1 00:00:00,233 --> 00:00:01,601 You know, we really want 2 00:00:01,601 --> 00:00:04,070 people to adapt to new technologies 3 00:00:04,070 --> 00:00:04,471 and that’s why 4 00:00:04,471 --> 00:00:06,139 you have so much excitement. 5 00:00:06,139 --> 00:00:07,907 Reskilling is bloody hard. 6 00:00:07,907 --> 00:00:08,775 And why is it hard? 7 00:00:08,775 --> 00:00:11,144 Because we are asking our workforce 8 00:00:11,144 --> 00:00:12,746 to change who they are. 9 00:00:17,851 --> 00:00:18,952 Welcome to WorkLab, 10 00:00:18,952 --> 00:00:20,420 the podcast from Microsoft. 11 00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:21,388 I’m Molly Wood. 12 00:00:21,721 --> 00:00:22,322 On WorkLab, 13 00:00:22,322 --> 00:00:23,923 we talk to experts about AI 14 00:00:23,923 --> 00:00:25,325 and the future of work, 15 00:00:25,325 --> 00:00:26,493 from how the technology 16 00:00:26,493 --> 00:00:28,595 can supercharge human capabilities 17 00:00:28,595 --> 00:00:30,363 to how it can transform 18 00:00:30,363 --> 00:00:31,865 entire organizations. 19 00:00:31,865 --> 00:00:33,666 Our guest today on location 20 00:00:33,666 --> 00:00:35,301 is Raffaella Sadun. 21 00:00:35,301 --> 00:00:36,036 Raffaella is 22 00:00:36,036 --> 00:00:37,170 the Charles E. Wilson 23 00:00:37,170 --> 00:00:39,072 Professor of Business Administration 24 00:00:39,072 --> 00:00:40,173 at Harvard Business School, 25 00:00:40,173 --> 00:00:41,241 where we are today. 26 00:00:41,241 --> 00:00:42,542 She co-chairs The Project 27 00:00:42,542 --> 00:00:44,611 on Managing the Future of Work 28 00:00:44,611 --> 00:00:45,812 and co-leads 29 00:00:45,812 --> 00:00:47,747 the Digital Reskilling Lab, 30 00:00:47,747 --> 00:00:48,481 where she studies 31 00:00:48,481 --> 00:00:49,382 how strategies 32 00:00:49,382 --> 00:00:50,417 can actually change 33 00:00:50,417 --> 00:00:52,719 day to day work and performance. 34 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:55,121 Raffaella is also a research leader 35 00:00:55,121 --> 00:00:56,356 on a new collaboration 36 00:00:56,356 --> 00:00:57,424 between Microsoft 37 00:00:57,424 --> 00:00:59,059 and Harvard Business School. 38 00:00:59,059 --> 00:01:00,527 This is a pioneering effort 39 00:01:00,527 --> 00:01:01,594 that is dedicated 40 00:01:01,594 --> 00:01:02,729 to advancing research 41 00:01:02,729 --> 00:01:04,197 and practical learning 42 00:01:04,197 --> 00:01:05,465 on how AI can drive 43 00:01:05,465 --> 00:01:07,033 strategic business value 44 00:01:07,267 --> 00:01:08,835 and empower the workforce. 45 00:01:08,835 --> 00:01:10,570 Raffaella, welcome to WorkLab. 46 00:01:10,570 --> 00:01:11,471 Thank you for having me. 47 00:01:12,605 --> 00:01:14,941 So, talk a little bit about your work, 48 00:01:14,941 --> 00:01:15,375 if you would. 49 00:01:15,375 --> 00:01:15,875 You have been 50 00:01:15,875 --> 00:01:17,911 studying management and work 51 00:01:17,911 --> 00:01:19,646 since the early 2000s. 52 00:01:19,646 --> 00:01:20,814 Can you reflect a little bit 53 00:01:20,814 --> 00:01:22,482 on what you have seen 54 00:01:22,482 --> 00:01:24,517 just in the past three years? 55 00:01:24,517 --> 00:01:25,652 Yes. 56 00:01:25,652 --> 00:01:27,987 So what we have seen over the past 57 00:01:27,987 --> 00:01:29,522 three years is in some ways 58 00:01:29,522 --> 00:01:32,392 very similar to what we saw in the 59 00:01:32,392 --> 00:01:34,027 with the past technological 60 00:01:34,027 --> 00:01:36,329 waves of ICTs and computers. 61 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:37,030 Meaning, 62 00:01:37,030 --> 00:01:39,032 there is this tremendous excitement 63 00:01:39,032 --> 00:01:39,899 and expectation 64 00:01:39,899 --> 00:01:41,434 that we are at the beginning 65 00:01:41,434 --> 00:01:43,536 of a new technological revolution. 66 00:01:43,536 --> 00:01:44,904 And then at the same time, 67 00:01:44,904 --> 00:01:46,272 you also see the frustration 68 00:01:46,272 --> 00:01:46,573 I’m seeing. 69 00:01:46,573 --> 00:01:48,942 Okay, but this major revolution, 70 00:01:48,942 --> 00:01:50,076 I don’t see it yet 71 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:51,478 impacting productivity. 72 00:01:51,478 --> 00:01:52,579 I haven’t seen it. 73 00:01:52,579 --> 00:01:53,580 It’s everywhere. 74 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:53,880 You know, 75 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,615 there is the famous solo paradox. 76 00:01:55,615 --> 00:01:57,050 You see computers everywhere 77 00:01:57,050 --> 00:01:59,152 except for the productivity statistics, 78 00:01:59,152 --> 00:02:01,321 and it feels a little bit like that. 79 00:02:01,321 --> 00:02:03,556 Now, what is different now? 80 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:04,524 I think what’s different 81 00:02:04,524 --> 00:02:06,860 is the promise of this technology. 82 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:11,030 AI has the capabilities of summarizing 83 00:02:11,030 --> 00:02:12,232 and allowing people 84 00:02:12,232 --> 00:02:13,099 to access 85 00:02:13,099 --> 00:02:14,801 tacit knowledge, that is typically, 86 00:02:15,969 --> 00:02:18,705 you know, exclusive to experts. 87 00:02:18,705 --> 00:02:19,739 So now 88 00:02:19,739 --> 00:02:20,974 we have this incredible 89 00:02:20,974 --> 00:02:22,709 promise of making knowledge 90 00:02:22,709 --> 00:02:24,277 available and usable 91 00:02:24,277 --> 00:02:26,312 and potentially productive to everyone. 92 00:02:26,312 --> 00:02:27,580 And this feels 93 00:02:27,580 --> 00:02:30,583 like a potentially revolutionary 94 00:02:30,884 --> 00:02:33,920 change for people and for companies, 95 00:02:34,087 --> 00:02:34,988 but it also entails 96 00:02:34,988 --> 00:02:36,156 some difficulties in 97 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:37,490 how exactly are we going 98 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:39,659 to introduce this incredible knowledge 99 00:02:39,659 --> 00:02:41,394 in what we do in organizations? 100 00:02:41,394 --> 00:02:42,395 And that’s the 101 00:02:42,395 --> 00:02:43,563 I think that’s the challenge 102 00:02:43,563 --> 00:02:46,633 that AI poses to firms and workers. 103 00:02:47,033 --> 00:02:48,067 It’s interesting that you say 104 00:02:48,067 --> 00:02:50,069 it has echoes of the past, 105 00:02:50,637 --> 00:02:52,939 and I wonder how 106 00:02:52,939 --> 00:02:54,207 I wonder how significant 107 00:02:54,207 --> 00:02:54,707 you’re finding it in 108 00:02:54,707 --> 00:02:56,476 terms of the work that you’re doing, 109 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:58,711 the potential for gen AI, 110 00:02:58,711 --> 00:03:00,146 and then, of course, the reskilling 111 00:03:00,146 --> 00:03:01,181 that we’re going to spend a lot of time 112 00:03:01,181 --> 00:03:01,881 talking about. 113 00:03:01,881 --> 00:03:03,249 I think the echoes from the past 114 00:03:03,249 --> 00:03:05,552 is that you really need to think about 115 00:03:05,552 --> 00:03:08,321 your own firm’s specific way 116 00:03:08,321 --> 00:03:10,757 of incorporating this new technology 117 00:03:10,757 --> 00:03:11,991 into what you do, 118 00:03:11,991 --> 00:03:13,493 how you create value, 119 00:03:13,493 --> 00:03:14,994 how your workers 120 00:03:15,261 --> 00:03:18,264 are organized, how people think. 121 00:03:18,398 --> 00:03:18,932 And so, 122 00:03:18,932 --> 00:03:19,799 you know, in the past, 123 00:03:19,799 --> 00:03:21,367 we had this notion of the 124 00:03:21,367 --> 00:03:23,136 J curve of productivity, 125 00:03:23,136 --> 00:03:24,871 meaning when there is a new technology, 126 00:03:24,871 --> 00:03:27,774 you first see a reorganization, 127 00:03:27,774 --> 00:03:29,809 and maybe a dip in productivity 128 00:03:29,809 --> 00:03:32,078 and then things take off. 129 00:03:32,078 --> 00:03:33,346 Here it feels like 130 00:03:33,346 --> 00:03:35,848 every firm is in its own J curve. 131 00:03:35,848 --> 00:03:37,050 Some J curves 132 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:38,551 look really deep 133 00:03:38,551 --> 00:03:40,753 with some amazing potential. 134 00:03:40,753 --> 00:03:41,888 Others are, you know, 135 00:03:41,888 --> 00:03:43,656 starting to see what’s coming. 136 00:03:43,656 --> 00:03:44,257 So it’s this 137 00:03:44,257 --> 00:03:45,491 incredible moment 138 00:03:45,491 --> 00:03:46,559 of trying 139 00:03:46,559 --> 00:03:48,127 and experimenting 140 00:03:48,127 --> 00:03:50,563 how AI could change what we do. 141 00:03:50,563 --> 00:03:50,930 Right. 142 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:51,998 And we’re early. 143 00:03:51,998 --> 00:03:52,765 We’re early enough 144 00:03:52,765 --> 00:03:53,733 to have an incredible impact. 145 00:03:53,733 --> 00:03:54,934 We are incredibly early in this journey. 146 00:03:54,934 --> 00:03:55,468 Yeah. 147 00:03:55,935 --> 00:03:57,470 Okay, so we alluded to 148 00:03:57,470 --> 00:03:59,172 this partnership between Microsoft 149 00:03:59,172 --> 00:04:00,306 and Harvard Business School 150 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,342 to develop what Microsoft 151 00:04:02,342 --> 00:04:03,843 is calling a Frontier Firm. 152 00:04:03,843 --> 00:04:05,245 How do you think about a Frontier Firm 153 00:04:05,245 --> 00:04:05,878 and why is this 154 00:04:05,878 --> 00:04:07,380 such an important framework? 155 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:07,680 You know, 156 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,983 I think of a Frontier Firm as a firm 157 00:04:09,983 --> 00:04:12,085 that first and foremost understands 158 00:04:12,085 --> 00:04:13,519 that this is the time to learn. 