Boo and welcome back to Only a Bag in Italy travel podcast.

You scared me.

I'm Percy Milton, we did not plan this out.

This was off the cuff y'all.

And this is our spooky episode.

Happy Halloween, y'all.

Happy Halloween, where Darcy is going to tell us all about the Naples Catacombs.

And a couple of other spooky things.

Spooky, that is my best impression.

I worked on it.

It was really good.

I enjoyed it.

It wasn't too scary, but it was like just scary and I.

Had to keep all of our audience in mind.

Yes, yes.

And before we get started, I just want to say a big thank you to everybody who has been following us along, who has been like following the the podcast and leaving reviews.

We really genuinely appreciate it.

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So without further ado, Darcy tell us why we should be not afraid.

Afraid.

You don't need to be afraid, but Naples is hecka spooky.

Naples is hecka spooky.

If you're into that kind of thing, if you're not into that kind of thing, you can just avoid it.

It's not like you don't have to go to Naples.

Yes, you're looking for it.

Naples is the city for spooky things.

So in a recent episode, just hopping right in, I mentioned the the Museo San Sabero and that is the the Chapel with lots of cool statues.

And they also have the anatomical machines is what they're called in English.

They're not machines.

In fact, they are human, real human skeletons that have the the system of veins.

Is it the ventricle system?

Is that what that's called?

I don't know.

OK.

I didn't take anatomy class.

I did this is not good.

So essentially the veins are replicated using metal beeswax dye.

They're very creepy looking and I think very cool.

So the legend goes that the Prince of San Savero, Raimondo Tisagro, ordered the two of his servants be murdered in order for the scientist and artist Giuseppe Salerno to inject their bodies with something that metallicizes their veins.

I love it.

I feel like I should I should say something.

I don't know what to say.

I'm just sort of like that.

Seems like a really bad work environment honestly do.

You want to take a guess as to whether this legend is true or false.

It's probably true they were false.

OK, well.

That is not true.

He didn't have anyone murdered as far as we know, and that is so.

Suspicious and a Prince of somebody didn't have any.

I mean, he might have, but these two bodies, essentially the artist and scientist Giuseppe Salerno had already made one of these anatomical studies.

Essentially Raimondo saw it in Palermo.

He went down.

He, it was in a exhibition, I think in Naples actually.

But the the scientist Giuseppe is from Palermo, so he comes up from Palermo.

Giuseppe Salerno is from Palermo.

Yes, love it.

Yes, it's like John, New York City being from Cincinnati.

Yeah, it.

Is love it.

So he comes up to Naples, he's like, hey, I have the school thing and Raimondo is like dope.

I love it.

I would like to purchase it and I'd like to Commission you to make another one.

Wow, OK.

So that's what actually.

So it's like just.

Two creeps just be like that's awesome, high 5 and then like make another a couple of these.

This is good for, I don't know, bringing people in.

They were supposed to be used for science and anatomical study.

Of course science.

And then it was.

Making sense?

OK, so that was that was just a little follow up on the on the.

Chapel Yeah, it was Wednesday's episode, I think too, which I think we is where you first briefly touched on.

Awesome.

We're recording these slightly out of order so I can't remember.

So out of order.

Exactly when?

When I said that so let's hop into the catacombs.

Let us descend into the catacombs.

If I May 1st add, we thought we went to the catacombs once and we did not.

We didn't.

We will talk about it in I think next week's episode.

We'll talk about it.

But we actually went to the Soterania, which we'll talk about as well in a minute, but it's not the catacombs.

Naples has so much underground.

Stuff so much.

And at times, again, we will talk about another episode.

People were living underground.

Yes, people were being dead underground as well, which is what we'll talk about today.

Yes.

What does that mean?

That means they bury people in.

OK, I was like, what is like the living dead?

Is this the zombie thing?

Business zombies, OK.

Episode, I didn't know.

I don't know.

We're going with this.

Creepy things, but no zombies.

OK, so the first catacomb that I'm going to talk about is the catacomb of San Gennaro.

And this is kind of, it's like the big, it's the big one, you know, I don't think it's the most interesting one, however, but I do want to tell you about it.

