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A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a mom bags packed car, running her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.

Panic.

Amy is dead, sir By Amy's Dead?

Eight Confusion World.

About five minutes they sit N's a suicide.

One hundred percent.

This is immersing.

What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

The Truth About Amy?

Episode sixteen.

I'm Liam Bartlington and I'm Alison Sandy.

So before we get started, I just wanted to provide listeners with the latest on David Simmons.

Since we last spoke Liam, Yet another warrant was issued for his arrest after he failed to turn up to Armadale court, this time on driving offenses.

The following day, wa police picked him up and brought him to the courthouse.

So it's no longer a case of him turning up a few hours later.

Police are now giving him a lift, which I guess is better than nothing.

When he gets there, he's again granted bail and scheduled to reappear three weeks later.

Sound familiar, limb.

Wel, I'm sorry, but it's laughable, isn't it.

It's absolutely laughable.

As you say, he's got the best uber in town, right, the police are taking him straight there, not charging him a cent.

He's obviously got an account, but it's for free.

I mean, when is the justice system going to catch up with David Simmons?

How many times do you breach bail?

See?

Look, I'm a bit old fashioned.

I always thought that breaching bail is a really really serious charge, that's a really serious thing to do.

But clearly I'm wrong because they just sort of give him chances like lollies to a little kid.

And that's how they're treating him, and that's how they're treating the breaching of the bail.

I mean once, twice, three or four times.

Now.

The other thing, when you say driving offenses, let's pause for a minute because that sounds fairly innocuous.

But it's worth mentioning here that these driving offenses comprise reckless driving using an unlicensed vehicle on the road, no authority to drive that means you haven't got a license out, and driving with a prescribed illicit drug in either oral fluid or your blood.

I mean, that's a nice grab bag, isn't it.

And these aren't isolated incidents.

He's been a numerous traffic accidents, one of which was mentioned in court the other week, a motorcycle accident where, of course he lost his spleen.

We spoke about that at length in the first season.

Then of course the one that nearly killed Amy.

Also remembering that car accidents are the nation's biggest killer.

So regardless of what level of threat to society, the WA police or the court system deem David Simmons to be or make their mind up that he is or he isn't.

He is, at the very least safe to say, a serial dangerous driver who can con tinuously flouts the law that we know to be a fact.

Now, bearing that in mind, I just want to put it to the magistrate and the lawyers, the police and the police prosecutors who collectively enable him to continue just to walk free and do seemingly whatever he likes.

Of course, remember remember what they said in court his family would keep him out of trouble and he would apparently get the help that he quote so desperately needs.

Well, if in the future, if there is a fatal car crash involving David Simmons, and when I say fatal, not fatal for David, but fatal for the poor blighters who are in the other car, whoever they may be, however many they may be, whoever gets caught in the crossfire.

Let's face it, how many times can you run the gauntlet on this?

Then I say to the magistrate and his lawyers and the police and the prosecutors, that is on you.

It's as simple as that, precisely, Lamb.

Yeah, and look, I don't think I'm being too harsh in saying that.

I mean, how many chances does a person like that get out?

It's just, you know, it's a cliche these days, but it is a truism.

They will have blood on their hands.

It's as simple as that.

And it's not difficult.

It's not difficult to foresee, you know, we're not trying to do a nostrodamis.

And anybody with half a brain can work out that that is a very, very possible scenario given what's happened in the past and his level of behavior and the continuous level of behavior.

Anyway, let's get back to the death of Amy Wensley.

Now.

When we've started this investigation, we discussed how the uniformed officers and the detectives seemed very much to be pitted against each other in their opinions of what really happened to Amy.

Yes, Liam, simply put.

The Rockingham detectives, led by Detective Sergeant Tony Kirkman, believed Amy killed herself, and the uniform detectives, led by Senior Constable Ian Roberts did not.

Yeah, you couldn't get more polarizing, could you.

I mean, it's one side of the fence the detectives, the other side of the fence of the uniformed officers.

And as we delved deeper, we discovered there were also other detectives and authorities behind the scenes who didn't just fall in behind their particular colleagues.

And it was their courage, I think, to probe further that helped get Amy's case to where it is today.

This episode details how that came about.

By way of background, in Western Australia, the rule is that all deaths are reported to the coroner or the coroner's clerk.

If it's a reportable death as defined by the Coroner's Act nineteen ninety six, then the coroner must be notified.

A reportable death, as defined by the Coroner's Act is unexpected, unnatural, or violent, or to have resulted directly or indirectly from some sort of injury.

Now, this generally includes a review of the person's medical history and circumstances of death, a post mortem examination, and medical testing, alongside the witness statements.

Sometimes it also includes reports from forensic experts, engineering and crime scene analysis.

The coroner assigned to this case was Deputy State Coroner Evil and Vicker.

Ms.

Vicker, who would be the first of several who would ultimately take carriage of Amy's case, made it clear from the start that she wasn't satisfied by wa police's conclusion that Amy took her own life.

But before we get into all that, let's revisit the crime scene through the eyes of one of the uniform officers.

First on scene, I entered the property, had a quick look.

I saw what looked to be a female in black top, black jeans, black beats, slumped behind the door.

It was a bit tight to enter as her left foot was against the door.

This is a statement made by Senior Constable Ian Roberts, dated July fourth, twenty fourteen.

He made several over the course of a decade, one of which you've heard already, but this one you haven't.

Unlike the statements from Joshua Brydon, Gareth Price, David Simmons, and his father Robert, Senior Constable Roberts is consistent in his recollection.

The body had a blue towel over the head, covering the wounds.

At this time the towel was left in place and untouched.

I could see a large amount of blood spatter, bone fragments, and brain matter on the rear wall to the side of the head, and the large amount of blood had pooled under the bottom of the body as it sat there.

I could see that her right hand was under her bottom and her left resting in her lap.

There was a queen sized bed in the center of the room, with wooden bedside cabinets either side.

On the bedside cabinet to the left were two fourteen gaged shotgun cartridges.

One was live and the other spent.

I also saw there was a side by side double barrel shotgun lying by the side of the bed and it was pointing barrel towards the deceased.

It was about two meters away from the deceased.

I could see that it had blood spatterings around the front of both barrels.

Next to this bedside cabinet there was a pink rifle leaned up against the wall in the corner.

In the far corner of the room, next to the other bedside cabinet was another shotgun leaning against the wall.

In the wardrobe, another rifle was leaning against the inner wall, and several boxes of ammunition, both shotgun and twenty two could be seen on the upper shelf.

It was about seventeen fifty five hours that the paramedics arrived and I asked that everything be untouched as much as possible, and simply ascertained that the body was actually deceased so that the relevant paperwork could be completed.

The paramedics were in the scene for no more than a few seconds.

