So I had just left, I'm standing on the com mid street of church and Vestey Street, and I'm talking to an NYPD officer asking have they seen any Secret Service agents?

When I heard this weird high pitch metal on metal screeching sound, I look up and just, I look up, I see the top of tower two buckle and uh, and began to collapse.

I was about 70 to 90 yards, probably from the base of the tower.

I mean, stupid close, right?

We on the SE in Secret Service, we call that we're on the X.

You gotta get off the X.

My first thought was, I'm dead.

Lights out came over.

Second thought, which I think was God talking to me, was run and I start running.

But man, uh, I was not outrunning that monster.

Welcome to Combat Story.

I'm Ryan Fut and I serve Warz Zone tours as an army attack helicopter pilot and CIA officer.

Over a 15 year career, I'm fascinated by the experiences of the elite and combat.

On this show, I interview some of the best to understand what combat felt like on their front lines.

This is combat story.

Today on Combat Story and in remembrance of the attacks on September 11th, 2001, we have a special guest on the show, and for the first time for our community, we'd like to introduce Darren Kinder, former Secret Service agent and nine 11 survivor.

Darren Kinder brings a rare blend of courage, clarity, and conviction.

From years spent navigating the world's most high pressure moments as a former Secret service agent and survivor of the nine 11 attacks, he uses his story to help individuals and leaders live with bold purpose and unwavering resilience.

Author of Bury Me In a Dirty Suit, discovering Man's Valiant Purpose in the aftermath of nine 11, which is a great title by the way.

Darren invites listeners to reframe how they live, seeing everyday work, not simply as provision, but his purpose in motion, his own experience assisting, evacuating, and enduring on that fateful day embodies the idea that courage is always a choice.

Darren's story is one of heroism and humility.

His actions during the nine 11 attacks earned him the Secret Service Medal of Valor.

As the founder of Fierce Comms based in Dallas, Darren empowers people to rediscover mission and meaning not just in what they do, but why they do it.

Through keynote talks and multi-session seminars, he challenges audiences to get their suit dirty, to choose the narrow, courageous pat of sacrifice over comfort.

Join us as we sit down with Darren Kinder, the man who invites us to embrace the grit of life, unlock purpose in our work and live courageously even when the world tells us we can't.

Darren, thanks so much for taking the time to share your story with us today.

It's, uh, it's great to be here.

Thanks Ryan.

We might be joined by aj.

He's having technical difficulties and when he joins we'll welcome him.

I'll give him a hard time because this is much like the Marines showing up late to the party.

Um, but hey, look, I wanted to start with something for those who are just listening and can't see you got a very cool backdrop.

I'm zeroing in though on your book, which is bury Me in a dirty Suit.

I was hoping you could just put that up on the screen just so people can kind of see.

Yeah.

And it's sitting right behind you.

It's got a picture of the twin towers on the front.

There you go.

What's put the name there, Darren.

It's a very catchy, cool name and I assume it's got some secret service lore in it.

Maybe not.

It's a catchy, cool name.

And of course I did not come up with it.

Right.

Uh, I had two other, I had two other titles, uh, that I was thinking of and then my editors said.

How about bury me a dirty suit and, uh, I had to admit like right away.

Oh yeah, that's, that's good.

So, no, I mean my nine 11 story, which, which I know we're gonna get into, uh, at the end of the day, at the bottom line, uh, me and some of my, uh, fellow agents that I worked with, we were in all in suits that day.

'cause we had a big meeting and, um, we were just beat up and we were beaten, bloodied and haggard.

And, uh, and you'll, you'll understand why when I tell my story, I mean, my, my pants were, were, were three inches shorter.

'cause they kept catching fire all day.

And the, the soles on my shoes were malformed 'cause they were melted from all the heat.

And so it was just a bunch of us that, that looked like that.

And then, um, uh, but at the end of the day I ran into some, some other colleagues and um, and, and some of them were in clean suits.

Um.

And it was just, it was just weird.

And I don't say that to disparage anyone, or, I mean, these people went on to serve their nation in, in really, in really significant ways.

And, uh, and I don't know the circumstances and situation that everyone was in, but I do know this, I know that courage is a choice and I know that, um, I could not get that dichotomy outta my mind.

There were clean suits, there were dirty suits, right?

And so the next day I'm sitting on my couch in, in Hoboken, New Jersey, September 12th, trying to figure out what's going on and what am I gonna do with my life?

And I just, uh, I just took that metaphor.

I was praying actually, and I said, man, I'm, I'm gonna spend the rest of my days getting my suit dirty.

And I said, um, I said, Lord, uh, when it's time for me to punch out of this world and into the next, bury me in a dirty suit.

Cool.

And it was in the book, it wasn't the title, but the editor liked it.

And the editor said, Hey, there's your title right there.

And yeah, so that's the story.

I like it.

So just a couple things from that one, and then, and we will get into the nine 11 story for sure.

Um.

If you care to share, share, what were your ideas for the other titles of this book?

Uh, well, the book is all about, I mean, it's, it's my firsthand account, uh, what, uh, of my experience in and around the World Trade Center, trade Center on nine 11, right?

It's that, that ground level on the street, blow by blow, minute by minute.

Encounter.

But I mean, that's, that's, that becomes kind of the backdrop.

The, the main focus and the, and the thrive and the thrust of the book is calling people specifically men to a greater purpose, to a higher purpose, to, to pursuing and executing more mission and more meaning in life.

Right?

So, uh, I think that takes courage.

Uh, I'm all about, I I talk about courage all the time.

And so, so the original title, that's a long buildup to your answer, which is it was valiant purpose.

Valiant purpose.

And, um, since I had been writing the book in my head for 10 or 15 years, that's been the title for 10 or 15 years.

So, uh, so if you notice the, the byline I did, I did ma manage to strike a compromise.

The byline is, uh, discovery Man's Valiant Purpose in the aftermath of nine one.

They gave you, they gave you a little, threw you a bone, but truly it is a very good, it's a catchy title.

And it also occurred to me, you know, I was, I was in the army obviously, so I've worn a uniform.

I was at the ccia a.

You know, when we're in headquarters, we're typically wearing a suit or some variant of that, but not all the time.

Secret Service, y'all are in a suit all the time, right?

I mean, that is just like, you have worn suits for decades, I assume.

Right?

But not all the time.

When you see us on camera, yes, we're almost always in suits, but I mean, typically as a, especially as a young agent in the New York Field office back then, I mean, I mean we were only doing in suits when we were doing protection assignments, protected details, and that day we were all in suits.

'cause we had this big meeting where all these big wigs from all over the city we're gonna be there to collaborate.

So we were in suits, but I mean, we were, you know, a lot of it was running the gun, running and gunning and, and, and t-shirts and jeans.

Really?

In the Bronx?

In Harlem.

Queens.

Not even Polo, like your t-shirt and jeans.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, whenever we could, right.

Whenever we could.

Cool.

All right.

Um, you know, I know in the book, Darren, you mentioned.

This path towards the military originally, you know, before the Secret service comes into play.

Um, but you have, uh, something medical happened, but you're, you're on the ROTC path, I think.

Can you just talk us through that before we get to what later becomes your career?

Like why that path, what happened?

Sure.

Um, it's a story that looking back now, if you look at it from 20,000 feet doesn't make much sense, but it happened.

I mean, my, my brother, so I have an older brother.

He just had this natural bent, like his entire teenage years towards law enforcement.

That's, that's where he was going.

Me on the other hand, I had a natural bent towards the military service that, that's just where I was going.

And, and you know what?

My brother went that way.

He's three years older.

Ended up having a, a, a 28 year career.

Very successful in local law enforcement.

Uh, I like to say he's the real cop of the family, Ryan.

And, uh, I was just a federal cop.

And, um, but you know, I'm in college.

Um.

I'll just admit it.

I was young and dumb and didn't do a lot of research.

I mean, back then, I know this is hard to believe, but back then there really wasn't a Google to, to jump on and educate myself.

I literally would've had to go to like a library and get a book.

Right?

Yeah.

So a lot of work.

What college, what, what college kid is gonna do that?

So anyways, it's the second semester of my senior year, uh, and I wasn't doing ROTC, I was just gonna go the OCS route, you know?

And for me the decision was Marines or Navy.

I mean, I'm sorry, I know you're an Army guy.

I don't know why so glad AJ's not on this call right now.

Right, right, right.

Exactly.

Uh, if he jumps on, I'll change my story, but.

Um, yeah, so that was my decision in my simple mind.

Well, it turns out I didn't get far in the process at all because, uh, I guess I made the mistake of being honest on my, on my medical, on my medical questionnaire, uh, and, uh, and, and I had asthma.

I still had remnants of asthma at the time, and I don't know what the rules are now, but back then, if you had asthma, I think it was, you know, after your 14th birthday and you still needed medication to maintain it.

You were, you were, you know, not, not qualified.

And, uh, I was, I was crushed.

I mean, here I was being told, and I was very athletic.

I was.

Doing triathlons and all this kind of stuff.

I'm like, what do you mean I can't, I'm medically disqualified.

Right.

So, um, so my fallback plan, I was going to, I was getting an education degree and history degree.

I said, okay, time to fall back, you know, fall back.

And I was a high school history teacher and I did that for four years and I Right.

I loved it.

I loved teaching.

I was, I was coaching JV basketball and, and teaching history.

I loved telling stories and communicating with young people.

It was awesome.

But, uh, there was that itch that still needed to be scratched.

Right.

Um, there was just something there I knew that wasn't my long-term calling.

I'm all about pursuing purpose and calling and, and I just knew that, you know what, this is good, but this is not, this is not doing it.

And um, so I just started to pursue other, other avenues to serve.

You know?

I know it sounds hokey, but for you and I, people like us.

No, it's not.

It's real.

Yeah, exactly.

So, um.

So, and it turns out my, my, a guy I, I taught with his next door neighbor was a secret service agent in Richmond, Virginia.

Oh my gosh.

And I, he introduced me to him.

I asked him a hundred questions and, and honestly, you know, he gave me his business card after we met.

And, and that business card, I write this in the book, it sat in my, in my bedside table drawer for two years.

