Well, I said that to people.

"We don't have politics.

We don't agree, we don't think we should have politics." And they all laughed and said, you don't have politics'cause you're running it.

There's politics under you and when you go over to America, you're not running it.

Now you're in the politics.

That was David Gardner, good friend, industry heavyweight, longtime veteran, talking about company politics.

But the thing that you and I pulled out, was he was like,"Hey, we don't have company politics over in the office I run," and they're like, yeah, because you run it!

Yeah.

Like the politics go upwards, not downwards.

That's right.

Yeah.

What are you up to today?

What'd you do today?

Why don't you let everybody know?

Well, nothing that I did today.

I mean, I had my usual Sunday.

I get up at six, make myself coffee, go play a couple hours of tennis.

Couple hours, huh?

Yeah.

This dog was- I haven't been sleeping, 'cause Laura's outta town and

Get rid of the dog.

No, dude.

It's just, he misses her.

I'm just kidding.

Don't do it.

He wakes up in the middle of the night.

He's like, where is everybody?

He just starts barking.

You gotta run 'em.

Like get out there and run 'em.

Just run 'em.

Yeah.

I should take him to the dog park.

Or dog park.

Just get 'em tired.

Well, I can't now 'cause I'm getting on a plane to go to Germany in a couple hours.

Oh, Gamescom, right?

Yeah.

Gamescom.

Do you like that show?

I've never been.

You've never been?

I've never- I, you know, that's my, that's my secret.

I've never been.

And so I'm kind of looking forward to it.

And you know, I usually, I dread- I usually dread travel, you know?

Just in general.

Why?

It's like just getting displaced from my comfort zone.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Having to go somewhere else and interact with people.

It's, you know, it's very anxiety provoking, you know?

But I always have a good time.

I always do.

You know, I'm gonna give you a tip.

Can I give you a pro, a travel pro tip?

'cause you travel more than I do.

Like, I thought- you know, I travel probably four times a year, maybe five.

And usually they're over two hour flights.

Four-ish is the average, right?

And pro tip.

It's kind of like a cheat day.

Do you know what a cheat day is, like for people that work out?

Like health nuts?

Yeah.

Like you don't exercise and you eat a pie.

Yeah.

Or you'll go to like the drive through and be like 'four cheeseburgers, six fries,' you know, 'a diet Coke','cause we don't want to do-

I've heard of- I've heard of them.

Okay.

I've heard of them.

I treat travel as a cheat day.

So what I do is, I binge on a game.

So I'll take my Switch with me.

I'll purposely buy a game that I know I don't have time to play.

Like Red Dead was the last one, or actually, no, the last one was Skyrim.

Like I don't have time to play Skyrim.

So I got Skyrim and I played Skyrim on the flight!

And Balatro!

I don't have time to play those games.

Like I make time for other games, you know, like I have a priority.

I can't play Magic the Gathering on the flight unless I pay for what-

So you indulge, you indulge a little bit.

Yeah.

Or I'll read a book that I'm not not gonna read.

So it's like a treat, okay.

Yeah.

It's like a cheat day.

So you do, it's a little bit of extra self care while you're traveling.

Counteracts-

Yeah.

Watch a show that you would, that's like level C on your list, you know?

All right.

Or a movie.

I think, I think I'll probably take my laptop and just code while I'm on the plane, you know?

Is that- yeah, if that's what you do for cheat day.

It sounds like work though...

I know, right?

Doesn't it?

It was a thrill to have David join us on the podcast.

Really nice guy.

Yeah.

Super nice guy.

And I mentioned it to him, but he gets mentioned a lot, by some of our other guests.

Yeah.

You know, if they ever make an Apple- if Apple, I'm calling it out now.

Apple's gonna make a movie about EA Or aren't they making one already?

They're making it a Madden movie, right?

Oh, there is a Madden- but it's about the guy.

About the guy?

Okay.

I heard EA was in it or something too.

Probably.

But if they ever make an EA movie, there's gonna be like a montage of like,"Get David on the phone." And it's like, well, who's David?

And they're gonna do like a little montage of how you know, and when you listen to the podcast, how he explains how he got to Atari and to EA feels like- like a movie scene.

It does, it does.

You know?

'Cause it's so like, quirky and like, I don't know.

It's just- it's so unique.

Anyways.

Yeah, defines the hustle.

It reminds me of that phrase, "If you don't ask, the answer's no."

Yeah.

I don't think he was hustling though.

I think he was just being him.

Do you know what I mean?

You know how you have guys that like build radios in their basement and no one's asking them to?

They're not hustling!

They're just like doing something.

And it's like-

Yeah.

Super...

hat is that?

Is that self starter?

Motivated?

Motivator?

Okay, well that's my Sunday.

What's your Sunday?

What do you got going?

Hey everybody.

This is Sunday.

It's Sunday for us.

I'm gonna build some Warhammer models because I joined a Necromunda league.

So I need to build them.

This little guy here, I don't know if you could see him?

He's- it's a Darth Vader cat.

You can't see it.

I went to a painting competition all day yesterday.

It was an eight plus hour competition.

Yeah?

Whoa.

I didn't win, but really cool people, met some new- went with a buddy, you know, you pay an entry fee and then you get a free model and then you get to paint it.

That was fun.

What does the winner get?

The winner gets to pick a prize from their box.

They have like a box.

They have a painting night every week.

It's Dragon's Lair in Houston.

Kind of sounds like going to the dentist.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the dentist, when you were done there was like a little box you can go pick some things out of.

Exactly.

They still do that.

But yeah, that's what I'm doing today.

I'm building some Warhammer stuff.

All right.

Well, that sounds like you got an exciting Sunday, in store for yourself.

And for the rest of you, you have an exciting next chunk of time getting to know David Gardner.

So hope you enjoy our conversation.

It's a really good episode, y'all.

We'll see you on the other side.

Hello friends, and welcome to this week's Fourth Curtain.

Today we are joined by someone very special to me, a true gaming industry heavyweight Mr.

David Gardner from the early days of Electronic Arts and leading Atari.

Wow, you don't- you never hear those two in the same sentence.

Like that's- that's pretty huge.

And now, running London Venture Partners, David's career spans decades, genres - I think you've seen it all.

And you know, we're trying to show you some new stuff too, with our studio.

We'll talk about that in a little bit.

He's been recognized as an Officer of the Order of the British Empire.

I kind of know what that is, but maybe you can kind of-

Are you a knight?

I'm not.

I'm not a knight.

I'm just a couple notches under and it's the most disappointing 'cause every, particularly Americans, everyone goes, "You're a knight?" And then I have to back down the ladder a couple more notches.

Like a squire?

It's knights, squire, and then what's under?

Is it serf?

Peasant?

I don't know.

We'll get to it.

Okay.

We'll get to it.

He was appointed the VP of Games for BAFTA.

Is that still a gig of yours?

It is, isn't it?

It is, it is, yes.

Oh, okay.

Which is also pretty amazing.

And at LVP, he's backing some of the most innovative studios in the world, including mine.

Ours, Aaron.

Last time you were over here, we were chatting and you told me a little bit about your past and it was not the past that I would've made up for you.

So it's- I'm really excited to have you as a guest.

I wanna hear about Atari too.

That's like, yes.

Like what part of Atari?

Because Atari has had many lives.

Yes.

Oh

Atari is maybe the most unique company in the game industry in terms of being a nine lives act.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, it's my first game love and my heartbreak and all- all of those things all together.

But, yeah.

Do you wanna start with Atari?

Do we jump in?

No, I mean, we can if you want.

What came- yeah, what was the order?

Was it Atari, then EA or EA then Atari?

