[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Autism Helper Podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Today we are going to talk about what to do during situations of work refusal.

[SPEAKER_00]: If your student is just refusing to do work and you're like, I don't really know what to do next.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into that.

[SPEAKER_00]: What should we do?

[SPEAKER_00]: But let's start off with what not to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like back in the day, like, a long time ago, like maybe when I first started teaching, there was like discussions of like, should we do like hand over hand compliance?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like pick up the child's hand and force them to do the puzzle, force them to do the work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is exactly what we are not going to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: We know better.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We we know more.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason to ever touch a child unless there's a safety risk or unless you're an OT and there's some kind of specific tool or thing that we're doing OT related.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not an OT, so I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But we don't need to do a hand over hand compliance because no need to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not worth it for a puzzler or a work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: In a work refusal situation, we've got to be a little bit of a detective.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to figure out why.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is he refusing to do the work?

[SPEAKER_00]: is he refusing to do the work because he can't do the work, meaning it's too hard, or because he doesn't want to do the work.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's not motivated.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go back to one of my favorite frameworks, and maybe you've heard me talk about this before.

[SPEAKER_00]: I talk about this a ton when I do presentations.

[SPEAKER_00]: The can't do or won't do framework.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've actually talked about this on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had to look all the way back.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was episode 163.

[SPEAKER_00]: Can't do or won't do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Can't do our won't do looks at why problem behavior or why a mismatch of expectations is happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the can't do our won't do our framework.

[SPEAKER_00]: It identifies problem behaviors either being a can't do or a won't do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Can't do means the work is too hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to either teach new skills or change the expectation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Won't do means that there's no motivation [SPEAKER_00]: or not enough motivation or reinforcement, and we need to adjust the reinforcer.

[SPEAKER_00]: So in work refusal, there's something going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because every choice we make, you, me, your kids, our students, is shaped by two things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Our skills and ability to perform the action, and our motivation to act or not act on the particular options.

[SPEAKER_00]: we need both.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need the skills and we need the motivation.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I go get a coffee at Starbucks, I have both the skills and the motivation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have the skills to go up to the cashier and order my coffee and I have the motivation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want coffee.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now if I didn't have the motivation, I wouldn't go.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if I didn't have the skills, if I couldn't walk, or I didn't have the skills to communicate, I wouldn't be doing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we need both.

[SPEAKER_00]: So when work reviews, we got to figure out what's going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: If they can't do the work, if it's too hard, we can't just throw reinforcement at the issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, let's put a token boarder.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's offer some more reinforcements because it's not going to change the fact of the missing skills.

[SPEAKER_00]: And on the reverse, if they have the skills, [SPEAKER_00]: But they don't want to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to make sure we're adjusting the reinforcer.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to figure out what is going on, and then we can really solve this problem for real.

[SPEAKER_00]: And hand over hand compliance doesn't do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we're avoiding that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we want to look at first if it's a can't do.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's a can't do, we want to look at the skill.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say you're giving the child a work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're like, well, they can do the work tasks, Sasha.

[SPEAKER_00]: They know how to match colors to items.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's matching, maybe the color red to different red items.

[SPEAKER_00]: They know how to match that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not just that.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's other skills involved in this work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's also work endurance or attention span.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's also response and ambition or impulse control.

[SPEAKER_00]: They have to ignore other things going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's also task initiation that have to start the task.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not just the skill of matching colors.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's other executive functions involved in completing that work task that they have to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then let's look at reinforcement.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, with this matching color work task, let's say they picked iPad from a choice menu.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, well, they like the iPad.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they're motivated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe they have a kind of sick of the iPad.

[SPEAKER_00]: They get the iPad every day and the games that you have in the iPad are kind of boring.

[SPEAKER_00]: So although they picked the iPad from the choice menu and actually no longer works as a reinforcer.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got a dig in a little bit more beyond just this casual like, well yeah, he can do the work he's done it before and like yeah, he picked it from a choice menu or like I'm offering something I know he likes because we can be incorrect on these quick assumptions.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're like, okay, dang, what should I do then?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do I figure out if it's a can't do or a won't do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Some of you aren't gonna like my answer.

[SPEAKER_00]: My answer here is take a little bit of data.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I know, take a little bit of data.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what you're going to do is you're going to do a little test.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say we have, let's stick with this idea this work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got this color work task.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give this color work task to Johnny.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to be like, OK, Johnny, I've got this color work task for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can do the whole thing, I'm going to offer you high powered reinforcer insert here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Think of what Johnny's most favorite, biggest, best, baddest, high-powered reinforcer could be.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something you don't normally give.

[SPEAKER_00]: Time on YouTube, extra recess, special treat.

[SPEAKER_00]: Candy, whatever it could be, something awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Line leader, lunch with teacher.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something really, really good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's gonna get it immediately.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Johnny, if you can do this whole color matching work task, [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get, be line leader.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get time on YouTube.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get three slinkies.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get to play slime.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you can get this colored work test done in 10 minutes, that's at the timer.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is all your data is.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that complicated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then go.

[SPEAKER_00]: So see if he does it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And compare it to how long it took him to do the first time.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if originally he just couldn't didn't do the work task at all, and now all of a sudden, he can do that work task in five minutes.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know it's a motivation issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know he can do the skills.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know it's a won't do.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if he sat there and is like, no, if I still can't do it, I still am not doing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hate this work task, throws it on the ground or after 10 minutes, maybe only does two of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know it's a skill issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this test is very telling, because even one presented with this high-powered reinforcer, can't he do it or not?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're not saying we're gonna give this high-powered reinforcer every time, but it's gonna point us in the right direction of a solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now you know if it's a can't do or won't do, so let's talk about what to do in each scenario.

[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a can't do, if he's missing the skills, [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we got to step back and figure out what's going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because as we said, it's not just the color matching.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's also work endurance and attention span.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he can do the color matching, but you're expecting him to sit for too long.

[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe we need to trial and error some things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's too long for him to sit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's too many tasks included.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he needs some break spiltin.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's task initiation, and you need to get things started for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's some planning issues, and you need to set up the task for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's some things to trial in there, because you're expecting something with the expectations and the skills is off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it might not be the core academic, it might be some of the executive functions around the academic.

[SPEAKER_00]: So look at both and try some different things.

[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a won't do, if the won't do is the issue, then we need to figure out what is actually a reinforcer.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know he always asks for iPad.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know it seems like praise is a reinforcer, but it's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then we have to do some reinforcer assessments, some trial and error.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to adjust the reinforcer.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to give him a why.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're like, well, Sasha, he doesn't need a ray of force.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or he should just want to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you should just want to come to work without a paycheck.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need a Y.

And praise, good grades, peer approval, work completion is not a reinforcer for every child.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got to figure out what is a reinforcer for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have to get creative with a lot of kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have done your job of establishing rapport, which we talked about a few weeks ago, we can be, we do a lot better at figuring out what reinforces our for our kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: So for work refusal, we are using our can't do won't do framework.

[SPEAKER_00]: Doing that test to figure out if it's a can't do or won't do, which puts us in the position to know what to do next.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to do hand over hand compliance.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to wait them out.

[SPEAKER_00]: We now have action steps at each step of the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we know what to do to support our kids who are in that situation of work refusal.