had to pick, if I had to pick one thing, that maybe kind of threw me off more than because I think that's the foundation everything throwing me off, like the introductions to characters and actors and everything, right, absolutely right.

This is like pulling issue four of a six part mini series off the shelf, and a lot of people are responding that.

I mean, this is a very popular film, made money, critical success.

A lot of fans love it, a lot of people don't love it so much, you know, you know, but it's it's you know, as any Superman movie that comes out, it's polarizing apparently.

Now yeah, yeah, so your mileage may vary on that taking number issue four of six right, But to me, I think of a It's very important to establish a new universe, right, I mean, Man of Steel cannot be confused as remember turns right, this can totally be like would have come out with Black Adam and the Flash and all that.

I mean, this fits right in with late era DCEU in my opinion.

But I thought I watched GoldenEye again recently and something that's something about gold the Jans Bond film, the first one with Piers Bros.

And that kind of you know, re energize the franchise after a break.

Every character in that film has an incredible like introduction, either like a shot or an action sequence or some sort of way you you like, oh, oh it's James Bond, right, like the way they introduced Piers bros.

And finally, like I was a slow build up or even thinking about Raiders with a lot of stark right Indiana Jones, how do we the slow reveal of him?

Right?

Yeah?

So I think that's like that's important, right to establish a character for the first time, that the first scene or first shot or build up to those things.

This film does the opposite of all of that, am I Because like the first time you see Servan is the you know, the way we saw him in the trailer.

He's got his ass beat bloody in the snow, and he spends most of the movie like that.

So you start, you start off like that and then oh that's him, right, what's the first what's the first shot we see of Lex?

I don't know.

He's kind of I don't know that they're trying to do like the silhouette thing with the sun and the glens flare, but it's so fast, like like you could have done a cool thing with like his silhouette, and he steps out of the shadow, like like not even thinking about like Batman eighty nine now with a Joker stepping on the shadow, stuffing that these are memberable ways to visually introduce all these characters, and it's just it's all so boring and like not even not even thought about, you know, like the first time we see Moa, she's like walking by, Oh, oh that's Lewis or you know, like I don't I don't know, like I felt like that.

So I guess what I'm getting at is like re establishing all these characters, because Lukey mentioned like I think they're relying too much on oh, well, you know Lois lanmeworks of The Daily Planet, and you know Lex Luthor hates Superman and all that, and you know Clarkin's kind of a goofy guy.

So that's something that kind of stuck out to me that that helped crystallize why I might have been maybe off balanced Luke watching this film and so, Roc, what are your thoughts on I mean, you love the film, what do you what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, No, that's that's that's a that is something that I thought about the first time watching it for sure, where I was like I was thinking about similar things like oh, you know, wow, we just there's Lex and now he's doing evil things and it's like whoa like you know, like and like, oh there's you know, it's it's uh.

And I did think about that for sure.

On the one hand, I was like, okay, Like I was a little bit like whiplash, you know, like, oh, where's our introduction kind of thing like, And then on the other kind, I was like, oh, well, I was like, I guess that's kind of cool because of the comic book thing we're talking.

It's like, oh, yeah, we don't need to do a lengthy thing or just throw you right into the story.

But yeah, no, I mean I definitely can can understand that for sure.

I think that.

I mean you just look at like to me like you know, beating a dead horse again, you know, with a small book comparison, but like you look at a moment like the thirty three point one like kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep like moment, it's like like that if you had a moment like that, It's like that's an introduction to your villain, you know, like the shadows, the hands coming out of it, Like you know, like a moment like that is and is just like oh wow, like that's that's grabbing you and like that's who the character is.

So I do think, I don't I don't know.

I feel like there's Again it goes to my thing about like loving what's already there and just feeling like there should be a slightly lengthier cut that we can actually let some of these moments breathe and like introduce characters a little bit in a that lets them breathe and you know, just let those little moments play a little bit longer.

From the new Superman movie Watch Out, a giant Kaiju muster is destroying the city this looks like a job for Superman.

He flies in with a powerful punch.

You slime explosion.

Oh, the Kiju is reloading for a bigger battle.

Call in the Justice Gang get him Green Lantern, Mister Terrific teams up Hawk Girl Source in to help Superman save the day.

Bloom Slime Time.

Superman versus Kidju, battle pack, other figures.

He chilled Ziber late Superman would rate of PG thirteen.

As you were talking, I was thinking about the Batman and like that has such a cool introduction to Batman as well.

You have a really good, clear introduction to Gotham.

It's Halloween, it's all creepy, it's got the bad signal, and then you got the the you know that that trained the platform scene and he just comes walking out of the dark with.

The forever there.

Yeah with the game, yeah, you know, minus the Neon.

But that's why we turned off the black lights.

That's how they look.

Great.

I would have loved that.

I I that that that really stood out, Like that scene stands out and then he just beats the crap out of those out of the gang and like that that that was great.

Now I don't I don't mind I don't mind the the opening of the film starting out it's taking me some time.

I don't necessarily mind coming in mid action.

I don't mind coming in even with him losing a first fight.

I I think it would have been more interesting to have come in mid fight and really experience the hope of Metropolis suddenly dip because Oh, this thing, just for the first time beat Superman.

And how the first tells us yeah, yes, how do the people respond to that?

How does the daily Planner is?

How does lowist?

Just like all of that would have And when I was in my very early writing career, I was thinking, Oh, it'd be really fun to just to my free time to write a you know, a Superman story, and like, what what if you did Superman?

What if you did Doomsday?

But in like the nineteen forties, right love, And so I had this idea that the whole, the whole fight between Doomsday and Superman takes place over the course of the entire film, and so it's and so in between that you're kind of jumping through time to kind of catch up and find out all that kind of stuff.

And therefore, like the opening almost sort of started with with his with his death and that kind of big shock moment with Lois and then this is just me having fun.

This was not anything official obviously, but you know, but when I when I saw I like the idea of jumping into the action.

But I think, you know it.

It needed to pull us in more, and as Zach was saying, introduce us to the characters in a way that felt impactful because in my notes, in my notes right here, I wrote one of my main one of my main issues is character problems.

I wrote, too many are one dimensional.

And the Daily Planet scene is so disappointing to me because Cat Grant is literally just there to be curves, like that's it, and it's like you could have done something with her.

Jimmy, okay, all the ladies love him.

Why, Like I need to I need to understand.

I know Lois says, I don't get it, and I'm like that I don't get it either, but the script doesn't get it.

Like if you've got a magnetic personality, you know I can get it.

But I didn't see a magnetic personality.

I saw Dick, like when he was being quite mean to Eve.

I'm like, I, what is is that?

Is that the gimmick that you're just a dickhead, and that's that's.

That he enjoy that.

But you are right, he is being it.

Needs more need the whole weekend.

I mean it's amusing kind of, I kind of I kind of was like as as a as a nice guy who uh sometimes feels uh uh, it sometimes feels a pang of like, wait, what's she doing with this dude?

That's what I thought the joke was.

Like, I was like, maybe that's James Gunn like taking his frustration.

Oh you know, it's like.

Maybe James Gunn is every character in this movie.

That is a great point, Luke, I every every character is self insert character James Gunn Supermas.

Yeah.

No, I know it's fine because I like, I like, I was surprised how much I like Jimmy and the and the eve Test Smucker stuff.

