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A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationships am bags packed car, running, her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.

Panic.

Amy is dead, sir By Amy's Dead?

Eight Confusion World.

About five minutes they sit n' to suicide.

One hundred percent.

This is emersing.

What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

The Truth About Amy.

Live from Perth.

This is seven years with Susanna Carr and regarded good Evening.

The death of a young perf mother found with a gunshot wound in her Serpentine home has halted her family for more than a decade.

Amy Wensley's death was initially ruled a suicide, but doubts have always remained.

And rightly so, doubts are plenty.

Welcome to our first bonus episode of the Truth About Amy.

I'm Liam Bartat.

And I'm Alison Sandy.

We'll be publishing these each and every time we have some news to report on the case.

And the meeting between Amy Wensley's family and WA Attorney General Tony Booty certainly meets that criteria.

Today, finally fresh hope in their fight for justice over their daughter's death, sitting down face to face with the Attorney General for the first time.

No one has had the time to sit down more they didn't want to have the time to sit down with us and missing to us and our concerns.

A twenty twenty one inquest delivered an open finding, meaning it couldn't be determined whether Miss Wensley's death was a suicide, homicide, or an accident.

That's despite multiple experts concluding Amy couldn't possibly have.

Killed herself the evidence I gained from that room, it was obvious to me that she didn't shoot herself.

Her daughters are going through this every single day as well, and no one answers to It's not just us, it's them as well.

I can tell you.

Police have reopened the investigation into Amy Wensley's death.

They're conducting a thorough review and reassessing all available evidence.

This is an excerpt of the news story, which aired on seven six pm BO Looking then on the thirtieth of June.

It's another waiting game.

We'll have more of that interview with Nancy and Rex soon, but just a reminder of how it came about.

Amy's aunts.

Anna Davy sent various emails requesting a meeting with doctor Booty.

Dear doctor Booty, I wrote you on the third of June twenty twenty five, and I'm hoping you were able to take the time to consider my request to meet with me and discuss my niece's case.

It would be very much appreciated if you could confirm with me one way or the other, if you were willing to speak with me.

There are no expectations should you agree to meet with us.

We would just appreciate being granted the opportunity to be able to tell you about Amy directly, rather than you making your mind up based on advice from advisors, stakeholders or media articles.

I hope to hear from you soon.

Kind regards and a Davy Now.

Her correspondence was prompted by a breakthrough in the court Ne Anderson case after we featured it in this podcast, and her family met with Queensland Attorney General Deb Frecklington.

This morning, we had a phone call from Dep Frecklington and she has told us that she has used her powers to instruct the coroner to hold an inquest into Courtney's case.

And you'll recall Courtney's death, like Amy's, as we discussed, was ruled suicide under very suspicious circumstances.

On April one last year, Courtney's boyfriend, Ashley Campbell, was at the wheel of the Toyota high Lux traveling south on the Bruce Highway near Gladstone.

He told police Courtney opened the door while the vehicle was traveling eighty kilometers an hour.

Campbell claimed they'd been fighting all day and we're talking it out when Courtney suddenly jumped to her death.

We contacted Frecklington's office about how they've appeared to be a significant amount of conjecture over who supported the scenario offered by Ashley Campbell, and just a week later, Al I understand you and the seven News team in Brisbane met with her at her office where she told you exclusively that she was ordering an inquest.

Correct, Liam, it was myself.

Veteran journalist and presenter Katrina Blowers and our expert Camermon Mitch.

The interview took place at one.

William Street, Brisbane, or as the locals call it, one Big Willie.

It's where all.

The ministerial offices are as well as the Premiers and just across the road from Parliament House.

As you can imagine, there's a bit of security there, but you know what it's like in Queensland, we're pretty laid back.

I wouldn't have if the idea on me because I was at a function before this that I've been here before.

So what's your ordering, Katrina Kaight.

Before the meeting, we caught up with the AG's Chief of Staff Ben Murphy and senior media advisor Rebecca Nardi.

Hello.

As you know, Ben used to work in the Brisbane newsroom with us.

Thank you, I addressed up for your.

Hell before catching up with Deb Frecklington.

Hello, how are you going?

Thank you so much for your interest in all of this and what you're doing.

Oh, thank you.

I don't mind saying it's very different from the reception we've received in w A to date.

It's like the difference between the West Wing and House of Cards.

I was just saying that a lot of the time, I find like you can treat you like your some sort of villain or something in it, but when people actually get it like yourself, it's just so refreshing.

Oh that's good.

Well, hopefully, hopefully we are refreshing in this job because we've we've had some stories from the past.

