And, uh, who's gonna start the podcast?

Great.

All right.

And, uh, whenever you guys are ready.

We're rolling.

All right.

Thanks Nate.

Thanks so much for taking the time to sit down with us.

Of course.

Good to be here.

Terrible timing on our part.

There's a Texas football game going on right now.

It's okay.

I did not play this in advance.

Should, with that in mind, we should be wiping the floor with utep.

Alas, we are on the ropes and it's all good.

We might keep an eye on it during the, i during the shot.

It's right here.

Line of sight.

All right.

Um, look, you can't believe everything you read online.

A lot of stuff, uh, that we were able to come across, but one thing that really stood out that I wanted to start with was you spend time in Darfur.

Yeah.

Uh, in Sudan.

Yeah.

Before your time in the military, which I would say is pretty rare for people we end up coming across.

Yeah.

Just love to hear.

Why were you there?

I mean, it kinda, it honestly kind of led me to the military.

Um, it wasn't the only reason I joined, but it definitely played a part.

You know, I was 23 years old.

This is in 2004, so, you know, I guess three years after nine 11.

Um, remember when that happened?

I was 20 and I was living in Los Angeles and kind of in my own bubble, you know, in running around, having a good time, living in a shoebox apartment and just sort of not thinking about the future.

Um, but as from that, from that time, from, from, uh, from 9 11 0 1 to almost exactly three years later, which is about when I left for the, for the dar for, I think I just gradually got more and more in this head space of feeling kind of like I didn't belong in the world.

I didn't really play a part.

I didn't, I was purposeless.

I just didn't feel like I contributed, didn't feel like I'd earned the, you know, golden ticket I got, uh, as far as just being born in America.

Yeah.

And.

Kind of just was building and building and I wasn't good to myself either, you know?

I mean, I wasn't, I, I, I wasn't exercising very much.

I, you know, um, didn't have very many meaningful, like, friendships, relationships, stuff like that, just kind of drifting.

And I read this Time Magazine article about what was going on in the DAR for, in the Sudan.

And you know, at that time, roughly 300,000 people had been killed in this genocide.

And it's mostly women and children flooding the refugee camps.

And from what I could read now, this is also, yes, we had the internet, but it's a different time.

You know what I mean?

You couldn't, it was totally different.

You know, I, I, I, I, it was a Time magazine article and then going to the library and like trying to What's Sudan?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, right, exactly.

And trying to figure out, yeah, what is going on, what's the actual need?

And um, it turned out there was just.

There was so many people coming into, across the border, into Chad.

Um, the DERs on the Western, uh, region of Sudan and to the West is, is the country of Chad.

Um, and that's where all the camps were being built, like, sort of right across the border.

And they just weren't able to keep up with the demand, you know, um, as far as how many, you know, camps they were able to be, to build.

Um, they weren't able to staff them very well from all, again, from what I could read.

So I started calling all these NGOs like Doctors Without Borders and Catholic Relief Services, child Fund.

All of them that I, you know, discovered we're out there and I said, Hey, I wanna volunteer.

I'll fly myself over there.

You know, I'm not looking for a scholarship of any or anything like that.

And they're like, well, you don't have a college degree, you don't have any special skills.

Like, it's not that simple.

It's complicated.

It's also.

You know, it's essentially next, right next to a war zone, so I do get it.

Liability.

Liability, liability.

Yeah, exactly.

So that was the big fear and 'cause it was a dangerous place and I didn't realize, probably 'cause I hadn't yet served in the military and understanding how complicated and dangerous those places can be, you know what I mean?

Yeah, for sure.

Um, but also I was just a bit idealistic and I really felt this poll, like I hadn't felt before of like, I need to go do this.

You know?

I didn't realize that that poll was like service essentially.

Um, but that's what it was.

And I just was like, I didn't want to take no for an answer.

I think in the past I would've been like, well I guess that's just the way it is, so you can't, I can't do that.

And I was like, no, there's gotta be like, there's gotta be a way.

So I just bought a plane ticket, flew over there, kind of talked my way onto a UN flight and got out to the camps and got interrogated and then, uh, was put to work though for, for a 60, 80, 60 day visa.

So it was just two months, but it's certainly changed my life.

It is the reason I joined the military.

So straight up, just bought a flight.

Yeah.

Not even Google flights at this point.

Right.

But like aa, I went to the aaa, didn't you?

Yes.

You're like, do you guys have flights to Sudan?

Did that conversation go where they're like, Hey, I, you know, my insurance is great, this and that.

Hey, do you have any flights to a, a war zone place?

Right?

Yeah, exactly.

Well, I went in, she was like, I remember the woman.

She was very nice.

She was, she didn't really ask me why I wanted to go.

Maybe she should have, but, but it was also, I was flying into, to Chad, the capital of Chad is jina.

It starts with the in jina N is that how you pronounce it?

Jina.

Okay.

I I, maybe they just say it so fast.

I didn't hear the N But that to them it was always felt, sounded like germane, but it probably is.

Yep.

In Germanna.

But that's, um, yeah, so which is very far from the actual darfa.

I mean, it's a two and a half hour flight, 20 hour drive through the desert.

So it's not close to it, but you could apply for a visa.

You couldn't travel to Sudan, that was not an option, at least flying in there, you know?

Um, so, and that's where the, the sort of the, um, all the organizations, all those NGOs were, were posted up, you know, uh, in, in Chad.

So I was like, well, I'll just get there.

And once I'm there and I talk to people and they realized I'm here to help, they, they gotta put me to work.

And, and that is essentially what happened.

It wasn't that simple, but, right.

Um, it took a couple days.

I had to go like, register with the local police, which was an, an experience for sure.

And then, um, but yeah, initially I, I got to the airport in the Capitol, which was, you know, the smallest airport you can imagine in America.

They did have a little blacktop strip out there for the big, you know, air France flights to, to land.

But, um, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a small place and not a lot of English spoken and.

You know, predominantly Muslim country.

So I'd never been to a place like that.

So it was like culture shock.

I was a little, you know, I was a kid, so I was a little, and I'm by myself, so a little, a little nervous.

Um, but also excited.

'cause I was like, I did it.

I'm here.

Like this is, this is, I'm making it happen.

Like I'm doing something with my life.

And uh, and ended up meeting this guy in the airport that spoke a little bit of English and he had, uh, like this clipboard, like the manifest of who was supposed to get on this un flight.

Of course I'm not on the manifest, but, uh, I just kind of sweet talked him into, told him why I was there and maybe told a white liar too, you know.

And, uh, ended up getting on the, getting on the bird and flying out to the camps.

And then I actually had to fly back, uh, because I didn't have the pull circulation papers I needed.

But I was like, now with an organization like out there, they were like, okay, yeah, we will, you know, we'll, we'll definitely put you to work.

Like, we're glad you're here.

You have to go back to the capitol and do it right.

But like.

Yeah.

But it was cool.

What do you, what are you doing when you're in the camp?

You cleaning stuff, are you talking to people?

Yeah, I mean, and and when do you get interrogated?

I get interrogated right away.

Like right when we landed out is Ahe was the town near the border where people kind of, um, were distributed out to the camps to work.

Right.

And yeah, I got there and I just sort of, people got off the plane and they all had a contact there that were, they're meeting on the ground and everyone's, I'm like being picked up little signs and you're just cruising.

Yeah.

By myself.

There was a tree, so I went under it 'cause there was some shade.

I just went under the tree and I was like, okay, now what do I do?

And then I just saw, you know, I kind of watched where people were going and then I just sort of followed over and, you know, they're asking for identification or paperwork, which I didn't have.

And I would just, every time I would just kinda have to say, okay, this is who I am.

Like you can see I don't have anything with me.

Really.

They kind of have your elevator pitch ready to go.

Yeah.

Because a couple of the security guys, they were like, what are you doing here?

What's, you know, and I'm like.

I did have this, like, it wasn't white like it is now, but I had like more of a red beard that was kind of, so I looked older than 23.

I probably looked closer to 30.

Okay.

So I think some of them were just like, what is, you know, is this guy, who's he working for?

Right.

You know what I mean?

One agency, is he coming from that kind of vibe.

And I was like, dude, I am not that smart.

Go through my stuff.

I have nothing.

Like, and uh, and so yeah.

So they, they did and eventually I ended up talking to this.

He was a Canadian, uh, Canadian man from, from, uh, doctors Without Borders.

Mm-hmm.

And he was like, I mean, he, he was pissed that this, that I had gotten through to that place, you know, pissed at the process, not me.

Sure, sure, sure.

Um, but it kind of took it out on me a little bit and, you know, shook me down and was like, you don't understand it.

Do you realize how dangerous this is?

How stupid that is?

And I'm like, mm-hmm.

I mean, I do, but I'm still here.

I'm also 23.

Right.

I'm kind of dangerous and stupid.

Yeah, exactly.

But he ended up helping me a lot.

He was the one who sort of got me in contact with the right people.

And when I was out there, like literally what I was doing, helping build some of the camps, um, helping distribute some of the food rations, playing soccer with the kids every day.

Like that was a big one because there was so many kids.

It was, it's all women and children.

The men were off fighting or had been killed already.

And you know, there's just, um, damn, there's a bunch of young kids with energy, a bunch of energy.

Sure.

And you know, the ones that aren't super malnourished and can get out and do stuff, they need to do that they need to still be kids.

Kids.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And so it was cool.

It was like, I felt I was busy, you know, every day.

It was like, I, I did feel needed.

I also feel like anybody could have done what I was doing, but I think a lot of the people there did appreciate that an American was there because I, I didn't meet any of other Americans over there.

Wow.

Um, 'cause it's a fr it's also, it's a, you know, it was called Nice by the French.

So besides, um, Arabic and some of the tribal languages, um.

I think Sagawa or something like that.

I can't remember.

You know, French is sort of spoke.

Spoken.

Did you speak any French at all?

No.

No, but most people, you know, we're that country that doesn't speak any other languages.

And most people Oh, you're American.

Yeah, yeah.

The French all speak a little English so that, you know, they, uh, a lot of the people there, I was able to, to get through it enough.

But, uh, but it was cool because the people that you did, even some of the young people, young, you know, uh, Sudanese people that had had an opportunity to learn some English when they found out an American was there, they really wanted to like, you know, 'cause it's, their visions are Hollywood.

Hollywood, you know?

And, uh, and which I get, I mean, it still is a.

It's is a great place.

It's not perfect, but we're, we're very lucky.

