This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide.

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A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationships am bags packed car, running, her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.

Panic.

Amy is dead, sir By, Amy's dead?

Eight confusion World.

About five minutes they sit n' to suicide.

One hundred percent.

This is emmersing.

What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

The truth about Amy?

There are at least six indicators or predictive factors of a stage suicide.

So number one a sudden and unexpected death when in good health.

Two death by suicide, three evidence of separation, four prior domestic abuse and or coercive control.

Five the deceased was found dead at home.

And six the deceased was found by the current or former partner.

I also told you that there were other factors.

In fact, there are ten.

Now these four are from the Alliance for Hope International who've investigated many suspicious domestic abuse related suicides, and they are seven a prior DOMESI abuse history which involved strangulation, The deceased partner was last to see the victim alive.

Nine, the victim's partner or ex partner had control of the scene before law enforcement arrived.

And ten the body had been moved or the scene and or evidence had been altered in some way.

Amy's case checks all ten.

When all ten indicators are present, it's always a homicide.

And welcome back to our second bonus episode of the Truth About Amy.

I'm Liam Bartlett.

And I'm Alison Sandy And.

As you probably recognized, that was internationally renowned criminal behavioral analyst Laura Richards from a recent double episode on Amy Wensley in her own podcast, Crime Analyst.

Were worth checking out.

But before we talk more on this, I know many of you listening would be expecting us to discuss an incredible development in Amy's case involving none other than one of the key witnesses that we've been discussing for quite some time.

However, we want to make a point that legally we cannot discuss it for reasons which will become apparent later.

Hell, yes, Liam, you could have bowled me over with a feather when I heard the news, which many of you, particularly those living in WA would know about.

We've had to disable the Truth about Amy and Amy's Voice Facebook accounts for the time being, but our Instagram is still active with comments turned off.

That may change, so just keep checking.

Now back to Laura Richards, who our loyal listeners already know is one of the most critical and credible experts who have spoken out about the much overdue justice for Amy, and she's contributed to Amy's story reaching millions across the globe, many of who have contacted us with tips or well wishes and sometimes devastating firsthand experiences.

All are supportive in having the truth about Amy come to light because of what it means not just to Amy's family and friends, but for all victims of domestic violence who haven't been heard and a cynical of a system which hasn't supported them thus far.

Yes, and the way they're treated and are being treated in the present tense, just like Amy, put under a microscope as though they deserve somehow what's been happening to them, and just not seeing or ignoring what they're seeing ignoring what's blatantly obvious.

When you go to an Internet where there's a shotgun involved, you should treat it as a homicide, in other words, a murder or a manslaughter and work back from that premise to prove anything else you don't deem it a suicide from day one.

And so you'll recall Ron Iddle's the good cop who featured in our fourth Conversations episode all those months ago explaining detecting one oh one.

But hidden homicides or ignored homicides aren't just an issue here in Australia.

Hi, I'm Sacramento Police Chief Catherine Lester.

In fact one, government has gone so far as to introduce legislations.

Across the state of California.

At the start of this year, the Californian Senate introduced a new bill which is now being referred to as Joanna's Law.

And every professional responding to your death scene needs to know what Joanna's Law expects and requires.

This is in reference to Joanna Hunter, a pastor's wife and repeat victim of domestic violence, who was killed in October twenty eleven at her home in Solano County, California.

I lost my sister to domestic violence over thirteen years ago, and her.

Death was deemed suicide in less than twenty eight minutes.

And as such there was no investigation in the domestic violence history of her husband, Mark Lewis.

There wasn't even an autopsy.

Since then, we've learned Joanna tried to leave Lewis several times prior going to a mum's house.

Each time he would terrorize her with actions like slashing her tires, ringing relentlessly, then hanging up, even throwing a rock through the window.

If the sheriff office had bothered to check, they'd have discovered Louis was previously jailed for physically assaulting and strangling Joanna.

In twenty twenty three, with the assistance of the Sacramento Regional Family Justice Center, the case was re examined.

It received even more attention when Joanna's brother, Joe Hunter, became a contestant on survivor and quickly revealed to his caste mats the circumstances of his sister's death.

Lewis has not yet faced trial for Joanna's death, but has been jailed since after the attempted murder of another woman.

Despite this, publicity of Joanna's case has led to critical change.

Thank goodness, yes, al every adversity, every failure, every heartache carries with it the seed of an equal or greater benefit.

Not my words, of course, but one of America's most famous self help authors, Napoleon Hill, who's basically saying, don't make the same mistake twice.

So while there's a lack of justice for Joanna, a powerful lesson has been learned and picked up and so now in California, upon turning up to a death, law enforcement officers must treat it as suspicious.

They're obliged to treat it as the vious if anyone of these following factors are present.

Have a listened to this Someone dying prematurely or in an untimely manner.

Their death occurred at home and or appeared as a suicide or accident.

What does that sound like?

Their body was discovered by their current or previous partner.

That's another tick in the box.

One partner wanting to end the relationship.

A history of domestic violence, including coercive control and or strangulation.

Their partner was the last one to see them alive and had control of the scene before police arrived and finally the victim was moved or evidence was altered in some way.

Now, if you tick any one of those factors, if any one of those factors are present when the police turn up, that means calling in forensics.

Yeah.

Liam, It's so good to see government taking action, because if there's one thing we've learned, often those on the inside are blinded by their allegiances.

You'll recall an email from a detective superintendent in the homicide squad we acquired under freedom of information laws in response to the announcement Amy's death was now being considered a homicide.

I saw this in today's paper.

Interestingly, it wasn't a homicide.

It's clear when we started this podcast that his views were shared by at least some of the police hierarchy.

So I don't mind saying I feel pretty vindicated that Amy's death ticks every box in the checklist.