Just for some background, Liberal National Party one government here in Queensland on the twenty sixth of October last year.

So Deb Brecklington has only been in the role a short time.

Queensland is traditionally a labor state.

The party has been in power for thirty of the past forty years, but for a brief term in government under Campbell Newman from twenty twelve to twenty fifteen and Rob Borbidge from nineteen ninety six to nineteen ninety eight.

And maybe that's part of the reason Deb Frecklington seems so real.

There's no arrogance, she remains compassionate.

Well like all of these stories, I mean, you know, the undeniably tragic.

When I became the Attorney General, many of these matters come across my desk, and so when Courtney's story became public, I could say, if I could say it that way, and some family members and in fact friends actually wrote to me in this role a couple of months ago, and you know, we had a look at it and then I actually met with the family.

So after meeting with them and I had access to that more information from the family, I was persuaded to say, look, let's just get to work.

Let's not put this family through any more pain.

And that's why I've instructed the coroner to have an investigation into Courtney's death.

Can you explain to us what hoops needed to be jumped through in order to get.

Us to where we are?

Basically, what the process is.

A family of a loved one can apply to the coroner to investigate a death.

There is a normal process which many people go through.

You know, they apply to the coroner.

It can take months and months, over six months at times for the coroners to review that information and then they can order an inquest or they can say there's nothing more to be done in this matter.

That the Attorney General has in Queensland is a really big power which is enabling me to make the decision based on information provided to me, to order the coroner to start the inquest immediately.

And that's not a power that I take lightly.

You know, I was very persuaded by Courtney's parents and loved ones because there is that extra information there, and it is important that the coroner gets to work, has a look at this information and hopefully get justice for Courtney.

Clearly, the Attorney General and her staff were open minded going into this meeting with the family, which seemed to make all the difference.

That just so undeniably passionate about the cause of Courtney's passing and the circumstances surrounding that really did persuade me in considering this matter further.

Like I said, I didn't take lightly.

I actually came back, I spoke to my office and we worked through the processes.

And like I say, it's not a decision I can make lightly, nor is it one that I should take lightly.

And so after considering, you know, the new information that was provided to me, I couldn't not act.

And I also wanted to ensure that the family didn't have to go through any more pain of the application process to the coroner going through all of that, when I can make the decision, which is what I've done, and that's why this inquest has been ordered.

Something I discovered while there, Lamb is Devricklington subscribes to true crime podcasts.

Absolutely a massive fan of true crime and thank you for highlighting Courtney's story as well, Allison.

But the other thing is, so I drive a lot, so I spend hours in the car and that's what I listened to is true crime and come podcasts.

So you know, it's Amy's story and the way you're bringing it to light for people like me sitting in a car driving, it's fascinating.

It must be.

To the lady vanish it.

Yes, I'm a coroner in that your voice.

Of of course, anyone who's ever in the office has been that podcast.

I can sure it went for five years.

It did.

It got for a long time.

One question that it must be amazing to actually be becaud You probably listen to it and get frustrated like all the other Yes, actually be in a position to help.

How does that feel?

Well, it's an honor really to be able to help.

And you know, I know I keep saying it, but it's just not something that I take lightly, particularly in Courtney's case.

I'm just really pleased I have met the family and I'm just really pleased that I've been able to assist in this regard.

Now, as we saw with Amy's case, it can take some time for the inquest to actually happen, but fortunately in Courtney's case, now that the Attorney General is directly involved, it won't experience the same kinds of delays.

While a date is yet to be determined, it will happen next year.

That will enable the coroner to be able to compel witnesses seek expert advice into not only the circumstances surrounding but information that has come to light.

They'll have the investigative powers into the matter and hopefully that justice will be there for Courtney, but also maybe that her family are able to rest easier at night having an outcome of this investigation.

We didn't get to catch up with Doctor Booty after its meeting with Amy's family and didn't push it because of the ongoing investigation ahead of the updated brief of evidence being sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

However, should the family need his help if the DPP decides not to prosecute, hopefully doctor Booty will show the same level of care and consideration as Frecklington, because the laws in WA are not dissimilar to those in Queensland.

Yes, it's very interesting, isn't it.

I love what you're saying, making the point about Deb Frecklington and the office more importantly being open minded.

It's so so so important, isn't it in the pursuit of justice generally, but also the way these officers work, the way referrals come and go through them, and just that compassion to meet the family do the right thing.

No downside.

It's the Attorney General doing their job in the interests of the people who pay them for that role.

It's marvelous.

I think you've made that point really well.