Lucky they almost like this idyllic, uh, kind of view of America.

And I've, I've experienced that as well where people just like, oh my gosh, America.

And they gravitate almost.

They just want to be in your presence, in your aura thinking that you can, you know, teach them something or some, you know, somehow like, you know, drip cool onto them.

Right.

You know, or pop culture.

Right.

You know, onto them as well.

Yeah.

And they, you know, some of 'em, I remember some of the young men were like, how do I join the military?

You know, which was super interesting 'cause I wasn't in the military, but they just went any, any way they could find to get here, uh, you know, they were in.

And uh, I thought that was pretty cool.

I definitely developed a sense of patriotism that I didn't really have before over there, which was ironic.

Yeah.

It's not that I was anti-American or anything, but I think I didn't have military in my family.

Um.

And I, I mean, in nine 11, certainly I was very inspired by nine 12 in the way that the, you know, the country generally rebounded as with that amount of unity.

And, and that was really cool watching us come together.

But I, I, I certainly wasn't, you know, kind of a, I just didn't really have a lot of perspective.

I didn't really understand, um, what it took to, what it takes to kind of have what we have and Yeah.

You know.

Well this interesting segue, 'cause you mentioned something as you were telling this story that surprised me, I guess.

'cause you seem like you've got a ton of entrepreneurial spirit.

I mean, you've got Mission six Zero, you've got connecting veterans and players, which we'll talk about mm-hmm.

Like helping with, with veterans help group.

Um, but you mentioned like prior to that moment going into the AAA or whatever it was, you normally would've just been like, no.

Okay.

They said, no, I'm out.

Right.

Which actually really surprises me about you.

You seem like the kind of guy that would never have taken no for an answer.

Did something happen along the way?

Yeah.

I mean, I, I guess at some level maybe I had that in me because of my, my parents, you know, I was lucky to have two parents that worked extremely hard to get where they got, they both went to, you know, my mom got her PhD, one of the first women in her program at, uh, Cal Berkeley.

Yeah.

In a, you know, environmental science.

And my dad was a race horse veterinarian, so he went to veterinary school at University of Tennessee where I was, uh, born.

And, um, so I definitely had two people that, like, two, two examples of, you know, not giving up or finding a way.

Yeah.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

And so I, I had that, but I, but I also, yeah, I don't know.

I, it, I don't know where the, the sort of lack of confidence came from because I, I had that issue in sports too, growing up a lot of times.

You know, like I would, um, man, I would stress myself out over something that doesn't really matter, you know what I mean?

Games, um, and then other times.

It'd be totally fine and kind of rise to the occasion.

I, I don't know why, but sometimes it would like cripple, it'd be crippling.

Yeah, yeah.

The anxiety around, you know, wanting to perform.

Yeah.

And, uh, and certainly was able to work through that later in life.

But, you know, I, and so, yeah, I just think, I think too much.

I let, I was worried about what other people thought or kind of letting other people make decisions for me, or if they said, this is how it is, then I'm just like, well, I guess that's how it is, you know, instead of like, um, just trying anyway and, and finding out for yourself whether it's possible or not, you know what I mean?

But how, how was that conversation?

So you, so you, you mentioned a lot with, you know, your parents and being, having a really good upbringing mm-hmm.

And, you know, positive support network.

Was this conversation when you said, Hey, I want to take off to a, to a, you know, a war to a war.

A war zone.

Right.

And I want to go be able to help, like how do you bring that up?

These are some educated folks too, right?

Exactly.

The way you just described it, who also understand the world, right?

Yeah.

Who have seen the world PhD, right?

Yeah.

You know, veterinarian, like you said, if I'm not mistaken.

Right.

So what was that dinner table conversation like?

That was a tough one.

I mean, I, I, I, uh, it was easier to let them know that I was joining the army, you know, a couple months later.

That was my follow on question that was easier.

The tougher one was Africa, you know, was going there because, I mean, I'd been to, I'd been to backpacking through Central America and Europe, so they, they know I like to, to travel and get out there and try to learn and figure out, because I was trying to figure things out.

I was just at that age, um, all my friends that did go to college after high school were like graduating and starting their lives and kind of felt, it felt like they knew what they wanted to do, and I just had no clue.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I was interested in all kinds of stuff, but.

Didn't really commit to anything and pursue anything fully.

And, uh, yeah, they, they, uh, I just remember sitting there, my mom, my poor mom, I put her through a lot, you know, and she was just like, because they, the first thing they're probably thinking is, what did we do?

How did we create this?

How did we mess up along the all your Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

He's got like a death wish.

I mean, she said those words.

She's like, do you have a death wish?

And I'm like, I don't know.

I don't want to die.

I'm actually terrified of die.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know what's next.

Like, right.

You know, that's, that's a, it's a, you know, it's a scary thing to think about just everything ending and I'm not sure about what, you know, no, I don't want to die.

She's like, well, it seems like it because like, you keep doing these things or, I hadn't really done anything like that drastic, but I don't know.

It just, uh, I think it.

I was their first too.

Yeah.

So, uh, luckily, oh my gosh, both my brother and sister went straight to college just killing me, Nate, and like crushed it.

But like, yeah, they, at the time, I mean, everything's fine.

Everything turned out fine and they, I remember them, for example, showing up to, uh, they came to basic training, graduation.

And I know my, you know, certainly my mom, my dad, I'm sure too, had a, um, just a worry about like, okay, like this is a huge commitment.

Huge.

You haven't committed to anything like this before and you're, you know, five years minimum you're doing this and you're gonna try to be a Green Beret.

And especially when the war, like where the war was at that time.

Exactly.

That was like oh 5, 0 6.

Well, oh, the second Battle of Fallujah was happening while I was in, that's where he was while I was in 19.

Yes.

I turned 20 in Fallujah.

I'll Good.

We'll edit that out.

Yeah, we'll edit that out.

Yeah.

Where were you when that was going on?

Dar?

Yeah.

Lemme fix.

It's alright.

You just put that on tape.

I just wanna make sure it didn't follow up.

Okay.

Yeah.

So when you were involved, when you were fighting in the second battle of Fallujah, I was, uh, recovering from malaria in the Darfur.

I got sick this last week.

I was there and this family put me up and took care of me.

They wouldn't take a dollar and they put this radio next to my bed and the only station that came through was BBC News.

And so I'm listening to like literal play by play of Yeah.

You know, because it was, it was the biggest, I think, battle, at least at to that point, right?

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, and mean the Marines are the main effort, but I know that several branches were involved and, um, so my first thought was Marine, Marine Corps because of that.

But I just, I remember like they were, same thing.

It warms my heart.

Thank you very much.

It's true.

It's true.

Well, I just, it was the recruiter's fault went in that recruiting office.

Oh, tell us this.

I want to hear this.

I've, I just got this, I've literally never heard the Marines let down on recruiting, so I gotta hear this.

Oh, really?

Well, yeah.

I don't remember the guy's name and I'm sure it was a good guy.

It just felt like I was, you know, I felt like I was on a car lot and I was getting pushed into a sale and I was just, I felt uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, Hmm.

But I also, I'm glad it happened because then I went away from there and like figured out what actually I wanted to, 'cause I had no idea it was just join the military.

Yeah.

Because I, I was one of those stupid, uh, uneducated people that assumed everybody that joins, you're all infantrymen saying the same way, the entire military's infantry.

I just didn't know I had, you know, when I joined it was the same thing.

I, it was like, oh, there's, you get to pick a job.

There's other things than carrying a rifle and charging up a hill somewhere.

Right.

I completely agree with that.

And I mean, in the Marine Corps, to be fair, is like probably by and large has more infantry port per uh.

I don't know.

But Per capita.

Yeah, per capita than the other branches.

But still, there's plenty of other things you can do, um, in all the branches, you know?

Um, but yeah, I was just listening to that and it's like, just thinking even at 23, thinking like, these people are 18, 19 years old and, you know, are, um, fighting for those that can't fight for themselves.

And that's what I felt like I was doing at a much smaller scale in Darfur.

And I wasn't fighting, but like, sure.

I just felt that like, this is where I belong.

This is, this made me feel, you know, I think those of us that do have, I guess a warrior spirit, you know what I mean, in some way it doesn't always manifest into military, but you, you, you kind of get that, you understand, um, what that feels like when you're in those situations and you kind of want to, you want to keep doing that.

You want to, uh, find a way to, to, uh.

To continue on with that, down that path.

'cause it did make me feel more alive than I had, you know, before.

And so, yeah, so then I found out about the 18 x-Ray program, the Army Special Forces and, and ended up going to the Army recruiting office, knowing what I wanted to do.

So there was no sale.

And he's tried to do the same thing.

He's like, well what about, I'm like, this is what I want to do.

I don't care if there's 5,000 more bonus dollars if I do this job.

That's great.

Give that to somebody else.

Like I wanna do this.

It seems like a perfect fit for you though, Nate, the way you like even somebody going to Sudan on their own.

Like how did you come again?

Like this is still early on.

Yeah.

How did you come across the Green Berets?

Another magazine.

Yeah.

Which magazine?

And speaking of car dealerships, I was at a, the Honda dealership getting my Civic, you know, serviced.

'cause I'd been gone and it was like, now I'm back in the real world.

And I just remember like sitting in the waiting room, you know, it's like those super sterile, everything's white in there with like the, um.

What are those lights that the ones that kind of buzz like Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh, just like a fluorescent Yeah, like a fluorescent.

Mm-hmm.

But like, you know, the flickering almost.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm just sitting there watching this and I'm just like, everything's clean.

I've got like a free cup of coffee and everything's chill.

But the contrast must, must have been totally.

You know, it was like right after I got back and I was just like, oh my gosh.

You know, and, and I had just gone to the recruit, the marine recruiting office, you know, and it didn't go well.

So I'm just like, what?

You know, what do you want me to do?

Right.

I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

And there was a magazine sitting there and it had, um, a Special Forces soldier, like fast roping out of a helicopter.

And it was talking on the cover of it.

I don't remember what magazine it was, but it was like the Army's new special forces recruiting program.

And I start reading about this 18 x-Ray program where you could come in off the street.

Um, at least at the time, this was, you know, in oh four, they were, they were looking for, I think typically one of people that were 21.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and not there was people that were younger that, that signed up for it, but.

21, some college certainly didn't hurt.

I had taken some college classes.

Um, and then you had to of course take the ASVAB and a psych eval and language aptitude test and score a certain level and then a flight physical and you know, so if you checked all those boxes, but I was reading about the mission about foreign internal defense.

