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What's up, everybody, and welcome in.

This is episode two hundred and twenty four of The Sitdown.

I'm your host, Jeff they Do.

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As football starts today, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna get into another crime topic.

And one of my favorite things to do here on the Sitdown is interview interesting individuals from all over the criminal element, whether it's cops, whether it's FBI, just whether it's mob gangsters.

We do it all here on the show.

And I will say today the guest that I'm about to interview I have wanted to interview for a very long period of time.

I just didn't know where to find him.

Okay, he's not exactly out there.

He is still an active cop.

Okay, he's out there doing things.

But I stumbled across him many years ago on a very interesting documentary.

That BBC put out.

And I'd seen him on all sorts of other things, and I knew that he was an active police officer.

I knew he was doing a lot in like playing clothes and swat and all these different units.

And you know, being from the Philadelphia area, I've always had an interest in, you know, the city of Philadelphia.

It is one of the most dangerous cities the police in the United States, really the world at this point.

And today's subject, we're going to find out more about his career, his life.

His name is Bill Hunter.

He's been a police officer.

And I know he doesn't want to hear this, but but as long as I've been alive, Bill, you've been a police officer for thirty four years.

You've seen it all.

You come from Philadelphia.

You are a Philadelphia man.

You've had a very interesting career in life.

You've been featured on documentaries, You've been You've written a book which I'm going to talk to you about.

You've dealt with some of the worst people, the Philadelphia's pursuit producer from a criminal element.

I appreciate you coming on my show.

I've really wanted to interview for you for a long period of time.

I'm glad to be here.

Good to see.

You, Jeff, thank you so much.

And you know, how does that how does that feel to hear that you've been a cop for thirty four years?

Is that concerning to you?

Yeah?

What's funny is that next month will be thirty four complete.

It's funny when you're in the.

Academy they tell you, hey, this is going to go quick, and you don't think about it then, and here I am thirty four years later.

I'm like, I look back and go they were right, it kind of goes quick.

Where did all the time go?

Right?

Yeah, time goes fast when you're having fun.

You're weird.

I think we all look at our life like that.

You know, I was thinking just last night, it's been it's been almost twenty years since I've been in high school.

You know, that's kind of crazy to me, you know, but hey, as you said, time goes by when you're having fun.

Bill, this is our first time speaking to you.

You know, we've done a few interviews.

Not many.

You are still an active cop.

Right, Yeah?

And I what they call the DROP program.

Okay, so you're you're kind of your thirty years.

I entered the DROP program, which is a four year program.

My Drop will end in June or next year.

So I got about nine months left in my DROP, and the way it works is that that would be my last day, but we're so short handed here in Philadelphia.

They actually offered me an extra year and I accepted it, So I'll see how long I stay after June.

So DROP is essentially kind of it's when you're moving towards retirement and you're kind of, how does that official?

It is the DROP Deferred Retirement Option program.

So what happens is when I got the thirty years, I froze my pension.

Okay, my pension's frozen, and I agree that I can only work four more years, and during them four years you get regular pay, regular raises, whatever it is.

We're getting regular.

But on the side, they already opened an.

Account for me, and every month since I entered the DROP, they put a pension check in that account.

So if I stay till June, there's going to be forty eight pension checks in that account.

If I stay past you in however many months, let's say I do the whole extra year, there'll be sixty pension checks in that account.

And then they hand that over to you.

One lump when you walk away.

It's actually yeah, So all you young people out there, you know, being a cop is you know if you you know, you've done it a long time.

But it is quite a good career.

I mean you you you know.

It obviously has got its dangerous parts to it.

It's you know, it's a hard thing to do, but you know, when you get to a point you know you can retire.

You have a nice check coming in for the rest of your life.

Your family will be taking care of it.

It's a good civil service, public job.

But you from what I know about you and from what I've heard when you were growing up, and you're from Philadelphia, right what corner of our.

New generation city employee wore Butler did twenty five years in the fire department.

My dad did forty five and went to mine well over well over one hundred years.

Between the three of us.

Wow, that's pretty amazing.

So what corner did you grow up on?

Where are you from?

I was born Rightolf nine in Indiana, which is right there next to a cemetery.

I guess it's a it's a historical cemetery with Lucretia.

Mott and Robert Purvis, who are part of the underground railroad and they dedicated that cemetery to them.

I used to actually cut through that cemetery to go to my first grade school, which was Saint Bonaventure's that's right at ninth in Somerset.

I would just I look back and you know, I don't remember the area being bed.

I mean, you're a kid, you know, what do you see when you're a kid.

You know.

Then there came a point when I was in grade school, we moved to another area of the twenty fifth district called Juniata Park.

You know, when I was in Juniata Park, I went to Haway Innocon's And it was probably twenty years later from when I moved.

I came back as an officer, and I guess times that changed in the neighborhood had changed.

Yeah, you see these neighborhoods change.

I mean a lot of the neighborhoods in Northfoili at one point were you know, Irish or German or whatever or you know, and then they become a little different.

You know, different come in the neighborhoods change.

You as a kid, you mentioned the civil service.

You know that some of the people in your family did you always want to be a cop.

Was that always your dream?

No?

I when I first got out of school, I'm wanted seven kids, and Dad couldn't afford.

He couldn't know he was paid seven high school tuitions.

We went to Saint Jose Prep, North Catholic, Little Flowers.

There were seven tuitions there, so if we chose to go to college, we had to pay ourselves.

So what I was doing is I was going to night school, working full time in a steelyard.

And I worked in that steelyard for probably nine years.

Wow.

I was only halfway done Temple.

I went to Temple at night and I was paying myself.

So I'm working, I have a family, I'm paying a mortgage, and I'm coaching wrestling all the same time.

Back in the eighties, that's a pretty busy time for me.

And it might be only before your time, if you would remember.

In the eighties the steel industry started to go under.

A lot of them are moving overseas.

I could see the writing on the wall.

I was only halfway done with Temple, so I'm going okay.

I kind of panted.

My kids were little, so let me take some tests.

I took all kinds of tests.

I took you know, Roman Highs, the Bud Company, Coca Cola, Police Fire.

I did everything I didn't.

It just so happened that the police department they.

Called me first.

And I didn't think I was going to stay.

I figured when I was done Temple, you know, I'm going to move on my I was studying.

To be a gym teacher.

I wanted to be a.

Jim teachers slash wrestling coach because that's what I was doing.

And by the time I finished up, I was like, well, and I was about ninety five.

I finished up.

I was already four years in.

I'm thinking this job is kind of fun.

I think I'm going to hang out for a little while.

And here I am in twenty twenty five about to retire.

Within a year.

That's amazing.

So you when you went into like the requirements to get into the police department at that time, was it simply just signing up, going through the academy.

Obviously some physical test that sort of thing.

There wasn't much to it, though, right, Yeah.

I mean there was a test you had to take, then you came out on the list, and then once you're on the list, they you know, there's a background investigation.

I had to take a polygraph.

They do a neighbor search.

I had a list all the places I lived at.

They went and interviewed like neighbors.

He is, this is a good guy.

He god that whole process, and you know, I got freed out.

Me and my brother took it together.

My brother Joe, we took it together.

He just didn't make it through the process.

Joe was lazy.

So Joe, Bobby didn't show up for something.

That's it.

But he's doing good.

He's doing well, well good.

So you when you were in the academy, did you ever say to yourself, I don't know if I want to do this, you know, being a cops difficult man, you know, whether it's handled a gun or or or any of that kind of stuff.

Well, because I was older, I was in my late twenties, and uh, I kind of knew it was a job.

At that point, I'm looking at it as a job, and it was.

It was.

It was a big break from working in a steelyard because the steilard was pretty physical in the elements.

I'm out there outside a hard hat, climbing on cranes, climbing up girders.

I mean I was.

I was, I was pretty active.

Then I'm sitting in a classroom for five months and once or twice a week they take me into a gym and I got to work out.

I mean, you know what, to me, that was pretty I was heaving.

That's true.

I guess you know, I don't.

You don't think about it.

I mean, being a steeler, that's that's pretty tough, you know, any yard or wherever.

I guess that's true.

It's pretty Let me ask you.

You mentioned like factories kind of leaving the city, right, you know, and I think a lot of people forget about that.

At least this generation or even the one that I'm in.

Philadelphia was a manufacturing hub.

Trenton was as well.

A lot of these cities were.

We see and you look at a place like Kensington.

Kenson had a bunch of factories at one point.

When we look at the history of these places, do you think there's a stark like connection to all those places leave the people that lived in those neighborhoods move out, and we look at the day where Kenson is today.

Do you think if those factories never left, do you think Kenson would be where it is today?

That's a great question.

It's hard to answer that because the times have changed that I remember the factories open.

I was telling someone recently that these corners were all these drugs are sold.

I sold pretzels on the corners.

And the reason I sold pretzels because there was a market for pretzels and there were factor there.

We would go up and down Alleghany Avenue.

At being Alleghany, there's a factory.

You know, there was a you go aunt Gary Avenue this fact we had a little wagon.

We'd walk them down and you go to these different places.

And that's how we made money as a kid.

You know, mom, dad's working.

You know, you went some sneakers, you saw pretzels, and you sold flowers.

That's what you did well.

And you sold pretzels and stuff because there were people on the avenue that were shopping.

I saw a photo of I think it was maybe late seventies of Iva was around kens in Somerset.

It was I mean it looked like, you know, it was like it was people everywhere, people shopping in the stores were vibrant.

But you know, Bill, I've heard this before and I'll mention it to you.