But also it is I mean, it's funny.

We laugh at he's like, oh yeah, we can totally be together.

Right.

It's amusing, but it's also like do this kind of it's kind of dick move.

Like like the last Jedi.

It's it's and like red like what Red Letter Media said there, it's it's significant misfires of comedy and and there are moments where I'm fine with the concept of what's going on with with Jimmy and with even stuff.

But there are moments where, like the whole weekend, I'm like, this is this is not the time for the joke, Like this doesn't this doesn't make the film feel dramatic.

It actually sinks the drama and makes me frustrated as the viewers.

I'm like, this is this is not the time.

Just say yes and get the information right.

Good God, I agree, like like yeah, technically, but it's so funny for her to be like, I'm sorry, I'm such an inconvenience for you issue, Like yes, that was I And look, I am mister like against wedged in comedy just as people can can check the tapes people there, but like that, I found that very amusing.

So I understand what you're saying, but I will I will actually defit that because I enjoyed it quite a bit at the end.

Lets let's let's ahead to the end with Jimmy and her.

Is he happy at the end?

Is he not smile?

Well?

It's interesting because I heard this interview where James Gunn said there was like three takes of that or something or three versions and like one was like oh, and then another was like the smile, and then something and then there was like some other variation and uh and then he kept the smile, which I thought was a good choice, yeah, because it could have played as just too like what we're talking like, you know, but but I like that.

Okay, there's that's cute.

So in the sequel they better be a happy couple and we're gonna have words.

What can't we just say something about Eve real quick?

And that is how stupid is Lex?

Okay, well this is this is an overall Lex.

This is this is like an ongoing Lex discussion, right like Lex Lex trusting the the Lex having the the quote unquote bimbo ka type.

There was a moment when, uh, this Lex and this Eve are stepping off the helicopter going to the fortress and she's like all like giddy and stuff.

And there is a little moment where I was like, oh no, no, no, like not you know, like let's keep the the dark, evil tone of Lex.

Let's not go to you know, Hackman and this and that, you know.

But then I was like, okay, you know, I think I think they suck the landing with making him very sinister and keeping you know how evil he is and and uh, you know, but yeah, it is an interesting it's an overall discussion with his character in several iterations with the in the films anyway, when the films, yeah, and not the comics really, but the consistently get the character correct exactly well, even he's a bad biker.

To me, one of the most the only line of dialogue I've ever read of Lex explaining it in a way that was funny and satisfying and sadly cut from the movie itself, was in Super Returns.

If you there's the I have the actual you know, like the script, like the shooting script, and there's a lot of really cool stuff that was cut from it and including a lot of like enlightening characterization moments of of Lex.

And one of them is like a goon straight you know, one of the tough goons like that, the tattoos and stuff like straight up asks him like why do you keep her around?

Like why you know, like this stupid idiot, you know, and and he's like in that way that you can only picture like Spacey delivering you know, very like you know, well why how why do why do people keep ugly dogs?

It makes them look better, you know, something like that.

And it's like and it's like it's the irony of it is so great because it's like, well, she's the looker and he's the physically ugly one, but to him, it's his mind that makes him the owner and she's the dog.

And it's like exactly, I will say that it is an improvement on the Lorelei character from Superman three, who was like, oh, I'm just a I'm just a mindless supermodel here, and then she like is secretly a genius and they do nothing with that, Like that's an interesting idea.

It's an interesting idea.

They do nothing with it.

But in here, I mean she's she's being the dits, but she's actually collecting incriminating evidence against Lex' the entire film with her pictures.

That that's my problem.

That's my problem.

You see, Okay, I don't understand why Lex would even allow anyone to have their.

Because he underestimates.

See, your your over confidence is your weakness.

Well, oh we'll see.

That's that's I was gonna say.

But where is she posting these things?

And she's just on her phone.

Is I think there's a hint at this actually, because Luke, that is a really good point.

But when the whole where's the Dog moment and he's like, Eve, are you getting this?

And I think that that's like a hint that she's like he thinks that he's just directing her to be his social media like person, like to post shit that's gonna make Superman look bad.

And so anytime she's taking the selfies and he's just like she's doing my will, you know, like she's nothing.

She's put like one of his monkeys, you know, and literal, and then it's like nope, like you know.

Yeah, maybe I can I can see that now.

But but again maybe it goes back to our points earlier where it's like you need just a bit more depth, like you know, if if maybe if it was I'm not saying things gonna be spelled out or like like a moment or so look, this movie loves spelling things out.

Let me tell you.

You know, it's a good scene where he's like having a pr moment and she's the one who is, you know, managing his social media is like that right, there would have been probably the the ideal scene to make me think, oh, this is why she has her phone all the time, right, you know, I could have bought that, but I think because they because there's nothing like I'm just sort of like, I don't I want to end why but I wanted.

A scene between the two of them, like just a scene, a c to establish their relationship at all, because like she like hulds him at the beginning, and yeah, I've never seen a Lex.

He is so mean to her more so than any other.

Lex has a menure his female companion.

In these films.

At least there's some like smarmy interaction or some sense of affection between Lex and all these other women in the movies that he's had around him.

But here he's just there was notion at all.

Throwing the throwing the pencil at her head, Yeah.

I mean that was that was the straw, the last straw for her.

That's what she sends to me all the pictures.

So so let's le le let's talk about this.

Rou defended me the engineer in this film.

Why she is here, I honestly, other than to set up the authority movie that's no longer happening.

Honestly to me.

She's literally just a crypto freak like from Smallville, Like she's she's there as a plot device for fun, and she's also there to be like Lex's little henched woman, unlock.

Something for me.

Now, okay, so she's kind of like a terminator, right, She's kind of like a terminator, you know, she's like Trent from Gone.

No one knows what that is.

No one remembers who that is.

Luke is racking his brain.

Right now, dude, whatever, I this is how deep this is, how deep cuts this is, and how Luke is Like what are they talking about?

Whenever I hear someone whenever I meet someone named Trent, which isn't very often, I think of that and I say it like Trent like Lionel trend.

This is Luke.

I'm so glad that Luke doesn't remember this character.

He's proving my point.

I knew you would remember him because he's Lionel adjacent Roco.

But like season four, episode two Gone, this is like the T one thousand ripoff that Lionel sends to kill Chloe and then Lois and Clark end up killing him with his heat vision and the like electro guns, Like yeah, yeah, by the way kill or no kills Superman.

He just killed a guy with a seat My.

Brother, my brother when he was you know, I told you he's watching it, watching all this for the first time, like really in a row like that.

He texted me, He's like, do Clark just kill someone?

Yeah?

What?

Like you guys are not you guys are not the first people who are like, who is this again?

I remember now it's come back.

It's come vaguely.

But that took a lot of brain power to drow.

That one up, and it was it was just TV T one thousand and it was terrible.

When you said that then I remember, Yes.

I think I think of the crypton side forums they call him the Trent one thousand, which I probably called it myself on the podcast proper.

But it's a symptom of like, this is why it's frustrating.

I think Luke and I would agree on this other road, and you can.

You can send some of the one to two dimensions of it too.

There's so many characters and I'm like, could you like slice off a third of these characters and then we can get some more depth than the ones we have, Like this movie seems so fixated on having all these characters, like I thought, I mean not to jump them, Like, well, yeah, let's just it's open form conversation, like I realized rewatching it again like today.