Well, it's an Atari sandwich!

When I was-when I was a kid and the 2600, you know, was out.

And then of course they just, I say of course, but not everyone may know, but they launched Atari 400s and 800s the computers.

And I- they really liked talking to me because I had sold my Apple II to have the money to buy an Atari 800.

So I was a bit of a poster kid for them.

And so I used to hang out with the Atari leadership a lot.

I lived in Las Vegas, but they were up in Sunnyvale and they- there's a longer story behind it, but eventually I ended up doing trade shows and events for them.

And I was a bit of a mascot, is what some of the marketing folks called me.

So I used to hang out with[them], and through that, going to the Consumer Electronics Show for Atari, I met Trip Hawkins, who founded Electronic Arts.

And Trip hired me, and I went to EA which was the right move because of course, Atari crashed and burned.

And then my CEO of Atari job, which came decades later, was to try to pull them out of the lost lands.

We gotta go a little deeper on that one, in a minute.

But, one thing that I made a note of is, I don't know if you know this, I'm guessing you don't because, you would have to listen to basically our entire catalog, which is not a bad idea.

I, yeah, I recommend it.

I recommend it to anybody.

But you're, you're one of the most mentioned names.

Weird.

I'm surprised.

Peter Molyneux tells a story, in the episode where he's on, about how basically you discovered him.

And-

Oh my goodness, I thought he was gonna tell the story of when I blew up his monitor.

'cause I plugged it in to his, his US voltage into UK cable.

He didn't, but you could tell it!

Did that happen?

I still feel a little bit guilty.

But, you do get mentioned a lot, you know, in your role now, like as an investor and a partner in a venture fund.

You are kind of a super connector too.

I mean, you have this incredible network.

And, I'm just- is that a thing?

Like, is that like a personality type?

Not like collecting relationships, but I guess valuing them, you know, and knowing how to- it's more than just networking, you know, it's sort of like-

Well, it doesn't have to be, but I hope it is.

I mean, I find I'm excited by people, so new people, hearing about what they're passionate about, what their skills are.

And one of the lessons I learned, I think in management, through my years at EA was how it takes a team.

And how often, you know, to be a good leader, you have to be a good servant and get the heck outta the way and enable it for other people.

Because, you know, some people are making some incredible game or some people have some incredible, you know, kind of marketing campaign or like, you know, the branding around EA sports, that was an incredible piece of work that endures, to, you know, until today.

And so there are lots of people.

So I, I do love- and I loved international- I mean, I am an American, came from, you know, being born in Long Beach and da dah, dah.

But I love the world.

I love international.

I live now in Europe.

I came to London to set up EA all those years ago, and it was the most exciting thing.

And it still is exciting, every time I go to a new city, it's- I'm so excited.

And, yeah, I just love that.

So I think I would answer your question to say, there is some personality in it.

It is something that brings me energy and joy, so it's easier for me to do.

And I love, whenever I'm hearing- I was on a call today with a portfolio company and you know, they're trying to figure out, you know, what, what's the kind of current way to handle app store optimization?

So when people search, you get discovered.

I was like, "oh, these three people, you gotta talk to these[people], it'll be so good." You know, and they're gonna feel good because they're helping you.

I feel good because I've helped connections.

So it's- it is my dopamine is helping make connections.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

It's like, I wonder if- a lot of the things that I do from like a problem-solving, like mindset, like entrepreneurship often is a lot of problem solving.

You know?

You get yourself in scenarios that aren't- weren't necessarily on the plan.

Okay, what next?

Same with like coding, is that it's a lot of problem solving.

Even cooking, you know, it's like something didn't kind of get- it's too salty now what do I do?

and I just, I kind of wonder if maybe-

Lemon juice.

Maybe like when you're in a conversation- Yeah, you never have that problem.

'cause you have, you probably have your own chef, you know?

No, no.

I love cooking, but I was gonna, I said lemon juice.

I think lemon- add lemon juice to cut the, more acid.

Okay.

There you go.

Perfect.

Like when you'd have, or you're in a conversation with somebody, when anybody's in a conversation with somebody and they're kind of like sharing a problem they're trying to solve, I imagine some people's reaction might be,"oh, well if you do X and Y that might fix your problem." Whereas maybe your go-to is"I know like four or five people who are the best at solving this problem, and I can connect you to them."

Is that how you were in like school too?

Or is that something you, you know what I mean?

Like, were you like setting up friends and, "oh, I know who you should hang out with!"

School was tough for me.

I did not enjoy school.

In fact, I didn't complete school.

So I'm a high school dropout.

Well we had- this is an often-debated a topic for us about the value of the expensive, higher education.

And I- it has changed over the years, but, I would love- So you didn't go to college, sounds like you sort of tapped out in the high school years, 'cause you got really close with Trip.

Is that.

Is that, that age, or later?

Yeah.

I finished- I kind of stopped going to school around 15.

I was working in the local computer store and, you know, increasing my hours and going more and more.

And they were like, "Hey, aren't you supposed to be in school?" "Yeah, yeah, I have to.

Sick day." You know, I kept making up excuses until finally I got busted.

Where was that?

That was in Las Vegas.

Oh, cool.

What were you doing in Las Vegas?

Well, we had moved.

My father had died in- we lived- we started in LA then my dad hit retirement age.

He was a school teacher in math.

And, so I didn't know, but my family's from Mississippi, so we moved back to Mississippi.

I was like, "what are we doing here?

This place is awful." They have, you know, eight people on the same phone number.

We had party lines.

We had- there was- we were- we lived literally on a farm.

There was no technology around other than the propane gas tank, which I would open up and freeze the grass and kind of experiment with things.

And I would write to Hewlett Packard to get their incredible catalog, which was like an encyclopedia.

It was a hard bound book.

And I would anxiously wait.

It would take a few weeks and it would come in the post, in the mail.

And, and it was...

Yeah, it was- I probably shouldn't say porn, but it was like, you know, it was digital porn.

And I looked through every page and had all these weird measuring instruments, but they had programmable calculators and I saved up to get my, you know, HP and, anyways, where am I heading with that story?

Oh, we were in Mississippi'cause of my dad and then he died, and my mom was like,"let's get the heck outta here." And I said, "yes, let's get out!" So we are heading back to the West coast and my mom stopped in Las Vegas, we were taking the U-Haul across the country, and she said "49 cent breakfasts and houses for 50,000?

We found home!" So we just stayed.

So Las Vegas?

Yes.

And actually wasn't a bad place.

I mean, it continues of course to grow.

And I've got friends that were literally from high school, like the Westwood guys and the computer store was a bit of a hub for all of us.

But it was all the big shows at the convention centers.

So we had CES, we had Comdex, which is- Comdex has gone, but CES continues to thrive.

And so that was a major networking moment.

And I used to sneak in, I was a kid, I was too young, I wasn't allowed to go in, but I would sneak in and meet companies.

I was obsessed with computers and companies.

Those were my two targets.

And, I would even go around, and- I can't believe I did this and I wouldn't let my own kids do this now, but I would take the bus downtown.

I was like, 12, and I would knock on the office doors and say, "Do you have a computer?" And they would be a bit shocked that some kid would- and they would say, "well, yes" or "no." I said, "Can I see it?" And more than half the time, they would be delighted and they would show me.

That is how I made my connections.

And then I got introduced to- I went into City Hall.

They had some kind of mainframe and, you know, Telex, Teletypes that had, you know, everything was coming out on paper.

And, his brother-in-law ran the local computer store and he said, "Oh, you should go to Century 23 where the computer store is, down on Spring Mountain Road in Las Vegas." So I started cycling down there and that's where I got deep into the whole world of computers.

Wow.