When all these factories left, you know, the one factory they left.

The drug trade, oh yeah, and it was very lucrative for a lot of people.

And now we get to this point and we say what happened here, Well, that's what happened.

The drug walls have changed.

It's you know, it's it.

We keep changing the walls.

What I see, and I don't mean bad at anybody, but they changed laws.

For the criminal.

Now for victims, yeah, that's what seems to happen, and they just protect them more and more.

Which, hey, you know what I mean, it's our constitution.

I get it.

You know, it's like you just got to roll with the punches and figure out how to make it.

Work one hundred percent.

So you go through the academy, you know, you kind of looking at it as this is a nice kind of get away from from the steel yard and that sort of thing.

Eventually you get through the academy.

Do you remember like your mile mile time or anything?

Now?

You know what I do remember is that the average agent when I went through the academy and my class number was two ninety six.

I think right now they're up to like four fifteen, okay, but mine was two ninety six.

The average age was probably about twenty two twenty three.

So I was one of the older guys, and a couple of guys would needle me about Now.

At the time, I was not only coaching wrestling.

I was still competing in wrestling tournaments, so my physical condition was was pretty good.

So when we got a PT, I was no longer the old guy.

Yeah you did what you had to do.

I was the guy who finished number one in every single event.

I respect then, right, yeah, good, so you get out?

Did Is it true that they literally come to you and say where do you want to go?

Is that how it works?

There came a point where I had to transition from a clock to a I had worked with the transit police for a little bit, so I came right back to the academy because now I'm want to get assigned to a district.

And at the time I had went through with a revolver and we had transitioned to block, so I had to go through the block training, which was no problem.

So I go through the block training and now I'm just waiting to be transferred.

And I remember it was a sergeant.

He looked at me and said, so you know you're going to be assigned real soon.

Do you have any preference where you'd like to go?

And at the time, the busiest district in the city was the one who grew up in the twenty fifth So.

I said, well, I'd really like to go to the twenty fifth district.

And I still remember he looked at me and gave me this smirk and start laughing, and he said that might not be a hard call.

So the very next day my orders came across and I was in the twenty fifth district.

And for anyone that's not from this general vicinity, maybe you're from the midwest to the west coast, twenty fifth district is you know, the bad lands Kensington.

It's I mean in the nineties, even when you got into the Forest, a very dangerous county at that time.

At that time, it was the busiest district in the city for drugs, shootings and homicides.

I think over the past twenty five thirty twenty years, maybe it has shifted a little bit.

Yeah, And I'll say right now, the twenty fourth district is probably the busiest.

I mean, I figured out why and we'll talk about that.

But you know, it has shifted from the twenty fifth to the twenty fourth.

I want to issue with the transit, the transit system.

You were caught there.

There are two major lines in Philadelphia.

Broad Street line in the mark of Frankfurt, which goes up into you know, the northeast.

What kind of things are you doing there?

You just kind of simply walking through, like are you you know, hassling you know, telling me the you know, homeless to get what are you doing.

I was assigned to the North broad Street, which was at the time what they called Zone seven.

I wasn't there really very long, but I was.

I was in North Philly, and uh, you do the same thing any other footbeat, whether you work at district or you know, you're just walking a foot beat, you're helping people.

If there's crime, you deal with it.

You know, I've had a couple of good arrests there.

You know what they had a lot in the subway when I was working, there was you know a lot of robberies.

Some maybe a woman might get her earring snatch or change snatched off her neck.

And you know, if you're close and so off to the racist, see if you can catch them.

Uh you mentioned North Philly did you ever.

I don't know if you remember.

Do you remember when there.

Was that Amtrak stop in North Philly.

Do you remember that there's one glen Wood?

Yeah, right at Glenwood, Yeah, that's right.

Joe Fraser, Jim Yeah.

I wanted to ask you about Joe.

So Joe is obviously a Philadelphia product.

Do you ever have any Did you ever meet Joe Fraser?

Yeah?

He was, well, he was the neighborhood hero.

I mean when you live, I was.

My address was thirty seventeen Person, which anyone over there, that's right off in Indiana and Germantown and Indiana.

As a kid, you could walk down the Glenwood Avenue.

And then the Broad which is only about three blocks away, and that's where mister Fraser's gym was, and that's where you would.

Go on Saturday mornings.

And on Saturday morning you can sit at a table doughnuts, juice, whatever you wanted and watch fights.

And he was always there.

But you know, in that error for us to see a man like that, you know that that's a legend, and you know you look up to guys like that.

I think one thing that's missing in the neighborhoods now is something like that.

They don't have that today, they don't have The people they're looking up to are the people driving the maseraties who are getting that from selling drugs.

Yeah, I think that's you know, I think you know, and you you've done a really great job in your you know, in your career trying to motivate young people right to stay away from that, and you hit the down the head.

The biggest issue in America's cities today is the lack of man leaders, right.

We don't really have.

Like like like a basketball coach used to be like an important part of a neighborhood, right, or or a boxing guy or like someone.

And it's because nowadays people just kind of move and you know that's that.

Yeah, it's I mean, I was a wrestling coach and my wrestling coach meant a lot to me.

And this is you right as a wrestling coach.

Yes, that's Joshua.

Joshua lived at k and A the kid with me right there.

He's a Joshua wound up getting an academic scholarship to Villanova.

How about that?

Yeah, and graduated.

He's down getting married in March.

Now.

The funny thing is when he got the academic scholarship to Villanova.

His mother she's Dominican.

He's Dominican, and he literally was a block away from K and A.

She said she didn't speak any English, but she asked you what did this mean?

I told her that he just hit.

The million dollar lot of Absolutely.

Wow.

You know, and think about that.

I mean, who knows?

I mean, who knows what happens if you don't come into or you put him into something, or you change you know, you never know what you could truly do for one person.

You know, you got to get a very intelligent kid.

And there's Bill, There's a lot of smart kids.

And absolutely, this is my point.

It didn't matter what he did in life, whatever he was going to do, he's going to rise to the top.

A lot of these like I Actually, I think I might talk about it in my book.

Any sixteen year old kid who's out there hustle and making two or three thousand dollars a day, you're not going to tell me they're stupid.

No, I'm smart for a sixteen year old kid.

They're just making bad choices because they're thinking like a sixteen year old kid.

That's that's the difference.

You know, now, Josh, There's been quite a few other ones.

I actually coached wrestling in this area for over thirty years, and there's just some great kids.

Of course, there's a couple who went to the wrong way on me.

But if I was to calculate when and losses, my wins are a lot higher than my losses.

You're you're, You're.

Eddie Alvarez is a product of yours.

UFC legend, Eddie Alvarez real proud.

Of Eddie, Eddie's Eddie's done such a great job, very humble.

I have you ever heard Eddie talk?

Very humble kid?

I mean, you know what of all the accolades, He's won three different world championships, three different divisions, UFC World Champion, has his own gym now and I and one thing I can't say enough about Eddie coming from an area like where that he's another one one block off k and A.

He is just a tremendous father and husband.

And what more can I say?

And when you look at Eddie Albarets as a career, he fought Dustin Ployer twice, Justin Gagee, Connor McGregor, Anthony Tedis, Michael Channing, I mean he fought everybody, I mean all the major guys.

That's a long and storied career.

And when when you see something and someone like that from the neighborhood, you knew him, you know, that's definitely very.

I was at a banquet recently where Eddie was one of the speakers that we hang out a lot together, and he brought something up that I forgot that I told him, so I had him wrestling on my Greade school program because I ran a great school program into the high school.

He's an athlete.

Eddie's just a great athlete.

Anything he'd done, he'd have been good at.

So he told me that he was thinking about playing basketball right around his freshman year from Real Calmly and I said, Eddie, how are you going to play basketball with two broken legs?

He said, okay, Coach, I think I'm going to wrestle.

So I forgot that moment.

I mean, it's a good point.

Actually, you know, that's a violent world that you know, wrestling UFC.

I mean I watched that.

I mean, you watch it Saturday, and it's like it's amazing that people like that.

I give you know, you give those guys all the credit in the world.

But you would give people like you a lot of credit too, So you eventually go to the twenty fifth dish.

I guess you're still pretty young, though.

Did you really like do I really want to be in one of the most violent districts on the East Coast?

I mean I did, wild I think I did.

I wanted to be there.

That is where I wanted to go, and I never regretted a minute there.

As I look back over my career, that is absolutely one of the best places I ever worked at.

It was in the twenty fifth district.

You know, I want the district cops in Philadelphia.

I'm in court every day, and when I see these district cops in court every single day, that tells me that not only are they answering radio calls, doing auto accidents, taking whatever the reports they got to take, they're out there locking up bad guys.

So that tells me that they're really active.

When you're in a special unit, you're assigned just to do that, well, you don't have to answer them radio calls, you don't have to take them auto accidents.

These district guys are out there.

I see them in court every day and I applaud but they're doing.

I think they're doing a great job.

How long were you responding like as like a like a like I guess you would just call it like a just an officer answering calls.

How long did you do that for?

I would guess probably about four or five years.

So we were in the late let's you started in like what mid nineties.

I got on in ninety one, okay, early nineties.

I was probably doing patrol to about ninety six, ninety seven, and then actually ninety six is when I got I got first detail out of the department.

I was detailed to the Georgia State Police and the Atlanta, Georgia for the Olympic Games.

I worked the Games in ninety six.

Now, what did you do?

What did you do in that?

Like you were just like crowd control that sort of thing.

Now we were with the athletes.

What it was was I had went to I took a class with the FBI, and it was to get my certification teaching certification and self defense.