Yes.

And sort of the humanitarian side of what Special Forces does.

It's not just, you know, kicking doors down and going after H vts.

It's um, it is more than that, you know, nation building at some level.

Yeah, exactly.

And that was appealing.

I think just the knowing.

And at the end of the day, during that 20 year war, most units at some level were doing foreign internal defense.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Like working with, uh, because eventually we, the whole mission was train, advise, assist, you know, 15 years after nine 11 or whatever.

But, um, but anyway, yeah, it was, uh, it just kind of checked those boxes and they, oppress bear was the motto, which means to free the oppressed and that just.

Just they had, I was in a vulnerable state and it just, it hit me, man.

I was like, yes, that's what I wanna do.

I've gotta hit on something.

You've mentioned this word a couple of times and it resonates heavily with me.

And it's this idea, you know, people joined the military for a, a myriad of different reasons.

Yeah.

Um, and you've mentioned service a couple of times.

So the reason that you went to Darfur, right?

The reason that you joined, it seems like it's, I mean, again, the, the motto right?

You know, uh, of the Green Beret, what was there, what part of your upbringing was, did anything center you towards an idea of service?

I'm from the Bay Area, uh, uh, like you are as well.

And from what I remember of my upbringing, we were a very proud area, but we weren't super overly patriotic, if that makes sense.

Totally.

Um, but the idea of service was instilled into me again by my family.

Did you have something like that?

Because service seems, as I look now through the chapters of your life, I can see the common denominator and the common thread for me is continues to be service.

Did that get, uh, instilled into you, uh, very early or was that something that you came on your own?

Um, no, I mean, it definitely, well, I will say discipline and like pick up after yourself, you know, take care of yourself, like handle your business so that other people aren't having to, you know, you're not burdening other people with that.

That was always instilled.

And, and both my grandfathers served in World War ii.

Hmm.

And I didn't, I didn't get to know one of 'em.

One of 'em passed when I was like three months old.

I think I'm the only grandchild he met.

Um, and then the other one, um, just passed 10 years ago or so, maybe not even that seven years ago.

But I never, and I, we talked a little bit about, but I never really asked.

And I regret not doing that too much about that.

But I think just the way, first of all, that generation kind of carried themself.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and probably the way that they raised a lot of their kids.

Mm-hmm.

Um, not all of them certainly, but at least my parents, like they had, um, you know, some, some, some strong like.

Character, um, you know, high character people that raised them and, and sort of expected and demanded maybe even, uh, a certain standard Sure.

Uh, be done.

And, and uh, so I, there was certainly that, there was something I was thinking about, um, yesterday too, that, that I, that I thought was kind of interesting and it, it, it was, you know, it's not even that I had, um, that they had military in their background.

But when I think of, when I think of service, for instance, as a, as pertains to my mom, right?

Like, this is a person that, like I said, got that, got a PhD at Cal, you know, so we grew, I grew up in El Cerrito, right?

Between, mostly in El Cerrito, right?

Between Berkeley and Richmond.

Mm-hmm.

You know, Berkeley's, you know, very, you know, the hippie revolution and all that, Richmond's a pretty rough area.

Um, so it was, it was very, you know, kind of interesting and, and, and diverse neighborhood, which I appreciated.

But not a ton of military, not a ton of veterans live there that I know of.

I mean, maybe more than I realized.

Probably Vietnam era.

Yeah.

But, um, but she was the type of person that, um, she's like the, the sort of poster child in my mind of service, because she worked full-time, you know, in a, in a complicated, um, challenging job.

Um, at, you know, as an engineer.

She worked at Oak Ridge National Lab Yeah.

Out there.

And then she worked at, uh, Livermore National Lab in the Bay, in Grand Junction National Lab in Colorado.

Yeah.

And, um, but she also, uh, not that my dad was not helping, he was, but he, he.

Doing the racehorse veterinarian thing.

He was 60, 80 hours a week sometimes.

So he was always at the track.

It was, yeah.

Seven days a week.

Damn.

They they race on Christmas every day.

Yeah.

What was the name of the track?

Was it Golden Gate?

Golden Gate Fields.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

He worked a little bit at, helped at Bay Meadows and he would come down here to Del Mar.

Yeah.

In the summers for a couple of weeks too, which was, that was fun.

'cause we get to come down and visit him.

Yeah.

I was there a few weeks ago, as a matter of fact.

Beautiful.

It's incredible to see those, I mean, just the, the animals are just absolute powerhouse.

I mean, just something of like pure beauty of being, you know, honed and, and it was just like watching their muscle fibers as they like, just strut by amazing athletes.

Like just pound for pound insane.

Like, and just, and very intelligent creatures too.

Yeah.

Super inte.

Emotionally intelligent.

Like, it's wild.

Um, but, but yeah, so my mom's doing that, but then she's also, you know, there's, there's three of us and we didn't have a lot when I was growing up.

We lived in a, in El Cerrito, it was like a, a little two bedroom house.

So me and my brother and sister and one bedroom, you know, and, uh, just one bathroom, you know, and then me, and eventually.

Moved Colorado and got a little bigger, bigger place and then came back to California.

And, you know, they both worked very hard to get, to get in a more comfortable spot.

But, you know, with that, she's like doing that.

She was finishing her PhD and then she went right into work all the while raising kids.

And I, I can, I could, I could, I can't think of a morning where I woke up and she wasn't like making sure I was like getting ready for whatever I needed to do.

Do.

That's awesome.

You know what I mean?

It wasn't like she's in the kitchen, you know, flipping pancakes and like, whatever.

But if I asked for that, if I wanted, she would just, she'd figure it out, you know?

Or if like, unless I was, unless I didn't deserve it, you know what I mean?

But like, she just, there was never like a, a wondering if this is gonna happen or if like someone's gonna pick me up or the, like, just on top of everything.

So like, when I think of service in that way towards her family while also.

Doing, you know, pursuing her dreams and doing her, doing her job and whatever.

Like she didn't, you know, she, what she sacrificed was like, didn't have much of a social life, didn't really have a lot of hobbies outside of that because she loved her family that much.

Yeah.

And she loved what she did, and she just was always serving, you know, at some level.

So, so I definitely had that and I didn't realize that until way later in life because you just don't know.

You sure, sure, sure, sure.

Have no idea when, when you're, you know, especially when I think when you're lucky.

So lucky to have a two baren home like that, that is working, you know?

And both people are working, but still, like, there's never really a Yeah.

You know, where's, there's never really that feeling of absence.

I don't know how they did it, but they did it.

You're just, you're so, um, you don't realize, 'cause you don't, you don't know anything.

You don't know otherwise.

You don't know anything else.

You know, I have, I had no other perspective of what that like, and by you repaid her by going to Sudan, which like, I'm sure every mother out there is like, what the No, I mean, you, that's what you do though.

You rebel.

That's what you do.

And like, and eventually all those things they taught me, I think certainly helped.

And I don't, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have made it through Special forces training without so many of the lessons and examples that they set forth, you know, and they're not, they weren't, uh, out there ruck, marching or anything like that, you know?

But you just, that, that stuff relates.

Yeah, I do.

So, so I mean, just talking about, uh, selection and whatnot, what group do you end up going to or do you enjoy it through this process?

You like, this is the place for me.

Yeah.

Let's go do some more land nav.

Let's put on this ruck.

Yeah.

You finding it?

Yeah.

I mean, I, I, uh.

I went initially, I went to first group, I was in, uh, Okinawa in one, one.

Um, I was there like three months.

And the ODA that I was going to was like falling apart, you know, there was like, they were, they, they, they were doing away with this team.

Um, and it wasn't so much the guys on the team, it was just they were restructuring and they were, this is right around when they were gonna, they were gonna start, uh, building fourth, a fourth battalion in each group.

So what year was this?

Things were changing?

This is in, oh, end of oh six, early oh seven.

Okay.

By the time I got through the queue and everything, it took a couple years.

It's a long, it, you know, it's a long process.

Familiar.

It's a long process.

And, uh, so yeah, so I went there and, and that was happening and I was like, man, I just was chomping at the bit, you know, I wanted to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, like everybody pretty much did.

And, uh, anybody in, in SF anyway, for the most part, everyone's looking for a deployment, you know, they want to go do what they were trained to do, and.

Be of service.

Um, and so then it was like, well, now I'm gonna get go to this other team and we're gonna go to the Philippines for a year.

And I was like, oh man, I don't know.

I don't wanna do this.

This did sort of p down there, or?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, it, and it was, it was, it would've been a, technically a combat deployment.

You know, it was OEFP, they're calling Morro Islamic Liberation Federation in the area.

Yeah.

And it down in, I think, yeah, we were gonna be in a polo.

What is the, yeah, what is the other, there is a terrorist organization that was, I, it might have just been part of Al-Qaeda.

They might had a network in Philippines as well.

I can't remember exactly.

It was almost like a QP, basically.

Okay.

Okay.

Is the same vein, if you will.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, but nevertheless, I mean, maybe if I'd already, I probably would've been more interested in it if I'd already had at least one rotation in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Kind of knew what to expect, but I was just like, ah, man, I don't wanna do that.

So then we won't get too much into this, but I, uh.

There was another, um, elite unit that I went to go try out for, and I got selected.

Yeah.

But, you know, I had no combat experience.

Mm-hmm.

I had no real, uh, experience.

So I, I, I got to go through the training course there and learned a ton.

Um, but I wasn't, I wasn't ready to go, you know, deploy with that unit.

So from there I got to pick which, uh, special forces group I wanted to go to next, which was really cool.

And, and great of them were like, not something that's super known in the military.

They're like you.

Yeah, exactly.

They're like, you gotta go get a couple years of experience back in group, get a couple rotations, and then come back.

You know, and so I went to, to 10th, I picked 10th group.

'cause Fort Carson was a real, really nice base.

Mm-hmm.

Beautiful.

Mm-hmm.

And I got to, I got put on a Halo team.

Oh yeah.

You know, I, it's not like the marine base, like all your bases are nice.

Yeah, right.

That's a great one in the army.

Yeah, it is beautiful.

I mean, it's right there at, you know, Cheyenne Mountain and Pikes Peak in the background and it's pretty cool.

Halo team.

That's cool.

Yeah.

And it was a Halo team.

And then, you know, it was, we, we would, our PT would go, we'd go mountain bike, you know, up and like do, it was fun.

It was a good time.

But also this team was going to, uh, I think in the next two or three months, they were going to a rack.

