With Laurent's segle and from London and Gerard read from Berlin.

This is redefining Energy.

Today on Relief Energy.

Look, it's summertime, so we recycle old tapes and jahab that's your show.

Explain what happened.

Well, See, it's the first time that I've actually done a podcast that took an hour, and ultimately I was just interviewed for an hour in and around my views and energy disruption and what's going on in the energy space.

I must have been enjoyed it, but I don't believe I could talk for an hour, but I did.

There you go.

I'm glad.

I'm sorry that you had to go cut it from an hour down to twenty minutes.

That must have been a painful process.

No, No, I think I kept pretty much everything because it was good.

So talk about your host.

So, yeah, Lauren, it was for me interesting because it was on video.

I taught to myself, I'll try something.

And you know the name of the platform was called Clean Titans, available on YouTube.

And yeah, if you want to see what I look like, you can look at it on YouTube or you can listen here on Spotify or Apple.

Okay, let's listen to job.

Welcome Gerard to Clean Titans.

We're thrilled to have you here to share your expertise on energy transition, finance and geopolitics.

To start, could you provide a brief overview of your background and what led you to focus on intersection of these critical periods.

Be really honest and say it was called by accident.

I was well first and foremost.

I was always interested in politics, history.

I actually wrote a history book I don't know, maybe thirty years ago.

And I then actually ended up going to Germany and I worked in the finance industry, and at some point I had a client of mine.

I said, Jared, look, I'm looking to invest in a solar company in Germany.

Would you don't visit the factory?

And I visited the factory and went back to him and said, forget about this solar stuff.

It's just not going to work.

Just the economics of it are so out of the money.

Don't worry about He goes, oh, no, no, no, no, he said, we go and have a look at it again.

The German governments are putting massive subsidies in and I was sort of still going, oh my god, why would I put money into all these subsidy based businesses make no sense.

And then I met the founder of the business and a man called Alex Vogd, who found out he was a founder of I have quite a lot of renewable technology business but one being in business called Solo and the other one doing Q cells.

And he persuaded me that Solo was going to revolutionize the world.

And then my client invested, made lots of money, and I became the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

But what I will say coming back to full circle was very interesting is if you look in the history, energy and geopolitics have always been very close, right, Wars have been fought for energy, and of law been lost because of lack of energy.

Right and United States, for example, has spent a large part of the last seventy five years protecting key waterways for the transport of oil and increasingly gas.

So it's always been there and thereabouts.

But what I would say is the last twenty years we've sort of forgotten about the geopolitics of energy, and now suddenly we're rethinking about it.

So that's why I say it's called full circle.

So it's back to where I started.

I've got this mixture of energy, technology and geopolitics.

Know how, I'm having a lot of fun.

You've worked across finance, technology, and energy.

How has that interdisciplinary experience shaped your perspective on the challenges and opportunities we face today.

Well, let me start with the finance side, because I think this is really important.

When you look at something from a financial perspective, what you're trying to do is you're trying to match risk and reward, and so you're back to basics on this.

You're looking at does it make economic sense?

And is the risk?

Is the return I'm going to receive enough for me to take the risk that's there?

So the big bidding for me is it goes back to finance, and it goes back to economics.

It's the ultimate driver of things.

Now let me add to that is that what you've got is a very interesting thing going on in the energy space is which you've got massive technology change.

And I'll talk a little bit about that.

The first one of us.

If we'd have sat here in two thousand and five, we'd be talking about peagal gas production and the United States being under a huge pressure.

And here we are twenty twenty five in the US is now the largest producer phossiphy is in the world.

Why because of drilling technologies.

You know, real innovation in and around drilling technologies.

Horizontal drilling, fracking have changed the whole landscape across the world.

Now that's a one side.

On the other side, we've seen massive innovation in and around electrical generation technologies, in particular wind and solar is the most interesting one because solar you can put solar panels anywhere.

You don't even need an electrician anymore.

They can use the power a village, you know, a garden, or even a city.

So it's incredible and the speed of deployment is amazing.

And so the result is we've never seen an energy technology come to market as quick as solar.

So that's two exchanmes.

Then in between that, it's all great, you have an energy, but you know we save energy, right, so you know we in a tank, we put gas in a cast.

In a time, we put coal and a coal bunker.

But now the question is what do you do electricity a surface electricity, Well, put it up a mountain, I put something like that.

But increasingly we're putting them in batteries and those batteries and are being used to not just store the energy for when the surplus of power, but also it's been done because all our digital devices running increasingly, you know, and so on.

So what we've got is huge innovation going on.

And I wanted to make the point is the speed of innovation is accelerating.

And this is very interesting for the energy space because the energy space is ultimately about infrastructure.

Right on oil pipeline, it's going to there for seventy five years, right, So the huge pieces of infrastructure put on place, right, you need to make these big long term bets.

I really need that grid connection there?

Do I need this?

And so suddenly we've also got risk in that area where we didn't see before.

And in particular, I would say, also, it's not just by the way, when I say that, when I'm looking at the wrist side, it's not that I'm saying, Oh, the risks is all on the fossil fuel side, No, it's not.

It's the risks is also on the renewable side.

Right, Am I really going to build that extra wind turbine when on a windy day power prices are zero?

Am I really going to that?

But it's the same on the fossil fuel side.

If we're very close to peak demand for oil across the world, am I really going to go to Venezuela and dig and I do exploration there when I might get a return on investment.

So the result of what I'm trying to say is that we're in a very interesting environment from a financial perspective, an investment perspective, and energy it suddenlyeds become high risk.

In your article The Cold Energy War, you highlight the complex geopolitical landscape, particularly for Europe.

Could you elaborate on the key challenges Europe faces and maintaining energy security while transitioning to clean energy?

Oh?

Yeah, So the European situation is simple, which is that we just don't have enough fossil fuels, right, biggest importer of oil in the world.

Why because we don't have any of it?

Right?

Whatever we had in the in ort Sea has now been taken out of the ground.

So isn't there is some oil left there?

But it's very expensive to take out, so you know you're probably taking it from the US or taking it.

But it's not just that, it's also you look at, say in the in the gas area, you've also seen peak supply of that, and although again there is gas still left, what you've got is environmental concerns in around.

And what I mean by that is, say take Gronnigan, which is in the Netherlands.

There's definitely more gas off the coast of it, but we've had a right there's definitely gas, for example, off the Irish host, but again environmental concerns stopping us doing that.

