You are listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts.

Folks, it's a hug.

No one I have seen.

Let us have a watch to see you this.

Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were.

True and truths that sound like lies.

I'm the ghost of Danish Wartz.

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.

Welcome to the show.

Before we begin, do we have any hoaxkeeping?

Hoaxkeeping?

Just to give everyone a sense of the distance between when podcast episodes are recorded and when they are released, this is one of the first episodes that we are recording after the release of the show.

And oh my goodness.

Thanks everyone for checking out the show.

Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you to everyone who messages us on Instagram and emails us at hoax the pod Cast at gmail dot com.

I do check the emails.

That is me, yes, and I'm the one checking the Instagram.

And it's been really fun to hear from everybody.

The reviews have been so nice.

It's just it's really been lovely seeing all the support and all of the excitement.

People have been commenting with little fun facts that they know about some of the hoaxes things that we didn't know and it's been really cool building the little hoax community online.

So keep it up and thanks for checking out the pod.

Keep sharing, keep writing, reviewing, subscribing, because we love making the show and want to keep doing it.

So thank you very much.

Well, let's dive into this hoax, which I'm very excited about.

Lizzie.

I'm just going to ask you, what do you know about spirit photography.

Spirit photography, I think came up in our first episode, Yeah, when we were talking about the Coddingly fairies, and I mentioned it as something that I found more convincing than the fairy pictures.

Yeah, and it takes a little bit more technical, know how, which we'll get into.

I think of spirit photography as like you take a picture and there's blurs in the background of the picture, and someone's like, that blur is a ghost, and like, who am I to say that that blur isn't a ghost?

Or maybe the blur is like a little bit more defined and it looks like a skeleton or something.

Well, I'm going to show you an image of a famous spiritualist named Fanny Knnent with the ghost allegedly of her brother William.

Okay, so that's what this photo is.

Okay, great, So this picture, like all the pictures, will be available on the Instagram when this episode goes up.

This is a woman in old times clothes and she's seated and behind.

Her is Yeah.

I mean it sort of looks like the outline of a man, the imprint of a man, the very fuzzy, faint image of a man.

Yeah.

This episode, it's kind of like not to not to do the I feel like this is like now a cliche thing, like this episode has everything, but this episode really is going to be sort of a greatest Hits of hoaks.

We're going to get spiritualists, We're gonna get P.

T.

Barnow, and we're gonna get We're getting a pet Barnum camp.

And I've learned more about wet plate photography than I than I ever thought I would in my entire life.

I didn't had not heard the phrase of what plate photography before today.

I want to preemptively say there are gonna be people listening to this podcast who know more about what plate photography than I do.

And if I get anything wrong, I am genuinely sorry.

I tried my best.

I also want to give a shout out to the writer Peter Manso, who's an author.

He wrote a book called The Apparitionists, which was very helpful in this book, and he's also just written about spirit photography like all over the internet.

So shout out Peter, thank you for your help.

And also shout out to the Haunted Mansion Ride at Disneyland.

Oh, because the fan of the Haunted Mansion Ride, that's.

What I think of with spirit photography.

You get the hitchhiking ghosts.

I will say, I don't know jack nothing about no wet plate photography, but I love me the Haunted Mansion Ride before they changed it.

I hear now it's like, you know, lots of three D animations and sort of movie tie ins and like whatever.

I liked the old school where it was literally just a doom buggy that went around and you looked at projections and then you came out the other side and it was like a nothing, and I loved it.

I love the lo fi ghost Pepper's ghost effect shout out.

We'll talk about that's not really relevant.

We might talk about that later, but I want to talk about spirit photography.

And a man named William Mummler.

He's he's going to be the main character of Tell Me About It.

He was born in eighteen thirty two, started working in Boston as a jewelry engraver, which was a real job back then, like you want like a fancy probably still a job.

Yeah, that's true.

He could get your like rings engraved with a little message.

But it felt like at this time there would be like a straight with multiple engravers.

And then he'll work for an engraver.

Later he'll open his own little engraving company and it's like watches and jewelry and silver filigree.

Okay, but what's happening is he's working as an engraver.

He's inhaling you know, probably like silver filaments and chemicals, like polishing chemicals, and he gets tummy aches.

Yeah.

And so he is also a like amateur chemist, and he is going to invent a medicine which he'll call the German Remedy, and he'll advertise it with a fake backstory.

I'm going to quote from his advertisement, which is quote I tried various doctors and advertised nostrums to no avail.

They only seem to aggravate the disease.

I began to despair of finding relief.

When I came into possession of an old German receipts from an eminent German physician.

I made the medicine and found instant relief.

So he sells this.

There was no German receipt or old German country.

But what is in the thing that he's selling, I don't know.

Just like fizzy water, Yeah, I mean I think it works to some degree.

Maybe it's like amateur thumbs, okay, But he makes enough money from it that then he's able to open his own engraving studio.

Okay.

And his engraving studio is on Washington Street in Boston, and it happens to be a few doors down from the photography studio of a woman named Hannah Green Stewart.

And this lady is very pretty.

She also works as a spiritualist medium.

Before she got into photography, she had a business braiding hair for like Victorian memorials, for dead people, like someone passes away.

She'll braid the hair into like a ring or a locket.

Like hair.

Jewelry was like a specific thing that's sweet, which when you think about it, like this is that this is a remnant of time before photography was widely available.

And so if someone you love passes away and you have no photos of them, maybe you know you want a piece of them that you can keep with you.

So hair jewelry was a real mainstay of Victorian culture.

I will say I've given locks of my hair to boys I was dating.

They never think it's cute.

I think that's kind of romantic.

I know it's the type of thing girls think is romantic and boys are like, why did you do that?

Okay, well right, and if you think it's romantic or weird, but this is what Hannah Green Stewart was doing.

She now has a photography studio, which kind of is it's not the same as braiding hair for memorial jewelry, but also it's not that different.

You're sort of preserving something for immortality in a way.

Yeah, it's like a keepsake.

It's a keepsake.

And she also is a medium, and what she'll be is a healing medium, which means that she'll sort of channel a famous old doctor and like give medical advice to you via this doctor.

That is so many layers to this con.

And it's like is it a con or she just giving medical advice and pretending that it's from someone else, which kind of is what Mummler was also doing with his old German cure.

Both a little bit of both.

Yeah, but anyway, the two of them have a lot in common.