And I met people when I was there, you know, And it was a physical thing.

Ran every day, worked out every day and did a lot of grappling, a lot of throwing around and the funny thing was the first day I was there, I was there, I guess almost a month.

The first day I was there, when.

You're putting your hands on somebody and you're grappling with people, they pulled me aside right away and said, what's your background?

And they realized I was, you know, a pretty successful wrestler and coach.

So when the Games came along ninety five, they contacted me and they said, listen, there's these openings for law enforcement and you would be assigned with the athletes.

And helping people down there.

But you know, they liked that you if you look like an athlete, speak more than one language.

So I applied and I got it.

I was down there for the whole summer.

The whole summer, I was down there.

When I came back, when I started doing I started doing what they call b D work with burglar and detail don't mean work in burglary.

Is what it basically meant was you're in playing clothes, work in the district, and you know you're out there responding to a high level crime and you don't have to answer the calls for auto accidents or domestic disturbances and stuff like that.

We're strictly focusing on Part one crimes.

From there is when I started working narcotics.

And I was working narcotics.

From East Division which is twenty four, twenty five, twenty six East Narcotic Taskforce with Joe Bolona, which was a great time in my career.

Then Joe got promoted, Keith Sadler got promoted and they disband the unit and then I got put in what's called a NETS team Narcotic Enforcement Team, that's what the NET stands for, work.

In the twenty fifth district.

Back where I am.

I'm back home again.

Loved it there.

So when I'm in the twenty fifth district, my sergeant then Mikey Bloom, he asked me.

He told me, he said, Bill, you know you'd be a great fit for SWAT And I said, I don't know, and he said, now, really you would.

So I practice up.

On my shooting.

You know.

I wound up getting my proficiency up the Park above Park properly and with the way it worked is that they take a group of guys, you take the shoot and you have to shoot a ninety five or better.

I was there like nine guys.

I was the only one to get a ninety five.

I got a ninety five right on the nose.

It wasn't above it ninety five.

The sergeants said, hey, good luck next time, guys.

You got a three month wait to try it again.

Says to me, all right, you got to do it again, not the mushit.

He goes, but no one's ever failed the second time.

And I went, oh, man, because I just got by with the second time.

I did in ninety six the second time.

But then that's all I got the swat what was fun?

So you quickly went to all these different units.

I heard a name you mentioned.

You mentioned Keith Sadler.

Keith Sadler was the police chief, and I live in Lancaster.

He I loved.

Yeah, he was the police here for a while.

So I want to talk about narcotics.

So we talk a lot about drug dealers in this channel and that sort of thing, and like conducting these operations.

How does that start?

Right?

So do you just how do you acquire a target?

You work your way up the ladder.

I mean, if you're just working from street level without any intelligence.

A lot of times they have things called proffers.

When you're in the higher up units.

Let's say when I'm with the DEA or something, or you know, some other unit, the intelligence units.

You find someone who got pulled over in a car and he got caught with all kinds of stuff.

You're just starting there.

Right and you know what then you contact is attorney.

You say, hey, do you want to profit, which means that you want to come and sit down with a couple of investigators.

You help yourself or you just take your head, you know, And that's how them guys get that going.

At the street level, you just kind of start at the street level.

It's not hard to find who's selling drugs.

You can sit just about anywhere and I can visually say that person's about to go by.

You can just see it.

You can tell what a street user looks like.

And at the street level, that's how we would do it.

At the higher up level we do it the other way, where you would get some one who got locked up with a lot of drugs and they want to work off.

They don't want to do the full time.

So.

You're what they call it from what I understand an expert on narcotics, is that is that correct?

Yeah?

I do right now, I do the uh, I do the expert for the Commonwealth and for the state.

I'm also certified to do it with the federal government, which I have testified for all three.

What I what I do is I go to the courts.

I read the arrest, and I view the evidence, and I piece it all together and uh, and I'll let them know.

I'll let the district attorney, the assistant district attorney who's there, say Okay, listen, we have enough evidence.

We can proceed with selling.

Sometimes I'll look at him and go, there's no doubt in my mind they're selling.

No doubt.

However, based on the evidence you have, there's not enough to proceed.

Well, people think.

Me to defend him, then prosecute him.

And as you know, people think like, oh, that's a slam dunk case.

Yeah, maybe to your eye, but in a wall it's a lot different as far as yeah, but.

I try to take the time.

I always do it.

If like today, I had some cases today, but he decent amount of drugs I mean, not not a ton, but a decent amount.

It was or a car stop maybe, uh, you know, twenty five bags of weed and twenty five crack.

You know, a little little doses, street level size but I said, we in a car stop.

Alls I have is that there's no interrupted sale, there's no scale, there's no packaging, there's no money.

Like I was like, good job, you did a good job.

And it's not personal.

But there's not enough for me to get up there and try to prosecute this because I want the evidence, right, you know, if it's if it's if he I say it this way, if he gets off and never does it again, this was his break, good for him, But odds are it's only going to.

Get caught again.

Right, And you've been out there long enough where you see the same people over and over and over again.

I see it in like with like the mob, even like even today, like you see the same guy.

It's been around eighty fifty sixty years.

They're not going to go get jobs at at you know, some restaurant or cane or something like.

This is what they know.

Okay.

So one thing I had a question.

On with like plain clothes and I've never understood this when you were playing clothes, isn't it quite quick that like the people in the neighborhood like just realize you're a cop, Like how.

Do you like, well, how do you blend in because like, I feel like.

I have a blend I had.

Let's say I still.

I have a gas company outfit, water company outfit, the UPS outfit, okay, and I utilized them.

I would wear a hard hat.

I would walk around with a clipboard and a tape measure on my ship.

I mean, I did some really crazy funny things, you know.

I'll tell you one of them.

I did, like you said, plain clothes.

So I was working with Ralph, one of my partners, and we were in intelligence, and we knew this guy was wonderful murder and we kept hearing he was in his mom's house, but we didn't have.

A warrant to go in the house.

So we're sitting on the house, sitting house so we don't see them, and our sources say, I'm telling you he's staying there.

So I come up with this idea.

I said, Oh, Ralph, I got my UPS outfit on, I got a box in my hand, I got people hiding behind bushes.

I knock on the door and mom answers the door.

So I look like an UPS guy, and I said, or I got a package for her, and I read the guy's name.

She says to me, oh, I'll take that.

I said, oh, wait a minute.

I go, oh, sorry, man, it says he has to sign for it.

She goes, well, he's not here.

I said, okay, no problem, I'll take it back, and she goes wait.

She goes wait.

So I'm standing the door holding his box in my hand, and she looks around and go, well, this way, that way.

She wokes in and now I see him coming.

He came down from the upstairs and I can see him.

Now.

Technically at this point I can go okay because I see him all right, but you know what I think up here, I'm not going to.

Go into that that that area.

I'm going to let him come to me at this point.

So I'm standing there.

He wanted for murder too, So I'm standing there and I'm holding this box.

As he comes to the door.

As he reaches out, I went like gat and dropped the box.

The box falls to the ground.

He bends down to pick it up.

So I grabbed him actually by the back of the neck and his pants and I drug him out the door.

So now I'm kind of struggling with him while other people are coming up.

But I remember Mom screaming.

Mom was screaming, why the hell was he fighting the ups guy?

Now, once you realized who I really was, Oh my god, Mom was so mad screaming at me.

You can't do that.

You can't do that, Well, yes I can.

But you know what that's now.

I utilized different outfits.

So you have to be you have to have some ingenuity.

You have to think of imagination.

Imagine the document documentary you talked about when I was with Lewis Threw.

If you notice them, I'm always wearing something.

It's like on a mechanic suit, right.

Yeah.

I noticed in there you had you had something that your name was Pedro.

I think, oh, Stanley.

I would shop.

I would shop at the used clothing store.

I would go to this place on Armeno Avenue, used clothing and I would just look for cool names.

Whatever cool name I said, Oh, let me get that one.

I would wear them out there.

And it's funny where people don't don't really recognize you.

I mean, there comes a point where they realized about I guess it was about ten years ago.

One of our officers, Eddie Davies, got shot.

And when Eddie Davies got shot and I realized who it was, I was the one that locked him up.

Before he went to jail.

He had just gotten out for my arrest, and he wound up shooting Eddie up at like fifth in Annsburger.

Eddie chased him down and he shot Eddie the stomach and he.

Really never recovered from that.

He just actually he was teaching academy for the past ten years and it just need just never recovered.

He just recently retired.

But I remember he was selling drugs in the railroad tracks and I walked down the railroad tracks and I had my little padro On had one, and I remember Wolford right up to him and he asked me how many, And I looked at him, and he goes He said to me again, how many.

At this point, I can't believe me.

I recognized me.

Other people came in and when we did lock them up, he said to me, I thought that was you Hunter.

I just didn't understand why you're wearing that shirt.

I guess you don't really think about it, You just, you know, you just just do it with people.

Yeah, I can think of is that does an NFL running back worry about getting hurt every time he runs the ball?

No ball, No that's a good point.

Actually, yeah, that guy ups.

Guy, What did he say when you finally got him?

No, he was pissed off.

He was pretty pissed off.

Yeah, what do you say to you?

Like was even mad?

Do you ever do they ever say like?

It is what it is?

Like?

Like these people know the.

Game, you know there there's been a few people I locked up, Like we hit locked someone up.

We did a clever I'd write about it in a book.

The way we out smart at the sky.

He just sell behind a fence and we out smart him totally because you if we couldn't get over the fence and he would just walk away waving to us.