And it'd also make a point look of a take a cold just it's a dirty fuel, right, and it's staff on the ground, particularly in Eastern Europe, and to come of it out.

But if you look at it all in all, it's really difficult for Europe to actually go on energy needs.

We also have.

I didn't talk about the whole nuclear thing.

We've got pro nuclear countries France, we've got anti nuclear countries Germany, right, no consensus on that.

And so the result of it then is that it's again from European very it's very difficult to meet our own energy needs.

So I would also add as well that it was also a core part of i'd call it German dynamic strategy and they defense strategy, which was to integrate into the Russian economy.

We'll sell them our cars, We'll buy oil, gas, uranium, some coal from them.

That's sort of what happened, and obviously that's worked.

Would say the Germans would argue that's worked very well because they got a pieceful reunification greed that did work for them, but it ain't working for them now right And so now what we've got in Europe is a bit of a scramble, which is how do we more energy independent?

And I think what we also realize, which makes it very difficult for heavy industry, particular in Europe, is that we were getting cheap natural gas from Russia through a pipeline.

Now, whatever way you look at it, we're taking gas, liquefying it, bringing it across, it's going to be much more expensive than in the US.

That means we've certainly got a competitive disadvantage against the US, but against any other country that has natural gas.

And as a result, what we're seeing is industry posing down across Europe.

So it's difficult.

That's why I say the geopolitics has come into it again.

Because the geopolitics is uncertainty is there, and we can't do without energy.

So we have to think about stuff right, and we are, certainly from European perspective, really really thinking about what we need to do over the next decade or so.

And the technology is marching ahead really fast.

And the technology is marshal.

That's the good news because if you path forward for Europe is to electrify as much as we can in the energy system.

And the reason I say that is from an energy independence point of view, you can become energy independent.

I'm talking about Europe can become energy independent because of the fact that Europe has within its borders producing up for electricity to meet its own needs, okay, and also expand going forward, it'll also be able to continue meeting those needs.

So that's really really important energy independence.

But the second thing what's interesting about that is you've also had an opportunity to actually recreate the way the system works in designs because we've also got something else happening, which is that we're electrifying or other industries that have not been electrified.

So very simple transport is electrifying means electricity demand goes up.

It means that you know there's a demand there to have EV chargers, all that type of stuff.

That's number one.

Number two just to move to the digitalization of our economies and in particular the move to AI data centers, etcetera.

They need electrictic they don't need coal, they don't need gas slot or oil.

They electricity.

So how do you get them electricity as quick as possible?

That's another key charge.

Now why I say that's very interesting because if you take a data center, if you really think about it, you can use the fact that you're building that infrastructure out for the data center for the society, and you can use, for example, the excess heat that is produced from this.

You can actually begin to use the data center as flexibility play.

When there's too much win in the system.

Yes, what you ramp up their data centers.

They may be put on some batteries.

When there's not enough, you're slowing down the data centers.

That's where I'm coming from.

We have to really engage and look at this electrification from the demand side as an opportunity to rethink the whole system so that you can cost effectively get to a much more energy independent system than the one we have a present.

Because Europe is zeopolitical to the point of view, it's really is stuck in the middle.

That's what I would describe it.

Right, it depends totally on international trade to keep the lights on.

You mentioned the US is shifting stance on its impact on Europe's energy strategy.

How should Europe balance its alliance with its need for energy independents.

Well, if we really look at the strategy of Europe last two and a half decades, really is one.

Russia is where we get our resources from, mainly again oil and gas.

The United States where we get our technology from and our national security, our defense.

And China is where we get our goods from.

So that relationship is broken down, and that's multifaceted and highly complex.

So just a very practical example is that European value chain for let's say, so wind turbines.

Yes, we make our own wind turbines, yeah, absolutely, but there are core components that come from China.

Right, if you look at an electric vehicle today, same thing.

Core components can close come from Gina.

You can go on and on and on about how we're integrated into China.

On the other hand, then we've got United States, where you know, the majority of Europe cannot defend itself without the United States.

Precarious position.

The good news is we have wined ourselves off Russian fossil fuels over the last few years, and we've done this very very quickly.

So there's a way forward, and the way forward is to be independent.

I don't think anybody wants to be overly dependent on a third party.

You want to be independent and you're in a much stronger situation then at this point in time, if you can stand up for yourself, and that's the path forward to you stand up.

So it does mean that you need to have some form of independence in and around your production.

You need to have independence in and around your development of technology, and you need to have independence in and around energy.

But it's been costly for your to win itself from Russian fossil fuels.

But the good thing is the cost and the efficiency of reable just keeps exponentially improving.

Yes, so it's been incredibly expensive, and renewables and the very certain technologies right there are low cost.

So the good news is the cost of the various different technologies to enable Europe to become more energy independent to have come tumbling down, in particular electric vehicles, solar panels, batteries, wind turbines, you know, power electronics to manage the software.

All have come down.

So that's the good news.

The sort of badly news the power system that we have in place, the design sort in terms of how power markets work and fifty years ago, how the grid actually functions, in terms of how it's balanced, etcetera, etcetera.

That was put in over one hundred years ago, and it is not fit for the twenty first century.

So that requires significant change in the way we think about the grid.

So give you very practical example is that if you look at say storage for natural gas, a country like Germany would have the ability to store at any one moment in time, maybe two months of supply of natural gas, so nothing something happens too more supply.

Okay, how much energy or a French storage does Germany have for its electricity purposes?

Yeah?

Like maybe an hour?

Right that pump storage and batteries.

It's an hour now where I'm coming from, you and all of it is somebody might say, yeah, but actually what we do is we use the fossil fuel system for the storage for electricity.

That's very true.

But the point I'm making is more is that in a world where you have too much power, which is what you have as a renewable world.

But you need energy storage and we need to build more energy storage.

That's what I got to day again rethink what we did before.

We built loads of energy storage fossil fuels, but now we need to do energy storage for storing not the excess natural gas, but storing the excess electricity.

That's what we have to It's a red inking that needs to be put in there, and that means that you need to change the incentive structures and stuff like that.

That's i'd say the challenge going forward.

Right.

I interviewed this Caldera last week.

He has heat batteries to decarbonize industrial heat, which is like fifty percent of the energy for industries.

Right.

Sorry, and by the way, there's there's no doubt you talked to them doustrial use.

What's very very clear I'm talking now from the European perspective is the way forward for heavy industry and actually just food processing and stuff like this is they electrify all the processes.