He thinks she's really pretty.

She's a widow.

What year are we in at this time.

We're probably in like eighteen sixties.

We actually, I know we're in the eighteen sixties because Hannah's so like Civil war exactly civil war, because Hannah has a husband who is presumed dead, like we just don't have him in the historical record.

We know he was to the Civil War and he never came back.

Yes, we think he died.

We know he died.

We don't know how he died, Okay, probably.

And we're in the North, so these people don't own slaves.

These people do not own slaves.

We're in Boston, Uny.

Problematic in that way.

Yeah, if they're fighting in the Civil War, they're fighting on the North.

Great and also spiritualists, like we can get into the word actually very very much in the North.

And at a certain point this isn't a side, but there was spiritualists who believed that the Confederacy was going to be using spiritualists and get an advantage from talking to ghosts, and so they wanted to help the North by being like, we'll be that the spiritualists on the North and we'll give you ghost advice.

And that didn't really materialize.

So for context about the time period, I just now want to give a little more context, Like in the history, what's in the ether, what's so the Civil War is happening, but electricity is still relatively novel.

So the idea that there are forces that exist in the world that you can't see with the naked eye is not like a crazy thing that exist.

Oh sure, I mean I guess if like you, like if you were born at a time when it was like gas lamps are the only type of lamp, and then you now live in a time when it's like electricity exists, I guess you're like, I guess there's a bunch of things that exist that we just I didn't know existed when I was growing up.

Well, a point that Mumbler will make later is that electricity is something that you can't necessarily see with the naked eye, but with a long enough exposure time you can photograph.

Very true so there are things that you can't see that in theory you can photograph.

That's an idea question.

Yes, when is Frankenstein.

Written eighteen oh eight?

Okay, because doesn't he try to do that with electricity?

Yeah?

Okay, when do they do the first X ray?

I don't know.

Okay, isn't no more about Frankenstein than X rays.

Because it's not electricity with X rays.

But isn't like taking a picture of someone's insides without cutting them open.

That to me is like crazy new technology.

Okay, the first X ray is not going to be until eighteen ninety five.

Okay, I'm not super relevant to this, but you know, what does happen around this time.

I'm just saying like, these are things that if I were in that time, I would be like, I guess anything's possible.

The first telegraph is going to be sent the you know Morse and his telegraph is being sent in eighteen forty four, and so, okay, he's gonna be able to send it, the first to ever telegraph that more sends from Washington, d C.

To Baltimore.

The message is what hath God wrought?

Which feels so negative and ominous, and I think they meant it positively, like what hath God wrought new technology?

But doesn't it sound so ominous?

Yeah, wasn't the first phone call like get in here or something.

I think the first phone call was like, oh my God, come here, like I really think it was.

But also this idea with the telegraph is communication is going to be happening faster and in a way that seemingly was impossible, and so it doesn't really feel like a big leap where if you can communicate between two places almost instantaneously, why couldn't you communicate between realms.

And things you can't see?

And the idea of the telegraph is also what's going to lead to the beginning of spiritualism in eighteen forty eight, and the kind of real kickoff of spiritualism happens when these sisters in Hydesville, New York, like upstate New York, the Fox Sisters do what they call it rapping, like they hear like a like bang bang bang, like a crack in their house and they're like it's ghosts, And it became a whole thing.

Really they were just cracking their knuckles.

I mean, I could we might do another hoax about this.

Obviously it wasn't really, but they in their minds they'll later say, well, it's like Morse is communicating you know, telegraph with the beeps beeeps and yay.

Yeah, and so it's like ghosts could also communicate with with bang bang bangs.

It starts the spiritualism movement.

Another thing that's a factor to the spiritualism movement is post industrial Revolution.

More people can read and they have the leisure time to do it, and so there's a lot of new ideas spreading really fast.

There are multiple spiritualist specific newspapers that are going to spread news and ideas and that's going to be an important part of this story later.

So all for context, Spiritualism.

Is good context come into this.

Yeah, spiritualism is sort of capturing the country.

New ideas are proliferating.

People think it's possible because like we don't know, technology is interesting and that.

Yeah, absolutely.

And also the Civil War is happening eighteen sixty one to eighteen sixty five, like around seven hundred thousand people die.

Like there is enormous grief happening in the country right now.

And like what if you could talk to them?

Yeah, yeah, So Mummler, this engraver starts hanging around Hannah single you know missus, but she is single, and he kind of threw osmosis and hanging out with this hot lady learns the basics of wet plate photography, which is the sort of newer iteration of the dagera type that allows you to do it faster, so people don't have to sit still for half an hour.

Now you can sit still for like a minute and take a photo.

And what you do just this is the most basic cursory overview of wet plate photography is you take a glass, you coat it with kelodeon, which is like a gooy chemical mixture of ether and other chemicals, and then you bathe it in a silver iodine mixture which will make it light sensitive.

Then you put it in a container that blocks all the light, and then you put it in a camera.

And then when you remove the thing in front of the lens, the light of whatever is in front of the camera will imprint now on this glass that's been made light sensitive, Sit for a full minute, close the lens, bring it back to a dark room, cover it and developing solution.

Rinse the plate with water to stop the development, and then you can e or fix it on the glass or print it onto paper.

Very basic.

That's sort of the process.

Last sensities it to light, expose it to an image, develop it.

This to me is exactly in romy and Michelle's high school reunion when she explains how post its are made.

I invented wet plate photography.

So Mumler apparently is.

I want to be clear, a lot of this is from his account, sure, and he's someone who's going to say spirit photography is real, so he's spoilers.

She's a liar.

I liked the book The Apparitionists a lot.

I think one place that the book was sort of lacking a bit for me is interrogating Mumler's own accounts because he is a known liar.

He's like a demonstrable liar.

So just keep in mind that a lot of this is coming from his account of how this happened.

He says he was just messing around in Hannah's studio, decided to take a picture of himself self portrait, just felthy selfie, And when he developed the glass and saw on the negative, oh my god, a girl appeared beside me.

And I'm gonna show you this photograph that he took in eighteen sixty two.

This is the he claims, the first photograph he ever took.

You want to describe it, Okay, I have so many questions.

Yeah, so he is standing next to a chair, and sitting in the chair is a fuzzy, bleached out girl of maybe ten.

Yeah.

