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Welcome back to the show.

My name is Ty Hildebrandt, my co host Dan Rubinstein.

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That goes a long way towards keeping this good old boat afloat.

So look, we are now squarely in the college football postseason, which means there is not as much need for Dan and I to hop on every Saturday night do the live stream recap all the action that was.

We will clearly be doing something like that after the first round of the college football playoffs.

But otherwise, if we want to keep doing these episodes, we've got some inventory to fill, which is why we're going to start running some longer form conversations.

We just we can't do that during the college football regular season.

There's too much going on and we miss it.

So this is a really good opportunity to catch back up with some of our favorite reporters and friends.

I'm excited to do that.

I'm excited for this interview today with Matt Fortuna.

So, for those who aren't familiar, Matt is a college football reporter.

He has been at a bunch of big places, notably The Athletic, ESPN dot com.

A couple of years ago, he was the president of the Football Writers Association of America and now he's off writing his own thing called The Inside Zone, which is a college football newsletter that you could find at Inside Zone mf dot com.

He also does The Independent, which is a Notre Dame podcast with our friend Pete Sampson of The Athletic, and he's a Penn Stater on top of it all, so we have a lot in common.

And it's been way too long since we had him on the show.

I went back and tried to find when it's been way too long several years.

So I wanted to bring him on today because he's been doing an awesome job reporting on the finer details of the Penn State coaching search.

He also has opinions about this latest media blitz, whatever is going on with Pete Bavaqua and Notre Dame Football, and I wanted to get his reaction to some of what's been coming out up at Michigan.

Just a story that continues to get crazier by the minute.

A lot of action right now.

Matt's been on the ground doing the hard work with his newsletter again inside zonemf dot com.

Also, before I get to the interview, yes, we've got playoff previews that we're going to drop this week.

But also of note, we are bringing back our big postseason game called Bowl Bingo.

It's entirely free to play.

You just got to go on out to play bingo dot com sign up as a free or paid member.

That'll get you access into the game in the first round.

All we do is give you a list of thirty prop bets.

All you have to do is pick six that you think are going to hit.

Over the next week of games or so.

We're going to run a new game of Bolbingo each week for four weeks running.

You'll have four separate chances to play and win.

The first round locks this Friday night, December the nineteenth, eight pm Eastern again playbolbingo dot com.

For more information.

Let's run the interview, joining me now for a little Sunday chat.

Who knows what we'll talk about.

Lord knows, there's nothing going on around the world of college football.

I want to welcome in Matt for Tuna to the soliverbel Sir, welcome back.

How are you busy?

But great?

The most wonderful time of the year unless you're in an arbor and a few other locales right now.

I mean, it's just I can't think of a week like this one in the college football coaching carousel slash just news world.

It's just been one thing after another, and every time you think you've seen it all, something else breaks.

It's been truly unbelievable.

So for those that aren't familiar, Matt runs the Inside Zone newsletter takes inside the world of college football as only he knows how.

As it says on the masthead of his website, here is what I love about your reporting.

I know you break news.

I know you've broken news for a long time.

But what I find amazing about what you do.

And I'm not just here trying to gas you up or anything.

Stop stop, but you have a knack for always finding an extra nugget something in addition to the story, as it's been reported, that gives it a little bit of flavor, gives it a little bit of nuance, and makes it super interesting.

And that is the reason that I wanted to bring you on today.

Ward knows, We've got a million things that we could talk about, but I wanted to start by talking about this Penn State coaching search.

The bait for me was something that you posted over the last week after finding out that Matt Campbell was going to be the higher at Penn State.

You were the first one I saw who posted that Penn State may have tried to reach out to him earlier in the process but actually had the wrong contact information for you.

So I want to get to that.

But why don't we do like a reset here?

From the Matt Fourtuna perspective, what did this just generally speaking, Penn State coaching search look like?

How did it start, how did it end up at Matt Campbell?

What details, if any, can you share on that process?

From your perspective, You.

Know, it's funny and it tells you what a crazy week it is that as you started that intro about nuggets and whatnot.

I thought you were going to mention something near and dear to your heart.

We're involving Notre Dame in the acc and breakdown in communication between those two sides.

I'm sure we'll get to that later this EPO.

So to go back to Penn State and again for those listening ties, come on my show.

I've come on his.

We have a very weird cross Like all of us are Penn State grads.

He's an ur Dame fan, I've an ear Name podcast.

I believe we're both Giants and Yankee fans as well.

So like in some ways, I guess I designed my website with this very specific audience of mind ty for people like you.

It's like the ven diagram between Matt Fortuna and the solid verbal universe isn't a perfect circle, but it's not that far.

Off exactly exactly.

So Penn State coaching Search, Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because with the benefit of hindsight, you look at this coaching carousel and you look at some of the schools that were in the market for coaches.

Virginia Tech, UCLA, Auburn.

These are all schools that probably enter this year knowing that there's a decent chance.

We will not end it with the guy we started with.

Penn State, on the other hand, was the preseason number two team in the country, a team that was, for all intensive purposes, a play away from playing for the next championship just a year ago.

They put all the resources into this.

Being the year where they compete for and win a national championship.

They were I'll fall on the sword here, Mike pick to win the national championship this year over Alabama, which I guess technically is alive, even though I don't feel good about that part either right now.

So they lose a heartbreaker to Oregon, and for those who have followed this program for a long time, look at that.

Another top five or top ten loss in the big game where they just couldn't close.

They'll move on.

They'll go ten and two, eleven and one.

We'll see if they can maybe get a rematch and do better the next time.

Right, There's always next year, There's always the next game.

Instead, this ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back.

They lose to a terrible UCLA team on the road, the UCLA team that had a new head coach, a new offensive coordinator and a new defense coordinator for that game alone.

Okay, I guess ten and two.

If they're lucky, they lose at home too, a six and six Northwestern team twenty two to twenty one.

