[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Autism Helper Podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm really looking forward to sharing this interview with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You may recognize my next guest from her role on Netflix's Love on the Spectrum or her very popular social media pages.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm chatting with Caitlin Partlo, she is an amazing RBT that works for Project Hope.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's really popular on Instagram and Tiktok and I love what actionable strategies she shares.

[SPEAKER_01]: She shares real-world ideas that you can use right away.

[SPEAKER_01]: She has a new book coming out called Life on the Bridge that she will share a little bit about later in this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And today we are chatting about a really important topic.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about the difference between a skilled deficit and a capacity limit.

[SPEAKER_01]: This plays a big role when creating IP goals, when determining what next skills to work on, and it's something that has to be top of mind when we are making these important decisions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Katelyn has a lot of great insight into this topic.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's go ahead and hear from Katelyn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Katelyn, thank you so much for joining me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am really excited about this topic you suggested because this is something I think about a lot and I can't wait to hear some of your kind of expertise and advice on this subject.

[SPEAKER_01]: So today we're going to talk about skilled deficits versus capacity limits and this can be a little bit challenging and complex sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of to start us off, how do you define the difference really between something that's a skilled deficit and something that's a capacity limit?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's gonna sound like I'm reading it as because I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: This question is really important to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wrote a sentence that I think kind of illustrates my thoughts on this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote, when addressing a skill deficit, the terminal outcome is reasonably within reach.

[SPEAKER_00]: With skill deficits, the person makes incremental progress at a speed that justifies the goal and the resources needed for its pursuit.

[SPEAKER_00]: love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then when we think about capacity limits, where does that play a role in?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that it kind of speaks for both just in terms of, I mean, like I said, if we're working on these things for years and years and years and we're taking all these resources to do so and progress isn't being made.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's fair to say that that's at least a strong indication of a capacity limit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it doesn't mean that completely, but I think it's a definitely a [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I think so too, and I like that you brought up that idea and like so many years and so many resources.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you see that in your practice, but you know, I've definitely met students that have been working in the same goal for so long and I'm like, why are we still working on this.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are some common ideas and these can maybe get misunderstood as we were just saying some common examples.

[SPEAKER_01]: of maybe a skilled deficit of something that is a skilled deficit that may be mistaken for that capacity limit and then actually it's the reverse we're not giving our kids those high expectations and that rigor.

[SPEAKER_00]: The hill I will die on for this topic every time is leisure skills.

[SPEAKER_00]: Always people are saying, well, my person only likes playing in this sort of way or they only like this topic or they only like this item and they won't do anything else.

[SPEAKER_00]: And every time I present something else, they get really upset, they have a meltdown, they push it away, they refuse it and, you know, therefore this person only likes this one thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's [SPEAKER_00]: a really big disservice for people who by nature of their very disability are going to have some restricted and repetitive behavior and interests.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we are kind of contributing to making their world smaller, we're not doing them any favors.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It becomes a vicious cycle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we exposed to less things.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of interested in less things.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be interested in something if you're never exposed to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, that's correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what advice you give to like a teacher or parent?

[SPEAKER_01]: Her like, oh my god, you're explaining my student or my child that has these limited interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: How can you kind of balance the like, yes, I know you love to watch these four clips on YouTube.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't only 15 seconds of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can do that sometimes, but also, let's try something different as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do you kind of start that process of that exposure?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think when we try to expose people to things on the part of the person we're trying to assist, there's this perception of, I have an opportunity to do the thing I like and you are taking my time from me to make me do this other thing that I don't want.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that perception alone contributes to a lot of pushback, like if I've got a break and during my break, I really enjoy reading a dog in Cyclopedia, for example, [SPEAKER_00]: and you say, well, hey, actually, I think we should go outside and play kickball.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm perceiving that you are using my time that I would have otherwise had to do my favorite thing to do this thing that you want, which creates sometimes a power struggle.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think finding ways to make it clear to the person that it's not instead of it's yes and we can do this thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: We are also going to do this thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Additionally, I would also say that, [SPEAKER_00]: I think we also carry these high expectations that we're gonna play an entire round of kickball when that might not be a fair expectation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe just exposing people to smaller portions of the activity is a better way to kind of get some more buy-in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can totally see that situation that you're explaining of the like, well, yeah, it's your break time, but we're going to use your break time.