And I mean, first of all, if he was like if he took the photograph, like like who was taking the well he did he just you can just you can just lift the thing and then go pose and then go put the thing back.

It takes long enough.

Like you know, he stands it.

I don't believe that he didn't think anybody else was there because he's posing next to what he thought was an empty chair, which clearly he left enough exactly enough room for someone to sit in it.

Like it is really frame exactly enough room for the for someone to be sitting between the chair and the table.

The thing is framed such that it would look like such a weird photo if nobody else was there.

Well, like he clearly thinks there's gonna be somebody else in the photo.

Well that's what he says.

He says he was just messing around and isn't it weird someone else was in this photo?

He assumes, again his account, it makes no sense that he improperly cleaned the glass, which is a thing that happened, because I remember we went through this process.

If you hadn't cleaned the glass, well, the imprint of a former photograph might still be on the glass.

So he's like, oh, maybe again, he says, maybe I just didn't clean the glass.

Well enough, isn't this silly?

What a what a silly photo I took?

But he shows it to Hannah the spiritualist, and she goes, Okay, that's a ghost.

He is not entirely convinced by his own account, but still thinks it's interesting and transfers it to a paper to show friends who might stop by.

And one of those people who stops by just happens to be this noted spiritualist named doctor Gardner, and he just happens to stop by a few days later, Mumler shows him the photo, and he claimed Mumler claims that he was only showing Gardner the photo to like have a little fun at his expense, because at this point Mumler is not a spiritualist.

Okay, Gardner takes this photo and is like, oh my god, this is amazing.

Tell me how you did this?

Leaves And then next thing, Mumler knows there's something written about this photograph in the Herald of Progress, which is a spiritualist newspaper in New York.

And Mumler claims that he was mortified seeing this because he's you know, He's like, well, I don't know anything about spiritualism.

I don't know that this is a ghost.

He felt misrepresented.

I'm just a rational man dating a hot spiritualist messing around with her spirit photography tools in her spirit lab, showing her showing my results to her noted spiritualist friends.

Exactly how could that possibly have ended up with me in the newspaper?

But then lo and behold the Banner of Light, which is a Boston spiritualist newspaper, publishes the account with more detail, including where at Hanna of Light.

Is like still a name that people would give to like a QAnon.

Yeah, Like Banner of Light is like what a scientology newspaper would be called.

Yeah, Banner of Light.

Lo and behold, spiritualists now flocked to the studio.

So he just shows back up and is like oh no, look at this.

All these spiritualists are coming to mine and Hannah's studio and also we're getting married.

Oh cool, so she's the uh missus missus mumbler.

Now.

But gard remember when I told you about those Fox girls who were doing the wrapping.

Gardner had also sort of advocated them, and then there was a committee of professors, including Harvard professors, who investigated them and disproved that they were ghosts wrapping and figured out that it was just the girls cracking their knuckles underneath their dresses.

So I think Gardner might have been a little like, you know, once bitten twice shy and wants to make sure that these spirit photos that he's championing are quote unquote real.

Is Gardner sort of like the opera of his day, where he's like, I found some interesting people and then he's like, hmm, interesting person, you lied like sit on my couch and cry about it.

Yeah, except I think he would be more upset when it's not real.

I don't know.

I thought Oprah got pretty mad at that.

James Try.

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

He probably felt very betrayed at these teen girls who pulled a prank on him.

It's good, Frank.

Yeah.

Well, he decides that he wants to get his photo taken.

He sure gets his spirit photo taken with a deceased son who had died years before, and so he's like, wow, this is convincing.

But he wants to make double shore.

So he brings another photograph of him with some ghosts behind him to a photography expert in Boston, J.

W.

Blair.

Oh, so, what do you mean, like with a deceased son, like a spirit photo.

He gets a spirit photo.

Mumler takes his photo, so.

You can ask for a specific ghost to be in your photo.

Well, that's this is the key, now, Okay.

I didn't mention by the time that that Gardner takes the Mumbler's photo and is showing it to all the other spiritualists.

Mumler goes, Oh my god, that's not just anyone.

That's my cousin who died.

I recognize her.

Now, okay, so you're getting a photo not just with a random hitch.

Like your love family member.

Who is coming to be with you.

Great.

So Gardner gets his photo taken and oh my god, it's my dead son.

And it looks just like him.

It looks just like his dead son.

See that is like hard to fake, yeah, because you know what that person looks like.

You know what that person looks like.

We're gonna get to that a little bit, okay, but he's convinced this is my dead son.

Amazing.

He brings one of his photos that Mumler took to this photography expert JW.

Black and asks him would you be able to make a similar one?

And Black is like, no, I would know how.

And this is like an experienced photographer.

He was the first guy to take a picture in a hot air balloon in eighteen sixty.

Cool.

So he's doing a lot of stuff.

He's been taking photos for twenty years.

And Black sends his assistant, a man named Horace Weston, to go to Mumler's studio conveniently just a few blocks away, and Weston gets a spirit photograph taken and he's like, that's my dad who died.

Convincing yeah, And he comes back to Black in the studio and is like, I don't know how he did it, and everyone at this photography studio kind of laughs at him because he's like, obviously it's not a ghost.

But he's like, I'm convinced.

So this assistant goes back to Mumler's studio with word from Black and says, if you let him watch every step in your process and you get a spirit in the photo, he'll give you fifty dollars, which is like two thousand dollars today.

Nice.

And Mumbler's like, bring him over.

And Black goes over watches Mumbler and he says, take apart my camera if you want, and Black is like, nope, that's okay, and he's like, but I no photography, so i'll see if you do any funny business.

Anyway, he takes the photo and a spirit shows up, and to be fair, you know, he gets the photograph, he offers Mumbler the money.

Mumbler says, no, no, thank you.

I don't need it.

I'm just doing my humble duty as a as a spiritualist, and I just wanted like Black didn't really inspect the equipment.

He was kind of cocky because he's like, I'm an experienced photographer and this guy's an amateur.

Mumler had, you know, prepped all of his equipment in advance.

He's using his own camera and tools and chemicals, and Black thought that Mumler was kind of too dumb to tinker with it in a meaningful way.

But we also know that Mummler like is this amateur chemist and like you know, it's a technology guy.

So it's not really like a scientific test.

No, but but he did check it out.

But he checked it out.

And it's interesting that a photographer shows up sees this process and is there are no red flags going off?