So it was like, we're gonna put you on this team and go do that.

And so that's what I did.

So a really 10th group.

And so now, it's, now at this point I'd been in the Army, um, you know, almost three years.

Mm-hmm.

And still hadn't deployed.

Um, a lot of training.

Uh, the cool part about that also though, is once I got to that team.

Even though I'm the new guy and in a sense, straight outta the course, not, not just the Q course, though, I got, you know, some other specialized training that include included a lot more, um, you know, CQB and, and, and, and range time.

So now I got like the Bravos, like the weapons guys on our team kind of picking my brain about stuff and I was like, this is cool.

And everybody wants to know Right.

Know what it's like.

What was selection line?

Right, exactly.

Exactly.

What's the inside scoop?

Exactly.

So that, I mean, that was certainly, that was nice because um, I felt like I was bringing something to the table, not just, you know, the new guy that's learning.

So then, you know, by the time we did go over there and deploy, I felt very much, even though I'd only been on that team a couple months mm-hmm.

I felt very much like part of the team already.

And like, I, I in a sense earned some of my stripes even though I hadn't, you know, I hadn't gone on a mission yet.

Essentially.

That's super prevalent with veterans around that timeframe is.

There's like this idea of almost imposter syndrome.

Mm-hmm.

Or this constant, like I have to talk to people a lot because they're like, why would you want to go to combat?

And the best way that I've ever found to describe it is, uh, now I can't speak from experience 'cause I got cut from the teams that I tried out for when I was in high school.

But, uh, it's like practicing for the football game.

Right.

And then not being able to play on Friday night.

Right.

Right.

It's the thing that you work up where you spend every waking hour thinking about, so of course you wanna do your job well.

Uh, and I've had to deal with a, you know, I have the work with a lot of veterans who, or guys in the service that felt that there was like this idea of haves and have nots mm-hmm.

Guys who haven't done the thing and who are, and there's like this weird association of credibility.

I'm really glad that you came from another organization that gave you that step up and that Oh, like, a bit, a bit of confidence as well to step right into a, a team, you know, seamlessly before you started.

Yeah.

You know, your deployment, I mean, as corny as it sounds like it worked out exactly how it was supposed to.

Yeah.

Like I needed that extra time.

I needed more, I needed more training anyway.

I needed to, I think, scratch that competitive itch to the fullest until it was like, until you get humbled.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I needed to get humbled to, I needed them.

I needed to be like, okay, this is, you're not here though.

You're not, you had to have been feeling good.

I mean, like, not many people make it through that pipeline.

Yeah.

I've never, never seen that.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Yeah.

It was, it was, it was, I was in, you know, I was in the best shape of my life.

Yeah.

I was 26 when I went out there and, um, just a snake eater.

Yeah.

And just like, you know, nothing, no aches and pains somehow, like I, uh, yeah.

I remember your forties called, right?

Yeah, exactly.

You know, it's completely different now.

I'm sitting here, sciatica, flaring up.

I'm like, just everything.

But yeah.

And back then, like nothing, I just, and my dad would always ask me.

Because I, I, you know, I had some injuries in high school and he was like, how are your knees?

How is this?

And I'm like, I don't have any issues.

I don't know, I'm like jumping outta stuff all the time and, you know, humping heavy things.

And, um, yeah, every reason why I should be hurting and I'm just like, I, I'm not, I'm good.

And uh, you know, that definitely changed that.

I think it started at 34 for me.

Yeah.

That was either 33 or 34.

All of a sudden, like everything starts falling apart.

It just catches up real quick.

It catches up quick.

Um, so, so 2008, uh, you deployed to Iraq.

Where in Iraq did you go gu?

Early eight.

We went to, uh, Naja.

Yeah.

And you know what an interesting place, like the Shiite Holy City Babylon is right there.

Yeah.

Um, so I remember because I was so curious about that.

'cause I just, uh, my last two years of high school I went to a, a Christian high school and so we studied Bible.

It was literally one of your, your classes is Bible.

And reading about that, the history of the Bible was more interesting to me than anything.

Um, because I just love and I love geography, you know, and stuff like that.

So once I was there, I'm like, this is crazy.

This is Cradle of Civilization right here.

Yes.

One of the, there's two, I think two in Iraq of the, uh, there's the Tower of Babel, of the, uh, well, I think, well there's Baab, the Gardens of Babylon.

You have Gardens of Babylon.

And, and, and then I don't know what the other, maybe I'm mistaken, but I think there's two in Iraq that are two of the seven Ancient Wonders of the world, or Oh, yeah.

Seven Wonders of the Ancient World or whatever it's called.

And the only one that's still, you know, that we can still see is the pyramids, but um, I'm like, this is crazy.

The Tigers and Euphrates.

Yeah.

You know, the Fertile Crescent, all this stuff.

I was like, this is super interesting.

And uh, and then we went to like Nebuchadnezzar's Palace.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like that was, we were coming back from a mission one day and it was just like.

It was almost like, let's just pull in here and check it out.

Kids, you know, and there's nobody there, right?

I mean, there's like one of Saddam's palaces up on the hill.

You could take like Liberty tours there if you had some time off.

Like, I remember going into that Interesting, right after OI F1 in between the, you know, the awakening, if you will.

But we had So that's in though, well, that's in oh four.

Oh, correct.

So it was technically late oh three.

Okay.

Okay.

So Saddam hadn't been captured yet, but we could take like, it was a weird, crazy, it was a weird time in the war.

That's crazy.

So 2003, we took like buses basically from where we were stationed up to, uh, up to, and like straight up.

And then like went on the tour and I found a buddy of mine that I went to bootcamp with, and it was, if you only had these things back then, oh my God.

Just been amazing.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, and, you know, I redeploy back to United States in like September of oh three, and then the awakening begins, right?

And so then the, the insurgency picks up and then all bets are off, right?

So none of that stuff really existed anymore, but.

I have a picture of me with like the ancient lions and the blue tile and all this kind of stuff in the city.

Yes.

Well, there's, excuse me.

Yeah, there's uh, there's that, um, that statue outside mm-hmm.

Of the lion mauling.

I think it's supposed to be a, a Jew.

I I really do.

We're gonna edit that part out.

No, it's true.

I mean, I think that's, I think that's what it's supposed to be.

Yeah.

Um, you know, it's an old, uh, uh, uh, long statue.

Mm-hmm.

And there was a, the saddle on the lion was, was solid gold.

It's gone.

Somebody obviously took it, you know.

Yeah.

But it, uh, there was, and it was, I don't remember how old it was, but it had been there for mm-hmm.

You know, it wasn't as old as Nebuchadnezzar's Palace, but it had been there for a long time, I think.

Um, and that was just like, yeah.

Super interesting to like, see that stuff and, and walk through.

There was, I mean, this is, yeah.

Granted, this is oh eight, so it's much later than it's five years after.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it was pretty much like kind of blocked off and.

Whatever, but we, you know, we just went anyway.

Um, but you weren't supposed, you definitely weren't supposed to at the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, rules don't seem to be a thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Rules, yeah.

Suggestions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Suggestions.

Suggestions.

But, uh, but yeah, it was, uh, yeah, that was, that was just, it was just a cool place to, to be staged.

No, also the biggest cemetery in the world is in Oh, I didn't know that.

That's huge.

It's like the size of freaking San Diego.

Really?

I mean, not really, but like, it is very big.

Um, you, you driving around it takes forever really.

I mean, it's, it's literally, uh, father Abraham is buried there and all these like, historical and biblical characters Oh, wow.

Um, that a lot of the religions celebrate, you know, as part of their, their history, um, are buried there.

And, uh, yeah.

So just, there was actually a really big, uh, there was a, a, a firefight right before we got there.

The marines were involved, I think four Marines were, were killed in the, in the cemetery.

And so after that, you know, they were like, all right, we, we really gotta be, 'cause.

This is also a time when we're trying to hand things off to the provincial governors to sort of dictate Yeah.

You know, which was complicated, the foreign policy and very corrupt at times, kind of mess that we were dealing with in that timeframe.

I remember kind of, I, I think that this is my own personal opinion, but I think that it's like we, we entered into the war not knowing how to end it.

Um, yeah.

And then we kind of just lingered for a long time is what it really felt like, and we're like, oh crap, what do we do now?

Uh, is what it felt like, uh, from my perspective at least.

Yeah, no, that's fair.

That's, I, I mean, I don't disagree.

I, I very uneducated on most of it, but I do have my feelings on maybe not how we would've ended it, but.

Maintained at least a little bit of what we were trying to build by keeping a few hundred soft guys out there.

Sure.

Especially Green Berets.

Right.

This is your bread and butter.

Right, exactly.

And they wanna be there anyway.

Yeah.

It's like, they're like, we gotta get them home.

And they're just like, no, we'd rather be, this is what we signed up to do.

Let us try to see if we can see this thing through and build something.

And if it doesn't work, okay, but like, don't just, you know, anyway.

Yeah.

It's political.

Sure, sure, sure.

Difference it happens.

Yeah.

But you're right.

I mean, there wasn't, yeah, that's, I think that's, that's pretty accurate.

There wasn't exactly a, we didn't know what winning even really looked like, you know what I mean?

But, you know, we could get a strategic victory.

Right.

You know, and we could take, or a tactical victory, but Right.

When it came to like this, you know, large macro kind of thing, I, again, I wasn't in the rooms when these decisions were being made.

Yeah.

I was, you know, a dude on the ground, um, you know, handling it.

But I, I completely agree with that.

Well, much later in 2013.

I did a, uh, just like a three and a half month rotation at, at a camp Integrity out in Kabul.

Okay.

And it was, there's a lot of stars on shoulders Right.

And stuff like that.

So I was just combat taxi driver, you know what I mean?

I was driving people to, to meetings.

Really?

Yeah.

You know, to key leader engagements to, I mean, like, and some of the top key leaders in the, in the, you know, in the, in the country.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I was privy to, you know, just being in that opsin every day waiting for, you know, a time to go drive around another general or dignitary or whatever.

Um, and just kind of hearing and observing that, like being a fly on the wall leadership.

Totally.

And it was like fascinating.

Everybody's doing everything they can, but to your point, it was like, and they all kind of knew like, this is, but it's just whack-a-mole.

Like yes, we're gonna get this guy on the deck of cards or whatever, but then there's gonna be a new jack of.

Hearts, you know, or whatever.

Someone fleets up, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And it's not gonna stop.