And you're absolutely right.

What you do is you use heat storage stuff like that.

So again you have storage comes in different forms, but heat storage is going to be a really critical part of enabling energy independence going forward.

Right, what role do you see China playing in the cold energy world, especially with this dominance and clean technology manufacturing.

So let's take a step back, because I think what we need to do is understand what China is doing, why they're doing it, and then we should probably learn from them.

Right.

So what China is a country that at the end of the day is not energy independent, and in particular what it has has got loads of coal.

Absolutely great, you burn loads of coal, and it's pretty bad in terms of local pollution if forget about climate change, just in terms of smog horrendous.

Right, So they have to move away from and they've done a good job actually so far of if you look at cleaning up small levels and cities and stuff like this.

Right, But the bigger issue that they have is they have to import fuel.

So they're importing coal, right, and they're importing all their oil, right, and they're importing natural gas as well.

Right.

So this is from a strategic point of view, this is difficult for them.

Right.

They also realize that, and they realized very early on that there was significant technology change going to happen in the energy space, which if they embraced, could enable them to actually create a new industry.

And I want to go back and say to you again, if we sat here fifteen years ago and you asked me the name of a Chinese company, I probably couldn't do it.

And I say that because now we've got a whole while of companies that are global names, right, and there's going to be more and more of them, and a lot of them actually are in the energy space.

Right, so people know BYD, they know CATL.

Again, you were again fifteen years ago, you wouldn't been able to name one brand name.

So they did it also from an economic point if they understood.

They took a strategic view, there's going to be a technology revolution here.

We need to dominate these technologies, right.

So then when they do so today that seventy five percent of batteries worldwide come from China.

If you look at the whole value chain from processing materials all the way down to the production of the battery, the Chinese control of value chain, they also go, let's say control, but there are certainly leaders in the technology development in all these different technologies, right, So China has done that.

So what do we learn from that, Well, we have to learn that sometimes you have to take a strategic view on things and that we do have limited resources and I'm talking about limited brain power, limited capital or whatever, and sometimes you just have to really go I'm going to take a bet of this and I'm going to make it happen.

And then the other thing that you learn from the town is when you do go at something, you go at a big all right, and you scale really quickly.

And if you scale really quickly, then it's very difficult for people to catch up with you.

Right, And we see this in other areas.

Right.

If you think of a Microsoft, it's basically got a global monopoly.

That's just sort of what they're trying to drive.

But you get to such scale that nobody can compete with you.

Right.

So that's what China has done very well, and we need to sort of learn from that, I think going forward and really make strategic decisions in and around what the future is and then create that future.

I was looking at Ember's report and they have a slide or solar dependence is just you import in a ship year one and then you have twenty nine years of independence.

So every thirty years.

You're going to need to rid those solar panels back and batteries maybe twenty years.

And by the way, I didn't see that slide, but I think that's a very good way of putting it, because what you're actually saying is that so one of you imported from China at low cost, because what you've just said is it's thirty years of that producing power.

Fere Right, It's a completely different one if I'm importing oil, because that barrel of oil has to be imported tomorrow the day after, right, So I'm absolutely totally rich about this, right.

And that's again back to technologies like that, which are again my criticism of the fossil fuel will bee.

I just have to keep doing it, taking more and more out to meet that demand.

Right, while electricity and with solar and wind, what you're doing is you're putting an acid in place, is there for at least twenty years, as opposed to something that you're burning, and then you have to go and reburn it again because once I burn it, I need more.

Right, So they have that comparison side by side fossil fuels you have did you keep getting shipments.

And we have to move beyond that.

So I'm totally I prefer to go and import from the Chinese.

And even if let's say worst case scenario, you have a twer war with them in two years time, Well, I don't care.

I've just gone and I've already got my solar and wind and all that I need in there.

Right.

You advocate for energy efficiency, electrification and scaling renewabooths as crucial solutions for Europe.

Which specific technologies or policies do you believe hold the most promise for rapid implementation?

Right?

So if I look at the challenge going forward, the biggest challenge that Europe has is how does it improve energy performance within buildings?

And it's complex because our buildings are old.

And the reason it's important is because there's a fury that one is by putting in measures in your home.

So for example, putting in new windows, right, putting in a heat pump, putting in solar.

What you're doing with this is your appropriate improving the performance of your building.

It means that the amount that you have to import from the system is lower.

So I think this is a really crucial part of what we're what we're looking at going forward is how do we ensure that the customer gets more and more involved in this?

And to do that, we need to help the customers.

And it starts with, for example, how do we incentivize heavy industry to electrify and to re equip itself?

Okay, because think of it like this again, food processing plant.

It might be there for twenty years.

So how do we incentivize them to go and re equip with the most afficient and low cost all charges out there.

Well, you can do a few things.

The first thing is you can put in tax incentives.

You can do accelerated appreciation and stuff like this.

Now you might say, well, if it makes economic sense, they do it already.

No, the reason they're not doing it is because they're concerned about the future.

So what you've got is country comes in and says the future is heat pumps, and then a year later they say, no, no, no, we're still going to stick with those gas boilers.

Oh, by the way, gas prices have gone up so much, it's so expensive.

They industrial customer goes, well, I don't know if I can produce here going forward.

So you got so many risks in and around it that the industry is sort of saying, hey, should we invest here or not, and they're making decisions not to invest, So we have to reincentivize them, and that's by showing the way forward, which is electrification, and number two just helping them in terms of incentive structures.

So I think that's a crucial thing.

I would also go and add you do the exact same thing with other types of customer, right, you get them, incentivize them to actually go and get involved in making their energy system lower cost.

Right, And again that I think is crystal.

That third thing very important.

If we want to produce our dependence on the burning of natural gas in particular, we have to make electricity cheaper or natural gas more expensive.

Now natural gas has already gone up, but it's still at the point where there are certain countries in Europe where it makes, for example, no economic sense to put in a heat pump because there's so much government charges on the electricity bill that is just too expensive.

You just go and keep it natural gas.

Now, let's go to the country with all the natural gas resources.

No way, they don't heat with natural gas.

They heat with electricity.

They use heat pumps, all right, And that's sort of the way we have to look.

We have to look at what the Nordics have done and really make sure that we put the incentive structures in to electrify and to electrify in particular heat.

So I think they would be the key measures that I would think at.

There is a lot of talk in and around the let's call it the wholesale power markets and energy markets that I need to reform there.

I'm not if I was a fine I'm a finance person.