I mean, to me, the more impressive thing is that, like you can get an image of a dead person that is convincing to someone who remembers what that person looked like.

Yeah, obviously, thanks to spiritualist papers word of mouth, Mumbler becomes incredibly indemanded popular.

He claims again that he's like, I was only going to do these spirit photographs two hours a day because the spirits get tired.

Is good to die.

The demand means I have to do more.

So he starts charging ten dollars, which is like three hundred dollars today, So he becomes really successful.

He marries Hannah Green Stewart.

Now she's missus Mumler, and now they're a pair, and she as a medium will describe the spirit who's hanging around before the photo comes, she'll be like, oh, I see like a young woman hanging around you.

And he doesn't always produce a spirit photo, which makes people think he's for real, right.

Because the spirits are are difficult.

Yeah.

An abolitionist newspaper called The Liberator will investigate him and say the medium's air and manner, his non success, his disappointment all indicate reality.

And Mumbler's big defense is that, look, people can photograph things that you can't see, like electricity, and also people are really happy and satisfied.

I'm providing this service where people are losing loved ones, loved ones that maybe they never got a photo of or with, and they find they get one photo with them for once in their life.

And it is like he's making money, but like sort of on a scale of like hugster to creep, Like it's a little less harmful than being like, I have a message from your loved one, you know what I mean.

He's not convincing them that they can talk to the dead.

He's just like giving them a piece of paper with a nice picture on it.

Although Hannah Mummler will sometimes be like, can they say this see?

I think that's kind of crossing a line.

But it becomes successful enough that he closes his engraver shop and the Mumblers are doing this full time.

This is a political cartoon from Harper's Weekly that I think is very funny.

It is a put cartoon in two panels.

The first one is like a dapper man getting his photo taken at Mumler's, and the caption is mister Dobbs, at the request of his affianced sits for his photograph unconsciously happens in at Mumbo.

And then the second panel is result portrait of Dobbs with his five deceased wives in spiritu oh no, oh horror, and that he accidentally got a portrait taking a Mumbler's with his with five dead wives and horrifying his affianced.

That'd be like a good sketch.

Yeah, it's silly, Yep, funny, all political cartoon.

So Momliir is in the ether.

Yep, he's in the in the space.

So it's like it's like a he's like the guy from Catfish.

Yeah, yeah, he's the guy.

Yeah.

Some spiritualists are skeptical, so Fanny Connant, who is a which you think that spiritualist would be fully on his side.

I love the idea of other freaking like liars being like, no, you're trigging people.

I'm really talking to ghosts.

But truly, I think they think that spiritualism is something to take like very seriously, and they don't want something that can be disproven muddying the waters.

Yeah.

So Fanny Konnent, who's a big medium writing for Banner of Light, speaking through a medium, So this isn't her saying this.

She says there is much that is genuine, true beyond the possibility of doubt surrounding this recent unfoldment of spirit power.

There is also much that is untrue and which has its origin not in the world spiritual, but in the world material.

Inasmuch as you have the faculty to divide the right from the wrong, the false from the genuine, it is your duty to exercise it and to weigh the balances of your own judgment all that is presented to you from the spirit world or from the world in which you now live.

So she's just basically being like, some things are true, some things are false.

Figure it out.

Uh.

Yeah, that is generally a good perspective to have.

She could not be covering her bases more.

That is such a statement.

It's almost like she didn't say anything.

Well, she didn't.

The ghost that she was speaking through said it.

Why would you travel all the way from the nether world to say that?

Uh well, just to make that important point so true, The editor of the Herald of Progress, Andrew Jackson Davis, decides that he wants to send someone to investigate, and so he sends this photographer from New Orleans named William.

I think the name is pronounced guy, But how would you pronounce that name?

G u a y?

Yeah?

Gay gay?

Why why I think it's guy.

I'm gonna say guy.

If it's gay, I apologize, but gay guy gey guy.

Guy writes back to the Herald of Progress and says he investigated every step of the process very thoroughly and tells Davis in a letter that he fully endorses its legitimacy.

All right, people are trying.

People are trying.

And Mombler also from this point on will say Black investigated me, JW.

Black, and this guy investigated me.

So he doesn't let anyone else investigate him.

He says that the spirits would become quote disgusted by the mortal need for proof that they'll stop showing up.

So he's like, these two people investigated me.

They're you know, well known and of experts, so no more.

I mean a little bit.

I get that.

It's like at some point, like trying to prove ghosts is sort of a fool's errand and like it's your ten bucks.

If you want ten bucks for a ghost photo, you have to sort of take an internal investigation and not like you can't go find proof of an afterlife in like a guy's camera shop.

That's true, this guy guy is also kind of a shady character because for an unbiased, you know, impartial investigator, he's gonna come work for Mumbler right now.

So he teams up with Mumler, and with working together, they expand the business and they also make it like more theatrical.

They also start a male order business, so you send a description of your loved one and seven dollars and fifty cents and they'll mail you the picture back.

Dumb p.

T.

Barnum actually requests one and has some Mumbler spirit photographs in his museum in New York, the American Museum.

But Barnum's attitude is very like, I don't know it's interesting.

It's a very like Ripley's believe it or not attitude in his museum, where he's like, I'm not saying it's true or falls.

I'm just saying it's interest thing.

Yeah, yeah, and I guess it is.

Yeah.

Sure.

So the most notable thing about Mumbler, and the thing that convinces people that it might be real, is the fact that it's like you're getting a photo with a loved one that there might not have even been any photos taken of period.

So how do they do that?

Yeah, that's what I want to know.

Well, I'm gonna say, if it's someone that there have been no photos of period and you haven't seen them in years.

Okay, you might, you might not remember what they look like.

I think we're really used to seeing lots of photos of people we know in love.

Yeah, And if it's been years since your lovedn was gone and you do not have a picture of them, and you see a very hazy outline, like I'm gonna show you this random Like it's pretty hazy, it's pretty faint.

You can project whatever you want onto them.

And like, especially if you're not rich and you didn't have like an oil painting of them or even like a sketch of them, you know, like like literally, these are things I know from Noble Blood where you know, what's his face.

King Henry the bad Guy was like, send me an oil painting of her so I know if she's pretty and yeah, and it's like, oh yeah, because you would have to know what people look like.

The only way that you could get a picture of a person from one place to another was like have a full oilting done.

And that's the plot of Portrait of.

A Lady on Fire.