So from what you're saying about the similarities of the law, let's just go back to that because according to the WA Coroners Act of nineteen ninety six, under Section twenty two, Part one, Subsection D, the Attorney General has the authority to direct a coroner to hold an inquest full stop.

Under Section fifty two, Part three, subsection C and D.

A new inquest can be called if quoting it is desirable because of new facts or evidence, and the findings are again quote against the evidence or the weight of evidence.

Now that's a hugely wide ambit.

Yeah, but remember it's been more than a decade since the DPP has seen the file on Amy Wensley.

Now, that was when then Deputy Coroner Evil and Vicker decided that the evidence did not support suicide and even demonstrated as much.

I can remember at one stage getting down behind the door of my office and saying, it's just not in my view physically possible.

I've got asked, have you ever handled a shotgun?

Well, it just so happened to yes, I had handled a side by side shotgun.

Now, Evelin was of the expectation, of course, that police would be pressed to treat it as a homicide and would closely monitor the key witnesses, but as pointed out at the twenty twenty one inquest, Detective Senior Sergeant McDonald said that would only happen if the case was being treated as a homicide.

Listeners will recall this in episode sixteen.

It was dealt with as a coronial matter and not a criminal matter.

And just a reminder, this is a voice actor.

Of course, we don't have a recording of what was actually said at the inquest.

So Operation juhn D was never meant to be more than a tick inflict exercise which was a concern to Detective Senior Constable and Lahane, and explains why there wasn't much, if any probing of the answers given by David Simmons and Gareth Price.

Exactly al And as we've been saying all along, this is the first time that Waypole, well supposedly the first time, and I'm not being cute about that.

I'm saying it because it's yet to be confirmed to us, but we think it's the first time way Poll is investigating Amy's death as a possible homicide because they are saying they are, but there have been steps and roadbumps in the past anyway.

We'll have more on that later in this episode, but it's worth noting that the police seem to take their time because despite announcing a new team and new investigative team being appointed about halfway through last year when we launched this podcast, very little seems to have been done until April this year, when season two of the podcast got underway, and that was after Anna Amy's aunt appealed to the Crime and Corruption Commission in wa.

Yes, for anyone who's dealt with the Triple C, you'll know they don't give much away, so while they were positive rumblings they were looking into it.

There's no guarantee the Wensley casepar would get the oversight it desperately needs.

Well, we got nowhere with the police minister.

When we asked him about it.

He just made some glib comment about Waypole taking the case very seriously.

Of course they are.

But the minister, the new minister.

My dad refused to be drawn on what made him so short.

You're the new minister, right, No, but have you been briefed on that case, on their death and those earlier inquiries and the mistakes that were made?

Yes?

I had.

So is it your judgment that they did bugger it up?

Jeff, O'll hold my own counsel.

I have my own communications with the commissioner.

Yes, that was an interesting exchange.

I love Jeff Parry's little vernacular there because I think it sums it right up.

They've completely buggered it up.

Unfortunately, the family hasn't been afforded the same courtesy though, because the Commissioner of Police has not spoken to them directly at any stage, and neither has he fronted the media about this investigation, which is another reason that Anna Amy's aunt appealed to the Attorney General to meet with the family, going.

How are you sorry, I'm briefing out there, how you're going?

How are you over here?

Are you guys okay?

To answer a couple questions, yes, yep.

How did it go?

I'm hoping something comes out of it.

Well, I think it will.

Amy's mum, Nancy, attended the meeting with her husband Rick, who spoke to awaiting reporters straight after the meeting.

The family's legal counsel, Peter Ward, was there and Anna attended via video link.

They were given about half an hour with the Attorney General.

It sounds like he wasn't actually able to give you much.

But how important is it for you just to be heard?

A massive, massive because no one has had the time to sit down all they didn't want to have time to sit down with us and listen to us and our concerns and the Attorney General and we're so grateful.

I imagine he wasn't able to give you any commitment as such, was he able to commit to trying to later like once the police reviews.

Done or once all the reports then hopefully with him have another moving and discussed that.

Well, I can't really so much more about that is your hope.

I suppose that you know, having his eyes on it and having his attention and having heard from you directly that you know that will ensure that things are done properly this time.

Yes, yeah, I hope.

So what did he need to hear?

What was it that you were.

That you need them to listen to?

If my should have given out that I have none the response to especially Fancy's sister.

It's been such a long time.

Still felt quite emotional to finally have someone in power pay attention.

Do you keep the impression your overwhel well?

On Thursday, it was in Mark the eleventh to year on Saturday with Day's fifday birthday, so two days later I've got to put this having based on sold break my granddaughter's birthday without them, without her Monday.