They signed and completed the life extinct form and left the scene.

At eighteen o five a PFA was de declared and a running sheet commenced At nineteen o five hours, Weedman and Kirkman and Povar from Rockingham Detectives attended the scene.

We explained where the body lay and what we had so far done.

They viewed the photographs that I had taken, and Kirkman and Povar took our camera and went into the property to assess the scene for themselves.

They returned about fifteen minutes later.

We all stood in the large shed, as it was raining quite heavily by this time, and we discussed the incident.

Sergeant Kirkman explained that he and his partner had come to the conclusion that it was a non suspicious suicide, stating that they thought the deceased had pulled the trigger herself using her left hand, by pressing the butt of the gun against the bed and leaning over with her left arm.

I then tried to tell Sergeant Kirkman that I did not agree with him, and stated that it would be almost, if not impossible, for a slight girl of her size to be able to reach over her body and pull the trigger with her left hand, and demonstrated that even my arm was not longer enough to reach the trigger.

I also mentioned that her natural trigger finger would have been her right hand, which was situated under the bottom so could not have been used.

Sergeant Kirkman dismissed these facts, and his partner Povar agreed with him.

First Constable Blandford again tried to explain that for a person to shoot themselves, they would have to be seated with the butt of the weapon against the ground and the barrel in their face.

Sergeant Kirkman replied that she was shot from the side of the head.

First Constable Blamford stated that there is no female capable of holding the shotgun to the side of their own head and pulling the trigger, certainly not with their right hand trapped under their buttocks.

Sergeant Kirkman answered by saying she must have lent sidewards into the barrel.

I then stated that if the sergeant was happy to call it a suicide, and there were not suspicious circumstances, then we would continue with this as a sudden death and complete the paperwork accordingly.

Sergeant Kirkman stated that he and his colleagues would first read the statements that were taken to see if they confirmed the conclusions they had determined.

I asked that they call us once that decision had been made.

A short time later, Constable Dixon received a call from Rockingham detectives that stated this incident was non suspicious.

Now, according to the Major Crime Division decision Log, on the twenty seventh of June, a decision was made to arrest David Simmons and Gareth Price because of the following points.

Simmons history of violence, evidence of an argument between person of interest Simmons and Amy prior to her death, the inconsistency of the accounts they had provided thus far.

However, they were released the following day because and old quote, forensic examination doesn't provide evidence of criminality.

Their accounts were more detailed and clarified earlier.

And lastly, the police at that stage were unable to establish that an offense had been committed.

And that's a bit of a save all, isn't it now.

That was signed by Detective Senior Sergeant Gregory MacDonald of the Major Crime Division, who was the officer in charge of Operation Juhnde.

We'll come back to him later this episode, but first a statement.

Here's what Serpentine Roadhouse owner Robert Ibbotson, who ironically is also a former police officer, here's what he recalled.

I am sixty eight years old and the owner of the Serpentine Falls Roadhouse, located on the corner of Fools Road in Southwestern Highway in Serpentine.

On Thursday, the twenty sixth of June, I was at work.

I was working alone.

I was standing behind the counter when I saw a white sedan pulled up close to Bowser five and two males came inside in a hurry.

I later checked the cc TV footage and saw they arrived at five twenty two pm.

The clock on the CCTV footage is about two minutes fast.

That would make it five twenty four pm, but it's worth noting that according to the Major Crime Report, the CCTV clock was five minutes fast.

I don't recall seeing either of them before.

They both looked to be in their late twenties or early thirties and Caucasians.

Male number one was wearing a black hooter jump up with a green mother logo with a bright green capital M.

I can't recall what else he was wearing.

He was the only one who spoke to me.

He said, I got to use the phone.

I got to call Triple zero.

I was about to point to the public phone outside, but I let him use the roadhouse landline because he spoke the submergency in the voice.

The phone number for the roadhouse is nine to five to two.

It is the only line I have and is the cordless phone.

I stood two to three meters away from him when he called triple zero, and I heard him say wanted an ambulance and gave an address of lot number on the Southwestern Highway Serpentine.

But I can't recall the lot number.

He said.

There was a name on the gate, but I can't recall the name.

He said someone shot themselves in the head.

He gave the mobile number and said it didn't work because he got wet.

The entire time, he was calm, just a little bit edgy and nervous, but he wasn't crying.

He asked if he could make another call, and I said he could help himself.

He took the cordless phone just outside the door and made another call.

I could not hear him as the door was closed, but the conversation was a minute or two long, at the longest.

The whole time, the second male stayed close behind him and said words to the effect you're right mate, you're right, mate.

The second male wore a black beanie and a white logo of some sort on the front, and a black horter jumper with white logo on the front too.

I can't describe the logo as any further than that they clearly visible on the CCTV and they are very distinct.

He brought the cordless phone back inside to me, handed it to me, and walked out without another word.

The second mile, wearing the black beanie, didn't say anything either.

They got in the car and left.

The first mile without the beanie got in the driver's seat and drove south on the Southwestern Highway.

I did not notice anyone else in the car, but I did have a good view and it was just starting to get dark outside.

There was one other male customer in the store at the time, and he heard the first mile without the beanie say someone had shot themselves in the head.

I don't know his name, but he is a regular if the police need to follow up with him too.

On Friday, the twenty seventh of June twenty fourteen, I downloaded a copy of the CCTV footage of the two miles coming into the store around five point twenty two on the disc.

I provided the disc a detective Senior Constable Danderly at the same time, I provided the statement on the Saturday of the twenty eighth of June twenty fourteen.

So we know from this that the clothes they were wearing at the roadhouse were the same clothes police confiscated shortly after.

You'll recall that these clothes didn't have any blood or any gun residue on them whatsoever, despite Simmons admitting to firing his gun not long before Amy died.

Remember he said he was firing his gun outside at some parrots or whatever.

The story was, oh fish, it was.

Yeah, there was a couple of different conflicting stories depending on who you believed.

And also Gareth Price, in his own words, gave evidence that he patted down Amy's dead body looking for her phone.

Can you imagine patting down anybody in that position that had been on the receiving end of that sort of gunshot wound?

And still, because let's go back to the evidence, the police found, their clothes had no blood residue, no gun residue, not one bit, not one spot, not one spot.

To believe, isn't it?

Yeah?

Or woodchips from chopping wood all afternoon, or.

Any sort of fiber from all that wood shopping.

That is amazing.

Look, it doesn't make any sense.

The evidence is contrary to what they've been saying.

They obviously change their clothes.

There is no other reason that that would be the case.

They would have blood, they would have woodchips, they would have gun residue, and even if they talk about gun residue being you know, not reliable, they would at least have Gareth having padded down a body.

There's no way you could do that without having some transfer of blood.

And there's no way that David Simmons wouldn't have wood chips on his body from having chopped wood all that afternoon.