And you could just tell watching that game on TV, hearing James Franklin post.

Game, it was over.

And I don't like, it was just done.

And I understand people who maybe look at just the raw numbers from AFAR and say, why would you fire a coach who had you win all these games over all these years and just had a couple bad weeks.

Totally reasonable and rational take to have.

But it was over, period for both sides.

And I think the fact that James Franklin got hired almost immediately Virginia Tech and went back to being James Franklin good for him.

I think he'll kill it there.

Relatively speaking, Penn State, I think needed a new voice.

I mean, the one story that kept getting conveyed to me throughout that day was Drew Aller, the quarterbacking captain goes down with a season ninety injury, and not one player even runs off the sideline to help him up.

Like not that they don't like Durreller.

It's just like the program was lifeless by that point three straight losses.

It's over time to start from scratch.

The search, you know, went fifty four days and as Iowa State fans will say, and ours went fifty four seconds because we replaced Matt Campbell that.

Night they announced Jimmie Rodgers before likes Matt Campbell.

It was crazy wow, And I'm like, did I miss the connection?

Here?

Is?

He?

And Alum like, I don't know how they got landed on that that quickly.

But that's neither here nor there.

You know, Pat Craft has talked a big game since he's gone to Penn State.

He's done a lot of big things right, whether it's a stadium renovation, the name on the field, moving to Adidas.

He's he's ruffled a lot of feathers there, mostly for the good, but you know, it's been a jarring of reality, I think for some locals there, and you know, firing James Franklin and basically saying, you know, we're not gonna sell for anything less than a national championship.

You put a target on your back.

And we all have fun with search firms, making fun of search firms and their necessity on shows like Mining yours.

This is why you need a search for because I think a lot of the miscommunications that broke down throughout this coaching search probably could have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner had you add an intermediary to tell you what's real.

And what's not.

As it relates to Matt Campbell, Matt Campbell only recently hired a full time agent.

There were others out.

There in the industry, and I won't name names who were, you know, essentially acting on his behalf, maybe not in great faith.

And Pat Craft is very close with one of these individuals, reached out to him about both Matt and a number of this individual's clients early on and was basically told Matt's not interested.

And that was that.

And fast forward, you know, seven weeks later, their deal with Cloonnie Sataki falls apart thanks to Crumble Cookies, which is now on the verge of bankruptcy.

If I'm reading that correctly, you're welcome.

I guess as a Penn State cred an intermediary who's close with Matt Campbell and Patrick Kraft called up past basis said look, I'm here if you need anything by the way, like why haven't you called Campbell yet?

I think there might be something there, and that story gets really relayed to Campbell.

They're able to essentially break bread and explain why they were calling him as their you know, twelfth choice or whatever it was, and they both both sides got over that really quickly.

They liked each other.

I believe they spoke Wednesday.

They met in names on Thursday.

He was hired on Friday, which is how a lot of coaching searches do work.

Once you find your guy, it's that's what happens when you fire your guy at the end of the season.

So in the end, Penn State ends up with the guy.

I think that a lot of fans probably wanted all along.

It took a wine winding road to get there.

Terry Smith stays on staff, so you please a lot of people with that.

Patrick Craft has audio leaked, which again I think whoever leaked it, the intent that this individual had, whoever was, had the opposite effect.

While Craft had to apologize for his language, anyone who knows Kraft knows that is crafted his element.

He did not talk down twenty one at Penn State or on that roster and I think Penn State fans, who you know, had a lot of skepticism about him due to the nature of this search, were immediately won over by hearing how passionate he was and by the fact that a day or two later he landed Matt Campbell.

So all's well, that ends well, the results are the same.

People who like process over results probably aren't fans with the way this search went.

However, the result is one that I think most Penn State fans are happy with.

Let me pull a little bit on that thread of maybe the initial approach of Matt Campbell being told he's not interested and then obviously this circling back around.

How does that happen?

I mean, not to give too much of the game away, and I know you got to you know, protect sources and methods and all that, but like, how does that sort of happened?

Good question?

I think you know believe none of you know, none of what you hear, in half of what you see or whatever is the line, particularly when it comes to coaching searches.

Again, Pat Kraft kept a very tight circle.

It was three other senior staffers who were involved with him with his coaching search.

I believe they use a search room for background checks, only they did not have them, you know, conduct a full search on their behalf.

And I think a lot gets lost in translation.

I mean, look at the Clonie Sataki situation.

You know, I had heard confidentially very early on that, you know, assuming like the Mike Elchos and Kaitlyn the Bores of the world, stay put, this is going to be their guy.

And you know, I personally, just you know, as an objective observer, I could see that being a boomer bus higher right.

I think Colonie's one of the most underrated coaches in the country.

I think their genuine culture concerns, particularly for a guy who's never worked east of the Mountain time zone.

So that was done.

I mean I was told Colonne Sataki was contacting staff, he was telling recruits do not sign with BYU on Wednesday because I might not be there.

He really sold himself to Penn State.

And again, if there's a search firm involved, or if there's another you know, crisis or communications expert involved here, I think for both Colonie's sake and Penn State's sake, you know, I think it was very naive on both sides.

To think that that wouldn't get out the week of the Big twelve title game, because you're already behind the eight ball on that point in terms of when you haven't hired a coach.

And do you think Colnnie's Stuckey really wanted to be Lane kiffened by his alma mater and his church, which is essentially would have happened there at BYU.

No, he ends up staying.

They give him a new package, and Penn State's back at square one.

And again they moved quickly after that.

But I was talking to people very involved there after Colonnie, you know, pulled the rug out from under them.

It was not a great situation.

The mood was very, very dark.

I think there was a thinking of they're going to be stuck with Brian Dabel, who, to his credit, won over Penn State during the search process.

But I think if you have a fifty four day search, you get publicly left at the altar by your main guy, and then you end up with the recently fired coach of the New York Giants.