I find an investor, I always want to reduce my risk.

So if I want to reduce my risk, it's not put my build turbine or solar panel to sell into a power market where the risk of me getting zero is going to increase year after year after you're as a build more solar or wind.

That's a little bit risky for me.

But actually doing it beside the data center and having that data center company as a client to mine and as sell the powers, that's the way we have things.

So I think we really have to there's a rethinking that has to go on within the industry.

If you look the owners of renewable assets across Europe, if I may describe them as their druggies and What I mean by this is they're hooked on feeding tariffs and have been for the last twenty years.

We're in a world where there is no feed in tariffs anymore.

So people have to rethink the way they get their returns and how they match those returns and risks.

And that's what we're going through a present, if I may say, in the market.

And that makes it really exciting because what you have is the opportunity to reimagine the future of the energy system.

You've talked about grid and modernization.

What are the main obstacles to upgrading Europe's grid infrastructure and how can they be overcome.

I'm going to say it's the grid operators.

They won't like what I've just said.

It's the grid operators.

It's the incumbents, right, And let me dig into that a little bit.

So let's take the case of family.

There are eight hundred utilities in Germany.

Do you really think that all of those eight hundred utilities have the pabilities to modernize their grids?

You can't expect this, but that's the reality of what we have.

Now.

That's an extreme example, but I could look at most grid operators and most grib operators are still using measures for managing the grid that again they used fifty years ago.

And we're moving into a world where it's not about having a big centralized power station where you predict what's going to happen with demand and you move up and down the power supply of that power station to match demand on a momentary basis with licking beavers and telephones.

Right, that's how we're doing it.

That world has changed, and the reason it's changed is because we've so much renewables in it and we've sort of moved along the way of doing this.

But if you really look at the system going forward, what actually needs to happen is you need to connect everything together.

So there's a whole pilot devices in the system that are not used within the system.

So again we're beginning to have batteries in it.

I can see so many grid operators resisting batteries.

Again.

I had this recent discussion of the day, which is grid opera say no, no, no, we think batteries in the system is bad for the system, and so go.

But why is it bad for your system?

Well, it's bad for the system because they don't have the controls to control it.

And so then they're scared that somebody is using the battery to make money at the expense of the customer or whatever.

They actually just don't understand, and then I how to control it.

Now that's a very simple example.

Now let me go and take that step beyond that and say, well, how about all those electric cars out there.

There's a one hundred each of electric cars got seventy five kilo hours of a battery in it.

I could use that for my home probably it could be five days of power.

There's a power failure, I can use my car to power at home.

I could actually use it in the grid.

Well why aren't we Well we're not, because you can say the protocols are not in play the regulators and play there.

Absolutely we're not.

But that goes back to incumbents.

So I would really clearly state in my mind that the biggest sort of restrictor in terms of what's going on in the power system is actually the incumbent grid operators, and they're totally slow to embrace technology.

And in fact, it had to be clear why if you're working for Google and you come up with a new technology, you're incentivized to get that technology to market, right, that's what you've done.

Grid operators not incentivized to bring new technologies to market none.

So try and bring a new piece of software into the grid area.

Just try it.

Good luck to you, right.

So, as I said, I'm being pretty sort of burished there when it comes to the grid operators, but I think it is really there needs to be a change of thinking there, and there needs to be openness not to just do trial projects because they all do trial projects or you do trial projects.

There needs to be openness in there.

And it also requires the regulators to become smarter and more innovative and also willing to take a risk.

Right.

And again I'm going back to China.

China doing this already, so we're not right Australia.

This started vehicle to grid.

You're absolutely right, and so Australia.

If you want to look at the future of the power markets, look in Australia.

The reason I say that is because it's just big that the cost of generating rooftops or solar electricity with solar is just so low cost that you can't stop it.

And the part of the issue Australia has is a big country, no population density, which means very high grid costs.

So if you can avoid the grid cost by putting in SOLI, you're going to do it.

So if you really want to look at what's going on terms the forefront of stuff, whether it's batteries, new business models, solar or pricing in the power markets, as you said, implementation of technologies like vehicle to grid.

Look at Australia absolutely, by the way, it starts with a good regulator.

How effectively are European governments and institutions addressing the regulatory hurdles and bureaucracy that is hindering the clean energy transition.

I was going to laugh at your question because I was going to say that that's what regulators do, they just build bureaucracy, right, But I'm actually being a little bit harsh, so I'm not going to say that, right.

What I will say is that it's tough to be a regulator or a politician in this space.

And the reason is we're in a revolution, and in revolutions people companies die, and what you do to prevent yourself dying you block change in every way you can.

So what you've got is a whole pile of incumbnence within the industry and incumbent be a gas company, could be a grid operator, and they are all blocking change because they're defending their businesses.

That's what they're doing there.

They're the business against change.

They're scared.

Can I just describe one I won't name which the utility is, but I know one particular utility that their chief government negotiator they put in basically somebody who was completely incompetent.

Why because this guy just blocked change.

He annoyed everybody, He was a pain, he would ask stupid questions, he would do this.

It was a deliberate ploy under the power and part of that utility.

They knew exactly what they were doing.

This is on the CIA handbook, right, just drop meetings, just rub change.

That's sorry, that's the reality, right, And that's why it is very difficult for these regulators and governments and policymakers to make decisions because the economic interests are so big.

And maybe give a very practical example of that is gas Prom obviously the Russian gas operator.

Right, this company, right, I could say this company had bought off a large part of the German political class.

It did, that's a fact about it, right, Nothing innerality, and that's because there's so much money in energy, and then you had a company like bas Gas almost had a monopoly, and that power can be used in lots and lots of different ways.

And again, if it's under trash, it's going to do it in lots different ways, right, They're going to use that economic power in lots of different ways.

It's trillions or dollars of trade that they're Yeah.

Of course, as you have extensive experience in advising investors on energy markets and infrastructure, what are the most attractive investment opportunities you see in the clean energy sector today?

I would say to you that the moment, the most exciting place to be is what I call this area of flexibility.

And I explain with flexibility is what do you do when there's too much power in the system, In other words, prices fall at that point in time, or there's not enough power in the system where prices go up.

And so what we've got is we're living in the era of volatility, and all the most exciting things are in and around sturing the arbitrage opportunity between the high and the low prices, and that can be trading businesses that can be businesses that are helping industrial customers become more flexible on how they produce.

It can be businesses that are using batteries in the market.