Another thing it took out to me was the pacing of the end battle.

Right, So he's got like, oh, it's gonna be mister Terrific and Superman versus the Engineer and Ultraman.

Oh no, Misterrific's out.

It's Superman versus Engineer and Ultra Man.

Like they have this whole thing where he flies up in the space and that shows something of the ingenuity, which I respect.

I also, I keep reiterating this.

I really like this part where he's trying to talk down the engineer.

He's like, you don't have to do this, it's not too late, Like that's a very Superman thing to do, and I really appreciated that.

I respect that.

So then like they go open a space and they crash back down and the engine.

Oh no, Angela, don't do it.

I'm like, who cares?

I don't care, Like why does anyone care?

So then she's out for a while, and it's also I'm going over the place now just so so just bear with me.

Here, follow me here on a second.

It's also it's very g I Joe.

I know that, like this is supposed to be like a more kid friendly Superhman is like nobody dies, everybody's fine, Like they're like, oh, she'll live, don't worry, and they and then this ties into something else I'm gonna say then, like shit in the Raptors.

I'm like the Raptors who can't why these characters in here.

So so they sit like in the middle of his fight with Ultraman and the Engineer, they sit in, these thirty guys and he just heat visions them all and again it's all g I Joe because they all he blazes them all with the c vision.

They all fall to the ground and they all seem like wiggling around.

It's Clark Smallville.

Clark throws some.

Like they'll be fine, right and then and then I'm want to run back around.

But I was getting out initially, but I'm thinking of all these other things.

Alentoik's character four geared K two.

So you can't do it, Yeah, you can't do so?

Right, we all have alentoa Ki's geek royalty, right, Resident Aliens of Fantastic Show I recommen.

Everybody check it out, but they haven't watched it, by the way, but you had a moment there.

You could have felt something when he dies, right when he Superman goes back to the fortress and it's been invaded and destroyed and and and it's it's it's kind of funny that it's sad too, because it's like, oh, he's dead, but no, it's okay, kids, he's back and he's got a band aid on his head.

At the end, I'm like, where what because look think about think about the things that that gravitated us we were kids, like Lamb Before Time one of my favorite movies, right, dude, right.

That I play no no joke As an actor, I have been what what my method is when I need to cry is I listen to a song that makes me really emotional, and I have no joke been Like we're about to start a scene, I ask everyone to like f off for a moment.

I listened to If We Hold On Together and the tears.

Well, that's what I'm saying, Like like Littlefoot's mom dying, Like oh my god, Like these things stick with you when you're a kid.

Never ending story The Horse, right I mean, like go down the list right, Yes, when we were moving the fossil, we could, we could take this stuff.

We were kids and it leaves an impression on you and it's sad, but it doesn't like ruin the whole movie, like let the robot die.

Let's see just some steaks here?

Can I just add Paul Kent from the very first Superman movie.

From that's a heavy scene, but they're like afraid to like have death in this.

You know, it's like no, you it's actually it adds layers and it pulls you in emotionally, which was I was desperate to be pulled in emotionally during the school I was.

But sorry, I just got to say, one person does die, the flawful guy.

Yeah.

Didn't that just devastate you?

When flawful guy died?

Can we that that moment?

That moment, I said, Luca's being sarcastic, but that moment, But that that moment, to me was one of the more powerful like wow, this is lex f and Luthor here like that moment him.

Okay, it was the I'm not the linel you knew moment, right, Zach?

You know it was?

I mean, I mean, but you know, he's We're not used to seeing him get blood on his hands, he's ordering other his lackeys to do his dirty work, to do evil things.

But to see him point blank kill shoot someone in the head and for it to be it's not like, oh, this is some other superpowered person that he's you know, like torturing or whatever.

It's just an innocent civilian, you know, like and just bam, like right into that wide shot of it.

You know, Like that to me was a moment of just like, oh wow, like this is Lex Luthor's.

Yeah, there's some silly stuff and funny comic East, but like, yeah, he's not he's not messing around.

You know, this is straight up evil Lex Luthor moment.

I understand the story mechanics of why when everything you're saying, I just did, like my heart did not connected my head with any of these things that they can describing me.

And so, Sir Jared Mooney, Okay, he'd been on the podcast a couple of sisodes ago.

He made a post about this recently on Twitter, and I totally understood.

He was saying, He's like, yeah, we killed this guy, but it's like he's not important enough for like to ruin the good vibes, which this movie is so interested in.

And I think that he nailed us.

He was a non character, and that's that's why it annoyed me.

It's like, well, if you had like literally brought someone in that was important to Superman.

Like Daily Trentet's daft, perhaps, yes, like.

I could have got that.

But also he shoots him and it's undercut with one of those annoying James Gun jokes of Oh, I thought that it was gonna last longer.

See, Luke, you put me in the position, look where I have to defend James Gun in his comedy, which I hate to do.

But I actually enjoyed that quite a bit because what I was desperate for.

Let's know, this is good, let's let's explore this.

What I was what I was desperate for was something to latch onto with, like a personality from this Lex Luthor who I found personality less for the most of the movie, and for him to like, Wow, I thought that would last the longer.

I'm like, h like, I let like that.

In the scene where he knocks the stuff over.

He's like, pick that up, pick that up.

Yeah, I was desperate like that for just any sense of like more than just plot function.

This Lex Luthor was and those moments made those for me.

So yet again I find myself defending wedged in comedy, which I.

Will I will throw I will also throw in just to say one totally agreed in terms of adding like character and personality.

And also too, I think that even though it is a moment of gallows humor, I don't feel like like, at least for me, when I was watching it, I didn't feel like, oh, this is comedic.

I felt like this is I felt like this is sickening, like and you're seeing it from Superman's point of view, someone who's such a psychopath, that that's his reaction to killing someone, you know.

It's some of its parts.

There are so many undercuts that this just becomes for me, it becomes just another undercut.

And also if Lex is a genius who can somehow predict Superman's movements and then play battleship with him and and and overpower him, how does he not know that a six shooter what the probabilities are of using that as as well?

That's that's no, I mean, I think, Luke, that's no.

I think that's that's absolutely correct.

But I think it kind of goes to show that it's like for Lex's this, Lex's I guess brand of genius.

It's like, you know, it's the masterminding, it's the it's the the plotting out of intricate you know, scientific mad scientists, crazy stuff.

Right.

But then it's like with something as simple as that, you know, he's not He's not the type of guy to go out like just shooting people.

And he's like he's you know, he's a rich, evil mastermind.

He's like, this is kind of out of his element.

You know.

He's like, oh yeah, like.

Yeah, you almost seem like a Sherlock moment where Sherlock doesn't understand the like the way the Earth you know, rotates around the sun.

You know, yeah, you almost need but then but made but then the film needed that though it needed it needed some disconnect between like the everyday stuff to make me baby buy into why he would slip on something like that.

Right.

I suppose that is interesting because this likes with relatively that he invented and created this pocket universe.

I'm like, oh, what's that's because I I grab it because I'm used to the I'm more of the multimedia.

That that's how I came into these characters.

That's my primary function, even dc AU that is multimedia, right, even though it's television.

To me, that's the gold, that's the gospel of all these characters University.

Yeah.