Um, I just couldn't, I couldn't get it outta my mind.

And luckily I was married to a young woman who, uh, who was, uh, has adventure in her bones.

And eventually I just, we just decided together, you know, we're gonna go for this.

Super.

Interesting.

Okay.

Again, we, we haven't had a Secret Service agent on, on the show.

Can you just, what's the, from the outside, we see the people with suits guarding the president.

Um, you know, clean sha clean cut typically fits running alongside wherever that principle is going.

Right.

I've seen a slightly different angle just from my time at in stations abroad and working closely with y'all for big visits.

Um, but for people who haven't seen behind the curtain, what's that community like?

Yeah, well, I mean that it's a, it's a dual, uh, mission agency and, and many people do not realize that.

Okay.

And you see that the suits and the sunglasses and all that stuff that you just mentioned, right.

Uh, talking into your wrist and all this stuff.

Uh, and that's, that's, you know, that is, that's true.

That's accurate.

That's what we do, protect the president, vice president, their family members.

Uh, and many people don't realize this and, and my mission set in, in New York was often this, whenever a foreign head of state comes into the United States, the secret service by law protects them.

So.

The prime, the prime minister of, of, of the UK comes in, we're gonna work with his protective detail and we provide, uh, protection.

Uh, I mean, you know, I, one time I remember the, the president, I can't remember which one it was actually years ago in New York, the president of Iran came to New York.

And here I'm on the protective detail of, I mean, you talk about weird, right?

Yeah.

So, um, so that's a big part of the job and that's what we're known for.

But the other mission, the other prong.

Is we do criminal investigations.

I mean, and many people.

And that's how we got our start in 1865 post, uh, civil War, I think it was one, one out of every $7 in the United States was counterfeit.

And, uh, we were, we were started, uh, to, to combat counterfeiting.

And we still do that today.

It's, it's, it's a much different mission, but we have that whole investigative, uh, realm that a lot of people do not know about.

We have a lot, quite a, quite a few, you know, uh, statutory arrest powers, all kinds of financial crimes, counterfeit credit card fraud, white collar crime, um, I mean, you name it.

And now a lot of electronic crimes even into, uh, uh, child sex exploitation, uh, things like that.

So it's, it's a pretty, it's a pretty broad scope and it, what it allows is for you as an agent, I mean, there's so many things, different things you can, you can do and specialize in.

Do you have, uh, or maybe just for people who aren't familiar like I am, like can you take us through the pipeline for whatever you can say.

From when you sign up, you know, the agency is a very dark box that nobody sees into.

It takes a long time.

Flight school for me, felt like forever.

What's that path like getting into the Secret Service?

Like once you're in, what, what's the training you're going through?

Yeah.

Uh, again, man was, was funny because, you know, most of it at the time were a little more diverse.

Now.

At the time, most of the agents were former law enforcement or former military like yourself.

Right.

Makes sense.

I was not, uh, I was maybe that 20, 25% of other Right.

And I remember years later, I wrote this in the book.

It's funny, after I got hired, I ran into this old, old senior agent one time on the road, and he was on my hiring panel when I was hiring.

You know, he was, he had, he had fun busting my balls one afternoon, just throwing me scenarios, right?

And, uh, I sat down, I said, I said, Ray, I need to buy you a sandwich, you know?

And, and I said, thank you for.

Being part of bringing me on.

You know what he said, right between bites of his sandwich.

He didn't miss a beat.

He goes, yeah, you didn't, you didn't necessarily check all the boxes, but we liked you.

You're like, I don't need you to be that honest with me.

Yeah, that was a, yeah, that was a compliment.

Wrapped in an insult.

Right.

So, um, but once I got in, I got in February of 2000 and, um, uh, at that time it was about seven months of training and basically it split down the middle.

You go to the generic kind of federal law enforcement training center in, in Glen Code Georgia, do about three and a half months there, learning just generic criminal investigation.

Are are you with folks who like going in the bureau pipeline and, and other law en like federal law enforcement?

Or is it just y'all?

Yeah.

Many agencies do that.

Uh, we do not, we usually field an entire class with just secret service and actually at that time.

The reason I was hired, we were hiring a lot of people.

And so we had, we had a double class.

We had, you know, 48, you know, 48, and we were all Secret service.

And, um, so we do that you three and a half months.

And then, uh, once you graduate from that, you have maybe a week off.

And then you report to the specific, uh, secret Service Training Center, and that's in, uh, in Maryland.

And there now it gets, now you, you kind of drill in and you zone in on the, the specific criminal investigations that Secret Service does.

But a large majority of your time there is that protective element, learning the, you know, protective, uh, methodologies and, and techniques and, you know, shooting and moving and, and all kinds of things.

Um, and you start to learn more about, wow, the Secret Service does more than, and even, than even as a, as a trainee.

And then you knew Oh, sure.

And, uh, so that's about three and a half months as well.

And then you are, uh.

You are released to the wild.

I mean, they sent me to New York.

I knew I was going to New York.

Uh, but when I got to New York, Ryan, it was, um, they were, let's just say this, there were not many senior agents in New York.

It was the place you sent all the, uh, all the babies, all the, all the young dumb baby agents.

And, uh, yeah, we did okay.

Sometimes we, we made mistakes, but they were always honest mistakes.

Oh, alright.

Couple couple things that come to mind here.

Certainly in the agency pipeline, you know, discretion is huge.

You know, you're meeting with foreign assets and, uh, life and death stuff.

So they're training you to be very disciplined in what you say and don't say.

You gotta imagine it's even more important in the secret service environment with some of the principles you're working with.

Like, you're gonna see everything about this senior leader that most o like me as a CIA officer, like if I'm looking elsewhere for somebody to recruit.

I would love to get somebody who knew everything about the daily habits of the Prime Minister of some other country.

So how do they teach you the discretion?

Is it just that's what they're looking for when they're hiring?

Is there anything they do to breed that into you?

Uh, yeah.

It is bred into you.

And, and that's, you know, they're, they're gonna ask you a lot of questions in that panel interview, for example, to, to ascertain where you might fall on that.

Um, it is from day one, they just start to drill it into you.

This is an apolitical organization.

You do not protect this president or that president, or that you protect the office of the president of the United States.

I love hearing and, and it doesn't matter who it is, and, uh, we, it, the unofficial motto that they start drilling in you is when someone, when the public asks you, you say this, you elect them, we protect them.

And, and, and so, you know, you're, I mean, you're allowed to have, you know, your political leanings and persuasions and all of that.

Of course.

Um, you cannot, by federal law, you can't actively campaign for one candidate or another or anything like that.

Uh, you're allowed all of those, you know, first Amendment protected rights.

Um, but that does not enter the job.

I mean, uh, you know, if, if you got to know me, you, you, you, you would know pretty quickly which way I slant.

It doesn't matter.

Uh, I worked, I served, uh, I protected in some capacity, five different US presidents.

Uh, I would say, uh, yeah, three democrats, two Republicans, starting with Clinton and, and ending with, uh, you know, Trump's, Trump's second term.

Um.

It, it doesn't, it just doesn't factor into it.

And, and now fast forward 25 years, Ryan, it largely still is.

I mean, we've had some hiccups that are not, not, not healthy.

It largely still is an apolitical agency where it's just check all that at the door.

You do the job, the American people, whoever's in office, the American people in the system, whatever it put that person in place.

Therefore, we are going to respect, you know, we're gonna do everything we can to protect, to protect their choice.

Love it.

Yeah.

Alright.

Another question.

When I was going through flight school, there's a tape that they play us of a helicopter crash.

Um, from the pilot's perspective, it's well known within the rotary wing community in the army.

It's kind of like your lesson learned.

Is there such an event that they walk you through when you're going through your training?

Secret service of like, here's something that went sideways.

We can't let this happen.

We're gonna learn from it.

Is there an event that you all know in that community that most of us are unaware of?

Yeah, I would say the, uh, the Reagan, uh, assassination attempt, uh, that was, I think, 83.

Right?

Uh, well, actually, I mean, more specifically, you know, many people forget, we forget history that there were two different assassination attempts on Drill Ford.

Uh, we learned some, we learned some hard lessons.

Uh, and the luckily, uh, they were done.

They were, you know, they were amateurs.

Um, but the Reagan one is really, uh, there's just so much, uh, you know, clear video footage of it, and so you can go frame by frame.

Oh wow.

And, um, what was done well and what was not done well.

Uh, the way that they were able to get him into the car so quickly was, was done really well.

If you, if you slow that down frame by frame, and they really drilled this into you, uh, the second that a shot goes out, now the first shot didn't hit Reagan, you see the agent, um.

His name is escaping me right now, and that's really bothering me because he's really well known.

But, uh, maybe I'll come back to it.

Um, the agent standing in the, in the doorway, he is literally between, uh, in that, in that space, that gap between the limousine, the armored limousine, and the open space and the armored armored door, right?

He's standing in that gap.

When you see, when you hear the first shot go, you see him, you know, uh, military law enforcement, you're trained to cover, get, cover, you know, uh, or at least concealment.

Uh, we're trained to, to get big and to block.

And you see him go down, drop his center, get wider, and then in the next frame right, you see him grab his abdomen because that, because he just took a shot to the, to the gut.

Wow.

Um, and they're like, and, and they stop.

They hit stop.

And they say, that's the job right there.

Here it says, Tim, um.

Known for saving Reagan during the shooting.

He also survived the assassination attempt that he was wounded alongside James Brady and Officer Thomas Dhani.

Yeah, McCarthy.

McCarthy.

Hey, I'm a history teacher and I'm, and I'm failing here.

Don't even try that, man.

I mean, we're going back a little bit here.

And then, I mean, there's, there's all, there's all kinds of, uh, videos that you watch.

A a lot of it's from overseas, right?

Um, that they show you a motorcade, attacks and so forth, uh, that are, that are then implemented into our tactics, and they'll watch, you know, I, I remember specifically there was one in Egypt, I can't remember the details, but, uh, some, some things that were tragically done poorly in, in, in that attack.