So if we were to believe, let me just give you a scenario.

So let's assume that the clothes they had on at the roadhouse, which were the ones police then confiscated, finding no residue anywhere.

Let's just say if they were fresh clothes, they would have had to find the time before they went to the roadhouse to phone for the ambulance to both change their.

Clothes, yep, or they had thirteen minutes.

Thirteen minutes well at.

Least that we know of.

That's their official time frame that.

Had Okay, I mean, do you think police have fully investigated that aspect?

Oh?

No way, Amy doesn't look like it doesn't.

No, no, And that's just been brushed over, right, you know it hasn't.

There's been no No one's really talked about it, No one's pushed them about it.

At the inquest, it just wasn't.

It was just glossed over.

Really one of the many things that was glossed over.

And then even looking for Amy's phone, patting down her body.

I mean that that whole thing of David Simmons not being able to go up to the house because his dad apparently wasn't there even though he worked at home all the time, and then him also afterwards when they came back to the property trying to get in there to get Amy's phone again where he said, de Larry Blain, you know I need to go get my phone.

Wasn't his phone because when he said it was my phone, they said what color is it?

And he said pink.

He was claiming Amy's pink phone was his phone.

Yeah, and he wanted it, but Constable Blandford refused to give it to him.

Yeah, refused to let him back, and he denies it obviously, But I mean, who are you going to believe a.

Swan police officer.

I believe the police officer.

Yeah, yeah, Well what benefit would he get from making that up?

No?

Exactly, that was part of his official signed statement as a police officer.

I mean, I've got no doubt that what he said was exactly what happened.

This same day, the forensic Field Operations team, led by Sergeant Brad Nind, went back to the house where Amy died.

In his report, Nind noted that the bedroom had been professionally cleaned, and even a section of carpet and underlay in the doorway to the bedroom had been removed.

Now that's the first time I've read this, but this carpet had been removed.

Well, who made the decision to remove that carpet?

Unsafe to assume anything in this case, But do we assume that was the professional cleaners who said, look, this is beyond cleaning, and either David Simmons or his father were present to supervise the cleaning and agreed that the carpet should be removed.

I mean, how do you how do you do that?

Another unanswered question, liamb something that the police, the new investigation team should be going back to.

The premises was clean and tidy.

Very small amounts of blood evidence were present on the rear of the door and adjacent walls.

These stains were recorded and collected by BPA officers.

Well BPA is what they referred to in forensic circles as blood pattern analysis.

Upon completion of the scene examination in Serpentine, FFO officers attended the location of a vehicle subject to this incident in company of Detective Dan Drilly.

And FFO refers to forensic field operations.

Photographs were obtained of the interior and exterior of the vehicle and the presumptive test for blood was conducted on the steering wheel, interior and exterior driver's door handle which gave a negative reaction.

Due to this, no swabs were obtained from the vehicle.

Back to Detective Senior Sergeant McDonald at the inquest, he was questioned about how Operation Dundee came under his jurisdiction.

There's a team structure within the Major Crime Squad which is now the Homicide Squad, same principal, different name.

So the on call which was the process of provision of a telephone so that anyone required assistance or advice they would contact the on call phone.

My team was on call that week.

We were advised in the morning of the twenty seventh by Rockingham detectives that there were some concerns.

This is what they were advised.

My understanding is the initial investigations were conducted under the powers of the Coroner's Act Section thirty three.

It was dealt with as a coronial matter and not a criminal matter.

The coronial investigation in it referred the matter to Major Crime.

Detective McDonald said he wasn't advised about it until after lunch, too late to stop the professional cleaners who arrived at ten am.

He was then asked about Simmons and Price's arrest.

My view of the interviews was that they were conducted competently and both men appeared truthful.

Price curainly appeared to my recollection quite truthful, which is not always the case with people we interview.

My recollection is the actually I thought at the time that his interview as quite good and that he came across he presented as truthful and honest.

There were still inconsistencies between the interviews of the two men, which is not surprising given that they are two different people who have entered a room at two different times on their explanation, and people under stress and in circumstances that they are not used to and that will often have a different view of the same event.

Detective McDonald is then asked what he looked for when determining whether a witness is honest or not.

Well, principally, we look for lies, and lies are not always obvious.

We're seeking an account from them as to what their actions were if that provides us with the opportunity.

So, just to clarify here, Detective McDonald says they were looking for lies, which, of course they both couldn't have been telling the truth, could they.

I mean, if the story is different at all, they're not both telling the truth on the same issue or the same subject.

But Detective McDonald justifies that by explaining.

There were some slight variations between them, but in the large part, predominantly the accounts were well very similar.

Simmons and Price were intoxicated, so police had to wait until they sobered up before interviewing them.

Detective McDonald was asked if, after reviewing those interviews, he suspected Simmons and Price colluded.

No, I don't.

I don't believe so.

He also defended the detective's decision to rule Amy's death a suicide so early, saying that Amy's body could have been moved, despite of course, the blood spatter experts, as we know, having ruled that out.

I don't recall anything specific about the position of her body in viewing those photographs.

Certainly, I don't find that.

I don't recall anything from those photographs that suggested to me that it was clearly not a suicide.

But upon being pushed on this point, he clarified.

There were concerns about the position of the body.

Yes, I can't recall without further reference specifically that they were.

But having said that, my understanding is that there was some force required to move to get into the room.

There are a number of explanations for how her hand may have wound up in that position.

And when about Naya's evidence about Simmons putting the gun in the cupboard, detective McDonald said he couldn't recall that, but he told the inquest in his view, as a general rule, children are honest.

Similarly, when asked if he remembered Naya saying that Price, Gareth Price, had put something in the bin after Amy's death.

I don't recall, sorry, the.

Couple's history of domestic violence.

So we examined it.

I would point out that there are many family violence incidents in this state every day that don't result in murder.

It's worth noting too that in the Operation Jundee report, reference was made to the violent argument just before Amy's death, but it stipulated that Amy was the aggressor and Simmons the vicar.

I'm still trying to get my head around that.

It also states there was no evidence to suggest this account is unreliable and no apparent motive for Simmons to want to kill Amy.

Well put, simply, how the hell do they come up with that opinion?

Well, because they weren't looking for one.

Basically, the motive came later.

They only done a very perfunctory investigation at this stage.

But there's no background at all on all the domestic violent stuff.

We know that we've been through that in the last fifteen episodes up.

Yeah, there's no real investigation about their background.

How can there be a decision made about motive if you haven't done proper research into background for anybody.

If you've done no research into history of a relationship full stop, not just domestic violence, but a whole stake of other issues, how can you say there's no motive for anything?