So the catacombs of San Gennaro are named after the patron St.

of Naples who San Gennaro, and they are really big.

If you've been to catacombs, particularly in Rome, they're often compared to that Paris or Paris.

Oh my, OK.

But we can't compare them to Paris because the Paris catacombs are like on a whole other level.

I know, it's wild.

No offense to Naples, they kind of put the Naples ones to shame in creepiness and in.

Yeah, Lord.

Well, also to, I think, no offense to Naples.

I don't know how many cave systems Naples naturally had under it.

They did a lot of carving out themselves.

But I know that Paris is pretty much built on caves, especially the hills around it.

So I think that Naples, excuse me, Paris had a bit of an advantage seeing as just like we have this giant open closet below, I said we could just put dead bodies from the plague and was like, that's brilliant.

I think Naples like we have to do this manually.

So I think there's a bit of a, I mean, there's some cave systems, especially around Naples, and you're probably going to tell me something in a second.

Well, actually there's a vast underground cave network.

But not underground, but there were some naturally occurring.

Caves.

I was thinking like.

That were involved.

Yeah.

OK.

Because I was thinking that definitely in Paris it's all, it's all like a lot of it's naturally occurring and it's a fresh softer stone.

So I'm wondering if it was kind of an advantage.

Well, actually the the stone is pretty soft, but like rigid soft enough to work in Naples, but not so soft that it will crumble essentially.

So it's pretty good for that.

I will say just as a a cool point about the Naples catacombs compared to Paris, it's my understanding that a lot of the parts of the Paris catacombs are kind of just you can just like Sloop down from the street and sometimes nefarious things happen down there because like, I think up until recently, like even still going on, people will like hide down there and then mug you sometimes.

Yeah, it's like a when.

You're down there, they'll pop up like.

No, like people will go down there, muggers will go down there and hide.

I mean, it's super dark, so they can hide anywhere really.

And then when you go down, because I don't think there are many entrances.

And so some people will go like urban spelunking without like a tour or something and then get mugged.

OK, because I know there's also like raves and stuff down there.

I don't know if there's so far, but it used to be a big thing.

I know that people post videos and stuff.

I don't know if it's specifically Paris or anywhere with with catacombs, but I know and I say like catacombs, but I think it seems to be more the if the I don't understand how it works, but it looks like the catacombs are more just like in The Cave system.

There will be a rave.

Not like, on top of a bunch of bones.

I I believe that is true.

That's.

What it looks like, at least from the the videos.

So back to Naples.

Yes, of course.

Where you can safely go and visit the catacombs.

And unsafely if you want imagine.

I mean, yeah, I guess you could be unsafe, but but don't.

Yeah.

So, so these are like I was saying, they're larger than the ones in Rome.

The the catacombs in Rome are actually quite small.

And that's just because I think of the stone they couldn't carve out as much as easily.

So that the stone in Naples is called tufa Jalo.

And if you've heard of Naples yellow, you might be thinking, Oh my gosh, Naples yellow.

It comes from a stone.

That's the yellow.

Tufa are tough.

No, it's completely different.

Naples yellow comes from Egypt.

Fun fact then it's making a fake.

I was nodding and then I was like, yeah, that makes sense because.

I'm saying this because I that's what I thought when I first read that, and apparently a lot of people think that because why would you not?

But it's not.

No, it's from Egypt.

OK, another fun connection.

Don't love that Naples in Egypt I.

Mean, I love that it's from Egypt.

I just don't love that Naples.

Like what's this?

I mean, they were just like, yeah, let's call it Naples yellow, even though it's not from here.

Yeah, that's really sort of annoying.

It's also very expensive though.

Yes, it is.

Like, I mean, sitting saying you're an artist and every time we look at a tube of authentic Naples yellow, we're like, oh, $83 for tube of yellow.

OK, no, we'll use the fake one.

Thank you.

It's $1.99.

I know, but that's it's legitimate, massive price difference.

Yeah.

So in the catacombs of San Gennaro, it is there, the biggest space is it's fairly wide, but it's 6 meters high and in there's 2 levels essentially to this catacomb.