It's not just hard Raters a gamily, but her daughters are going through this every single day as well, and they want answers to It's not just us, it's them as well.

Makes every special day a bit so what isn't it?

Yeah?

It does?

But you know her daughter had a really good birthday.

That was the main thing that she joyed herself.

Can I ask you, does her daughter to talk about her man?

Do you the sad day news?

It was two days before her fourth birthday?

So she can't remember her mother's voice, mother's laugh, nothing like that, because she has spent the las let the news with us.

The oldest one can remember goods and pieces.

But it's to say because owner should be here raising her daughters, not us.

Is that why?

You know?

Do you feel the way of responsibility to not let this rest, to make sure you see it through to the very end.

Yes, yes, yeah, And to get it not being suicide, get that taken off the table for her daughters.

Why is it so important?

I don't want them growing up feeling that they're not a committed suicide.

When she didn't, she would never have left them, seems to be the concess.

She wouldn't have put her daughter's birthday present in the boot of her car until her girls we're going to pop some stone bear and then struck them in the car and go and side and do that while they're waiting in the car with birthday.

It doesn't make sense.

Can you articulate how frustrating the process has been then, that it's taken this long and.

It's frustrating because, like kind of said, chills on oom, but she's giving all this information and.

Not any.

Yeah, are you hoping today turns that corner.

I'm hoping and I'm hoping that we have generals support on this.

Okay.

Have they given any targeted time frame of how long they expect the new process to take?

No?

No, you know, unfortunately you've already had to wait eleven years.

I'm just hoping that this investigation is done properly, not biased.

Do you trust the police to be the one reinvestigating?

I suppose you have no choice.

Really, we don't dislike the place, but we just think it's like anything.

It's like a culture up as high and then pretyone bellow too scared.

It's like anywhere.

But that's why the hope is if you have people checking their work one hundred percent, that the police will be crossing every T and dotting every I.

The positive thing.

Yeah, well, that's right, it is a positive Now.

I'm glad they discussed the possibility of everything being checked out because there are quite a few questions that police investigations to date have yet to clarify.

There's quite a long list of questions.

These have been provided to the Attorney General Bianna at their recent meeting, which I thought was a very good move, smart move on Anna's behalf.

Firstly, where did the gun land after Amy was shot?

Was it on her lap?

As Gareth said and has said time and time again repeatedly, stock of the weapon near her feet and muzzle towards her head.

Yes, So Anna said that she wants this clarified when she gets a report back or the police report goes to the DVP.

Now, as we know Liam from our interviews with Professor Tim Mackland and Scott Rhoda, there's absolutely no way the gun could have landed there.

Clearly the gun could not have been discharged in that position, and the biological material, et cetera, and the entry and exit worns being in the way they were in the photographic evidence.

So someone has put that gun there.

The gun did not end up like that, The gun was placed like that.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

There was only one person who had the opportunity to enter that room after Amy went back inside after packing the car, and there's even a witness to that occurring.

Second question, given that blood was found between the barrels, and the four stock.

How did it get there?

Did it run down the barrel while the shotgun was in a vertical position as described by Gareth.

And now if the blood could have only got into that position by running down the outside of the barrels, why was no blood found on the barrels between the four stock and the muzzle?

I mean, does that mean the gun and this is super important, does it mean the gun had to have been wiped?

Police documents show there weren't any fingerprints on the gun, even under laser examination, Lamb, I mean, how.

Is that possible?

We know at least three people handle that gun in the hour immediately before police arrived.

That's on the record, right, that's indisputable Amy obviously, whether by choice or not.

But she took the picture, remember the selfie.

Yep, Gareth who admits to coming in and picking it up, picking it up, and Robert Simmons, the father, he admits to taking the shells out, taking the cartridges out of the shotgun exactly.

But what is the likelihood of absolutely no fingerprints, not even partial, being on that gun.

It's the sort of surface that fingerprints would be easily captured.

So what is the likelihood of the gun being wiped.

Well, well, it has to have been wiped by somebody something.

It has to have been touched.

Right.

If three people have touched that gun and the police found no prince on that weapon at all, somebody somewhere has wh why have they wiped it?

Why has it been why has it been touched?

Because it is a physical impossibility.

This is not Inspectaclesseau's stuff.

This is pretty straightforward.

It's physically impossible for that gun not to have been wiped.

So here's the next question.

Has Wypole consulted an independent expert on this.

Now at the time of the inquest, and police certainly didn't appear to be in any hurry to clarify this after the inquest, which is now four years ago, Liam.