The fence was eight foot high and it was encompassed that we got over that fence and take us ten minutes to get over it.

But then I don't know where he's at.

He disappears into the woodwork.

Well we let him disappear one day and me and guy named Tommy Clark, we actually got ball cutters and cut the whole side of the fence and pulled.

It back over and put a stream there.

We went up.

Okay, he's looking at us, and I'm like, guess thinking, I went like this and ripped back the gate like the like the shower curtain, you know what I mean, rip the back and he stood there and we'd.

Rather we're taking him, and he goes, man, that was clever.

You guys got me on that one.

They're clever.

Oh yeah, they're right.

You gotta out, you gotta think them out.

Sometimes there's just that way you just got to think and say.

Yeah, you got to look outside of the box.

Right.

Sure.

I want to talk about the throw stuff and kind of that experience because that has millions of views.

That is.

I mean, I noticed, like anytime I talk about like reds or something like a lot of people have seen those clips.

I want to ask you about it.

But you know, obviously we talked about the bad Lands, which this is an article years ago where they kind of highlighted it.

Philadelphia actually complained recently to Google due to the fact that on the map it said Philadelphia bad Lands and they said that that looked bad.

It's a bad place.

It's a place of crime and all sorts of things.

You knew it well.

People always ask like when I do these like Philadelphia Kenston, like.

What are the most.

Profitable, what are the worst drug corners in Philadelphia, at least in that particular vicinity.

Can tell back when I first went to the twenty fifth district, that was the bad right there, Miael Block, Percy Street, Hutchinson Street, and Lawrence Street, all three thousand blocks.

To be right off Indiana.

They were the busiest box probably on the East coast.

And we used to call it the Sam's Club.

You didn't go there to buy a little bit.

You went there to buy a lot, because you just didn't buy one or two packets.

Now things have shifted over the years.

I guess it was around ninety eight ninety nine they did a thing called safe Streets here in Philadelphia in which they shut blocks down, and you know, it wasn't as accessible for buyers.

So that's what changed the game a little bit.

And what changed the game was the l people if they drove into the area and they got they lose their cars.

People would drive the park somewhere along the market Frankfurt Line, get on the Elt and get off at Somerset or get off at Alleghany and right there.

As soon as they start doing that, that whole area became the busiest because now they don't have to walk all the way down the Ninth Street.

I mean, if they got off at Alleghany, they're walking a mile down to Ninth Street.

Maybe.

But if they get off at Kensington Alley, game them first little streets, Potter Street, Weymouth Street, car Custer Street, they're right there, lipping coot.

They are so busy, so busy.

I mean, the market there is unbelievable.

If I was to say the busiest block, okay, it's probably a little bit of a toss up between like thirty one hand at Weymouth, Fifth in Westmoreland.

Fifth in Westmoreland's a little further down.

They may be the most organized drug block I've seen.

I mean they're really good.

When do you say organized, like, what do you mean?

It's a business.

It's a straight up business where they work shifts like we work shifts.

You got your day work, you got your mid tour, and you got your night shift.

And it's not like the guys out there selling.

They're out there.

There's a whole chain that happens.

There's someone who's going to buy bulk.

Let's say I buy two kilobs, Okay, I have what's called a safe house.

Safe house is where I'm going to package.

Right now, there's an area in the city and I'll say it's Mayfair.

Most of them were in Mayfair.

Where in Mayfair you got a lot of Section eight housing.

So they'll rent, they'll they'll rent this house out in Mayfair.

And from the outside it looks like a normal house.

You don't have people banging on your door, you don't have people coming up in all the hours of the night.

It's not what that house is used for.

It.

If we hit that house, we go in that house, what we're going to find is a table, bags, scales, and a chair.

That's all that's in the house.

There's nothing else in there because all day long someone's in there packaging up drugs.

That's called a safe house.

And the persons sitting at that table, their job is called a table job.

Then you have somebody who's going to come when it's all ready and take it to the block.

Now, the guy that takes it to a block, that's all his job is.

He'll take the drugs to the block, he'll collect the money shift and they'll bring it back to whoever he's working for.

Now, the guy's out there on the corner.

They're the ones to do the handy hand.

Now straight up business.

Let me ask you, from the time the individual purchases the two kilos to its back on the street, how quick is that happening.

Within a couple of days?

Okay?

Easily?

Easily, Okay, Now you mentioned Weymouth, Custer, some of these little streets.

When it comes to like money, how much how much a week we were talking here.

After everybody's paid.

Okay, you're talking.

Everybody's got to get paid, all right.

A good drug block's going to get you like twenty five thirty thousand.

Dollars a week after all the expenses.

That's or the guy who runs it now profit These little things coming what they call bundles.

I guess the best way to explain it would be thinking of a case of beer.

The normal case of beer has twenty four to a case.

Let's say I have a case of beer and I'm selling each can for a dollar, and I'm selling them for this guy over here.

So when I get done selling them twenty four kens, I'm going to have twenty four dollars, but also got to give him his twenty four go here, now, I'll go back to the bundles.

Depends on how much it costs.

Like let's say a pack of heroins ten dollars or fentanyl.

There's no more heroin, it's all fentanyl.

Now let's say a pocket fentinel is ten dollars, there's probably going to be fourteen in a bundle.

Okay, now I'm selling them fourteen.

I got one hundred and forty from selling them.

The guy I'm working for, I got to give him either one hundred or one hundred and ten.

The other one goes to me.

That's my pay for selling him.

So if I sell what's on the street guy, and I sell fifteen bundles fifteen times thirty, that's the mat.

That's what I'm making.

That's what I'm making during that shift.

But the guy the packaging that the guy who's making all the money is the guy way up here.

The other one's making the money.

Yeah.

I actually testified last week, and I'm looking at the guy.

He's five 't eight, he's one hundred and five pounds.

They caught him with drugs.

They have him in a sale, and they I had explained why he's selling, and I did.

I know, I did a pretty good job explained he's a seller, I said, But let me tell you this, I said, this guy, he's not out there selling for money.

He's a he's a user and he can't afford his habit.

And the analogy I said that would be like a mother who can't afford Similac steel and Similac for her baby.

Is she really a thief?

Is this guy as culpable as the guy up here?

He's not.

But you know what you'll get charge of.

Same you mentioned in the Throw documentary.

You've you've talked about this even like in some things you even kind of mentioned to me.

The people that are making the money are you know, you don't see them, they're not around.

Some of them will get prosecuted, you know, people like this will eventually get caught.

He was right out there, and we'll talk about reds in the second.

But most of these people will.

Never hear of.

It's not like it's not.

Like, you know, we see people like Jary Malino, who at one point was in the streets.

You know, of these people, people that are running these blocks, we'll never see them.

Now you are, who are they get them?

A longer investigation will get them.

I mean, there's some very good investigative units.

They're the guys that field unit does a great job.

I guess the question is there are guys that will never be caught.

That's a good question.

Are there I elusive and have.

Not been caught yet?

I'll put it that way.

Never's a long time, I would say, those guys who haven't been caught yet.

So you're telling me there are people that have that are out there that have that have been elusive for decades.

Yes, no doubt, no doubt.

When we did the railroad job, our investigation led us to the person who ran the block these murders were going on, and when we realized too it was we pulled his arrest record up and he was running that block for fifteen years now.

One arrest.

Wow, I mean even one like you mentioned one block and make twenty thirty thousand a week, you know, one block that that's good money.

That's a lot of money.

That's a toop guy making that.

That's not what the street guys are making.

But but let's just talk about money, not that much, right, But let's just say you are running a block and you're you're making like, let's just even say fifteen to twenty grand a week.

That's a lot of money.

Money, Some of.

These guys have four six blocks like that's yeah.

I mean where are they living?

Are they living in the city, are they like I've.

Done a lot of I've done a lot of wire taps, both state and federal.

And when you do a wire tap, you you get to know everything about somebody.

You really get inside their mind.

Yeah, you're in all their conversations.

You know who their wife is, who their girlfriend is, their second girlfriend is, you know their motives.

Even though there's a guy we investigated once he would get up every day and take his kids to private school.

That's what he would do, take his kids to private school.

I mean, you know everything about them, and it's that that burns me out.

I actually got burned out from doing wire taps.

We only had two Spanish speakers.

I was one of them and I was in that room every day.

But uh, that you you get to know everything everything I was the most important.

Now there are the investigations where you get to that guy at the time, you're not going to get to when you're at their like visual in one street.

You're out there, but you're never going to see his.

Hand or anything.

Yeah, he's too smart, right, I want to ask you about like kind of on on screen we see this, Have you ever seen the Wire or how I happened?

You know, people have asked me that.

Yeah, I heard you.

I think you know, maybe when you.

Retire, you know, take two weeks sit down, because you you starkly remind me of and I'm sure people that have seen The Wire like you kind of have that feel of like the mayor knows who you are, like you're you're a top level cop.

You kind of have a feel there's a character Jimmy McNulty and you're not.

You don't remind me of him per se personally, but like just the way he is as a cop.

You seem like very with it, You get it, you understand things.

I think you really need to watch it as a cop in a big city because it really I think you realize how starkly similar it really is which they portray on screen.

So you mentioned to me you actually had a hit put out on you at one point.

Yes, yes, it's actually twice my career twice.

The one was what I said, the railroad investigation we did.

What happened was when you look at like I said, the health, the shift changed where people were coming in on the l.

So what they would do is they would get off at Somerset and there's a little railroad.

There's a railroad track.

In fact, the bridge is in the movie Rocky.