159 00:04:14,554 --> 00:04:16,022 Now, the question is, 160 00:04:16,022 --> 00:04:17,590 how are we going to learn 161 00:04:17,590 --> 00:04:20,126 how technology benefits us? 162 00:04:20,126 --> 00:04:20,727 And so for me, 163 00:04:20,727 --> 00:04:22,629 a Frontier Firm is a firm 164 00:04:22,629 --> 00:04:24,831 that is investing in the process 165 00:04:24,831 --> 00:04:27,767 for strategic experimentation 166 00:04:27,767 --> 00:04:29,302 and for taking the learnings 167 00:04:29,302 --> 00:04:31,104 from this experimentation 168 00:04:31,104 --> 00:04:33,039 back into the organization. 169 00:04:33,806 --> 00:04:34,974 What are you seeing emerge? 170 00:04:34,974 --> 00:04:37,243 So, as we try to identify firms 171 00:04:37,243 --> 00:04:38,444 that fit into this framework, 172 00:04:38,444 --> 00:04:40,446 that can be or will be 173 00:04:40,446 --> 00:04:42,081 or are Frontier Firms, 174 00:04:42,081 --> 00:04:43,983 what are the patterns 175 00:04:43,983 --> 00:04:45,218 that lead to, 176 00:04:45,218 --> 00:04:47,220 do you think, a successful reinvention? 177 00:04:47,587 --> 00:04:49,956 You know, I think it starts from 178 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:52,058 what are you about as an organization? 179 00:04:52,058 --> 00:04:54,227 I think this is pretty much the 180 00:04:54,661 --> 00:04:55,895 vision and the direction 181 00:04:55,895 --> 00:04:57,497 that then helps to structure 182 00:04:57,497 --> 00:04:59,766 these investments in a productive way. 183 00:04:59,766 --> 00:05:01,534 How are you going to be differentiated? 184 00:05:01,534 --> 00:05:02,902 What is the value that you create? 185 00:05:02,902 --> 00:05:04,937 I think that that’s, at a high level, 186 00:05:04,937 --> 00:05:06,639 having that clarity 187 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,207 is incredibly helpful 188 00:05:08,207 --> 00:05:10,310 because what happens next is 189 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:12,178 and then you start understanding 190 00:05:12,178 --> 00:05:14,013 that the experimentation is within 191 00:05:14,013 --> 00:05:15,848 specific strategic boundaries 192 00:05:15,848 --> 00:05:16,749 of value creation. 193 00:05:16,749 --> 00:05:17,750 And it could be delivering 194 00:05:17,750 --> 00:05:18,851 a better product 195 00:05:18,851 --> 00:05:20,253 or delivering a better service, 196 00:05:20,253 --> 00:05:22,755 or doing things at a lower cost, 197 00:05:22,755 --> 00:05:24,757 but you need that type of guidance. 198 00:05:24,757 --> 00:05:25,491 Different ideas 199 00:05:25,491 --> 00:05:27,026 are bubbling up everywhere, 200 00:05:27,026 --> 00:05:28,227 and I think that your role 201 00:05:28,227 --> 00:05:30,530 as an organization is to understand 202 00:05:30,530 --> 00:05:32,031 how do I make sense 203 00:05:32,031 --> 00:05:33,433 of all this activity in a way 204 00:05:33,433 --> 00:05:35,301 that comes back to me? 205 00:05:35,401 --> 00:05:36,769 Then, there’s a second piece, 206 00:05:36,769 --> 00:05:38,171 which is, I think, very important. 207 00:05:38,171 --> 00:05:39,605 Once you have understood 208 00:05:39,605 --> 00:05:40,840 what you want to do 209 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,343 and how AI can create value for you, 210 00:05:43,343 --> 00:05:44,410 how are you going to bring 211 00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:45,511 the organization with you? 212 00:05:46,612 --> 00:05:47,847 As we know, every time 213 00:05:47,847 --> 00:05:49,916 there is a major technological shift, 214 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:51,250 there are some 215 00:05:51,250 --> 00:05:52,452 parts of the organization 216 00:05:52,452 --> 00:05:54,420 that will feel like winners 217 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:55,722 and others where there will be 218 00:05:55,722 --> 00:05:57,523 tremendous fear of being replaced 219 00:05:57,523 --> 00:05:59,392 or even having to change. 220 00:05:59,392 --> 00:06:00,360 And so I think that that’s like 221 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,395 a second stage is building 222 00:06:02,395 --> 00:06:04,564 that buy-in and that adoption. 223 00:06:04,931 --> 00:06:05,865 That is essential 224 00:06:05,865 --> 00:06:08,034 to make sure that the new ideas don’t 225 00:06:08,034 --> 00:06:11,170 just stay with the lab in the firm 226 00:06:11,304 --> 00:06:12,839 or with a few people 227 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,273 who really see the future. 228 00:06:14,574 --> 00:06:16,209 And then, let’s say down the line, 229 00:06:16,209 --> 00:06:17,276 we will get to the more 230 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:18,945 managerial side of things, 231 00:06:18,945 --> 00:06:21,013 making sure that there is 232 00:06:21,013 --> 00:06:23,583 compliance and metrics and all of that. 233 00:06:23,583 --> 00:06:26,486 But we are very far from that step now. 234 00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:27,253 You know, it’s interesting. 235 00:06:27,253 --> 00:06:28,254 This kind of 236 00:06:30,056 --> 00:06:31,190 trend of almost what you’re 237 00:06:31,190 --> 00:06:32,825 describing as personalization 238 00:06:32,825 --> 00:06:33,826 to a company 239 00:06:33,826 --> 00:06:35,461 really keeps coming up that 240 00:06:35,461 --> 00:06:37,029 that a technology exists, 241 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:38,531 but if you try to apply it generally 242 00:06:38,531 --> 00:06:40,867 or you get distracted by every version 243 00:06:40,867 --> 00:06:42,402 and you don’t make it specific 244 00:06:42,402 --> 00:06:43,936 to your company, 245 00:06:43,936 --> 00:06:45,705 you can really go astray. 246 00:06:45,705 --> 00:06:46,572 I see this. 247 00:06:46,572 --> 00:06:48,574 I see this in the sense that 248 00:06:48,574 --> 00:06:50,676 it’s the part that is scary 249 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:52,111 and at the same time exciting. 250 00:06:52,111 --> 00:06:54,247 The scary part is there is no playbook. 251 00:06:54,247 --> 00:06:56,249 I think we just have to accept that. 252 00:06:56,249 --> 00:06:56,983 Right. 253 00:06:56,983 --> 00:06:58,751 And there is a lot of desire 254 00:06:58,751 --> 00:06:59,352 for a playbook. 255 00:06:59,352 --> 00:07:01,154 Just tell me what to do to implement 256 00:07:01,154 --> 00:07:02,688 this, I will win. 257 00:07:02,688 --> 00:07:03,289 Let me... of course. 258 00:07:03,289 --> 00:07:03,823 Of course! 259 00:07:03,823 --> 00:07:05,091 I mean, when I create a new... 260 00:07:05,091 --> 00:07:07,093 even for the most basic things, 261 00:07:07,093 --> 00:07:09,429 I think as humans, we need a playbook. 262 00:07:09,429 --> 00:07:10,196 This is a moment 263 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:11,497 of tremendous uncertainty, 264 00:07:11,497 --> 00:07:12,432 and oh my God, 265 00:07:12,432 --> 00:07:13,900 if only we had a playbook, 266 00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:15,101 that would be great. 267 00:07:15,101 --> 00:07:16,669 The reality is we don’t. 268 00:07:16,669 --> 00:07:18,704 And so I think that the issue is, 269 00:07:18,704 --> 00:07:20,807 how do we come up with 270 00:07:20,807 --> 00:07:22,542 something that really fits 271 00:07:22,542 --> 00:07:24,043 not only what we want to do, 272 00:07:24,043 --> 00:07:25,978 but our culture and our people? 273 00:07:25,978 --> 00:07:26,779 And so, as you can see, 274 00:07:26,779 --> 00:07:28,014 this becomes from 275 00:07:28,014 --> 00:07:30,116 just being a unidimensional 276 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:31,784 technological investment, 277 00:07:31,784 --> 00:07:33,152 this becomes something 278 00:07:33,152 --> 00:07:34,620 that is much more comprehensive. 279 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:35,621 It’s strategy, 280 00:07:35,621 --> 00:07:37,223 it’s people, it’s organization. 281 00:07:37,223 --> 00:07:38,891 And this is where I see 282 00:07:38,891 --> 00:07:39,959 companies really being 283 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:41,627 differentiated right now. 284 00:07:41,894 --> 00:07:43,663 Is this part of the the work, 285 00:07:43,663 --> 00:07:45,031 do you think, that this partnership 286 00:07:45,031 --> 00:07:46,332 could accomplish between Microsoft 287 00:07:46,332 --> 00:07:47,400 and Harvard Business School 288 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:48,701 or part of your research? 289 00:07:48,701 --> 00:07:50,636 There may not be an individual playbook 290 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:51,537 for every company, 291 00:07:51,537 --> 00:07:53,272 but certainly patterns 292 00:07:53,272 --> 00:07:54,640 will emerge, right? 293 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:55,641 I think that the 294 00:07:55,641 --> 00:07:58,411 the hope is that not only 295 00:07:58,411 --> 00:07:59,078 we develop 296 00:07:59,078 --> 00:08:00,913 understandings of what works 297 00:08:00,913 --> 00:08:03,449 and how things really work. 298 00:08:03,449 --> 00:08:04,283 My hope is that 299 00:08:04,283 --> 00:08:05,051 it will also show 300 00:08:05,051 --> 00:08:06,652 the importance of collaboration 301 00:08:06,652 --> 00:08:08,020 within humans and machines, 302 00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:09,188 which is, you know, something 303 00:08:09,188 --> 00:08:10,356 that is very important 304 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:11,591 not just for organizations, 305 00:08:11,591 --> 00:08:13,025 but for society. 306 00:08:13,259 --> 00:08:14,060 I believe that 307 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,062 what we might find out 308 00:08:16,062 --> 00:08:17,530 is that there is a playbook 309 00:08:17,530 --> 00:08:18,564 for learning, 310 00:08:19,198 --> 00:08:20,633 and we are used to talking 311 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:22,268 about the scientific method. 