And they're not right on top of each other, which seems to be a big thing all the websites talk about.

They're not right on top of each other.

So so one is is called a basilica, the basilica of what is his name?

Sant Agrepino.

OK.

And this is the lower level.

And so all of this was built on top of an already existing Pagan burial site.

And then Christians came in, basically a noble family was likely using it.

And they were like, hey, Christians, do you want to use this?

And the Christians were like, yes, so.

OK, yeah, it's like a timeshare for a like a funeral plot.

I.

Love it.

So then was built on this what is now the lowest level of this catacomb for Saint Agrippino.

And it is, this is now a basilica.

And it is basilica like, but don't think, you know, massive churches like the, the, it's big though.

And it is, it's like a very creepy.

It's dark and they have this really wonderful lighting system that they installed in the early 2000s.

And it's just like it's almost columns that look like they're going up to an arched ceiling.

Interesting.

Yeah, but dark and and originally it would have been lit by oil lamps.

Now it has a very beautiful modern lighting system.

Those oil lungs probably terrible for pollution too.

Yeah, it's probably terrible for your lungs to be breathing all that in.

Yeah, absolutely to.

Explore the Catacombs.

Join the catacombs.

So yeah, exactly.

So in this lower level there is still you can see a Bishop's chair for the dead, sans Agorapino.

Interesting.

And is it alter?

Stone or is it out of?

Yeah, it's out of stone.

It's carved out of stone as well as an altar.

And I believe behind this you can see his grave.

So did he actually hold?

What is it?

Church Mass.

Thinking when he was dead?

No, no.

No, I don't think.

So, but he was he was buried there and and to this day you can go to Mass, but it's.

Like, was he ever used that chair?

I don't think so.

OK, I didn't know if he was like, this is super Indian underground.

And he was like, well, you know, this is kind of a nice vibe.

No, I believe he all of his stuff was put there.

Like the his body was put there and then they built the chair and the altar and then held to church.

OK, that makes sense.

Yes, I think I don't really.

I mean, I don't know if it does, but it does.

You know that's church underground, right?

People were into it.

Yeah, it was a fad.

It was fine.

Everyone's into.

It, it was also used for funerals.

So obviously people were buried in the walls, not buried in the walls.

Niches were carved out in the stone where they would place bodies.

And there were basically there's different kinds of places where people were buried.

There's the little arched sort of alcove rooms that were probably a little fancier, a little more expensive.

People were put in the walls, essentially.

And there were even little rooms for people to grieve and mourn and have the funeral, the families to come down and also to visit.

And there were even some bodies placed in stone sarcophagi, another connection to Egypt.

Pretty cool.

I like that I did not make that connection.

Thank you.

I was just like, OK, Stone.

So you can obviously go visit these catacombs.

It's recommended that you bring a jacket because it is quite chilly.

Yeah, it's like between 15 and 22°.

Celsius, OK, Yes, it is very cold down there.

So even in the summertime, it's quite chilly, which is a great option if you're wanting to stay cool in the summertime.

I imagine especially if it is one of those like heat wave days.

Yeah, absolutely.

So let's move on to my favorite catacomb.

I love it.

Yeah, the catacomb of San Gaudiosos.

I think I said that right.

If not, I love.

Gaudiosos.

I said that right, She says that she pronounces it the same way a second.

Time I thought I was going to do it different the second time I.

Love that.

Like honestly got halfway through and I was like, no, that was a good pronunciation the first time, let's stick with it.

I.

Think that's what it is?

I love that.

Gaudiosos.

If you're out there, let me know how to pronounce your name.

So this is found under the Church of Santa Maria de la Sanita, and that is Our Lady of Health.

Oh, OK.

Yeah, I was like, that sounds like sanitary.

OK, Yeah.

And so there is I think still even a modern day belief that this whole area where this catacomb is and I like even the neighborhood is very like healthy and sanitary.

Some people attribute it to that's just kind of magical thing.

No, I.

Was curious if it if like do you know if it was like I'm curious because I know like there's times like during cholera epidemics where certain areas where, where their water supply was not jainted.