It can also be backup power like reciprocal gas generators.

It can be building data centers together with batteries and wind parks.

These are the areas that I think are really interesting, and they're complex.

And if something is complex, I'm talking from a financial pipe perspective.

Returns are good if you just want to build a solar park.

Remember back to the drugs.

The drugs don't work anymore, and what you've got is low return, high risk.

That's the future of it.

So we have to rethink this in a different way.

And that's me again exciting is the fact that the drugs don't work anymore.

So that means that energy investors have to rethink things and a completely different way.

And actually, what I spend a lot of my time now is just trying to explain to people the changes that are going on and getting to understand the risks.

Right a very practical example, I had a CEO of a energy utility called me and he said, Jared, should I I'm looking at putting money into battery.

Should I do it or not?

And I said, a course, And he said, but if I look at all the different consultants that I've brought in, he says, they're completely different in the predictions in terms of what going on and whatnot.

And it was interesting I look at them model it's the incredibly extreme differences in assumptions going forward.

And all I could say was really simple, We're in an energy revolution and storage is a key technology and worst case that you learn by using this technology, best case, you'll have a great return on it.

I don't understand why grid operators don't like battery storage, because wouldn't it actually give them merely second level demand management of the ups and downs in the grid.

Firstly, it depends on whether you control the batteries or not, and they don't.

So just just take battery of my home in Germany.

Grid operator doesn't control it.

I control it right, I'm using it for this solar on the roof that I don't need.

I put my excess power in that system and then what I do is I use it within my home, so they don't control that, and at the end of the day that impacts their system because I'm using less power from that system, right, So as to say that number one, number two, they don't control any battery in a car, right, And a lot of the batteries that were put in there will put in not by the grid operator, put him by third parties who are trading them.

They might be providing services as a grid operator, but the grid operators don't generally own these assets, right.

And so again that's the big grid of Remember, we've also got most of the storage that's in place present is at the transmission grid level, right, the high voltage level.

The real resistance has taken place now is the medium voltage area.

As it says the distribution grid operators that a guy's resistant change because they don't see benefits to these systems and it's a pain for them as well.

So if you don't see a benefit from it and somebody else is using it for their benefit, you go, well, why am I even supporting this?

And generally in Europe, grid operators are not allowed on storage.

That's another thing as well, because we have liberalization in the market and storage is most countries it's considered generation and so it's not considered grids, so they're not allowed all.

So it's a little bit complicated.

Storage is one of those funny asset classes where is it a grid asset or is it a generation asset, or is it an optimization asset in your home or you're building right, or does it part of your carperball.

So if there is a very large number of electric vehicle batteries or home batteries, then it's a prediction problem, and it's an incentivization problem for the great operator to sufficiently incentivize you to keep it connected and plugged in and help them andage their demand peak times very good.

So let's take that a step beyond what you send there and see if you look at a grid operator, he cannot see what's going on with the demand in somebody's building.

He cannot see it.

So he has to make these predictions, but he doesn't really have a clue.

Now going forward, he should be able to have live data coming in and out of buildings to be able to see exactly what's going on, to be able to predict it, and also to be able to say, well, listen, I'm going to turn off that.

I'm going to turn off your heating system.

I'm going to turn it down, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, or are going to incentivize you to do this?

Or are you going to do You could say that's the way we're going.

Now, that's really complex for them to be able to do this.

There's none of them equipped to do this.

Again, my local grid operator in Germany, it is they're not a crypt to do this.

They can maybe see what's going on at the substation, that's about it.

There's no smart meters in place, so they don't even know what real time assumption I'm having.

That's sort of I'm just being very practical on this.

They're not digitalized in any way, so you have to enable them to be digitalized first and foremost to be able to see what's going on, right, because if you can see what's going on, then you can begin to control it.

But actually, what this tell I'm also trying to say to you is the key thing grid operators need to do, whether they be transmission grid operators or distribution grid operators, they have to digitalize and they have to allow devices to be connected together because by connecting things together you also save a lot of money, right, because you're improving the efficiency of stuff.

Right.

That's what you do by connecting stuff.

It's a real shame if you think you need to have one gig what hour of batteries storage, and somebody goes and invests in that, and you go, well, well, why do you not just take the one gig what hours of electric cars and connected?

Wouldn't be cheaper to connect those to their right.

So where I'm coming from is that there's a mindset of change that is needed.

There is a significant invested in technology, and I also take a point that we have to be very concerned about cybersecurity, and the likes agree totally, But I just want to make a point that as a consumer, I'm more concerned about physical attacks on the system, and I'm more concerned about climate change risks in relation to that system.

What are the key risks and uncertainties that investors should consider when allocating capital to clean energy projects.

Well, the key point I would make is we're in a revolution.

So in a revolution, it is really difficult to predict what's going to happen, and that makes it difficult.

So investing in the space, what you're doing is you really are trying to look for opportunities where there is let's say a small amount of what I call cannibalization risk in other words, too much power in the system, and number two regulatory risk.

So they're the two things that I be really focusing on is how can you do that right?

And that, by the way, that's not easy.

And the third thing I would do is I would also say you need to invest in technology to make sure that you are able to connect things together and also see and manage energy flows for yourself.

I'm talking about energy service companies' utilities and stuff like that.

I think that's they're the key things that are important.

Why I say the third one is because remember I went back to my drug taking feeding tariff people.

The drug takers have been taken feeding terriffs from which are basically fixed price agreements for twenty years, have not had to manage the assets in any way.

And now suddenly you have to manage the asset right now they have to go, Oh, what happens for go zero?

What happens to the parkers go minus?

Oh?

They will have to send it to someone else that do I hedge it?

Oh, I've got a portfolio?

What should I do?

This suddenly creates a new world where they have to change the way they build assets and the way they manage and operate assets.

That's the critical change.

I would say that the third change, I would say, and I think that would be the major sort of things I would say in terms of risks for best.

Now I'm talking about infrastructure.

I would also add, if you talk about the t technology side, you have to realize that look, I said, it's earlier, but that a lot of the technology comes out of China.

And so when you're investing in technology, you really have to have in your head that if you're building something in France, your competitor is not the Italian, it's the Chinese person.

Right, it's China.

So you have to see what's going on there and really have in your head had held going to compete with them.

I think the other area which is of great interest is what I call these next generation utilities.

In other words, what does the future utility look like?

Well, I can tell you it doesn't look like the old utilities.

The old utilities are really bad with their customers.