We've seen students at that school do a lot of stupid stuff when they get angry.

It would not have shocked me if we saw a similar situation unfold in reaction to a potential Brian Dable higher.

So I'm glad cooler heads prevailed.

I'm glad they got their guy.

Matt Campbell.

Seems like a natural fit there, and now we see if the guy who's had an act for doing more or less can now do more and more.

Before they got to Kilani Sataki, because as he said, this was a fifty four day process, it took forever.

It felt like it took forever.

I'm sure from the inside out it felt like it was even longer.

What was the process per year knowledge before they got to that point, because you know they were It's like me talking about Matt Rule, not necessarily because I wanted Matt Rule as the next coach at Penn State, but just because it seems like there were a lot of obvious points of intersect there and it had been relayed to me and people who listened to the show know I've said this a million times, but like five or six years ago, that if there is an opening, it's going to be Rule, which is why I went with it, and I think a lot of people did.

But clearly that didn't work the case for Rule, if there ever was one, bottomed out relatively quickly.

My understanding after that point was they kind of cast a wide net.

They wanted to talk to as many people as they could.

They talked to some people in high places to see who they might be able to attract.

They got none of those guys, and it was only at that point that they got to Kilani Sataki.

Is that an.

Accurate depiction of what you've been told or how you have understood the search?

Or is there more nuance there that I should know of?

Yeah?

Loosely, I don't.

I mean, you mentioned five or six years ago, everyone would have wanted to Rule.

Part of the attraction.

Obviously, him and Patrick Kraft worked together at Temple Family Still Vacation in the off season.

I think that was you know, when Penn State fired James Franklin.

As happy as a lot of people were to see that era end, I think a large portion of the fan base that's educated on the situation was like, well, we're just going to hire a Rule now, aren't we?

And is he really an upgrade?

And exactly I don't think they were ever.

Actually, I mean, I don't want to say ever.

I don't think they would have hired him even if he didn't sign that twelve million dollar year extension.

You know, obviously there are a lot of ties there.

I think people above Patrick Kraft were not in favor of hiring Matt Role.

The three big names as far as like the big swings that you kept hearing out of the Penn State side were Elko, Debor, and Freeman.

I think they knew that probably two of those guys were unlikely.

In the case of Elco, Kraft tried to hire him at Temple way back when, when I believe he was the DC at A and M.

And he's a Jersey guy, his wife's from Jersey.

You can talk all you want about resources and bidding wars and whatnot.

I do think it's easier to win national championship at Penn State that it is at Texas A and M.

Now M runs a table here and wins it all.

I'll eat my words gladly, but I do think he's a better fit at Penn State.

He's a Northeast guy.

And you know, if M loses in the first round of Miami, which they might, and this guy ends on a two game losing streak, including the loss to rival Texas.

You know, I think I'm not saying he's in danger, but I think like the love affair this fan base has with him will calm down immediately.

People at A and M told me after the fact they were surprised that I'll co opted to stay and sign that extension when he did, because they thought that was a realistic A list candidate that Penn State could get.

They did not get him, you know, for their sake, it was a good thing they were let down early, because I think there were that was in November.

Maybe I remember being at Wrigleyfield, I think at the Michigan Northwestern game when that story broke that he was resigning.

So again, you've still got a lot of time on your hands till the end of the season to hire your guy.

And I think I think after Elko was off the board, that's when the Sataki you know, okay interests reached its crescendo and they had this thing quietly done in their mind for I believe a matter of weeks.

As there was there was a lot of speculation, again just among the overly cynical college football fan base that is also aggressively online, that Kalani Sataki like we've seen other coaches do in the past, was maybe using interest from one school to get a better situation for himself at a place that he knows and loves in byu right, there was a lot of that speculation out there, but from my perspective, that was sort of blunted by the fact that, as he said earlier, there were rumors that he was telling people there was a little bit more smoke here.

It wasn't exactly one guy just using it solely for leverage.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I mean, obviously it worked to his favor if that's what he was trying to do.

I don't think he was trying to If you think that way, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it, because nine times out of ten that's how these things work.

Sure, But Penn State, which you know, despite some questionable moments throughout this search, is it's not a group of dummies.

They thought it was over, Like they had him, they had agreed to everything.

Kilane had really really really put himself out there with them about how badly he wanted this job.

And I mean it only ends up saying he only ends up saying once it leaks and again, I don't know what either side's plan was to kind of combat that once it inevitably did leak because you know, by you beat sex Tech, they're in the College Fotball Playoff, they're playing for a national championship.

Yeah, you can't leave then, the same way Lank Kiffin can't leave all miss right in theory, and I just I wonder what both sides were thinking as far as how are we going to close the deal officially, because we both really like each other, but there are circumstances beyond both of our controls right now that probably will dictate.

Clonie Stain.

What was the draw for Sataki?

Good question.

I think it was a matter of.

What, you know, like a lot of these guys who are at a I don't want to call it yo lower level, but it's a school that just got into the Big twelve a couple of years ago.

You probably make more money at Penn State.

You're in the Big ten, so you have a seat at the table as far as the future of college athletics are concerned.

And you know, he's.

Also a guy some more with I mean, I don't want to get too detailed here, however, think about why he lost his starting quarterback on the eve of the season, right, and how he has to recruit to that with every single guy.

I mean, there are we talk about academic restrictions at some place, there are some serious restrictions among the pool of players that you could possibly recruit to come to YU.

And I think if you're a football coach, and a football coach who's been in one place like that for more than a decade, now, you're wondering to yourself, what can I do with all the toys I have at my disposal here at a place like Penn State where they fill up a one hundred and seven thousand seat stadium every single week no matter how good or bad they are.

So they end up on Matt Campbell.

Whether or not that higher falls off the back of a truck, I guess is a conversation for another day.

But they do end up with Campbell at long last, who I think we would agree is a pretty good fit at Penn State.