So I like the Lex luthor who's that because I know in the comics sometimes they go there like he know, it's a twelfth level intellect and he can create all this stuff.

And I'm like, ah, I can't really relate to him as much anymore, and I much prefer like the Smallville Lex who like is yeah, is like a person who he hires people who are smart because that's what you do yourself with people smart.

Now, he's he's a sharp guy and he can read like he can read people and miss all that stuff, right, But I don't want him to be able to like and I built this in my lab and you know what I'm saying, that's not the Lex.

I gravitate too, And I think, I guess what we're porning.

So they're taking a little bit of everything because this movie is a melting pot of everything we've seen before with the James Gunn finish on it totally.

Yeah, Yeah, that's like, well, yeah, it's like it's interesting because yeah, it's like I think that that like what we're talking about was like small Ville Lex being more relatable, like he, yes, he's a genius, but he's he's grounded and some reality, right, like he's you know, uh and and but at the same time, you know, there's the side of me that is like, oh, I always love in the comics like reading you know, crazy you know, genius level intellect Lex and like and that stuff.

So it was fun to really see them go like so like they actually went more mad scientists than I imagine, and I really like that because to me, it's like I love when I love when Lex is an evil businessman, you know, like Smallville and uh and you know the animated series and John Shay, and I love when he's a mad scientist.

And to me, my favorite is an amalgam of the two, when it's like he's a he's a mad scientist who happens to be business savage exactly.

That's why I love Berthday.

To me, I like the the the evolution of him, and that's potentially what the sequel is doing, right, Like late stage Lex Luther is like he's done all this stuff and now he's like crazy gown the run at a battlesuit, Like, I mean, yeah, kind of early to do that in the second film, but so m'd argue that killing Superman was kind of really in the second film.

Last time doing the same things was alast circle.

No joke.

I thought he was gonna be in the battlesuit in this one because of all the like yeah, and like, oh and there's like a toy of him.

There's always there's always a toy.

He's never there's always a toy.

Super returns probably been a toy that ro.

To the point that Luke made about like and that you made Zach about like this nobody character being the one who gets shot by Lex, you know, and like how that kind of took away the impact to you guys.

And I totally totally get that.

And at the same time, I kind of feel like, to me, it emphasizes even more what what Lex Luthor like symbolizes that it's like he like he doesn't need to bring in like he doesn't need to bring in Lois and kill her.

I mean, like, of course, if he knew, right, like if he knew about Lois and Clark, he would no doubt do that, right, it would be like Eisenberg throwing her off the building, you know.

But like but he doesn't know in this one, right, So it's like he doesn't but he doesn't need that moment.

I think it's like having an innocent civilian who is a nobody really to the story, but somebody who just believes in Superman and it's like, oh yeah, like he's a nobody to Lex, you know, and just like he's a nobody in the greater scheme of the story, but Superman is like, no, that's a somebody like that was a person, you know.

Like so like that's why I think that moment like hit for me.

You know what.

I I this might and Luke maybe you would agree with me on this.

I feel like all that would have worked better if we weren't in some really weird, like sci fi ridiculous environment, right, Like we could do all the things you're describing.

Yeah, and like Superman's over here in a kryptonite cell and there's a guy over here in a warehouse, and but instead where this weird tetrisy pocket dimension, right, And I think that I don't know, see, but some people gravitated towards that, like you're saying it is.

I'm not gonna argue it's not comic book accurate, right, I mean this stuff the comics all the time.

Right, Sometimes there's a reason you don't see, Like I think the Superman robots are dumb.

I don't think they should exist.

I don't I think they should.

If you're gonna have a Superman robot should be like an alien like I don't know, like Man of Steel or like a Superman Doomsday of the Animan movie, like an alien robot like one of them.

They don't run around with Superman symbols and numbers and all that, Like who made these robots?

I don't know, like whatever, Right, I'm just saying, like there's a reason we haven't seen those before, and there's a reason we don't go to these weird pocket of inches of a Superman like, I don't know.

It's a big so I don't know, Like like that, the the the environment is so heightened beyond our heightened reality.

I'm not everything doesn't have to be Chris Nolan around here, right, Yeah, but I don't tone it back a little bit and maybe that more grounded human stuff will play.

But what do you think?

I agree.

I think I think it's again it goes back to something we mentioned earlier, and that is just there a there are too many people and and there's there's it's just that lack of depth.

And if we had a few, maybe a couple more scenes, maybe Superman regularly goes to this falafel guy's cart, you know what I mean, like just something, you know, maybe maybe maybe something or or I wouldn't even give a If Lex knew who Clark, who Superman was, you know, and knows that Clark goes to this.

Guy, I would have been very interesting.

I should add the two people who saw the song with me, neither one is a comic book guy ish, not like crazy, but like he's you know.

One of those crazy.

As.

He's not like he's not like deeply embedded in like Superman Louries.

He's more like Watchmen.

And I've read The Dark Knight Return.

Yes, my wife knows nothing about comics.

Right this this scene, all three of us walked out being like, what did you We had to think about who he was.

After the fact, we're like, oh that was the oh yeah, that was that guy.

Oh oh right, okay, cool.

Anyway, Yeah, top gear meme.

Milk bone is there for every come to your boy forevery you want to treat, Yeah, home for every good boy, for Superman's best friends, treat your dog like a superhero with milk Bone, and don't miss Superman in theaters July eleventh.

We're being kind of reliding towards some negativity here.

Let's let's bring it back a little bit, Luke, talk about Lowis, talk about Lewis some low I think Lewis was great.

I think issues the potential to be the best movie Lois.

I think what are your thoughts, Luke, I.

Don't want to be too negative on on on our dear Rachel.

I think aesthetic.

I think personality wise.

I think in chemistry wise, between her and David Courts.

Why I was you could feel that there was a Superman and Lowis thing happening.

It felt there was something there she you know, she has that kind of spunky, go get him personality.

So I liked again this is I liked in concept what was being presented.

My problem isn't with her, but it's just I she needed, she needed more to do than just magically being able to fly.

Mister terrific space circle and just because it's intuitive, Like I like, I was so frustrated.

Sorry, I'm going back to negative, but.

Like so I tried to set you up ahead.

This was a really cool setup in the film, and that is that was their their fight at the beginning.

I love and she interviews him.

She's get this, she gets this story, and she does nothing with it.

Lois Lane would have put that out.

There, you know, that's a great point.

I didn't that.

Story mixed with his sup with with Lexi's nabbing of his super of his of his parents' message, whether it's real or not.

Like, what a double whammy to knock the public consciousness of an approval of Superman's.

Leaders and he sit here to take us over.

Yeah.

Yeah, more than anything that actually happens, those two things combined would have been the perfect double hitter that would have knocked him down and and other than you know, And I'm like, I'm like, that's.

What you needed Lois to do.

She needed to do be proactive with her story.

She's gonna get the story no matter what, no matter what it means to her boyfriend, no matter what it means a Superman.

Because She's all about just getting the story out.

You could see that was there in this lowest but they didn't take it to its I would say natural conclusion.

That would have been really impactful for the overall I think story.

So I like her, but I think there was there was more they could have done.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I think that in terms of like her, like her journalism and you know, the story, like getting the story like that.

I can definitely see what you mean.

I think that, like with the with the Superman interview, it's like, well, it's interesting because I feel like they're they're showing us these different sides of her, right that she is the hard hitting interviewer who will ask the really difficult questions and doesn't care and will do that, you know.