In the movie Rocky the First Rocky.

You got Rocky running across this little bridge in Kensington.

What about kids running behind?

I'm crossing a railroad track.

To your left is the Frankfort Market Frankfort Line, and to your right the other way.

To your right and your left, this is where all the drugs are being sold.

So what people started to do, because they would.

Just get followed out, get stop and get locked up, they would go right down on the railroad track, walk down and they will come up with a block twenty nine hundred motor stream, maybe a two block walk and it was a very profitable block.

The drug sold there where was heroin and their stamp was bart Simpson stamps or stamps.

That's how you like.

Someone try to ask me to explain stamps on drugs, and this is the best way I can explain it.

Okay, let's think of chicken soup.

You got progresso almost chunky, same soup, but different varieties, different textures.

Okay, Well, let's say I like it real thick.

Okay, I'm gonna buy the chunky soup.

This guy likes it ordered down, he's going to buy the campbells okay.

Well, the drug users, they all talk okay.

And this stamp on this block was Bart Simpson, very very profitable.

People liked it.

They were always there.

And the powder cocaine was called black tape.

So if you walked onto the block, I would say, who's got the Bart Simpson, Who's got the black tape.

So they used to walk down this railroad track and right up on the mother Street, get their drugs, walk back, get right back.

To the yel, easy pasy, and they were killing it, was killing it.

So during the summer the fall of two thousand and eight, what happened was the guy who ran the block noticed that the clientele was kind of withering.

Couldn't understand why.

So he goes down on the railroad track and he's watching the people come up, and about a half block before they got to them, there was another block which was.

A Hope Street.

They were come on up here, up here, So now he was stealing their customers.

So that's that's a no note.

One like these drug dealers.

They'll wave to each other, Hey, how you doing.

They'll hang out with each other afterwards.

But I don't sell on my block.

You don't sell on his block.

It's just the unwritten law.

And if you violate that, street justice wall occur.

So he yells down to them, Yo, you got to stop that, you know.

They kind of gave him the finger.

So his name was Most.

His real name was le Orties, but everyone knew him as most, which is a Spanish word for monster, big guy.

So what he does is one day he goes out, he gets his gun out, and as the guys are trying to weigh people down, he lets off about five.

Or six shots.

Okay, just kind of a warning, like, yo, guys, he ain't supposed to do that.

This is the unwritten law.

So later on what happens is one of most of those workers was found beating.

To death behind a garage right there off of Mother Street.

Nobody thought nothing about that because that's kind of common back there.

I mean, there's dead bodies back there.

People get killed, no big deal.

We didn't know it at the time that it was one of most of those workers, and it was the guy on the other side who did it.

So now most of us pretty pissed off.

He's like, okay, these guys killed one of my guys.

So the next time they're out there, he actually shoots at them, but missus.

So now they go back to their boss and say, hey, listen.

Most of elter Pttota he's got the gun and he shot at us.

So sometimes it comes out in Spanish.

So and he shot at us, so he orders them go up to that corner and kill him.

Now I found all what I'm going to tell you, I found out later.

I didn't know why it was going on.

So these two guys come up.

Let's say uh.

One was named.

Anah and the other was maynota Mainota.

That was their street names.

So they came walking up and as they walk up, they're standing next to most of one's got an ar fifteen, the other has a nine, and Mostla looks at him and says, yo, guys, you better put that away because they'll lock you up for that.

And they looked at him and said, no, this is for you, and he pulled out the ar shot him in the head.

They won up finding parts of his hat and they were still filled with stuff on top of a roof.

That's how I already hit him.

And then there was a guy standing with him named Kadanio Katanyo just was collateral damage.

They had to kill him too, So now they got two dead bodies on Motor Street.

These guys take off running, okay, but they dropped They dropped their guns right there.

We didn't know at the time they dropped it because they didn't want to forward with them.

So we respond and there's Mostro and Katano.

They're dead, I mean most of his edge going it's actually off.

So we're trying to figure out and that's when we realized, okay, something's going on.

There's some kind of drug war going out of there.

That's three now we have right here at twenty on the mutter.

So they specifically assigned me and my partner to this homicide investigation.

We were street guys, we both speak Spanish, we both grew up out there.

We know the area, so I know people.

I'm asking questions.

So now we're really actively out there.

About two or three days later, we're fronting Indiana, which is around the corner, and we hear like seven or eight shots, so we come on running down to the shots.

We jumped out of our carpent down the shots, and these three guys are running out of the railroad tracks.

The shots are this way, but they're over here in the railroad tracks.

So I know all three of them.

What's going on?

I don't know.

We heard shots were running.

We go, okay, no problem.

I talked to the one.

I slipped them my card.

Yo, you hear anything, give me a call.

I never thought that that was that big a deal that wound up getting him shot.

But anyway down.

The street there's another guy Deadna Hanna was laying on the ground, stabbed like ten fifteen times, shot in.

The back of the head, like wow, Like okay, Now we're up to four bodies, like, oh shit, so we know something's going on.

Well, what we didn't know was the three that ran out of the railroad track, there was a fourth one in the railroad track.

What they did was they ran down there and hit the gun that they just killed this guy with.

I didn't know that when we were talking to these three, the guy who did the shooting was five feet behind us to the bush and sitting there with the witness nine.

So okay, So what.

Happened was the guy gave the card to They were out drinking a couple of days later, a partying, smoking whatever he want to do, and one of the guys with him picks his jacket up, puts it on and.

Goes like this.

I pulls out my car and they look at it.

And the boss's name.

Was Miguel, and they're like, yo, Miguel, look what's in Fernando's pocket.

And it was my car.

So he knew that he was in trouble.

Then he doesn't know how much.

Well, about ten minutes later he was found on Front Street, shot four times in the chest.

So they take him the temple and we go there right away because we find out who it is.

I'm like, oh my god, I know him.

There he's in a coma.

He comes out of the coma like three or four days later, maybe a little longer.

I forget, but he tells us what happened.

He said, let me tell you.

He goes, I'm want to talk now.

He said, when you stopped us, he was in the bushes with the gun.

You guys really were surprised you didn't see him down there.

He goes, they shot me because I had your card.

He goes, Then he had certain words for them.

I almost came out right now, but he has certain words for them, and he's like, okay.

So they knew that he was.

He was cooperating with me.

He was giving me information.

So okay, so we knew who We knew who the guy was.

We wanted it was Miguel.

He goes, the boss ordering these murders.

So a few days go by and uh, his name, Francisco was in the hospital.

Next thing you know, there's another guy from that crowd.

One of the guys who ran out with him was now shot in the hospital, but he's conscious.

He's asking for me.

So we go to the hospital, like what's going on.

He goes, all, listen, you gotta be careful.

He goes, he knows that he was talking to you.

He knows you know it's him.

He goes, he just gave the two shooters that did the other job, he gave them a ball herrow and to shoot you a ball heroin.

At that time, you're talking ten fifteen thousand if you break it down.

So he goes, he's coming after you.

He's going to shoot you.

So we go, okay, so now we have to call our supervisors.

We get Carlos Vega, the attorney, Abov district attorney.

All right, they're typing up warrants for this guy and Meg Okay, we know we want him now.

Plus we have the warrants for the two shooters.

We know who they are now we identify them.

So they say to me, they go, listen, we want to put a guard on your house.

We don't want to come into work like whoa, whoa, whoa.

No way, listen, I'm not going to live like that.

I said, you're not going to get me sitting at home and not doing anything.

I said, they win if you do that.

You give me twenty four hours, and I guarantee you I'll have him.

See what we found out other than the block he was selling and he owned another block and they got to survive.

So they need money.

So we go first with me and me and Ralph went to the block.

As we turn a corner, there's the two shooters.

They're standing right there on the corner.

So we pull up, we jump out, and we cuff them.

We take them straight to homicide.

They're getting charged for killing Mostro and Catano and Kana, so they got three bodies on them right there.

We can't prove that they're the ones that beat the other one to death, but we do have witness statements saying that they're the.

Ones that shot.

Then, so we take them down there and we get down there.

So now they're talking.

These guys look cold as ice, but we got them a homicide.

They were like babies.

They were crying like babies.

They said, listen, when you grabbed us, we each had a gun.

We threw it under the car.

We seen you first, That's what he tells me.

We seen you first, and we threw our guns on the cars.

So we drove right back out there.

The guns weren't there.

Someone already picked them up.

So now we got the warrant for the boss of the block.

Weguel.

So we go out there the next day and I'm out there with my lieutenant, few other guys, and I'm going, you know, he's going to come for his money.

We're out there for over ten hours and my lieutenant's going, let's call it Bill, we've been out here a long time.

Let's call it.

I'm going, Lieutenant, he's going to come for his money.

This is how he survives.

He comes for his money.

So eventually, here it comes he drove an escalator, white escalator.

I remember him driving down the block and I said, that's him in the car.

So when he got to a certain point, the guy who I was handing over his money handed over the money, and then we kind of boxed them in.

I remember walking right up to the side of the car.

I opened up the door and looked at him and said, Miguel, you're looking for me.

You see A look on his face was like, ah, fuck, sorry, I'm sorry.

You're good.

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what he said.

We pulled him out.

Now, the two that did the murderers, they actually did the shootings.

Okay, they pled, they both got life, Okay, the three bodies on them premeditated.

They gave us the whole story, and they actually they confessed to everything.

You know, they didn't they didn't fight it.

You know, when I realized what they were really just bad drug users.

They were doing it because they were bad drug users.

Right now, this guy fed their habit.

Where Miguel was a little different.