They've got all systems in place that cost structures are bloated, they're not flexible, they're not fast.

They're going to be under pressure in years to come right.

There are and I will examples of businesses that would be let's call these the next generation Utilly is people like Octopus Energy in the UK.

They're showing the way forward, which is, hey, the consumer is important.

We're going to communicate what we're more in the customer.

We're going to get them involved, right, We'll get to get them.

We're going to treat them like a human being, right, rather than a number at the end of a line.

That's the big changes I would say.

Going on from an investing point of view, and I've called it a risk management.

Point of view, how can financial institutions and capital markets play a more active role in accelerating the flow of investment into clean energy solutions?

The capital is not the problem.

And all you have to do is look at the record number of installations of wind and solar.

So what was there twenty twenty forward?

How much was there?

There's probably SI one hundred and fifty kick AWA's worldwide, all right, that in terms of power production is the equivalent of Germany and France.

So we've never scaled up electricity production as fast as we're doing it now.

Try to buy gas turbine twenty thirty right, So we are hutting capital to work, no issues whatsoever.

So for me, the capital is not the problem.

The problem is the incentives.

The question has to be asked is are the right incentives in place to enable that infrastructure to be built quickly and effectively.

And that's not always the case, and I think that's the key challenge.

The key challenge is that regulatory framework.

And also when it comes back also to we've got an existing energy system and you're trying to replace that.

That's not an easy thing to do.

So you have one that you're trying to replace, an upgrade.

You're replacing a fossil fuel by calling a molecule based system with aron based system, and you're upgrading the electron system.

That's not that's our challenges.

The challenges is the regulatory environment and the people and cultures of the incumbnance.

That's what I would say, that's the challenges.

I would say AI is a transformative technology.

How do you see AI impacting the energy sector?

And what are the potential benefits and risks?

First and foremost, AI, I would definitely say is the biggest technology leap forward in the history of mankind.

So it's critical for all of us to understand it and be involved with it.

Now, what's clear is when you use any form of AI, you need electricity.

So the more AAI we use, the more electricity demand is going to grow.

Now we can argue over how much that electricity demand is going to be.

I'm not going to go down that argument because what I would say to you is that if I was McKinsey and BCG and I looked at their predictions from a year year ago, they were telling us that car demand was going exponential, then outcomes the Chinese.

We can do what you did at one sixth of the energy cost, and the world has changed again.

Now.

So I'm not going to get down that road because why I'm making the point is that it's the speed of technology change is immense.

It's not a criticism BCG McKinsey.

It's tough to predict the future when you've got a revolution.

What I will add, though, is AI is not just about CHATGBT.

AI is going to be about autonomous cars.

That's going to be really the first big use of it.

It's also about huge improvements in production of medical equipment and drugs and pharmaceutical products.

It is also about robotics.

Just think of it.

You have all these robotics and the robots need electricity, so they have to be plugged in.

They're going to have to be powered, there's going to be batteries in them.

These are the big shifts that you've seen and it's so what this all means is power demand goes up.

Now what you really want to have is intelligent powering of these devices.

So take the case of the electric car.

If we all decide to plug in at six o'clock at night on a small little street in a village in Western Ireland, you probably bring down the grid on that particular road, right, So what you need to have is intelligent charging in there.

And intelligent charge is really good because intelligent charging means you don't need to overbuild a grid, and intelligent charging means that also you can take power when there's a surplus of all this type of off So we have to go to wards that area once do that.

You need the intelligence to do this.

I don't want to have to think about this, so I want my car to be able to go as the time to charge and you go don't have to think about it.

So AI is really critical in that and again back to AI data set, it's the exact same thing.

Yes, I understand at present they they want to run twenty four to seven because of course the chips are so expensive.

Of course the chips comes down.

They don't need to run twenty four seven.

They can run maybe they run eighteen seven.

But that eighteen seven gives significance flexibility in and around us.

And you can also move loads.

Guess what US is asleep where away Europe is awake?

You move loads back and forth.

So AI will have a big impact.

And if we think about AI in the right way, it will enable us to faster electrify our power system.

I would also say, because you're building all this new infrastructure around, it will also allow you to clean up the energy system as well.

I think this is very important.

As well, especially also in management of the grid.

Important part in that distributed decentralized smart clients is smart grid.

And I'm going to say one thing cure really be what I'm saying about secure is what's more secure?

A power system that has one control room one or a power system that is made up of fifty thousand microgrids that are all connected together.

Well it's obviously right.

So where I'm going from is I'm going for the ladder.

I want away from the former.

Right beyond AI, what other emerging technologies sands, batteries, storage, green hydrogen do you believe will be critical in driving the energy transition?

Well, I think one of the critical technologies is synthetic biofuels, right, sorry, synthetic and biofield And what I mean by that is there are very difficult and by the way, if we're talking about decop I'm talking about decarbonization now.

If you really want to go and decarbonize, right, or even let's me maybe extremely if Europe decided it was going to wean itself off of all of its fossil fuels, how would do it?

Well, how it would do it is one is you begin to use your biofuels for the really hard to electrify sectors.

And the hard to electrified sectors are ultimately aviation.

That's really the big one, and long distance aviation go take a long while, if ever to fully electroide.

Sure, this is no problem.

And I'd also add bolting into that, right, shipping, right, So you add the two of them in there.

So you're going to use biofils.

Yeah, maybe there's not enough bio fuels out there, so you need to go synthetic.

Then what you're doing really is you're taking that excess electricity and you're converting it into some farm molecule.

It's inefficient and it's expensive, but you would go that route.

That's what I would say.

They would be the two things.

If you really wanted to go that way and had to go that way, you would do that.

I don't believe we should be doing that at present.

I just want to be clear.

For me, what we should be focusing on is the easy to pick apples.

And the easy to pick apples are the ones I've talked about, which is you electrify as much as you can of industry, electrify as much as you can, and transport electrify as much as you can of heating and cooling.

Right, That's what we should be focused on.

The reason is because the technologies are there already in the r in the money, the technologies in and around synthetic fuels, they're just not there at present.

And again and go back to what's the best thing to do with surplus electricity, Well, the best thing to do with that surplus electricity is to use it converted into some things that we converted efficiently back into electricity.

That's a battery, right round trip efficiency ninety percent, You lose ten percent we don't create a synthetic fuel out of it, and I'm going to lose seventy percent.

I actually see more than that by the time of burn up to st healing.

More so I probably lose eighty percent.