312 00:08:22,268 --> 00:08:24,837 There is no other moment in history 313 00:08:24,837 --> 00:08:26,772 where I think the scientific method, 314 00:08:26,772 --> 00:08:27,907 when it’s helpful 315 00:08:27,907 --> 00:08:28,774 because it helps 316 00:08:28,774 --> 00:08:30,309 you understand what hypothesis 317 00:08:30,309 --> 00:08:32,778 you want to test and understanding. 318 00:08:32,778 --> 00:08:33,913 You know, this 319 00:08:33,913 --> 00:08:35,081 distinguishing between 320 00:08:35,081 --> 00:08:36,349 fluff and reality. 321 00:08:37,450 --> 00:08:38,618 You brought up 322 00:08:38,618 --> 00:08:40,486 management and human 323 00:08:40,486 --> 00:08:41,621 and agent collaboration, 324 00:08:41,621 --> 00:08:43,122 and that is exactly where 325 00:08:43,122 --> 00:08:44,323 I want to go next, 326 00:08:44,323 --> 00:08:46,192 because that is a foundational element 327 00:08:46,192 --> 00:08:48,027 I think, of a of a Frontier Firm 328 00:08:48,027 --> 00:08:50,563 is the idea that every 329 00:08:50,563 --> 00:08:51,531 every employee, 330 00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:53,699 in a way, becomes a manager, 331 00:08:53,699 --> 00:08:56,269 now has an agent employee. 332 00:08:56,402 --> 00:08:57,036 Yeah. 333 00:08:57,236 --> 00:08:58,671 Talk about that mindset shift 334 00:08:58,671 --> 00:09:00,172 and how significant it is. 335 00:09:00,306 --> 00:09:01,941 I think it’s huge. 336 00:09:01,941 --> 00:09:03,743 But let’s start from the basics. 337 00:09:03,743 --> 00:09:05,177 Even today, it’s not like 338 00:09:05,177 --> 00:09:06,779 everybody is a good manager. 339 00:09:06,779 --> 00:09:07,747 I mean. 340 00:09:08,414 --> 00:09:09,715 Well, just ask them. 341 00:09:09,715 --> 00:09:10,816 They’ll tell you how good they are. 342 00:09:10,917 --> 00:09:11,484 Yeah, sure. 343 00:09:11,484 --> 00:09:11,951 I mean, I’m 344 00:09:11,951 --> 00:09:12,685 sure that there is 345 00:09:12,785 --> 00:09:13,719 and often 346 00:09:13,719 --> 00:09:15,521 also the ability of being 347 00:09:15,521 --> 00:09:16,389 a good manager 348 00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:17,356 is not necessarily 349 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:19,058 how successful you are 350 00:09:19,058 --> 00:09:20,927 from an individual standpoint, right? 351 00:09:20,927 --> 00:09:22,128 I mean, I think good managers 352 00:09:22,128 --> 00:09:24,030 bring the best out of people, 353 00:09:24,030 --> 00:09:24,997 especially in places 354 00:09:24,997 --> 00:09:26,866 where there is team production, 355 00:09:26,866 --> 00:09:29,402 and that’s an asset, 356 00:09:29,835 --> 00:09:31,437 recognizing that there are qualities 357 00:09:31,437 --> 00:09:32,705 in managerial capabilities 358 00:09:32,705 --> 00:09:33,639 is a starting point. 359 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:34,373 Now imagine 360 00:09:34,373 --> 00:09:37,143 you’re adding an agent in the equation, 361 00:09:37,143 --> 00:09:39,312 which is potentially incredibly 362 00:09:39,312 --> 00:09:40,646 knowing and, 363 00:09:40,646 --> 00:09:42,615 has infinite memory, potentially, 364 00:09:42,615 --> 00:09:45,117 so it’s like this very eager, 365 00:09:45,117 --> 00:09:46,953 new person on board. 366 00:09:46,953 --> 00:09:48,220 However, 367 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:49,755 it doesn’t always get it right. 368 00:09:49,755 --> 00:09:51,223 It’s very knowledgeable 369 00:09:51,223 --> 00:09:53,092 in some things and not in others, 370 00:09:53,459 --> 00:09:54,794 has a hard time telling you 371 00:09:54,794 --> 00:09:57,797 when it doesn’t know things, 372 00:09:57,997 --> 00:10:00,433 and needs specificity. 373 00:10:00,433 --> 00:10:00,766 Right? 374 00:10:00,766 --> 00:10:03,736 They need to know in it’s context. 375 00:10:03,736 --> 00:10:04,570 And so I think this is 376 00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:05,771 an incredible resource 377 00:10:05,771 --> 00:10:06,973 that managers need 378 00:10:06,973 --> 00:10:08,107 how to manage. 379 00:10:08,107 --> 00:10:10,743 Meaning, asking the right questions, 380 00:10:10,743 --> 00:10:12,912 understanding what can be delegated 381 00:10:12,912 --> 00:10:15,147 and what cannot be delegated, 382 00:10:15,147 --> 00:10:17,683 and also making sense of the answers. 383 00:10:17,683 --> 00:10:19,285 So more than an employee, 384 00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:20,786 I think it’s more like having 385 00:10:20,786 --> 00:10:22,888 a very eager apprentice 386 00:10:22,888 --> 00:10:24,123 and having the time 387 00:10:24,123 --> 00:10:25,825 to onboard that apprentice 388 00:10:25,825 --> 00:10:27,393 and that apprentice learn 389 00:10:27,393 --> 00:10:28,628 how to behave. 390 00:10:29,028 --> 00:10:30,196 I mean, I could really imagine 391 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:31,931 everything that you’re describing 392 00:10:31,931 --> 00:10:32,999 also making 393 00:10:32,999 --> 00:10:34,500 for better management of humans. 394 00:10:34,667 --> 00:10:35,501 A hundred percent. 395 00:10:35,501 --> 00:10:36,002 Oh my God. 396 00:10:36,002 --> 00:10:36,736 And we do need 397 00:10:36,736 --> 00:10:38,037 a lot of improvement there, too. 398 00:10:38,304 --> 00:10:39,005 Yeah. 399 00:10:39,372 --> 00:10:40,640 We’ll talk about middle management 400 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:41,574 in a minute, 401 00:10:41,574 --> 00:10:42,475 when we talk about your paper 402 00:10:42,475 --> 00:10:43,242 and reskilling. 403 00:10:43,376 --> 00:10:44,143 You have also, though, 404 00:10:44,143 --> 00:10:45,611 done a lot of research 405 00:10:45,611 --> 00:10:46,979 into how executives 406 00:10:46,979 --> 00:10:47,947 allocate their time. 407 00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:48,414 Yeah. 408 00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:49,882 What do executives 409 00:10:49,882 --> 00:10:51,217 and then I think on down 410 00:10:51,217 --> 00:10:52,151 the line 411 00:10:52,151 --> 00:10:53,219 need to change 412 00:10:53,219 --> 00:10:56,222 in order to optimize their use? 413 00:10:56,522 --> 00:10:57,823 First of all, 414 00:10:57,823 --> 00:10:58,791 the same ways in which 415 00:10:58,791 --> 00:11:01,027 there are no playbooks on how to 416 00:11:01,427 --> 00:11:02,428 leverage this technology, 417 00:11:02,428 --> 00:11:03,462 I think that this is something 418 00:11:03,462 --> 00:11:04,263 that we, 419 00:11:04,397 --> 00:11:06,666 we have to have the humility to know 420 00:11:06,666 --> 00:11:07,667 different ways, 421 00:11:07,667 --> 00:11:08,968 different leadership styles 422 00:11:08,968 --> 00:11:09,935 of approaching 423 00:11:09,935 --> 00:11:11,537 the questions which are emerging. 424 00:11:11,537 --> 00:11:13,472 My hunch is that it really depends on 425 00:11:13,472 --> 00:11:14,907 where the company is in its 426 00:11:16,142 --> 00:11:16,876 phases. 427 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:18,544 You know, at the very early stage 428 00:11:18,544 --> 00:11:19,178 where you’re trying 429 00:11:19,178 --> 00:11:20,846 to figure out the technology, 430 00:11:20,846 --> 00:11:21,814 I think a leader needs 431 00:11:21,814 --> 00:11:23,449 to be close to the action. 432 00:11:23,449 --> 00:11:23,983 And that’s 433 00:11:23,983 --> 00:11:25,651 because you are potentially 434 00:11:25,651 --> 00:11:27,253 redesigning how you create value 435 00:11:27,253 --> 00:11:29,088 in a very fundamental way, 436 00:11:29,088 --> 00:11:31,891 and you don’t want to spend or allocate 437 00:11:31,891 --> 00:11:33,359 time and resources in things 438 00:11:33,359 --> 00:11:35,695 that are not necessarily 439 00:11:35,961 --> 00:11:37,596 what’s truly important 440 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:38,631 for the organization. 441 00:11:38,831 --> 00:11:40,099 Also, it gives you credibility, 442 00:11:40,266 --> 00:11:42,101 the ability to go down 443 00:11:42,101 --> 00:11:43,736 to where the action takes place 444 00:11:43,736 --> 00:11:45,404 is important at this stage. 445 00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:45,971 Right. 446 00:11:46,072 --> 00:11:47,106 There is a second phase, 447 00:11:47,106 --> 00:11:48,607 which is more of the adoption 448 00:11:48,607 --> 00:11:49,742 and the diffusion. 449 00:11:49,742 --> 00:11:51,177 I think there it’s important 450 00:11:51,177 --> 00:11:52,745 to understand for the leader 451 00:11:52,745 --> 00:11:54,313 who is the key player 452 00:11:54,313 --> 00:11:55,481 to help you build 453 00:11:55,681 --> 00:11:57,717 buy-in in the organization. 454 00:11:58,017 --> 00:12:00,186 What’s fascinating is that 455 00:12:00,186 --> 00:12:02,655 there’s so much difference in, 456 00:12:02,655 --> 00:12:04,090 especially in larger organizations, 457 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:06,025 between the skeptics 458 00:12:06,025 --> 00:12:07,560 and the enthusiasts, 459 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:09,862 not necessarily correlated 460 00:12:09,862 --> 00:12:11,597 with their technical expertise. 461 00:12:11,664 --> 00:12:12,932 It’s more of a mindset, 462 00:12:12,932 --> 00:12:14,600 as we were discussing before. 463 00:12:14,767 --> 00:12:16,001 So I think identifying who 464 00:12:16,001 --> 00:12:17,603 these people are, 465 00:12:17,603 --> 00:12:19,238 in that phase to build buy-in, 466 00:12:19,238 --> 00:12:20,206 it’s like a playbook 467 00:12:20,206 --> 00:12:21,373 of change management, 468 00:12:21,373 --> 00:12:23,676 and that’s pretty crucial. 469 00:12:23,909 --> 00:12:24,944 To sort of restate it, 470 00:12:24,944 --> 00:12:26,312 find your internal heroes, 471 00:12:26,312 --> 00:12:27,146 your ambassadors. 