Is if you don't if you don't know what you know, If you don't know what makes people tick within that relationship, whether it be between them or wider family, extended family, close friends, If you haven't done any of that background and any of that historical research, how the hell can anybody say that there's no motive, no apparent motive.

Surely they teach that in police training academy.

Surely.

Yeah.

Look, I don't know, Liam, I mean, well, one thing I do know that they checked was whether there being a reported domestic violence, and of course they hadn't.

But as you know, and as we outlined in the last episode, eight out of ten incidents of domestic violence aren't reported, you know, twenty percent are reported.

That's my whole point.

But we are dealing with the people.

The people who are writing the report are the people who are dealing with the domestic violence issues.

Yeah, all these thousands of issues that we've talked about in the States.

Yeah, so if.

Anyone should know anything about background and possible motives, it should be them.

There's also this sort of crime of passion, which which we know can flare in an instant.

But if people are already sort of predisposed, if you know what I mean, because of their their tendency to violence in their backgrounds, I mean, there's all that and more so.

I mean, I just look at that one line, just that one line for me to conclude no apparent motive for Simmons to want to kill Amy, I mean to me, I'm sorry, but that makes this the whole report on Operation jun D is complete and utter joke.

Not to mention the thing that everyone knows, the most dangerous time for a woman is when they're leaving.

For a woman in a relationship and a domestic violence relationship, which of course the fight should have indicated that there was domestic violence, just that fight beforehand, regardless of who they thought was the aggressor, that's domestic violence.

And the most dangerous time is when the woman is leaving.

So that's not rocket science, is it.

No?

Well, unfortunately, there's a whole body of evidence to back that up.

There's a whole ton of research nationally and internationally to back that up.

So you're dead.

Right back to the inquest, So Senior Sergeant McDonald world is asked if he considered the investigation to be thorough.

Yes, accepting al that an internal assessment of Operation Juhndee observed some criticism, including the following here we go.

There's four different points of critique.

Number one, a lack of scrutiny on the location of the shotgun according to Simmonson Price when they entered the room.

Number two, the need for a more comprehensive forensic analysis of the clothes and footwear that they wore.

What a surprise.

They came to the same conclusion as US three.

Failure to undertake covert opportunities like telephone intercepts, to which McDonald explained would only happen if he determined it to be a homicide.

It's interesting, isn't it.

I thought phone intercepts were used as a form of intelligence gathering, not to justify a decision you'd already made.

Yeah.

Anyway, The last criticism, this is an internal criticism again just to remind people, so it's not ours, it's the polices that Detective McDonald, not Detective Sergeant Darryl Evans should have compiled the final report.

So that's a process thing that they thought should have been one step out and one step back basically for sort of more of an independent look at it.

I think, Look, I think I can say in my experience that I have never yet completed an investigation that I couldn't have looked at later with the benefit of hindsight and done differently or better.

And they would certainly be the case here.

But I don't believe that I'm aware of anything that would change my opinion this time.

There are other things we might have done, but I don't believe that would all to my view of what occurred.

Now you are aware of our listeners, aren't Liam.

We actually reached out to w Police about Operation Jenny, given that they did do a review of Kirkman and Weedman areter the inquest, and given this other evidence that has come forth, including new evidence that we're about to bring to light, they just didn't answer, basically refuse to answer.

I put them to the Commissioner, ilicted a whole bunch of questions Operation Jundi and the handling of Amy's case brought about by this new evidence that we've uncovered and they just ignored me.

So there you go.

It shows how important it is.

They told me that we could turn up to one of their doorstops anytime we want.

But when I asked them whether they could tell me when they were or whether they could notify us, they didn't get back to me about that either, So there you go.

That's the way it is.

But to see their invitation for us to turn up at a door stop, which a lot of people would recognize as sort of industry jargon, which is basically a press conference that is set up by the particular people involved.

Say, for instance, here the police commissioner to talk about a different subject because he's got some news for the assembled media, and clearly it's not going to be about Amy Wensley's death.

So we turn up to the doorstop, and then we wait for the assembled media to ask their other questions about that particular issue on the day, and then we ask the commissioner.

And then, according to their communication and correspondence with you, they are very very kindly, out of the goodness of their heart, they deign to answer the questions.

But if there's not enough information, or if we are asking too many questions.

Then, of course it's easy for us to look like we're bullying and hectoring the police commissioner.

So it's an interesting invitation.

You know, it's not quite what it seems on the surface.

I just make that point from an industry point of view, so that our listeners know where we're coming from.

Yeah, we'd be lucky to get one question in it's Yeah.

To say it's disingenuine, I think is probably again a massive understatement, but this case is full of understatements.

Let's continue.

Under Cross's examination by rain Wade, Detective McDonald struggled to justify this.

What consideration did you give to the positioning of the firearm and how in the circumstances that was consistent with suicide?

Well, it is not inconsistent because it's the firearm is still based on the evidence of witnesses within arm's reach until it's moved.

That is not inconsistent with suicide.

But you're forgetting a very important thing.

According to the thesis.

At the time, Amy used her right hand to push the figure back whilst holding the weapon with her left hand.

Yes, the recoil is away from her.

How does the weapon move against the recoil and into her lap facing upwards.

I don't see your point.

If she's holding it in this way and the recoil drives it down, it could conceivably hit the floor and bounce.

I have no idea to tell you how exactly it wound up in this position.

We don't know that.

Did you at any point think that possibly there was some utility in getting a blis expert just to comment on one matter, and that is, if Amy used the weapon from her right to kill herself, whether it was in any way possible for that weapon to end up in a lap.

No.

I didn't consider that necessary with hindsight.

Do you accept that's a fairly basic inquirity?

No.

I think the decisions I made were based on the evidence we had at the time, and I think they were reasonable.

I don't you know you custom McDonald, please answer my question.

Is that a fairly basic inquirity to ask an expert what are the characteristics of a firearm in recoil after it's discharged.

Well, that's why we had forensic ballistics officers involved with the job to provide that advice.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I have to pursue independent advice.

If I'm satisfied of the advice I got from the ballistics officer at the time, which I did.

That question has never been asked or answered by anyone from ballistics, and there is no evidence, no decision log, nothing to support that occurred.

Then I can't explain why that is.

Today and applying common sense, do you understand the difficulty that the family has with a construction of suicide where the weapon ends up in Amy's lap?

Well, they may not agree with the findings and they may not be that's not up with it.

Well, I don't agree.

I think those explanations are not The explanation or the lack of an explanation does not make a criminal or suggest it is anything else.

If you don't have an answer to the question, you may not have the answer to the question.

You may not be able to answer those questions.

That doesn't make it criminal or anything else.

But mister McDonald, I'm not suggesting any of that, and I know you're not a forensic expert, but her honor needs to make those findings in due course with reference to who are forensic experts?