Yeah, that's the amazing part out.

It ticks every single box.

And I just want to reiterate that that under this new Californian law, you only have to tick one box.

One box.

And many people who are listening to this podcast would think, well, you know, isn't it sort of going over the top.

Isn't it too prescriptive?

Don't some of these detects who turn up at a scene have some brains.

Don't you have to credit them for having some intelligence and being able to have initiative in their own right.

And yes you do.

And that's all of the above correct.

But this prescription makes it safe for any of the victims because it takes the guesswork out of it and makes it so basic as to be completely one hundred percent effective.

And these factors aren't just a construct developed by a bunch of journals like us giving our twenty cents worth, or a bunch of academics who never see the real world and just do all this on some sort of theory paper.

This is, as Laura mentioned, from a mob called the Alliance for Hope International.

Now that sounds a bit floury, but stay with us, because the Alliance for Hope International operates the National Family Justice Center Alliance in America, and that's a big deal.

They had a train institute on strangulation prevention, the American Justice Legal Network, and domestic violence programs.

So simply put, it's got a whole hepocred and given it's now mandated.

You can bet that those backing it did their due diligence when they were actually setting it out and constructing it.

You don't have to be nostrodamist to know a lot more change is coming and hopefully coming here.

We now have three states of course in Australia with coercive Control laws three so far, as well as Queensland and New South Wales just weeks ago.

South Australia also introduced the legislation.

However, and this is the part that still rankles.

As you know, ol WA has been very slow on the uptake, and there still isn't anything in place to prevent the same mistakes made with Amy's case being made again.

Let me just say that again because it's incredible.

This is after ten years, over ten years were going on a lets there's still not anything in place to prevent the same mistakes made with Amy's case being made again.

And by that I mean forensics still won't necessarily be called in.

It's still not mandatory at all, given all those circumstances that we've just talked about and we know to be part of Amy's case, especially if you have another detective Kirkman or similar personality on the scene leading the investigation.

Yeah, l am.

I contacted Waypole once again to see if they were prepared to do something that will prevent the same thing happening.

They provided a long winded response which didn't answer the question, but made it clear in no uncertain terms, that there were no plans to change the status quo.

I then went to police mister Reese Whitby, who provided a similar response, which I won't read in its entirety because he'll put you to sleep.

But to paraphrase, said, the homicide squad decides whether forensics.

To tenant the homicide squad.

Yeap, just the homicide squad.

And again it's a call from I guess the lead detective on scene.

Okay, well, let me paraphrase just for a moment.

So basically, we've learned nothing from Amy's case, and we refuse, in wa to take any lessons from our international partners with similar law enforcement principles.

We've just been through the whole California legislation.

We refuse to look outside the box, outside our own small jurisdiction, relatively and learn a single thing.

So we just what what do we do?

We just reinvent the egg over again.

So the homicide squad.

Al let me sum up the homicide squad in WA.

And this is for the benefit of all our Eastern States listeners, well every state that's not Western Australia.

The homicide squad remains the same.

They decide whether the forensics turn up even after all this time.

So let me tell you how well the homicide squad is going in WA.

This is who you're relying on side squad.

Let me just roll off a few names for you, no chronological order.

Hayley Dott and Za, Pelly Felicia Wilson, Josh Warnikey, Stacy Thorn, Ray and Jenny Keller, Lisa Mott, Susan Christy, Pamela Lawrence, Coren Rainey, Amy Wensley.

Now they're just the names that I've come up with, literally in the last five minutes thinking about this and thinking about the track record of the homicide squad.

That's not an exhaustive list, but that's just a list of names that I think many people who especially have had dealings with Western Australia in any way, shape or form, family friends or relatives or any police interaction would know because they've made a lot of headlines, because every single one of those murders has been completely bungled forensically one way or the other.

There's either been massive mistakes, huge oversights, or complete stuff ups use the vernacular by the WA Homicide Squad.

So every one of those people who are now past, every one of their family members would be horrified to think the WA Homicide Squad is still still in charge with no oversight, still has discretion on whether or not forensic officers turn up.

And I think that list gives you an idea of how well the homicide Squad's going.

I could go into wrongful convictions as a result of other forensic bungles in Western Australia, but the list is just too long, so I won't continue.

Have I made the point clear?

Yeah, you have, LAMB.

I mean I just feel like it's not coming from us right, Like we're not banging the drumhead and try to make them look bad.

It's about just being proactive.

Amy's family has told us, while disappointed with Waypole's stubborn refusal to change this, they acknowledge and understand the current homicide investigation team was left with the very difficult task of reinvestigating Amy's death following the incredible failure to date, they hope this time Amy's death will be investigated honestly and without any obstructions from those who suffer tunnel vision.

Well, hopefully the situation will change one day.

Certainly, in New South Wales and Queensland scene of crime, officers always attend unnatural and unexpected debts.

Recently, I caught up with a police officer who's also a domestic violent survivor.

And I'm not overstating it when I say her story is incredible.

Now a member of Domestic and Family Violence Command, Sharon Morgan joined QPS almost thirty years ago.

For those of you watching this on YouTube, you'll see a photo of Sharon the day she graduated.

Her uniform is pressed, a beautiful smile on her face.

To the outside world, she's a picture of happiness.

But if you look just a little closer, you'll notice her hat pulled down, her eyes darkly shadowed to hide the bruises.

Most police officers encounter violence almost every day, but nothing Share experienced in a job compared to what she had to put up with at home.

I had threats that he was going to kill me.

I knew that if I left, and I believed that he would carry out those threats.

Sharon opens up to myself and seven years reporter in Brisbane Rosie kingson about their abuser.

So.

I was eighteen when I met him, and I went back and did year twelve because always wanted to be a police officer since I was seven.