472 00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:28,080 Yeah, absolutely. 473 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:28,647 And making sure 474 00:12:28,647 --> 00:12:30,883 that they have the credibility 475 00:12:30,883 --> 00:12:32,651 that is needed for 476 00:12:32,651 --> 00:12:33,919 for them to sort of 477 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:35,421 bring the others with them. 478 00:12:35,688 --> 00:12:38,424 I think it can potentially backfire 479 00:12:38,424 --> 00:12:39,625 to create metrics 480 00:12:39,625 --> 00:12:42,228 that are meant to capture compliance, 481 00:12:43,229 --> 00:12:44,697 when you are at a stage in which 482 00:12:44,697 --> 00:12:47,032 you are creating new processes 483 00:12:47,032 --> 00:12:48,934 and new ways of doing things. 484 00:12:49,435 --> 00:12:50,970 You want to create metrics 485 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:52,638 that are helpful to sustain 486 00:12:52,638 --> 00:12:54,707 this initial phase of exploration, 487 00:12:54,707 --> 00:12:56,709 which is not necessarily compliance. 488 00:12:57,076 --> 00:12:57,510 Right. 489 00:12:57,777 --> 00:12:58,844 Fascinating. 490 00:12:59,311 --> 00:13:01,213 Let’s move on to reskilling. 491 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,414 We’ve so far 492 00:13:02,414 --> 00:13:03,282 been talking about this 493 00:13:03,282 --> 00:13:04,216 as a growth mindset 494 00:13:04,216 --> 00:13:05,417 and a learning opportunity, 495 00:13:05,417 --> 00:13:07,953 but reskilling is a very specific 496 00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:10,089 piece of this that lets people 497 00:13:10,089 --> 00:13:10,790 keep up. 498 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:11,423 A few years ago, 499 00:13:11,423 --> 00:13:13,058 you co-wrote this award-winning article 500 00:13:13,058 --> 00:13:14,360 for Harvard Business Review called 501 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,428 Reskilling in the Age of AI. 502 00:13:16,529 --> 00:13:18,531 I want to go into these a bit, 503 00:13:18,531 --> 00:13:19,465 one at a time, 504 00:13:19,465 --> 00:13:21,634 but you laid out five paradigms 505 00:13:21,634 --> 00:13:22,902 for reskilling employees. 506 00:13:22,902 --> 00:13:24,069 Do you mind recapping those? 507 00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:24,570 Totally. 508 00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:26,305 I have them tattooed in my brain. 509 00:13:26,305 --> 00:13:27,239 I’m sure you do. 510 00:13:27,606 --> 00:13:28,908 But before we go there, 511 00:13:28,908 --> 00:13:30,176 I just want to say why, 512 00:13:30,176 --> 00:13:32,211 why we have these different paradigms, 513 00:13:32,211 --> 00:13:34,513 and I think that the fundamental 514 00:13:34,513 --> 00:13:36,148 starting point for us is 515 00:13:36,148 --> 00:13:37,483 reskilling is great, 516 00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:39,418 we really want people 517 00:13:39,418 --> 00:13:41,353 to adapt to new technologies, 518 00:13:41,353 --> 00:13:41,787 and that’s why 519 00:13:41,787 --> 00:13:43,389 you have so much excitement. 520 00:13:43,389 --> 00:13:44,957 Reskilling is bloody hard. 521 00:13:45,191 --> 00:13:46,125 I mean, that’s the other piece. 522 00:13:46,125 --> 00:13:46,992 And why is it hard? 523 00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:49,128 Because we are asking our workforce 524 00:13:49,128 --> 00:13:50,396 or people who sometimes 525 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:51,530 don’t even have a job, 526 00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:53,199 to change who they are, 527 00:13:53,199 --> 00:13:54,166 to change what they do, 528 00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:56,335 change even their professional identity. 529 00:13:56,569 --> 00:13:58,170 So if you state the problem 530 00:13:58,170 --> 00:13:59,071 in these terms, 531 00:13:59,071 --> 00:14:00,206 then you realize 532 00:14:00,206 --> 00:14:02,041 that reskilling is not people, 533 00:14:02,041 --> 00:14:03,409 is not putting people in a room 534 00:14:03,409 --> 00:14:04,610 and have them go through 535 00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:06,645 a PowerPoint or 536 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:09,582 a passive training program. 537 00:14:09,582 --> 00:14:10,182 But it’s something 538 00:14:10,182 --> 00:14:11,383 much more fundamental. 539 00:14:11,717 --> 00:14:12,585 The first piece is 540 00:14:12,585 --> 00:14:14,220 you start by specifying 541 00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:15,855 why is it that you want 542 00:14:15,855 --> 00:14:17,623 your people to be reskilled? 543 00:14:17,623 --> 00:14:19,291 What is the business rationale? 544 00:14:19,291 --> 00:14:22,294 And can you help create some certainty 545 00:14:22,628 --> 00:14:24,263 for the organization 546 00:14:24,263 --> 00:14:25,231 that tells them, okay, 547 00:14:25,231 --> 00:14:27,199 this is why we’re doing it, I see it. 548 00:14:27,199 --> 00:14:28,834 There might be a future for me 549 00:14:28,834 --> 00:14:30,269 because the organization 550 00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:31,971 is going in that direction. 551 00:14:31,971 --> 00:14:33,906 I think it starts from that clarity. 552 00:14:34,106 --> 00:14:35,474 The second piece is, 553 00:14:35,741 --> 00:14:37,042 I’m working through the hierarchy 554 00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:37,877 of the organization. 555 00:14:37,877 --> 00:14:39,345 Imagine you have 556 00:14:39,345 --> 00:14:40,779 a CEO who’s convinced 557 00:14:40,779 --> 00:14:42,314 that the workforce 558 00:14:42,314 --> 00:14:43,649 needs to be reskilled. 559 00:14:43,649 --> 00:14:45,251 And the second piece is 560 00:14:45,251 --> 00:14:48,254 this should not just be an HR problem, 561 00:14:48,454 --> 00:14:50,522 precisely because we are trying 562 00:14:50,522 --> 00:14:53,092 to achieve something that is bigger. 563 00:14:53,092 --> 00:14:54,760 This is a shared responsibility 564 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,262 of the whole organization, 565 00:14:56,262 --> 00:14:57,129 and especially at that 566 00:14:57,129 --> 00:15:00,132 very layer that reports to the CEO. 567 00:15:00,165 --> 00:15:01,634 Now you go down one level 568 00:15:01,634 --> 00:15:02,368 and you see, 569 00:15:02,601 --> 00:15:04,803 as soon as things change, 570 00:15:04,803 --> 00:15:06,839 there will be some uncertainty, 571 00:15:06,839 --> 00:15:08,507 some parts of the organization 572 00:15:08,507 --> 00:15:09,909 will always resist. 573 00:15:10,843 --> 00:15:13,212 And so I think here is where you think 574 00:15:13,212 --> 00:15:14,880 about, in particular, 575 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:15,381 that layer, 576 00:15:15,381 --> 00:15:17,082 that middle management layer. 577 00:15:17,082 --> 00:15:19,184 There are some incredible coaches 578 00:15:19,184 --> 00:15:21,353 and motivators in that layer, 579 00:15:21,353 --> 00:15:21,921 and there will be 580 00:15:21,921 --> 00:15:23,222 some other middle managers 581 00:15:23,222 --> 00:15:25,090 that see this as an anathema. 582 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:25,891 That’s something, you know, 583 00:15:25,891 --> 00:15:27,126 this is the additional thing 584 00:15:27,126 --> 00:15:28,560 I have to put on my plate. 585 00:15:28,827 --> 00:15:30,496 So let’s try and understand 586 00:15:30,496 --> 00:15:32,531 how do we build that layer, 587 00:15:32,531 --> 00:15:33,766 that middle management layer, 588 00:15:33,766 --> 00:15:35,567 in a way that is cooperating 589 00:15:35,567 --> 00:15:37,670 and understands what we’re doing? 590 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:40,673 Most important within the firm is 591 00:15:40,873 --> 00:15:41,507 put yourself 592 00:15:41,507 --> 00:15:43,509 in the shoes of your employees. 593 00:15:43,842 --> 00:15:46,145 You’re asking them to askew. 594 00:15:46,145 --> 00:15:48,147 Is it clear enough for them? 595 00:15:48,314 --> 00:15:49,782 This is a cost, right? 596 00:15:49,882 --> 00:15:51,417 So is it clear enough for them 597 00:15:51,417 --> 00:15:51,984 what’s coming 598 00:15:51,984 --> 00:15:53,352 after they’ve learned, 599 00:15:53,352 --> 00:15:55,754 or they’ve made an occupational switch. 600 00:15:56,121 --> 00:15:57,456 What’s the promise? 601 00:15:57,623 --> 00:15:58,290 Because, right now, 602 00:15:58,290 --> 00:15:59,959 people only see the cost. 603 00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:01,894 What’s the promise in terms of career? 604 00:16:01,894 --> 00:16:02,494 What’s the promise 605 00:16:02,494 --> 00:16:03,729 in terms of incentives? 606 00:16:03,729 --> 00:16:04,363 What’s the promise 607 00:16:04,363 --> 00:16:05,764 in terms of direction, 608 00:16:05,764 --> 00:16:07,032 which may be inside the firm 609 00:16:07,032 --> 00:16:08,100 or outside of firm? 610 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,303 A lot of this reskilling discussion now 611 00:16:11,503 --> 00:16:14,106 is done in a vacuum for employees. 612 00:16:14,239 --> 00:16:15,374 Within industries, 613 00:16:15,374 --> 00:16:16,575 there is a lot of knowledge. 614 00:16:16,675 --> 00:16:18,577 I think that the last piece is 615 00:16:18,577 --> 00:16:19,945 how do you put together 616 00:16:19,945 --> 00:16:20,546 the knowledge 617 00:16:20,546 --> 00:16:22,481 that is coming within your supply chain 618 00:16:22,481 --> 00:16:24,216 or within your ecosystem, 619 00:16:24,216 --> 00:16:25,250 so that you can learn 620 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:26,752 and potentially cooperate on 621 00:16:27,252 --> 00:16:31,190 how to reskill large at scale. 