But at the same time, there's this the vulnerability of Lois that she does love Superman and you know, doesn't want to do anything that will hurt him.

So it's like that she's torn in this very impossible position.

But it would have been cool to your point, like if maybe that was like a dilemma we got to see her wrestle with of like do I publish this do I not?

And then maybe to see more of the investigation intellects and to see that that build up.

At the same time, I will say I think besides Erica Durance, I think she's she is my favorite Lois.

I think in terms like I just feel like she just nails the personality so much, and there's something with the there is something I don't know, like with the chemistry of the two of them.

It just it feels so like like to what you said, like it feels it does feel like out of a comic book.

It feels so right, and it kind of just feels and I love that just that idea of just starting it in media res and just like, yeah, she knows who he is, and there's that playful banter of yeah they've been you know, fooling people together for a while and that kind of a thing, you know, and no joke like when that first moment, you know, she comes into the kitchen and then like he's making the breakfast for dinner, and then like they have their little banter and then start kissing and stuff like that.

Like I had a little tear in my eye, like it just it really was like it felt like just pure Lois and Clark, like personified.

You know, and and later when they're flying in the air, you know, like at the very end and stuff like that.

I also like that she did get to be active in the Justice Gang, you know, that she got to be active in that plot line of like, you know, it's not always just Superman inspiring the heroes, but that she could be the one to be like, what are you guys doing, Like you're just sitting around doing nothing, you know, and she can actually inspire you know.

Well, her and mister Terrifics, you know, side quest was fun because Mos Terrific.

I think it is a great character and he's one of the best characters in the movie.

Even their interaction where she's like, yeah, you know, I was I was gonna break up with him, and he just kind of like, I do not care.

I do not Yeah, but that was no, that was what.

Yeah, pairing up was great.

To Luke's point, I do think her like just okay, I'm gonna fly her on the mis Terrific car.

It's just like they're like, oh, we have to give them all something to do with the end.

I'm like, well, not really, like you just invented all these daily you did invent them.

You you cast them and you put them in your movie, all these daily plants characters that didn't then put them on a spaceship and fly around out.

Steve Lombard has a great one Riders.

Why don't I have a seat to one of the funniest lines of the movie.

But I'm like, what the bron troop doesn't have one line of dialogue.

It's just strange.

So but but I mean, is that is that the guy who's in the back of the vehicle, who is that you're talking about?

Yeah, he doesn't say anything there.

I mean, since we're on this, I just gotta say it right now.

Since we're on it, why does Perry take Lois Jimmy sports and Gossip and some guy?

Well she well he did ask how many seats there are and was like five six, and they're only five.

That's why I seem now Metropolis was under Metropolis was under a mandatory evacuation.

That's why they had to leave.

Everyone else had to go out the normal way.

Yeah, but these are the Berry's favorite employees.

No, there was no reason to bring still Steve Lombard whoever on this trip?

Absolutely right now.

But but here's the thing, right, I mean, it became I mean, Amy Adams became running around showing up at things at the end of those movies like what are you doing?

Like, so we gave Lois thing to do here?

Now, Yeah, movie wise, I'd say the same thing about Jeffrey Wright, right is Commission Gordon?

I think he was great.

Gary Oldman's the gold standard.

I can't give it to Jeffrey Wright until he's get one or two more movies under his belt.

He potentially could be better than Gary Oldman.

Now, Marco Kidder not the best Lowest Lane, but to me, the best movie Lowis Lane.

Give Rachel another movie or two, she can easily take that spot again.

Much like Lex TV reigned supreme with Lois as well, you know what I mean?

Yeah, you have Erica Rantz, Terry Hatcher, Bitsy Tall like these are fantastic.

Same thing with Lex right, John Jay, Michael Rosenmom, John Cryer.

You know, I really like him his Lex So he's great, Yeah, better than Nicholas Holt, right, Am, I right?

Am?

I right?

He knows what I'm talking about.

So Nicholas holdn't have a scene with Tom Willing Roca all right, So, uh no, the Lois is great that's like I just wanted more.

Yes, I want to hit on a couple of things real quick before we wrap up here.

The music, all right, roka you you love the music?

Is that correct?

I love the music.

I'm hoping for a vinyl for Christmas.

What I love about the music is that, you know, kind of like what I said about the trailer, like when when that won me over with the original theme, uh, you know, but done in this more contemporary guitar riff kind of kind of a way, like you know that that more electric version of the the iconic score of John Williams.

Like that's what I really felt like, like sort of the music was you know.

James Gunn is so known for his soundtracks, and with this he had talked about the trepidation of sort of leaning into score more than soundtrack, you know, like uh reading and but I think in a way he's sort of he's doing the same thing, but like with but with score, Like he's using pieces of music that existed before the way that he's done in his other movies, Like he's using the Superman theme and pieces of the Superman theme, and he's recontextualizing it and and giving it to a modern audience.

So it's like, I think he's using score in a way.

It's you know, it's like the Tarantino thing where he uses like Inio Morricone and then he puts it in like you know, in his films, right in his westerns and he does a different spin on it or whatever.

But like it to me, it.

Is, didn't he use the unused score from like the Thing in the Hate Flat and yeah?

Yeah, yeah, Hate Blake?

Yeah?

And that was actually that was the only movie he hired a composer, and that was Enio Morriconi himself, and then and then they were like, he was like, oh, can we put the thing from the score from the Thing in there too?

You did?

I mean, it worked, it worked great obviously.

So so look where do you land on the score for James Gunn Super Bad?

I think in moments it works.

But I I like to listen to scores.

I don't.

I can't listen to like, you know, songs with lyrics while I work.

So I like to you know, put scores together.

And I also like to do like mood board scores, you know, like like like lists playlist and me too.

You know, there are some there are some some tracks that I like, but but I think, I mean, I'm also just a little bit lukewarm on the score.

Like I like the I like the concept, I like I like aspects of it, but I think I think maybe a bit like the Man of Steel score, it never it never takes off, and I kind of listen waiting for the If you're gonna use John Williams at some point, you might as well just go full John Williams at you know, even if you're doing an electric Yeah, go full John Williams gets something big and boisterous, just go there.

And I think not having that big, proper just moment under like it just kind of doesn't make it play as well.

Like because so for example, I had this video of my daughter where she's playing inside the laundry basket and I'm filming her while she's you know, through a little slata pick it up, and I have the I have the seventy eight score on vinyl, and the the theme was played.

Yeah, it's wonderful.

The theme was playing, and it got to like the bah a bit like the big, big moment and she you can see the video of her eyes clock and then she bursts up out of the out of the basket and she's like Superman, super Man, and that's so cool and I love it and I but I feel like this score wouldn't give a kid that reaction because it's just sort of too slow and and uh, you know sway.

I suppose I call like the top Gun Superman.

It's like it's like John Williams via top Gun like brown An, Yeah, I again like taking like I would prefer them not to use John Williams at all if this is how they're gonna use it, because John Adman did such a fantastic job, super returns just do that like that's could that be the bestman's score?

I mean, it's sacrilege because it's based off of John Williams.

You can't do that without the bones of John Williams.

But there's a way to upgrade and do the fan fair and all that.