So they were actually just happening to.

I think that might have some bearing that might be somewhat true, I couldn't find.

Anything.

Concrete evidence, but it is a pretty strongly held belief, or it definitely was for a while.

So there might be something to do with that.

Absolutely.

And So what people attribute it to the Saints, like there are many Saints buried there.

So they think it's that.

I imagine that it is like there might have been a naturally occurring spring or something that kept it.

Yeah, if you were getting water from there, it wasn't getting tainted.

Exactly.

Yeah, interesting.

So this this catacomb in this church is built on what was a pre-existing Greek and Roman necropolis.

So similar to the other catacomb it was buried.

It was created on an already existing burial site.

So in order to get to this catacomb you enter the church and then you enter a crypt and then you enter the catacombs.

I don't know the difference between a crypt and a catacomb.

When I read the definitions they seemed very similar, but that is how you get there.

I do love this.

I I don't know enough about death and burial to know the difference.

However, it's very cool.

So what I think is super fascinating about this catacomb specifically is that unlike the catacomb of San Genato, this catacomb has frescoes on the wall.

So the the one that I talked about previously is just it says yellow tough stone, but it's really it's pretty white.

It's kind of cream colored, which is beautiful.

But this one has some still existing frescoes on the wall.

So before we get to why the frescoes are there, let's talk a little bit more about the rest of it.

So basically when you enter, there are it's called cubicles along the wall, but in effect, there are little rooms.

It's a long hallway and little rooms, which gives the effect of columns along a long hallway to me.

And so this dates back to the 5th and 6th century, and this is where the frescoes are.

One of the frescoes is the Allegory of the Triumph of Death.

Allegory.

The triumph of death.

OK.

So essentially it's a skeleton.

There you go.

And I think he's wearing a robe and or he has like a a scarf.

It's kind of a shawl.

A shawl, it's all nippy out.

She can throw a shot.

Little scarf on.

So this is painted on one of the walls of the Gallery of the Nobles.

I'll get into that in a moment.

So this depicts death essentially triumphing our overall earthly things.

Makes sense.

It doesn't look.

It looks kind of happy.

That's kind of happy, yeah.

It's like triumphing over earthly thing.

Sounds scary, but he's not that.

He's not that scary looking.

I thought it'd be like celebratory, you know?

Like I'm running.

Yeah, the skeleton looks a bit celebratory.

So basically, like I said, there's a skeleton, I think he's wearing a shawl.

And at the bottom of this is an hourglass, a book, a crown and a scepter.

And they're they all have meanings, time, knowledge, power, things like that.

So then going on along this gallery of nobles are all these frescoes and they they're people like, oh, that's nice.

Some of them are holding hands.

I think it's like really cute.

So these are there depicting some of the dead people or heads behind the walls.

Interesting.

So there's heads in I have a question about the frescoes.

If I can pop, I'm I'm just, I wouldn't feel like we're now with the heads and I'm like, I have other questions on it.

The frescoes.

Is there modern lighting now in this catacombs?

And then the catacombs, there's no daylight, I assume correct.

I'm curious, do you, do you know, did you find any research at all when they brought in like daylight colored bulbs, for lack of a better word, like the the 5600° Kelvin bulbs.

If the frescoes still looked good, like I'm wondering if you had to paint these frescoes by essentially candlelight or gas lamp or something like that.

You tend, I feel like people like ours would tend to overcompensate because they're painting by very yellow light.

And I'm kind of curious if when you bring in regular light, if it changes the the paintings at all or if it flattens them out or if it makes them look like these are really weird and off.

Potentially as OK.

I don't want to be rude.

As an artist and having seen images of them, I don't know that in their current state you can still see them, but they are crumbling a bit.

They're not entirely intact and they're not highly.

It's not like a highly detailed oil painting or anything like that.

I know you, you know what a fresco is.

I'm sure you listeners know what a fresco is.

They're detailed enough, but I don't know that the lighting difference would make that great deal of a difference in in their eating across the point of the painting.

I don't know that it looks that different I guess.

Because I was thinking he was like doing like a yellow something supposed to be yellow at the painting.