Educate, do you really think that's a smart thing for me to do?

So I'm being practical on that now.

The challenge, and listen, is the challenge is how do we best go and reduce off fossil fuels in those two sectors.

But that's that's a challenge for our innovators and for AI and for technologists in the future, and it's a great challenge to have.

I have no doubt that the necessary challenges will come up there.

And even if they don't, worst case scenario, what do you do.

What you'll do is you'll just start storing the carbon, right, That's what you do.

If you really want to know and get to nets here, you'll do that.

But again, not focusing on it now is the wrong thing to focus on and I certainly people don't want to hear anymore about net zero and stuff like this, right, they just don't want to hear it, So let's not talk about it.

Let's move on from it.

Your focus is often on Europe.

What lessons can other regents learn from Europe's energy transition experiences, both its successes and failures.

So the failure has been industrial policy.

We were in batteries, not there anywhere anymore on it.

We were in no solar inn as your left.

A few wind turbine manufacturers left, But then they have to learn from the failures.

And by the way, we've made attempts try and catch back up.

Northfold battery attempt completely just recently gone bankrupt.

So you can learn from the mistakes.

But let's look at what Europe has done very well.

What Europe has done very well is it is gone and pop projects in place across the world.

It is built solar, wind batteries, hydro across the world, power cables, you name it.

This is what Europe is very good at and we've probably people could learn awful lot from that.

And what I mean by that is they take some of the European utilities.

Ibadola and l edp Eon or WA.

All of these have gone across the world and built renewables, right, I don't compare that.

Let's say to us, is there any US utility that's kind of broad right?

So that experience is amazing.

So I think that's what you learn from Europe is how to build and how to do it cost effectively across the world.

I think that would be the main thing I would do it.

I also think it's Europe.

You would certainly look at certain economies in Europe and sort of say, well, who's been very innovative on the regulatory front.

You could learn a lot from that.

So you mentioned Australia earlier on Australia has been very innovative.

If I look from European perspective, I look at what was going on a great Britain right, really done a really interesting job in and around the regulatory environment for allowing things like batteries into the market and stuff like that.

They would be the major sort of takeaways I would have.

How do you assess the progress of energy transition in other major economies compared to Europe.

Well, listen, the country electrifying and renewabilizing faster than anyone else's China without a doubt right there by far like they're fifty percent of everything, fifty percent of electric cars worldwide, fifty pendla scooters, fifty percent electric trucks, fifty percent solar panels, fifty pin of wind turbines, fifty percent on top of deployment terms.

So China is the king of renewables, right.

If I then look at the next one, well it's the US, right.

The US is very nucky to be endowed with incredible natural resources, great wind resources, rate hydro resources, great jail thermal resources, great solar resources, and great fosters to resources.

So they are spoiled for choice.

They can do whatever they want, right, and that makes the United States very interesting, right.

Look.

I think what is interesting though, is to look if you want to look about the future of renewables, what's going on, you do have to look at I'd look at say some Pakistan.

This is a country that has thirty kigawat's worth of power demand on an average powery basis, and we think, we're not one hundred percent sure, but we think that over the last fifteen months they've installed about fifteen gigaworths of solar and this is unheard of, all right, we've never seen this anyway.

So that like France, which has eighty gigawatts of demand, installing what the gigawatts in a year half of its power demand unbelievable.

Now why this is important is it's not France.

France.

There's lots of money they could really put the mind to they probably could do it.

This is a developing country and this did not happen because of subsidies.

This happened because US bureaucracy was loosened.

In other words, tariffs on Chinese solar imports where reduced to zero and the market took off.

Why because of economics?

As simple as that.

So for me, it does come back to economics.

And it's a point I make to anybody is you cannot block you can't.

It's right.

You can block technology change.

You can be a lud eyed, but you're going to get run over by that technology very quickly.

If you block block technology change long term, you just do the economic damage to yourself.

So that's the message.

I mean, there was in any form of global country, I'd be looking at, well, what is Pakistan doing?

Why did it happen?

How can I think about it in the other way.

How can I sort of design my power system around low cost intermit and renewables.

That would be the question I'd be asking myself.

It's not oh, let's go and copy what the Europeans did.

Now, don't copy what we did.

Think about how you can build a system in a much better way than what we've done.

So that's to be the challenge.

I mean, i'd say we.

I would say the whole of the OECD, this is Japan, China, Europe, US, Canada.

You have to look and think energy.

When you have any form of industrial revolution, the technology that wins is the low cost one.

Right.

Automobile revolution was one by its one by gasoline, right, diesel petrol gasoline right, industrial revolution was coal.

The revolution right now is it's renewable energy, right?

And it's intermittent, yes, and a lot of that in Pakistan was behind the meter solar with exactly every industry, agriculture, even small villages and communities they have their own micro grids now exactly.

It was consumer driven.

You're absolutely right, and that's again I want to say, this is unheard of.

Right, when's the last time we had something like this?

Well, maybe a few hundred years ago when the village decided, hey, listen, that's going all, you know, build a forest and you know, collect some firewood.

This is the scale of what they're doing is unbelievable.

It's not a government sort of saying, hey, we're going to do this, it's you said, it's the individual, the local community.

I'm going to do it.

You think their own money?

Are most of their own money.

I don't know why more islands do that because their energy is so expensive.

Right, it'll it will happen.

It will happen again.

You have to integrate technologies together, right, you have to rethink the way your power system works.

But it's common.

What are the most promising examples of international collaboration that you've seen in accelerating the global shift to clean energy?

Well, I actually going to say it's the Chinese European collaboration because if I look at just what happened, like take this the solar in the wind industry, right, I think Goldwyn Goldwyn is the biggest turbine manufacturer in the world.

Right, Well, the founder studied in Denmark.

He then was given Danish government money and he set up a win term and manufacturer in China and he used German technology which he licensed.

Okay, the biggest of the world.

That's deep cooperation, right, the thorough space exact same thing.

Solar industry in Germany took off.

The German equipment manufacturers took that technology, brought it to China, built their factories.

They became really really strong and guess what, they scale the technology quicker and better than we do, and they enable us to actually have low cost solar panels.

Right, that's collaboration.

You're going to look back in history and go, They've done something really interesting there because what it enabled was these technologies to scale quicker.

True collaboration.

Right.

I'm very much for this cooperation collaboration model.

Yeah, you have to sometimes collaborate with you are competitors, but you also need to compete with them, right, and not forget that.