622 00:16:31,256 --> 00:16:31,824 Right. 623 00:16:32,224 --> 00:16:33,158 Create a playbook. 624 00:16:33,158 --> 00:16:33,592 Please! 625 00:16:33,592 --> 00:16:34,460 Please, yes! 626 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:35,127 I think you called that section 627 00:16:35,127 --> 00:16:35,894 “It Takes a Village.” Oh, yeah. 628 00:16:35,894 --> 00:16:37,029 Oh, yeah, totally. 629 00:16:37,029 --> 00:16:38,731 In of many, many industries, 630 00:16:38,731 --> 00:16:39,431 one of the 631 00:16:39,431 --> 00:16:40,632 really important pieces of this, 632 00:16:40,632 --> 00:16:41,400 as you’re saying, it’s 633 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,635 the responsibility of every leader 634 00:16:43,635 --> 00:16:44,870 and every manager, 635 00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:47,139 and that gets to that kind of middle 636 00:16:47,139 --> 00:16:48,474 manager layer. 637 00:16:48,474 --> 00:16:49,541 How do you build that 638 00:16:49,541 --> 00:16:51,143 sense of ownership 639 00:16:51,143 --> 00:16:52,611 across an organization? 640 00:16:53,012 --> 00:16:53,979 I think you make it... 641 00:16:53,979 --> 00:16:55,714 you make sure that the 642 00:16:55,714 --> 00:16:59,051 mentoring and coaching of people 643 00:16:59,051 --> 00:17:00,219 becomes part 644 00:17:00,219 --> 00:17:02,154 of the role of middle managers. 645 00:17:02,154 --> 00:17:03,122 You know, they do it. 646 00:17:03,122 --> 00:17:04,923 They do it every day. 647 00:17:04,923 --> 00:17:05,991 In some places, 648 00:17:05,991 --> 00:17:08,627 this type of activity is not rewarded. 649 00:17:08,627 --> 00:17:10,362 In other places, 650 00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:12,531 actually, it’s an expectation 651 00:17:12,531 --> 00:17:13,599 that middle managers 652 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,769 are evaluated for how they contribute 653 00:17:16,835 --> 00:17:19,104 not only to the financial performance, 654 00:17:19,104 --> 00:17:20,272 but also for the development 655 00:17:20,272 --> 00:17:21,340 of their people. 656 00:17:21,373 --> 00:17:23,042 And so I think at that level, 657 00:17:23,042 --> 00:17:25,177 it’s what do you reward? 658 00:17:25,344 --> 00:17:27,713 And do you make sure that the 659 00:17:27,713 --> 00:17:29,515 creation of human capital in your firm, 660 00:17:29,515 --> 00:17:30,916 because that’s what we are doing, 661 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:33,285 is something that is seen as 662 00:17:33,285 --> 00:17:35,220 currency in the organization. 663 00:17:35,621 --> 00:17:37,089 And then talk about techniques 664 00:17:37,089 --> 00:17:38,323 that work and don’t work. 665 00:17:38,323 --> 00:17:40,125 It was interesting to read that, 666 00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:41,927 for example, no one, 667 00:17:42,661 --> 00:17:43,762 All due respect to every 668 00:17:43,762 --> 00:17:44,763 corporation, everywhere, 669 00:17:45,531 --> 00:17:47,933 no one loves to 670 00:17:47,933 --> 00:17:49,001 sit in front of a computer 671 00:17:49,001 --> 00:17:50,202 and click through a training, 672 00:17:50,202 --> 00:17:51,203 that there are ways 673 00:17:51,203 --> 00:17:52,738 to accomplish reskilling 674 00:17:52,738 --> 00:17:53,806 that have better outcomes 675 00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:55,274 but also engage employees. 676 00:17:55,307 --> 00:17:55,774 Yeah. 677 00:17:56,141 --> 00:17:57,009 I mean, look, 678 00:17:57,009 --> 00:17:58,477 we have some studies 679 00:17:58,477 --> 00:18:00,379 that have done this also 680 00:18:00,379 --> 00:18:02,448 with population of workers that 681 00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:05,250 are being reskilled into the workforce, 682 00:18:05,551 --> 00:18:07,853 not just within an organization. 683 00:18:07,853 --> 00:18:09,788 Imagine how complicated that is. 684 00:18:10,022 --> 00:18:11,023 And these studies 685 00:18:11,023 --> 00:18:11,890 tell us that it’s 686 00:18:11,890 --> 00:18:13,192 typically much better 687 00:18:13,192 --> 00:18:15,094 to think about reskilling, 688 00:18:15,094 --> 00:18:16,929 not just on the technical side, 689 00:18:16,929 --> 00:18:19,164 but also there is 690 00:18:19,364 --> 00:18:21,967 a combination of hard and soft skills 691 00:18:21,967 --> 00:18:23,302 that are part of the program, 692 00:18:23,302 --> 00:18:25,437 so that’s the design of the program. 693 00:18:25,571 --> 00:18:26,905 It’s the cohort. 694 00:18:27,206 --> 00:18:28,607 Are you learning 695 00:18:28,607 --> 00:18:29,975 new things on your own, 696 00:18:29,975 --> 00:18:31,677 or are you part of a community 697 00:18:31,677 --> 00:18:33,178 or part of a movement? 698 00:18:33,812 --> 00:18:34,546 And then lastly, 699 00:18:34,546 --> 00:18:36,181 I think it’s also understanding 700 00:18:36,181 --> 00:18:37,182 how do you feed 701 00:18:37,182 --> 00:18:39,218 reskilling into a journey, 702 00:18:39,218 --> 00:18:40,486 not just an episode 703 00:18:40,486 --> 00:18:42,087 that happens because 704 00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:45,724 that person in that office 705 00:18:45,724 --> 00:18:47,826 has bought this incredible software, 706 00:18:47,826 --> 00:18:49,361 and now I have to spend two hours 707 00:18:49,361 --> 00:18:51,063 clicking through the program, 708 00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:52,030 but it’s because we are trying 709 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:52,731 to do something 710 00:18:52,731 --> 00:18:54,299 that is really important to the firm. 711 00:18:54,366 --> 00:18:54,733 Yeah. 712 00:18:55,434 --> 00:18:56,301 And in fact, 713 00:18:56,301 --> 00:18:58,370 point one in your article is that 714 00:18:59,204 --> 00:19:00,372 firms who are engaging 715 00:19:00,372 --> 00:19:01,073 in this reskilling 716 00:19:01,073 --> 00:19:01,840 need to see it 717 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,075 as a strategic imperative. 718 00:19:03,075 --> 00:19:03,609 It seems to me 719 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:04,409 that what we’re talking about 720 00:19:04,409 --> 00:19:06,411 is sort of a bottom up 721 00:19:06,945 --> 00:19:09,114 reason for doing this, 722 00:19:09,581 --> 00:19:10,616 and one of the other points 723 00:19:10,616 --> 00:19:11,316 this piece makes 724 00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:11,950 is that 725 00:19:11,950 --> 00:19:13,318 you cited a BCG report 726 00:19:13,318 --> 00:19:14,586 saying that companies 727 00:19:14,586 --> 00:19:16,655 now are investing or could be 728 00:19:16,655 --> 00:19:18,223 or should be investing 729 00:19:18,223 --> 00:19:20,526 1.5% of their total budgets, 730 00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:21,226 minimum. 731 00:19:21,493 --> 00:19:22,327 They already are. 732 00:19:22,327 --> 00:19:23,328 They already are. Yeah. 733 00:19:23,495 --> 00:19:24,763 And so then if you think of it 734 00:19:24,763 --> 00:19:25,864 as a strategic imperative, 735 00:19:25,864 --> 00:19:27,065 does that give you the reason 736 00:19:27,065 --> 00:19:28,800 to keep increasing that investment? 737 00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:30,769 That’s why it’s such an interesting 738 00:19:30,769 --> 00:19:32,171 topic to study. 739 00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:33,906 The resources are there. 740 00:19:33,906 --> 00:19:36,642 I think that companies are investing 741 00:19:36,642 --> 00:19:38,243 in training opportunities, 742 00:19:38,243 --> 00:19:39,311 and especially since 743 00:19:39,311 --> 00:19:41,313 AI has arrived, this push 744 00:19:41,313 --> 00:19:43,382 for upskilling and reskilling is there. 745 00:19:43,682 --> 00:19:44,850 Now, the other piece, 746 00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:46,518 however, is are you doing it well? 747 00:19:47,686 --> 00:19:49,054 And “Are you doing it well” 748 00:19:49,054 --> 00:19:50,822 is something that, 749 00:19:50,822 --> 00:19:53,759 I think every company should be asking. 750 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:55,093 I’ve seen this incredible 751 00:19:55,093 --> 00:19:56,828 training platforms. 752 00:19:56,828 --> 00:19:58,764 They look like Netflix, 753 00:19:58,764 --> 00:20:00,766 but they all start from the premise 754 00:20:00,766 --> 00:20:01,800 that people 755 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,435 are happy to learn on their own 756 00:20:03,435 --> 00:20:04,603 and that they’re motivated 757 00:20:04,603 --> 00:20:05,671 to learn on their own. 758 00:20:05,671 --> 00:20:06,505 That’s not true. 759 00:20:06,505 --> 00:20:07,873 We are adults, 760 00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:10,008 and adults are not 761 00:20:10,008 --> 00:20:11,410 necessarily interested 762 00:20:11,410 --> 00:20:13,078 in learning new things 763 00:20:13,078 --> 00:20:13,912 or admitting 764 00:20:13,912 --> 00:20:16,014 that they need to learn new things. 765 00:20:16,215 --> 00:20:16,915 And so I think that 766 00:20:16,915 --> 00:20:18,417 the opportunity here 767 00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:21,453 is to think about that amount of money, 768 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:24,223 that there’s incredible resources, 769 00:20:24,223 --> 00:20:26,225 spend them on things 770 00:20:26,225 --> 00:20:28,961 that are really going to the 771 00:20:28,961 --> 00:20:30,262 to the core of the issue, 772 00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:31,797 helping people 773 00:20:31,797 --> 00:20:33,999 learn and practice new skills. 774 00:20:34,132 --> 00:20:35,200 One way to do that 775 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,702 is also by structuring. 