I might have to overdo it or under do it or I was just curious.

Possibly.

That's a great question.

I I really don't know.

I can't prepare it with questions, sorry.

So the head.

The head I feel.

Like it was a commercial break.

I apologize.

Now we're back to it.

It was a really good question.

Thank you for asking.

I I don't think I answered it, but thank you.

All of that, this is if you ever do questions like on a stage somewhere, this is a great question.

I didn't answer it but keep them coming exactly.

Great question.

So in the 17th century, Friars believed that the heads of people were like the most important part.

Interestingly.

Held all the knowledge, held all the good stuff.

You didn't need the body.

Feel like there's like some sort of 18th century philosophers who sort of sort of feeling the same way.

You know, there's sort of like a, I don't know, there's that sort of thing of like the if you're, if you all, you only exist in your head, You don't exist outside of your head.

Like you don't have consciousness in your hand or your foot or your knee kind of thing.

So it's sort of like there's that same argument of, you know, and especially I think when people are, you're asked somebody like, where do you exist?

A lot of people tend to think their head because it's like, you know, that's where your eyes are.

And I think that's where you where you hear from, that's where you taste from.

So I think there's like a I get the thought process.

But I love that sort of like we don't really need the rest.

I'm like, y'all are 10th century for you don't have healthcare yet.

Let's let's wait a minute.

And this is this is 17th century, so this is pretty recent.

I'm sorry, that was 7th century.

No, no 17th.

OK, this is.

1600s they still don't don't have, I mean, they don't have a lot of great stuff going on medically, but you know, not that long ago.

Fair enough.

They were like, we don't need the body, we'll just take the heads.

So they used what were called drainers.

Already I hate.

This I know, so don't get too I mean you can get creeped out if you want.

These people are already dead.

No, there's no like torture happening in that story.

Just to clarify, so once someone was dead, their body would be placed on a table essentially and placed in in the fetal position in order skip ahead.

If you think this, this might be skip ahead about 5 seconds.

So the bodies would lose all of their fluids.

Interesting.

Mm.

Hmm.

The drift drying them out, yeah, and you're back if you skipped ahead.

And we're back.

So essentially they're drying out the bodies.

Yeah, but they weren't like, now I'm curious.

They weren't like cut open or like hang to drip, I don't think.

So or anything.

OK, there might have been some, what do you call it?

Not embalming when you dissect a body.

Yeah.

What do morticians do?

I preserving embalming.

I thought it was embalming, no?

Yeah, but that involves putting things back in the body.

Oh, I was just thinking with the like, like the my, I cannot think this morning.

I apologize.

I know some partitions listening to this going embalming fluid.

Yeah, but isn't there another that there's another one that they formaldehyde.

Thank you.

Oh, my gosh.

Formaldehyde.

I'm not sure what the exact process of it these fryers were lopping off heads within all, I don't know.

I'm guess I'm curious because like the salt cured meat had been around for a while and like there's other techniques of of curing things.

So I'm like if they just apply the same curing technique to a body because I imagine it'll work just fine.

Or is it more just they were like, no, we have a different one because that's weird.

Potentially.

I'm sure there was more involved.

I didn't find exactly the what the process was.

I would be curious.

I am curious to know, but I'm not sure.

All I know is that they put them on a table, put them in.

The fetal position.

Yeah, I was thinking of a warning, warning.

Sorry.

Kind of gross.

Let all the fluids out to dry them and we're back and and then they just dried out the bodies.

OK, fair enough.

And then?

They chopped off the heads.

So remember when you know those little, that little warning and you're and we're back.

They chopped off the heads.

Somebody's going to listen to go.

What did I miss?

Of the dead bodies, not of live people.

Again, Yeah, I didn't think that was as gross.

As as me or as other people?

The fluids.

Oh, OK, fair enough.

So sorry, not it's you.

Yeah.

So anyways, so they they took off the drug head and they they put the they entombed just these heads in the wall.

Interesting.

And if you're imagining yourself in this position, you're like, hey, I want that.

It's only for nobles.

Just so you know, if you're like a regular person, you're not getting this lopped off head treatment, OK?