And this was just, this was just you knocking on doors and asking.

Literally knocking on doors.

Yeah.

'Can I see your computer?'

There's a lesson for you kids, "If you don't ask, the answer is no." And don't be afraid to, you know- I guess borderline creepy, but if you're 12, you know?

Yeah.

I was pretty creepy.

Yeah, you were pretty creepy.

Okay.

That's amazing.

Okay.

What would you do when they let you in to see the computer?

Like what happens in that moment?

They would always talk, you know?

They were like this and that, they would explain and know someone had more advanced, some had CRTs, some had, you know, some had the old mag tape, some had rigid drives that were in huge cartridges that had be perfectly air sealed and they would be kind of dropped in.

And then I got a job at one of those companies when a few- when I was a couple years older and they were selling PDP-11s, these digital decks, they were called DEC-

In Vegas?

Oh yeah.

-In Vegas, and I was writing code in DIBOL, which was 'Digital's Business Oriented Language.' It was a COBOL clone-

Whoa, I don't even know that- is that code?

It's a COBOL alternative.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I can't remember any of it now, but yeah.

Then I worked at the computer store and you had to kind of, to sell a computer, you'd have to set someone's database up and kind of do the basic programming for them to get it- you know, kind of functioning.

But, it was the- I started being really interested in all the computer things, and then as Atari started thinking about computers, I literally started every day after school I would call the phone number, I think it was a 1-800 number and I called Atari, I had to get transferred to the marketing department and I'd have a new set of questions 'cause I'd been reading and thinking.

And so I had a bunch of questions and they started to know me by name and they expected my call.

And that went on for months.

And then it was January coming up.

And they said, "David, we're coming to Las Vegas.

We'd love to meet you." And they were really so nice.

I mean, it's really crazy.

I had no idea I was being a nuisance, but I just wouldn't stop.

How old was this?

I was 15 and-

This is 15, okay.

And, at that time.

And then-

Chutzpah!

Chutzpah, that's what that was called.

And then I thought, I'd better get some business cards printed up because I thought, you know, I was super serious about that.

I had not- so I got my cards printed up, 'Gardner Computer Service', and then, I went and met- I went to meet the marketing department who all knew me and they were absolutely amazing.

I had to literally get snuck in because I was far too young.

You know, 18 was the minimum age, so they kind of hustled me in the back and got me past and I got to see the booth.

Oh my gosh.

That was so- the Atari booth.

Wow.

Oh my gosh.

And I think they had launched Star Raiders, which to me was the ultimate.

It still is the ultimate.

I had a- I may have lifted one of the pre-production cartridges to take home to my computer.

I don't, I dunno.

Which, I'm sorry for that.

Are you a gamer at this time or are you just like a techie guy?

I'm- You're everything, when you're at that part of the industry, right?

Where the Apple II had just come out, and the Atari 800 had come out and yeah, you're playing games, you're writing code, you're doing everything, you're trying to get the cassette to load and somebody comes out with a floppy drive and you all that kind of stuff.

But the Atari people really scooped me up.

They were transformative for- they actually introduced me to the guy, Ray Kassar, who was the CEO at the time.

And he kind of chuckled when I chatted with him and everyone, you know now as I look back in my mind's eye, I realize it was funny because a kid was acting so precocious, but it got me a gig.

They then said, "Would you come to Chicago and demonstrate our computers?" I was like, wow, someone's taking me, you know?

So they paid for my ticket and I'd done my research.

I wanted to fly TWA 'cause they had an L-1011 Lockheed TriStar.

And I was into all the geeky things.

Wow!

Gold, man.

They gotta make a movie about you!

They took me, they flew me.

They gave me, you know, like 3 or 4 night, I forget the name of the hotel on like Wacker Drive in Chicago.

And, maybe it was Lower Wacker, I don't remember.

And we went to CES and at McCormick Center and wow.

That was it.

I was- and then they started staying in touch.

And then there was a TV show being filmed in Las Vegas.

It was one of those really bad daytime TV shows.

I think it was, Mike, gosh, what was he called?

I can't remember the name.

It might come to me, but it was one of those things and Atari had sponsored it, so I was brought on to demonstrate Pac-Man and there was this comedian named Rick Taylor who was on there.

And so I'm on there as a kid, and they gave me like 500 bucks to go buy clothes.

And I went down to the, you know, the local- and that started getting me involved in like, you know, having to dress up and do all these things.

So yeah, that started life.

And that's how I ran into Trip at one of the shows.

And then Trip offered me a job and I moved to Silicon Valley and that was the beginning of the new role.

Wow.

Okay.

So, when did that happen?

When did you move to go start?

Yeah, where was the job?

How old were you?

So I was 17 when I went to- well, when I first met Trip, I met him in Chicago at CES and he was with a guy, named Bruce Zweig, who had created- was a creator of Lightning Type, it was an early kind of touch typing tutor on the Apple.

And I loved learning to type.

I thought that was so- such a fun thing.

And, he came through.

It's your favorite game genre, isn't it, Aaron?

What's that?

Like House of the Dead?

Yeah, I love typing games.

Yeah.

Typing games, like Mavis Beacon?

Yeah, like when you're going through a game and it's like- or like through a level and then a word comes up, it's like, "livery" and you have to spell "livery" really fast and then it shoots the character or something.

Or it like-

Yeah, well it was not as advanced, but it was heading in the direction.

Yeah, typing games are the best.

And Bruce was this guy that came to the computer store.

And again, back to the connecting thing, I always re- I remember this guy, he was so exciting because he made games.

They were in Ziploc bags.

They had a hole punch in the center so they could be put on the peg, and it was a photocopied color thing of Lightning Type.

And at that time, can't remember if it was on cassette or CD or Floppy Drive.

But anyway, so I chatted with him and he enjoyed the chat.

And then amazingly I ran into him in the aisle of Chicago, CES, and he was with this guy who I didn't know, Trip.

And Trip was just finishing his job at Apple and just had this idea for a new games company.

We had a big argument because there was a company that had games for the Atari 2600, one of the first hacks into the system,'cause it was a closed system.

But they figured out a way to put a cartridge in, have two audio cassette leads come out and you could download your games from audio cassette into the PRAM of this cartridge and play a game.

And, Trip thought this was the most incredible thing and I thought it was never gonna work.

And so we had a big argument.

And then at the end, Bruce said, "How old is this kid, do you think?" And Trip's like "I don't know, 21, 22?" And I had just turned 16, just had my driver's license.

So, it was then Trip said,"That's- you know, I really enjoyed talking to you.

I'm gonna hire you." He literally said I was gonna hire you.

And I was so excited I went home to tell my mom, "I've got a job!" But of course, I had no way of getting a hold of Trip, there was no internet.

No, you know, you could dial director inquiries, you know, maybe that was it.

But- And it was in COM in Las Vegas again, six months later, there was COMDEX and I was walking the aisles and I literally bumped into Trip in the aisle and it was like, there you are.

And didn't know how I was gonna, and it was like fate.

I mean literally from- so there you go.

So then I, then we exchanged numbers and addresses and then I flew up to interview in California and it was a tough- there were only eight employees, so it was a tough- I had to interview with everybody for two hours.

It took two days.

Wow.

Okay.

So I gotta imagine those first eight employees that you were- became cohort with, probably some notable folks in there.

Was- did that include the likes of like, Bing Gordon, and-

Bing was there.

Yeah.

Bing, who stayed in the industry.

Tim Mott, who stayed and was big- I think he started Macromedia.

He's done tons of things and did venture, and I think he may- I mean, I'm not sure Tim ever retires, but he's always around.

A guy named Rich Melman who came outta VisiCalc.