776 00:20:36,702 --> 00:20:37,769 We go back to the point 777 00:20:37,769 --> 00:20:39,171 of experimentation. 778 00:20:40,172 --> 00:20:41,139 Run these investments 779 00:20:41,139 --> 00:20:42,975 or implement these investments 780 00:20:42,975 --> 00:20:45,110 with a scientific mindset. 781 00:20:45,244 --> 00:20:47,079 Try to understand what works 782 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:47,913 and what doesn’t work. 783 00:20:47,913 --> 00:20:49,881 It’s not just enough to do a pilot. 784 00:20:49,881 --> 00:20:51,083 You want to have hypothesis. 785 00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:52,284 You want to have measurement 786 00:20:52,284 --> 00:20:53,151 and you want to learn. 787 00:20:54,152 --> 00:20:55,354 And also 788 00:20:55,354 --> 00:20:57,656 design a program that is thoughtful. 789 00:20:57,656 --> 00:20:58,724 A hundred percent. 790 00:20:58,724 --> 00:21:00,659 Design a program that is human. 791 00:21:01,159 --> 00:21:01,927 Right. 792 00:21:01,927 --> 00:21:02,794 I think 793 00:21:03,061 --> 00:21:03,695 Right. 794 00:21:03,762 --> 00:21:05,197 I am cognizant of the fact 795 00:21:05,197 --> 00:21:06,565 that we are essentially asking 796 00:21:06,565 --> 00:21:07,532 organizations in order, 797 00:21:07,532 --> 00:21:08,066 in the process 798 00:21:08,066 --> 00:21:09,401 of becoming a Frontier Firm, 799 00:21:09,401 --> 00:21:10,836 you will have to reinvent everything. 800 00:21:10,836 --> 00:21:12,037 You will have to rethink 801 00:21:12,037 --> 00:21:13,105 your business imperatives. 802 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:14,473 You will have to reskill 803 00:21:14,473 --> 00:21:15,607 and you will have to 804 00:21:15,607 --> 00:21:17,609 reinvent your processes, 805 00:21:17,609 --> 00:21:18,710 which is hard. 806 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:19,311 Yeah. 807 00:21:19,311 --> 00:21:21,546 And so I wonder how you think 808 00:21:21,546 --> 00:21:23,615 about organizations 809 00:21:23,615 --> 00:21:25,284 getting from pilot phase, 810 00:21:25,284 --> 00:21:26,585 from experimenting, 811 00:21:26,585 --> 00:21:27,753 to actually having 812 00:21:27,753 --> 00:21:29,421 sustainable process change 813 00:21:29,421 --> 00:21:30,822 that drives meaningful results? 814 00:21:30,822 --> 00:21:31,290 Yeah, 815 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:33,358 I think it starts from the recognition 816 00:21:33,358 --> 00:21:35,694 that it is much more 817 00:21:35,694 --> 00:21:36,795 than just 818 00:21:37,195 --> 00:21:38,997 buying a new technology. 819 00:21:39,231 --> 00:21:41,700 And so, and getting into 820 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:43,068 that mindset is not easy 821 00:21:43,068 --> 00:21:45,504 because it requires a big amount, 822 00:21:45,837 --> 00:21:48,140 a certain amount of humility 823 00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:48,940 to recognize 824 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:50,409 that there is an opportunity 825 00:21:50,409 --> 00:21:51,810 for a change. 826 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:53,679 A little bit of paranoia, too, 827 00:21:53,845 --> 00:21:55,180 because you’re changing 828 00:21:55,180 --> 00:21:56,448 because you realize that if you don’t, 829 00:21:56,448 --> 00:21:58,317 somebody else will do it for you. 830 00:21:58,884 --> 00:22:00,152 I think this is where 831 00:22:00,786 --> 00:22:02,154 it has to start with 832 00:22:02,154 --> 00:22:04,356 a very clear leadership mandate 833 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:07,192 and understanding of why 834 00:22:07,192 --> 00:22:08,360 we are doing it and 835 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:09,728 sort of direction. 836 00:22:11,096 --> 00:22:12,431 That’s where I would start. 837 00:22:12,431 --> 00:22:15,100 I think the second piece is also 838 00:22:16,068 --> 00:22:17,135 learning, right? 839 00:22:17,135 --> 00:22:18,403 Who do you learn from 840 00:22:18,403 --> 00:22:19,604 and how do you learn? 841 00:22:19,938 --> 00:22:21,406 We’ve talked a lot about 842 00:22:21,406 --> 00:22:24,142 the processes that a CEO 843 00:22:24,142 --> 00:22:25,510 or a company can 844 00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:27,279 set up to learn internally, 845 00:22:27,579 --> 00:22:28,380 but the reality is that 846 00:22:28,380 --> 00:22:29,481 there is a lot of learning 847 00:22:29,481 --> 00:22:30,982 that is happening everywhere. 848 00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:33,719 And so my advice would also be 849 00:22:33,719 --> 00:22:37,222 to really have a wide lens 850 00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:40,592 to see how organizations 851 00:22:40,592 --> 00:22:41,626 are adopting. 852 00:22:41,626 --> 00:22:42,961 What are they doing? 853 00:22:42,961 --> 00:22:44,863 And go to the 854 00:22:44,963 --> 00:22:46,398 go to where things happen. 855 00:22:46,398 --> 00:22:48,166 Don’t just rely on the reports 856 00:22:48,166 --> 00:22:49,468 because that’s 857 00:22:49,468 --> 00:22:50,502 a little bit of what happened 858 00:22:50,502 --> 00:22:52,404 during the Industrial Revolution, 859 00:22:52,404 --> 00:22:52,904 if you 860 00:22:52,904 --> 00:22:54,172 if you think about it, 861 00:22:54,172 --> 00:22:54,740 was this 862 00:22:54,740 --> 00:22:57,743 constant exchange of ideas between 863 00:22:58,043 --> 00:22:59,644 science and practice. 864 00:22:59,644 --> 00:23:00,412 And I think we are 865 00:23:00,412 --> 00:23:01,380 at that stage. 866 00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:01,947 Interesting. 867 00:23:01,947 --> 00:23:04,116 So don’t try to implement change 868 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:06,084 in a silo in your company. 869 00:23:06,084 --> 00:23:07,886 Never comparing notes 870 00:23:07,886 --> 00:23:09,121 with your peers, for example, 871 00:23:09,121 --> 00:23:09,755 is that what you’re saying? 872 00:23:09,755 --> 00:23:10,322 Yeah, exactly. 873 00:23:10,322 --> 00:23:11,490 So this is where 874 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:13,291 I would expect people 875 00:23:13,291 --> 00:23:15,160 to learn from their networks. 876 00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:16,495 Peer learning to be 877 00:23:16,495 --> 00:23:17,696 incredibly important. 878 00:23:20,065 --> 00:23:21,099 Trying things, 879 00:23:21,099 --> 00:23:22,167 understanding what works, 880 00:23:22,167 --> 00:23:23,935 but also what doesn’t work. 881 00:23:23,935 --> 00:23:25,537 Making sure that this is knowledge 882 00:23:25,537 --> 00:23:27,439 that gets actually highlighted 883 00:23:27,439 --> 00:23:28,874 and leveraged. 884 00:23:28,974 --> 00:23:30,475 I think sometimes employees, 885 00:23:30,475 --> 00:23:30,909 like you said, 886 00:23:30,909 --> 00:23:31,943 the middle management layer 887 00:23:31,943 --> 00:23:34,946 can be wary of experimentation 888 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,948 that then doesn’t 889 00:23:36,948 --> 00:23:38,483 turn into something meaningful 890 00:23:38,483 --> 00:23:39,684 or where you’re playing a lot, 891 00:23:39,684 --> 00:23:41,420 but you lose coherence, 892 00:23:41,553 --> 00:23:43,255 maybe, from a business perspective. 893 00:23:43,255 --> 00:23:46,057 And I just would love to know 894 00:23:46,057 --> 00:23:46,758 what you’re thinking about, 895 00:23:46,758 --> 00:23:47,793 how organizations 896 00:23:47,793 --> 00:23:50,162 should approach this implementation, 897 00:23:50,162 --> 00:23:51,696 this pilot process, 898 00:23:51,696 --> 00:23:52,697 or not, 899 00:23:52,697 --> 00:23:54,299 this bottom up groundswell. 900 00:23:54,299 --> 00:23:55,167 At some point 901 00:23:55,167 --> 00:23:56,001 there can be also 902 00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:57,402 too much experimentation. 903 00:23:57,402 --> 00:23:58,036 So I would think 904 00:23:58,036 --> 00:23:59,037 I would say 905 00:23:59,037 --> 00:24:02,107 within one important 906 00:24:02,808 --> 00:24:05,544 axis of your strategy or maybe 2 or 3 907 00:24:05,544 --> 00:24:07,045 think about experimenting 908 00:24:07,045 --> 00:24:08,346 within these boundaries. 909 00:24:08,346 --> 00:24:10,015 What I call the strategic boundaries. 910 00:24:10,015 --> 00:24:11,349 I think it starts there. 911 00:24:12,484 --> 00:24:13,084 The second 912 00:24:13,084 --> 00:24:14,853 piece is who is conducting 913 00:24:14,853 --> 00:24:16,188 the experimentation 914 00:24:16,188 --> 00:24:16,721 and making sure 915 00:24:16,721 --> 00:24:17,722 that you have people 916 00:24:17,722 --> 00:24:19,324 who are not just familiar 917 00:24:19,324 --> 00:24:20,559 with the technology, 918 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:22,060 but also have an understanding 919 00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:23,028 of how the technology 920 00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:24,296 would get used 921 00:24:24,296 --> 00:24:25,363 in the organization 922 00:24:25,363 --> 00:24:27,365 or by by the consumer. 923 00:24:27,432 --> 00:24:28,800 I think this is crucial 924 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,169 because the technology cycle 925 00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:32,871 is very fast, right? 926 00:24:33,038 --> 00:24:34,406 And people who are close to 927 00:24:34,406 --> 00:24:36,341 the technology are so excited, 928 00:24:36,341 --> 00:24:37,742 and they tend not to see 929 00:24:37,742 --> 00:24:38,743 all the frictions 930 00:24:38,743 --> 00:24:40,545 that might prevent 931 00:24:40,545 --> 00:24:42,013 that beautiful invention 932 00:24:42,013 --> 00:24:44,149 from actually being used by people. 