And I still want to know why the father, Robert Simmons, actually unloaded that weapon, walked into that room, saw that scene, decided that he would pick that gun up and unload the weapon.

Why did he even touch that weapon?

That's the other thing.

I mean, he's obviously given excuses, but if we're looking at the forensic facts here, and I think this is something that wa police if they're doing their job properly.

If they are investigating this as a homicide, they need to get an independent expert to clarify this because that would have to be produced to the DPP as an expert witness who could clarify the possibility.

Well, I couldn't agree more.

But why again, why would you pick up that weapon to empty the weapon?

He has he has been on record as saying it was a safety.

Yes, safety right, So that's his reasoning that it was for safety.

But again, why who was going to come in that room?

Who was who was going to touch the weapon?

Full stop?

If you walked into a room and you saw someone in Amy's position physically and half a head was missing.

I hate to be blunt about this, but let's let's just call it like it is.

And there's a gun there, whichever point you want to believe, in whatever position, why would you lean down and pick it up and then crack the weapon and then take cartridges out.

This is not a workplace HSE incident.

This is not an occupation or safety issue.

Why would you touch that gun?

Yeah, and he knew that this was the gun that had been fired too, So if it was a safety thing as to being scared, that somebody's going to come around the corner and shoot you.

You know, that's the gun over there.

But also, and I think this is something that I just still don't understand, how they could, you know, dodge This as being important evidence is why when he had had the call, right, had he come through the door, gone straight for the gun.

He already knew that someone had been shot.

So why would you not be looking for the person who had been shot?

He said, he didn't see amy, But you couldn't get through the door without pushing it to there's something there, right, So why wouldn't you look behind the door to see what's blocking the door?

The impossible?

I think impossible.

That's my personal opinion.

I've seen that, I've seen the room, I've seen the mocked up version of the room.

I've seen both.

I've seen the model and the real thing.

I think it's impossible.

That's my personal in it.

And I think you're a spot on.

I think the quality of that that just that act needs to be explored a heck of a lot further, so, just going a bit deeper before we leave that alone, what was the father was Robert Simmons, pressed on this by the police, because we've already said, you know, supposedly he's the last to touch that weapon before the three police first arrived.

He's given various statements laand but he's never been interrogated, not that anyone's actually been interrogated in this case, but he's never been questioned about that.

They haven't pushed.

It, and I seriously doubt that's happened even now, unless it happened in the past few weeks.

What I do know is David never got his guns back, which means Waypole must still have them unless they've been lost.

Now, a couple of questions we've asked in this podcast before, but which would definitely require clarification when Waypole updates the brief of evidence for the Direct the Republic prosecutions include the following four starters.

What happened to the gray car ki jacket that Robert described being on Amy's head when he first came across her.

She had a jacket over ahead or something over ahead, and I pulled it, just checked to see she was deceased.

I thought it was a jacket, but I a towel a jacket.

I don't know, you know, you're in a panic, and I just lifted what was on her head.

But yes, I thought it was a jacket.

That's consistent to what he said in both of his statements to police made not long after Amy's death and in the lead up to the inquest.

There was a gray or car key jacket over the person's head and up a body.

Yes, yes, but a panic or no panic.

You know, we knew if it was a towel or a jacket.

I mean they are very different.

So either way, what happened to it?

And of course going back to the clothes David Gareth were wearing that night, which given the shooting, chopping of wood, and the padding down of Amy's body looking for a phone, would have had traces of those things on them, which Constable Larry Blandford pointed out in his evidence.

Robertsimmons told me that they were firing the gun all afternoon, the four ten.

And I can back this up by the fact that there was a skeetchucker in the shed and there was broken skeets all down the road.

Clay pigeons, they called them, right, So they lowered them up, flick it out and then shoot it with the four to ten.

They've been using the four ten all afternoon.

They'd been cutting fire, would I believe in the morning.

So forensics say there was nothing on their clothes.

That has to be considered.

The police are saying that forensics didn't pick up any evidence of anything on.

Their clothes, no gunshot residue.

No gunshot residue, no blood, nothing but drops of blood were found on the shoes and it was animal blood, right, So if you dig a little bit deeper, David Simmons had time to change his clothes.

So between the time of the shooting and the time that CCTV vision at the roadhouse happens, there is time, you think for a clothing change.

Oh, it takes me about a minute and a half to change, you know, And I've got standard tracksuit pants and tops that I've got five pairs of each sort of thing, so i could look the same.

But I've got clean clothes on.

There should have been fire wood chips on them, and there are also they should have been gun residue.

From shooting the gun all after night.

From shooting the gun all afternoon.