He was there, he's a VC.

I guess that's what you have to do, you have to- I'm surprised Trip didn't become a VC.

I think he would've been extremely good at it.

But, what's the gig though?

So what did you get hired for?

What is your job?

I was marketing analyst, and I was the only one that actually had ever worked at retail, so I knew the margin structures, the suppliers, I actually knew how the stores worked and sold games.

So I helped set up the trade, the terms and conditions and the trade thing.

And then I started training the sales reps because I kind of played the games and I'd had some sales experience.

Then I set up customer service, which I absolutely, sadly hated.

But I started getting the first international post through and we got Telexes from our distributors needing help.

And so I started supporting the international crowd and that was kind of really interesting.

And then my neighbors started saying, "oh, I went to, you know, Europe one year," and then I started hearing about these other places in the world, which I didn't really know about.

And I decided, oh, I really want to go do that.

And I had saved a lot of frequent flyer points on Pan Am because back in the day, they flew from like San Francisco to the East coast and I was traveling all around teaching the reps how to sell the games.

And so I had enough points and I went on my first free trip to London, and the distributor in London picked me up in a Rolls Royce of all things.

Now, in hindsight, that was a bad move.

That shows they were making way too much money on our games.

We need to have a talk about your wholesale cost.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

That's amazing- Alright.

Pan Am.

Okay.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

I'm glad you used those points, 'cause yeah, because they'll last forever.

So you come- you do your first overseas trip and you're how old at this point?

I was, 19 I think?

Because I remember I was too young to drink in America, but I could order a beer and stuff.

Wow.

That's how you can remember, that's so good.

So, I mean, there is something really interesting, just from that- I don't know what this perspective is, but Aaron, you and I talk about college a lot and David, you didn't need it, clearly.

No, but you know- so it's taken a long time to process.

I read that Malcolm Gladwell book, I think it's called Outliers, where he talks about 10,000 hours.

Did you ever come across this?

Because he said-

Yes.

I know the concept.

I don't think I read that book, but I know the concept.

But he was trying to explain why do all the great hockey players in Canada, why were they born- I can't quite remember how the logic goes, like September to November, but it's because when they go for the trials, they are the oldest physically, and then they are more able compared to the younger ones, and then they get selected, and then because they're selected, they then get the most number of hours of training.

And he then starts using that example in lots of scenarios including Bill Gates.

And Bill Gates had access to compute.

He was- he had access to computers, he had time and money.

And then because partly of, I guess what, his dad was like a lawyer and they had computers.

And then at the university, he kind of didn't go to class and went to computer hall, you know, to computer lab.

And it was the same for me.

I had access, it was the very beginning.

I mean, I literally, I met Steve Wozniak selling Apple IIs in LA and I bought like serial number 2,500.

He was, I mean, he was kind of a somebody because it was cool, the Apple II, but he wasn't what he, you know, became, and you know, jobs and everything else.

So it was, I used to hang out with the- no one cared that I was a kid.

They cared that I had an Apple II, so they would invite me to all the clubs.

I was hanging out only with adults.

And that just- I had access and the time.

So I had my 10,000 hours as a kid before, you know, like the same time as the adults were getting their 10,000 hours.

So I just got sucked into the thing with everybody else.

I just wanna say David, that's a nice explanation, but school sucks.

I hated it.

I was actually, I was thinking about this this morning.

What a serendipitous conversation because I was just thinking about my experience in school and I needed it.

Yeah.

Some people need it.

I was not ready at 17 to- I mean, I have some chutzpah.

I'm not afraid to pick up the phone and call, but I need the exploration to find things that I like.

I'm just kidding.

I think school's important for- it definitely does create a,like, a place for people to, you know, to study and to work together and network and all that.

It taught me how to think.

I'm definitely a different person after having been in college than beforehand.

Just the way I think about things.

Yeah I kind of sometimes wish I had gone to college, but I- we did, you know, when we were a billion dollar company making, you know, had all these executives, I- we did some things.

I put a program together.

The California team went to Stanford, we went to London Business School, and I loved it.

I couldn't believe how exciting it was and how fun it was to have that kind of learning environment.

And I sort of, I said, gosh, if I knew this was university, I might've gone.

But everybody said, no, this is what graduate school looks like.

University is just getting pissed and, you know, going, you know, going crazy and doing all this stuff.

And I wasn't keen on that.

I was excited by the technology and learning and business.

And school was too- I mean, school did one good thing for me.

There was one class, we had this- we had special ed in our school system.

It was like code 54 on your thing and 54 was the kids that couldn't cope and the kids that were above average and needed- they tried to create a special program for, so I was in special ed.

And fortunately I was given space to like, make up my own course and I did basic programming.

And it was a mistake because I thought it was the basics of programming.

So I bought the book and started learning, and then I found out, oh, it's the language called Basic.

And, but I got to do binary numbers and Basic.

That was my course.

And I was in sixth grade, so I was 12.

Wow.

And I remember that very clearly.

And they had that kind of weird program they were trying to do and that kind of freedom was amazing and that gave me some space.

But I don't like the factory element of school because I think people learn at different rates in different ways and you know, I wish we had a different system, and maybe we will put more flexibility with cohorts and AI helping track and recommend-

That's one thing that I think technology, particularly, you know, the YouTube era was a huge learning boon, I think, for a lot of people, myself included.

And I'm seeing the same thing with AI, just as a research learning, like self-directed exposure to knowledge, et cetera, is very fascinating.

Super fascinating.

That's a whole- that's a whole topic, but, like what was the early days of EA?

What was that like?

So, you got there.

It was nine people.

You increased the headcount by 12% when you were hired!

Between my interview and starting, my interview was, I think back in November and I started January 3rd, and so I was employee 11, so they hired a couple people before me and, wow.

So, I mean, it was classic Silicon Valley startup as far as I can tell, we had big backers, you know.

First of all the founders were, you know, Trip had gone both to Stanford and to Harvard.

So, you know, he had first class education and he was a senior executive at Apple.

So he was able to go sell the venture community on this idea.

And he based it on the Marshall McLuhan theory of the kind of different forms of media.

And he would tell the story that, you know, first we had the written word and that was huge.

And, you know, the Gutenberg press, and then he talked about, then we had radio and that was audio and that kind of created, you know, the next big boom in media.

Then we had television, which combined, you know, both visual and audio.

Now we have interactivity and that's gonna be bigger than ever.

And it just wasn't, it wasn't for like 25, 30 years.

And it's like, you know, oh, you know, we're letting everybody down, but now we have it on the chart.

We're still insecure about how big we are, but we are by far the biggest media, but we're not numerically, you know, we have very deep monetization.

That's why the total spend on games is much higher than any other media.

But a big film still has more societal impact than a big game.

Although maybe GTA six may set the new record,

I would not be surprised.

Yeah.

But that was the- we- EA he was- Trip was and is, you know, he's a genius and he could preach it.

He- I was- I believed everything and I loved it.

It filled the hole I had, and it was like purpose and we had our speech, and it was getting that deep kind of, drinking from that fire hose.

And then I came to Europe in'86 to start, well, to do some research on what EA should do, but then ended up staying and ultimately leading EA in Europe.

But it was, I had that imprint like a duck, you know, that was the- I did everything the way I was believed-

The reality distortion field.

Completely.

The reality that he learned- Trip, honestly.

He says it was Steve Jobs that he learned it from.

He used to watch the amazement at the absolute master.

And I think that wasn't always helpful.

You know, I tell kids growing up that probably the most important skill for them to learn if they wanna be- do anything is how to sell.

How to sell your ideas, how to sell yourself.

There's a lot to say about that.