This is not, we're not really gaining tons of ground here.

We're doing the right thing as best as we can, but like, what is the real, you know, what is the real plan?

Like, how are we going to kind of get over the top?

And anytime there was ideas like that, maybe it involved, um, more loss of life than, than, you know, Washington wanted to take responsibility for or whatever, and whether it's on our side or other sides, but it could have, I don't know, but maybe it would've completely shifted things.

But there was always the, it's like the short term fear of the backlash.

So it was never just that stuff never really was fully, you know, kind of implemented.

Right.

It felt like we were, um.

There was a back and forth, like an ebb and flow between the tacticians on the ground looking for the specific victories that we needed, or milestones that we needed for victory and stabilization.

And then the cost, whether it be the cost of human lives or the physical cost of, you know, dollars and cents of what that would be to the American taxpayer.

And I know that that was just this war of attrition that I felt that we were, uh, you know, losing.

And I think that that ultimately led to a lot of foreign policy decisions.

And then also our enemy being so adept at understanding how we had fought wars in the past, how we had been, you know, defeated in wars in the past.

And I think almost digging down, again, this is my opinion, but almost kind of like digging their heels and saying, well.

That's how you attack a giant, right?

Right.

Is you, you know, death from a thousand cuts.

Right.

Lose the stability back home so that their will to fight.

Uh, you know, and the American population loses their want, uh, of that.

And, and there's also like all the little, you know, the economy and the military industrial complex Oh yeah.

And all these other things.

Oh yeah.

They probably play a role big time.

But, you know, I was just, you know, I was an E six, so I was an enlisted guy.

I didn't have Not our space.

Yeah.

Not our space.

But then just, I really, I hated it while I was there.

'cause I was like, I wanna be bound to od I wanna be back on an OD Yeah.

Of course.

Doing what we're supposed to be doing.

And I'm like, stuck here.

But there was a lot of value in that, I think, and kind of just learning and seeing.

And you know, I just remember being, for instance, I remember, um, like when, uh, when Bergdahl happened, I was in country.

I was in country, you know, and it was like all over the, you know, it's all over the airwaves and everybody's talking about it and.

Later.

I'm glad that it all came out, like what was actually going on and how frustrating it was for a lot of people and the resources, um, dedicated to that and the loss of life, you know, um, was really frustrating.

But it's like, it just shows how powerful like media and optics are over what you're actually doing and what's maybe the most important thing.

Not that we shouldn't get our guy back, no matter what they did, right or wrong.

Like, you get 'em out, you bring him home.

Like, for sure.

But at the same time it was like at, you know, at what cost.

Mm-hmm.

And like, what are we, what are we doing?

And there's a lot of that amongst the enlisted guys throughout when you're on those missions.

Like, what are we doing?

Yeah.

Why are we doing this?

A lack of context.

I don't understand.

Yeah.

So I mean, AJ is, I think obviously we've had your story on here and like your.

You are a marine rifleman sniper.

You're recon eventually, like I was terrible, terrible with all of those.

By the way.

You're going in, you're knocking on doors and, and taking HPTs and taking ground.

I gotta think of Green Berets as, as what you were describing earlier, Nate, like this force enabler, force multiplier.

Um, when you're getting into your first rotation, like what is your first mission?

Like, is it what you expected?

Is it completely different?

Oh man.

Well, honestly the very first mission was uh, 'cause I was part of the Aon team, so I'd got there a few weeks before.

Not the rest of the team, but most of our team.

I think I went out there with our.

Maybe start team sergeant and captain and, 'cause I was a new guy.

I was a young guy, so it's like, and I was single, everybody, pretty much everybody else on my team.

That's generally the deciding factor on things like that.

Pretty much.

We've talked about this a lot, pretty much everybody else on the team had Mama.

I've done a lot of duty because I was single.

A lot of like Christmas duty.

Exactly.

It's like, come on, dude.

Um, but, but yeah.

So it would, but they also, you know, they all, the rest of the team also lives vicariously through you.

Yeah.

There's a trade off.

They're like, Nate, tell us what happened last night.

What happened this weekend, dude?

Because I didn't do anything.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm mow the lawn.

But you probably wanted to be on the Aon, like you were saying.

Oh no, all this time.

Like bed in there.

The bed, exactly.

I was ready to go, so, no, but I went and, and it's like, you know, we're doing the handoff and I, I remember there was a, we had, we were like basically leading the convoy down.

I think it was.

Probably a lot of our equipment that had come in or something.

Um, so probably from Baghdad down into Jaff or something like that.

I can't remember exactly.

But, you know, we're driving and then the, uh, the lead vehicle or the second vehicle got hit by an IED, you know, driver, driver killed instantly, sadly.

Oh, gunner thrown from the tour, you know, and so it's like, I think that was, 'cause that was week one, right?

So that was really the fir And we might have done some other, you know, definitely not like a, a hit or anything, like a tar, you know, we hadn't gone off to any targets or anything yet.

We were just getting people there.

So this was like, uh, yeah, it was like our, so our medic was there too.

And I remember, uh, I was definitely kind of like, whoa.

'cause that's the first one.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And, and sorry, was that an Iraqi vehicle that got hit or was it another ODA that you were Right Seat.

It was an American, no, it was actually, um, it was our OD part.

Some of our ODA, some of their ODA.

But also it was, uh, some of the B team, 'cause the, the, the person that that was killed was not a, was not an SF guy.

He was a support guy.

Okay.

Um, he was in our, you know, he was in our, uh, battalion, but he was, uh, but that, that vehicle was all support guys.

Actually.

It was like comms, I think it was maybe two comms guys and then, I can't remember, but Exactly.

But the, yeah, the driver was killed.

The, the gunner was, you know, pitched out.

The TC was like on fire, you know, and, you know, I, I jump out and I'm just, you know, directed to like, I'm pulling security on the side of the road.

We're trying to figure out where at, you know, trying to find these guys, you know, whoever clicked the button or whatever.

Right.

And, um, but then I just remember seeing our medic, uh, who eventually was in that same unit that I was, uh, that I wasn't the right guy for.

Um, and he, you know, was like sprinting past sprints up into the Humvee and, you know.

Uh, pulling somebody out, um, and treats him and then they get, you know, and they, he saved, saved his life, which is really cool to see.

Um, obviously terrible that we, uh, we lost somebody, but I remember, yeah, I just remember being on the side of the road and I'm trying, I'm trying to, it's smoke everywhere.

It's really hard to see anyway, but you, you see, maybe you see silhouette of somebody in the distance.

It's daytime.

Um, you know, and I'm just like, do I, what do I do right now?

Am I supposed to call in everything I see?

'cause there's chaos out here and everybody's all over the radios, and I'm just like, so I just kind of shut up and just, if I don't see any threat, I'm just gonna not do anything right now.

And then finally, like the dust settles and they're cleaning up.

Um, you know, the, the Humvees put out and they're cleaning up.

And uh, I'm all of a sudden, like I.

Smell, uh, I smell like barbecue chicken.

What I thought was like barbecue chicken.

And I was just like, who?

You know, like, what, who is barbecuing now?

Like, honestly, that's what I kind of thought.

Not the time guys, like, what's going on?

And then I realized it was the body, you know, it was, uh, it was his body and like, so I like look over my shoulder and it's like his, you know, it's just a charred torso basically that's being kind of shoveled up.

And I'm just like, and the guy in says, he's like, oh, here, I found his torso.

You know, like very, almost like a to hum kind of, you know, like a gallows, not gallows humor, but just like this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just matter of fact, matter of fact, just kind of dead pan.

Yeah.

Matter of fact, not, yeah, it was, uh, yeah.

So like that was the very first And you're a week thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's heavy.

It might not even have been a week, but it was the first week, but it was just like, whoa, okay.

This is like.

This is definitely real, you know, not that I didn't think it was real before, but mm-hmm.

You just don't know till you Sure.

You know, I can't even imagine.

Um, earlier on, you know, especially three, I guess five years prior to that really.

I mean, when was the, was that your first rotation in Uh, no, I was in, uh, Iraq in oh three in the invasion.

Mm-hmm.

I was like 18 years old.

Uh, and then 19 and 20 in Fallujah, and then I did a third tour in Iraq, uh, in 2006 timeframe.

Gotcha.

Um, so yeah, I spent like, I chewed the same dirt, uh Right, right.

In the same areas.

And you're right, there's always this.

I remember getting to Iraq in 2003 and it having almost this like ethereal, not necessarily charm, but it was the Middle East.

It was the first time I was in a Muslim country.

Yeah.

Right.

The desert was extremely gorgeous.

Right.

And then by the time I got to the third deployment, I didn't even notice the horizon anymore.

You know, I was raised my mom, you know, Northern California was like an artist.

Yeah.

Um, and so I was raised to kind of like, look at the world in that kind of, you know, capacity.

And by the time I had gotten on my third deployment, it was just bleak.

And it was like this checking the, the clock, you know, the timecard Right.

And, and just trying to survive another seven months, you know, as the marine deployments were during that timeframe.

Right, right.

Yeah.

No, it's, it's super different.

I remember hearing stories from guys, uh, you know, uh.

Whether they were 82nd airborne guys or wherever during the Q course.

Mm-hmm.

In oh five, you know, um, and they'd been Yeah.

Four times.

Yeah.

Or whatever, you know, like back to back to back.

Damn dude.

Chill out.

Right.

Save stuff for the rest of us.

Yeah.

And the things that they, you know, you know, and there was, that's a different time.

It's such a different time.

So, uh, we definitely were busy.

We definitely, um, did some really good things.

We actually, in one of the weeks out there during that deployment, I think we got the number, at least in our region, like the number two and number three guys in the same week, which was cool.

So that unit I try out for the same, um, one of the, the commanders who was out there came by and visited us and he remembered me from No kidding.

Before, which was cool.

Wow.

And it was like, you know, and he, and they came down there 'cause they were just really just to be like, um, if we need, you know, if there's anything they can help with or, you know, partner on.

'cause we, we were doing a good job, you know, as far as, uh, I guess the best that we could do for, you know, the shit sandwich you're, uh, handed in all these situ.

Try to manage.

Yeah, exactly.

But, so that was, I mean, that was kind of, that was really cool.

That was really cool.

Nick, real quick.

Yeah, of course.

Did they come into a room with you guys and they're like, yeah, I remember you.

Mm-hmm.