He was five years old of me.

I had been raised by my grandparents.

I was living in a home where I was loved and supported and you know, old fashioned upbringing.

And I met him and he was he was a tradesman, he was working, and I was this young girl who really you know, I had glasses and braces and was a bit nerdy, and this older person sort of paid attention to me.

And I've bombed me straight away, was you know, so when I say textbook we talk about in our training, we talk about love bombing, we talk about you know, those first red flags.

I ignored them.

I didn't know that their red flags.

I just thought he was having a bad day.

And my first memory of what I went through with him was we had moved out together very soon after we started dating, within like six months, and the first night we moved into the house, we were unpacking things and I was eighteen.

I had very few things out, a little glory box with just some drinkets that my grandma had given me.

And he started smoking in the house and I asked him not to smoke, and I got king hits matted and fell to the ground.

And that was my first incident where it was, you know, you don't tell me what to do.

I'll do what I want in my house.

I'd never seen that side of him.

I've never seen him angry, and yeah, I sort of peeled myself up off the floor and sort of in shock and frightened, obviously because I'd never experienced anything like that previous, and my grandparents, like, I think my grandfather raised his voice at me once, so I was you know, so yeah, I feeled myself off the ground and sort of had a half baked chop that even said you know, what are you doing?

And then I got spat on, and so yeah, that was my first experience at ev and he continued on for the seven years we were together.

After that, I dare not say anything to my family.

I didn't speak to my grandparents about it.

I was embarrassed, I was ashamed.

I was terrified.

Like I said, I think he I just thought I was having a bad day and to be spat on h you know, for me, that was just it was disgusting more than anything.

And because he was a smoker, all I can remember from that was I could smell the smoke in his spits that was on my face.

So that was But you know, I was so humiliated and ashamed that I didn't say anything to anyone.

And I had an uncle who was very protective of me, and I feared that if I told him.

And it was just the first time, so you know, but as it progressed and as it got worse.

I.

Knew that I probably could have gone to my uncle, but I knew that my uncle probably would have taken things into his own hands and then I'd be responsible for that.

So so yeah, nasty.

I remember, like I'd get flowers.

He would send flowers to my house, like little Teddy bears, all the little things that you see, you know.

Or he had this special nickname and he used to call me this little nickname.

And we didn't have mobile phones back then.

It was something but he would ring my home address and you know, and ring me and say, oh you know, he called me baby doll.

Hey, baby doll, it's me.

You know, let's go out for dinner.

Or he would take me because I used to love going to Sydney Airport and watching the planes take off.

So we'd have an argument, but then to fix it, he would drive me to Sydney Airport so we could watched the planes take off.

So that was that was part of that.

I did the wrong thing.

But I'm better now, I'm good.

I'm doing the right thing.

So just remembering here, many DV victims are blamed and shamed for staying with violent partners.

How frequently would the recycle research?

It was constant.

It was constant for me to the point where, you know, after and after I had our son, I knew the look on his face.

I knew and we talked about coecive control.

I knew that look on his face.

I knew that when he got home from work, if the handbraker was ripped up on the car a particular way, I knew he was in a mood and I was probably going to cop it.

I knew that if he put his coffee cup down a particular way, all those all those behaviors that for me that was my and I know now after years of psychological treatment, that was my body, my body's warning system going, oh, something's going to happen.

So yeah, just I could read him, read him, but I was I equipped myself knowing that something's coming.

I suppose at the time you could wear into disipating danger and you know you were anticipating either feeling scared or something happening.

Was your brain processing it the same way?

Look, it's hard.

I just when I look back, and you know, a lot of that trauma was sort of pushed aside for a while.

The way I look at it, I was constantly in survival mode constantly, and within a couple of years I had two children to hear, so I had you know, there was only thirteen months apart between my first and second child.

So my.

Goal, I guess, every single day was to get through each day and keep those kids safe, or keep me safe so the kids could be safe.

And staying was the safest option at that time.

You know, we hear quite often oh you know, but you stayed or why did you go back?

And but that was my safety option.

That not staying was far more unsafe than staying.

Many of you who have children will recall the vulnerability after having given birth.

So that, combined with Sharon's age, dependence on her partner, and being desperate to do whatever she could to protect her children, made leaving that much more terrifying.

However, that soon changed.

When I was pregnant, I wasn't subjected to as much physical abuse, but certainly the psychological abuse and the absolute interrogation I used to get.

So he'd go to work, I was pregnant, I would stay home and he would come home and what have you done all day?

You know?

Or especially when I was pregnant, I was so tired all the time, first baby, exhausted, but spent my days cleaning the house out, was in a particular way, cooking a nice meal so that when he got home that meal was ready and ready for him.

I only sometimes have the plate thrown against the wall or something like that.

So it was, you know, I was constantly in a state of fear.

I remember I used to shake all the time, and I used to try and hide it.

The physical abe is reduced when I was pregnant with him, but certainly after I had him, it was it was back.

I guess there was lots of physical abuse.

I guess survival is the you know, we hear about flight or fight, and my every single day was about do something nice so he doesn't hurt me.

Do something nice that we're saved.

Do something nice so that or you know, cook a good meal, or make sure that you know, when he walks home the floors are clean, or you know, the vacuum has been done, or the beds made so that I can't get in trouble for not doing anything.

All those things that when you walk into a house to go, oh, this is a clean house.

My house looks scrupulous.

Yeah, it's very clean.

Do you think that now the benefit of hindsight, you might have gone into more of a like a flight mode.

I suppose and considered leaving, had you not obviously realized quite early living together that you were pregnant.

Yeah, I had no option to leave.

Yeah, so s was a big thing for me.

I had no money.

He took my key cards.