And it's good for everybody when we do that.

It's good for society when you do both of that.

Looking ahead, what are the key trends that will shape the energy landscape in the next five to ten years and how should businesses and policy makers repair The first.

Thing I would say is that we've got any We're going into an era of abundant energy, and abundant energy means prices will come down.

And let me start with let's go through all the fossil fuels coal.

Listen, we're moving away from coal across most of the world.

So what this means is and there's loads of coal out there, So demand for coals going down, You've got a surplus of it.

Prices got out, Okay, we're seeing falling prices that are going forward.

Right.

Oil exact same thing.

What you've got is demand not really growing and too much supply out there.

Same thing.

Oil prices come down.

Gas a little bit more complicated, but we cleared there is a surplus of gas out there right now.

Issue is we can't supply it.

It can transport us, right, that's changing.

Massive LERG cap capacity is coming along, whether that's chips or the actual energy classification facilities themselves.

Right, that's what's coming online.

So what this means is this comes online, you then have excess of gas going forward.

Right, So you've gotten your fossil fuels excess.

Now let's go to electricity.

Exact same thing, because in electricity, what you're going to have is too much sun, too much wind at certain parts of the day and that's only going to increase going forward.

Because you go back to the example of Pakistan, the consumer is just going to put more sol on his roof because so cheap compared to buying it from the grid.

Reality of it, So that what does that mean?

It means that coal producer in Pakistan is going to have to switch off his barrow station when it's a sunny day.

There's no way around it.

Right, So we're going into a different world world, That's where I'm coming from, where you definitely have to think about this whole energy space in a completely different way than we've done about it before.

That would be the big change I would say, as I said, the era of abundant energy.

That's why I see where we're moving into and that's it's exciting, but it's going to be a difficult place as well.

What quality recommendations would you give to government seeking to accelerate the energy transition while insuring energy security and economic stability.

So what I think we need to do is incentivize the electrification of our world, and the best way to do that, in my opinion, is not by giving subsidies, because subsidies whatsodies end up doing is I'm getting something from my government and I'm spending it, and you overspend, which is not good for anyone.

So from my opinion would be that what you really need to do is put in tax incentives all right.

In other words, if you spend money, you can do write it off against tax or something like this type of accelerator bit.

I think this is really ritical for pushing is particularly from as I said, industrial and commercial uses.

We need to get them spending.

And then this expenditure tends to be very local as well, so it's very wet for the economy.

I think that's the first thing I would talk about.

The second thing they have to think about is really what do they want the energy system to look like and have a picture of in ten years time.

And when you understand what you want to get, then you can actually put in place the incentive structure for that.

And what I mean by that is it's all great, then we're going to be zero in twenty and thirty five or forty or whatever year you want.

These are all sort of they're just an unrealistic target, Okay, not really real helpful.

Much more healthful is to say this is what we want to achieve and this is how we're going to get there.

And that's a systemic view of the energy system going forward, and that's I think very very and I think the last thing I would say as well is that most people haven't a clue of the energy system at all, so they don't understand it.

We take it totally for granted starts, but I ope, my fridge, take food out.

People don't realize the extent of if I may say, the risk of power failures in the system and I saw from a catastrophic risk within the system.

They don't understand this.

So we need to get the consumer much more involved and educated in this.

And this is a very critical thing because if people understand it, then they can make change happen.

Right, If you don't understand it and it's just top down, it doesn't work.

I think that's what I would say from a Westerner, I think what we see is that people are just fed up of what they see a left wing socialist view of futures that from a climate perspective or energy perspective, that's what I'm seeing resistant against and I like to see that changed.

Just the narrative has to change.

That's where I'm coming from because you need to bring people with you to have change, and we've lost the reality as we've lost a large part of our populations in and around the push to decombonization.

So we have to change that messaging, and maybe that requires us as messenger givers to probably rethink what we've been saying and the language you've been using.

What message of hope and action can you offer to our viewers who're working to advance the clean energy transition.

I would say that we're in a once in a century industrial revolution, and that's incredibly exciting and it's full of enormous opportunity and at the same time it's full of threats.

So opportunity, let's go back to the beginning of the twentieth century, Henry Ford, General Motors, Bosh, Daimler.

You can go on and on in terms of all the great companies that were created at the beginning of the twentieth century in and around this industrial revolution.

So what have we got today?

Well, today we're in a similar one, right, but we're only at the beginnings.

So what have we got.

We've got a BYD, we got a Tesla, We've got to chat g BT that's only the beginning.

So my message is really opportunity is in front of you.

I would also say, and this is the technologist inside me, is that I'm not concerned about climate change anymore because we have so many great minds focusing on solutions.

That's what engineers do, that's what the scientists do.

We will find solutions to them.

They'll be probably different than what we think they are at present, but we have to unleash the power of great minds across the world to come up with solutions to the problems around us, right, and key thing going for Without innovation and entrepreneurship, we're not going to solve that problem or the other world problems as well.

Right.

So I hope that's a message of hope because, as I said, I've never been as positive in my career.

Amazing things that are happening with all these entrepreneurs.

Batteries in appliances, induction cookers with built in batteries, or refraderators with built in batteries, lights with built in batteries.

For the global seut there's going to be batteries everywhere.

I like that Batteries everywhere is a good way to put it.

Right.

I think I count two hundred my home here, So there you go.

Treats everywhere already, but now it's just going to increase.

You're absolutely right.

The big devices suddenly you have batteries in them, right there are.

This has been an incredibly insightful conversation.

Thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives with their audience.

How can our viewers follow your work and learn more about your insights?

The best thing to do is just firstly, just look at me.

Follow me on LinkedIn.

That's probably the best thing to do.

And if people want to reach out to me the same thing, just do it to LinkedIn, in chat functional LinkedIn.

That's the best way to reach out to me.

You have a podcast, Sorry, I forgot about that.

Of course I have a podcast as well, Redefining Energy.

I've been doing it with my friend Lauren saaland for the last I don't know, six years or something like that.

You know, it's brilliant.

Tell when we're very near to the two million download mark, which is pretty mad, right, I believe it's been six years, but I think that somebody who's listened to me two million times, it's like pretty scary.

I listen to it religiously every time it comes up.

It's very informative.

Listen.

Thank you very much for having me on this.

It's been great.

I've actually very much enjoyed it.

I didn't prepare first.

Thank you, Gerared, Thank you.

For listening to Redefining Energy.

Don't forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.