Well, so this is going to lead to a little bit of trouble for Mumler.

A man visits the studio, sees like the gallery of other ghost pictures and happened to see that one of the ghost figures is his own wife.

I was about that, and she is alive and had also had a photo taken at Mummler studio actually back when it was Hannah's studio, before this whole spirit photo was taken.

And what I love is he says that she remembered the sitting so well because she had worn a distinctive hat and didn't like it and then hated the photos, which is so funny to me, because who among us hasn't been like, ooh, I'm getting a photo taken.

I'll try a new hat and then you're like, oh, no, I'm not a hat person.

And the hat, the distinctive hat, was in the spirit pot.

And you can tell that he was like a really good husband because he listened when she was complaining about her hats.

And I can totally imagine like a sitcom husband being like, who when when my wife can't stop talking about her hat, and he's like not paying attention, He's just like watching the eighteen sixties version of sports.

But like he listened, He listened.

This is why you have to listen to your wife when she's complaining about how much she wishes she didn't wear her hat, is because sometimes you end up busting open a conspiracy.

And this guy actually was a spiritualist and said he had been really excited that these photos might have been real, but spiritualists need to be diligent about the facts.

The Herald of Progress around this time revokes Guy's endorsement, and they basically say that we had not had a long or intimate acquaintance with mister g.

We had felt satisfied of his integrity, But we're persuaded that our endorsement was a little premature.

So we're not saying he was deliberately untruthful, but we don't hesitate to say that he is not a strong enough witness to say that like he's you know, fully reliable.

So we're just with drawing our endorsement of it.

What also is about to happen is a woman sent a spirit photo that she had taken and a photo of her mom that she actually had a photo of her mom who died, and sent the photos to the Banner of Light to be like, hey, what do you guys think, what are you at this spiritualist newspaper?

Think of this comparison?

Like it kind of looks like my mom, right, this like blurry, indiscriminate, you know, white form sort of looks like my mom.

And so these two photos are kind of hanging around the office and an editor happens to see them and is like that ghost looks familiar and goes to a friend.

You also had a spirit photo taken, and it was like this same ghost, the same ghosts both photos.

Because like kind of a lot of moms look away.

Well, just like it's also hazy it's very you know, these photos are really washed out.

And then a third friend sees the pictures and knows who the He's like, oh, I know who that ghost is, and she's alive.

And then she had the exact same photo of herself that she had taken at the gallery.

Mumler does not defend himself at all.

He just quiets down and doesn't do anything.

The banner of light that this spiritual newspaper launches this anti Mumler campaign, you know, withdrew the endorsement, drag his reputation through the mud.

Doctor Gardner turns against him.

He just sort of withdraws from the spotlight.

By the end of eighteen sixty five, there are just no more accounts of Mumler taking photos in Boston.

He's making a little money selling like illustrations and edited photos.

What happens is the Civil War is one yay yay.

And there's a story about how Jefferson Davis, when he was running away, wore his wife's clothes to try to get away.

And so isn't it silly that this Confederate general they caught him and he was wearing his wife's dress.

Yeah, he wasn't he wore his like wife's coat.

Okay, but it's like the Northerners selling political cartoons.

He was like an address.

Yeah, and so Mumbler like makes some money sell it this like spliced illustration of like the real Jefferson Davis's head and uh, you know, an illustration of the dress.

That's it's like a fun sake to have.

Yeah, it's actually like a pretty clever photo manipulation.

So it's like he's good at this.

Yeah, he's making memes of the day, he's making he's selling memes.

He's selling memes.

Guy goes back to Louisiana, opens his own photo studio that it goes broke, and then he comes back to the Mummlers and convinces William Mumler to give Spirit photography another try.

Move into New York City, let's get out of Boston.

So in begin we're gonna try it again in eighteen sixty eight.

I guess if you now have all these pictures of people from Boston who nobody's gonna recognize, yeah, it's all the way in New York you can you can sort of reuse them and maybe it'll last a little longer before you get caught, so.

Let's go on down to New York.

They in eighteen sixty eight they borrow a studio from another photographer named W.

W.

Silva, never changed the name on the door, so it's like a little under the radar, gotta like.

And it's pretty near Barnum's American Museum, which had burned down in a fire was then rebuilt.

So all those Mumbler photos.

First, yes, I remember that plot point from the mediocre musical.

Yeah, so at first Silver is not happy that his name is going to be associated with spirit photography.

But then he gets his spirit photo taken and he's like, well, I'm convinced.

And what happened is enough people are heartbroken from the Civil War that Mummer becomes very very popular again.

Oh okay, people get these photos.

The spiritualist population, ironically, like the establishment of the Spiritualism movement, is I would say, ambivalent to unhappy about this.

They the New York Spiritualist Conference tries to send in a committee to investigate, which Mumbler refuses unless they pay for all their pictures in advance, and they pass a resolution basically saying like Mumler is not willing to be investigated so we're not we can't like endorse him.

I know, but also like get creative, like you can investigate without like a like go undercover.

Well, Lizzie, what is that what they do?

Momler?

I think it's just like send a pretty girl to like like be like tell me about your things, about your process.

Yeah, like how do camera work.

Well it's not going to be a pretty girl, but it is going to be a journalist.

Yes, so, Momler I think is very proud of himself as a photographer.

Yeah.

And he submits several of his best spirit photos to be displayed in the photographic sections March eighteen seventy nine convocation at Cooper Union, so basically like a convention for photographers.

And he's you know, proud because he sees them as a application of technology.

And he also defends what he's doing with the spear photos as comforting people.

He says, what joy to the troubled heart, what balm to the eight breast?

Okay, this man, Patrick V.

Hickey sees the exhibition.

He's the science correspondent for the New York World, and he decides he's going to investigate.

He's also a Catholic.

He's a very Catholic boy.

Yeah, so he's not happy about this.

He decides that he's going to investigate.

He goes to Mumler's studio, I guess Silver studio and decides that he's just gonna watch what happens.

And what he doesn't like is that he's being peer pressured by like quote unquote fellow customers who like feel like they're paid.

Patsy's like another customer sitting in the waiting room is like, oh, ten dollars for a dozen images.

Many persons would gladly give a thousand dollars to obtain the likeness of a deceased friend or relative.

And You're like, you're being pushy.

And also the assistant who lets him in says, oh, yeah, my name is Silver, but really it's Guy.