[SPEAKER_01]: How I picked and that feel it so unfair.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would be annoyed if I like laid down to watch my shows and tell them what someone turned down on something I didn't like.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that clear communication pieces so key.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I like the idea of scaffolding as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're not going to go and just play a whole game of monopoly one time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We might have to just like one day play with the pieces and the next day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look at the money and things like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Looking at the flip side, which is maybe a situation that people that we see more often is that we're stuck in that same goal, like we're working on the same scale for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you mentioned like that's a good sign.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if we're working on the same goal for a while, making appropriate accommodations and strategies and we're not seeing progress, that that could be a sign of it really being a capacity limit.

[SPEAKER_01]: What other signs you notice that you're like, hmm, this may be something that's a capacity [SPEAKER_00]: I think responsiveness is another good indication of whether it's a capacity limit or a skill deficit.

[SPEAKER_00]: If the person is not responding to our attempts to kind of expand their skill repertoire, and again, the time component is not something I think we can separate.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the time component is going to come with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those two things together are going to be key indicators, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, this is a conversation I actually have with my brother a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: He works the front of a house at a non-profit cafe that employees adults with disabilities.

[SPEAKER_01]: My aunt started this cafe.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's not from an education background, but he's great with, you know, his employees.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we talk about this a lot that like, hey, like the task that you may be half of this employee, like his attention span might not be here for this and it might just be a capacity limit.

[SPEAKER_01]: that umbrella of this employee's strengths, and it's always kind of interesting remedial like have that conversation with him who's like outside of this world a little bit and him now starting to like see these like okay yeah like this this was wasn't a good task for him but this is a good task for someone else and thinking about it you know you had brought earlier the vocational thing and this is what I thought it right away.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like that a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: The vocational thing has a huge role in this, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's its own topic sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thinking about what we can do as educators, as families, or as job coaches, how do we assess when that barrier is a teachable skill?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you talked about earlier, or it's that genuine limit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think what my brother struggles with is he sometimes is like, I think they can do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like which I love that in him like he's like I think that they can do this and it's going to be great and so I don't want to like take that away that let's like make these assumptions that like know they can't do that skill and let's not have high expectations.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how how what's that process of assessing whether something is teachable.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's an in-between step between this person can't do it and this person will never do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the in-between step is includes modifications of the task in thinking through some of these questions earlier.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking about math class.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you are constantly having a struggle with math, [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just it's not nothing we have tried as reasonable.

[SPEAKER_00]: We try a calculator.

[SPEAKER_00]: We try all these other things and those things are not helping.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then yeah, maybe math is not for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think yeah, that middle ground of maybe modifying a task to where I don't know you a lot of people don't think to do that to remove specific barriers because I think people have this perception that independence means that you do the entirety of the task completely by yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think sometimes for some individuals independence means.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do a portion of an activity and I'm still contributing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really good point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the accommodation piece is really important there because there's a lot of things like I can't do but with accommodations I could.

[SPEAKER_01]: So having that in there helps assist everyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk about a little bit the misunderstandings that, you know, we've been talking about if you kind of miss identify a skill as a skill that visitor capacity limit or vice versa, this can have I think a long term impact even on a child in school when it goes to their next classroom and their next goals and kind of spiral into significant impacts on employment independent living if we don't learn these skills or.

[SPEAKER_01]: aren't given accommodations for these skills.

[SPEAKER_01]: What, have you, has your experience done with that?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think when we kind of misidentify what's a skill deficit versus what is just a capacity limit, we, and in either case, I think this speaks to both.

[SPEAKER_00]: We waste people's time.

[SPEAKER_00]: We deprive them of other opportunities.

[SPEAKER_00]: And on the process, we can sometimes destroy their confidence.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you are constantly being exposed to something that you simply do not have the capacity to be successful with, it's really going to do some damage to you, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: It certainly did to me when I was a lot younger and so recognizing that early on I think can be beneficial in preventing some of that harm that comes about as the result of You know miss identifying what really is someone's limit in terms of their capacity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this can create like a negative learning history with school and the school setting?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely, it definitely sets people up to engage in problem behavior if they don't have reasonable ways to kind of get themselves out of the situation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I liked that kind of what you said, like if you're always going to be unsuccessful, like you're going to get frost, I mean, I would too, like you're going to get frustrated, of course, and and then yet not want to engage in those types of activities and those types of settings.