What I need from you with reference to the issue of how Surah this investigation was in a very simple answer, as you sit here today, do you have even a late person's explanation as to how a firearm in the nature of a shotgun would move against its own recoil forward into Amy's lap given your hypothesis of suicide.

I have no explanation for that.

I mean, even when independent advice is sought and the finding three independent experts all rule out suicide and basically conclude homicide.

They conclude that a third party is involved, that Amy could not have shot herself major crime.

Now, the homicide unit refused to give it any weight, so I'm just saying, oh, no wonder.

Amy Wensley's family is very cynical about WA Police acting with integrity in this new investigation.

So WA Police has a running sheet on Amy's death which is constantly updated.

In the early stages, the only documents listed were witness statements from David Simmons and Gareth Price and a report from the Mandura Family Protection Unit following a meeting with Amy's mum c Kirk.

The officer initially in charge of the coronial investigation was Detective Senior Constable An Lahane.

Good afternoon, I've been assigned to the Amy Wensley file, and I'm just going through all the documentation that has been sent to CiU.

This is an email from Detective Lahane on the twentieth of August twenty fourteen.

CiU is the Coronial Investigation Unit.

I'm chasing the biomechanics report and or any forensic documentation by the relative forensics personnel.

Regards Ann.

She receives this response.

Hi, Ann, everything we have would be in the case files you have been provided.

Forensics keep and compile all of their own notes.

Et cetera.

To my knowledge, no report was ever generated by forensics regarding the biomechanics.

Detective Deandrilly from this office attended and performed the biomechanics part of the examination.

They provided their opinion on site that deceased was easily capable of inflicting the injury with the subject firearm herself.

You could ask them for a report if required.

Regards Cameron Blaine.

Now there's an interesting name.

You might remember the name, Cameron Blaine.

You certainly would if you're a West Australian, because Cameron Blaine was the officer filmed rescuing missing four year old Cleo Smith up in Carnarvon in Remote Wa in twenty twenty one, but then he lost his job after being a hero.

He got the boot after allegedly leaking information about the case to a journalist that he was seeing or trying to see emotionally.

Now, Detective Lahaine was told in no uncertain terms by the homicide squad that Amy Wensley's death was non suspicious, and there was a clear expectation from that squad from her superiors that she would come to the same conclusion as them in her investigation.

She followed up with the key experts already involved, like pathologist doctor Amy Spark.

Doctor Spark performed the autopsy on Amy Wensley.

Good afternoon, doctor Spark.

I have previously sent an email in relation to the post mortem report for the deceased Amy Wensley, although at the time I replied that it didn't need to be prioritized.

Could this now be bumped up the list?

I know you are extremely busy, but any assistants expediting the report would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards and Detective Lahine also met with Amy's mum, Nancy kirk She liaised with detectives Kirkman and Weedman sought second opinions and chased up forensic reports she thought had been undertaken.

That seems like an actual investigation.

Lamb exactly, asking questions, delving a bit further, digging a little bit further, trying to get behind the veneer.

It sounds like she did did a great job.

Queried the availability of a biomechanics report.

Senior Constable Meeks and Senior Constable Inskip attended the post mortem with a firearm that was the same type, shape and size as the firearm used in the incident.

Meeks and Inskip conducted an analysis and deducted that the deceased was capable of using the firearm with either hand and inflicting the wound sustained.

There is no biomechanics report.

The analysis was conducted during the post mortem.

Senior Constable Meeks believes the analysis slush examination should be detailed in the post mortem by the pathologist.

If not detailed by the pathologist, Senior Constable Meeks willing to provide a report as to the examination conducted.

Despite directions to treat Amy's death as non suspicious, Detective Lahyne wasn't buying it, and on twentieth of March twenty fifteen, she alerted her boss, Detective Sergeant Alex West, that the evidence just didn't add up.

Ballistics have stated they took a number of measurements and utilized a similar firearm to show that at the time of the post mortem that both arms could be maneuvered to utilize the firearm, but this does not determine that at the time of the incident the decease was able to use either arm, as the body reacts differently prior slush.

Post death forensics have stated that the measurements obtained would have to be forwarded to a physiologist to make a qualified determination that the deceased could have used either arm to utilize the firearm.

And so a meeting with the forensics division was held on the fourteenth of April twenty fifteen, which determined that Detective Anne Lahane create a matrix outlining any inconsistencies highlighted during the investigation, starting with an undertaking of a biomechanics examination.

Eighth of July twenty fifteen a review.

Hello, Brad and Michelle.

I've received the report in relation to the blood analysis conducted on the lower clothing.

I have conducted inquiries with Royal Perth Hospital in relation to whether the deceased experienced any mobility issues due to the car accident and subsequent C two fracture she suffered in January twenty thirteen.

R p H letter attached the last paragraph states that the decease reported no ongoing symptomology and no physical such movement restrictions noted as per discussions held on thirtieth of April twenty fifteen with the Forensic Division and Detective Inspector George Macintosh, are you able to progress with the appropriate testing in order to determine the viability of the deceased having an ability to inflict the wound I e.

Biomechanics kind regards Ann.

In the meantime, Detective Lahane also contacted Stephen Brown Lawyers, which confirmed Amy as a client.

Now.

In May twenty fourteen, not long before her death, Amy attended an appraisal with doctor Peter Watson from Sin John of gott Hospit.

Amy told them she was unable to undertake an employment position that she had applied for prior to the accident.

That's the car accident with Simmons Now.

Around the same time, the state government insurance Commissioner SGIC, which is no longer known as the SGIC, It's now known as the Insurance Business Australia sent David Simmons a crash report to complete, but it was never completed, so they appointed an investigator, a guy called Stephen Carozzi now mister Carozzi obtained a statement from David Simmons, who had lodged a motor vehicle claim with Amy Wensley sustaining injuries as a result of that crash.

Simmons did have third party insurance, but the SGIC did not have any other details relating to the claim.

Now.

In June twenty fourteen, Stephen Brown Lawyers received a call from a former client who knew the deceased Amy and advised that she had been quote killed by her partner.

Stephen Brown Lawyers told Detective Lahyne they'd never had any contact with David Simmons and advised the claim entitlement had ceased when Amy died.

However, experts trying to ascertain whether Amy's injury would have also impeded her ability to shoot herself were concerned that WA police did not take that into consideration, which is quite astounding, isn't it.

Here's an email to Detective L.

Hayne from forensic consultant and the manager of Quality Assurance, Mark Reynolds, dated fifth of August twenty fifteen.

And Kylie, thanks to the report and whilst I appreciate on the surf as it appears to indicate that following the C two spinal injury there was apparently no mobility restrictions.

Can you please tell exactly what was asked of doctor Weeks when they did testing.

I assume they did some that resulted in the comment no physical movement restrictions were noted?