But he's going by Silver now.

And he listens as assistant are pressing sitters for detailed physical descriptions of their loved ones to be like, oh, what color was their hair?

And so he's watching, he sees that Mummler and his you know, female assistant who presumably is Hannah, are like very particular about where they pose people.

He he smells something fishy.

He's seeing the tricks of the trades.

So he goes down to the newly elected Mayor's office, the new mayor Abraham Oak, who incidentally hates the Mayor of New York the mayor of New York City.

I don't know what other mayor I thought it would be, but I felt they need to clarify the.

Mayor of New York City.

And incidentally, this mayor has political opponent to our spiritualists just sort of wants to, you know, thumb it to them.

Cool.

The mayor sends his marshal named Joseph H.

Tucker, which is like TJ.

Hooker.

Tucker goes in with a fake name, asks for a photo with his father in law, gets the photo, says that's not my father in law, and arrests Mumbler for fraud, for ghost fraud, for ghost fraud.

Because he's saying, you will I'm going to take a photo of you with your father in law.

That's what you're paying for, and he's like, that is not a photo of my father in law.

This is fraud.

I'm arresting you for ghost fraud.

Feels like that should not be a matter for the police.

Well, it goes to court.

Mumler plea not guilty.

Yep, gets a fight like a guy whose nickname is the fighting lawyer, John D.

Townsend.

You would think they would all kind of be that, but.

He is like a famous criminal defense attorney who gets people off for murder.

Okay, And the prosecution is led by a man named Elbridge Gary.

Does that name sound familiar.

Dana, you know it does not?

Okay, Well, we're talking about nineteenth century New York City attorneys.

Well, he's the grandson of James Madison's vice president, Elbridge Gary.

Who's the person who jerry mandering is named after?

James Madison's vice pre jerry mandering.

Everyone knows what jerry mandering is.

Did I know that was named after I know what jerry mandering is.

There's a John Mullaney bit.

Did I know that jerry mandering was named after a person?

I did not?

Okay, Well it is, but it should be Gary Mandering because it's named after Elbridge Gary.

Okay.

Well, the trial begins, or the preliminary hearing before they would send the case.

The grand jury begins April twenty first, eighteen sixty nine.

And really they say that he's committing fraud and theft.

I mean he is.

But again like, okay, well we're doing it.

Okay, Okay, they are proving if he is faking these ghosts photos, it is fraud.

And so they have to prove that he's faking these ghost photos and as opposed to the fact that these ghost photos are real.

That is the trial.

Okay, great, Great.

The judge is named Judge Joseph Dowling.

I'm very gonna be like of dowl the Mambering and I.

Should know that.

Yeah, you should know.

You know, nineteen.

Cents Dowling Court and the Dowling versus the Board of Education.

Uh No, I've never heard of him before.

Okay, it just seems like a nice judge.

I guess, I don't know, you might be really problematic.

And then I'm sorry I said that.

But the prosecute cancel basically comes up with all these ways that Mummler could have faked these photos.

Cool, and as it turns out.

I would enjoy being on this prosecutorial team.

It's not that hard to fake a ghost photo of Court.

I mean, are you Yeah, you just leave a little bit of the last photo there, You just don't wipe all of it off, right, and then you just do the next photo.

So that's the thing.

No, because like people when they're investigating, they said they cleaned the photo, they cleaned the.

Glasses, but you just don't clean that well, right, But that.

Is actually not how they're doing it, because it's like if someone's investigating, they're going to be like that better be a clean glass.

Clean clean clean.

So you're like, well, how are you.

Doing Okay, then how are they doing it?

Well, there's a few ways.

The easiest way is just having someone behind you for a second and then just like run, yeah, because it's the exposure time is so long that if you're only there for like a bit and then you leave, it'll be blurry and translucent.

But presumably that's not how they're doing it because someone would hear or notice, and also because now we know that they're repeating ghosts.

Yes, So basically, okay, they come up with these nine different ways that I'm going to read through and try to explain in I don't know, as simple a way as I can, which is that there's a positive slide in the plate holder in the camera in front of the sensitive plate, and this is how I think he is doing it, which basically, once you make the glass plate light sensitive.

If you show it another image, that image will be imprinted on the glass.

So when he is bringing the clean new glass plate over to the camera, he is really, you know, for a few seconds, having a photo like a photo negative of whatever he wants the ghost to be imprinting on it.

So it's basically a double exposure.

It's going that the plate is going to I'm putting this inn air quotes to see the picture of the ghost and then take the picture of the person, and then they're going to be on the same negative, gotcha.

And what's amazing about that is then when the negative is developed, you see both ghosts at the same time.

Yeah, because it also is very easy to layer two negatives on top of each other and then print a photo with both.

But some of the amazing thing that Mummler would do is you would see the developed negative with both ghosts.

Ah.

So maybe when he was doing the male order one, he would just layer two negatives to print it because that might be easier or quicker, But that wasn't what he was doing when people were in the studio.

So they also say, you know, the prosecution says a ghost figure in white could be introduced for a moment before the sitter and then withdrawn, which I don't think is what he was doing, but that is a method called Sir David Brewster's ghost.

They say a microscopic picture of the spirit form could be in the camera box alongside the lens.

That could happen also possible the glass with the spirit image is placed behind the sensitive plate after the sitting and then impressed on the plate, which also is possible.

Basically another image is being impressed on the same plate, either before or after the photo was taken.

They also say the silver nitrate bath could have a glass side and the image be impressed by a secret light, which that one feels a little like elaborate and tricky and unnecessarily complicated.

It's like very like like James Bond Villain.

There's another photo lab in the floor.

They say that the plate could be prepared with a quote dry process with the spirit form, and then later the living sitter is on the same plate, which is basically like the dirty plate theory, which again pretty easy and happens all the time by accident, like oh I didn't clean my glass plate.

Well r.

They say you could take a negative of the ghost and then take a positive from the negative, And to be honest, I don't understand what that means, but they have all these measures.

Basically, it's it's a fairly simple double exposure.

At some point in the process, it's doable.

At some point in the process.

He has these these negatives from old photos of people they've taken, and now they have a big catalog of photos they've taken.

So it's like, oh, you're looking for your wife, do you remember what she looks like?

Oh, brown hair, one of those.