One of the other interesting nuggets that you reported was the war chest that they are giving him, both in terms of anil spend in terms of assistant coaching spend.

When you and I texted about it, this is the thing that you mentioned.

I think he said it was like an eye watering number that they are throwing here into the contract to try and get Campbell not only what he wants, but maybe Penn State too, wherever Paccraft thinks they should be.

Did I see thirty million in nil spend and seventeen million for the assistant pool something like that.

Matt, Yeah, No, that's accurate.

And you know what's funny about it is Campbell re upped with Iowa State this summer.

If I'm not mistaken, and I remember when the terms came out, I tweeted something to the effect of, like, there's not a greater bargain in college sports than Matt Campbell at five million dollars a year.

Not that that's not a lot of money, but they're guys making more than twice as much, you know, Matt Rule's case, who probably haven't done as good of a job as Matt Campbell has done at Iowa State.

So I don't think he's a guy who was like driven.

Or motivated by money.

Not.

I mean, we all are, we're humans.

But you know, he's turned down interest from bigger jobs that would have paid him a lot more money.

In the past and the irony being like he finally hires a full time agent and the agent knew he had all the leverage in this case because Penn State was, you know, desperate, and you know, I think without an agent, not that you'd ever enter a situation like that.

This deal probably gets on Thursday night and said Friday night.

I know they were negotiating over the fire points over about a twenty four hour span, but this is you know, Penn State is all in.

I mean they were all in this year.

They paid Jim Knowles three million dollars to become their defense coordinator, which was unheard of.

They are all in when it comes to staff pay, and they're all in on Anil.

And I think Craft always, from my understanding, Craft always wanted to be all in on Anil.

And James Franklin.

I don't know.

I don't know if people who don't follow Penn State on a regular basis can appreciate just how old school James Franklin was sometimes to his own detriment.

I mean, there were there were some big time players that they could have been in the mix for this offseason transfer wise who went elsewhere because James Franklin was not aggressive enough because Sames Franklin did not want to disrupt locker room chemistry.

And in some ways that's like quaint and out of date.

In other ways it's admirable to each his own.

But at the end of the day, I think, now it's like, nope, we're going to win a championship.

This is how you win a championship in the year twenty twenty five, Matt Campbell, here's what we're going to give you to help you pursue those championship goals.

Well, even some of that emerged in the leaked audio.

Yes, and Dan and I talked about it this week, how Franklin had more of a policy of paying everybody on the roster, whereas there are obviously other theories out there for how you should a lot those funds.

So I don't know if this is out there or not, but you know, I'll say it now, one of those people they probably could have gotten had they been as aggressive as others were.

Dylan Daneman.

What did Dylan do to Penn State and effectively the James Franklin era.

He ended it.

He ended it.

Yeah, So there's irony in that, is there?

Not?

I thought, if you could get past some of the eye popping language of the craft audio from a purely like Newsy standpoint, I thought it was pretty funny to hear the quiet part out loud about how they essentially tampered with Carnell Tate and how Miami is currently tampering with Tony Rojas.

Again.

People all college football day to day will not be surprised to hear any of this, But to hear, even if it was illegally recorded, to hear someone in that seat say that out loud in front of his player pretty interesting in my mind.

So we'll see where such pursuits go under this coaching regime, because it's certainly going to look different, and it's got to look different, right, I mean, Sinny Day came and went and you had a two man recruiting class.

Yeah, all right, Well, let me close the book on the Penn State thing here with just one more question.

Where does it go from here?

And how do you think just picture it looks different as compared to the way it has looked.

Obviously, a new personality, different vision for how the program should be built, if only on the player personnel side, roster management side of things, as you know, we're kind of discussing a little bit here, but what does Matt Campbell, in your view, give Penn State that Penn State did not have under James Franklin.

I think in the most elementary form of comparison, he wins big games, which James Franklin didn't.

And that's not everything.

You got to take care of your business, and James Franklin was really good at that, and that should be not taken for granted.

But Matt Campbell beat Texas to out of the last five times he played them in the Big Twelve, beat Oklahoma to out of the last five times he played in Big twelve, beat Miami last year in the Pop Tarts Bowl.

They punch up, and again, it's a bit of different mentality when you're at a place that has all the tools that Penn State has now.

But I think he brings inspiration in the sense of you go into these games if you're a Penn State player, a Penn State fan without that feeling of dread.

And I understand some of that is just human nature after twelve years of one regime, But you go into well next your schedule is actually very easy, so there is a path there to make a run very early on if this roster is put together correctly.

But you go into the next time you play Ohio State not feeling the sense of here we go again.

If you're tied with Oregon late in a game, you're not thinking, how are we going to blow this right?

It's different, and I think there's value in that.

But more importantly, there's value in a guy who's not just them more with less of Iowa State, but did it at the back level as well at Toledo.

That I know from speaking to other people who have talked to Matt Campbell about jobs over the years, has been maybe the most biggest separator between him and maybe some other guys who are hot names, is this isn't a guy who just found the right place at the right time.

He's got a proven track creck of doing this at multiple stops.

In fact, the fact he took the Iowa State job was eye opening at the time because Iowa State is a losing his program in the history of the Big Twelve, and Matt Campbell had other options, like what did he see in them?

So I think he's very strategic with how he goes about his business, with where he chooses where he wants to work with the hires he ultimately makes, and it'll be fascinating to see over the long term how that plays itself out at Penn State.

But again this is.

A separate conversation for a separate time.

But part of the.

Controversy, if you will, around Conference Championship Week in this past week, was the uneven conference schedule.

Say in the ACC, say in the SEC, go.

Look at Ohio State schedule next year.

Goliic at Penn State schedule next year.