He wasn't on drugs.

He wasn't on drugs at all.

And he just knew that was a good way for them to entice them.

Exactly exactly now.

He the trial with him.

He was charged with the solicitation to kill a police officer, and our evidence was really strong.

We had putting put two people in witness protection and they were witness protection.

And we hit them away and hit them away.

And that trial drug won for a long time, and it got to the point where it had to go on.

And he really had one of the best attorneys in Philadelphia.

You know.

It's you know, and even the attorney came up and he said, you know, I have a lot of respect for you, but he's paying me to represent him.

I'm going to do it.

I said, Look, I don't take it personal.

I understand it.

It's okay.

By the time it went to trial, he just pled out.

He didn't even even fighting.

He pled out.

I can't remember how many years he got and that was in two thousand and eight, I know, and locked up a long time.

You know.

The funny, the irony is that he went to Greatersburg and he's been nothing but problems to Greatersburg.

And my cousin, George was the warrant the warrant warden at Gratersford and when I mentioned his name there, he goes, oh yeah, he's suing me.

You don't make his conditions here, he's been nothing but Juno.

I'm like, god, well it's an I'm the one that locked them up.

Job that really went well.

A little bit of lady luck on our side, you know.

And thank god Fernando didn't die.

We would have never known, you know, him coming out of that coma and open it up.

And then uh, Monito was the other guy, means ponytail.

Monito was the one who got shot in the stomach, who called for me right away.

He's like, you got to watch out.

You know, he's coming after you next.

So it was well, it went well.

I mean, I remember we got a uh for that job.

We got we got a free meal, a plaque and a day off.

Kind of here he yess right, this is what we do.

This is I got too personal ques like, not necessarily personal, but like that job, how do you just, like when your shift ends, how do you just go home?

I don't know, how do you how do you lay down and go to sleep?

I guess it takes a certain mindset, you know what.

Just this job never bothered me.

I always joke around.

I said, dealing with criminals is easy because they're criminals, and you know what to expect from criminals.

That's what they do.

Police officers, and we deal with criminals.

We do what we do, they do what they do.

I find it harder dealing with officers sometimes.

I mean sometimes the ego is getting away, you know, and you know it's some you know, it's like saying this sometimes what they complain about something like, you know what it's like to work in the steelyard for eight or nine years, you.

Know, with a hard hat on and ten degree weather and you're climbing girders and you know, you're hanging onto something and you're carrying this steel around.

That's a work.

I mean, I always looked upon it as fun.

I think the best preparation I had wasn't I mean, it kind ofmy taught me stuff, no doubt about that.

The best preparation is just being from that area.

I kind of stood things, and I still to this day.

I don't take it personal.

I just don't take it personal.

You know, they can make crime, we lock them up.

You mentioned during the story about the hit put out in you You mentioned there were two pretty cold killers, like they took out people pretty simply.

It wasn't real difficult.

I guess the question is we hear a lot about We've heard it for decades.

This stop snitching, it's bad to be a rat, all this stuff.

It's probably the biggest subject I deal with in like the mob genre, Just that rat word.

It's always there.

What percentage of people when you get him in the box, what percentage flip?

That is a great question.

I probably spent about two years specifically assigned to homicide, where we were like a street team.

Promise.

They would call me they needed someone in this division.

They called me because I'm going to find him.

Someone's going to tell me where they're at.

So in that two year window, I probably was face to face with probably two dozen murderers.

And of the two dozen, maybe one or two had that cold look in their eye even after they were cuffs.

The other ones would say the other twenty two they were just kids.

They were absolutely just kids.

I remember once it was a fourteen year old kid.

He had a three fifty seven.

It was on video.

We go out to his house and I see mom.

I said, look, we got to warrant for him.

I know he's only it's only fourteen or fifteen years old.

I said, you know, listen, there's two ways you're going to visit him right now.

You're either going to visit him in jail.

You're going to visit him in the cemetery because the guy that he killed, I said them people are coming after him next.

So Mom was like, I don't know where he's at.

I said, well, here's my number, an how we're laid on my phone?

Rung it was mom.

Mom said, I asked the people in the neighborhood about you, and they said that I can trust you.

Meet me here.

I'm going to give them to you.

And I drove there and here this little kid fifteen years old, maybe one hundred and ten pounds five 't two.

I'm thinking to myself, this is the one that shot that three point fifty seven?

Are you kidding me?

You know?

But you know that's what's out there.

You know, he wasn't he was a kid.

I talked to mom still today, to this day.

I still talk there.

And that was probably that was in the late nineties.

That was in the late nineties.

I did that.

Whatever became of him, he still jail.

Mom's trying to get him out because he was a juvie.

I think probably he did twenty some years.

He was a kid.

And you know what's growing up in that culture is so different people.

If you're never in that culture, you might not understand it.

You know, it's they're no snitches, absolutely that exists out there.

When I how many of them?

But how many of them are actually when the rubber meets the road, how many of them are actually standing on business?

A small percentage once they know that they're caught a small percentage, but some of them are, some of them are.

I had one where we had we had done the profit.

Okay, guy got caught with a lot of drugs and he's on board.

He wants to do this, he wants to work with us, he wants to work off his sentence because he's going to do about ten years.

And he's telling me, okay, yeah, I want to do it.

Then we told him what we wanted them to do.

And the person we wanted to get to is a very hard person to get to.

And once I mentioned that person's name, which I won't say now because that person's still under investigation, Okay, he looked at me and said, nope, I'll do my ten years.

I ain't gonna do it.

That's how that that's how that interview ended.

And he went and did his time.

So there are some hardened Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not doing nothing.

He was one hund percent on board, knowing that instead of doing ten years, he might do three or four.

You know, as soon as I told him what we needed him to do, climbed right up his lawyer.

I went, I'll do I'm not doing that.

Wow.

Do you think do you think in a way, that's probably how the streets ended up kind of crumbling?

You know, those types of people don't really exist anymore.

Yeah, they do.

Eventually everybody goes down.

There's a few people I can name, which I won't that I know that they've just never been caught.

You know, they're they're very good at what they do.

You know, they're they're very good at what they do.

Fascinating.

So obviously, you know you've had this story career.

I mean, you've you've been in playing close, You've been in SWAT, You've been in you know, major narcotics operations, you've you've you've been at the Olympics.

You've done all these things.

One of the things you've also done, and people are fascinated by crime, True crime.

We see a lot of these, you know, cop specials or or or or like the BBC Forensis they come into Philadelphia.

How did that all happen?

You?

You were on a show it's called Law and Dishorder in Philadelphia.

It was essentially this guy, Louis Threaux.

He's kind of a documentary filmmaker.

He goes to very interesting ways of life, walks life and kind of just shadows people.

You've been on other things too, How did that?

All?

Kind of stuff?

Was fun when he came, he was supposed to come for like maybe two episodes.

He went up stayingful like six or seven.

He stayed longer than he wanted to because he was having a great time.

I think one of the reasons they focused on this area at Kensington because.

That's where the biggest crime was going on.

And I guess they have two assets using me because one I grew up out there.

I know everybody out there.

I knew everybody, and two I'm fluent Spanish, so I can speak Spanish out there with them, and that's always been an asset for me, even when I did the I did the show called Risk Takers when I was in Swat That was I was in uniform, MO we went to certain what would slot would go to?

That was around two thousand and three, two thousand and four.

Lewis was around two thousand and eight, maybe right around when the railroad.

Lewis just missed when he because when all on railroad murders took place.

Wow, Yeah, he would have loved being around for thatting.

Yeah, what kind of guy was he was?

He kind of a jovial guy or he was a nice guy like I actually tried to email him when I wrote my book because I do talk about some of the things in my book with Lewis.

And at first it was kind of funny where Louis, uh, he was kind of like condescending with people, and I was taking him into places where he was talk and I basically said, wait a minute.

I had to take him aside.

I said, Louis, listen, you know, and all due respect, I said, these people are talking to you because they respect me.

If you want to talk to them like that, I'll wait around the corner for you.

And I guess he.

Kind of read what I meant by that, because it kind of turned it down a little bit, because you know, He would ask him questions I thought were inappropriate, you know, like like why why.

Do you do drugs every day?

What makes you do that?

Like?

And I was like okay, like and he would get in their face, like don't be a tough guy, you know, like you know, you want to ask him a question, to ask a man the man or ask him in the woman.

Was it was it him that chose to wear the bulletproof hast Uh?

Yeah, it was.

That's like a level four one.

That's like wearing slat, you know.

I was.

I liked him, though I did.

I like Lewis.

He was fun.

Well.

I think he had that kind of journalistic sense where he thinks he could just ask anyone anything and these aren't real people, and it's like, well, yeah, they actually are, and like this is real ship.

This isn't like a film.

I'm actually gonna play a quick clip from it.

This is where you kind of introduce him to some interesting figure.

Just uh, stay tuned.

The big fat guy.

Yeah, what's his story?

He's the drug bloord out here, is he?

Yes?

He is.

He's the boss of how many blocks?

Maybe six?

Really?

So what you were doing is you were you were telling Louis and you could tell Lewis gets very excited when you say he's the drug lord out here.

You were talking about this guy Reds.

And what I'll do, guys, not only what will we talk about Bill's book, but I want to I'm gonna put the link to that original episode.

It's actually one of very interesting It's about an hour long, very fascinating look into Philadelphia really sadly still kind of what it looks like today.

But you were talking about a guy, Alexander Rivera aka Reds.

Reds is a you know bad Lands guy, you know Lawrence in Indiana fifth and Indie that area was a drug lord, as you said, he ran multiple blocks.