And I was I was waiting for the go full John Williams, like I said, like I was waiting for that the whole time, broken, and I was disappointed that it didn't like kick in the high Year, like even when you see like the the ass at the beginning, it's like it was like, like, give us give us, give us the shirt rip.

I can't shirt rip in this party.

James Gunny keeps his costume in a suitcase, which is whatever.

But like, I like, I don't know, like that to me, I was disappointed by the score as well.

It's it's it's funny because we you know, because my brother rewatching, you know, watching Smallville, as I talked about my me and my mom rewatch for like the Bazilion time, you know, multiple episodes, and we got and we watched the finale, which is a whole other conversation.

But the shirt rip moment and the John Williams theme kicking in right there, you know, it's like that that that really heavy lifting.

That yeah, it really does, you know.

And but I personally I felt what you guys are saying was last.

But he's the buildings like that there it is.

That's as close as it guy.

It's like, yes, I agree, I agree with that, Yes, yes, yeah, Well.

What do you guys think of the the Lex Luthor theme?

By the way, I thought it was very, very sinister and I liked it a lot, but.

I couldn't tell you what it was.

I'm sorry.

I will say this.

I will say this much much much to the point, but you know, kind of the you guys point.

You know, I really like the theme.

I think it's very sinister, very cold, Like if you watch it, you know, it's like when he's.

Oh it.

Going through?

Is that?

Is that the theme that everybody thought was the Batman theme online for like a week.

Because I wouldn't be surprised they were.

They were leased.

No, they released the sound straps of track seven.

And people like, oh it was close enough to know Batman and people yes, it's like and I've seen tweets about this and like, this is embarrassing that people thought this were Okay, I remember it now.

It's for understated.

Yeah, very yeah, very understated and sinister and cold, which which fits really for the character.

I will say, if if I had to pick uh to me, my favorite Lex Luthor theme of any movie and also one of my favorite Zimmer scores is the Eisenberg Lex Luthor.

Yeah that kind of that the top.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Well even even Superman returns and John Autman he made the new Lex Luthor score like that when when Currant's lifting the continent and he merges the Superman and the Lex Luthor themes together.

Like that's so good, that's so that's the thing, Like that's the thing, and I do want to leave on this.

Actually I said I had a couple of things.

This made me think of another half thing and then will be one of the final thing.

But like if there were like what is what would be a moment I've heard people just yeah, I got the blu Raid.

I put it in.

I went right to the steed and I watched it first.

Like I'm not one to do that with movies, but if if you were one to do that with, like I keep referencing Summer returns to me, it'd be the plane Riscue obviously epic.

Yeah, So for this film, Roca, what what would you go to first to watch?

Like?

What what would keep you coming back?

Oh?

I got to see that scene again.

The scene lives rent free my head.

I have to experience it as soon as I can.

What would that be?

Love that?

Uh, there's there's so many moments I feel.

Like the whole fa the whole thing.

From the beginning.

I do think I do think one of those type of moments that stands out to me that I really I really love coming back to and I would love on the Blu Ray to continue to revisit because you know how much I'm all about the Lex versus Superman dynamic and that moment when they're having their sort of like to me, you know, I know you might be saying there's too much back and forth and speech of bying, but like it's so comic book to me that that whole moment from like when you know Superman is you know, fighting is two goons and the black goo is going into his mouth and Lex has that Nichols hole had that has that great like expression of just like blissful smoking smoke.

Yes he's yeah watching it, and it's like that was like a pure Lex moment and everything there going forward of their their back and forth like the Holts like monologue, you know, because because it's what I love too, is like we're so used to like Lex if they're having justifications for his behavior and I prefer what he does, yes, like yeah, yeah, like, but I really like him actually having this moment.

The one thing I will say is I think he should have not been around his hench people when he admitted that he's but but I love him actually just straight up.

No, of course I'm driven by envy and that whole like monologue him him calling Galileo and Einstein, you know, like basically saying they're like lesser intellect and all of that moment.

And that's fine.

He should know.

There's a common book where he like, like Superman takes him out of prison to go visit like Albert Einstein's.

Yeah, right, and he has.

Such reverence because it's like Albert Einstein's would have been a one hundredth birthday or something, and Superman gives him that gift.

And this one he's like, if I'm Stein, he's nobody.

I'm like, oh, that's not comic cackerate at all anyway, not that that again, nothing comic Cockers made.

This is I've been saying.

But anyway, I just like that's a that's a good call though, Like if he like in public he has this persona persona with all his people, like his culture personality, but then like him instrument in a room privately, he's just laying it all out there, you know, right.

Yeah, it's like that's okay.

Well that that that goes to to me, that goes all the way through that whole Superman coming and having his whole his whole monologue, their interplay in the climate accident at the end, Okay, we're here Progressive's accident response, detected an accident and sent for help.

Did we beat him?

We're Superman saving the world?

Maybe?

Sweet?

Yeah, I don't think car insurance is really his thing, not with us around already called a toll truck that started to climb.

I guess not all heroes wear capes.

Yep, somewhere Tommy capes.

So what don't say things.

Like that out loud?

Yeah, it's embarrassing.

Okay, people looks like we got another one.

Let's move follow me, wait for me.

Wait what about you, Luke?

What would you what would you go to?

Are you credits?

No?

No, no, no, no no no.

I'm not that cynical.

I can beat sometimes.

I probably the interview scene.

Yeah, either either the interview scene or or the other kind of intimate moment where they are or Superman is kind of well the from the picture of the first picture they released where they're fighting outside, but they it's it's just there are two moments where I'm getting character.

Yes, and I'm more about character than action.

I like action, but as long as the character service is it and so those those two scenes I think be one of those two maybe a coin toss.

I think that's cool.

Well, I mean you both mentioned character.

I mean interplay between Lex and Superman and interplay between Clark and lewis absolutely you know.

I I would go to the interview scene as well, you know, because it's like but even at the end, like like just the domestic like disagreement they have, like we can relate to that on some level.

It's like, you know, just walking out, He's like, I'm believing, like I don't know that that was that's we haven't seen that looking for things we haven't seen before, Like we haven't seen that kind of angle of the relationship.

Yeah.

Great, I would go to the scenes relate, which is like mumbling like I just have a relationships.

Yeah, Like it's so good.

He's like, what'd you say?

Like that was that was a that was a very real scene.

I feel the most real scenes very absolutely.

No, that's great.

And again like we we like girls and where we lamb of the film, like Clark like Lois like those interactions.

So yeah, and that's and again for all the things we're saying like I'm I'm there day one day zero for the sequel, and DC has my money, and I'm like looking forward because look, I don't need this to be I don't need the sequel to be the Dark Knight, right, because I mean I like Batman McGinn's more than James on Superman for example, Right, but the next movie just taking it all to the next level.

That could That's possible.

So I'm I'm that's all hoping for.

So I do I do want to, I do want to in with this?

What where did we fall on ultraman Roca?

Did you predict that, oh, well, that's going to be Supermanquline the whole time, like I think everybody did.

And and how did you feel about the execution of that entire situation?

I yeah, I thought he was going to be the entire time.

But I but I was what I was looking at was as I'm in that I'm ax packed theater.

I was, I was looking at general audiences and thinking I knew this, but but I'm like, this is really fun to see this play out as like a twist for general audiences and as a non twist for comic book people, you know, like so to me, like like I watched it with my mom right like the second time I saw it, sorry, third.