I think I won't say it'll be a disappointment because you don't know how the roster is going to look, but Penn State might have a higher over undertotal next year in the Ohio State just based on those differing conference schedule, and Ohio State also opens at Texas, but you know, just the big ten opponents alone, it's almost like they're playing in two different conferences, two different leagues, because Penn State schedule next year is very very like they go to Michigan, by the way, which will be interesting both because of Crafts comments.

Well, I guess the cheating part was proven accurate in a way he didn't intend for it too, and which Trew Michigan wiultimately have as their coach next year.

I mean, it's a weird state of affairs now for many of us who have followed the sport for a good long time when you've got a high profile coach firing, a high profile coach hiring, and you can just sort of assume without much risk that they'll be fine next year.

They'll be fine.

I mean, the schedule works to their favor, for sure.

But just from a roster standpoint, it wasn't all that long ago you let go of a big name, there's a lot of unease with where the program is headed.

Next you lose your roster, you're basically hitting the reset buttoning starting over.

It's like a two or three year span of time before you can get it back to where it needs to be.

That is no longer the case because of the transfer portal, and it's thank you, k Yeah, well right, I mean, Kurt Signetti is now going to be I think the new standard in this world.

And clearly it has not worked out as well for everybody who tries to build as quickly as he did through the portal.

But the point stands that we have seen it at Indiana We've seen it at other places where if you just are really smart about how you're recruiting, and maybe, in the case of Matt Campbell and the staff he's putting together, if they've got that wherewithal and the scouting side of things, they can put together together a roster relatively quickly.

I e.

Try to retain what you have, what you can retain from the current roster, but go out and build with what is going to be out there in the portal, which seems to add board names each year.

I think Penn.

State's going to be okay given the schedule, so that'll be a really really interesting twist, to say the least.

And I know a lot of those guys the minute Matt Campbell told them he was leaving, say can I come with?

Yeah?

And if he brings Rocco back with him, who's say you no, a Penn State the best quarterback they've had since Trace mcsorely, and I'm not sure there's even a debate about that.

It be better than mostly, So I think that would work out well for everybody.

You bring up the Michigan thing and full disclosure.

As you and I were about to hit go the emails started flying.

I know you posted out to Twitter about the charges now that are going to be filed against Sharon Moore.

This case took a really dark turn.

At first.

It started out as one of those things that kind of, let's be honest, people are very quick to make jokes about it online.

This is college football, this is what college football fans buy and large do.

But then there was that moment where it got very serious, very quickly and took a dark turn, and everybody was like, oh, okay, yeah, maybe we should all take a beat here.

We had heard these rumors for a couple of weeks and this wasn't necessarily a surprise.

Certainly the way that things have gone that has been surprising in its own right, but just that they would move on from Sharon Moore.

This was sort of out there.

From hearing those rumors to get into the point where they let go of Sharon Moore.

Can you talk me through maybe like your thinking upon hearing that this was a possibility then to you know, this weird conclusion that we find ourselves at now.

Yeah, to backtrack a little bit, I mean, the rumors really heated up after they lost to Ohio State, and my thinking was well is that convenient, right, Like sure, yeah, coach loses rivalry game and people want to get rid of him.

Full disclosure, And I printed this in my story earlier this week, I filed a Freedom of Information Act request to Michigan.

I want to say after the Oklahoma game, because I had heard back then from people I trust, like they're.

Looking into them.

That's week two.

It was after week two.

It was in September.

Yeah, I want to say it was that because I want to say it was when he was suspended.

I'd have to go back and look at the emails and like to this day, Michigan still stalling, right, Well, he'd be more specific, Well, we're gonna have to charge you this and we're gonna have to send it to a home adren And I'm like, well, no, you could email.

I don't want to get buried in the legal east.

That's not what listeners want to hear.

But long story short, as a reporter, my radar was certainly up by you know, the way they kind of stonewalled me, and from my understanding, others as well.

So he gets I'm boarding a flight actually on the way back from Las Vegas a day earlier.

I saw Ward Manuel have a lunch right across from me, so clearly he's not out there if he knows he's got to fire his coach.

The next day, and I'm boarding a flight, I think I see the ESPN story first firing him for cause.

I'm like, oh, guess rumors were true.

Can't use my phone to make phone calls, but thankfully the Wi Fi worked on the flight, and I'm texting people and trying to piece together what I can and Dan Wetzel of ESPN now kind of comes out of nowhere, at least at the time, with here's a statement from Saleine police saying like they tracked down trow More entertained them.

And you're like, wait, what I thought?

This was?

Like, you know, an affair but not good, cost you your job, but you know, we're all human people make mistakes and eventually you move on.

It took a very dark turn very quickly, Like I had something written and I was ready to post while flying just about where Michigan goes from here, and once that came out, I'm like, all right, this has taken on a completely different tone and whatnot.

And yeah, I say this, I relay this story.

I've relayed this anecdote previously, but I'll say it again here because I think it's kind of a glimpse into what Michigan is dealing with here, the severity of it.

Two years ago, the Connor Sallien's story breaks and it's the biggest thing in the world at the time.

And I remember I'm up all night on the phone writing, just trying to piece together what's what.

We had a newborn at the time.

My wife gets up in the middle of the night to feed the new born and she says.

What are you doing up?

And I'm honey, you're not gonna believe this, like big scandal Michigan Jim Harbaugh.

And she's like and she's did he abuse someone?

No?

No, no?

Did he sexually assault anyone?

No?

No, no, So what's so big about it?

And I'm like, sign stealing and she's she looked exactly words here.

Who gives a ship go back to sleep?

And you know what, that's why it's nice to have people outside of this circle that we live in to bring perspective and reality.

And I say all that now to say, no, this is like something that would have gotten her attention of Okay, yeah, this is serious.

This is real life stuff.

This is stuff you know, worth stressing and worrying about, because that's the train that Michigan just you know, went from going from all shagans they dealt with before to what they're dealing with now, which is obviously incredibly, incredibly serious.