My theory is it's a break back four ten shotgun.

When you break it, both empty cartridges fire out back at you and then they hit you, they tip upside down.

You would have gun residue on your pants, around your belt line, your chest because most people's hold it to the side and do it.

But that's how you get this residue on you from a breakback.

And following on from that, why was Robert's first instinct to believe that his son had shot Amy?

I mean, his explanation at this was I think fair to say, at best, sketchy.

If someone had killed themselves.

The gun is not two meters over there is it, and they don't.

Pull a towel over their head.

So when I ran outside, I'm thinking, what the you know, my heart was to me.

There was no one else around, and just with my head spinning all that going on at that particular time.

What else do you.

Think other questions the police report to the Director of Public Prosecutions need to address at least as outstanding questions given there's no real explanation.

Roberts said he disarmed the shotgun as a safety precaution.

As we mentioned, well why not disarm all the guns in the room if you're going to talk about safety.

I mean Amy's pink twenty two rifle was also found on the floor not far away from her body.

Yeah, When Gareth suggested going to the main house to call an ambulance, why did David say his dad wasn't there when Roberts says he worked at home all the time.

And then why did David go back to get Amy's phone?

Was the issue with the phone?

Why did he need Amy's phone so badly even in that sort of moment of stress and trauma.

Why was her phone at the forefront of his mind?

And more importantly, why pretend that that phone was his?

Yeah?

Why did Amy pack her passport in her handbag if she was planning to kill herself?

And why would she have killed herself at that time when her daughters were in the backseat of a car running waiting for her, knowing they would be at the mercy of her violent part.

Why not get them to safety?

First?

Great question not to mention positioning the shotgun so you allow the bullet to enter your right temple at a slight downward trajectory, which requires Amy to hold it up and twist her body in contortions that can best be described as near impossible but also very painful.

Yeah, did Waypole ever find the cartridges?

Robert pulled out of the gun, and has anyone spoken to David Simmons' mum, Evelyn Foggerty, about what David has told her and what she's in turn told other people.

And this leads us to the question of whether the new investigation team has utilized the kind of technology which would usually be used in a homicide investigation, like, for instance, the careful and sometimes clandestine monitoring of key witnesses.

And did they listen to the Triple ero recordings of Robert and David Simmons on the day Amy died or merely just read the transcripts.

Basically a probative investigation, how not just one which, like those previously, seeks to dismiss or pass off any evidence which doesn't fit that original suicide theory.

Now to David Simmons, many of you wouldn't be aware, but so far this year there have been four arrest warrants issued on Amy's former partner as he continuously fails to turn up to his court hearings.

The alleged defenses, which are constantly being updated, include reckless driving, possession of drug paraphernalia, possession of a prohibited plant, and disorderly behavior in public.

The only times we're aware he has appeared is when he was in prison already and by video link, or when WA police picked him up and physically took him there.

He scheduled to appear again on fourth or September twenty twenty five, Beyonce, he actually shows though I'm very sleep.

Now, lam.

I also wanted to discuss the biggest criminal trial of this year, Aaron Patterson, the mushroom killer from Morewell, Victoria.

This has dominated headlines for months now and I'm sure our listeners are well briefed on the case, but just in case, let's set the scene.

Morewell is a small town in Gippsland in the States southeast and has a population of less than fifteen thousand people.

Yeah, for two months the town was like Noosa in the school holidays, wasn't it.

Every motel was full, probably all the camping grounds too.

And that was just by the journalists and the influences on the ground.

Anyone with a B and B would have made a Fortunebably, the biggest winner out of it was the bloke who sold coffee at the cafe near the courthouse.

Not bad coffee too, just by the vite.

But that gives you an idea of just how big that case was.

Now here's a snippet of the story on seven Sunrise, the day after.

Aaron Patterson has spent her first night in prison as a convicted mass murderer after a jury found her guilty of three counts of murder and one count of attempted murder over a lethal lunch in twenty twenty three where she served beef Wellington containing deathcat mushrooms.

For more, let's bringing out experts former Victorian homicide detective Charlie Berzina and criminal defense lawyer Ruth Parker.

Mourning to both of you.

Will start with you, Charlie, what was your reaction to the verdict?

A middle aged mum living in country Victoria now a mass murderer.

Good morning, guys.

Look, I was a bit surprised.

I thought it was such a complex case in the eight week trial that it went ate and a bit so.

I think I was expecting possibly a hung jury given the complexity of it.

But I think the jury really applied themselves and come back with a true verdict, and I think it's a testament to the work that the homicide squad people have done.