Because that would be like, Sabin goes into a room and then he's like, Nate, I know you right out all the other guys.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

It was, I mean, I don't remember exactly how that all went down, but I just remember when he got off the bird, I was like, oh, I, I, I, I, I probably wouldn't say his name even if I could remember it, but I can't remember.

Can't remember his, can't remember his name off top.

We appreciate that.

Yeah.

Ate, I can't remember off top of head.

I was like, oh, that's, you know, yeah.

X yeah, yeah, exactly.

That's major.

So and so, and I was like, that's, that's cool.

You know?

That is really cool.

He's here to like pat us in the back.

Yeah.

And like, I'm like, awesome.

Like we're, you know, that, that felt good because, so as a Marine we didn't, um, work with the ODAs very often.

We would see you guys right in, you're like, tricked out Humvees or Little Birds and things like that.

Yeah.

What were the type of missions that you ran specifically in the Oh, uh, the oh 8, 0 9 timeframe.

So was it all fi or were you doing, you know, HVT wrap-ups or key leader engagements, or was it a myriad of all of these?

It was a myriad of all of them.

Um, definitely for a period in the middle of that deployment, there was a lot more of the HVT stuff, and that's when we got those, those two guys.

Right.

Um, but not endless key leader engagements, which aren't exactly that fun.

You're essentially, for those that don't know, you know, you're sitting down with maybe a warlord or, um, or, or, or sometimes it's the, uh, you know.

Commander of a certain unit of military or, you know, we stood up in a, uh, Iraqi, uh, SF unit in our region, but also a SWAT team.

So we were working with the police as well.

Oh, fantastic.

Which was interesting.

Um, almost all of our missions also were bilateral, so we were great.

You know, alongside, so it would be US 12, the ODA, and sometimes it'd be 20 or 30, um, Iraqi SF guys.

Sometimes it'd be 70 or bigger.

You know, we had a few missions where we partnered with another ODA, like we went to, like, I know we had something.

We went up to nazarea, um, and Fallujah and some other places, uh, and worked with other ODAs on, you know, but typically it was, yes, it was like we are, even if they're not considered I guess an HVT we are, um, you know.

Developing sources and, um, tracking cell phones.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so we had the dogs out there and we had, I can't even remember what those things are called that are tracking the cell phone.

Oh yeah.

Pinging the cell phones, you know what I mean?

Because you get the number and then you're, and then you go and, and, and roll 'em up and, um, question him and try to find out who his boss is and then build the, the network.

Right.

Exactly.

And keep going.

Dang.

So, yeah, so it was like there was plenty going on towards the end of the deployment, things started to slow down.

'cause also, um, that was when, you know, we cha changed out precedence.

Correct.

So that's also something that understandably, whether it's, you know, you saw it with.

The current administration, you know, like there's just drastic change.

Yeah.

Um, whether you agree with it or not, you know, not, not for me to say, but that happens.

That has definitely felt on a deployment as as well.

Especially when you were there, right?

Yeah.

I mean like November of 2008.

Right.

We have now moved from Right.

And, and part of Obama's policy that he ran on was draw down.

Mm-hmm.

Was pulling us out of not just a two front war, but both wars.

Uh, and then I, you know, ironically he gets into the job, gets a lot of the briefs, and then Afghan starts to pick up, you know, drastically.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So it was, that was kind of the end of.

Most, I would say, I guess offensive operations in Iraq.

Not the end, but the dwindling down for sure.

Um, because yeah, the, I remember the last month or so I was there, it was almost like a pause.

I mean, we were, I felt bad for the next ODA coming in because like we're handing that off now and they're just like kind of hamstrung a little bit, you know, and they can't do, and they're like, in this waiting game, like, what are, what's foreign policy going to be?

Totally, totally.

So like, my problem, just, here's all the targets.

Yeah.

Like, you won't after, but you get to handle it.

Yeah.

But you just know they're in this area.

Good luck, man.

Yeah, no.

Uh, so that was, and they were watching the election as much as we were, right?

Totally.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

Totally.

But yeah, it was, uh, so that was really, yeah.

The, the, but to your point, yeah.

All, all of those things.

And I liked doing all those things and a lot of training.

We were training, like I said, we stood up that, uh, one of the coolest moments was.

Holding a selection for these Iraqi, uh, soldiers.

And they all had to volunteer to be there.

There was not, we made sure we, like, we worked with their, um, commanders and we're like, we don't want you to just make a list and send us these people.

We want them, they want, they have to apply, you know, just like we did.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Um, 'cause we want people that want to be here and want to do this, and they understand like, we're gonna, you know, some of the stuff will be dangerous.

Of course.

Um, and I don't, they probably didn't pay 'em any extra.

It's probably just a point of pride.

But that was cool because the guys, some of those guys, I remember when they graduated, you know, we gave 'em a piece of paper Sure.

With a stamp on it, and they're like in tears.

They're so proud because they'd never, that's awesome.

You know?

Yeah.

And they had to go through it.

This selection was, it was obviously shorter and not, but we put 'em through it.

Yeah.

Like, we didn't make it easy.

Like we were, you know, running them hard and like doing the whole gig pit stuff, you know, and like the whole thing like's why, what, what is that?

So, oh, like, uh.

Just putting them, getting 'em out in the sand, hosing them down, and they're just like, you know, pushups and flutter kicks and they call it a gig pit.

We, we don't do that in the aviation world, just in case.

We, we, we had these things call the gig pits in, uh, yeah.

The aviation realm iss more like ice cream sundaes.

Yeah.

Right.

The old World War II barracks at Fort Bragg, um, is where you had, uh, it's called Special Operations Preparatory course.

It might be called something different now, but it was a month long before the 18 x-rays went to selection.

You had to pass that, and the attrition rate was higher there than the x-rays in selection.

So it was like, it was smart because the army shouldn't be wasting time and money.

On guys that are gonna quit.

You just can't do it.

You know what I mean?

You just, you just can't do it.

So they, you know, instead it's like, well, we're gonna, we'll get basic and airborne.

We'll go there.

We'll just hose 'em down, make literally, yeah.

They're not gonna sleep very much.

It's gonna be a really shitty month.

It's like their version of Wet and sandy.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And, and you know, um, yeah, sugar, you just sugar cookie.

You used a sugar cookie all day long and, uh, you're, yeah, you're, you're miserable.

And I guess depending on the time of year, I was, it was in the middle of summer for me, so it was just crazy.

I just never had heat rash and all these things, you know?

But really just for that one, there wasn't, they weren't crazy about the time standards on, I mean, they were, we were doing land nav and all that, but it was just like, we're just gonna see who's gonna quit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was just, just a suck test.

Who's gonna quit?

Yeah.

Right.

Because there was guys that were slogging through that and not doing well, um, but they just didn't quit.

And by the time they got selection, they figured a few things out and maybe got a little bit stronger and.

You know, better at land ever, whatever it was.

Yeah.

And then they made it through selection and went on to be, you know, green Beret.

So it was really just, yeah, it was just the, the, the gig pit was that, so we did that with these guys.

Yeah.

I love hearing that these guys were tough.

Like, I I think they were into, most people wouldn't expect that.

Right.

Totally.

I didn't expect that.

Because you hear the stories.

Yeah.

And granted, there are also, you know, sadly, well guys that are not only, um, dirty, you know, like, uh, will turn on us, right?

And it's rare, but it does happen.

But there's a lot of people that, a lot of those guys there, they're, you know.

They're just, they don't wanna be there.

They don't wanna be doing that job.

But, uh, it's nice.

We were fortunate to, it's nice seeing people have a, a love of their country.

Mm-hmm.

And an ownership, uh, and taking ownership.

Yeah.

When we would do any kind of, you know, it wasn't really much of our specific job when we were there, but we would associate, we would see that a lot of the SEAL teams were nested with us.

And so SEAL Teams had some FI requirements as well.

Um, and I remember seeing that and it was like very proud.

I worked with Afghan Special Forces later on, and the love that they had for their country was something that I could, uh, resonate with, you know, and, and, and I'm really glad, I think that there's so many different, you know, uh, dynamics in the military.

Like the Marines are kind of a sledgehammer.

That's what they're used for.

Break in case of war kind of thing.

We're not here to pick things up.

If you need it destroyed overnight, send the Marines.

Right?

Right.

But if you need to be able to have this thing sustain, right?

Yeah.

And then create a democracy and create, you know, people to defend that democracy, that's exactly what you guys are purpose built for.

And so I, again, I appreciate it from that, from that standpoint of, of like building those.

'cause I didn't never had a hand in that.

Uh, and I've always looked at that with a, a sense of like, awe, because you guys had a very difficult job, um, in creating little uses, right.

That we're gonna take on the mission in, in a super dynamic day.

Well, to speak on the Afghan piece, 'cause my last deployment was very late, it was 4 20 14.

Yeah.

And that one I got, I have, I was involved and it was short, three and a half months.

With the biggest, biggest firefight I was ever in was there then, so much later.

Where in Afghanistan?

Um, that was in the Afghani Valley.

I have never heard of that.

Afghan Ya Valley.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

And it's near what, not far.

So we were, I was at Camp Morehead, which is Ken Morehead was like an hour and a half or so outside of Kabul.

Okay.

In Caval Province, just outside of the capitol.

And it was, that was the, uh, the Afghan Commandos training Center.

So basically sort of their rangers.

Yep.

And so we were out there.

Um, there was two ODAs co-located out there, um, as well as, uh, so a, um, I can't special operations activities group maybe, but it was essentially SF led, um, higher planning, coordinating for the commandos, essentially.

Yeah.

I'm looking at pictures right now.

It's gorgeous.

A lot of green, the valley.

Yeah.

It almost looks like Colorado.

I mean No, it was so, it was a like a.

Eight, 10 hour Humvee Drive from Moorhead.

We were going very slow mountain roads and we didn't take the, we took the back road to Gidding, so we didn't know we were coming.

Can you talk us through that battle, mate?

Yeah, I can.

I can.

So essentially, the interesting part about this is, um, and I know we haven't really dove into that yet, but.

Or if we'll have a ton of time to do it, but I was in college and playing football at this time, so this was Oh, okay.

Yeah, this was, wait a second.

What?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We know about football.

I didn't realize that it happens because I'm looking at, at the sheet that we've created for you, and it says six years of active duty and I'm, you know, a marine, so we're not super great at math.

And I'm looking at 2000, how is 2005 to 2014?

That's not six.

That's not six.

I ran outta fingers reads are stepping it up.

Yeah, you're right.

My nose is gonna start bleeding, so, oh, so 10 years total in the military.