And if you can sell with some kind of authenticity as well, it's super- that we're missing- America has skyrocketed incompetence around selling and it's been late, I think, to the authenticity party, but I think it's coming.

We'll be right back.

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And now back to the show.

You go over to start the European office?

Like how did you get that gig?

Like it is a little bit of a jump from, okay, I'm gonna- I know retail, so I can help set up the retail program, I can help train customer service to, I'm now going to basically start the European and run the European operation.

That's maybe that's one or two ladder steps.

Well, for this, about two years before that, I ended up supporting all the kind of international sales efforts from California, and we were reaching a point where we had to either renew our licensing agreement in Europe or set up our own operation.

And we did decide.

They said, you don't- you're not in a relationship.

You don't have any kids.

You're expendable.

You go.

Go for three months and just go live over there for three months and just go try to understand, you know, what is this Sinclair Spectrum thing?

And, you know, why are they putting games on cassettes and what is the, you know, how does it all work, over there?

And so I was sent to London and, thank god, on an expense account, because it was expensive at the time.

And it still is, yeah.

And that again was another absolute life changing moment.

It changed everything.

I just couldn't go back.

London was the first big city.

I mean, I'd been near San Francisco and you go to San Francisco, but you realize it's actually a little boutique city.

It's a- you know, it's not a city.

It's not like New York

Not a metropolis, yeah.

Not a metropolis.

And, anyways, it was again, just mind blowing.

And I went with all that fervor, both as an American, but I was totally brainwashed by EA and so I was selling it and preaching it everywhere out there too.

And we- everyone, you know, kind of sniggered, very British the way they-

See now, like, so I've known you for a while and it wasn't until you sort of told me some of this backstory that I knew that you like, came from Mississippi, which I never would've guessed in a million billion years.

You're, British through and through to me.

Yeah, well technically I am British and most of my life has been in Britain,'cause I moved at 20- I think I just turned 21.

So.

You know, literally most of my life.

Oh right on.

Oh really?

You stayed.

Childhood in America adulthood in-

So you got off the Pan Am flight, ran out of points- for your first three months and you're like, eh, I don't need the points anymore, I ain't going back.

British now.

Where's the fish and chips?

Okay.

All right.

So, after the three months, was it then basically you were starting a business here?

There?

I mean, basically did it from ground up or did they send some more fo reinforcements for you?

We did, yeah.

There was a very important addition because literally I was a kid with no college education, so I think they eventually thought 'maybe we should have a grownup as well.' And they sent over Mark Lewis, who had been at the company for a few years and had done a variety of jobs, including being a producer of some of the games.

And he was a grownup.

But interestingly, he in his childhood had done an exchange year at one of the British boarding schools.

So he actually knew the UK reasonably well.

And, so he came over and we shared a flat and started hiring people and thinking about, you know, how to get games converted to the different formats and how to package them.

And we carried some of the same ideas, like we were going to sell direct.

And one of the tenants, you know, EA had a few key strategies and one was to own its own retail presence.

So it went direct to the retail stores, had its own sales team, didn't use distributors, we had some unique packaging back in the day.

The first packages were record album style, so they unfolded beautifully, but they were- and the CD would, well the floppy disc, but eventually the CD would just slide into a pocket that was really beautifully done.

Incredible art.

We had like photographers from the Rolling Stones shooting the artists and the cover pictures.

And so it was all very art high-end.

And again, Bing was one of the huge influencers in all this.

He was from- he had spent some time in advertising and we just had a very kind of moneyed, you know, we- I think we were maybe the first gaming company with venture capital as well.

There were like, Brøderbund- I know you talked about Mist, but Broderbund was one of the competitors in Sierra Online, but they were shipping things in plastic bags, until we- you know, and then eventually people went into full color boxes and stuff like that.

Huge boxes.

So for the kids, like back in- at this sort of whole era of games, and that lasted for a while.

You know, games were of bought in a store, so they were physically manufactured.

And this bit that you're talking about, the direct retail presence, is expensive to do and very important.

Because what people don't realize is that all that merchandise, when you go into a store and you see like a big display that's filled with, in the day, it would've been a- you know, the first version of MAT or something today at the supermarket it's your snap pop or whatever.

That's all paid for by the company that makes it, so EA would be paying for this shelf space.

And sometimes the stores, they don't put it up right, they don't put it in the right place.

And we used to have these people called detailers.

We just- we would spend money to hire these people that would go store to store and make sure the product was facing the right way and none of it was damaged, all this junk.

And it actually has a huge impact on what people buy.

Because it's, "My stuff isn't at eye level?

What are you doing here, store retailer?

Move my product up so it's eye level." You know, all that kind of stuff, which we don't deal with anymore 'cause it's all digital.

But was a big part of the business back then.

But that was part of the filtering system of, you know, it reduced the amount of choice to something discernible for the consumer.

Now we have whatever it is, a thousand games a day if it's released.

Infinite, we now we have infinite choice.

Which is-

Yeah, so it's a mixed blessing.

I mean, I'm also for it.

I mean, we've certainly enjoyed, you know, it's been good news.

I mean, I was, you know, part of the early investment team into Supercell and literally they were 160 people, making more profit than Electronic Arts because they had 12,000 people and they did it.

I remember we went to Japan, I'm kind of jumping around here, but we went to Japan to launch Super Cell and I had spent a decade trying to get EA in Japan correctly.

And, you know, it's employee heavy and a nightmare.

And they went in, we spent one week there.

We hired one employee.

We did- they did a beautiful job on localization and partnered with GungHo who had Puzzles & Dragons, and they kind of did a collaborative event.

And with one employee in that effort, they just ticked the boxes on the Apple and Google, iTunes, and you know, Google Play Store, and they did $65 million in revenue in a quarter.

Wow.

And it was like, wow, that was mind blowing.

The times they have-a changed.

And it was so much fun.

I mean, we- it was, you know, we had so much success, and of course it was, you know, we nearly died, you know, multiple times and all that.

I'm forgetting all the, you know, the death defying stories.

But then eventually it just started working.

You know, the industry started working.

The consoles started working and we were- and all that stuff that was dreamed about, which took literally 10 years to build.

I mean, everyone always forgets, everyone thinks, you know, success is overnight, but you have all the confidence problems, you make all your mistakes, all the things you thought about that you thought were good ideas, a lot of them are good ideas, but they just need time to kind of get into orbit and for the magnetic attraction to start spinning powerfully.

And all the direct to retail, all that stuff.

At first it was super expensive, the company was losing tons of money, it wasn't gonna make it.

And then we shipped Skyfox, which was Ray Tobey's kind of flight game and boom, you know, we had a hit.

And there's nothing like a hit to change the fortunes of a business.

And, it was that- then the flywheel started turning and then EA grew and grew and grew.

And for the longest time was the biggest games company.

So it was an incredible ride.

But not just because of the, I mean, the success certainly helps because you have that feel good, that dopamine.

But for me personally, it was learning all the cultures of Europe.

It was taking what was EAs culture and trying to knit together and stitch together this team, we had 1200 employees and trying to get them to be like EA even though they spoke different languages and we had different, you know, kind of consumer cultures and all of that.

And it worked.

And it was- we could put the company first and we used to go to, we did things like went to Club Med and Disneyland and partied after we hit sales targets.

And it was amazing to watch the team, the company culture.

And it was the most gratifying thing.

That as I look back, I mean, we knew we were having a good time, but if I look back, it was like that was a once in a lifetime opportunity, being that in that kind of growth.

It was a special time and a special place.

So then what- how- so what happened?

Like the transition, your personal transition from there to Atari, was that the jump?

[It] was EA to Atari?