You're going somewhere else.

You're not, you're not here.

You don't get a fresco.

That's amazing.

Like, just like you don't get the painting, you don't get the head, you don't have nothing.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't get the special head entombed in a wall unless you're very fancy.

In fact, I think there are only at least of the existing frescoes.

I think there are about six of these where you can tell, you know this is the person whose head is behind this wall.

Oh, fair enough.

OK.

Yeah.

So you might be thinking, well, where did all the regular people go?

Great question.

Well, in 1656, which is, you know, still 17th century, 1656 to 1658, the plague swept through all of Europe, really.

Yeah, I was really, I don't think.

And Naples was devastated.

Yes, I can imagine.

So it was estimated that just in the city of Naples, we're not even talking about the Kingdom of Naples.

In the city of Naples, 150,000 to 200,000 people died.

Out of.

That's about half the population, OK.

So that sounds about right, yeah.

Lots and lots of people.

So essentially I've, I've seen it described as like this part of town where the catacombs of San Gaudiosos and really all of the city of Naples became an open air graveyard.

Like they just didn't know what to do with all of these people.

So some of these people were put in this catacomb, but other people were just, this is going to be kind of gross, thrown into caves essentially.

Oh, that makes sense.

Again, once they died, no torture happening.

So another place that you can visit is the Fontanelle Cemetery Caves.

I'm sorry.

Sorry.

When you said Fontanelle, I was like OK, Italian and then cemetery.

Caves, cemetery caves.

Sorry, that's kind of an in English.

Yeah, yeah, it is just as a note temporarily closed at the moment, but in general you can go visit.

And so during 16561658, which was the plague epidemic outbreak in in Naples, they didn't have anywhere for all these bodies to go.

So essentially they just tossed bodies.

It collected them as best as they could and toss them into these caves.

And if you look at it on a map, it is probably a bit outside of what would have been like the functioning city of Naples.

So I think they were trying to get the bodies away, people, in order to sanitize this.

Area and now it's underneath the Spanish Quarter or something, right?

No, no.

But it is.

It's in.

It's still.

Firmly in Naples, yeah.

And so these were naturally occurring caves that they tossed people in.

And as you can imagine, and this happened everywhere during the plague because they just didn't have enough time to in order to, I mean, they didn't have time to give people burial rights.

And most of these people, I was going to say, depending on their religion even, but most of these people were probably Catholic at this point, but they didn't have time to do any of that.

They didn't have time.

All they had time to do was get these bodies away from the rest of people to try to save everybody.

So in eighteen 72200 years later, in effect, a guy named Father because he's a priest.

OK, I was like, what a weird thing to name your kid.

Gaitano Barabati, cool name.

He began basically going through these bodies, which were now skeletonized and some of them I think mummified just because of the way that they ended up being on top of each other.

So he began going through and categorizing and organizing these people.

And they were all anonymous.

Like, it's not like they put A tag on people to see who they were.

And this is so sweet.

So essentially a lot of what they found were skulls.

And so this you can go now visit these tons and tons of skulls of people who died during the plague in this cemetery.

Interesting.

And so the sweet part is that basically there were women who worked under and with, I don't know if they were nuns, but it did what the research I found said women worked with this, this fryer essentially.

And they went through and named the skulls.

I know.

And so then they would ask as well as naming them and they would go and chat with them and have little conversations.

And occasionally they would ask them for like they would pray to them, ask them for for help with things, make little wishes and they would write I guess requests and prayers on little rolls of paper and stick it in their empty eye sockets.

Interesting.

And then have cute little conversations with their friends skulls.

OK.

So we have come probably not that far actually I was in say we've come a long way, but I don't know if we have.

I feel like that's.

And so in effect, they, they had created this cult of like, protecting and preserving the dead, which was not happened.

It's not like that was happening in necessarily other places where all these bodies have been dumped.

Like, it was really this group of people who came together and said like, this is we need to do something about this and ended up just really caring for them.

And they're still cared for today.

That's interesting.

One of the things I wanted to mention just around the plague, I'd read years ago that it was one of the three or four plagues.