And, uh, and so, yeah, so that, you know, all of that changes and then, you know, um, and then you get into, you know, the global War on terror and you have all these I, uh, roadside IUDs and so forth.

I mean, you're constantly changing your methodologies and your tactics to keep up.

What I wanna do is jump to your time in New York, but I feel like I'd be doing a disservice if we didn't just touch briefly on the assassination attempt on Trump most recently.

Like we haven't seen something like that in a long time.

And this is not to get political, I know there's sensitivities, but just as you're kind of looking at that, I'm sure this is what they're, I I would guess this is a video new recruits are gonna be watching and, and picking apart, uh, going forward.

Is that probably accurate, you think?

I I would, I would certainly hope so.

Yes.

And, and it's been well documented.

There's a couple of different reports on the, the shortcomings and let's just be honest, the failures that happened that day day.

Um, so yeah, the video has to be dissected and I'm sure it is.

Um, I, and in all my time in the Secret Service, I mean, we're not perfect, uh, far from it, but, uh, in all my time in the Secret Service, we were.

Constantly looking at and self-evaluating ourselves and saying, Hey, this can't happen again.

We gotta do this better.

That better learning as, uh, as you go, as you progress.

So, uh, yeah, I'm, I am, I'm not in that training pipeline.

I wasn't in the late, in the later half of my career, so, but, but I'm sure it is.

It has to be.

And, you know, most of the, um, most of the, the failures on, on that day in Butler were, had to do with the advance that was done, you know, the week prior and so forth.

So, uh, which is really what, what most people kind of look, look beyond.

They, they just see the bodyguard part, right?

They, they just see the, the body man and woman or whatever, and the response, uh, uh, but really the what, what makes us successful, what made us successful for so many years, uh, is the, the way that we do protective advances long before the president, vice president candidate, whoever, long before they're even there.

So, yeah, I know for a fact that's been.

They're digging into that right now.

Well, I'm sure they're picking that apart.

Okay.

Let's go back to you running and gunning in New York.

So you hit the ground in New York late 2000, is that right?

Yeah, I was out, uh, towards the end of August in, uh, in 2000.

Yeah.

Okay.

So again, not law enforcement on my side.

I always ask our guests, including Darrell, first time you go outside the wire in a combat zone, what was it?

Even if it was boring as heck or felt like World War iii, which it often does.

Do you remember, like what is your first case assignment?

If you can just paint a picture for us before nine 11 happens?

Yeah.

Young Darren first role here, I remember taking the path train, uh, from Jersey.

I was living in Hoboken jersey underneath the river and coming up and getting off of the World Trade Center site, coming up the escalators and just being small town, small town guy from Virginia.

In the big city, right.

Just, uh, I'm staring at these two towers and, and I mean, I was of course a little nervous, but, but fired up and ready to go.

And I remember, uh, that first day, uh, we were told, you know, don't worry guys, we're gonna get you orientated this week and then this weekend you'll have off, uh, to kind of get your family settled.

Yeah.

Well that was the first, the first lie, the first of many lies the service told me.

And, uh, my first time being launched, I was being launched the, uh, president, he was President Clinton at the time.

They had just, you know, bought a house or had moved in into Chappaqua, New York, which was about an hour north of New York City.

And I guess it was a little bit of a late minute, uh, add-on trip that weekend.

And, yeah.

We got launched and they're like, I was like, uh, I still don't have a car yet.

And they're like, uh, take a train kid.

Uh, figure it out.

And anyways, we carpooled it, we figured it out.

We got up there and, and of course I was doing midnight shift 'cause I was, I was the, the baby agent.

And, uh, that was my first, I remember my first assignment.

And then that, that very next week was, I remember, uh, rolling down, I don't know it, the hundred 45th Street and the Bronx, uh, working someone else's, uh, criminal case with them.

And just like, I mean, it was just a whole new world to me.

Yeah.

Um, and the, the vibe, uh, the angst, the energy, which is good, but also the angst and, and attitude that I would later feed off of.

But no, I remember, uh, knocking on doors in these apartment buildings and, um, I, that first week, we, I haven't thought of this in a long time, that first week.

Uh, second week, excuse me, knocking on doors in the Bronx and so forth.

And we're coming up, emptying all these leads and we decide to stop at the local precinct.

And we talked to the desk sergeant and we said, Hey, um, is there a detective that works this area that, you know, we're just trying to liaison?

And he said, well, where have you been?

And we told him exactly where, where we were.

It's just, just just me and another agent.

This agent had an entire month more experience than me, and, and this sergeant, who's probably got 15 years on, he looks at us sideways in that heavy New York accent.

He's like, we, we don't go on that block without four cars.

And we're like, oh, okay.

So learned a lesson early on.

Who were you looking for?

Was it counterfeit stuff?

Like what was the case you were working?

Yeah, it was counterfeit money.

Yeah.

It was counterfeit money.

And so we learned, we learned in, on week two, go to the precinct first, check in, get a lay of the land from people who actually work there and maybe even live there and then start knocking on doors.

Humbling.

Hey, you mentioned you were launched.

Is that the term y'all use for like going out on something?

Yeah, that, yeah.

Yeah.

As let's launch up to the Bronx, or, or, Hey, you're launching out tomorrow for, uh, for, for, for Abu Dhabi.

Um, so-and-so's going there.

You know?

Yeah.

That's the, that seems to be the term we use a lot.

Okay.

And then, so it sounds like your first, um, presidential protection was Clinton that weekend, like day four on the job?

Yeah.

Yeah, day, day five.

Day five.

Like I'm sure we're all picturing Hollywood.

I assume what it's like dark outside.

You said you got the midnight shift.

Are you just standing there trying to stay awake?

Like what is that feeling like?

Yeah, you learn, that's one thing you learn really quickly is how to stay awake and stay, not just awake, but stay alert when the, uh, when the, when the sleep monster starts getting at you at two or three in the morning, right?

And those eyes get heavy.

Um, now, today, I mean, we, when I take family trips, we drive through the night and I just plow the road from like midnight to 7:00 AM You just learn it like you, what you've just conditioned yourself.

You just condition.

It's just, I don't, I can't explain it.

You just condition yourself, you know, um, your thoughts, what you're thinking of.

You know, you gotta keep your, keep the wheels spinning in your brain.

Uh, sunflower seeds is a, is a cheat code.

You know, you're cracking on sunflower seeds.

But, um, yeah, you learn that.

You learn that really quickly.

Um, um.

I remember, uh, I can't believe I'm gonna tell this story.

It was somewhere near the Clinton house.

They had gotten a gift from, from China or something, but it was, it was like one of these, you know, life size, uh, life size statues and it looked like a Chinese warrior or something.

I don't know the details behind it, but it was, you know, it was real size and, um, and, and I knew it was there, uh, but around 3:00 AM I, my eyes started getting sleepy and for a split second, I, I thought that was an intruder, you know, on the side yard.

And I, and I, and I, I wasn't exactly drawn my gut.

I didn't get that far.

But, um, I remember just being, and then looking at it going, oh my gosh, you idiot.

That's, that's the statue that's been there for the last six hours.

Yeah, Darren, I had an experience, so in, in the, uh, you know, to follow suit here and share something I've not shared.

We did some training once when I was going through the pipeline at the agency out in the woods.

I've navigated before, like I was pretty, I wasn't great.

I was a pilot in the army, but I was good enough, I was fairly good at navigating even at night.

And we were out on a patrol, and I remember we came up on this area and it looked like we were looking out a tank.

Like I thought it was an M1, A one Abrams tank, literally in the middle of the woods.

And, you know, I, I halt a couple people with us.

I'm like, I dunno what this thing is.

Eventually it was nothing.

It was just like a, it was just like some weird way that the, uh, the trees were aligned and, and where the moon hit 'em, I felt like such a joker.

But I probably delayed us 30 minutes waiting on this thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, there's, uh.

Those are the best ways to learn.

Those are the best ways to learn lessons.

Totally, totally.

And, and yeah, you guys gotta be alone a lot.

I assume when you're doing this, like probably on, um, standing there, a a lot of times you're, you're alone.

A lot of times you're, you're paired up sometimes with the local law enforcement officer or something like that.

So, uh, and that's, that's usually the best, best scenario.

'cause you've got, uh, you've got great communications between multiple layers of, of law enforcement, but also you've got someone to talk to and, and, and, you know, keep you, uh, entertained slash aware.

Just a quick word for myself before we dive back into this combat story.

Many of you know our previous interviews with AJ Pesi, Marine Sniper Recon operator, and the man who tracked, hunted and ultimately eliminated Iraq's Deadliest Sniper Juba.

This was an enemy responsible for deaths of over a hundred Americans, some say up to 140.

Many of which were filmed and posted online.

Aj, who was just a very humble, very young Marine at the time, took that fateful shot, put an end to so much pain for so many families, never took credit for it.

And over the years, that story's changed and been retold countless times.

I'm incredibly proud to let you know that you can get your hands on AJ's new book, dark Horse Harnessing Hidden Potential In War In Life, a book I asked him to write after I interviewed him immediately after I interviewed him.

It's part memoir, part roadmap, a look at the lessons AJ learned through combat and throughout his career, and how they can help all of us find strength and purpose.

If you enjoy Combat story, you're going to love this book to get a copy, head to combat story.com/darkhorse.

That's combat story.com/darkhorse.

It's packed with details and insights that we never got to cover in our interviews, and I know you're going to love it.

Now, back to this combat story.

All right, let's fast forward to 2001 here to nine 11.

Can you paint the picture like you've been there maybe close to a year now.

You probably feel senior to some degree, but sure.

You're still the junior guy in the, in the office, but can you just walk us through what happened, but give us the lead up there.

What, what's your role at the time?

Yeah.

We were, uh, our office was in seven World Trade Center, so that's the third largest building in the, in the complex.

Um, most people didn't realize that the World Trade Center was seven, seven different buildings, right?

Towers one and two.

And then, uh, these little squatty kind of ugly little buildings bracketed the complex.

That was, uh, 3, 4, 5, and six.

And then right across the street was the newest building of the complex.

That was World Trade seven.

And, um, so we were directly across the street on the north side from the North Tower, from Tower One, and I was in the gym.