Ruth This was extremely interesting for the world this case alone, but for the legal world, no doubt, really interesting to see some of the twists and turns, particularly when her legal team put her on the stand Aaron Patterson, to give her own evidence.

Were you surprised by that?

Not really, Chervo, because unfortunately they were put in a position where she had clearly lied to police during her record of interview, and the only way that they were going to get her version across, or the version that the defense were promoting, was to call her and to put these things to her.

But it must have been a terribly stressful situation.

Calling your own client is always deeply uncomfortable.

She was in the witness box for a number of days, but unfortunately, I think that that was the only.

Choice that they had.

So, Ruth, do you think that her case, there's some conflicting reports that she was combative and that she was convincing on the stand.

Look, it's hard to know, because ultimately they need to be satisfied of the prosecution case beyond a reasonable doubt.

But what the defense were confronted with was a number of lies in her record of interview, including the fact that she didn't own a food dehydrator.

The dehydrator that there was then recovered from the tip after they found a manual for a food dehydrator in her house.

There are also some issues in relation to other comments she'd made, including to the media on Facebook.

So ultimately, I think it was a choice that they had to make and they made the right one.

But criminal trials are living things and you can never predict the outcome.

Charlie, we're seeing some of the evidence come through CCTV.

We're also seeing that the actual beef Wellington itself was examined.

We now know that we can see some of that evidence coming through.

How important was it for detectives, I guess to have their ducks in a row.

Well, it's extremely important because they only get one bit it at the cherry, and they had the game with the best case possible.

And this really involved a lot of medical evidence, toxicology evidence, so forth and so on in relation to and witnesses also, so you go where the evidence takes you.

And we've got electronic evidence.

We saw them bring in the dog from the Federal police to look for electronic devices.

We've got the phones, etc.

Etc.

So ultimately, very very significant because the police know the high burden to prove a case beyond reasonable doubts, and this was one of the massive cases, and ultimately they're responsible to the family and to the community of Victoria to give them answers and bring someone to justice.

Ruth as a defense lawyer, when did you think she's gone for?

Was it the different color plates?

Was that the line?

Because there are a.

Lot of lies, you know, brought up in the court.

When did you think, oh, she's gone here?

Well, look, I don't think I ever really formed that view until the verdict, but I thought that there were real issues with the lies, particularly around the food dehydrator.

I think that there were lots of different conflicting versions.

But I agree with Charlie, which was that after a few days, I thought that there was a real prospect of a hung jury because the other issue that the prosecution have was motive, and there wasn't really a powerful motive in this case.

So it was a very unusual case in the sense that there were lots of conflicting accounts, There were lies told by the accused, and then there was a lack of motive.

So this really could have gone either way.

But ultimately the jury was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt on the evidence collected that she was guilty of murder on three accounts and attempted murder on another.

And so we really haven't seen a case like this before.

It's very likely Pattison will appeal.

But everyone I spoke to covering the trial Liam was adamant she was guilty.

However, as we've heard, many were dubious it would lead to a conviction.

I've covered a lot of court cases, liamb and it's fair to say Australian juries as a whole appear to be pretty conservative.

Chris Dawson, Jared baden Clay and now Aaron Patterson all had one thing in common.

They weren't likable.

Yes, they all certainly lacked a bit of charisma, didn't they?

Those people you just mentioned.

Not a lot of riz there between the three of them.

Although there have been cases.

I mean, look the last one in Morewell with a morewell jury, Greg Domisevitch in the Jadeen Leski case.

Oh yes, he got the not guilty verdict and he didn't appear very likable on camera too.

So there have been exceptions, but I agree with you there's sort of the vibe wasn't great, was it?

What section of the constitution has been breached?

Yes, the castle was right.

There is such a thing as the vibe Liam.

There is no one section.

It's just the vibe of the thing.

This is what one of our reporters on the scene, Tigan Dowling, had to say about it.

Now, the jury completely thought that she was a liar.

Despite taking to the stand and given quiet, compelling evidence, they saw straight through her.

They found her guilty of the three charges as well as that attempted murder charge too.

It's fascinating, isn't it.

Look I understand what you're saying, because if David Simmons is charged, if regardless of whether he takes the stand, the jury will get an impression of the person he is and be able to consider whether that he's capable or was capable of killing Amy, and they'll take into account lots of things like his love of guns hunting, his general demeanor, his reputation.

His entire character exactly.

The prosecution would undoubtedly discuss the domestic violence history.

For instance, the photo that we found with Amy, which was sent to her and Erin that the police had somehow lost.

That was the one with her neck covered in bruises, allegedly after he tried to strangle her.