I wasn't working.

I was staying at home while I was pregnant and having our child.

He was working.

He earned all the big money.

I you know, even to go and get milk or bread or whatever.

He would bring it home from work so that I didn't have to leave the house.

Leaving was an option in the early days.

It was certainly not.

Did he see your pregnancy as a way of controlling you and having a baby together as as another means of controlling you.

He controlled me from day one.

We know through study and through research that pregnancy it increases risks sometimes and for me it was certainly.

I was always scared that something was going to happen to the child, always terrified.

But you know, he controlled me from day one.

He said, there was no violence, physical violence in your first pregnancy, but in your second pregnancy, was it different?

Yeah?

It was.

And look, there were a few incidents where I was slapped or I was spat on, or you know I had really long hair, I have my hair pulled, But it wasn't the real full on punches and a loss of control that I used to receive prior.

But with my second child, there was an incident that there were several, but the one that stands out for me was he had come home from work early and I was still in my pajamas, and you know, I had a little baby, like my first child, was this really little cute bundle of boy.

He was just this awesome, awesome kid.

Anyway, he still is actually, But he come home early from work and I was in my pajamas and we started arguing about something.

I can't remember the exact details, but we lived in a townhouse and he grabbed me on the stairs and dragged me up the stairs by my hair to the top layer of our unit.

And I was heavily pregnant, stage like big tummy, and dragged me up the stairs abusing.

And you know, we lived in a townhouse.

There were people next door who would have heard that.

There was a little old man who lived on that side, and there was a young couple who lived on this They would have heard it.

Do nothing, but certainly he dragged me out the top of the stairs by my hair and then kicked me down the stairs.

So I tumbled down the stairs, and the whole time I was just baby like.

I can't even remember where my first child was.

I think he was asleep, oh you know, but I just remember stopping on the landing.

So there was one section of stairs, then a landing, then a second section of stairs that took us up the top and I just remember just being dazed, crying, going like You've just kicked me downstairs.

I'm seven months pregnant, Like, what sort of animal are you?

Like you?

This is your child, you know, and yeah, look what you've made me do.

Look what you've made me do now, So it was all on me, and of course I just sort of got up, brushed myself off and went to the bathroom and cried.

And I can't even remember much after that.

I think I went cooked dinner or did something like that, but then an hour later it was like nothing it happened.

It was just I'm like, I just remember feeling, you know, past it, like, look what you've done to me.

You just kicked me downstairs whilst I'm pregnant with your child, you know.

So of course then I was concerned about the baby, and you know, thankfully she was good but horrible.

At what point in the relationship did your thinking start to change in that from it's too unsafe to leave, he'll kill me to I need to leave to keep my baby safe.

We moved again to another area, further isolated away, and we were living on a beautiful property on the waterfront at a nice little seaside location in no northern met South Wales, and the house was surrounded by a big eight foot fence, and when we went looked at it to rent it, I remember the biggest thing when we drove into the backyard area when he closed that gate, it made this really loud bang, and I thought, oh, we're meeting year.

I'm going to be kept you like a prisoner.

And so for me and I couldn't get out because of the water.

If I wanted to flee, I had to get a kayak, and I was never taking my kids on a boat or a paddling boat to try and escape through that back gate.

And I used to think all the time I could run away, but he'd find me, because he used to throw I'll find you and I'll feel you.

So I knew that that gate being the clangy gate, that it was that I was going to be stuck.

But there was a time when we were there that my mom come to visit, and a few days before she had come, or it might have been, I couldn't tell you the exact details, but I'd been assaulted physically, and I had bruises on my ribs and he'd strangled me, and I had all marks on my neck and they looked like love bites the bruises on my neck and so my mom said, hey, bloody, you know you're twenty five years old, but love bites on your neck and I said, oh, and he was at work and I said, they're not love bites, and I said, and I said, you know he's hurting me.

And it was like that pivotal moment where I'm going to seize this opportunity and I'm going to I'm going to go back home with Mum to Queensland, because Mum would come down from my mind and I told her and I said, you know he's hurting me and he's going to kill me.

And I remember just I said to Mom, I'm not coming back.

If I come back to Queensland, can I stay with you until I get on my feet.

I'm not coming back, and at least moving to Queensland put ten twelve hours distance between us.

And so on the day I left, we caught the three o'clock train.

He was working, and I left a note for him on the bench I'm not coming back.

And we got on the train and I thought, oh, idiot, I've left this note, but what if the train doesn't go then I'm stuck.

So I was fearful the whole time too.

We got out of Newcastle and over the border, I honestly thought he was going to hijack the train.

He was going to stop the train and stop this, and so you know, that whole experience of fleeing and leaving him was just I was overwhelmed with you, He's going to come get me.

And I remember my first child, My little boy was just a dream to travel with, but the little girl was just teething, so it was awful.

And I remember a lady on the train coming up and going hey, because Mum was trying to sort of comfort me, and I was I was just terrified something was going to happen.

And this lady came up and said, do you want me to take her for you?

And I was just like this kindness, the people in the world that are kind and she I said, oh, no, it's okay.

Mom said just let her, it's all right.

And there's people on the train all sort of I don't know whether they picked something up, but I was just this all of wreck.

I was just a mess.

And so yeah, once we sort of got into mum's mum's apartment, I felt safe.

Yeah, not for long.

Yeah, because he turned up a couple of days later.

So yeah, and what happened, well, he rang me at my mum's house and kept saying, you know, was that love bombing again.

I'm just I've just got some issues.

I've just got anchy issue.

You know, you get me so righted up and you know, you backchat me and the whole time.

And because I was in Queensland, I had a little bit more courage and I was saying, I don't rile you up, mate, you roll yourself up.