Uh, and you know, back then you had to get, you had to get in in early to beat the traffic, so you go to the gym, right?

So I was in the gym in our office and a bunch of us were just getting dressed, putting on those suits I mentioned, 'cause we had those meetings and I remember I was putting on my tie and I never finished the, the, the, the knot 'cause uh, felt a shake felt a rumble.

And within, you know, moments we're being told to, uh, told to evacuate.

And at that point, uh, you know, we saw, uh, we grab some, you know, some gear that we thought we would need and we go downstairs and, uh, we, we go outside and we're on the north, on the north side of the north Tower.

And that's where the first plane came in from the north hit the north side north.

So we're, we're looking right at the impact zone.

Um, yeah, we all pile out and, and people are, you know, civilians are being told to go this way or that way, but we're all law enforcement and we're, we're ready to, to, to, I guess do something.

And I remember looking up at that moment, and, you know, a lot of people say, yeah, the first one that thought it was an accident, and it, it became real on the second one for me.

I don't know if it was training instincts or whatever.

I looked up and I saw the, the magnitude of the, of the impact and the, and the fire.

And I knew, I didn't know what it was, but I knew that that was not an accident.

Right.

Are you seeing debris coming off the side at that point?

Yeah, there's debris, there's things, weird things floating down.

There's debris coming off and just smoke and, 'cause all that jet fuel is still, is still burning.

Uh, 'cause this was just within a few minutes after, after impact.

What people yelling on the streets at this point?

Is it fairly calm still, folks?

Just exiting buildings?

It's, yeah, it's fairly calm.

'cause no one knew the magnitude of what, of what was going on.

Um, and people, and, and, but you're really early on, you're already seeing wounded people.

And, and I can only imagine, there's no way they could have gotten down that quickly.

Those were people on the street that got hit by, uh, by debris, by chunks of engine.

Uh, I mean, it was raining, raining jet fuel and so forth.

'cause when the second tower got hit that I almost got hit by that.

So, uh, so there's already injured people and we look over to the West Side Highway, uh, about, you know, half a block to our right.

And ambulances, it was clear we're, we're marshaling there.

And so we just as a group collectively.

Maybe 30 of us.

Um, we grabbed these first aid kits, uh, on our protective details.

We had these, what we called first aid trauma kits, FAT, and, um, I mean, just had an ungodly amount of medical gear, uh, for trauma and all the things that may happen to our protectee, right?

We said, all right, let's just take these and employ them, you know, employ them in basic first responder mode.

And that's what we did.

Are you, are you trained pretty heavily on that?

I hadn't even considered it.

I guess it makes sense.

I, I mean, you got your basic first aid, first responder type.

Uh, we have a little more than that later in my career.

I do some specialized, you know, activities and, and I got darn near, I was darn near an EMT, but not official.

Um, but at that point, you know, most of us are just responding with first aid plus, you know, responder first aid plus maybe a little bit, uh, with more trauma, with a more of a, uh, more of a focus on, on trauma and burns maybe.

So we just ran over there.

And cracked open those kits and just started treating people.

And, uh, it was then I was, I was, I was, I was, um, I was wounded.

I was, this woman had a really badly, uh, badly burned arm, I mean layers of flesh gone.

Um, she was in shock, had to be jet fuel, and I'm trying to irrigate her wound.

I'm about to start wrapping it when, uh, you know, just a massive explosion over the top of my head.

Uh, I was maybe 80 yards from the, from the base of Tower two.

And that's when the, um, you know, the second plane came in as a missile and it hit a lot lower, if you remember correctly.

Um, hit a lot lower than the first one.

So it was screaming at 60, 70 floors.

Ah, and I never saw it, Ryan.

I never heard it.

I had, you know, I had that tunnel vision.

We tried to train against that, right?

Had that tunnel vision on her arm, and then the world is literally coming down all around me and we just saw, we scattered.

It was chaos for that woman.

I don't know if you remember Aaron, but.

Had she evacuated from the, from the tower down and was outside now.

And that's why she had the sustained injury.

She, it's possible.

I mean, it's possible like the, the flame coming down, the, the elevator shaft could have gotten her and maybe she got down, uh, on, in that amount of time, I'm guessing more than likely she was just on the street and got, and got some, some burning jet fuel that rained out.

That's my guess.

Alright, so this, and, and I can't recall the time between the two now, like from the first hit to the second, how many minutes are in between there?

Yeah, the first one was at oh 8 46, I believe.

I should know this.

I believe the other, the second one was at, uh oh 9, 0 2.

Um, so you're, you're only talking about 15, 16 minutes.

Uh, if I, I, I hope I have that correct.

Yeah.

And then it's, we're talking real different.

I, I would assume the atmospherics outside the environment, people are far more attuned to what's going on.

Yeah, what was kind of orderly and concerned is now just chaos, madness, panic.

And at that point, uh, myself and two other agents, um, if, if AJ were here, uh, this guy was a Marine, and, uh, you know, when you follow a Marine, uh, you're gonna put yourself in a tight spot.

And he said, Hey, we should go in the trade center and help people get out.

And, um, that's what we did.

So three of us, you know, ran across the street, went into the, uh, the lobby of the World Trade Center, uh, with just a mission of what, what's the next thing we're gonna do?

The next thing.

I mean, we didn't know the totality of the circumstances.

Had I known, I, I mean, I still didn't know that 2 7 60 sevens had served as missiles in this attack, right?

I mean, with brutal precision.

They, they struck, uh, I thought they were bombs or whatever.

Honestly, had I known that they were jet airliners, fuel of fuel, maybe I would not have gone in.

But we were kind of ignorant to all the facts.

And the three of us went in, we found a stairwell.

People were evacuating down and, uh, we started working our way up.

Was there much discussion beyond what you just described?

Like, Hey, we should go in there.

Was there any, Hey, this thing could come down.

I mean, we, we didn't know, obviously at the time what it was gonna be.

Right.

In fact, this is what's haunting, and I hated writing this in the book, but I have to had to be honest, right?

As we were going up the stairs and, and the people were evacuating down, this isn't the North Tower, tower one.

I said this several times and I, and I, I said something to this effect, don't worry, nothing can bring these towers down.

I was trying to be, I was trying to be encouraging, reassuring to the people who were, but I was, I wasn't, I wasn't BSing.

I mean, that was, that was my thought as well.

I had no, I had no idea.

Um, but man, yeah.

And so things got real, real fast.

I mean, we found, we encountered a woman about the 10th floor.

She was, she was grossly overweight.

She could not.

Self evacuate anymore.

And all it, it stopped me in my track.

All of these people were just passing her by and, and they were just, they were just Lem They were, they had their own tunnel vision, I think.

And, uh, man, I told the two guys I was with, you, keep going.

I'm gonna grab her and carry her down.

And they kept going.

I said, I'll meet you the next point in need, you know, and, uh, I grabbed her.

I carried her, you know, five foot 10, 170 pounds.

Uh, I wasn't doing much.

I literally grabbed another random dude by the collar and said, Hey, you need to help me.

And, and he was like, oh.

Oh, of course.

I, it's just, I think we, some, I think we, in the military community and the law enforcement community, certainly the firefighter community, we just have an, we have our apertures a little wider.

And, uh, and we see, we see where we should be entering in that, that not everyone does.

And, um, yeah, that was my first, that, you know, that was my first step in, in, in a long series of, of things that, uh.

That got really interesting.

How far down do you take that woman or do you at, at like the fifth floor, you're like, Hey buddy, you got her from here.

I gotta keep going back up.

Uh, we took her all the way down to, to the, to the ground level.

And luckily there were two paramedics there kind of doing triage.

And I hand, I shook the man's hand, I said, Hey, thanks.

I gave them to the, gave her to the para paramedics and then I went, I back up.

'cause, 'cause Ryan, and this is one of the points I like to make, and I know this will resonate with you and with your listeners.

That was the first time, that day that I was uneasy, timid, maybe even a little scared.

And why?

'cause I was alone.

Um, everything I had done up to that point was shoulder to shoulder with my brothers, with my sisters, right?

And, um, I didn't like that feeling at all.

And so I didn't even, I don't even remember a decision making process in my mind.

I just went back up.

I said, I'm, I told Tom and I told John I'd see him at the next point of need.

And selfishly, I need to be, I need to be with my brothers, with my people.

And, um, I mean, I think you in the military and, and, and we know that, uh, that, that that's the force multiplier, right?

That other people bring different skills, abilities and, and knowledge that you don't have.

Uh, and sometimes the courage that you don't have.

And, um, we're just so much better when we work as a team.

So I went back up.

Yeah.

Because I needed to find my, my guys.

At what point, if at all, do, do people start acting like they think they're gonna die?

Like, I can imagine there's a lot of fear at this point, but maybe a tower hasn't come down yet.

But, you know, I do.

Some of the things we talk about on this show with, with vets from combat, like when you're on the radio sometimes and you got guys who are, you know, near death, the voice changes, the dynamic changes.

It's a very, it's palpable.

I wonder what it felt like there.

The evacuation that I witnessed in my little slice was, was orderly and, and, and not, not in panic.

Uh, and I think because we were all ignorant to what could happen, right?

The madness and the fear and the, the, the, the trauma that you're talking about after the second tower came down, that, that was the rest of the day.

But before then, we were all just operating in that ignorance that, um, this was gonna be okay.

This was manageable.

I guess it was an awful problem, but in our minds it was manageable and we didn't know it was that Skyfall was coming.

Can you keep talking us through, like, you go back up, you know, you mentioned your legs or te like, talk us through that.

I, I went back up to about the 30th floor.

Uh, I stopped on the 30th floor 'cause there was a, a, a, a door that was a jar.

And so I went in there and I a, I saw a bunch of firefighters and they were, they were whipped.

I mean, they, you could tell they had been in the fight, right?

They were refitting, uh, they were drinking water, waiting for their next command.

And, um, and I asked if they had team seen two secret service agents running around.

And, and they said they had, which I thought was amazing because I didn't have, I, I didn't have a phone.

I, I didn't, I neglected to grab my handheld radio, which was the dumbest thing I did that day.