A lot of lives are forever ruined by what alleged is alleged to have happened.

And you know, there are multiple different layers to this conversation, right like, it's yeah, who's Michigan hires a coach?

Where's Michigan goes university?

Right now?

I mean, they don't have a president, and this has brought shame and embarrassment to them in a way that allegedly cheating on the football field simply doesn't.

Like, this is a world class university that's got arguably the biggest brand in the world.

And you've heard Jake Budd and other prominent alums out there say since like, yeah, like you cannot wear this block m with the same amount of pride today, plain and simple.

Like this is different.

And there's that conversation, and there's a conversation of what you know, to show mor Get the help that he probably needs, what happens with his wife and three little girls, what happens to the young woman who's alleged to have been you know, whose house he allegedly broke into, and what happens with her life.

I mean, just so many lives of quote unquote ordinary people have been upended by this, and you know, of non ordinary people football.

I mean, there are people on that staff with opportunities go elsewhere and elected to stay out of loyalty to show more and obviously that was was not rewarded with the actions of this past week.

And you know, again this is a reporter in me thinking out loud here, but you know what I'm looking for, like the signs, like what did we miss or is there something else that has happened in that programmer, in this guy's life in the past that's been swept under the rug, Like what stuff of this big I feel like just doesn't happen, you know, in a vacuum?

Where were the signs?

Where did Michigan miss the signs?

Why was Michigan comfortable with handing the job to this guy at thirty six years old when he clearly was not prepared to handle a job of this magnitude.

I mean, I just there's so many questions we're never going to get all the answers.

It's a tragic story on a human level for many humans, and you know, I guess everyone's just kind of left to pick up the pieces from here.

Let me make the somewhat awkward transition to the football side of us.

Okay, there's two layers to the story.

Everybody listening to this understands as much.

The football side of this.

Michigan now needs a new coach.

It's a big job, one of the top jobs in the country.

I think we can agree on that point, regardless of how people feel about Michigan, whether they like Michigan or not, it's one of the biggest brands.

As you said, it's certainly one of the top jobs.

Clearly there is some unease, I would say, uncertainty about state of the athletic department.

Maybe from an outsider's perspective, what it's like to work at the university is a situation what get involved in.

So with all that being said, the names that I have just seen reported from whoever we read online, those are all very very big names because this is a very very big job.

Whether it's Kaitlin de Borr, whether it's a name like a Kenny Dillingham, Brian Kelly, if we want to bring him out of retirement.

I've seen Marcus.

Retirement, all the big names.

Who have you heard?

Who do you think makes sense?

What do you think their next move is?

Just on the football side.

You know, it's funny to see the Boor's name thrown out there because I wrote in the lead up to the National title game two years ago, which was the Boor at Washington against Michigan.

Everyone knew Harball was not going to be back one way or another.

I wrote, at one point or another, Hey are we looking at kellna Bor coaching against his future employer and end up being the timeline I think worked out where Alabama opened first because of Saban, They hired Bor late January, Harball leaves and Michigan just promotes Troll Moore.

That would be my call.

That would be the guy I put the full court press on.

I think he's really good.

I don't know if he's movable or not.

I mean, people, he isn't the second because he's literally coaching a team that's chasing a championship, and personally speaking, I think they beat Oklahoma and lose to Indiana, but you know, maybe they go on a run here.

I don't know.

Penn State tried.

The way it was conveyed to me was the boor and this could have been him just letting them down lightly.

But hey, appreciate it.

But like, I'm already at a place where my every moves judge by my predecessor, I don't necessarily need to go to another place where the Paternos are going to do the same to me.

Not that it's a like for like comparison, but again that's what he conveyed, or his representatives can fade to Penn State the problem and you know, this is a first world problem.

But the problem with the.

Bor is it's a pretty open secret secret in the industry that whenever Lincoln Riley does leave USC, and to his credit, he peers have gotten that ship back on the right track.

I think that had a strong ear.

But whenever he does leave USC or USC moves off from him.

That athletic director Jen Cohen is the one who hired Kaylen a boor at Washington and would hire Kaylen Niboor back at USC.

You know most of his roots are on.

That side of the country versus the South or the Midwest, although he does have some Midwest experience at Eastern Michigan and Indiana.

But that's the guy I would put the full court press on.

Jed Fish is a popular name who I think absolutely would take the job.

I do wonder if he's by association, not that he's guilty of anything or did anything, but I just think that school is ready for a clean break of anyone who ever worked with Jim Harbaugh.

Jedfish worked with Jim Harbaugh while he was there.

I wonder if that hurts his candidacy.

Most of the names that you would normally throw out for this job had either got a new jobs already or signed extensions, right like Clark Lee, Eli Drinkwitz, Brent Keye, al Loot.

I'm not sure he would have been a candidate, Like a lot of coaches got paid Mike lco So I don't know who ultimately is there.

Like do you look at a guy like Tony Elliott, who, if nothing else, will not embarrass your program, right?

I mean, he's been the opposite of what Michigan's out with any as far as off field concerns, with the way he's handled all the tragedies that happened at Virginia and this year putting forth a pretty damn good football team.

I don't know I'm thinking.

Out loud here, I will say, like, for as many questions as like me and you have about like World War Manual be there, who was making this higher of Michigan's last four head coaching hires, the only one that was a good hire with him Harball, that was made without a full time athletic director.

I do think at some of these blue bloods and Michigan's among that very very small group, the idea of being the head coach or CEO at that program is so strong that you don't have as many questions about who am I reporting to, what's this look like, what's that look like?

I think, not that it's not important, but I do think the chance to become the Michigan football head coach is so such a strong title and feeling to so many people who got into this business that they're willing to almost overlook, you know, some of the finer details to have that job.

Whereas I'm not gonna throw out a names because I don't want to sound insulting, but like ninety percent of the programs.