You mentioned you had known him since he was like younger, like a kid about a little bit.

Well, you know what, he's smart.

He's not a dummy.

He's no dummy.

He's a great example of that.

If he grew up in a different environment where he's smart, he could have done anything.

You know.

But this is the culture that the funnel is.

That's a better word for it.

It's a funnel where if you want to get ahead and you want to make more, opportunities are limited.

And that was the opportunity to choose now, like I'm fortunate, Like I met all these kids through coaching wrestling, you know, and I.

Could go on and on.

You know, you mentioned Joshua and Eddie.

There's probably fifty more I could talk about who grew up out here.

I think I always talk about Timmy Murphy.

Timmy Murphy is a financial advisor from Morgan Stanley.

Bobby Dempsey.

Bobby is like some kind of marketing executive when the Dukene University lived in San Diego for ten years.

I mean, he's doing great, and.

He's again he was actually Bobby was actually a juvenile delink when we first met him, and here he once goes on to graduate Dukinge.

You know, he's a marketing executive right now.

So I mean, these it was a really just mindset.

Like some people like you talk about those guys that had success.

What do you think what do you think it truly is?

Is it just willpower?

I don't want to be that, Like why does this person from this and why does this person become that.

They're both the same, they're both Spanish, they're both from the same area, they both grew up with the same you know, non opportunity.

I think that's one thing about this whole world.

Like one of the reasons I started this show is why do people go Why did I go my way?

Why did my father go his way?

Why do you go your way?

And why did they go their way?

Why?

Why is it the thing?

What is it that reds?

Is it just money?

Is that really what it is?

I think with Eddie was was more guidance, not just me.

There are other coaches, you know, really we really took him under our wing.

And even with Joshua guidance, with with Alex who reads, maybe he didn't have guidance.

And sometimes I'll describe them.

That area like this.

If I was to get a litter of six puppies, and I get three puppies and I actually train them, right, you know, I walk them, I coddled them with love and I do.

Things with them, and I get the other three and just let them go, and that's deal with out there.

That's a great kind of way to look at it.

That's exactly the way I tell people.

I mean, I mean to so mean, and I don't mean it insult nobody, But if I was to describe it, that's that's exactly the best analogy I can come up with.

That's really well thought out.

So one of the things about that documentary that there was really kind of groundbreaking and fascinating is throw And I'm guessing it wasn't just him that made this happen, but he was told, according to what he said, Reds would never speak to him on camera, and then.

He does.

Now, before I get into that, what was he the kind of jovial guy that he presents, because he kind of seems like a likable guy, like you know, he's this drug dealer, but you know, he just kind of jokes around, has fun.

What kind of guy was he?

Like the guy you knew he was.

Exactly the way he was on camera, Like you said, this jovial guy.

I'll tell you what, though, there's there's a level of respect out there, Okay, Like if I was to if someone ran on me, they would get mad at them for running on me.

If I drove down the street and if I was on Reds's corner and someone threw something at me, Reds would deal with it.

Like he didn't want the he didn't want me there, he didn't want the attention.

Who would make sure he says, hi to me.

But he also knew if I recaught him dirty, I'd lock him up.

But he treated me with respect, and I kind of respected that.

But that's a lot of the corners out there.

There's a lot of corners like that out there where I could walk right up and they're not going to give me a problem.

They're not going to kick me, and they're not going to spit at me.

They treat me a little bit differently.

I mean, I was fair my entire career, and here I am thirty plus years later, and I look back and I treated people right, even when they were criminals.

You know, once they're locked up, okay, I'm going to treat them fair.

I've had people where they're going to jail for a long time and they would ask me a simple question like can I go?

Can I kiss my mom goodbye?

Sure?

Where she yet?

Before I take him the station?

Where's your mom at?

Get mom at?

He give mom?

Give me a kissing.

Once you give a kiss, there's no reason.

I wouldn't do that.

Why wouldn't I It doesn't hurt to do that.

But you know what, that's how people can respect for you out there.

You know, It's like it's not personal.

I keep I think I said it about ten times.

It's not.

No, it's not.

I got to tell you my attitude is a little different, and I never took a personal.

I'm begging you.

You've got to watch The wire Man.

Everything you say, it's amazing, how like that Magnalty Care he would do the same thing.

It's pretty amazing, how like similar you are.

So with Red's, how did that interview happen?

Did he really just kind of walk up and say, hey.

Yeah, I told him.

I told him, I said, look it.

Anything you say this has nothing to do with with getting arrest.

You know what Lewis made people do is before he spoke to him, he would let them sign a piece of paper.

And Lewis is telling them, listen, this is not going to be used against you.

Okay, this is just me doing a documentary and this has given me the permission to do it.

And you know, I think that in their mind, like, okay, this is legit because everybody he interviews in that documentary signed a piece of paper.

Everybody.

Okay.

So with Reds, it was really just he it was kind of just about his life.

He wasn't going to stay incriminating anything like that.

Yeah, the horses running around, Yes, he had animals.

Yeah, but you you would you agree though, that wasn't the reason he was ultimately arrested.

And oh no, no, he was under investigation at that time.

I knew he was on the investigation, Like you know, he just kind of he just kind of knew he was going to have a couple of years in the sun where he was going to make money.

He kind of had to know that, like driving around and Escalade with a twenty five thousand dollars chain on, like eventually it was going to end.

But most guys aren't like that.

You don't look upon long term.

They don't.

I've actually talked to kids already out there who were young and sadly to say, I've heard some the young kids say to me, I don't intend to live in that long anyway, So I'm.

Living it up now, right sadly, But that's what they're saying.

They don't think they're going to make twenty twenty five.

They don't feel want to make it, so they're living it up now.

I want to talk about your book, but I want to kind of put a bow on your career and kind of even your time in those days.

Reds is still around.

He's still in prison.

He was recently given a commutation in the Joe Biden administration.

He is going to get out at some point.

He was given life originally for drug crimes in federal prison.

It's it's been, what I mean, over probably fifteen years since he's been in prison.

You know, you you said he's a smart guy, and he's obviously much older than he was you know when you knew him.

An interview with you two would be very interesting.

I wouldn't mind talking to Alex if we could set.

That up, Jet, I would love to.

I mean, if whatever he gets out, I will say I will pay you both.

I can't pay crazy amounts, but I would love to see that happen.

That I get so many I've gotten so many views of like.

People find him very interesting.

So obviously, you know, we're in twenty twenty five, you know when you started this career.

You know even you know, back when you were dealing with some of like Reds.

The city's changed a lot.

I lived in the city.

I remember kind of how it was around like twenty ten.

It was still a place where you could go to West Philly, not have a problem, you go to the north and not have a problem.

Now it's a lot different.

These kids today are a significantly different breed.

The the ethical way of like you mentioned, you know, if if something were to happen, they would deal with you like they were going to give you respect.

Nowadays, it's a lot different, is it?

How much different is it out there?

Truly?

In the streets.

Well, there's still great places in Philadelphia.

I love Philadelphia.

I'm Philadelphia born raised, third generation.

There's still great places in Philadelphia.

But a lot of places, like you know, when I when I went from ninth in Indiana to Junior Junior.

Add is not much different than Indiana now, it's just the city's changing.

I don't know, if I were to say what's the biggest problem in these areas, it's simply the word parenting.

People bring children into this world and literally do nothing with them.

That's why I use the analogy of the six puppies.

They literally do nothing with them, and what winds up happening.

Is the streets raise them.

And the streets can be a mean place.

You know, it's you're making your own decisions from ten years old on, you know, I mean.

I go, I just did that this.

I go speak at grade school sometimes and they're so innocent and nice at that age, so innocent and nice.

Now I'm still involved with high school wrestling, and I go to both Catholic and public schools, and some of the schools I.

Go to, I'm like, oh my god, these kids are so bad.

I'm like, what I said that the one I went to school once, I said, when did you lose control?

You know?

I said that a guy in the hallway like, Wow, they can't believe what's going on here, you know.

And I wasn't there as an officer.

I was there as either a wrestling coach or a wrestling official.

Officiate high school wrestling too.

I'm a busy guy.

I keep busy.

You're doing a lot.

You also do real quick you do like Eagles games things like that.

Yeah.

Well, when I'm.

Still part of what's called the SWAT Reserve team.

When I went to SWAT, and if I started a roll call with SWAT, we probably had twelve guys at roll call.

I know they don't have that, not not even half that.

Right now, everybody's shorthanded.

So what we started, I guess about ten twelve years ago was they called the SWAT Reserve Team, So it's guys who were still on the job who weren't SWAT already SWAT trained.

We go back twice a year.

We qualified with all the weapons.

So when things happen and they're shorthanded, thinking hey, let's give him a call.

Let's that's why I've seen you at the game one time.

A contract with the NFL where they're going to have two long guns at each entrance.

Catwalk's going to be monitored and they might not have enough people on a Sunday afternoon.

Is that strictly so?

Is that strictly for in the case of a major event or yes.

Okay, yes, well I'm not Let's say they're doing a warrant tomorrow morning and it's a homicide warrant.

There's you need funk containment, you need rear containment, first floor entry team, second floor entry team.

If it's a third story, you need a third floor entry team.

You also need one one hospital car.

There's always going to be a car when of the cars up front left running with somebody in it, so something happens, boom, He's going to the hospital.

He's already got the hospital.

Rooms like in terms of Eagles games though, is like if there's like a simple like fight or something like, you're not gonna deal with that.

You're dealing Yeah, you're dealing with like if there were to be a major event at a game, like Okay.