And, uh, and I didn't, I didn't, we had pagers.

Remember those?

I, I did.

I had lost that at some point.

So I had no comms with anyone.

And, um, they just didn't know where the, where the two agents I was with.

They didn't know where they, which way they went.

And um, so at that point I had a decision.

I was like, they could have gone up, they could have gone down a different stairwell.

They could be on a different floor helping.

I had no idea.

So at that point, I made the decision to go back down, climb down 30 more stair, uh, flights and try to go outside and kind of reconnect with, with my people, with, with my colleagues.

And at that point, right?

I would be remiss if I didn't say this as I'm walking through the threshold of that door to go back down.

I hear their fire commander say this, something to the effect of this, uh, get your gear together, boys.

We're going back up.

Damn.

Now, I mean, people say, oh, you know, you got the Medal of Valor.

You're a hero, and all this stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, you're looking for nine 11 heroes.

There's 422 of them and that's the 422.

You know, men and women who answered the bell and, and, and didn't come home.

Those men and women in that stair, in that hallway.

Here's what makes them special.

They knew that I was ignorant of all the facts.

They knew the facts, right?

They knew these, these were airliners.

They had comms.

They knew the situation on the ground.

And Ryan, they went back up.

Anyways, um.

They will forever have my admiration and respect and, and, and, and in my, my admiration and respect for the, for the entire, um, first responder community, um, was solidified that day for the rest of my life.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

What, what's the, where are you at when the first tower comes down?

So I had just left, I, I had just walked outta the lobby.

I'm standing on the corner, uh, not the corner, like the mid street of church and Vestey Street, and I'm talking to an NYPD officer asking have they seen any Secret Service agents when I heard this weird high pitch metal on metal screeching sound.

And, um, I look up and just, I look up, I see the top of tower two buckle and, uh, and begin to collapse.

And, um, my first thought was, I'm dead.

I was about 70 to 90 yards probably from the base of the tower.

I mean, stupid close, right?

We on the SE in Secret Service, we call that we're on the X, we gotta get off the X.

My first thought was, I'm.

Lights out came over.

Second thought, which I think was God talking to me, was run.

And I just ran.

I mean, I was 27.

I was, I was younger and faster, and I start running.

But man, uh, I was not out running that monster.

Um, the pancaking, each floor pancaking on top of each other was like a thunder clap and each one was louder and each one was closer, right?

And it's just instantaneously.

And then as the large debris starts falling all around me, that, uh, that debris storm, you know, that we see on the, on the is like, it is like, sounded like a freight train just barreling down your neck.

And I'm running now.

This is all seconds, right?

And I thought about getting sliding under a firetruck for cover and I didn't do that.

I kept going and, uh, within seconds that that storm took me and um, that beautiful bright blue day became dark night.

And my mouth, my eyes, my lungs were instantly filled with pulverized, concrete and other stuff.

But I am still sprinting.

Because large chunks of debris are still falling all around me.

And I mean, to say I should have been taken is, is an understatement.

Um, but I wasn't.

And um, yeah, it was, that was, um, I call that my mad dash for life.

You probably don't even notice if there's other people around you at this time.

You're just running, right?

Yeah, exactly.

We were all just scattering, uh, just, just scattering.

And, and I turned right, right before it took me over.

I turned right onto Vestey Street to take a different angle away from the, uh, from, from the collapse.

Uh, it, it made no difference.

And, um, it was just, yeah, it was.

And to hear, um, once that initial, you know, thunder roll went up my back, uh, that, that, that cloud storm cloud it, it kind of served as a blanket that suffocated all noise, except it.

I hate saying this except like the screams and the, and the calls, the calls from the darkness of people that were wounded and couldn't move trapped, or couldn't move or just couldn't see, um, you know, uh, years later.

That's the only thing that would really stick with me with, with those sounds, with those Christ.

Do you go back in?

Yeah.

I'm not very smart and you know, you, do you even remember a, an internal dialogue of like, I could just walk away here.

I did what I could.

This is crazy.

There's other people here.

Nothing.

Yeah, I don't even, I don't remember making those decisions.

I took shelter in a small, like storage room, uh, behind like a bodega, um, for a few minutes to get some shelter.

And then, um, and then I went back to the trade center site, um, that.

The scene between the two collapses was, was apocalyptic.

I, I, I, I write in a book.

It was, I saw the Best of humanity.

I saw, you know, new Yorkers pulling, just pulling first aid equipment out of stores and water and helping each other, flushing each other's eyes and stuff.

I saw the worst I saw, I mean, I picked up a person whose femur was sticking out of their leg and put 'em in a shopping cart and pushed him down the street to an ambulance.

Right.

I saw an ambulance scream around the corner and hit a pedestrian because the pedestrian was just kind of staggered and they didn't see each other.

I mean, just, um, madness in between.

But, and again, I don't remember making that decision, but I did.

I, I ended up going back to, back to the, uh, trade center site, uh, about a block or so.

And, uh, yeah, I was almost at the, I was almost at the same point, uh, in the mid intersection when I heard this strange metal on metal screeching sound again.

Yeah.

You just turn around and run again, like just, well, I, yeah.

At that point I di I didn't need to, to inquire and look up and all.

At that point I was like, no, no, no, I know what that is.

I'm gone.

Right.

And I took, I got a head start on that one, maybe, I don't know, eight, nine second, head start.

And as, and this time I, I decided to run north.

I was running in a different direction instead of east.

And, um, again, then I hear the thunder claps, and then I hear the thunder coming, you know that, that train roll.

And I was like, are you kidding me?

And that time since I had a head start, I saw a revolving door and I was able to just throw my shoulder through this revolving door.

And I spin and I, I land the back of my head on a marble floor and I look up as that cloud goes by, uh, outside.

So I was able to escape, you know, the worst part of that.

And, um, and that was cool because Ryan, I'm sitting there, I'm looking up at the ceiling, catching my breath for about a minute, and then I hear the door swoosh again.

And I hear my name, no way.

I look up, I hear kinder is that you and I look up and it's two of my guys, two other agents, and they, they were out in the stuff and it was two different guys from before.

But uh, at that point, man, uh, for the rest of the day I was with my people shoulder to shoulder.

And, uh, and we went back and we went back together as a team.

And we did some good.

I mean, I really, I'm really, I'm proud of what we did, but we did it together and I only had the courage to do it because, you know what?

I was, they were the wind in my sails.

They were, I was back with my guys.

Hey, how was your adrenaline at this point, like I, I've been through moments where you're going real hard trying to not die, and then all of a sudden you, you realize how tired you are.

Like you've already been at the gym, you've run dozens of staircases and it away from falling towers.

Are you exhausted yet or do you not know it?

Uh, I went through, it was just burning through one adrenaline dump, uh, at a time.

Yeah.

I think at least I had three, three different dumps.

Right.

When the first impact, the, uh, excuse me, the second impact, the first collapse, the second collapse.

Um, and then after that was just a long burn of it.

Um, I, I just, yeah, to say the least, at the end of the day when it was all said and done, I, I was, I was whipped, exhausted, I was whipped happy.

How was your soup catching on fire?

You mentioned like, what, what's happening?

Yeah.

So after, um, after Bow Towers collapsed, the three of us went back with, with another group of citizens, right?

And we, we found another agent along the way.

So now there's four agents and, um, we went back to that same intersection.

My whole experience is the, the intersection of Church Street and Bessie Street and Ryan, everything was on fire.

It's, it's my, it's like apocalyptic scene or something.

Uh, it's my vision of what hell look like.

There was, uh, I mean, emergency vehicles and civilian vehicles everywhere.

All the vehicles on fire, gas tanks were popping off, you know, exploding some of the, some of the vehicles that got this slow burn going, and some of 'em are raging.

Uh, but there, the thing was, to answer your question, there was office paper everywhere.

220 floors of office space just collapsed.

And back then we had a lot more paper, right?

And it's all on fire.

So the, I mean, literally the ground was on fire.

Um, but you couldn't walk without, I mean, I, I put fires out on my pants numerous times.

Um, and so at that point, this is, uh, I, this is one of the highlights for me of my story because it was just, it was awesome.

The team concept.

Uh, we see a firetruck.

There's a fire truck in the intersection and it's the only thing in, in the intersection that's not damaged.

I dunno how, but it's not.

And one of the guys I was with Rob, he said, um, we should hook up a hose to that firetruck and start putting out the fires.

And I'm thinking, that's stupid.

We don't know how to do that.

Right?

But the other guy I met John, he chimes in and says, yeah.

Uh, back in the day, I was a, I was a volunteer firefighter in high school.

I bet I could remember.

And so the four of us, we approached this, this, this truck.

I pull out the hose and these guys are throwing levers and turning knobs and I'm, my confidence is still pretty low.

But sure enough, water starts pouring out of this hose and we become this.

And there's this, there's this great picture of it, uh, that was on TV that I, I still have today and I'll share that with you.

Um, we become this amateur hour four man firefighting team.

And we didn't have a grand plan.

We weren't gonna solve the whole problem.

But you know what?

Together as a team, we were gonna knock down the next thing in front of us.

The next thing in front of us was, there's fire everywhere in this intersection.

Let's dominate the intersection.

Let's win.

This is our whim right here.

That's what we started doing.

And, and our, our objective was, we gotta make this area safe for all the other firefighters to, to, to, to be able to come in and, and, and do the professional work.

Because here's the point, there were no professional firefighters in that intersection at that time because they were all gone.

Oh my gosh.

343 of them gone.

And in time as we're doing this, we start knocking down these fires and we're do, we're getting pretty good at it.

But now the place starts to crawl with, you know, with the real firefighters that, that were arriving from all over, you know, other parts of the city.

And here's the cool part, Ryan.

As we were doing that, and as the pros showed up and bigger hoses and they're pumping from hydrants and stuff and on, no one ever asked us to stop.

No one ever said, Hey, get outta the way.

You're in the way.

Yeah.

We, it was, it was an all hands on deck and we weren't doing great, but we were doing something.