Yeah, so EA continued to get bigger and then they kind of sucked me back in after 20 something years of being in Europe.

They said, come back, we need you back in headquarters because you and a number of others have a shot at being the next CEO.

But if you're not here, you know, learning at headquarters, then, you know.

So I did feel like, not my company exclusively, but I was, you know, there from the founding days.

So I thought, well, it was my duty, I should go back and do that.

But I had no idea how different it was.

I used to go- I literally went back every month anyways and you know, you have your product review meetings and sales forecast and everything.

So I was back all the time, but I was only back for like 48 hours and I'd go back to Europe and you'd kind of go in and do your thing.

I'd had no idea the complexity of the politics and the relationships back at headquarters.I was in my own little dominion over there.

Which no one-

You had no politics in your organization.

Well, I said that to people, "We don't have politics!

We don't agree, we don't think we should have politics." And they all laughed and said, you don't have politics'cause you're running it!

There's politics under you and when you go over to America, you're not running it.

Now you're in the politics.

Wait, so this is after 20 years, so this is now, what year?

That was in the early 2000s.

Early 2000s.

So this is- who was- Is this the Riccitiello era?

Or not quite yet?

So Riccitello had left, I had survived the first wave of the Riccitello era.

And I say that because he was smart and hard charging, we all had to step up.

And it was a hard charge, but the company grew like crazy.

And so we learned a lot, and I was insecure 'cause I thought, I'm gonna lose my job.

You know, this guy was a big packaged goods guy, had launched all these big brands and I forget- I'm sure he's been to some amazing business school or whatever.

And I'm a high school dropout and I've got this big job running all of EA Europe and I don't wanna lose my favorite thing in the world.

And so I was super intimidated.

But we, you know-

Did you have a little imposter syndrome because of that?

Oh my lord.

So much.

I mean, I own it, by now.

After 20 years, after 20 years of like, growing that business to such success, still felt imposter syndrome.

Completely.

Completely!

And I kept running that.

I tried to go back to university.

I tried to go to school- go to London Business School and get some, you know, get some official teaching so I can know what I'm doing.

So the- Larry Probst had- was the CEO of the whole business.

And so yeah, I came back to work for Larry, and quite a lot of the old crew, really, Nancy Smith was running North America.

So these are people I'd literally grown up with.

I mean, I was a kid and now I'm whatever I was 50, 40 something, I guess.

And, you know, it was like being with family and it was exciting to do stuff.

But there were a lot of other people that were good, you know, they were good at their job, but they were like, they wanted the top job.

And so they were playing, doing power moves and, you know, jujitsu's and things that I just like, wow.

I wasn't, I was just thinking we're all, you know, I still- I've drunk the Kool-Aid from the past, and I have to sadly say it was very different.

I mean, I didn't appreciate, you know, how the company had changed in many ways.

It's still very successful and I, you know, it's gone through, its kind of phases like all businesses do.

But I wasn't able to keep up.

I didn't have the deft touch to do it.

And I was weirdly home- I say homesick, but I was having reverse filter shock being in the States.

I loved California, I mean, an amazing place to live up in the Bay Area, but I- there was this film that came out about the Queen, and I think it was Helen Mirren that was playing the Queen.

And I remember going down, there was a cinema down at the end of Page Mill Road.

It was a kind of a really nice cinema at El Camino and Page Mill.

I went into this big thing and it was reasonably well attended.

It wasn't a sellout and I saw the, the imagery of Britain and I saw, you know, the Queen and it was being very seriously played.

And I heard all the Americans laughing like, "oh, this, how ridiculous!' And I thought, this is the Queen!

You can't, this isn't ridiculous!

And I sort of realized, I thought, I don't know who I am, I don't know where I should be, and I'm confused.

And so-

Wow.

We made a tough decision.

And my wife, who didn't wanna move to the- my wife's British, she didn't wanna move to the States initially.

And, after three years, she was like, no way am I leaving.

I had to pull her out like a cat with her claws out.

Okay.

So you kind of flip flopped on that.

Okay.

Completely.

That's- wow.

She's like, "this California thing is great!

It's like, it's not raining every day."

Yeah.

And she just had the best friend and Key was her- amazingly her best friend from British- from University in Britain had moved over because her husband went to Stanford for business school and they ended up staying.

So she had her best friend of all time, she made all kinds of new friends and Americans, compared to the Brits, are very open to new people.

So, she just made tons of friends and had a great time.

Anyways, my kids though, started with English accents and ended up with weird American twangs, so I also thought, maybe it was time to kinda get my old kids back.

So I took everyone home.

They- I gave my wife what I call the golden ticket.

I said, if after you're being back in England, you're not happy, you open the golden ticket.

We'll go wherever you want.

So she, she reluctantly moved, and the kids for five years all cried about it.

But they, now they're pleased that they-

All right, so you're back in the UK.

So you basically, you just decided to move back and leave EA.

Unemployed.

That was a decision.

It wasn't like, I'm gonna go somewhere else.

It's like I'm going to time out, pause on things.

Nope, I just thought I'm going to get back to the UK, figure it out.

So that was a life choice for you?

That was a life choice and probably confused- I remember the ambassador phoning from Britain to say, I was going to be given this OBE, which you just mentioned on the opening remarks, which is not a knighthood.

I didn't get the right, you know, the top one.

And, I remember feeling very ordinary in California because the Silicon Valleys is rammed with talent.

Right.

And, I get the call from the Queen, I mean the Queen's representative.

Yes.

And by the way, the certificate, which is kind of signed by the Sovereign's Command.

It's quite a- to order that, you know, this person being nominated.

But anyways, I felt like they want me, I don't feel like I have anything to add to California.

It's just rammed with talent.

But, you know, Britain is still-

You felt valued?

Yeah.

I could, yeah.

So.

You know, there's something about that.

There's something about like calibrating your own, like- 'cause I feel that way about Chicago.

Like, I didn't grow up in Chicago.

I moved to Chicago.

I found my place in Chicago, and I feel like-

You found your place.

That's it.

I love that place and that place loves me.

And yeah, I really like it out here, but I sort of feel like I- kind of of care less if I was here or not.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Whereas I can hear the cheering when I get off the plane in Chicago, you know?

I know it's not happening, but I can.

But it's amazing how that, we all work to find our place, whether it's in industry or location or family or whatever it is.

It's true.

Really curious, you're employee 11 at EA, did you own part of EA?

Like did you get like, shares in the company and did they- because they, I know they split like crazy over time, right?

Amazingly, that was one of Trip's, founding principles.

He was like, our employees are gonna own this company.

So we had stock, we had stock options, and that was starting to become the new thing in Silicon Valley, which now is pretty common, but not necessarily everyone, even though I was low on the totem pole, I did get shares because at that time everyone in the company got shares.

And yeah, I mean it did, it definitely paid out, over the 25 years that I was at EA'cause the company went public and then, you know, then it grew and I was not quite half the revenue of the company, but none of the- I mean all of like, saying it in a positive way, all of the kind of senior team started getting onto the regular kind of stock option program and stuff like that.

So I had some freedom to be able to say, I needed- I wanted to work and, you know, we'd have to obviously trim down expenses if I didn't work, but it was possible.

It was a good learning for- but also for startups, which is start controlling your cash flow when you don't have income, right?

So that was a mistake, I've spent a year not controlling my- I said, and then we had to like get rid of everything cashflow negative except my family.

You know, everything else.

Get rid of all the toys, all of the, you know, all the expensive hobbies.

Stop, stop, stop.

I can't do that.

But I started investing because I thought, you know, it was interesting.

I had done a little bit and then I started meeting VCs.

I met the original VCs that invested in EA and they had some very good advice.