Did the test indicate holding a shotgun horizontally to one's head?

Was Weeks told of the specific questions we wanted answered?

Sorry to bug you, but the hair on the back of my neck read this one won't go down, Mark Reynolds.

About a month prior to this, Doctor Reynolds sent this email to Detective Sergeants Brad Nind and Garith Waits see seeing in Detective Senior Sergeant John Robertson, gents.

I reviewed the BPA on this matter, but and yet to complete the formal report.

I've had to reprioritize this matter behind the BPA report for Operation Marino trial August sixteen and the trial of four police officers commencing in Sydney twenty six to the fourth twenty sixteen, for which I am prosecution witness.

I will complete the report asap following my evidence in New South Wales.

What I can say is that the BPA evidence supports the deceased as being shot in the position found with little or no movement of her following the injury infliction.

Regards Mark Reynolds, APM PhD.

Here's an excerpt from doctor Reynolds Bloodstained Patent Analyst report he prepared for the coroner, dated eighteenth of May twenty sixteen.

Blood flows can be seen originating from the ear, nose, mouth, and injury of Wensley.

The path of the flows from those areas are downwards and essentially parallel to each other, indicating that their direction has been driven by gravity.

Furthermore, little apparent deviation from the vertical and parallel configuration is seen in any of these blood flows, indicating that at the time of flow, there has been little or no movement of Wensley's head from its position as seen in the photographic record.

Saturation blood stains are seen on the clothing of Wensley, and a pooled accumulation of blood is present on the carpet adjacent to her body.

Conclusions one, at the time of the injury infliction, Wensley's body was in the position and configuration or near position and configuration as seen in the photographic record.

Two, at the time of injury infliction, Wensley's head was in the position or near position as seen in the photographic record.

And three, Whilst the specific configuration of the contacting surface responsible for the deposition of some of the transferred blunt stains seen on the curved surfaces of the barrels cannot be determined, the color, shape, and positioning of the blood stains is suggestive of a surface that was flexible and or yielding.

Three years later, on the thirty first of March twenty nineteen, forensic Field Operation Sergeant Brett mccantz made a similar finding.

Weinsley has not moved or been moved from this location post injury infliction.

So al When Professor Timothy Ackland reconstructed a simulation to test whether or not it was possible that Amy could have killed herself, he observed that the model representing Amy couldn't quote hold up the gun even with both hands.

He noted that the model found it difficult to place the gun in a position with the slightwood downward trajectory in which the bullet entered Amy's right temple.

Detectives at the scene on the evening of the incident suggested that the deceased could have held and fired the gun with her left hand, either with or without the assistance of her right hand.

As seen in Figures twenty and twenty one.

The model struggles to hold the gun and her head in an orientation that matches the post has shown in figure one and consistent with the orientation of the deceased.

Injuries to her head and to face, as well as blood spatter marks on the wall to the left side of her head, even with the assistance of her right hand.

When one views the video footage, the model is heard to report how awkward the position is and how difficult it was to hold the gun, let alone pull The trigger.

Weight or mass of the gun is six point three nine one pounds or two point eight nine kilograms free recall energy.

Considering the weights of the shot, what and powder in the cartridge equals eight point seven pounds.

And Professor Acklin concludes, if what Price says about the location of the gun is correct, then.

My conclusion remains that the gun was placed there by a person other than the deceased.

So the left hand couldn't have been used, neither could the right hand.

Given a scenario whereby the decease shot herself by holding the barrel against her right temple using her left hand, then orientating the gun horizontally and near perpendicularly to the side of her head, and finally pushing the trigger with her right hand, where would the gun end up after discharge?

According to my calculations above, and with the assumptions as stated, I estimate the gun would have come to rest some twenty one centimeters away from the deceased hand, landing on the carpet, with the barrel pointing toward the victim.

In no way does this position relate to the photographs or our attempt to recreate elements of the witness statement by mister Price.

Now at the inquest, Major Crime Division Detective Superintendent Rob Scantlebury backed Detective McDonald's conclusion that they could not place anyone else in the room with Amy.

However, that's only if they ignore Neya's evidence and the gun's location, because it had to have been placed where it was found, not that it was possible for her to shoot herself.

Anyway, If mister Price, as the first person who have entered the room after mister d.

Simmons, has stated the location of the gun truthfully, then my conclusion remains that the gun was placed there by a person other than the deceased.

Dr Timothy Ackland, PhD, Professor of Applied Anatomy and Biomechanics, the University of Wa, fourteen August twenty eighteen.

So we'll be speaking to Professor Acklin next episode, and that's a fascinating interview with Professor Acklin.

He's very confident with his conclusion, even today, with the limitations of what a reconstructed crime scene brings, he is very very confident.

Of course, by the time his evidence came through, Detective Senior Constable and Lahane had left the coronial investigation unit.

It's understood her relocation had nothing to do with the way she conducted her investigation, but the fact she refused to treat Amy's death as non suspicious certainly ruffled some feathers.

At one stage, she was severely reprimanded by a higher ranking detective Lamb in major crime.

He was so angry and stood so close to her that she remembered feeling he spit on her face.

She says her decision killed her career at w A police.

Are you surprised by that?

Incredible, isn't it?

Well?

Well, I actually am surprised because you've got a person here who's who's very committed, very professional in her approach to everything, successful because of it to a certain point, as she says, you know she's intimating she obviously didn't go past that point because she stood her ground based on professional analysis, which just goes to prove it's very sad.

Actually, I think it's just goes to prove again the layers of politics involved in this.

I mean, if someone came to you and said the sort of stuff we've heard from from Detective Lahayne, you know, you know, to form a view that police are willing to throw these tier one crimes under the carpet for the sake of political expediency within their own ranks, you know, just to protect other people's reputation.

You'd laugh at it, wouldn't you think it's a stupid conspiracy theory.

But Detective Lahyne is just another another person with integrity in a line of people that had integrity that weren't listened to or were sidelined or were treated like that.

I mean, the spit in the face is just in the Can you imagine it?

I mean, that would make life incredibly uncomfortable, wouldn't it to work within ranks like that?

But it's so disappointing to hear that stuff from a public point of view, and it just goes to the heart of what Amy Wensley's family are still going through.

And it was only ten years ago, lamp, so we're not talking you know, like you can kind of imagine that.

Sort of sow this look I don't.

Yeah, absolutely, this is not a cold case for me.

I mean, this is you know, there's someone still walking around who's responsible.

So this is not a cold case.

This is very much alive, very much alive.

I obviously went to police, I mean, because that's the impression I get as well, right, that they're protecting the cool kids or whatever, or you know, for whatever reason and anyone, you know, because this isn't a police bashing exercise.

There are so many police who are doing the right things in this investigation, and they're terrific, But this talks to the organization, the system itself, right, and that's what really disturbs me.