That's one of the ones in the 1600's, the bad one for Florence and things like that had killed something like one in three people.

And that was a big obviously because it killed both people who are wealthy and and not wealthy alike.

So sort of obviously sort of reshifted a lot of Labor standards and things like that and and and social standards.

But I was curious about Naples, mainly because it was, we mentioned before, it is even today a sense that everybody's very much living on top of each other.

And this is also kind of like, I mean, while it's densely populated, this is still, it's one of those things I think even where we are, right, there's a like, there's these 456 rooms, apartments, something like that.

And that's some decent space for like a person, two people.

And then somebody who shows the house is like, oh, yeah, well, my grandparents lived here with 18 people.

And it's like, oh, OK, so this is horrific.

Yeah, absolutely.

To live with 18 people or whatever.

And it's not a house separate from other houses.

The houses are smashed off each other, there's small roads in between, and if you imagine without we have modern day plumbing.

Amazing.

But without that, you're just living right next to other people among a bunch of refuse.

And it was basically it makes sense.

So it's like I was curious if it when the plague swept through it, like it basically would have really swept through because there's nowhere especially it's also like, I think nipples is, I mean, I was thinking between like, you know, things people don't have the money.

You can't necessarily leave the city.

It's also like if you don't have a boat, you're not going to go out into the water.

It does have a fair amount of like hills around it to the north and stuff.

I mean, so it's kind of a basic.

I'm just thinking geographically it's like, where do you go?

Like it's not like you because I think in Florence, OH, just go out into the countryside, even just go live somewhere.

But I think it's it's a little bit maybe potentially more difficult.

So I was just curious about that.

But it's also just moving to the schools.

It's a bit fascinating that I don't know, I, I'm just, I'm, I'm kind of I, I like the sort of, I like the incidental sort of I always like the incidental like, you know, this is strange thing that we did was actually keeping track, you know, keeping these things, I guess preserved.

But at the same time things fascinating too.

Just how it, I think there's like, because where we live in the town we live in, there's a small little shrine maybe, or display, for lack of a better word, that's not right.

But it's, it's a it's the bones of 300 people who went to fight a a war and massacred and they, the bodies were sent back.

And at some point between the bodies being, the bodies disappeared to the bones.

Like decomposing.

Decomposed.

Thank you.

And then?

Yeah, they weren't.

They weren't maintained.

It's not like all each bone for one person was kept together essentially.

So.

There's they're all mixed together and.

I just and I could think it's interesting though, how there's this like I think I'm getting coming from the United States sort of at least that sort of America judeo-christian sort of centric thing of like death seems kind of far removed, if that makes sense.

Like it's a bit like maybe you go to the there, there's, I don't know.

It's like here, it seems very much like there's a visiting of the body where everybody sees the person in the room.

And I think that's not very common in the States.

Or if it is, it's like closed cat or whatever.

It's just there's a different sort of feeling.

I think sometimes and I think it's interesting when here, especially like in in Italy, but I imagine a lot of the places where it very much feels like especially like with telling, hearing the stories, it's like you're not removed from death.

It happens like right in like birth and death or right in front of you.

You There isn't like, oh, we we have a room for that.

It's like, yeah, it's called this room that you're currently in.

And I know it's it's a fascinating thing of kind of like a it desanitizes, I think a lot of living because I think sometimes it's easy to be kind of get his head space of like, you know, we've sanitized life and.

To be kind of like we've sanitized and separated a lot of things.

I think there's an older way of being and a lot of older religions that or we're so much closer to birth and death and really like, on top of it, like you're saying, like everything happened in the same room and everybody knew exactly what was going on.

And yeah.

This is fascinating.

Not to say the old times or sometimes no better.

I've just no health care.

Y'all need to get that right but like no.

Science today is great.

Yeah, I stubbed my toe that we're gonna have to cut it off.

I'm like, I don't think we do.

I think I'm just going to die on this one.

We're good.

Thank you.

But there is something really special about being able to be close to death and not having it so far removed.

And so, I don't know, it's almost like not taboo, like everybody dies.

But it's nice to feel close to it in a way.