My last four in the guard.

Oh.

While I'm at University of Texas.

Oh, yes.

So I'm at ut.

Um, and I'd walked on, so I, I went to, in, in, uh, I walked onto the team in 2010, started going to school, took term, my terminal leave.

I never took leave when I was in.

So I had a ton of, you're like the perfect soldier, by the way.

Had like three months.

No, I'm not, you know what I would do?

I would like take a advantage of four day passes.

Yeah.

And all those things.

And then I would go, I mean, I would take some leave.

I'd go home for the holidays every year if we were not, I just sat here and studied my knowledge in the barracks I was in.

I remember I was in, uh, I was definitely, yeah, I did not do that.

Did not study my knowledge.

Uh, no.

The opposite.

I was just scamming, you know what I mean?

Like how can I stack these leave days?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, in case I want to take a big trip or something or, but anyway, it ended up just being, it was time to get out and I had, I literally had like 80 days of terminal leave or something.

Oh my gosh.

Or of leave.

I didn't have that when I retired.

So I took off early and just in time to start the semester at Texas and then go to football tryouts and did that.

So I made the team and I'm in the guard while I'm playing.

And so, you know.

Every summer the deal, I sort of struck with the guard because I was actually a approached by the, um, the company commander for one of the, uh, 19th group, uh mm-hmm.

You know, companies outta, and that's the guard.

Yeah.

Um, uh, company or guard battalion.

Yeah.

It was like, it was Bravo Company or Charlie five 19.

It was Charlie Company.

It was Bravo Company in the 10th group, sorry.

Charlie Company, fifth Battalion 19 Special Forces Group was the, it was the, uh, the company I was in and his, he played college football at Texas Tech, and his dad was a coach and one of the players on the team, like their parents were friends.

And so if the guy on the team was like, Hey, I met, I know this guy who's a Green Beret, he's still in the guard, and he said he wanted to, um, meet you or talk to you, if that's cool.

I'm like, of course I'd love to.

So I get on a call with him and he is like, Hey, just so you know, like the guard's a little bit different, you know, especially in sf, like we'll work around stuff.

Love that you're playing football, do not want you to stop doing that.

But if you're interested in still serving, like maybe in the summers you make yourself available, like, you know, we, we go on JS sets, sometimes there are deployment opportunities, you know, they, they might be adding a a a in onesies and twosies, you might be, um, augmenting ODAs or whatever.

I'm like, yeah, that sounds perfect.

Absolutely.

Most college kids don't do this on their summers in the summer.

They're gonna go back.

There's no football year old stuff.

Really?

There's no school.

It's, it's, it's humid in Austin.

Yeah.

I'm like, this is perfect.

Like, you know, my internship's gonna be in Afghanistan.

So, uh, so yeah, I got, uh, what I did was the first, the first year I went to Bulgaria, the second year I went to Greece.

Mm-hmm.

And then the, before my junior and senior years, I went to Afghanistan.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, two more times.

And that first one was the one I was talking about, um, at, uh, camp Integrity in Cobble.

Mm-hmm.

Where it was like, uh, you know, combat taxi driver.

Yeah.

Shuttling people.

Sure, sure, sure.

Exactly.

Um, and then, uh, which was crazy, I mean, that, that whole deployment was actually crazy.

There was like camp ERs got attacked.

We had a, a, a attack at the, uh, Kabul airport.

Um, obviously not the big one that happened, you know, in the fall in 2021.

But, um, yeah, big, I don't know if you guys remember this, in 13 there was a big like attack on the, uh mm-hmm.

On the Kale airport there and a bunch of, uh, a bunch of, uh, Afghans were killed.

And a few, a few, I think, I think at least one or two Americans were killed as well.

Relatively coordinated.

'cause Leatherneck was attacked.

Exactly.

Their airfield was attacked as well.

Yep.

I mean, so they saw our center of gravity and the center of gravity being our aviation assets, both Army and, you know, Navy and Marines.

Um, and then absolutely went, you know, for our jugular in that, trying to stop that.

Right.

So we, so integrity was right next to the airport.

So we, we were like, I mean, I was up in one of the crow's nests essentially, like watching this and waiting, because we could see from way far away our guy, some of our guys engaged with theirs and takeout, take out their, uh.

Whoever they were, I don't even remember.

Right.

Outta this building.

And then, but the expectation or the thought was that there would be more coming, but they didn't really know what that camp was.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

They didn't know mm-hmm.

Who was there.

Okay.

Because there was, I mean, you know, the commanders of commanders of that unit that we don't speak of.

Right.

And other people were there bid so hitters, I'm like, you chose the wrong, maybe they do.

Well, they may have known that was the, I don't know that anybody in the right might would.

They don't wanna go up against that.

That's true.

That's true.

Possibly.

But I don't think that, I don't, I don't know if they get, they may have known that.

I think it was so indescript and chill and like anytime anybody was out of any of those buildings, for the most part outta uniform, you know?

Yeah.

Just kind of, you know, you knew you would know, or, or it's just cammies.

Mm-hmm.

With a brown t-shirt or something clean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just like it, it looked more like a.

To me it, it looked like this is a, this is a comms, you know, big communication center, which also is strategic, but not necessarily have that kind of brass there.

You know, the, uh, the, uh, um, oh, what is that?

What's it, what's the, what's it called underground?

The skiff.

Oh yeah, the skiff.

You're in the skiff.

You're just like, dang.

Who's, who is down here killing bitches, right?

Yeah, exactly.

I rock wandering the halls.

Exactly.

Um, but anyway, yeah, so that last, uh, that last deployment, so I'm doing that.

This is like, we we're, I'm, I'm at Camp Morehead and this mission in that, in that valley, it's maybe a week or two before I'm flying back, because the deal that was also made was that, um, they would fly me back in time for training camp.

You gotta get back for practice.

Right?

Exactly.

Like two days, God training camp starts and all this is crazy.

This is not the United States military.

This is so cool.

This is, it was a good deal.

It didn't hurt.

I will say it did not hurt.

That Admiral McCraven went to Texas.

Yeah.

And was at the time the SoCal Commander.

Mm-hmm.

So he came to a game when I was playing and I'd already, I was already in the guard, but it, as before I'd gone to Afghanistan those two times, he came to a game in the locker room.

We won, thank God.

Afterwards he spoke to the team before and, uh, before the game.

And he was just like, what are you up to?

What do you, what are you doing this summer?

And I was like, well, you know, I would like what I would, what this is what I would like to do, sir, you know, but I'm down for whatever, like parade rest as a college student, you know?

And, uh, and so anyway, he, he was just like, you know, well, you know, we want you to keep playing football.

He's like, it's good for, and he said it was, and I, I appreciate this without me being much of a poster child.

He is like, it is good for sure for the guard.

Mm-hmm.

And it's good for, it is cool to show that like, you can do these things too.

Yeah.

And still, and it's true.

Like you can do a lot of things and still serve in the guard.

Yeah.

And, uh.

So that was, you know, that was sort of the That's awesome.

Sort of the deal, guys.

Were up 27, 10 AJ's got it.

Just, I've got the score up.

You guys are good.

27, 10 with a minute.

20 left.

You're good, man.

That's not very impressive at all.

You guys can still snatch, uh, defeat from the jaws of victory.

Don't say 2, 7, 10.

Oh man.

This gonna be a rough No, you got it.

You got it.

You got, we got this week.

It's gonna be a rough season.

That's all I'm hearing.

So you guys have Sam Houston coming up and then Texas We should be okay there.

Sorry.

Excuse me.

But then it's gonna, we got the gauntlet after that.

Mm-hmm.

It's like Florida now.

Florida's terrible.

That's my team.

Georgia.

They're terrible this year.

I don't know.

You're, they lost a USF.

Let's get back to this.

Okay.

Sorry story.

Sorry, sorry.

Back to our regularly scheduled Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Program here.

So, so yes.

We go on, we go out on this deal and it's like, yeah, A week or two before my flight back.

Um, so it's literally the last mission I went on and, um, yeah, we go out, uh, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm on the, uh.

I'm on the two 40 on the back of one of the trucks.

I can't remember what, um, I don't remember if it was a, one of our, it had to be one of our Humvees, or it could have been one of the rgs, they had those RG 30 threes.

Mm-hmm.

And like the, like the Mat vs.

Or whatever they call 'em later on, I can't remember because we had a mix of vehicles for these things, you know, and, and we were also obviously going out with the, uh, Afghan commandos and all that.

But anyway, we were pulling in, um, as we're like coming into the village and we could see leading up to it, we were all on comms listening, and they had at least 30 or something, um, military age males that were amassing in this building.

So they knew we were coming.

They've got tipped off and we're driving.

So we're not, um, you know, we had some flying missions before.

This was not one of those places they wanted to fly into.

Mm-hmm.

And there had been reports for.

A long time that like a lot of HTS were sort of betting down there because it was kind of a safe haven.

People weren't going up there.

It's hard to get to.

Um, and it's not very strategic, uh, for us, you know?

And so anyway, we pull in, we we're immediately, we're getting mortar and like, you know, all this stuff's going on.

And daytime.

Daytime.

Yeah.

Middle of the day.

Geez.

Middle of the day.

Yeah, I know.

Crazy.

And I'm on the, uh, uh, or initially I'm in the, one of the vehicles and I think our, um, one of our TURPs was on the two 40.

I know you're not supposed to do that stuff, but we always too.

I mean, he was a good turp.

It was.

He was, he actually moved, him and his buddy ended up moving to Fremont, which is a Afghan neighborhood Awesome.

In the Bay.

And, uh, so I had them over for dinner.

Oh, no way.

Uh, a couple years later.

Yeah.

But, um, but anyway, we, yeah, so everything's, you know, gunfight breaks out and.

I go back there to get on that gun.

'cause we actually don't want him laying down suppressive fire while our troops are moving.

Right, sure.

He's got other things to do as well.

Yeah, exactly.

He's got other things to do as well, but also like, that's not his specialty.

And we, yeah, it is really just for the drive out there.

'cause I was an echo, I was a comms guy too, and we were having comms issues that day.

So I was in the vehicle with the team leader, making sure he is talking to the, you know, close air support and everything like that.

And, um, anyway, so then that's all going on.

And then some of our, our guys dismount with their, with the Afghan, uh, commandos and they're trying to, you know, uh, clear the area and get into that, eventually get to that building.

And, uh, anyway, the, their Afghan commander, the captain is walking between vehicles trying to like command and control a bit, but they don't have the same communication capabilities that we have.