And I went back to a w Police as you know again that was you know, one of my questions and that you know, it was about six questions all up.

They're not answering it.

They don't there you know, write a reply obviously, I mean, because that's the impression that everyone will get.

And I guess they just don't think it's warrants any justification.

I don't know.

So I also went to the new Police Minister, Reese Whitby, to find out if he had any concerns given the respective damage this was doing to Wave Pole's reputation and it's apparent failure to protect and serve the people of Western Australia.

You've said it numerous times, Slam.

At the time of this area, we hadn't received a response.

But let's give it one more week to see if the minister is worth his salt or just another powerful person who puts politics before justice.

If that is the case, we'll go to Premier Cook.

Remember too, that Reese Whitby, the new Police Minister, used to be a journalist.

Oh really, yeah, for Channel seven at one stage.

So he knows very well the power of public perception and the power of messaging and communication.

So if anyone can appreciate the fact that somebody should say something, it is the new police minister fingers crossed.

But had Detective Lahyane not followed her gut concerns Amy's death being anything other than a suicide may have never seen the light of gay.

Yep.

That's absolutely right.

She has been and to an extent still is a very very integral piece of this jigsaw puzzle, isn't she.

And I've got to say again, you know, by standing up and taking the position she took, you've got to give her full credit.

I hate here about people experiencing that sort of stuff in the end, but I love hearing about that sort of integrity.

That's the sort of thing we need in the police.

Detective la Hayne also our identified numerous issues which weren't considered during that operation Juhndee or jun D, depending on which school he went to, including evidence provided by Rick kirk Now.

Rick is Amy's stepfather that Amy told him the Sunday before her death.

The Sunday before her death, she told her stepdad that Simmons held a knife to her throat.

Now I've met Rick Kirk, so of you and I reckon he's a pretty straight up sort of guy.

For him to give that evidence, I think is quite compelling.

She also Detective La Hayne that is had issues with the way detectives handled the interviews with Gareth Price and David Simmons when he was arrested a few days after Amy's death.

They had a list of questions which they ticked off as they went through with no probing.

It was literally a tick and click exercise.

That was Detective Leahynes's criticism, not ours.

Now we've sent questions to Wa police about this, You've sent them plenty l In an email, she also pointed out Detective la Haynes, this is that David Simmons only disclosed that he'd retrieved his other firearm, his twenty two rifle, from the front seat of his Subaru, and shot at a bird which was attempting to remove fish from the pond.

After Amy's six year old daughter was interviewed by a specialist child investigator.

This fact had not been mentioned in any previous statement or conversations, and was corroborated by nad who mentioned it during the course of her interview with the child Assessment team.

I find that fascinating to it, and it's worth mentioning here that Simmons' story changed from shooting at a bird, which it was attempting to remove fish from the pond, according to him, to shooting at parrots trying to take fruit from the tree.

That was the other story that was given that.

I'm not sure about you, but I think that if you're talking about conflict, shooting at a bird in a tree compared to shooting at bird on a pond is quite different.

Now quite different.

Are you trying to remove fish or you're trying to remove parrots?

What are you trying to do?

Hello?

Now here's what Detective Lahayne concluded in her report, which was completed incidentally by Detective Sergeant Gary Thwaites.

Amy Lee Wensley was a twenty four year old female who was in a tumultuous relationship with her partner, David Robert Simmons, which had a major impact on her confidence and self worth.

Family and friends of the deceased believe Simmons displayed a high degree of domination and control over the deceased.

The dominance, combined with the isolation of rural living and financial stress, appeared to heighten the deceased anxiety, albeit outwardly she she appeared to be a happy and outgoing person.

The deceased sought assistance from her general practitioner for her declining mental health and was subsequently prescribed antidepressant medication.

On the strength of the evidence gathered by the MCS Major Crime Squad, both Simmons and Price were interviewed and cleared of any criminal involvement in the death of the deceased.

As a result of my investigations and review of the circumstances in this matter, there is insufficient evidence to substantiate the unlawful involvement of another person in the death of the deceased.

This concludes my investigation into the death of Amy Lee Wensley, subject of further direction from the coroner.

Forwarded for your information and attention, Detective Senior Constable and Lehane Coronial Investigation Squad.

This is Detective Lahne at the twenty twenty one coronial inquest.

She's speaking with counsel assisting the coroner, Sarah Tyler.

When this case came to you, did you have any initial concerns upon receiving and reviewing the material from the Major Crime Squad?

Yes?

I did.

What concerns did you have when the file.

Originally came to me?

Actually, Major Crime hadn't had the file at that stage, and I reviewed it at that point and then it went to Major Crime and then it came back to me.

Was this the day after Amy died?

Yes, it came to you first.

Were you the person it.

Came to the Coronial Unit?

Then I actually reviewed it with some other.

Officers, okay.

And what concerns did you immediately identify that caused it to be referred to Major Crime?

It was the inconsistencies in the statements that were taken at the time.

Between David Simmons and Gareth Price Price.

Yes, and as a result of those inconsistencies, you felt that a more fulsome investigation should occur.

That's correct, Yes, all right.

Were you involved in briefing the Major Crime Squad in any way?

Yes?

I was, and I was also involved in the arrest of David Simmons and Gareth Price.

And I understand that you've been in the back of the court throughout the inquest thus far, is that correct?

That's correct?

Yes, after you were involved in the initial discuss and the case was referred back to the Major Crime squad.

Were you involved in any other point during that initial referral stage or through the Major Crime investigation.

When it was Operation jund No, not until it came back to the coronials.

So when it was referred back to the Coronial Service, was it allocated to you?

Yes?

What steps did you take upon receiving that file?

So I reviewed all the information and intelligence they gave me which was in the file, and also reviewed some of the viper actions.

I then started to put the coronial file together and I identified what outstanding lines of inquiry should be followed, for instance a forensic So I started looking at that and then I asked Major Crime for a memo giving their critical decisions on what actually how they deemed it non suspicious.

So your initial concern were the inconsistencies between the witness statements.

That's correct.

On the first day.

Upon receiving the file from Operation Junde.

Were your concerns addressed?

They the majority of them were.

When I received the memo from Major Crime, I did identify that they had actually specified there was a biomechanics report, and I queried that biomechanics report and asked for a copy because I couldn't find it, and was advised there actually wasn't a biomechanics report.

I then contacted forensic and asked them were they going to provide a biomechanics report?

And they said no, they would not provide one.

Did they explain why?

They said, it's only done on homicides?

Okay, do you know where the information came that there had been a biomechanics report?

Was it a case of the measurements being done by the officers at the post mortem had been confused for a biomechanical report.

I don't recall if they told me that.

They basically said that they could only give me the verbal or that dimensions they had taken or the measurement, but and if I required anything further from that, I would have to go to the physiologist.