And magazines are writing about this at the time, and in the magazine The Illustrated Photographer, someone who goes by Cardinal writes in and says he had a trick of how he would take photos of people with animal heads on the same negative that would develop to be like, haha, I'm going to take a photo of you cue, but it shows you how you really are.

Oh, and then it's like they show up and he describes the process of that in detail, and it's like, I used to do this all the time.

It's really easy.

Yeah.

I want to also thank the person the user on Reddit Naturalogue who found that in a discussion on spirit photography.

So shout out to you think you read it.

And again, these people have not seen their loved ones in a long time, probably never had a photo of them at all.

Most of the photos are pretty washed out and nondescript.

And it's also like, you know, you always look a little different in photos than you look in the mirror.

Yeah, so it's like you're seeing yourself in a photo for the first time and you're like, well, I look a little different, So maybe Teresa looks a little different.

And also, also, ghosts aren't real.

I don't even know if ghost aren't real, but I know they don't show up in photographs taken like this.

This is the Pet Barnum cammyon And.

I know that, And I know that ghosts aren't like silver people floating around.

Yeah, Like that's just not how that would work.

Yeah, when I say ghosts aren't real, I mean Mummler was not taking photos of you.

Like, I don't know what happens to the soul after you die, but I know that it doesn't look like your body.

But see through.

Well.

Pt Barnum agrees with you, and he becomes a witness for the prosecution.

He well, that's fucking stupid.

Don't listen to the acund Well.

Pet Barnum is like, these photos aren't real, and he brings in a photo of himself with the ghosts of Abraham Lincoln food in the background, just to prove how easy it is to get a spirit photo taken.

And he said, it doesn't even look like anything that looks like that looks like Lincoln.

No, I mean it does, but I'm saying that that just looks like a photo of pet Barnum that someone doodled on, Like that doesn't look like a faked spirit photo.

That just looks like a photo that somebody like did like a Lincoln smudge.

Well, okay, okay, he even says, because they're like, aren't you you know he says, I've never been in the humbug business.

I have always given people the worth for their money.

Because he's like, I just present things to entertain people.

I'm not claiming your senior dead relatives.

This sounds like to like, this is like doctor Phil having a fight with doctor Oz.

Like this is like where I'm just like, okay, I don't I guess you guys give different advice, but like, just you should both shut up.

Do you think if you were the judge, would you be convinced.

By this by P.

T.

Barnum specifically just by the way of the evidence, Yes, but I don't know, like what like, I don't know that it like rises to the level of like illegal fraud.

But it's not.

It's not the question of whether it rises to the level of fraud, it's if he is is he faking these photos?

Yeah, because it's not ghosts.

Well, the because I would say, like I would like to know which one.

I would just say, like, bring that fucking camera into court and take it apart and show me which one it is, Like, don't give me nine options.

Like I'm the judge and I subpoena that camera and I want to know which one it is, and that's my ruling, is.

The judge, Well, they don't do that.

Well, that's crazy.

The defense lawyer, this fighting lawyer who gets men off for murder, gets Marshall, took her on the stand and proves that he doesn't know what his father in law looked like he was like it turns out that ticker never actually met his father in law.

Well was this stupid?

That was a stupid investigation for him to run?

Then why are you stupid.

Why on earth did he choose that example?

Terrible example?

And then he talks about because all these people are like, well, I'm a good Christian, I don't believe in ghosts.

And he finds all these Bible passages that mentioned spirits, because like, spirits are in the Bible.

And this lawyer also says, okay, in Mumler's defense, when you show up, he says, they never guarantee that you'll get a spirit.

They just say, like, sometimes you get a spirit.

So it's not fraud because they're not guaranteeing anything.

They're just saying, and you can't prove how it's done.

You're just proving that there are like nine different ways someone can do it.

Yeah, So you're not proving that it's not real.

Yeah, And so Mommar gets off the judge.

This is how the judge, I mean, yeah, because yeah, will you read this is the judge's ruling.

However, I might believe that trick and deception has been practiced by the prisoner.

As I sit here in my capacity of magistrate, I am compelled to decide that the prosecution has failed to prove the case.

Yeah, I mean, listen, that's in our legal system.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Yeah, Mumler moves back to Boston.

He keeps taking spirit photographs, keeps doing it by mail, but.

With he's not making these people pay for this.

Exactly, but with less attention, the interest and spiritualism is kind of waning, you know.

Hannah keeps working as this like spiritual healer with like what she calls like magnetism.

Mumbler gets more interested in the science side of photography, which is another possible way of how he did it, which is just somehow controlling the chemical reaction for the double exposure in ways that like I just I don't know.

He invents a thing called the Mummler process, which is what allows newspapers to print directly from photos before you need like someone to copy it or engrave it in wood.

And he invents the like electrochemical process that allows newspapers to actually print images.

So he like contributed to society like a ton.

When he dies in eighteen eighty four, fifteen years after his trial, his obituary barely mentions the spirit photography.

They said.

It says William H.

Mumler, a well known inventor and treasurer of the Photo Electrotype Company, which is the Mumbler Process Company, died at his residence.

He had much inventive genius and a taste for experiment, which finally resulted in the discovery of what is known as the Mumbler process, which blah blah blah, and then at the last end and it goes.

The deceased at one time gained considerable notoriety in connection with spirit photographs.

Like he I think what he did was technologically impressive.

I think he probably used They're all these different ways of taking spirit photos.

I think he used probably a few of them based on who was watching at the time and which way would be least detecting.

What was interesting is they always appeared on the same negative.

Yeah, which is like the interesting thing he was doing.

But this is a man who knows his way around camera technology.

Yeah.

So even though he sort of withdrew from the public eye and public you know, spiritualist communities, he's going to take his most famous spirit photo three years after the trial, and it's I'm going to show you this photo.

Is this famous by Dana standards?

Or Am I going to recognize this?

I think you might recognize this.

Do you recognize that woman or the person behind him, behind her, behind her?

Thank you the Well maybe it's just because you put it in my head, but the guy looks like Lincoln.

It's Lincoln, okay, And he guesses on who you think that is?

Is that Mary Todd?

That is Mary Todd Lincoln.

Three years after this trial, Mary Todd Lincoln goes to Mummler for a spirit photo.

This is said I'm saying.

Lincoln had been assassinated seven years before.

Mary Todd had actually gone to Mumler one time earlier in eighteen sixty nine to get a photo with her brother, Captain Todd, who I think her half brothers actually fought for the Confederacy, but uh, he was presumed dead and got a spirit photo of him, and then it turns out he was actually alive.