And then I started meeting the VCs in Europe and I thought, okay, well Europe is probably not as far ahead on VCs, so maybe my kind of Silicon Valley experience would be useful, and particularly the gaming side.

So I started pitching VCs,"Hey, you should do stuff in games and you know, I could come help you do that, I know the games industry." And I didn't know it that much about VCs, so I got a lot of lunches.

But what I came to realize later is that no, VCs don't really want to hire people because they have to then divide the pie.

They want to kind of use people and kind of use your expertise, kind of bring you in- around- bring you near the tent, but not kind of in the tent.

Because if you're not helping them raise capital or you kind of have unique access to deal flow that they don't otherwise have, they just kind of keep it, kinda keep it in house.

So that's why venture firms are typically quite small in their partnerships.

And so while I was working on that, I got- a recruiter called me to say, "Hey, would you join the board of Infogram who owned all the Atari marks?" And I said, nah, I don't wanna join the board of Infogram.

That company's really messed up.

And they said- then they called back and then they said, "Would you consider being the CEO of Atari of infogram?" And then I knew they had all the Atari marks, and then I had this terrible confusion in my heart.

I was like, "Atari needs me to be the CEO.

This is my job." And so I did something which I shouldn't have rationally done, but I did because I was so in love with Atari.

And so I found myself in Leon France, at Infogram as the new CEO, trying to turn it around.

And I have to just be honest and say I didn't.

It was very hard.

About a year into it, I had lunch with Larry, who was still the CEO of Atari- I mean Electronic Arts.

I trying to tell him the Atari Infogram story and I said, Larry, I figured something out.

My life at Electronic Arts was like being born in Disneyland, in Anaheim, and growing up and thinking it's sunny every day.

There's no crime.

There's the smell of fresh paint.

Everyone's happy and then one day you get thrown out of the gates and you're left in, you know, kind of gang wars on the streets of LA.

That's Atari.

Oh man.

That- Atari- Infogram was Comp- is Compton, huh?

To EA's Anaheim.

Exactly.

The biggest wake up call was, we had a big game release called "Alone in the Dark," which was one of the pretty good franchises.

And we had the sales forecast, and I'm kind of slightly making up the numbers because I don't remember exactly, but it was like for 3 million units.

I was like, that's great.

You know, maybe we should build, you know, we don't wanna run out, but we don't want to overshoot 'cause you have to write off that inventory if it doesn't sell.

So, you know, maybe let's try maybe just over 3 million units and they said, oh, well we don't have any lines of credit with the manufacturing companies, so we have to prepay, for any units, and we only have enough cash to build like a million and a half units.

I was like, oh my god, cash is king.

And at EA when we needed cash, we called up the treasury and said, you know, we just signed Formula One, wire over 5 million bucks!

And then you know, 48 hours later it was in the bank account.

This was my first experience of realizing, okay, because when I was kid at EA, when people were worried about cash flow, I didn't have to think about it.

Suddenly, I'm in the hot seat.

So, yeah.

It was a real tough couple of years and we ended up- I was trying to pivot the business from old school to Atari being- I wanted atari.com to be the place to go.

You would go put that in your browser and play games, and we were trying to buy Unity, which at that time was just kind of getting some traction.

I thought Unity would be like the virtual console people could develop in that environment.

We would publish, at, on the atari.com website, and we'd be a pure digital play.

The brand in the top- the list of the world's top 100 brands, it was in the top 75 and there had been no marketing money spent on the brand for like two decades.

It's an incredible brand and it, you know, so it's such positive affiliation.

I thought it was gonna be amazing.

What year is this?

This 2008?

2008 through...

so 2000 maybe?

No, maybe oh- 2009 to 2011, but yeah, roughly.

Yeah.

That zone that you're talking about.

Yeah.

So we tried and it, we- oh, it was 2008, you're right, because that was a global financial crisis.

I started right at the beginning of that year and, we needed to raise like 150 million bucks or something to turn it around and then, you know, world crashed and we couldn't- it was hard to raise it.

That is a good idea though, because everyone-

It is a good idea.

The browser, like Unity browser.

Yeah, I think that could even work now.

Which is how I met Unity and then I started- I invested in Unity.

This is how I started doing the investing piece.

Okay.

So that kind of got you back into your- the thinking of maybe I should be investing in helping people that way.

That's right.

And I'd invested in a small team that ended up doing so well.

They were called Playfish and they were building games on- inside the Facebook canvas, I think.

Yeah, they have some other games.

And I was doing the Atari CEO job.

I invested also in Kristian Segerstrale's business.

And they were like, making huge strides every month.

And I was like, I'm turning around a broken ship that's half on fire and trying to deal with inventory problems at retail and the minute retail sense that- I was trying to be the good guy and take back the stuff that wasn't selling and, 'cause that's what we did at EA, and I didn't realize I didn't have a balance sheet big enough to do that.

And so we sailed very close to bankruptcy and I thought,"Great.

My first CEO job and I'm gonna bankrupt a public company.

That sounds really good."

Yeah, that retail and distribution business is rough.

I mean, yeah they smell blood in the water.

That's- I don't miss it.

I don't miss that part of it.

I don't either.

So, I think we're just finally getting to your investment career.

We've already gone a little long, but- you have had some incredible, hits, relationships.

And, you know, I love working with you guys.

It's just so smart and supportive.

But I mean, you talked about Supercell, Playfish.

What were some of the early investments that you were involved in?

How'd they happen?

Yeah.

So, I think the very first investment in the game space I made was a company called Natural Motion, which started by making animation tools, kind of virtual data- virtual synthetic motion capture data, and some- and then they started using some of their own tools to build some of their own games, and then started having some hits.

And eventually-

CSR Racing, right?

That was- they published that.

It eventually led to CSR Racing because that was when the App Store first opened, they had a monetization strategy.

So it was one of the first big great big hits.

Dude that game was great, yeah.

And Zynga bought that company, which was fantastic, and started making you think, gosh, it's so much fun watching entrepreneurs, sweat it out and stress, you know, I can kind of go in, give 'em some good advice, buy 'em a dinner, and then go home and play with my kids!

And then, you know.

That's cool.

And so we started seeing success and it was an amazing vintage.

You know- the vintage term, used not only for wine, but also for like companies and eras and so, gaming.

Most of the big VCs were not doing much in games.

They didn't- they they did in the past and it didn't work out.

And Zynga, ironically, even though it was eventually a big success, it kind of, it came out and it was strong at first, but then tanked, and then all the VCs kind of thought, oh, this is a hits driven- The one liner was, "It's a hits driven business and we can't pick the hits, so we're not investing." And then I would counter to say, "Yes, it's a hits driven business.

You therefore build a portfolio.

Venture is a hits driven business.

You are playing the hits business." So that was the kind of confusion, they were trying to do rifle shots, picking the winner.

And of course, guess what?

It's really hard.

And so we started- I started investing on my- out of my own capital.

And then I realized that it was really hard for entrepreneurs to raise from traditional VC.

So then it made sense to say, well, maybe if we had a dedicated fund for the games industry, we, since we're kind of pretend VCs, we're really game guys, let's merge these two worlds and take our connections.

So, David Lau-Kee, who EA had acquired beause he built RenderWare and Burnout franchise.

So-

Criterion right?

It was the Criterion- exactly, it was the company that had all those.

I really enjoyed him.

He was like the smartest person I had met at EA and he had left, gone back to, well, he was living in England, so I thought, I'll meet up with David and you know, he's so smart, he'll help me figure this out.

And so we got a little group together to start raising capital and our Rolodex was really the games industry.

So we had game companies and kind of executives that had made money from the games industry invest.