Time, mais.

Yeah, I saw it with my mom and my dad and like and my mom was like wait what, Matthew, what, what's what like?

And she was like, oh what, like all surprised, you know, and it was like that was really fun because to me, it was like I love those kind of moments in comic book movies where it's like like the tal Talia thing where it's.

Like, yeah, you love you love the thing.

Well, I'm not saying I love.

I love those moments where it's like yeah, we we we the nerds, but you have to ask more questions.

Do you are you a James Bond fan?

I have a James Bond fan?

Did you like I don't know you like the.

Low filled reveal in in uh specter?

See see the did you like the con reveal?

And it start taking a dark and see I I categorize these all as the same, like, oh, thank you for finally catching up to what I knew when I released the first promo image of these characters.

I don't know.

That's that's why try to fool us though, Worke.

I mean that was kind of because like, Okay, so anyway it worked for you, you liked it.

Well, here's the reason why too, because I liked that for the general audience, it further cemented the lex as evil, scientific, madman, mastermind, archetypal thing like the you know, all it took was a strand of hair and that he obsessively combed through all of the wreckage of every fight scene grabbed that made the DNA, you know.

And I liked that it wasn't just like a the battle is done in this one, because you know, he gets trapped in that thing that's like phantom zone whatever, like when you know, Superman pushes him and he gets trapped in the things.

So it's like, I like that there's the room to explore that more because they.

Think people seem very polarized on this, like as far as what they thought, like, oh, they just killed that guy.

I'm like oh, and then people like, oh, no, he's in the pocket, Emitch is gonna come back, and I'm leting people like are you seriously.

It's interesting to see people walk away like with totally different ideas of like oh no, it's he's gonna come back as Bizarro the next movie, and people like no, he's dead.

Bro Like people who didn't believe in each camp, I was.

Surprised that anyone thought he he killed him.

But I mean the other side, people thought, oh yeah, so what do you What do you think, Luke.

Well, I mean I I don't he should have just been Bizarro.

I mean, come on, well, he should have.

He should have evolved into Bizarro.

Yes, what didn't what didn't again?

What didn't track for me is the opening of the movie has him in his little his little domed helmet, being like, I, who is doing that voice?

If he's such an idiot?

I thought that was I thought it was Lex.

No, I thought it was Lex through a microphone, but then rewatching it today, Lex tells something in the beginning, he's just copy.

I'm like, oh, so he he can't talk, he can't understand, so that's a misting.

Also like if if he could beat Superman within an inch of his life at the beginning of the movie, right, why why is now weakened Superman back from kryptonite poisoning able to defeat him?

And uh the engineer?

Right?

Also, Superman is an idiot in this he is as dumb as legs.

He's stupider than you, if that's possible.

That's another that's actually another good legs with him lied.

You know, I love that job than you because this whole time is in FI.

This guy he hasn't realized all these little like cameras are floating around.

He's like, oo are you watching him with these cameras?

Like, bro, he's been watching with the cameras the whole time.

You just noticed him.

Okay, we're going off.

We're going off, We're going off.

But but Luca, I like, so you think you just should have been straight up a zarrow.

I do I I The reveal was was not a surprise, And the minute that they walked up to the fortress and opened up, I was like, well, I wonder who the masked man is going to be.

Like it was just like six foot for a guy with a symbol on his chest with super Strike and eat vision.

Yeah, all right, there's a most See.

This is why I think like they just like tone stuff like cut shave stuff down and got more to the base elements of things like the scene where they crashed through you know, when they crash back down and they're in like this this subway or wherever they are, and like you see Ultramatet like crawling his way up like boom bom, Like, oh, here we go.

That should be like the moment where like the in the Terminator, the First Terminator where the truck blows up and then and then you think the Terminator's dead, but then he comes out.

He's his skeleton and like, oh my god.

Right, but like what we go into and this is the pacing issue, Like we go into like we're talking Alex and then the Raptors show up and we're talking Alec more and we're fighting someone.

Here comes scripto, Like just distill that.

Like budget, I wish they had less of a budget.

Yeah, as they did, they end up doing too much stuff and then ultimately this is this is the last point he went to end on about Ultraman specifically, like if this movie, this movie I think at its core is is like about identity.

So that's that's the the thing I latched onto what I think they were trying to, you know, the theme if there was one, right, Yeah, and what a missed opportunity to have Like Superman and ultramat like he's questioning his own identity and why his parents thought I'd send him here and all that stuff, and he's facing a dark mirror of himself.

And at no time, but before he was like, hey, there's not too late, and then all right, great, right, but but now he's facing this dark mirror of himself, like he doesn't try to appeal to him, he doesn't try to talk to him, he's just just beating him up.

Like that's such a missed opportunity.

I just seem like the misspoint, Like if that's the theme, right, like, you don't have to be with I don't want to.

I'm not going to be what my parents sent me here for.

You don't have to be with luth I.

I don't want to rewrite the thing here.

I'm sure quarterbacking, but I just feel like that was just a there's no again one ultraman one dimensional at this point.

Like so that's that's the last thing I wanted to say.

What do you guys, what do you guys think about that?

That?

That's that's a really good point.

You're you're totally right.

Yeah, it's like they could have, you know, again Smallville, but they could have had that that kind of interaction.

Right where Clark Redeem's ultramate in I don't know look at you know, you didn't you didn't you weren't as hot on it as either.

So what what are your anything with?

I mean, do you feel like if they added more depth that would have worked more for you?

I think again, I think this is the problem that I have is there's so much going on, Like we have this Pocket Universe, we have the Justice Gang, we have this war going on, we have the Kaiju going on.

Then we have uh this this message from the parents going on.

There's so many things happening that, you know, a much more interesting story could have been after math of a fight.

Lexco's gets some DNA, creates a bunch of clones, and you know, one one eventually works and then you're Then then you really are dealing with identity.

You are, you are?

You know Lois is doing whatever she's doing.

There's you know, you can you can you can do something a little bit more with that concept.

But because there's so much thrown into it, the Ultra Man reveal was like, well, I saw it coming and and then it's real.

It's reveal was just sort of like, all right, how much more?

How much more we gotta go?

Well, it's like it's like like you mentioned Talio Roka.

It's like it happens so close to the end, what does it even mean.

It's like, okay, we got ten minutes left and now they're dead universe right, so it's like there's not even wait for that to happen now, I and I think we didn't even mention Justice Gang any of this stuff.

Like this movie suffers from trying to set up other things.

And I know James Gunna has said, well, no, this is its own film.

It's not supposed to set up.

But of course it's setting up.

Why is the Justice Gang here?

Why is super Girl show up at the end?

You're setting up the universe.

And if you not concern yourself with that, you could have you could have like honed down on more of like this particular story.

And that's the thing, like I don't.

I look at this movie and I'm like, it's it's mid It's okay.

I enjoyed it for certain things, other things like I can thor is much better than this?

Come on?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, James Gunn Superman well two is much worse.

This is the Goldilocks.

This is just right.

Yeah.

I do compare this to a Marvel movie, though, like MCU Superman is how I describe this to people, which is that fair broke up me.

You're a big fan, but but you think that's a fair description.

I can.

I can definitely understand the comparison for sure, with like the the comedy, the action, you know, like the kind of just throwing you right into like the action beats and stuff like that.