Then there's David attempting to get Amy's pink phone, as we've mentioned before, in him denying that despite the original police constables saying no, no, that's exactly what happened.

So the jury will have to decide what they believe there.

Yeah, then there's his alcohol problem, the fact Amy was attempting to leave him.

And suing him for damages too.

Well, remember that Amy was suing David following the car accident they had less than a year earlier, so they'll be looking, obviously in that sense for motive.

Like the Patterson case, this case is complex, you know, which is why the attention to detail and expertise, for instance, independent analysts who can do a risk assessment on and Amy and all the circumstances surrounding her death.

I mean all that is very very important as well as of course his drug use and his alcohol abuse.

Remember what his father Roberts said at the inquest.

Well, when someone gets a beer out at ten o'clock in the morning.

He blamed himself because David suddenly had so much more expendable income as he was now living rent free.

I didn't realize by giving them that house that I'd actually made two mistakes.

Suddenly I'd given them a whole heap more cashed by drugs and alcohol because they're not paying any rent.

So suddenly, if you've got this surplus, I realized looking back, doing the right thing ended up probably being the wrong thing.

Yeah, and an independent clinical psychologist could provide evidence on the use of the antidepressants, as Amy was still taking hers.

We know that, but David suddenly came off his.

Now I've got a pretty basic understanding of antidepressants.

But it's very interesting when you compare it to the Courtney Anderson case that we've been discussing, where there were claims supported by authorities, that she had undiagnosed mental health issues, implying that that was why she jumped from a speeding carl.

So should it go to trial, the prosecution would surely want to address what the combination of methamphetamine and alcohol, as well as that sudden stoppage of antidepressant medication, would have on David Simmons' mental state, and of course assess his propensity for violence, as well as means and opportunity which we've discussed at length during this podcast.

That's a pretty big grab bag.

Yeah, the selfie will be discussed, of course, and why was once considered evidence of suicide.

I stood don't get that limb Waypole initially used it to justify their case for suicide, despite it happening about twelve minutes prior to Amy's call with Nancy.

The credibility of the witnesses too, will also be a major determining factor I think for a jury, I will it always is for a jury, OL.

I mean, sure give more weight to the contradictions in statements and testimony made by David and Gareth and Josh than the detectives certainly did.

And Robert, who don't forget said in that triple ero phone call, I.

Think it must have been my son.

He's not here.

My son made the mistake.

But she's been shot in the head and she's dead.

Made a mistake.

Yeah, what does it take to say that as a father?

I know?

Right?

Anyway, Before we finish up, OL, I just want to raise one more point in relation to what Detective Inspector Gregory MacDonald said at the inquest.

You'll recall he was the one who defended Operation Jundee or Jundee whatever it was, which is nothing short of a joke.

I think that's the understatement.

That was the major crime investigation that started the day after Amy died, and as we've discussed at length on this podcast, I think it's pretty safe to say the conclusion is that it was preordained, predetermined and should be an embarrassment professionally for all the police who were involved in it.

But the internal police review interestingly enough, so this is not us.

This is an independent look at JUNDI made four criticisms, and we've mentioned these before, including the lack of consideration for covert opportunities, to which he replied Sergeant MacDonald, I would.

Say that in order to make that approach, I would have had to make the determination that I considered that it was not a suicide and it was a homicide.

So if I were to look at potentially.

Telephone intercepts or rather you know, other projects that might provide other evidence, I.

Would have had to have been of the opinion that the death was suspicious.

That was not my opinion at the time.

I believed it was suicide.

My point is, if this new investigation didn't pursue these opportunities.

Then the police minister Rhese Whitby is wrong about Waypole taking this case seriously, because that certainly was not serious.

Remember ol what the first coroner, evil and Vickers said when she pulled the inquest.

It was just the fact that she didn't pull the trigger herself.

So I pulled it sent it to the DPP because that's what the Act required me to do, hoping that if it was from the DPP, the police may have different investigative pathways for them that were not part of what I needed to be doing.

Yeah, then they're still not treating Amy's case as a homicide, agreed.

Liam McDonald said it himself at the inquest.

So if they haven't done this in relation to Gareth, Joshua, David Simmons, and of course David's parents Robert and Evelyn, they always tell someone right, then this was just another ruse to look like they're taking it seriously.

And yes, everything crossed, but we'll find out soon enough.

El sure will, Thanks Liam, and.

If we have updated information, you'll hear about it in another episode of the Truth About Amy.

H listener U s.

So desten.

Re with the Now.

At Me.

If you knew Amy and have information any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you.

Just email us at the Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot Au.

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