[SPEAKER_01]: When a capacity limit is identified when you're like, okay, we've been trying this for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to waste time, we want to move on.

[SPEAKER_01]: But this is still an important skill.

[SPEAKER_01]: What types of accommodations or environmental changes have you found to have a really nice difference in promoting that independence piece?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think changing the goal is something that really kind of helps shift everybody's perspective, including the person involved, so for example, toileting is a skill that some people really kind of have a hard time with.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've been working on toilet training for the better part of a decade, I think it's reasonable to shift your expectations from this person is going to use the restroom independently to maybe they're going to learn to change their own diaper, maybe they're going to learn to wipe themselves, maybe they're going to learn to kind of [SPEAKER_00]: do the cleanup process or contribute to the cleanup process in some way, otherwise we're kind of stagnant.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need you to learn to use the restroom and for whatever reason that's you're just not able to I'm we're not going to make any progress.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to change the goal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought of toileting as well because that's one where obviously there can be like some medical components and at some point can't just work on a toileting schedule forever.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I love that idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, shifting the goal.

[SPEAKER_01]: How can we still contribute, even though this goal has changed.

[SPEAKER_01]: What about parents that have a hard time maybe sitting with that that are like, no, we're just going to keep working on that goal.

[SPEAKER_01]: What kind of conversations do you have there.

[SPEAKER_00]: someone I work with likes to use the phrase, don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I am not nearly that optimistic of a person, but I really appreciate that this person is, and I think that quote is very useful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it just means that it's not that we're accepting the bare minimum.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's that sometimes perfect just isn't possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we shouldn't overlook the good things that are possible just because we can't reach the perfect thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I could understand, you know, an educator, a parent having a hard time shifting the goal, especially if it's something that is a big life skill moment or that you've just had your eye on for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe this would throw in another thing in here that we haven't really discussed, but when it comes to a skilled deficit and assessing whether this is something teachable what role does reinforcement motivation play in all of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: kind of throw it right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the trick you want me to, I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just adds another layer to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think kind of referencing the previous statement about leisure skills.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, we're probably working with people who are going to have some really restricted interests.

[SPEAKER_00]: And as a result, reinforcement can be really challenging.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a matter of exposing people to a wider variety of options to expand that reinforcement repertoire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, it is a lot easier to get stuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think this is a really, yeah, I think it makes it more complicated too because I was like, well, what if I can do the skill that I don't want to.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing for educators to assess too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_01]: When think a lot of teachers listen to our podcast, so thinking about in the goal setting because when you first suggested this topic, like goal setting came into my mind, like IP goals.

[SPEAKER_01]: How can we kind of keep this in the back of our mind when writing IP goals?

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not stuck with a similar goal year over year and kind of falling into this pattern.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that's where data collection comes in and looking at the trends, are we making any progress on this?

[SPEAKER_00]: Have we shifted a million times and are we making progress based on those shifts or are we just shifting to the left constantly and doing nothing with it?

[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen that happen a lot where, you know, goal gets written and they're like, oh well, you know, it's not really working.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me try this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's not really working.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me try this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And by the time you're done with it, you've tried different things for the last two years and still no progress has been made.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, oh my god, I love you just said data because if we're taking all this data, what are we going to do with that?

[SPEAKER_01]: We have to you right for something This is great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is such an important thing to think about and I think it's like with our younger kids, but especially for you know educators that are working with older students as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Most of my [SPEAKER_01]: time teaching was in junior high and transition.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, when we have those kids stuck in goals, we want to have this be top of mind when pivoting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, thanks so much for bringing this up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this was a great topic to get kind of an everyone's head.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Caitlin, where can people go to learn more from you?

[SPEAKER_00]: People can go anywhere where there's a search engine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very Googleable.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on all the social media platforms and I've got a book [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's called Life on the Bridge, linking myrode to yours as an autistic therapist.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it focuses on practical, actionable strategies for supporting the autistic person in your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of autism books kind of focus on the conceptual, and I've got a fair amount of that in there as well, but I've also got a bunch of stuff in there that people could absorb and do tomorrow if they wanted to.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was really important for me to write something that's actionable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, I'm like grinning ear to ear because it's all I'm about to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want the actionable thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I love your your Instagram and TikTok.

[SPEAKER_01]: So one of my favorites.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks so much for for joining me and everyone go check out Caitlin social media pages and her book when it comes out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for joining us, Caitlin.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.