To me, I mean maybe it's a bias thing too, just with like how much I connect with the character, you know, Superman.

But like to me, it's like like I enjoy Marvel movies.

You know, I'm not you know, being Scorsesey about them.

I enjoy I enjoy many of them.

But it's like maybe for me though, it's like I connect so much more emotionally with James Gunn Superman, and I don't necessarily know if it's only the fact that I connect more with the character, or if it's also something with guns style that I connect with, because I connect more with the Guardians movies than any Marvel movie, Like Guardians two is probably my favorite Marvel movie, which is like most people, you know, I don't know if that's like a popular it's.

At the top, and it's for me do you like the second one one of the first one, though, I think that's a hot take.

I do.

I do, actually because I love Kurt Russell and Lars the ego character, and it makes sense the song Brandy, Uh, you know, I can never hear that without Yeah, You're the sailor and the sea.

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, guys, here it is.

We have another Superman movie in the cannon here, right.

So it's gonna be up on the show.

I'm gonna get it because this is what I do.

I'm gonna put on my shelf right next to all the other ones.

We'll see how often or not I watch this.

And I've watched it a third I'm good for a while.

Now.

I watch it on HBO Max today and I've seen it three times.

Now, are you excited for the sequel?

Luke, let's start with you.

By the end of this film, I sort of walked out when we all walked down and we digested and we've talked about it.

My reaction was, I think Supergirl will be something I watch at home.

So it it really depends on the what the next trailers look like, you know, they they kind of have to resell it to me.

Because based off this, I one thing I just want I want to add onto those wells.

Briefly, we watched this film, and I know that there's the ideology off at the end, and I'm just as human as you, but that really wasn't thematically baked into the story as well as I would have liked.

And I kept thinking of like Iron Man one and that scene where Pepper Potts brings him his first arc reactor chess piece thing and it says Tony proof that Tony Stark has a heart.

And we start from the beginning that movie, who's like a chauvinistic guy to being a hero, you know, powering down all of his weapons, not wanting you know, all that kind of stuff.

And I just kind of felt like, you know, that film tells, you know, tells me a story of this guy and and where he comes from, and it has a nice clear arc, and I'm you know, I'm like, I Superman needed an arc in this, and I don't think there was a clear enough arc.

And that's partly why by the end of it, I just thought, well, I don't really care because like there's no consequence, there's no Lois is right in that interview scene where she's dogging him for some of his pre I mean, he's he admits that he pins ahead of state an ally by the way, to quote Superman, because he says by the way like forty times in that in that in that scene pins him to a cactus.

Which at least he didn't murder him like Hawker All did.

Well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

But you're just sort of like, Okay, maybe he needed to learn that he has these powers.

He can be intimidating, but that's not that's not the way he should be that.

That's almost like he's following in the footsteps of his parents without really realizing it.

And they never really pick up on that.

And perhaps they could intererogate that in a sequel.

Look, that's my hope, my mabe.

The shortcomings here, I'm like, please tap into some of this, and they're listening to all your.

Podcasts so they can get all these that I'm sending them.

I'm setting them in.

That's a great point because it sets up like that's interesting, that's an interesting, uh conundrum for him to deal with, right, and then they just I don't know, let's just have the justice gang kill all those guys.

It's fine, so okay, fair enough.

So so Rogo, you were assumably are hyped for the sequel.

Of course, Well, I wanted to say for one thing like that I didn't really get to I don't think talk about that much.

Was just with like David Corn sweats Superman.

One of the reasons that I'm so hyped about this movie and about the sequel, And it's just like we've talked about Holton, we talked to you know, we talked about you know, all of the different characters, Like I feel like.

He is.

To me the most spirit embodiment of Superman from the pages that I have seen pretty much in a film is since like Christopher Reid, like and I actually think that.

And by the way, that's also I'm saying that as someone who loves Brandon Routh, who loves Henry cavill, I have no uh, you know, oh this is not my Superman like that kind of thing.

Like I love these different takes.

I feel like his take just speaks to me the most as again talking about film Superman like uh, in terms of really feeling like the character and when the from the comics and truly connecting with him, and way back when I saw you know, clips of him and that show Hollywood, I was like, my brother was watching the show and he's like, dude, this is Superman and like look at that, and I was like, I know, it's crazy.

So just the casting of that is kind of the anchor to me that kind of holds all the rest of the film together and the heart and soul of it embodied through him.

And so I think that I'm really excited for wherever they go from there that I do, you know, to you guys's points, it's like, I do think that there's more room to explore and expand and like deepen the characters and enrich and dive a little bit deeper, a little bit underneath the surface more and you know, get to more interest, you know, some more interesting conflicts and ideas.

But I do think the to me, like the foundation is all there in this one, and then it's like it just can expand from there.

So I'm super psyched.

Of course, Yeah, I'm looking forward to a sequel for the same reasons.

It's like, you know what, everything's fine and it's kind of show, but like if we keep going, we're gonna we're gonna build deeper foundations and get deeper in these characters and more challenging themes, like can we can we just shrink down the story a little bit?

No Justice Gang the sequel, make it truly If it's what's to be promised and teased, Alex Superman team up against something brainiac, maybe like that could solve a lot of things.

More of that and lean into more.

John Williams just basically hired John Optman to do the music.

That's those of the if I know it's among other things.

But uh so, guys, this has been a lot of fun.

I think we had a lot of fun going around and around here.

It's fun to hear these different perspectives and points of view, and we all have this character and we're gonna keep watching and keep talking and uh and that's I'm just glad.

Look, Superman is back, and they're gonna keep making the movies.

That's what I've been saying at all and just keep making them stop.

Don't stop stopping for decades or years or whatever, like all the time, they just they always stop.

They don't keep going.

And we're going.

We've got Supergirl, we got Superman, Men at tomorrow coming up, so let's see what happens.

But Luke, if people want to find you in your work out there on theirnet, where can people find you?

Yes, the easiest place to find me is probably through my podcast, which is Mean Streets the Film the War Podcast, where we every week we talk about some some either old classic film in the wir or neo noir and it's it's a lot of fun.

But we're on on the Twitter as Mean Streets PC, and we have a Facebook page and stuff like that.

Probably the easiest place to find me currently, Yes, excellent.

I took a break from Twitter and Instagram, but I waited so long that both accounts were deleted permanently, so I have no actual social media anymore.

Your life is probably better for it, So ro cood, what about you?

If people want to find me, I'm in post production right now on a film called Warte.

We are gearing up for film festival circuit.

I can provide a link to our Indiegogo page and trailer if anyone's interested.

Absolutely, we'll send those to me.

We'll put them in the show notes.

Sweet awesome.

Yeah is always working on something so yeah, I've been seeing it looks cool, man By the way, I'm seeing this stuff coming out your film looking forward to it.

So yeah, but yeah, I just again, I want to thank both of you guys for coming on talking to James Gun Superman with me, and we'll be back here in two years to talk about Superman Man tomorrow.

Am I right?

Yes, yes, maybe Roca don't like it, and you'll like it, Lucas.

I was gonna say that would be the Bizarro universe.

That's all right, we fall into the universe.

All right, Well, there's been a lot of fun guys.

Thanks again, and we'll be back next time talking more Smallville or Superman.

And until then, Always hold on to Smallville and all this other stuff.

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