And he said, oh, well, maybe I'll come up and just spend the weekend and we'll have a talk and you know, I'll go to counseling.

And so yeah, he come up and he was just awful.

He was just you know, I remember rre my mum's play still and we were sleeping in the bedroom Mum had sort of set up for.

Me, and we went to bed and we were just laying there and I had the kids in there with this as well, and he was just pinching me, going, you think you're going to get away.

From me, you know, things like that, and I just was so angry at myself and couldn't wait for him to go.

So he left a couple of days later because he had to get back to work, and I just don't come back, like I don't want anything to do with you.

I got myself into college.

I was studying.

I went and saw a Central Link social worker who said, I said, I just want to be a police officer.

I just want to join the police.

I've wanted to since I was seven.

She said, oh, it's funny you should say that, because you know the TAFE is offering the Diploma of Justice.

It closes in two days.

Like, I didn't want to be a single mom.

I didn't want to be on a single um pension.

I didn't want to have to rely on government funding.

It was just something that was ingrained into me with my grandparents upbringing.

You know.

It was about working and service, giving back.

So I marched over to the college and said can I have the forms?

I completed them.

I took them back to Santa Lincoln.

They paid my administration costs.

So a week later or two weeks later, I started studying as a single mum, you know, with these two little kids, and you got them into daycare.

I had a family daycare mom, and I moved out of mums into a like a caravan park, but it was like a like a retirement village because I couldn't afford rants, so I wanted to be independent and look after my kids.

And yeah, it was everything's going great.

And he turned up done again.

It was a Saturday afternoon.

I remember it distinctly.

I was getting kids ready to take them for a swim and the car pools into the driveway.

What are you doing here.

I've had counseling and ye know, I'm better and took him back silly.

So he moved back up to Queensland and I was still studying, and we got a house near the college and he got work.

And then I was coming home from college being accused of sleeping with my classmates.

And we had two brilliant sergeants, two male sergeants, and so I was accused of having an affair with them, and I was accused of In the time that he was away, I had got a job as well, so I was accused of sleeping with the bar manager and sleeping with I went at a golf club, so I was accused of sleeping with all the tradees that used to come in and play golf.

Of an afternoon.

So I was still subjected to that behavior, about that jealousy and that horrendous you know, just control rolling me, the financial abuse, like I took my key card again.

You know, we needed a new washing machine, so we bought me a secondhand one that blew up a week later.

Just you know, when you got two little kids, you have to wash every day.

So all that controlling behavior started again.

Just just I felt trapped again.

Yeah, you said.

There was times where he took you to where he said he was going to bury you.

How many times did that happen?

And can you tell me about one of them?

There was a time where he told me he was going to go bury.

Now, we used to go for lots of drives just to settle the kids, and I guess to get him out of the house and he's, yeah, he just said to me this day we pulled up and he said, you play up, well, you muck up, you'll be in the ground there, and yeah, okay, all right.

Like I never once argued about that because I fear that he would do that.

There was a you know, there was constant threats to kill me.

There was constant threats to kill Yeah, I remember we were at that property on the waterfront, and there had been a big news story about a father who had driven I can't I don't remember the full details.

He had driven off a jetty or into some water and it was a custody dispute and he killed the children and himself.

And I remember we were seeing that.

It was the breaking new story on the bulletin on that night, and we were sitting on the couch having dinner, and I just remember being fixated on the television watching that story, going, man's just killed his kids, And then I sort of looked over and he was just staring at me, going are you watching this?

So it was that consistent intimidation and standover tactics on me.

Yeah I'm watching, you know.

I was twenty two, twenty three, Yeah I'm watching.

So I was constantly frightened that he was going to carry the thread out.

And he strangled you.

I'm guessing many times constantly when he went that far.

I mean, I mean, when you were experiencing it, I suppose was it just trying to survive or just trying to get him to stop, or how did you cope with such horrific violence.

I remember the few times that I do remember.

I don't remember ever passing out, although I could have.

You know, I sort of blocked those things out.

But I do remember a couple of times.

I learned that if I screamed really loudly when he was coming out and he had that look, I knew that I was in for it.

Quite often it was behind closed doors or you know, so that the kids never I don't think the kids ever really saw that.

But I learned that if I screamed really loudly as he was coming at me, he'd sort of back off a little bit.

But there were times where he didn't as well.

I remember just you know, as I said before, I was always frightened, but when it was hands on, or when he was applying his hands to my throat, or even sometimes from behind, that's when I was my most frightened.

I just you know, like I remember one time gasping for air like he's gonna this is I'm going to die, and he had this look his eyes used to you know, you hear that about, you know, his eyes rolling back like a shark, or he had that look in his face.

So it was.

Really I was more frightened of him losing further control and not being able to stop himself more than anything.

Obviously, now that I know about lethality risk and you know, I studied it at YUNI and I've been on a working group for non fatal strangulation.

Holy moly, I'm so lucky to be here.

And how long did it take before you were able to truly escape?

So I left him twice and in his South Wales there was police intervention and an order was issue against him, and I took him back and for the rest of my life, I will kick myself for that.

I moved to Queensland to get away from him, and he came back and we got back together and I got accepted into the police academy I lived in.

So I was in the academy for seven months and I would go home on weekends and be subjected to physical abuse constantly, and he would threaten me or if you tell anyone, they're not going to believe you, because I'll just tell him that you this, this, and this.

The final straw was I'd had another baby at that stage, So at the end of my first year, I had another little bub and she was about eight to ten weeks old.

I'd come home from work or i'd I was trying to get When you're out of your first year, you enroll in back then you do enroll in a project and it was about it was called the Constable Development Project, so that you could go up your pay points and get promoted.

And so I was doing CDP and he was cranky because he thought I was chatting online to someone while I was doing the study.