And we put our first kind of couple of funds together.

But during that buildup time we started investing in Supercell, Unity, I mentioned Natural Motion, and, you know, lots of others.

I think we've done about 70 investments in total over the kind of 12 years.

But who can remember the ones that didn't work out right?

But you remember the ones like the Supercell guys were just unbelievable.

Not only the nicest people on earth, but I think the Accel ended up investing and they said it was the- and they've invested in Facebook and all kinds of- it was the fastest company to a billion dollars they've ever invested in, in history.

And you know, it was the games industry, and so suddenly the games industry was hot and now tens of billions of pounds and dollars and money have kind of poured into the games industry.

If you look at all the venture money, you know, China, the US, Europe.

It's huge.

And then accelerated by COVID.

Yeah, it's interesting.

You talk about- there was a wave of venture investing like in the pre- Zynga IPO era that kind of got hot and cooled a bit.

And then, you know, kind of right around COVID got hot again.

And it feels to me like maybe it sort of, post-COVID, it's kind of cooled a little bit.

Is it coming back?

Is it gonna get hot again?

It feels like it's coming back.

Well, let's see if it's more sensible or not.

But, I think teams are- the big shift is productivity of the teams.

They are building products that customers play with much faster- We've been through a five year period where we basically, the venture industry started funding huge game development cycles, you know.

A hundred million dollars in five years.

And even the big successful game companies don't do that.

They iterate with franchises they know are gonna work.

Very few people spend a hundred million plus on something that they're just taking a flyer on.

And because you can't afford many of those to go under, and we've seen some famous ones from, you know, big companies, not make it.

And this is one of the criticisms, but one of the realities, but people are like sick of the franchise model, but it's, you know, these are real companies with real, you know, real grandmas pension funds and they just can't throw everything against the wall and risk it all every year.

So, yeah.

Not everything could be a moonshot.

Yeah.

So it's changed, but it has- so we're in faster cycle time now, people are quicker to profitability, not necessarily quicker to unicorn status, but quicker to survivability, which is a different, a different state.

What's unicorn status?

Something that would, you know, be worth a billion or more.

Like what Supercell turned into and what Unity turned into, Supercell like three years into it.

I mean, it was just, you know, crazy.

It's more typical that a business might take 10 years.

And you might know in five years this is going to go somewhere big, and then in another five years, it is big.

It's incredible to just think that all of this history that we just talked about, from the putting it- a floppy disk in a Ziploc bag, to multi-billion dollar companies that are global, and has more revenue than any other media, that whole period of time is like, a few decades.

You know?

And you compare that against like every other energy, transportation, any- every other industry.

It's like we're just getting started.

Yep.

Yeah.

But I mean, for- I don't know how long it was from first flight to Concord.

Was it a hundred years?

That was- that's a pretty cool timeline.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alright, David, what a pleasure to hang it out.

Thanks guys.

Thanks again.

We'll see you around.

See you.

I'm telling you, they're gonna make a movie about that.

How bonkers is that?

He would just go knock on doors in Vegas.

'Hey, you got a computer?

Can I check it out?'

Yeah.

You can see the montage like, doors slamming in his face and this kid with his like, shirt tucked in and then he is just like, and they- you know- you know what I mean?

Like I could see it all.

Like someone, 'cause people will probably be like, "Yeah!

you wanna see it?" And like, you know, and you could just imagine the conversation, like them asking each other questions and showing it off and very interesting.

And that, the catalog you talked about, did you ever get any catalogs?

Yes, I definitely, I was a fan of, I'm trying to remember which catalogs that I would get though.

Like, so for me it's like, some of those nerd catalogs, like I remember in the early Bungie days, 'cause we would do like make the boxes and shrink wrap stuff, we would end up getting these like, I don't know if they were Granger or Uline?

Or Uline?

Yeah Uline!

These catalogs that had like- You could buy these like plastic storage bins that looked like they were props outta Star Wars and they were sneaking a stackable and like, I have a bunch of those in my basement.

They're so cool.

Yeah.

I still get the Uline catalog.

It's huge.

It's like very big.

It's like this big- and they just send it to me.

The one that was a big one for me was the Scholastic one.

Remember that one?

The Highlights?

It was called Highlights?

Oh, yeah.

What was in that?

I remember Highlights.

But what was- they had a catalog?

It was, yeah.

They would give it to you like three months before they would show up at your school and they would set up a bookstore in the school.

Remember that?

Oh yeah, okay.

And then you could just be looking at the book and like, oh, it was awesome.

Really?

You were into that?

I love that stuff.

There were so many cool books in there, you know?

Like Berenstain Bears?

Or was it Bernstein Bears, huh?

Yeah.

That's a Mandela effect, right?

That-

But I really liked the catalog era.

I kind of wish catalogs would come back, you know?

No.

No, no, no, no, no.

You don't like that?

Okay, you don't need this, you don't- I hate the mail, you know, the US Mail?

Oh, I see.

Whatever.

Like, I don't wanna say I hate the US Mail, but like, when I go to the mailbox, like, why do we do this still?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Like, why do we let, like- most of the stuff that comes in the mail, it's just complete trash, it goes straight in the garbage.

All the stuff.

Yeah.

It's like email though.

Email's the same way.

Okay.

And it's annoying, but it's like, I'm not killing- maybe we are killing trees with email spam.

I don't know.

But like the stuff in my mailbox just seems like a complete waste of time to everybody.

I don't know why.

Yeah.

But imagine if you got one nugget of gold.

Just one.

And it was that new Uline- he said his catalog was hardcover, you know?

Yeah.

That's like an encyclopedia.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Yeah.

Probably had to pay for it.

Oh yeah, probably, right?

You had mail out for it.

Like you'd spend like 10 bucks or something.

Okay.

Well maybe this is like a nice little business idea and just, get into the printed hardcover catalog business.

Yeah!'cause like, you know, like right now, what are you into?

You're into tennis stuff, right?

You're into tennis stuff.

What are you into?

Tennis, woodworking.

I love like, the woodworking magazines, you know, they got all these ads in there.

I love looking through that stuff.

Imagine a woodworking catalog that had all the tools, varnishes-

Yeah.

Grizzly.

Grizzly has this really big thick catalog.

It's got every- that's pretty cool.

Except it's not like- it's not like I got so much stuff, but it's not like, the super high end stuff, you know?

Well, you can get a really nice chisel, right?

You can get an okay chisel.

You need the wood- you need the woodpeckers catalog.

The woodpeckers catalog.

But I have a real question.

When I asked him about, I'm always curious- is that tactful or not tactful, to just go, "Hey, did you have stock in the company?"

I think it's okay to be curious.

It is definitely okay to be curious.

You just have to be respectful too, you know?

Yeah.

It's an interesting-'cause, like we've always-

You're very respectful, dude.

You always get shares like, you know, I- like there was people that I worked with in LA, I knew a lot of people that actually got, I think it was like half salary of a normal person?

Like in that field?

But the other half was like, stock.

Like a lot of people, like I- and you know- like, he'd be like- oh yeah, you know, I work at Amazon and like, he chose an option where he wouldn't get, you know, and you know, I've had that before in the past, but it's like with people that EA- which is like huge, right?

Or Apple, huge.

You know?

These companies and you meet someone that's in the starting like- like Bing.

Do you know what I mean?

Do you just assume or do you ask?

You gotta know if they did pretty good.

Yeah.

Right, see?

I mean- all right.

Well, thank you everybody for hanging out with us, for another episode of The Fourth Curtain.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend, and I hope you all enjoyed this episode and we shall see you next time.

See you later everybody.

Thank you for listening to the Fourth Curtain Podcast.

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