Did they basically say that was kind of outside their area of expertise, like they did the measurements and whether there was a possible or impossibility of arms reaching certain length of shotguns, but they weren't prepared to go down on paper and do a full report saying you really need to go to a more expert person in that area.

Is that right?

That's correct?

Yes?

Is that how you ended up consulting Professor Ackland?

Yes?

Do you remember when that occurred?

Was that in November of twenty fourteen?

That was a few months into my investigation.

I actually can't recall because I had actually gone through the forensic at that stage and actually spoke to forensic and asked them.

So a bit of tooing and throwing there wasn't there?

There was, Yes, it was a bit of back and forth.

So I asked them who I would speak to or what I and I think doctor Mark Reynold's advised to speak to you wa.

You wa is University of Western Australia.

He made the referral to Professor Ackland.

He did, yes, Okay, did you speak directly to Professor Ackland?

No?

Did you email him or brief him in some way?

I don't recall actually whether it was me that had done it or.

Doctor rh Okay, what was your understanding of the response by Professor Acklin to the initial request that he provide or biomechanical opinion?

Did he agree to do that?

I think I had left coronial by that stage, but I think he basically said that he.

Could not give determination.

My understanding was that he told officers that there were too many unknowns to make a formal determination.

Yes, that's correct.

I understand you also made some further inquiries of forensics in relation to the bloodstained pattern analysis and the forensic analysis undertaken of the clothing.

Is that correct?

That's correct?

Yes.

Can you talk me a little bit through those inquiries.

Well, originally I contacted forensic to get any information from them and any reports that were available.

I ended up having a meeting with Forensic and with my officer in charge, and we discussed what they could offer and what we required, and brad Mind turned around and said that he would provide the forensic report because he was the case manager.

Okay.

I also requested a BP report.

As well, Detective Lahayne, he's referring to blood pattern analysis.

Did you ultimately receive those reports?

I think I received the BPA.

Again, I think that was after I left the investigation.

Did you review any other materials?

For example, Triple O calls, the Serpentine Roadhouse CCTV footage.

Was that all part of Operation Junde's brief, Yes, okay.

Did you speak independently to any witnesses or is that did you reply upon the Operation jun De records.

The witnesses I spoke to as part of the coronial report.

You actually have to speak to the family.

So I spoke to Nancy Kirk, and I spoke to the three friends of Amy's and that was near the end of my investigation that I spoke to them and obtained a statement from them.

Was the purpose of that to explore the type of relationship that Amy and David had.

That's correct?

Yes, okay, based on your conversations with Amy's friends, did you have concerns about the conclusions reached by Operation Juhnde.

I had concerns all the way through the investigation.

But whether for all of the lines of inquiries I followed, I didn't actually achieve any I didn't get any further information to suggest that someone else was involved.

Is that because that information simply wasn't available or were there any problems?

That's correct?

And also the original attendance.

I think we lost some information at the original attendance.

The premature decision that it was suicide, yes, and the failure to investigate that night.

Yes, okay, are you satisfied?

And I appreciate you left the Coronial Investigation Service before this report was finalized, But to the extent that you were involved in this case, are you satisfied that every line of inquiry that you could think of was appropriately pursued with respect to Amy's death?

Every line I identified?

Yes?

What was the ultimate conclusion with respect to your involvement in this investigation?

There was insufficient evidence to make any form of determination.

Did you have a view one way or the other?

How Amy died?

I try to follow the evidence rule, and I, as I said, I didn't find anything that gave me an indicator that someone else had been involved.

But whether that's because we lost the evidence at the start, I'm not sure.

I appreciate you have no specific qualifications in this area, but as an experienced police officer, the coroner is going to have to grapple with how Amy's right hand came to be resting under her buttocks when there's a suggestion that she used that hand to pull the trigger to shoot herself.

Is there a scenario that you can think of that would allow that to occur and allow that finding to be suicide or do you think there's simply too many questions.

I think there's too many questions.

Do you have a definitive view one way or the other?

No?

Is there anything further you'd like to say about the investigations into Amy's death or your conclusions?

No?

Thank you, Detective, seen your constable.

I have no further questions.

Detective, Just before you go to council, if I can just clarify with you, and as I say, I have read through a lot of your running sheet which kind of indicated all of the steps you were taking.

But from my understanding from your evidence today and from that running sheet, is that you received the file very early on after the initial detectives who attended the scene had determined it non suspicious.

But when you.

Received that you didn't receive it with a closed mind.

You looked at it and immediately had some concerns about that decision.

Is that right?

That's correct?

All right?

So, as a coronial investigator, if you've got some concerns that there is some suspicion in relation to the death or potential criminality, you have the option of referring it somewhere else, such as major Crime Squad at that time.

Is that right?

You have to go through your train of command.

Sure, so you would speak to like I did spoke to my sergeant.

But on the initial day when we initially got the file there was it wasn't handed to me on that day.

I was just that we were There was a few colleagues reviewing it and we between us we kind of went, well, there's some inconsistencies in the statement, and then it was given to one of the sergeants who brought it over to Major Crime.

I'm unsure who actually brought it over, So it wasn't your decision, That's correct.

With your colleagues in Coronial Investigation Unit, you had some concerns about it being considered a non suspicious death at that stage, so it was referred through the line of the hierarchy back through to Major Crime, and you were aware that an investigation then took place.

Is that right?

That's correct.

But when it came back to you, it came back with in effect the same conclusion, in the sense that it had been ruled that there was no obvious criminality and it was to be investigated as a non suspicious with moving towards a potential suicide.

Is that right, that's correct.

I was advised to actually investigate it as a coronial file, which is.

A sudden and unexpected but not less non suspicious, right.

But the impression from your running sheet is that you still have some unanswered questions as to how that conclusion had been reached.

Is that right?

That's correct?

Yes, just a clarification here.

Detective Senior Constable Anne Lahane was still under the employee of WA Police when she appeared before the inquest.

However, she no longer had carriage of the inquest investigation, and while the Coronial Investigation Unit maintained her position, they weren't prepared to push any harder than that.

Next week through the eyes of an expert, Tim Ackland.

What I'm saying is she could not have killed herself holding the gun in front of her, with all those other pieces of evidence.

Professor Tim Mackland will explain his report, and that is certainly worth listening to.

So the only thing that then made sense, and partly because this trajectory of the entry and exit were in the trajectory of the pellets was horizontal but slightly down.

The fact that Price said that the gun was placed here led me to conclude that Amy was shot by a third party and.

The gun was placed there.

So so de.

Re uti.

Unt.

If you knew Amy and have information, any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you.

Just at The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au.

That's s E V E N The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot Au, or visit our website sevenews dot com dot au forward slash the Truth about Amy.

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