So I got up and left, went and folded washing, and just to distract him, and we're in it.

We were living in a resort at the time, and he was he was he was in a mood.

He was I could tell he was agitated.

I knew that he was gonna escalate, and so I went in and I had my bob in the bouncer next to me while I was filing washing, and my little girl, she was then five, she foro she was next to me as well.

So I thought, if the kids are close to me, he won't do anything, because he will never do anything about the kids.

And my little fellow was playing cars in his bedroom, so I knew we're we're safe.

So I was folding washing and I was folding his socks and he was sitting across the bed, and he said, yes, saw he don't fold my socks that way, you know, because I was folding them wrong.

And he had a cup of coffee in his hand, and I don't know, come over me, terrible, but I just threw the socks in the basket.

I said, well, folding yourself, folding yourself if you're not happy, and he threw the hot coffee on me.

So I got freshly made hot coffee spilt on me, but more than anything, it splashed on bub who was in the thing.

So I'm screaming because I was burnt.

She's screaming because I'm screaming, and then my other the one says screaming, and I was just this is what my life is like.

This is so I'm trying to rush into the on suite to get under the shower.

I'm thinking that Bubb's burnt like a whole eight weeks old.

And because I'm screaming, obviously I lived in a resort complex.

Someone's obviously hurt and called police and one of my sergeants who I'd worked with, turned up, and my ages had taken off, and the sergeant walked in and sort of looked at me and went, what's going on?

And I'm soaking wet because I've got this coffee.

My hair's all dripping wet.

I'm sobbing, and I'm like, oh, you know, I've just been coffee throat on me.

And he goes, right, this stops now.

And so that was the cats.

I always get too want to tell that story that if not for him, and I was a police officer, so I felt so ashamed that I now had to tell my story to this man who had been a police officer for so long.

He was a sergeant.

But headed it stops now.

You are not going to be treated like this.

So that was He took a little notebook statement and I learned a lot about pleasing that day.

It's all about being sympathetic.

And I don't know that he intended to make me feel that way.

He was just and you know, this is twenty five years ago.

Sorry, the teas are going to mess my makeup.

You know that was twenty five years ago.

We're in a very different era in policing, very different culture, pre Commission of Inquiry, where you didn't, like I said, you didn't look sideways at a sergeant.

It was very respectful.

It was very hierarchical for me, especially as a female, knowing all this stuff that he was threatening me with, and he was going to, you know, make me lose my job, knowing that since I wanted to do that job.

So that's Argent just sort of said to me it now, and it did.

He completed a domestic violence order application and went to court and it was issued straight away, and there was no contact conditions, and he we got you know, he did really cood.

There was no contact.

He wasn't to come to the units, he wasn't to go anywhere, and he's not the school.

And I felt safe because I was living in a complex where the real estate was really good to me, and you know, and then he breached the order and that was only a couple of weeks later, so he got charged for that, and he breached again, and he got charged with that, and then there were several breaches, and then in the end he ended up being put on a suspended sentence.

And then there was another breach and my officer in charge wrote it off and said it wasn't in the public interest to investigate it, and so I stopped reporting I was doing this anymore.

I had my first mobile phone at that time was ringing me up and abusing me, and he'd made complaints to ethical standards to say that I was corrupt, so I was subjected to investigations.

I remember one day turning up to work and one of the inspectors come down and saw me in the day room, said we needed to come upstairs.

You're going to be interviewed.

And I was like interviewed what for?

And oh, there's a complaint that you're doing X Y and zay ring the union union coming with me And I was in there for four hours being interviewed about allegations that he had made that were just frivolous.

But so that impacted me, so I felt that I couldn't even do my job without him making complaints about me.

So yeah, I stopped reporting after that.

My officer in charge told me that it wasn't in public interest.

So I certainly sympathized with victims who have gone through that because I know I've been there.

And incidentally, that's been part of our training, the training package that was delivered a couple of years ago about being empathetic and investigating domestic and family violence appropriately because that's a barrier for victim survivors.

That's certainly you know something that stops us reporting.

So on one hand, you had a sergeant who really saved you that day essentially and really changed the course of your life, and on the other hand, you had an officer in charge who was compounding your trauma.

Absolutely, Yeah, it was quite conflicting.

Actually, the sergeant who turned up to that job, I have no doubt that he saved my life.

Stopping there, this is significant.

I know a lot of stories about officers reported in the media by us as well.

When lives are lost because of police in action, we know this for a variety of reasons, and in Amy's case, negligence was one of them.

However, there are times when it's not onerous at all to do the right thing, and that's what happened here.

While it's hard to count the lives you save, it's incredibly likely that Sharon is right, her life was saved.

It's amazing, isn't it.

It's amazing what a woman and she's now she is now an officer, senior officer in the domestic violence abuse Squad in Queensland.

To want to reiterate that, I mean, it's amazing isn't it.

And look, the thing is, you know, I've said it before, I'll say it again.

The job criteria is pretty simple, isn't it.

To be a police officer.

It's to keep people safe, you know, in the old language, to protect and serve.

And we know most officers do that.

Most officers take huge pride out of that, out of doing that, and in fact, for most officers, I think that's still the prime motivation to get into the police force.

To do good, you know, to help to help people and solve things and make the place a better place and all that.

That's the majority in it, and long may it stay that way.

And you know, God bless every single one of them.

But if they don't, if they don't do that or don't want to do that for whatever reason, it is clear, very clear, crystal clear, they're in the wrong job out, aren't they.

Oh?

Anyway, back to Sharon, my grandma used to say, there's always someone worse off, there's always someone who is in a worse situation.

And in policing we see some of the most horrendous things.

You know, in twenty six years and I've seen some horrendous things.