It makes it feel less scary I think.

I wasn't say like I think it when it's sanitizer pushed away, it's kind of becomes the source of fear.

But when it's, it seems like when it's a something that you can't necessarily you can't escape it, but it's something that you're so familiar with, then it kind of becomes less, I think less like this veil.

There's impenetrable kind of thing that you can't see.

Especially I think, and I'm thinking with these maybe nuns, just these women who were talking to the skulls.

It's not necessarily like, you know, maybe they were not talking to the spirits of the body or anything, but there's still something about this like facing quite literally what you will become and what's inside of you too.

Because I think that's kind of a, for some people.

I know that seeing a skeleton is always a bit of like a, oh, that's in me.

That's how I end up.

And it's a bit of like a it kind of does start breaking down those, those berries we put up of like, no, no, I'm not.

I'm not gonna die.

Oh.

Oh, right.

So I do think it's an interesting shift.

Absolutely.

And that has been philosophizing Darcy and Nathaniel.

Literally in an armchair.

You guys, this is Armchair Philosophy 101.

OK?

This was yeah.

Thank you so much for listening to us Pontificate.

And thanks for listening to our.

Spooky.

That's it.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Oh, I didn't mean to talk.

I thought there was more.

I would have kept my ending until you wrapped it with a fun little.

No, I think that was a great ending.

We talked about death, man.

At on all Halloween is all Hallows Eve yes, thank you because it's not actually Halloween.

Obviously we're recording this before Halloween, but it's also fascinating too.

I know that even in we're in Italy basically because All Hallows Eve and then All Souls Day and things like that.

There's a lot of this, like that end of October, early November.

We've even talked about two.

I think it's November 1st, it's All Souls Day.

Yes or yes.

OK.

All Saints, I can't remember which one comes first.

There's All Saints and All Souls.

And that's and I know that on one of the days.

It's got to be All Souls first.

OK.

Because also it's supposed to be, again, not in the north where it's much colder, but it's supposed to be the first day of a fire.

So you like a lot of people try to hold off lighting a fire until that day.

But even if you can't, you just have a fire that day either way.

So there's a, there's a lot of like, I don't know, it's an interesting sort of way of a lot of, I don't know, I mean, now, of course, again, it's a bit more like anything else that's like a holiday.

It's a bit more commodified and, and capitalized, if that makes sense.

It's sort of like, what are you doing, you know?

But I think there's definitely like, AI think a lot of people are still very much like, you know, visiting the cemeteries and there's a, you know, the veil between the world's is thinned kind of thing.

I'm trying to put a spooky voice on it, not a sarcastic one to be clear.

No it is and it is spooky so I did look it up for clarity.

All Saints is November 1st I believe.

All Souls is November 2nd.

Oh, is is All Souls, not All Hallows even.

I think of Hallows as souls.

No, it's like hallowed, like holy.

So Saints.

Got it.

OK.

I think we're all hallowed though, so we can we can usurp.

I love that.

So if you're doing that, if you're watching, what is it, the lovely witch movies with the Hocus Pocus one or two and you're having a lovely Halloween.

If you're not, that's also fantastic.

I don't know what, what else I mean, I don't like, Yeah, I mean.

It's cool if you're not celebrating Halloween, but it's a fun day.

Yeah, visually it's like it's a good excuse to eat candy and watch movies and I don't know.

And be close to the dead.

And be close to the dead.

Yeah.

So that's a fun note to end on, y'all.

And I think that's everything.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sorry, I was asking you.

I guess I wasn't saying that.

I don't know the notes.

Yes, that's everything that is.

I ran through all these spooky, spooky, fun things in Naples.

Honestly, if you really, if you are into like weird oddity, spooky things, dark tourism, but not in a way that is harmful, Naples is an incredible place to visit.

If you have like Atlas Obscura sort of bookmarked on your computer, there's a lot of fun stuff in in Naples, basically.

Yeah, that's a, that's a, It's an interesting one, yeah.

Absolutely.

So I think thank you all so much for listening to our our Halloween episode.

Thanks for listening.

Happy Halloween, Tantia Bracci.