933 00:24:44,382 --> 00:24:47,085 So, getting at that level of interaction 934 00:24:47,085 --> 00:24:49,888 between technology and humans, 935 00:24:49,888 --> 00:24:50,989 but also the ability 936 00:24:50,989 --> 00:24:52,991 to quickly iterate and understand 937 00:24:52,991 --> 00:24:55,160 what’s working and what’s not working, 938 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,728 that’s a capability. 939 00:24:56,728 --> 00:24:57,829 Once you have that, 940 00:24:57,829 --> 00:24:59,998 then you can think of 941 00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:01,199 embedding the results 942 00:25:01,199 --> 00:25:02,801 of the experiments in the firm. 943 00:25:03,101 --> 00:25:04,469 I have seen companies 944 00:25:04,469 --> 00:25:06,304 where the experiments were done 945 00:25:06,304 --> 00:25:07,239 so brilliantly, 946 00:25:07,239 --> 00:25:08,340 but so divided 947 00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:09,908 from the rest of the organization 948 00:25:09,908 --> 00:25:11,776 that when it came to the adoption 949 00:25:11,776 --> 00:25:12,644 and scaling phase, 950 00:25:12,644 --> 00:25:13,945 there was almost a dejection, 951 00:25:13,945 --> 00:25:15,380 as if it was a, 952 00:25:15,714 --> 00:25:16,748 a foreign object 953 00:25:16,748 --> 00:25:18,483 that you were trying to to put in. 954 00:25:18,483 --> 00:25:20,051 So you have to build 955 00:25:20,051 --> 00:25:21,953 that third stage of adoption 956 00:25:21,953 --> 00:25:23,588 already in the early stages. 957 00:25:23,588 --> 00:25:25,156 You want to make sure that that 958 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:26,358 that it’s not perceived 959 00:25:26,358 --> 00:25:27,526 as something completely different 960 00:25:27,526 --> 00:25:28,693 from what we do. 961 00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:29,895 I have spoken with other people 962 00:25:29,895 --> 00:25:31,830 on the show who have talked about that. 963 00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:32,597 The danger 964 00:25:32,597 --> 00:25:35,100 of really siloing things in pilots. 965 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:35,500 Yeah. 966 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:37,802 You’re not doing that kind of grafting 967 00:25:37,802 --> 00:25:38,970 process that you’re talking about. 968 00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:40,272 It’s like game theory. 969 00:25:40,272 --> 00:25:40,605 Yeah. 970 00:25:40,605 --> 00:25:41,940 You know, it’s really like game theory. 971 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:43,174 You know, if you put yourself 972 00:25:43,174 --> 00:25:44,543 at the end of the process. 973 00:25:44,543 --> 00:25:46,845 That’s why I insist on declarative. 974 00:25:47,345 --> 00:25:49,047 Imagine that you want to have 975 00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:50,515 massive adoption, 976 00:25:50,515 --> 00:25:51,483 and I’m assuming 977 00:25:51,483 --> 00:25:52,117 you’re not going 978 00:25:52,117 --> 00:25:55,287 to want the whole organization to turn. 979 00:25:56,087 --> 00:25:58,456 You will want your people to adopt 980 00:25:58,456 --> 00:26:00,625 and embrace this, right? 981 00:26:00,625 --> 00:26:03,628 So what would you need to have in place 982 00:26:03,695 --> 00:26:05,564 for that stage to go well? 983 00:26:05,931 --> 00:26:07,365 What type of input do you, 984 00:26:07,365 --> 00:26:08,333 do they need to have? 985 00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:09,267 What type of learning? 986 00:26:09,267 --> 00:26:10,535 What type of checkpoints do 987 00:26:10,535 --> 00:26:12,337 you need to have to get there? 988 00:26:12,337 --> 00:26:13,872 You seem to also be describing 989 00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:14,306 the process 990 00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:15,840 of sort of reverse engineering 991 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,442 your metrics, your measurement. 992 00:26:17,442 --> 00:26:18,443 Yeah, yeah, yeah, 993 00:26:18,443 --> 00:26:19,844 I think that’s that’s 994 00:26:19,844 --> 00:26:21,479 part of the discovery phase. 995 00:26:21,479 --> 00:26:23,915 But I think it’s reverse engineering, 996 00:26:23,915 --> 00:26:25,283 not just the technology, 997 00:26:25,283 --> 00:26:28,320 but how people and organization evolve. 998 00:26:29,354 --> 00:26:30,088 Let’s do 999 00:26:30,088 --> 00:26:31,222 a little bit of 1000 00:26:31,222 --> 00:26:33,158 tactics, a little bit of actionable 1001 00:26:33,158 --> 00:26:33,825 Go ahead. 1002 00:26:33,825 --> 00:26:34,492 advice here 1003 00:26:34,826 --> 00:26:36,161 I am a CEO. 1004 00:26:36,161 --> 00:26:37,729 I am absolutely convinced. 1005 00:26:37,729 --> 00:26:38,563 I’m sold. 1006 00:26:38,563 --> 00:26:39,998 I need to become a Frontier Firm. 1007 00:26:39,998 --> 00:26:40,699 I understand, 1008 00:26:40,699 --> 00:26:41,466 The survival 1009 00:26:41,466 --> 00:26:43,335 of the organization rests on this. 1010 00:26:44,302 --> 00:26:45,737 What are the three steps 1011 00:26:45,737 --> 00:26:46,538 that you would recommend 1012 00:26:46,538 --> 00:26:48,406 for me to get started? 1013 00:26:48,406 --> 00:26:48,873 Okay. 1014 00:26:48,873 --> 00:26:51,910 So I would say strategy session 1015 00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:55,113 first thing, not months. 1016 00:26:55,113 --> 00:26:56,047 Like, you know. 1017 00:26:56,047 --> 00:26:56,681 Right. 1018 00:26:57,115 --> 00:26:59,150 Three things we want to do. 1019 00:26:59,150 --> 00:27:00,285 Okay. 1020 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:02,654 Set your experimentation team. 1021 00:27:02,654 --> 00:27:03,655 Choose these people 1022 00:27:03,655 --> 00:27:05,790 very, very well so that 1023 00:27:06,224 --> 00:27:07,626 we have the technical, 1024 00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:08,593 the human, 1025 00:27:08,593 --> 00:27:10,362 the potential resistance 1026 00:27:10,362 --> 00:27:12,430 and then communication. 1027 00:27:12,797 --> 00:27:14,633 Think about communicating 1028 00:27:14,633 --> 00:27:15,900 what you’re doing, 1029 00:27:16,101 --> 00:27:17,402 what you are trying to learn, 1030 00:27:17,402 --> 00:27:19,304 what this means for the organization 1031 00:27:20,171 --> 00:27:21,039 very well. 1032 00:27:22,073 --> 00:27:23,274 Is that technical enough? 1033 00:27:23,375 --> 00:27:25,343 That is so specific, it’s amazing! 1034 00:27:25,677 --> 00:27:26,645 for an academic? 1035 00:27:26,945 --> 00:27:27,679 Just pause it, 1036 00:27:27,679 --> 00:27:28,179 back it up, 1037 00:27:28,179 --> 00:27:28,913 write it down. 1038 00:27:29,948 --> 00:27:31,182 It’s just a very generic, 1039 00:27:31,182 --> 00:27:32,550 because I think at the end of the day, 1040 00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:33,918 you are going to have to tailor 1041 00:27:33,918 --> 00:27:35,553 all of these things into, 1042 00:27:35,553 --> 00:27:36,521 into your reality. 1043 00:27:36,521 --> 00:27:37,322 But that’s its own 1044 00:27:37,322 --> 00:27:38,223 important takeaway, right? 1045 00:27:38,223 --> 00:27:39,391 Don’t try to do it 1046 00:27:39,391 --> 00:27:40,825 the way that some other company did it. 1047 00:27:40,825 --> 00:27:42,293 Use these steps to determine 1048 00:27:42,293 --> 00:27:44,095 who you are as a company 1049 00:27:44,095 --> 00:27:46,064 and what will make you succeed or fail. 1050 00:27:46,064 --> 00:27:47,966 You should know, I teach strategy. 1051 00:27:48,066 --> 00:27:48,667 So... 1052 00:27:49,801 --> 00:27:51,770 Not only do I know, but I can tell. 1053 00:27:51,770 --> 00:27:53,004 Okay, good. 1054 00:27:53,238 --> 00:27:54,372 Okay, so now I’m gonna ask you 1055 00:27:54,372 --> 00:27:55,607 for one more piece of strategy. 1056 00:27:55,607 --> 00:27:56,608 I’m an employee. 1057 00:27:56,608 --> 00:27:57,208 Oh, yeah. 1058 00:27:57,208 --> 00:27:58,109 And I want to 1059 00:27:58,109 --> 00:27:59,611 make an impact at a Frontier Firm. 1060 00:27:59,611 --> 00:28:01,079 I also am all in. 1061 00:28:01,479 --> 00:28:02,514 What should I do? 1062 00:28:02,981 --> 00:28:04,215 I’m assuming you will need 1063 00:28:04,215 --> 00:28:05,650 a little bit of technical 1064 00:28:05,650 --> 00:28:06,551 knowledge there, 1065 00:28:06,551 --> 00:28:08,853 because you need that 1066 00:28:08,853 --> 00:28:09,854 in order to create. 1067 00:28:10,055 --> 00:28:11,690 The first thing is recognize 1068 00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:13,958 that you are an inventor at that point. 1069 00:28:14,292 --> 00:28:15,427 If that’s what you want to do, 1070 00:28:15,427 --> 00:28:16,194 you are an inventor. 1071 00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:17,562 So what does an inventor need? 1072 00:28:17,562 --> 00:28:20,198 I think you need some technical skills. 1073 00:28:20,565 --> 00:28:22,233 I think you need the same amount 1074 00:28:22,233 --> 00:28:24,069 of clarity to understand how 1075 00:28:24,069 --> 00:28:25,403 what you’re doing fits 1076 00:28:25,403 --> 00:28:27,906 with what the organization is doing, 1077 00:28:27,906 --> 00:28:28,773 and if not, 1078 00:28:29,074 --> 00:28:30,275 these are good questions 1079 00:28:30,275 --> 00:28:32,711 to ask yourself, right? 1080 00:28:32,711 --> 00:28:34,079 Is this a good fit? 1081 00:28:34,212 --> 00:28:35,680 And then I think you want to build 1082 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:36,748 a movement. 1083 00:28:37,115 --> 00:28:38,950 You want to be part of a coalition 1084 00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:40,685 because it’s extremely hard right now 1085 00:28:40,685 --> 00:28:43,154 in places where you have enthusiasts, 1086 00:28:43,154 --> 00:28:44,122 and there are many companies 1087 00:28:44,122 --> 00:28:44,956 where there are many 1088 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:47,158 enthusiastic people about AI, 1089 00:28:47,425 --> 00:28:48,927 everybody’s doing their own thing. 