Oh no.

The photo wasn't publicized out of respect for Lincoln's reelection campaign happening at the time, because it was like crazy Mary Todd, always doing her thing with an embarrassing family.

But also clearly the fact that they took a photo of a ghost who was alive did not dissuade her from this.

And she goes back to Mumler.

She clearly knew about the trial, they claimed the Mumlerts claim that she used a false name and they didn't recognize her except Hannah saw the ghost of Lincoln hanging around, and so that's how they knew who she was.

Maybe, but they get this photo of her, and it's kind of the most famous spirit photo that exists because it's Mary Todd Lincoln and the ghost or ghost form of Abraham Lincoln with his hands on her shoulder.

Yeah, it's very sweet.

That's that's kord of comforting her.

Sort of the story of Mumbler and spirit photography.

Lizzie, how bad of a hoax do you think it is, you know, on the scale of a hoax of flim flame.

I'd say it's somewhere in the middle.

I think it is funny that that Barnum was against him in a in a Doctor Phil, doctor Oz.

It's very alien verse predator.

It is alien versus predator.

I mean, this is the thing that I always and it like reminded me of like all those AI startups that are gonna let you like talk to dead people, and I'm like, that's so gross.

This is the this is the thing that I struggle with with things that supposedly bring people comfort.

Yeah, because that's an argument or no.

No, I don't want to say argument because it sounds like I'm like in conflict with people when I'm really just like having discussions with my friends.

But like that is a sort of point people bring up about like astrology or even like religion, but not like I don't have a problem with religion, because that's like an entire belief system, but like various beliefs that people have that I sort of think are like a little bit shaky where they're like, oh, well, it's like comforting to go to a psychic or a medium or a clairvoyant or whatever, and when people are in grief or when people are really confused, or when people are like going through a breakup or this, that and the other, and if it brings them clarity or it brings them comfort, like isn't that a good thing?

And my sort of like counterpoint to that is, like that is exactly when you shouldn't take money from people is when they're vulnerable, Like that's exactly when you shouldn't take advantage of people, is when they're in the midst of grief, like that's exactly when you shouldn't lie to people at the same time, like Jesus, who am I to say that a Civil war widow isn't allowed to get their picture taken like man like spend your ten bucks, Like I'm I do not judge the war widow.

And I'm also certainly not in a position to be like and you're a victim, and he was taking advantage of those people, like you know what, like whatever, it's ten bucks, like it's a it's a picture, like it is a memento.

It's a memento at the end of the day, like it probably is harmless, like I'm not gonna get my panties in a twist over pictures.

I mean, that really is kind of where I stand, because it's like at this is an era where you don't have things to hold on too of your loved one, Like if you've never taken a photo with them, you don't like anything.

You have, like their jacket or like the wrote you oh yeah, if.

They died in the Civil War, you wouldn't have gotten their hair, Like you wouldn't have even hair jewelry to make you might not get a memento that like to take a photo with them is a thing you can have and keep.

But then it's isn't it kind of fucked up that it's like now I have this photo of like you know, me and just some random.

Guy, and that this person is like claiming is a ghost.

Yeah, I like a little bit.

I agree.

It's like I don't blame them, for lack of a better word, the people who do this.

It's like a little shame on you one more.

It's weird.

It's like I understand like why it was popular.

It shouldn't have gone to trial, but it did.

Yeah, it's like weird to make it a legality thing, and it was.

Sort of spiritualism on trial.

It's spiritualism on trial.

I mean.

My thing is like to get around the whole legality thing and like just offer refunds, like I don't know, if someone finds out their photos fake, like I don't know, offer people's money back and then you are allowed to operate in peace.

But they also always said you might not get a spirit photo, and so it's like you didn't get a spirit photo, you got a dirty plate with some random persons, like you know, like whatever.

Yeah, so like I don't I don't think it's like the worst thing in the world because it's not like an on you know, it's not one of those ongoing things where you claim that you can talk to someone and they come back week after.

Week and give you more and more money.

And you know you have sort of this like ongoing relationships, Like it's a one time memento.

No one's going broke, and no one's going broke, no one's driving themselves crazy, no one's living in delusion, and no one's like basing their entire worldview on like no like the ghost is around or whatever.

Like I mean, if you believe that you know your loved one is with you in spirit, like please go on believing that and like communicating with them.

Just like don't give a random stranger with a shop money about it, like you know what I mean, Like have that in your heart, not like in your pocket book, but so like yeah, like ninety percent harmless ten percent, like don't set up a business based on taking people's money for their loved ones.

Like I don't.

Agree with that.

Well, that is the story of Mamler, an accomplished chemist and photographer.

That's very cool, like honestly, And the other thing is like Trick photography school.

Right.

What I kind of find not ironic, that's not the right word.

But interesting is that as the person who developed the Mumbler process, which meant that newspapers can now have photos.

That's very cool.

But he sort of ushered in this like seeing is believing era.

We're a photo is news and now we have to see it.

And he knew more than anyone that photos can be faked, and especially now with like AI photos.

I just think it's sort of I guess it is ironic.

That's really played both sides.

Yeah, that's someone whose fortune was in faking photos also was key to creating the era where photos made news real.

And if you know how they do the hitchhiking ghosts at the Hunted Mansion, right in and tell me.

I know how they do the Walton ghosts in the ballroom.

That's just a Pepper's ghost illusion, which means they have like mannequins behind plexiglass.

That's fun.

I want to know how they do the hitchhiking ghosts.

I've like watched a YouTube on how they do the hitchhiking ghost but I don't remember what it was.

Lizzie, where can the people find you.

Do you have an Instagram account?

Now I do.

It's private at the moment, but if you quest to follow me, I'll probably just.

Let you, or just follow the Hoax account.

Yeah, I'll you could definitely follow the Hoax account.

That's Lizzie.

That's also me doing that, So if you message it, that's me.

It's at Hoax the podcast.

I'm Danas Schwartz with three z's and you can always email hoaxthpodcast at gmail dot com.

And rate review, subscribe on all the podcast platforms and we'll be back in two weeks.

Hoax Responsibly Bye.

Hoax is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

Our hosts are Danish Schwartz and Lizzie Logan.

Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima L.

K Ali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk.

Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery.

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio is the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for listening.

Thank you