That's exactly why I'm there, and we don't have to We don't deal with the crowds.

If there's a major event that goes on the game, we're going to handle it.

Any kind of like fights, the blue uniforms will handle I call them the uniforms.

Yeah, they're just like the people there.

Yeah, gotcha.

Yes, you're a busy guy.

You got a lot going on.

I actually, like I told you, I ran into you.

You you it was it was a I think it was a Monday night game.

I just happened to see you, and you're a pretty familiar faith So yeah, what a wild what a wildly interesting career.

You wrote a book which which it kind of goes in a little bit to the media things that you've been doing.

I have it.

I recently got it.

It's called Surviving the bad Lands, yourself published.

It was something that you kind of told me you would always wanted to do, and I guess I kind of couple this with my final question.

You know, you wrote a book, you you've done all this stuff.

You're still fairly young, right, how old are you?

Believe it or no?

I train every day.

I'm goofy.

I train.

You're still pretty young now, yeah, I'm sixty three.

Okay, you have a lot of time left.

You're eying down your career, but you've already done so much.

I eat, right, I train, I don't abuse myself.

I joke with people, I said, there's only three liquids I consume.

I consume water, coffee, and light beer.

There's nothing else I'm going to drink.

No, listen, but I lost one hundred and fifty pounds a couple of years ago, and someone said to me, like, how do you how do you do it?

And one of the big things was I stop drinking certain things.

Okay, these juices and sodas and all that stuff.

It's such a bad They're so bad feeing there.

They're just empty calories.

I mean, and you're adding that on to what you're already eating, which is bad.

It's like people wonder how.

Do they eat?

Yeah, right, right right?

So I guess the question is like what's next.

I got, I got a couple of things lined up.

I'll tell you now, I really enjoy what I'm doing for the Quartz, the narcotics expert.

I wouldn't mind can doing that, whether it be on this side or that side, whatever one I think is right.

If I think that the defense is right, I'll help the defense.

If I think the common I'll help.

That doesn't matter.

I can look into a case and I honestly can tell you whether it's strong enough to go forward.

And I had one of the young dasa to me.

Did I explain to him, this guy's selling, but you don't have enough, and I think you should go ahead with just possession.

And he said to me, bill your word as gospel.

If that's what you say, that's what we're going to go with.

Now that's one avenue which I'm thinking about.

The other one is I've been working with the schools here in Philadelphia and Catholic and public schools, and both of them are going to be implementing classes for seniors people who want to go into the law enforcement field.

And what the curriculum will be it will mirror the police academy.

So they're going to have the same classes that are toward the police academy, the diversity classes, the law classes.

I'll expl units, and I'm kind of going to get involved in that.

I'm excited about that.

Both I want to help both the Catholic and public schools.

I think it was one bridge gap between teams and law enforcement, and two, I think we're going to get more people wanting to beak officers.

I think so too.

You know, the stigmas and all that kind of stuff.

It's a hard job, right, but it's rewarding job.

I give you a lot of credit for being really a gleaming light.

It's a hard job.

It's very much in the news today, but you've done so many different things.

You've helped young people, and I think you're not gonna have any shortage.

Of problems finding whatever you want to do after this.

You knowing the fact that, like what you talked about, like you have so much knowledge and intelligence in like crime and drugs and that sort of thing.

I want to call on our people that watch and listen to the show.

Build does a really good job in this book of like describing as childhood the places.

That's exactly right, you know, it's I wasn't an angel.

I wasn't an angel.

I was your normal team.

We did things, you know, I talked about one of the things I did in this book as a teenager.

And you do you golf?

Okay, do you goff?

You ever per se?

But I know a good amount about it.

So when I was living in Juniata, one of my friends lived on top of a bar restaurant.

And they shared the basement with the bar restaurant.

Next to the walking box was his washer and dryer, so they were always down there.

So at Junior had a golf course the seventeenth hole.

Your tee off here and the green's up here.

So when I hit that ball, if it goes on the green, I just know when on the green.

So what we used to do is we used to go to the basement of the bar restaurant.

This is a teenager, and we used to get cases of beer and we go sit at the top of the hill where the green was, and one of us would lay down on the green and win.

And if they hit the ball onto the green, we would crawl across get the ball and put it in the hole, and the other guys would sitting up there clapping so the guy's looking down the hill and they see these young guys clapping.

Right when he got to the top of the hill, the ball he thinks he got a whole of lunch and we sell them here.

I mean, we really did okay with that.

That.

I mean, that's a pretty good idea.

Uh, full of ingenuity.

Bill, I got to give you a lot of credit for that.

I want all of our people, you know, whether you're Philly guy, New York guy, I think Bill will really kind of resonate with you.

This is a really good self published book.

And Bill's had quite the career.

He didn't really even talk about some of the you know, didn't go that you know, totally deep in some of the wire taps and all the different stories, the time he had with Louis.

Thureau, the risk Takers, all the stuff he's done.

I'm gonna include the link to the book Amazon, wherever get the book, show some love to our friend Bill Hunter.

You know, Bill, you actually made a comment to me that one of the subjects that I covered on this channel, you've you arrested one Ronald Hurd, Yeah, who he was a part of that that dirty block and talking.

About the thirty Block.

I still laugh for Williams.

You knew Dirty Block?

Huh?

All right, yeah, that's where I was born.

Yeah, it's not far, it's it's what thirteenth Cambria, twelve Cambria.

Thirteenth in Indiana, thirteenth Cambrian.

Yeah, I got, there's a there's actually a map.

Now.

There are so many different sets and groups and different people to health.

It's it's fascinating.

But yeah, Dirty Block, they were part of that dim thing they stole, like allegedly all those dimes about that.

In different parts of the city are sold differently.

Yeah.

Where where let's say Northwest is a different than the way it's in South Philly.

South Philly is mostly delivery.

You call, tell them what you want and they bring it to you.

Okay, they catch the guy selling.

He usually only has what he has on.

So I stopped you.

You got three bags of powder on you?

Do I look like a drug dealer?

No, you know, I'm on my way to deliver them three bags somewhere.

But where I'm talking Kensington is well organized.

It's it's like going to a store.

Exactly what it's like going to a store.

Well, I will say this bill and I'll talk to you about this off the air.

I have something that I think you you may be able to get involved.

And I have a guy I think he would love to speak to you, maybe take you.

You could take him around, show him.

Do you ever do that?

Do you ever do would you do something like that again?

Yeah, that's what i've double Lewis.

I took Lewis.

That's what I did the Lewis, I took him around.

Yeah, I would love to.

I would love to see something like that in present day.

I think that one new.

Ads, the assistant district attorneys that aren't from Philadelphia, They'll say to me, I.

Want to see what these places look like.

I'm like, come on, I'll take.

You, and I have.

Well, I think if there's ever going to be any change, I think that's kind of where it starts.

You know, just if these politicians just for one second would understand what it's like in these places and going there and just seeing it is a nice start.

So, Bill Hunter, a storied career, you don't got much left.

What do you ever think though?

Do you do you think you'd be able to get through life without this?

This is a big part of your life, I guess that's kind of the Finally.

It became a big part of my life.

I didn't expect it to be like this, to be real honest with you, when I got on, I thought i'd be leaving in four years.

When I finished Temple, I figured, okay, me, I'm going to be gym teachers.

Last wrestling coach.

You know, well, why the wrestling coach thing came true?

Just wasn't.

The gym teacher didn't come through.

She kind of did it all.

I guess, Okay, this is truly the final question you have.

You have kids, But take me back.

You know you're a little older, they're a little older.

But take me back to let's say your kid nowadays fifteen sixties says, hey dad, you had a son, Hey, I want to be I want to be a cop.

What would what would you tell him today?

I support him?

You would, yep, I would.

Did your parents first got a job?

When I first got the job, all the old timers were looking at me, going, kid, this job ain't what it used to be.

And I thought to myself, oh my god, I'm having so much fun.

I look at these young guys now and they're being told the same thing, and I get to talk to them because I'm in court with them and you're telling me I'm having fun.

So I'm thinking to myself, you know what, that hasn't changed.

What's funny?

I looked it up when you joined the department in ninety ninety one.

Ish, do you know what I Meny murders there were in nineteen ninety in Philadelphia.

Yeah, five, one of the only five hundred years.

We've had a couple recently.

But it was a dangerous time, you know, Bill, I know you may not believe this, and our listeners will laugh on this.

If I could do it over, I'm thirty six now, if I could do it over my early twenties, I would have joined the police department, probably.

My same career.

Yeah.

My only regrets not getting on sooner.

I fit so well, it fits me.

Well.

Well, the department will miss you, I'm sure, but luckily there's I'm sure a lot of good offs just coming up behind you.

Bill, was really fascinating to have you on.

I've been really wanting to speak to you for a while.

I'm gonna see what I can't do.

Maybe I'll be the one to put that together.

I'll get my people behind it.

And see if we can.

I would definitely do it, but I would I would want to meet with him.

Oh, absolutely.

Him.

I got I got a guy that I know.

He's big YouTube guy.

I think he would be perfect for this.

Maybe we'll see if we can't figure that out, Bill Hunter, Everybody go grab the book.

Surviving the bad.

Lands really a look into one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the city of Philadelphia, both then and now.

And you know, I'm sure we'll see you again.

Thank you for coming on.

I really really appreciate you pleasure, and we'll talk to you all again soon.

Bill hang on, I'll me hang up here.

Everybody, have a great day.

Thank you for listening.

We'll see you next week here on the sit Down, SA