If they're calling you up to interview, You've got a lot of questions about how they operate and is it a better job than what you have right now?

Man, Okay, well, we'll follow it.

We'll see where they go next.

Before I let you go.

You are the co host of The Independent with our friend Pete Samson, where you talk about Notre Dame.

Notre Dame has also been in the news.

People who listen to this show are probably sick of hearing me talk about the ways in which Notre Dame maybe was treated relative to Alabama, maybe to Miami.

I'm not necessarily making the case for Notre Dame over any of those teams, but definitely the process has very much come under the gun here with certainly with respect to Pete Bavaqua, who has gone on something of a media tour earlier this week where he was doing interviews with the likes of Dan Patrick.

He obviously gave a press conference.

You and I.

Interestingly enough, we're going to record before the press conference, and I said to you, maybe we should hold off, Like, is he going to leave the acc what is he going to do?

He has been on this war path of sorts now against the College Football Playoff Committee, not so much against any have the teams in the ACC, but the ACC with how he felt they mistreated Notre Dame as one of the primary business partners.

There's a lot going on here right now.

I still have a hard time and I root for the team looking at this as anything other than sour grapes.

You know, and Dan Patrick asked him about it, and he understood the question.

But to me, and certainly for most who listen to this show, I find it very hard to look at what has gone on over the last week, even if he has a point on some of these things, to not look at this as sour grape.

Do you share that opinion?

Yeah?

And look, I was in Vegas all week.

The College fooall Hall of Fame dinner is there.

There are some other seminars there.

It's about as close to a full house as you can get as far as seeing a bunch of football coaches and athletic directors under one roof.

And that was absolutely the prevailing people back with Marcus Streaming were not there, but that was a prevailing sentiment of like when I talk.

To people, like what what are they doing?

Yeah, Like it's like now that you always talk about the twenty four hour role after a winter loss.

Like, I think they were a sympathetic figure Sunday into Sunday night, maybe in the Monday morning, but then to complain all day Monday and then complain all day Tuesday.

It got old very quickly.

And I think, you know, hindsight's twenty twenty, of course, and personally, I think they should have been in over Alabama.

That's just my personal opinion.

I think both Miami and Nerd Aime should have been in.

Didn't happen?

You move on?

I think, yeah, the Bowl game is absolutely contributed to a lot of the negative outside negative noise as well.

They did not do any campaigning before Sunday.

And again I'm playing the result here clearly, because it's not like I was saying they got to get out there in real time, although maybe they should have, or maybe I should have said it, like I saw someone from Miami out of Vegas who said, look, I basically spent the last seven weeks sleeping to Mario Chris Bo's office, going over talking points, coming up with ideas we could present to the nation about why Miami deserves to be in the Playoff.

Remember, Miami was number eighteen in the first week of the College Football Playoff rankings.

By the sixth and final week, they were in.

And it's not like they had a murder's row of opponents from the time they went eighteen to the time they found themselves in the field.

Sark for all of his complaining, and I know it didn't work, but Sark was fighting publicly about Texas's inclusion.

Greg Sanki certainly was on behalf of Alabama, as was Alabama themselves.

They sent out bullet points and talking points immediately after the SEC title game to the national media saying here's our case and as the Vanderbilt and again, I wone could go about their business the way they want to.

But like Marcus Freeman was on The Today Show the week of.

The final rankings, I think maybe Wednesday, Tuesday, Wednesday before that's Sunday Show would have been a great opportunity on a show where like a lot of people watch, to say, hey, we're one of the twelve best teams of the country.

Here's why.

Even if that might not have been what he was on the show for.

But it's NBC.

They're a business partner of in our Dames.

I'm sure they could have figured something out, like there were Again I'm planning the result here, but I just think there were so many missed opportunities over the course of the last six weeks.

And I think, and I'm not saying this is like morally right, but I think Nor Dame was very.

Naive to think they were safe the whole time, because people who've covered the sport long enough, people who've covered this crazy selection committee long enough, we still can't figure out if there's much rhyme or reason to what they trot out there every week.

And I think you need to always be on guard for a surprise or two.

And I mean just speaking here candidly.

I talk to people in the football office that previous Tuesday night when Alabama jumped them, who are very nervous.

So this idea of like we were wronged, How dare you I get it?

Like as far as like being emotionally crushed by it, I just like, do you not exist in like college football twenty twenty five?

Do you not understand all the crazy stuff happens, Like, oh, we're not going to go to a bowl now we're mad?

Like I think that's just a hard sentiment for the rest of the nation to get behind, and they would have been behind Notre Dame had they stopped talking after Monday morning.

You know, the counterpoint to what Pete Bavakua has said, just playing devil's advocate here, everyone knows that you're for the team.

It seems as though a big part of his case against the College Football Playoff was we were above Miami.

We were you know, even in the driver's seat.

It seemed against Alabama for a good chunk of this process.

He is kind of building this case that the weekly ranking shows were to be believed.

And I think that's where I kind of hop off the train, because even though those things are supposed to be taken seriously, I think we know better at this point than it's sort of just a TV show, And so I don't think you could take any of that as gospel, because truly, we saw a bunch of movement down the stretch the last couple weeks, most notably just this last week, which gave Miami the nod and knock Notre Dame out.

I find it really hard to believe that they were hook line and Sinker sold on everything the committee was telling them.

I totally get where they're coming from from the standpoint of the process is broken, and it doesn't seem like there is a good way to tell teams.

At least in this case, there wasn't a good way to tell Notre Dame that they needed to do more to give themselves a better case, a stronger case to get into that final field of twelve.

So I understand that perspective.

But the notion that what we are seeing on Tuesday nights is any sort of hard and fast ranking of these teams that cannot change that, to me is where I was like, you might have lost me a little bit.

Pete, Yeah, I'm with you again.

And you know, I don't know him particularly well, but he's in just his second year as a full time athletic director.

He did not come from the college space.