God have you, uh, I'm sure you have, but when you go back to church in Vessey, like I, I, and I don't know New York at all, at all there, but like, can you even see it in daylight now and not feel that that yeah, that day it's really powerful.

You know, the complex was completely redone.

I mean, now there's a memorial and there's one tower and two, and, and the streets, they even redid the streets.

So when you go back now and you try to, you try to explain to people, even the streets are different, but not in my mind.

When I'm standing, I'm standing here and now I think Church Street doesn't even go all the way through, for example, if I, if I remember that correctly.

But in my mind, as I'm looking at it, no, it's all the same.

And um, it's always powerful whenever I go to New York.

As an agent before I retired, I would go there at least once a year for work.

Uh, whenever I go back, I, I, I go down there, I make some time, you know, I say some prayers.

I honor the fallen, and it's just, um, yeah, it's never an easy trip.

And I hope it never is an easy trip.

Yeah, but it's a good trip.

But it's a good trip.

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And now back to this episode.

You know, you write in the book, I, you know, I'll get this slightly wrong, so please do correct me, but you end up hearing someone talking to you at some point during this day, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Can you talk like, when does that happen?

What are you hearing?

I had a similar experience when I was in Afghanistan.

Yeah.

Um, so in that fiery intersection, the first time we enter it, uh, remember I said when I was, when I was running for my life, I thought about sliding under the firetruck, right?

For, for safety as the, as the first tower was collapsing.

I thought about getting under that.

'cause I, I think it made sense, right?

There's, everything's about to fall, get under something big.

Well, I looked across the intersection.

I looked at, I saw that fire truck, and it was right.

It was completely obliterated, uh, beams on it.

The wheels were bent out, sideways.

It was flat.

One under that truck is dead.

And, um, and then there was this, this pickup truck that I was gonna get under as well.

Before I looked for it, I couldn't even find it because there was so much destruction.

And I, I didn't hear the word.

I, I'm a man of faith.

I, I didn't, I didn't hear the word.

Audible words of God, but it's as if he gave me, you know, and, and the teams and stuff.

You get that, you get that, that squeeze on the shoulder that says go or whatever.

I felt that squeeze on my shoulder and I, I felt the words I am with you.

Wow.

And, uh, for me as a man of faith, that was, that was the Lord speaking to me.

And he put me on my knee.

I literally dropped to a knee in the intersection and for about 20 seconds I allowed emotions to take over.

And then I gulped it down.

I said a prayer of thanks.

And, and I kept going.

And, uh, so I, I, I remember that day.

I honored that day, that moment.

I honored that moment.

I carried that with me.

And when I talk to groups, um, I talk to groups now in, in the corporate setting, you know, purely secular.

I also talk to, to faith-based groups.

And when I talk to those faith-based groups, I, I stop and I make that point.

And he is a, he is a, with you God.

And throughout all of the, the, the Christian, the biblical scriptures, it's on repeat.

I am with you, I'm with you, I'm with you.

And he met me in that moment, and that's all I needed to get through the day.

Interesting.

Yeah.

My, again, just in sharing, um, you know, I was in this gunfight in Afghanistan and we were up in the air and we couldn't, the, the enemy was too close to the friendlies for us to take shots.

So we got real low to draw fire away from the friendlies.

And we got shout out and we watched this RPG warhead just float past our window.

And I thought this thing's gonna explode.

And I had one son at the time who was a year old, and I just heard his voice, like his babbling in my ear.

And I was like, here it comes, I'm done.

I'm, I've come to grips with it.

But just in the moment, you know what, what happens is pretty amazing.

What a story.

So Darren like the end of the day there, did you say you go back to Hoboken that night?

I do, uh, I do.

I finish.

I was able to, I was part, I didn't know it at the time, right.

I was part, I write about this in my book.

I was part of the greatest movement of Man across the water in history.

I was part of the Great Boat Lift.

They call it the Great Boat Lift of, uh, of nine 11.

I think there's like a YouTube video.

You can, it's like 11 minutes long.

Check it out.

It's awesome.

Um, 600 sailors and crewmen responded to a call, and that call was from the US Coast Guard that said any available ship report to Governor's Island for evacuation efforts in Manhattan.

And I was part of that, uh, just as a passenger, uh, uh, you know, a Nassau County, uh, police boat picked me up and, and 12 other agents, uh, that met us at our rendezvous point.

And, um, yeah, we, we ended up drive.

I got home.

You know, the only way you were getting off of Manhattan that day was walking or on by boat.

I was part of that.

And they dropped us off in, uh, in Wee Hawk in New Jersey.

And really cool, really cool logistic, logistical effort.

Somebody with the Secret Service pulled off.

I don't know who, but agents from the Newark office in New Jersey met us there.

They had different cars and they just assigned us to different towns and we all got home.

And, uh, yeah.

And then I was zombie walking through, uh, through, through, through Hoboken.

And, um, yeah.

I remember as I approached the door to my, to my apartment building to walk up, this young mother was, was pushing a baby through her stroller.

And she looked at me like, I, you can imagine what I looked like, right?

You're in that suit, that's all.

I'm, I'm in that suit.

I'm all just speed up and suit.

Exactly.

And she just said, she shook her head and said, God bless you.

That's all she can muster.

And it was, it was really, it was really sweet and kind and I just nodded.

And then I had lost my keys at some point, so I hit the buzzer, you know, I hit the, hit the buzzer.

And, uh, my wife, uh.

My wife buzzed me up.

And, uh, what I didn't tell earlier was that I had called her earlier in the, earlier in the morning before the towers collapsed.

And the last thing, Ryan, the last thing I told her was that I'm in the lobby of the World Trade Center, helping people get out.

And then 13 minutes later, she watched the towers collapse.

And so she spent the entire day.

Uh, her story is tremendous.

She spent the entire day mourning and weeping and trying to figure out what she was gonna do with the rest of her life.

Those are her words.

And, and probably also wondering how she can kill you for not having to notify her to somehow that you were still moving.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's awful.

I put her through a lot that day.

You know, I, I wish I hadn't, but that's my chief regret.

Um, but yeah, when that door opened, I tell you what that was, that was quite an embrace, like a movie.

All right.

So.

And you mentioned metal valor, like the probably an, an enormous deal for anybody in that fe in that service.

And you're two years in basically.

I mean, what's the weight of something like this on your, on you, your career?

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, so I was awarded the Secret Service Medal of Valor, which is our highest, the agency's highest award for, for valor.

Uh, I should say though, that, I mean a lot of people in my, in my office that day were, were awarded that I, I, I'll just say this, it was not an exclusive club.

I, it's an excl in the big picture of the service is an, it's an exclusive thing.

So I, I, I dunno, I've never been comfortable with it, Ryan, honestly, because a lot of what I did, I just did.

'cause I was following other brave men and a lot of what I did was that I did because I didn't know all the facts.

Um, but you know what, I've come to grips with it.

Uh, it doesn't define me, but I'm certainly not gonna be embarrassed by it.

Um.

Yeah, the rest of my career was, um, I just think after that, uh, number one, the optempo for the next three years was, you can imagine, was insane.

It's, I mean, oh one to oh 4 0 5 is kind of a blur in my mind.

Um, but I did, I had a, I had a sense, a renewed sense of purpose, mission.

Um, I would later serve on the, on the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force because I wanted to, to get in the fight in that, in that sense as well.

And, um, yeah, so it opened, it definitely, you know, you're in a reputation in any organization.

Uh, you're in a good reputation.

You, some doors are gonna open to you, and I was able to, to do that.

You, do you end up in, in the Secret Service, kind of moving between both worlds that you described, kind of the protection, the, uh, criminal investigative side, or do you tend to track into one or the other?

I, I kept my feet firmly in both for most of my career.

Uh, every agent.

When they go to phase two, that's the, that's the next, the second phase there after their field office time, that's almost always a, a permanent protection assignment for an X amount of years.

Okay.

So that's just how we structured things.

So my phase two, I, I did, uh, I protected, uh, president George W.

Bush right as he wrote, rotated out of office.

That's when I left New York and moved to Dallas 'cause he was moving to Dallas to be a private citizen.

And I did that for five years.

So that phase two, it was, it was that's your, your reps every day.

The, that, the, the protective detail every day.

I did that for five years and, um, and then, and then I went back to what we call phase three.

And that's when, for most of that time, I still had one foot in each.

And, and, you know, do not feel compelled to answer this.

We can remove what I'm about to ask you.

If not, um, I, I would, I would hope to imagine, as, you know, five years protecting that man, you know, after his time in office.

I gotta imagine.

He's like, Hey Darren, tell me about what it was like ground zero of of that day.

Did you all talk about that or do you not spend that kind of time with him?

Uh, you spend that, you do spend that kind of time just 'cause you're with, with him or her every day, right?

Uh, he was, he was all business.

I mean, the further he got away from from office, you know, obviously became more relaxed and personable.

And I thoroughly enjoyed, thoroughly enjoyed my time on that detail.

Uh, we had one brief conversation about, um, about nine 11, uh, on our way.

Uh, I was with, I was with him on his way to the, uh, to, to commemorate the 10 year anniversary.

And we had one brief conversation about it.

Uh, I'll keep, I'll keep that between, between us.

But, um, it was, um, it was powerful.

It was.

I mean, you can imagine returning 10 years later, that was, that was something, I mean, you were both in the eye of that storm, like you on the ground and him at the stratosphere level, having to deal with that.

And this, um, I write about this in my book, uh, that as well.

But, um, uh, September, uh, 14th, you know, September 14th, three days later, president Bush as president came to ground zero.

And I was part of that, that protective, uh, assignment.

And guess what, Ryan, guess where I was assigned?

No way.

I was assigned right down the road from the intersection of church in Vesty Street.

I mean, half a block.

That's where the president was gonna come in.

And, and, and so there I was three days later returning to my battlefield.

I mean, I, and I don't say that lightly.

I don't mean to, uh, I men, men, like you fought on real battlefield, Darren, and we all like, that's why we, a lot of us fought was 'cause of that place.

But for me, that place was my battlefield.

And um, man, the hair on my, on the back of my neck is standing up right now just thinking about it.

And it was wild.