1090 00:28:50,128 --> 00:28:53,131 And so there is revelation of ideas 1091 00:28:53,331 --> 00:28:54,733 and my 1092 00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:55,633 my feeling is that 1093 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,335 these ideas never get 1094 00:28:57,836 --> 00:29:00,605 compared or aggregated 1095 00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:01,005 in a way 1096 00:29:01,005 --> 00:29:01,873 that we can 1097 00:29:01,873 --> 00:29:03,141 really learn from each other. 1098 00:29:03,141 --> 00:29:05,744 So I think you are an innovator. 1099 00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:07,712 You have to have the technical chops. 1100 00:29:07,712 --> 00:29:10,115 You have to have a community 1101 00:29:10,115 --> 00:29:12,751 where you can continue learning and 1102 00:29:12,751 --> 00:29:13,885 and potentially 1103 00:29:13,885 --> 00:29:15,653 your learnings will be useful 1104 00:29:15,653 --> 00:29:17,288 to the organization. 1105 00:29:17,922 --> 00:29:19,224 And then finally, 1106 00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:20,825 based on what you have seen before, 1107 00:29:20,825 --> 00:29:21,860 what you’re seeing now, 1108 00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:24,028 what you’re examining today, 1109 00:29:24,028 --> 00:29:25,697 what do you think work 1110 00:29:25,697 --> 00:29:27,332 starts to look like in 3 to 5 years? 1111 00:29:27,332 --> 00:29:28,733 How significant are these changes? 1112 00:29:29,501 --> 00:29:30,401 I think it’s very hard 1113 00:29:30,401 --> 00:29:31,569 to answer the question, 1114 00:29:31,569 --> 00:29:33,304 because one thing 1115 00:29:33,304 --> 00:29:34,539 I’m certain about is 1116 00:29:34,539 --> 00:29:36,107 that we are going to see massive 1117 00:29:36,107 --> 00:29:37,776 divergence across firms. 1118 00:29:38,276 --> 00:29:40,445 In the same occupation at firm X 1119 00:29:40,445 --> 00:29:41,412 will be very different 1120 00:29:41,412 --> 00:29:44,082 from the same occupation at firm Y. 1121 00:29:44,082 --> 00:29:47,051 And this is, if you like, consequence 1122 00:29:47,285 --> 00:29:48,586 of these firms 1123 00:29:48,586 --> 00:29:50,755 specific investments being made 1124 00:29:50,755 --> 00:29:53,391 and people learning, tasks changing, 1125 00:29:53,391 --> 00:29:54,225 and I’m expecting 1126 00:29:54,225 --> 00:29:55,326 that there will be a lot of, 1127 00:29:55,326 --> 00:29:56,861 at least in the very 1128 00:29:56,861 --> 00:29:58,763 in the short, medium run, 1129 00:29:58,763 --> 00:30:01,766 there might be divergence in how, 1130 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,435 how jobs are done across firms. 1131 00:30:04,602 --> 00:30:06,404 That is fascinating. 1132 00:30:06,404 --> 00:30:07,238 I don’t want to open 1133 00:30:07,238 --> 00:30:08,940 an entire new box of research, 1134 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:10,208 but what does that start to mean 1135 00:30:10,208 --> 00:30:12,343 for employees who reskill. 1136 00:30:12,343 --> 00:30:13,044 At one firm? 1137 00:30:13,044 --> 00:30:14,979 I think that the match with the company 1138 00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:15,780 is essential. 1139 00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:16,347 Yeah. 1140 00:30:16,447 --> 00:30:19,384 because this means potentially 1141 00:30:19,384 --> 00:30:21,853 that you come in an organization 1142 00:30:21,853 --> 00:30:23,321 and three years from now, 1143 00:30:23,321 --> 00:30:24,722 your job will be different. 1144 00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:27,559 This is not for everyone. 1145 00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:28,026 That’s why 1146 00:30:28,026 --> 00:30:30,428 the match between who you are 1147 00:30:30,428 --> 00:30:33,331 and what your aspirations are, 1148 00:30:33,331 --> 00:30:36,501 and where you work is fundamental 1149 00:30:36,501 --> 00:30:37,535 at this point, 1150 00:30:37,535 --> 00:30:38,970 because if you are part of a firm, 1151 00:30:38,970 --> 00:30:39,871 you will, 1152 00:30:39,871 --> 00:30:42,006 that is changing constantly 1153 00:30:42,006 --> 00:30:43,842 or that is about to embark 1154 00:30:43,842 --> 00:30:45,443 in this path, 1155 00:30:45,643 --> 00:30:47,879 your job might look very differently. 1156 00:30:48,313 --> 00:30:49,514 That seems very empowering 1157 00:30:49,514 --> 00:30:51,216 in a way for, you know, we talk a lot, 1158 00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:53,084 we obviously speak to business leaders 1159 00:30:53,084 --> 00:30:54,652 on this show and decision makers, 1160 00:30:54,652 --> 00:30:57,655 but it is that’s an interesting way 1161 00:30:57,655 --> 00:30:58,423 to think about it 1162 00:30:58,423 --> 00:30:59,490 from the employee level, 1163 00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:01,192 but also the hiring level. 1164 00:31:01,492 --> 00:31:02,927 Yeah, I mean, 1165 00:31:03,027 --> 00:31:04,028 at the hiring level, 1166 00:31:04,028 --> 00:31:06,064 this means that you are not hiring 1167 00:31:06,064 --> 00:31:06,931 for the skills 1168 00:31:06,931 --> 00:31:07,999 that people have today, 1169 00:31:07,999 --> 00:31:09,000 but you’re hiring people 1170 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,469 for their ability to learn new skills, 1171 00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:12,704 which is something that I think 1172 00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:14,739 businesspeople always say they want 1173 00:31:14,739 --> 00:31:16,241 and they appreciate, but often 1174 00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:17,876 they conflate it with experience. 1175 00:31:18,877 --> 00:31:19,577 And this is not 1176 00:31:19,577 --> 00:31:21,379 necessarily the same thing. 1177 00:31:21,713 --> 00:31:22,981 I’m going to stop us there 1178 00:31:22,981 --> 00:31:24,282 because I have to, 1179 00:31:24,282 --> 00:31:26,217 but thank you again to Raffaella Sadun, 1180 00:31:26,217 --> 00:31:27,485 the Charles E. Wilson 1181 00:31:27,485 --> 00:31:29,520 Professor of Business Administration 1182 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,388 at Harvard Business School. 1183 00:31:30,388 --> 00:31:31,522 I so appreciate the time. 1184 00:31:31,522 --> 00:31:32,857 Thank you very much. 1185 00:31:33,024 --> 00:31:34,125 Thank you so much for listening 1186 00:31:34,125 --> 00:31:34,692 to WorkLab 1187 00:31:34,692 --> 00:31:35,393 and joining us 1188 00:31:35,393 --> 00:31:36,661 at the Harvard campus today. 1189 00:31:36,661 --> 00:31:37,528 We’re so grateful to them 1190 00:31:37,528 --> 00:31:38,496 for having us. 1191 00:31:38,496 --> 00:31:40,098 You can learn more about the podcast 1192 00:31:40,098 --> 00:31:42,233 and the Frontier Firm AI Initiative 1193 00:31:42,233 --> 00:31:43,968 between Microsoft and Harvard 1194 00:31:43,968 --> 00:31:46,437 at Microsoft dot com slash WorkLab. 1195 00:31:46,437 --> 00:31:48,172 If you have a question or a comment 1196 00:31:48,172 --> 00:31:48,640 about this 1197 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,841 or any episode, 1198 00:31:49,841 --> 00:31:50,942 please email us 1199 00:31:50,942 --> 00:31:52,810 WorkLab at microsoft dot com 1200 00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:53,344 and check out 1201 00:31:53,344 --> 00:31:55,113 Microsoft’s work trend indexes 1202 00:31:55,113 --> 00:31:57,282 and the WorkLab digital publication, 1203 00:31:57,282 --> 00:31:58,783 where you’ll find all of our episodes, 1204 00:31:58,783 --> 00:32:00,418 along with thoughtful stories 1205 00:32:00,418 --> 00:32:01,319 that explore 1206 00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:03,121 how business leaders are thriving in 1207 00:32:03,121 --> 00:32:04,722 today’s AI era. 1208 00:32:04,722 --> 00:32:06,357 You’ll find all of that once again 1209 00:32:06,357 --> 00:32:08,259 at Microsoft dot com slash WorkLab. 1210 00:32:09,193 --> 00:32:10,662 And as for this podcast, 1211 00:32:10,662 --> 00:32:11,296 of course 1212 00:32:11,296 --> 00:32:12,931 we want you to rate, us reviews, 1213 00:32:12,931 --> 00:32:14,299 and follow us wherever you listen. 1214 00:32:14,299 --> 00:32:15,199 It helps us out a lot. 1215 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:16,901 The Work Lab podcast 1216 00:32:16,901 --> 00:32:18,036 is a place for experts 1217 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:20,138 to share their insights and opinions. 1218 00:32:20,138 --> 00:32:22,073 As students of the future of work, 1219 00:32:22,073 --> 00:32:22,974 Microsoft values 1220 00:32:22,974 --> 00:32:25,076 input from a diverse set of voices. 1221 00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:26,311 That said, the opinions 1222 00:32:26,311 --> 00:32:26,945 and findings of 1223 00:32:26,945 --> 00:32:28,246 our guests are their own 1224 00:32:28,246 --> 00:32:29,013 and they may not 1225 00:32:29,013 --> 00:32:30,515 necessarily reflect Microsoft’s 1226 00:32:30,515 --> 00:32:32,784 own research or positions. 1227 00:32:32,784 --> 00:32:34,252 WorkLab is produced by Microsoft 1228 00:32:34,252 --> 00:32:35,286 with Trifilm, 1229 00:32:35,286 --> 00:32:36,054 Sharon Callender 1230 00:32:36,054 --> 00:32:37,088 and Matthew Duncan produce 1231 00:32:37,088 --> 00:32:38,756 the podcast with editorial support 1232 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:40,391 from John Eilenberg. 1233 00:32:40,391 --> 00:32:42,193 Jessica Volker is the WorkLab editor, 1234 00:32:42,193 --> 00:32:43,461 and I’m your host, Molly Wood.