Well obviously, he was very involved with it, like he was on a traditional ad higher and I think a lot of people who come from, you know, a different background sometimes getting doctrinated the hard way, right, Like, college.

Sports is different.

I'm not saying it's better, I'm not saying it's worse, but it's different than the business world.

Like don't believe everything you hear and say, right, like, I think you need to be very skeptical of a lot of people's intentions.

Here, Jack Swarbrick, who you know was not nearly as you know, publicly charismatic as Pepa Baque, is.

Got stuff done.

You know what I mean.

I'm not saying Pete's not getting stuff done.

But Jack knew where the bodies were buried.

He could see around corners.

He's the one who designed this system that greatly benefits Notre Dame, right like the end of the day.

And I'm saying the obvious here like don't go, don't start owing too and you won't find yourself in this situation.

And obviously it's a little more complicated than that.

But I just wonder.

I do wonder, like I look at the makeup.

Of the ACC.

I see a league with a commissioner who son just graduated from Nordame and who himself came up through the industry working at Notre Dame.

I see four athletic directors Pittsburgh, North Carolina, Duke, and NC State who are all Nordame grads.

And I just.

Think on a human level, you look at that and they see a guy who got a job that they probably would have gone after themselves had it been open who got this job for whatever reason, and probably probably don't look at him and Nordame with as much respect as they did when Jack was there.

That's just my read of the situation.

No one has explicitly said that to me.

But again, I think human nature kicks in with all these things.

I mean, look at the makeup of the committee.

The only recusal for Notre Dame this year was Ivan Maizel, and he was recused because he wrote a book on Frankly, Ivan is from Alabama, He's got Stanford diploma.

Like that was the closest thing Neredame had to a quote unquote ally in the room this year.

Go back to twenty fourteen, the first year of the committee, I counted four with Neridame ties Barry Alvarez who's once the DC there, Ty Willingham who was once the coach there, cond of Liza Rice who was a degree from the place, and there was one more, Pat Hayden who used to call their games for Nbcure, these are human beings.

I know they're all supposed to be unbiased and stick to the facts and the data, etc.

These are human beings who are essentially sequestered for six weeks with just a few other human beings having representation for your school or other people's cases, conferences matters.

I had someone who's intimately familiar with the makeup of that committee tell me I'm not surprised Alabama got in over Ner Dame.

That was my fear the minute they took off mac Rhodes and put Hunter year Check up there, because when you got an SEC chair up there, the SEC is probably going to get the benefit of the doubt.

And sometimes it really is that simple, fascinating stuff.

Man.

I gotta say it has definitely animated the college football public.

My final question and then I'm going to get you, get you out of here.

What is Pete Bavaqua's endgame with this?

That's my quest.

That's my biggest question, right, I think that's everybody's biggest question.

Obviously, the future of college football is changing as we speak.

It's hard to predict what things will look like five years from now.

I imagine, you know, I believe after twenty thirty is when the grant of rights penalties based on the settlement with Clemson, Florida State and the ACC go away.

So I imagine the AEC as we know it will start to deteriorate in the years before then, as it will probably everywhere outside of the Big Ten in the SEC.

I don't know what his end game is, though obviously there's you know, eventually both nerd Name and the AEC have to bury the hatchet and move on.

I don't see another their conference, at least major.

I shouldn't say I'm sure the Big twelve would do with the AEC's doing for Nerdame, but I don't think that makes sense.

I don't see the SEC or the Big Ten doing for Nerdame what the ACC is doing for Nerdame.

And I think the scheduling, like, people are always going to want to schedule Nerdim because they're a draw both in the stands and on TV.

They enhance the ACC's media value.

But it is hard to schedule nerd Aim when every conference is going to nine games and they're seeing what USC is saying now, which is why are we playing you mid season?

Like if you look at USC scheduled, look as a traditionalist, I want that rivalry to be played on each his campus every year for as long as we're all alive, because that's what makes college football great.

However, USC is very much in the boat of like Nerdame, you play no one outside of Miami next year?

You need us.

Have you seen our schedule and you can look it up.

I mean USC has got a murder's row of a schedule.

And yes, I get it.

They chose this life by going to the ten and kill in the Pac twelve, et cetera, et cetera.

But I just think, you know, not Dame can still maintain its independence.

I don't think they have the flexibility that they once did as far as scheduling is concerned, because we saw it this year, right, The two biggest opponents of consequences of consequence that they played were the first two weeks of the season, which is a hell of a difficult way to open the season.

And maybe one, if not both, those games go.

Differently if CJ's Carr's got six games under his belt or ten games under his belt, and we'll never know, but they were playing from behind from week two on.

And yeah, do I think they're good enough to at least challenge for national championship this year?

I do, But at the end of the day, they have only themselves a blame for not putting themselves in position to be among those top twelve teams.

Much more to come to say the least, will see what the conversation looks like next with regard to Notre Dame, with regard to Michigan, and certainly with regard to Penn State.

How we started this whole conversation again.

His name is Matt Fortuna.

You can check out the podcast he does with our Fred Pete Sampson, The Independent, a Notre Dame podcast.

You can also go on out to Inside Zone mf dot com.

That is the Inside Zone, the newsletter that Matt Fortuna puts together.

Matt, you do an excellent job with this, you really do, and I'm thrilled that we were finally able to make this work.

I know you're a very busy guy this week, so thank you so much for giving us your time.

No, thanks for your patience, Thanks for having me and see you Miami maybe the championship game.

Well, let's see if they let us in, we'll see.

I'll look for you all right.

There you have it, big thanks again to Matt Fortuna for being so generous with his time today, for sharing his thoughts on Penn State, a Notre Dame on Michigan on a whole bunch of stuff.

He's one of the good guys truly, so again check him out inside zonemf dot com as well as the show he does with a friend Pete Sampson, the Notre Dame show called The Independent.

That's all for now.

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