It was, I returned to that and I, again, I allowed myself, I allowed motions for about 30 seconds, swallowed it, and then it was like, it's mission.

It's, it's, let's focus.

'cause we were bringing a president into an act.

We were trying to secure an active rescue and recovery scene.

Like, if that sounds impossible, it's because it is.

And, um, we did the absolute best way we could.

I don't want to mislead anyone.

I was very junior.

I had a very minor role there on the ground, but I know that that whole plan kind of went sideways quickly because the mayor went there and the governor was there and everybody was there.

And lo and behold, all of a sudden he's running, he is doing a makeshift rope line and he's talking to fire fitters and steam fitters.

And I look and I'm, you know, 6, 8, 9 feet from the president and.

For someone of my vintage at that time, that was not normal.

And I was like, man, this is no normal day.

But what it allowed me to do, and I write about this in the book, is I got to see a, uh, I got to see humanity in a, in a, in a president's eyes.

Uh, I got to see a commander in chief, a leader connect with his people.

And this wasn't like, you know, this wasn't like a political rally where they're like, oh, I'm gonna vote for you.

I love you.

Right?

This was like, uh, you know, Tony, the, the firefighter from Staten Island and, and, and Joey, the, the steam fitter from Jersey, and they're looking in the president's eyes and they're saying, get these, get these sons of bitches.

Like get, you know, uh, vengeance or, or, or, or justice, whichever comes first, like the way that they were communicating.

And I saw, I, I saw this man connect with his people and it was really, really powerful.

And I was, I mean, I was there, I was 10 feet from him when he made that famous, you know, that impromptu speech with a bullhorn standing on top of the rubble.

Um, uh, I hear you.

Uh, the rest of the world hears you and the people who knocked down these buildings are going to hear from all of us soon.

And the place just went nuts, you know, chanting USA, and it was, I mean, September 11th was the worst day of my life.

Uh, September 14th may have been the high watermark of my professional career.

It was just an amazing experience.

And I will say, I mean, for people who have listened to this show, we've interviewed over 200 folks who've gone down range.

Handful of 'em were on that first flight going in, and it was like they unearthed the most badass fighters that we had.

And so you want to go back and listen to these guys who were first in, it's amazing.

Like we were sending Delta and Dev grew and Operation Jawbreaker was the first, I think.

Uh, oh man.

It, and it's just, it's legendary stuff now, but it was, it was game on.

And, uh, and I, and I, I saw, I saw that emotion firsthand.

And then, um.

And that's why I, I take it, I take time in my book to honor, uh, guardians, of course, the the first responder, community community, but also honor the, the warriors, um, the people, the the men and women like you, uh, who went down range and made sure that never happened again.

And we can, I think, I think 20 plus years later, we can look back and you can have a, you can have a legitimate argument on, on, was this wise or was that wise?

But one thing you cannot argue is that we, we've never been hit like that again on our home soil.

So true.

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And now back to this episode.

If you've got time for us, Darren, I'd love to hear a couple stories from like as you move through the ranks, just to, part of the reason I started Combat Story to begin with is, you know, there's certainly movies about combat, but it's hard to understand what it's really like being deployed down range with the guys and gals and fighting and coming back.

And most people don't see that on the Secret Service side.

Are there, is there like a story or two that you might pick from book or just your experience that that kind of shows people what that world is like?

The sacrifice, the challenges, the loneliness?

Yeah.

You know, I'll share this fact with you and there's, and it's a double edged sword, right?

In my 25 years I traveled to over 40 countries.

Now that sounds awesome.

And it was, I love traveling, but, but what does that mean?

That means I'm in 40 countries, I'm not home.

Right.

Um, so yeah, I miss my shared ball games.

I miss my shared birthdays.

I have done FaceTime on Christmas morning, uh, on a couple of occasions.

Just awful.

But, um, overall, the, the career was really rewarding.

And you know what, my four sons, they get a front row seat to, to see what service and sacrifice looks like.

And I could not have done that without the support of, of them, and especially my wife, because she's, she's the strongest person in our family.

Little, little, just between me and you and, uh, and, um, so, so yeah.

I mean it's tremendous.

I mean, but we would, you know, we would just travel.

We'd load up these armored limousines on, on c seventeens and go all over the world.

And, uh, and, you know, travel, uh, I mean, I, as a, as being a student in history, it was amazing.

'cause sometimes I witnessed history.

You rub front row, wrong row seat.

Exactly.

Uh, one, um.

One particular trip, uh, I was with a, a protectee in, uh, in Southern Ethiopia.

And it wasn't like a, a business trip.

It was a pleasure trip with friends that they, and we just, we just visited tribes via helicopter.

We had like a fleet of helicopters every day we would go hit different tribes and I mean, and sometimes it got hairy, like, should we even be here?

And it was just fast.

I love, I loved going to places that I knew I was never gonna be able to go to or afford on my own dime.

Right.

Uh, Matt, cool.

Really cool experiences and, uh, one, I'm sure you'll appreciate this.

Uh, sometimes I feel like the Forrest Gump of the Secret Service.

Right.

Um, you grew up in, in, is it Mechanicsville, Mechanicsville, Virginia.

Small town, just outside of Richmond.

Yeah.

Did you ever take, you'd be in southern Ethiopia, right?

Right.

Or, or seeing if I could swim to the bottom of the Dead Sea.

And, uh, you know, and realize, realizing you can only get about three feet 'cause it's so salty.

Yeah.

It just, yeah.

It's crazy.

Right.

And, uh, jumping off this pier into the Mediterranean and I, I'm just, um, but one, one trip stands out, um, I was, I was on the team that secured the site, um, the National Cemetery site, uh, at Omaha Beach on the 75th anniversary of D-Day.

And, um, you know, again, stood in the history.

Just, I'm literally, um, I, it is just so moving and powerful.

Uh, I believe that was, yeah, the 75th anniversary was when Trump was in office the first time.

And we get there.

Oh, 300, you know, and, uh, and I'm literally Ryan standing on top of what a German pillbox as the sun is coming up over our Omaha beach and, and I see the water and I'm just visioning.

Look, there was, you know, 75 years ago this morning at this moment, there was a German, there are a couple probably really young German soldiers in this, in this bunker, right?

And they're looking out at 6,000 ships, right?

Oh, it just, uh, man, it just hit me like a ton of bricks.

And then you see the adv, the angle, the high ground that they had, uh, how short the beach was itself.

I'm like the, you start to visualize, okay, yeah, these guys, these gis getting off, these landing crap, they had nowhere to go.

Um, and it just, it it makes you say, oh, wow, this was a special generation of men, um, who, who, who came in and, and set up the, the, the western front, uh, to, to bring about within a year, within 11 months to bring about the end of World War ii.

You're like, oh, wow.

This, so you're, you're respecting your honor for those types of people, uh, just goes through the roof even more.

Amazing.

Um, we covered when I was in Afghanistan also, um, occasionally as we're flying around, I was in the hundred first and we would fly out our easy company and, you know, it's just.

Year, decades later.

But just the name of it, like when they check in like this is easy six or whatever they'd call it, and you're like, you, you know, the hair stands up on your arm.

If you're a kid and you hear this and the hair standing up on your arm, there's a future for you.

One of these services, I'm sure.

Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

You, you think of Captain Dick Winters, right?

Leading those men and, oh, just amazing.

Yeah.

But for you, Darren, were there any, you know, if you can talk about any close calls with principals that we might envision from movies that you had to go through that you can talk about if you can't?

No problem.

No, I mean, in the, in the investigative side of the house, I drew my weapon, you know, three or four times.

Uh, I never had to fire shot, uh, was, was fortunate enough.

So, you know, those was anytime you're going through the door on a, on a, I mean, some, some of my friends, some of my colleagues were in a couple of different shootouts during, in, in New York, and, uh, I never had to experience that, uh, on the protective side.

Sure.

Things get dicey.

I mean, not, not not what you think, and there's not things I'm gonna, I'm necessarily gonna, uh, gonna say at this point.

But I mean, I remember one time just, uh, during my time with, with President Bush, um, I was one of his bike riders, you know, he, he is an avid mountain bike rider and this particular day.

I feel comfortable telling this story because I'm the butt of the story.

Uh, this particular day, um, I was in charge of doing advance and, and, and being the bike guy, right?

I was the lead out there.

And, um, we show up and we're, we're doing the bike ride, and he says he wants to go to whatever loop.

And I said, okay.

I take him on this loop.

And he says, you know, like, we're on the wrong loop.

And I was like, oh, no, we're not.

We're on the right loop.

And long story short, I had let him on the wrong loop.

And of course, within a minute, within a minute, he has a, a bad accident, like a fall.

And anyone, he, you know, if you're, if you're a mountain biker, everyone crashes.

And he was really good, really good.

And he crashed.

And it's the worst crash I've ever seen.

And I was like, oh, wow, okay.

If he dies, it's gonna be my fault.

This is amazing.

Oh my God.

You gotta be feeling like.

So bad inside for about two, yeah, for about two seconds.

I'm like, oh no.

And then I see him read it and everything's fine.

And, and uh, my second thought was, thank goodness there's an EMT with us too.

'cause one of the other riders was an EMT.

But I mean, it, it, it wasn't, it was just a minor cuts in, in scrapes.

Like, like anyone who, who crashes.

But I, I'll never forget that day that I let him down the wrong place.

And then he had a terrible crash.

And you know what, to his credit, he never, he never, afterwards never gave me a hard time about it.

That's great.

I'm sure it could go other ways with other folks.

Hey, do you all have all signs or nicknames in the service?

For us or for the protectees?

Uh, I, I think I, for the protectees I've heard that you do, but I'm thinking more for you all.

Oh, I mean, not officially.

No.

I mean, you all had nicknames.

I mean, I was, I was dk pretty much to everyone, just my initials dk, uh, but no, no, no, no, no.

Official initiation program where you, you earn a, you earn a call sign or something.

What was your call sign?

So we didn't have them either.

It, it, oh, okay.

In the Army, you're just, you just use your unit so very much like the ground does as we're flying.

Like I was, no, mercy three was one of 'em.