I've been exposed to some horrendous things.

My lived experience doesn't define who I am, It's just part of my story.

What does define who I am is that experience has made me a better police officer.

I'm more empathetic.

I'm not without fault.

Certainly I could have done things better in my career, and we all have, you know, we all suffle with fatigue and so on.

But the glimmer of hope is that I can now use my lived experience to empower and survivors to educate our police.

To be on that phone line at two am when I've got a senior sergeant who's a DdO ringing me, going, I don't know what to do with this job.

You know, this is my fifth one in two hours.

Or you know, we've got young constables drinking out saying hey, Sarge, I just don't know.

Can you just give me some help on this?

And I'm like, you know, so I can talk to that when I'm doing media.

I'm not doing media because I want accolades or acknowledgment.

It's about empowering and inspiring others, especially police.

So it's up to everyone.

The insidious behavior of dB the responsibility is on everyone to eliminate it from our community.

When do you think the way that domestic violence victims were treated started changing.

I think Coffission of Inquiry was a catalyst for as an organization.

So Sharon here is referring to the Commission of Inquiry into the Queensland Police Services response to Domestic and Family Violence, titled a Call for Change, which took place back in twenty twenty two.

There are so many more resources available.

It's not a taboo subject.

It's taken very seriously.

Now.

I think the most important from my own perspective is that we are offering far better training to our frontline and we are working better with external agencies.

I feel from my perspective, like seeing what the work my team do.

We now work with external agencies directly.

So we have external agencies ringing up our operational support unit and asking us if we can assist them in you know, helping mitigate risk to victim survivors especially.

We've got so much really enhanced training and the training is actually coming through a review now say that the training is going to be a step up on next level better.

We wanted to soundproof the walls here, Sharon.

Helped develop Brisbane's first.

We had some soundproofing put through the walls.

We have a TV so that if there is issues or if the victim survivor needs some calming sounds, we can stream music through there.

We've got toys for children.

We have the ability to dim our lights so that if you know they're disclosing or recalling particularly traumatic events.

We've got blankets for warmth, just to make that victim survivor feel safe, secure and supported.

Her primary aim is to empower others to do essentially what she struggled to do for years.

I used to go and deliver a package called Love Bites, and it's a program in the schools that talk about a young girl who was many years ago physically abused by her partner to the point where she suffered a horrendous injury, brain injury and was wheelchair bound.

And you know, it's her story and it's asolutely horrendous what she went through.

She was seventeen at the time, so she was still at school.

So we you know, we were delivering this train, this package to these school kids, and you know, as a police officer, you can tell who's being impacted by that, and you sort of look in the audience and you can say, oh God, this girl's probably being experiencing something.

So I told them, if you want to get up and leave, you can leave anytime.

And so there was one one particular day where I did the same thing and I had a young girl come up to me.

I get all teary talking about it, and she was grade eleven and she come up to me after I'd present it and said, I'm in a situation I can't get out of.

He's going to kill me.

And I just sort of straight into police mode, and so I rang the DV service provider and I said, I got to get this girl home, like we need to get back to her mom and dad.

Within two days, I had that girl on a plane going back to Victoria.

And so I don't even know if years what's happened to her, if she's safe, but I knew I got a phone call about six months later to say I'm okay.

I made three phone calls DV service provider, her mum and dad, and the local motel to give her accommodation for free, which the DV service paid for later anyway.

And.

I just happened to live right behind the motel so I could keep my eye on overnight, so if something happened, she knew that she had to just come knock on my door.

But it took three phone calls to save that girl.

I have no doubt that she probably would have been another victim later down the track.

But that's something I'm really proud of.

So I'd like to see more work in schools.

He spoke before we started about your mark, A has a meaning.

Tell me about that.

So I obviously have a birthmark on my face, and so it's always so I'm gonna cry again, but it's always been.

That was part of his abuse to me.

So we talk about coercive control.

He used to always say to me, no one's going to want you.

You got that hideous mark on your face, and you know no one's going to want you.

You've got two kids, so you're stuck with me.

And I used to want to go and get it removed, and I still do to this day.

But if I've got a function or something on every morning when I put my makeup on before I go to work, I'm covering that mark because it impacted me so much.

I know that I'm a good police officer.

I know that you know, I'm good at particular things, but as a woman, especially when I'm a woman in a police uniform, quite often we rely on first impressions, right, So for me to not cover my birthmark, I am constantly reminded that no one wants me.

I'm not good enough, no one's going to take me serious.

I'm hideous, You're ugly fat.

You know, it stands out, You've got freckly skin, it stands out like look at it.

You're horrible.

And so I make a concerted effort my days to cover it up because that's the impact of DFF.

I can talk to you every single day about the physical assaults and what it did to me, and you know what I went through, But the most impacting thing for me was the psychological impact.

And that's what coecive controled does.

It's those hidden, non viewed behaviors, that non physical behaviors that really cause you to be intimidated or frightened.

And I was.

I was considant.

I believed it for a very long time that no one's gonna want me, No one's going to want this girl who has At that stage, I had two little kids who were also by the way, who would just anyone would want to love those kids.

But you know I lived with such I believed it, and so that impacted my psychological well being as well.

So it's very angry for a long time.

Come a single mum.

I stayed single ten years before I let anyone in my bubble to come in and be a part of our life, you know.

So even now, like last year, I went saw a plastic surgeon to have it removed, because that's part of the impact of what that behavior twenty years ago to me.

So physical mark almost ended up becoming a reflection of the internal scars you carried from course of control.

Absolutely, and look I can, like I said, I was physically abused quite frequently in that seven years.

And silly like I always say, now, well I can punch the head, you know, being tough.

You know, no one should ever experience that anyway.

But for me, I look back and I go, oh, well, yep, well he punched me so hard.