'cause I was at Italian's name or Bearcat six, um, which I, I still love, but I didn't have some cool like Maverick or Goose thing, sadly.

Okay.

I just, I'm getting Bruce Willis fives from you and just giving your background, I'm like.

Surely we got die hard or something here from Derek?

Yeah, I wish.

I wish.

And the only reason you're thinking that is because of, uh, my bald head, not my rugged good looks.

No, I'm seeing it.

I'm seeing it.

All right.

Um, Darren, a anything else we, we have missed or we should cover?

You got the book you're on, speaking tours.

How can people find you?

Where would you direct 'em?

Yeah, you know, right now you can, you can find the book again.

The book is, uh, is called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit.

And it's, it's all about that, uh, that firsthand experience that we walked through a lot of it today, but honestly, we didn't, we didn't even cover half of it because it's so detailed.

And, um, it's that, but it's also, you know what, it's pointing, it's calling, it's calling men specifically, but women love it as well.

It's calling people to action, to, to pursue what I call their God-given purpose.

And a person, a man, when he executes his God-given purpose, he starts creating good trouble in the world, right?

And he starts, he starts, uh, solving problems and, and societal issues by men standing up and doing honestly what we're created to do.

And so, so much of the book is about that as well.

And I, and I want your audience to know that.

Um, but you can find the book anywhere.

Uh, you find books online, you know, Amazon, uh, of course Barnes and noble.com and so forth.

Um.

I have two websites.

You can, uh, you can note from my corporate speaking.

I'm, I'm, I'm booking right now, a lot of, uh, corporate engagements.

Uh, there's just, there's so many teamwork and leadership and resilience mindset, uh, things that I draw from that nine 11 experience.

And so what they get in the corporate setting is, man, you get this incredible account in a powerful way.

But these real practical ways to, to apply some lessons learned to your, to your everyday, to your professional life and to your personal life.

And, um, so that's at darren kinder.com.

Uh, I spell my name correctly, so it's one R with an I.

Um, I, I may be the only Darren in the world who spells it that way, which is great because you can find me at, at Darren Kinder on any of the, uh, socials.

Um, so that's darren kinder.com.

And then on the faith-based side, I also do, uh, all kinds of keynote addresses and so forth on the, uh, on the faith-based side.

And that's, uh.

Fierce faith.com and that's my organization, fierce Faith.

And uh, so that's fierce faith.com.

You actually brought up something I wanted to ask.

Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Okay.

Uh, leadership actually is something I wanted to touch on.

Um, again, you know, I grew up in the military, CIA side of the house.

They both have different leadership styles.

I'm interested in what you've learned over a period of service, long period of service and secret service, both from how they execute leadership, but also just being around some of the most consequential leaders in the world and just observing them at close range.

I assume you absorb and pick up on some of what they do that may inform your own leadership style.

Right.

Um.

Okay, so I'll tackle the second part of the question first, and that being, what have I, what did I pick up as I watch people, and I, I won't get into to, to specific names, but I'll say, uh, one, one person in particular.

I just saw this person.

Um, I think Ryan Humility is the secret sauce to leadership.

I agree.

Um, you know, not, not seeing your part, seeing yourself as part of the team and working down for the, for the man, for the woman below you, uh, and serving their needs.

And then guess what?

They're gonna, they're gonna move mountains for you.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and, and so part of it is that, right, is humility is openly, this is the best leaders I've seen and this one particular, uh, political figure I can think of openly admitting.

When they didn't know all the facts or when they were in an area that they were swimming in water that they didn't really know all the details on.

Right.

And, uh, watching someone to be able to, to acknowledge that, to say it out loud, which is the craziest part.

Right.

And to intentionally put people around, uh, him that were smarter in certain areas than, than he was.

Why?

Because someone is just acknowledging areas in their life that they come up short and they're gonna, they're gonna rely and lean on people who have wisdom and experiences and education that they don't have a, and I think, um, a leader in the corporate setting or wherever, uh, any, whatever structure you're talking about, if they're intimidated, if they're scared to put smart people around them, uh, that's a big red flag for me.

Um, you, I mean, you don't always have to be the smartest person in the room.

Uh, you can be the, you can be the leader and actually build other people up.

And, uh, for me, uh, that's what I've tried to do.

During, in my various leadership roles, uh, within the Secret Service, and now, I mean, I'm venturing into a new world.

I mean, Ryan, you and I talked about it earlier.

I'm, uh, public speaking and, and social media and, and, and author of a book I'm swimming in, in waters.

There's so many things I do not know, but I'm, I'm asking the right questions and I'm intentionally bringing people in that know what I don't know, so I can avoid the pitfalls and the embarrassments and, and the setbacks.

And for me, man, um, uh, a humble heart is a courageous heart.

And, and you need humble humility and courage to be a, to be an affected leader.

That's awesome.

Okay.

Thank you for that.

Two questions I ask everybody quickly at the end of, of my interviews, Darren, and then I'll get you outta here.

One is, is there anything you carried with you when you were kind of doing this job that you needed on your person that had sentimental value, good luck, charm, something somebody had given you that you just wanted nearby that you had?

Hmm.

That's a really good question.

No one's ever asked me that before.

I don't, I don't have a, I don't remember ever having a good luck charm or, or, um, something that I had like, you know, back in the old school days, right?

The picture that's, that's in the wallet.

I mean, we don't even carry wallets anymore.

Um, but I will say this, I mean, it, it, it ingrained in me, and this is gonna speak to your audience, I'm sure.

Uh, a knife and a flashlight nice.

All day, all day, every day.

I don't care.

I don't care when, I don't care where, I mean, I, I carry off duty now.

I'm not, now I'm retired, so, uh, I'm licensed to, to carry and so forth.

Um, but no matter what that decision is, what it is, depending on the circumstances, always have a knife.

Always have a flashlight and people are saying, knife, why do you need a weapon?

Well, duh, you should, you should have a force multiplier of some of some kind on you.

And by the way, I use the knife as a tool way more than I ever used it as a weapon.

And number two, um, flashlight.

Now that's something I picked up from the Secret Service.

They ingrained it in your head.

You, you can never be without a light.

And now, now guys tell me, I say that guy say, oh, but there's a light on my phone.

Have you seen the light on your phone?

I mean, stop it.

It, it lights up about three feet in front of you.

And, uh, me and a friend were outdoors.

One time we were at the beach and I was like, yeah, pull that thing out.

And he points it.

And then I pulled out my flashlight and I was like, okay, do we need to have this conversation again?

Um, you, you just, you use it all the time.

Um, where do you wear 'em, Darren, like when you were in service, like where are you putting them, these two items?

Yeah.

So, uh, knife was always in my back.

Uh, my, my rear pocket on my right side, I'm left-handed.

So my, my handgun was always on my left side.

I, I always wanted my secondary weapon, uh, accessible by my right hand, my by other hand.

So, you know, that's, yeah, that's part of your training too.

Well, you know, you're rolling around the ground with someone.

He's trying to get your weapon, trying to get your gun.

You can lock that down and then come out with your secondary, with your op, with your opposite hand.

It's in your pocket, or was it like on your, wearing it on your belt, just above your pocket?

Uh, I, I mean, my everyday carry You talking about the knife?

The knife, yeah.

Yeah.

The everyday is just clipped into my back pocket.

Um, and then, and then the, and then the flashlight is clipped into my, uh, my front pocket on the same side.

Now, when I was doing either an investigative assignment or, uh, on a protective assignment, I would have that knife, uh, that foldable, you know, knife clipped into my back pocket.

But I would always have a straight edge.

I also had a straight edge and a cx, uh, behind my radio again, on my right side.

So I would have two options then if I needed to get like really down and dirty.

Always the same blade with the same brand.

Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a, uh, I'm a Kershaw guy.

Yeah, right.

We should, you should try to get sponsored by these folks.

That's cool story, man.

You should explore this collaborative opportunity.

If anybody's listening who has inroads, you know, reach out to Darren at his website.

That's funny.

That's funny.

Um, and then the last question I ask everybody, Darren, is just looking back on many years of service and goodness, the, the nine 11 story is unlike any other, but just looking back on your time that you spent doing what you did, would you do it again?

100%.

I mean, uh, without question.

And I would encourage my, my, my own sons to, to look into it, whether that's military service or uh, or law enforcement.

It takes, uh, people say it's a hard job and it's not, it's not appreciated anymore.

And, and all that may be true, but we still need good men and good women.

Good women doing the hard work.

And if we're, and if you're not gonna do it, then, then who's left to do it?

And, uh, yeah, there were sacrifices along the way.

But, um, when you're partnered with the right person, uh, and you can still cultivate a family and, and relationships and, and, and then, you know, you're also, you're learning skills that's gonna help you pro protect and provide, uh, protect your home and protect your family and, and pass that on to, to your, uh, to your children.

Yeah, I would, I would do it again.

Uh, I know a lot of veterans are back and forth on that with they, with, uh, not that I'm a veteran, but you know, the law enforcement part, uh, veterans are back and forth on that, and I respect everyone's opinion on that.

But, um, yeah, I would, I would, I would encourage it.

All right.

And then, uh, who does the, who does the secret service make fun of within the law enforcement community?

Where, who, where, where's the, like, brotherly love and, and, and slight disparagement come in with y'all?

So you're trying to pick a fight now is what you're doing, right?

So yeah.

You and you and AJ have your battle.

That's right.

I mean, do I have to say it?

It's the FBI of course.

Is it okay.

I mean, you were C-I-A-C-I-A and the FBI Does not get along.

I know, yeah.

I just figured they were our problem, not yours.

Uh, they are everyone's problem.

I love it.

I love it.

I say that, uh, no, the men and women, the FBII, I love them on a personal level, but yeah, organizationally, uh, they seem to butt heads with a lot of, with a lot of folks.

But, but I love 'em individually, but yeah, and, and they, they make fun of us as well.

So it's, uh, it goes back and forth.

Alright, great.

Hey Darren, thanks again man.

Best of luck with the book, with the speaking.

Um, we'll have all the links so people can find you.

Really appreciate the time.

I loved it, Ryan.

Thank you man.