I had braces.

He punched me so hard that he snapped my braces.

I remember how painful that felt.

But more than anything, the psychological impact on me, the fact that this man who I've had children with, who was supposed to love and care for me, has taken that course of action to make me do what he wants me to do.

That's not love.

That's certainly not love.

That's control, but taking my key heart, telling me I'm going mental, telling me I'm ugly because I've got a birthmark.

It's control, but it's coercive control.

Making me engage in sexual activity because I feel guilty.

That's coercive control.

We've heard it time and time again, but that is what impacted me, and we didn't know about coercive control back then.

As I said, DV has come a very long way, and rightly so, and so it should.

I'm not excited to see where we're going with it, because no one should have to experience that.

But I'm so glad that so much has been done about it.

I don't mind telling you Liam.

When Sharon finished discussing her birthmark, we were all in tears.

The physical scars heal, but the psychological scars that's much harder.

Sharon gets help, though, and her recovery is ongoing.

I was so impacted I was diagnosed with PTSD.

I used to yell a lot, and because I was so frustrated, because I didn't know why I felt so angry all the time.

But thankfully I had a good psychologist who who said, you're angry because you've got PTSD, because you've been subjected to horrendous behavior and treatment for the last however many years.

Yeah, I just love the way how positive she was despite all that, despite all that anguish and emotional turmoil and physical problem.

And it just I'll tell you what, it's from a bloke's perspective, I've got to say, it's very It's you get really angry about that, about hearing how scared she was.

It's it's really it's so it's so disturbing, and but I've got so much admiration for her to not only come out the other side, but to be able to just to do that job.

She's she's you know, she's in the middle of it.

She's a role model.

You couldn't get a better role model, could you?

For in that I mean, when she sits opposite somebody, Alan says, I know how you feel, she's telling the truth.

Yeah, she's fantastic.

I mean, it was about coming back to the vulnerability as well, because Sharon, like Amy, I mean, David Simmons wasn't Amy's first relationship, but she was very young.

She was twenty four.

She'd had another baby with him, and that was one of the things that struck me was the similarities between the domestic violence agitators, which David Simmons for all.

You know, you can't deny that there was domestic violence instigation there with him, and they all I guess, like even the pregnancy right, like wanting to have another baby.

He wanted Amy to have another baby.

Part of that control thing that people talk about coercive control, which obviously isn't against the law in n WA like it his other states.

But they all have that in common, right, that whole way of controlling isolating her, just like Sharon was isolated.

Like it just all rung true to me with so many of them, and even the ones that are older who were killed by their partners, like Alison Baiden Clay, she still met him when she was young.

You know, it's still part of that whole thing, and that coercive control is years in the making basically, so it is.

Yeah, well, I mean cours of control.

It's a modern term for bullying, isn't it.

It's bullying by any other by any other description, but just different degrees of bullying.

But it shouldn't be It shouldn't be that, you know, Amy, for example, people will say, well, it's very unfortunate that she ended up in that relationship, in other words, ended up meeting David Simmons.

Well, yeah, she could have met somebody else.

How you treated through life shouldn't rest on the lottery of who you meet.

It shouldn't be about while there goes an abuse or of just missed him.

You know, I'm lucky enough to get another good one this time.

I mean, it shouldn't be.

It shouldn't be like that out I know that's I know, that's life in many respects, but it shouldn't be a lottery.

Well, as Sharon pointed out right that they don't present like that at the start, right, They ensnare them first.

So David Simmons could be very charming.

You know.

I remember seeing him at the courthouse that time, Lamb, and he seemed almost affable, right, I mean, not that I would ever, I mean, I know what he is, right, not for you, but I mean, well he didn't know was a reporter, so he I mean, he did figure it out.

Eventually.

But like the whole thing is the true colors come out after the fact and they present as what Amy would have liked.

You know, he would have presented to her what she liked in a man until he showed history of colors.

And then there is this optimism.

I guess that you can a youthful optimism, I think, or if they're a kids involved, that whole wanting to try to make it work anyway, you know, not giving up on them until you have no choice.

And then obviously it is also the threat to the children.

You know that that also came into it, particularly with Sharon, that whole you know, he would threaten the children or it would be this whole problem that it seemed like the safest thing to do was stay until eventually you realize that actually it's not.

Yeah, well, I mean we know tragically Amy's future was snuffed out well and truly, but what's what's what's what's Sharon's future?

Well, you know, Sharon and I can understand this was very cynical, right, but I wouldn't never meet anyone, That's what she thought.

And I didn't want to be involved with anyone.

I didn't want another man in my life because I didn't trust that someone was going to treat me how I expected or shouldn't be treated.

But certainly I was like, Y, I got good one.

I no longer have a not in my stomach every day.

I no longer wake up going what am I going to be subjected to today?

And so good that Sharon has come out the other side.

But look, before we go, we just wanted to reach out to anyone in an abusive relationship.

Recently, we posted a real to social media discussing the domestic violence in Amy's relationship leading up to Amy's death.

The response was overwhelming.

Some of you came back to us with stories of your own abuse, and as with Sharon's story, they were incredibly distressing.

I've got to say what we hope, though, is, having listened to Sharon's story, that anyone in this situation seeks assistance and engages in a safe exit strategy.

As you heard, sometimes have to try more than once.

You do, and as Sharon also alluded to, you have to report it.

You have to steal yourself in some way, shape or form and do your best to report it.

Now.

Thank you so much.

Stay safe everyone.

M HM, So listen you see so this we would know the no see kill me?

Okay?

Until if you knew Amy and have information, any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you.

Just email us at The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au.

That's s E V E N.

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Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett, Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blanford, and special thanks to Brian Seymour and Jessica Evanson.

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