It's a very difficult job.

And he was just sort of.

In the open.

And he, there was a, I, I knew there was a sniper because I could see from the turret or the, uh, uh, what do you call it?

Is that called a turret in like, basically like in a, in a moss on a building.

Oh yeah.

You know what I'm about Like a Minette.

Yeah.

Minette.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Not a turret, like a Minette.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I could see sniper fire.

Mm-hmm.

Because it was just like a muzzle flash and like one, you know, ever so often.

Mm-hmm.

And then I, once in a while, I could hear it either snap over my head or like hit the vehicle or something like that.

And, um, he hit the captain, like right in the neck.

It was a great shot.

It was not close.

Um, it was very far away.

Um, but he hit him in the neck and so he dropped and our, our team sergeant and, uh, one of our other Kamo guys, like dragged him behind the Humvee that I was laying down suppressive fire from, and tried to treat him, unfortunately, lost his life.

And, uh, and then.

And then they, they, uh, I mean it was overall, except for that like mission success, it ended with at the a tens coming in and just finishing off anything that was left.

But all those people that had masks, you know, in this building and were sort of waiting for us were, you know, eliminated essentially.

And, uh, yeah.

And like a week later I'm flying back to Austin to play football.

Oh, that's, it was, it was weird.

So I was speaking with a gentleman yesterday who was a Marine Special Operations and, and, um, and he had to call in the, uh, air Force, a tens.

Can you describe, uh, a tens?

Uh, for me, it's one of my favorite airplanes in the entire, you know, arsenal that we have.

Can you describe what that was like?

I.

It is like they're, they're terrifying.

Even though you're on, they're on your team, you know what I mean?

Like, because I mean, they're moving fast and those guns, you know, it's, the sound is like this, wha you know, it doesn't sound like gunfire, but that the rate of speed that those things are firing and the, the amount of damage they do in one sweep mm-hmm.

Is crazy.

Like crazy.

You know?

I mean, they just will an entire blocks Yeah.

Can be gone.

You know what I mean?

Um, and uh, and but, so it's, it's also like a good feeling knowing that you have that, uh, uh, on your team.

You know what I mean?

But it's like, it's crazy.

It, it was like, that was the closest I'd ever been to him.

I'd, I'd, I'd had them.

I've seen them before and I'd had, you know, been involved in stuff where I was much further away, but this was.

I know it was further than this, but it felt like it was a hundred yards.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It felt like it was right there, you know, like a football field away.

And they're ripping Yes.

Depleted uranium rounds from low.

Exactly.

Everything's exploding.

It is crazy.

It is an in, it's an intense feeling.

It is.

And I felt the elation, when we have aerial ordinance come over, it was almost like vindication, because sometimes I think we get stuck, you know?

Especially with there's a sniper or something like that.

Right.

And then you have this like hand of God come down and just decimate anything in front of you.

Yeah, exactly.

Did you find anything like that?

So the only thing that I can ever equate, and, and I'm doing both a disservice by trying to create this, this metaphor, but the only thing I could ever equate is watching like, I dunno, like a Brian Lacer, right.

You know, as like an A 10.

Right.

You know, like coming down and just nailing so.

Right.

You know, like that's what it just feels like is like this big brother that kind of comes in.

Uh, did you ever experience anything like that, um, in sports, like that kind of feeling when you, I know that, 'cause I want to get into your sports, uh, you know, in, in your, your absolutely incredible journey through that.

Did you ever experience anything that was specifically like an a 10 coming in over your shoulder and blasting somebody?

Oh man.

I mean, I got blasted, not certainly not a 10 level, but I, I definitely got, uh, rocked a few times.

I'm not the biggest guy in the world and, you know, um, the college athletes are still pretty good athletes and Yeah.

You know, some big dudes, um, no, definitely different.

I mean.

Nah, nothing like that.

I mean, uh, that's a good question.

Hey, what, what did you, I don't think so.

Like, you come back from that deployment, it's hard to compare.

What do you tell these guys?

Like, I know they're your teammates at Texas, right?

And that is a premier program.

Yeah.

Like the best athletes.

Yeah.

Second only to USC apparently.

What do you like?

They like, Hey, what'd you do this summer, man?

You're like, oh, I was just in this gunfight.

Yeah, yeah.

Can they relate?

And I didn't really tell 'em much about that, you know?

Uh, I didn't talk about, I didn't talk much about it at all for, you know, and not because it was like bothered me.

I just was, yeah.

I don't know.

I just didn't really talk much about it.

Um, but also I, yeah, I, I, I felt like they wouldn't understand, you know, they're also, they are young guys and they're, um, yeah, that's true.

You know, it's just a different.

I don't want them to be like, you know, how many people you kill kind of questions and things like that because you, you know, that's coming at some point.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

So I just kind of left it, you know, some of them knew where I was, um, and some of them didn't, man.

Um, so that was, yeah, that was interesting.

Like I've seen the pictures of you carrying the flag out.

Oh yeah.

Like America, right.

Just like awesome.

Yeah.

Which is very cool.

Did the coaches recognize that?

Oh yeah.

Service, and I'll say like, everybody on the team knew I was the military.

Okay.

And they knew what unit I was in, and they definitely were by and large, very respectful and like, you know, I'm sure you know, a lot of them being Texas, a lot of 'em had, you know, parents that served a lot of them.

Oh, that's cool.

You know, so that was really common.

Um, and so, yeah, it was, uh, you know, it was always just weird and, and it wasn't just the football locker room, it was just college, you know, going to class.

And like, I'm just like, ah.

Did you go through any, I'm, I'm appreciative for being here, but I'm also just like.

The stuff that you kids are like worried about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You don't even know how Wrapped Got it.

Explaining about, and like, I'm just like, ugh.

That was exactly my question is did you face any internal conflict with, so I mean your last like kinetic engagement a week from being back in the campus, that, that's pretty crazy.

Back into the, you know, the, the grind, I'm assuming this was probably your senior year going back into it.

It was before my, yeah.

Yes.

My senior year playing football.

Exactly.

I mean, what was that transition like?

Did you have a transition, did the military support with transition?

Because watching somebody get shot in, in the neck and then die and then a week later, you know, having a, you know, a liberal arts class or whatever it was, right.

Is is, I can only imagine the juxta juxtaposition between the two.

Yeah.

And how did, it was also like, I mean, I lived off campus, you know, the dorms, I was too old.

Yeah.

It would just been weird.

But, but in, during training camp that year, um, we stayed in the dorms during training camp because we'd.

You know, we had new, new coach coming in and we were trying to, they were trying to make some changes and so that was my first time staying in the dorms.

So I went from, you know, the barracks, uh, in Afghanistan to this dorm situation.

And it was, you know, this is August, so it's before most of the students are back.

It was in a co-ed dorm or anything like that.

But it was just, it was definitely strange, you know, I mean this like bunk bed with this 19-year-old kid, you know, that's, and uh, yeah.

And it's like, I just remember everything is so clean and green and, you know, it's a very, it was a very strange thing and I just, you know, yeah.

Going back to the football field after that, it's not that it's petty, but.

It was kind of, I guess, yeah, it was a little, it's just a little lower.

Lower stakes maybe.

Yeah, lower stakes.

I mean, like, you still don't wanna let player people down and like, it matters to these people, Texas or you know, in, in Texas, football is crazy.

Mm-hmm.

Obviously.

Right.

And I do love sports and I, it does bring people together.

I think there's a lot of good, but the things that we complain about, I mean, I'm doing it right now as I'm complaining about the performance on the field of our football team, but like, you know what I'm saying?

For sure.

Yeah.

And so, like expectations.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's whatever your reality is.

And that's just their reality is like the biggest thing they're involved in is playing football.

And so it does matter, you know, and coaches are trying to keep their jobs and, you know, they, I don't know.

But I, I think the perspective shift is huge.

And, and it's, it's been a challenge I think for a lot of veterans.

Yeah.

To be able to have that perspective shift.

I've dealt with a lot of guys and gals that feel.

Um, you know, almost as if people like owe them something, you know?

Oh, yeah.

And you're like, it's a lot of entitlement issues.

Yeah.

Like, Hey man, you signed up for it, man.

The recruiting station was open to everybody.

Uh, a few people signed up for it.

Totally.

But I don't think the American public owes you anything.

No.

Um, other than, you know, I think to, to live their own, you know, lives and it's just totally hard to have those conversations as well when Yeah.

You know, the biggest thing is, you know, the grocery list that night and people are stressing out over that.

Nate, can I ask you to just jump on this?

Like, a lot of this is possible because of veterans' help group, right?

Like they've Yep.

Kind of made a lot of this possible.

I understand you had used them, like can you just share some of what you went through with them?

So Yeah.

No mean's a great own transition's a great point.

I mean, I, I, I was lucky to have football to help me transition.

Right.

As far as back That's interesting.

Into the social world there or the whatever the reintegrate, I guess.

Yeah.

You know, to society.

Um, that certainly helped because I had a new purpose and a mission and like, it was generally fun and something, it was like a childhood dream.

I was kind of living out, you know, had that opportunity with the Seahawks and Pete Carroll, you know, so conflicted relationship with Pete Carroll as a 49 er fail.

Right.

But I definitely, it's something I did not do and did not handle.

And I was my, uh, going to the va, you know, and doing, doing that stuff because I, I'd been to the VA a couple times and I just was bad, bad.

It can be tough experiences and it's just like, you just go in there, everybody's depressed.

It's like a, I I, the one in LA anyway, at least at the time, I haven't been back to that one in a long time, but it was, the way I described it to people, I was like, it's like a cross between, uh, a homeless shelter and the DMV.

Mm-hmm.

Like, that's what it felt like.

And I'm like, that is, that is the most perfect description.

You know what I'm mean?

Sad.

But I was like, this is just, ugh, it's so depressing.

And it was like.

I just didn't, I was like, this is not worth it.

Like, I'm fine, you know, I'm fine.

Um, and this is right around w when I started, or maybe even a hair before I started having some of the issues, you know, things starting to hurt and like, yeah, what's this from?

What's that from?

Um, and I knew I needed to do it to do my, you know, do a disability claim, do all that stuff.

I knew it was smart to do because the issues probably aren't going to stop.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I didn't, uh, I didn't even know about, uh, veterans help group.

I didn't know about.

I didn't know that that kind of stuff was possible.

I kind of just thought you had to do it on your own.

Yeah, of course.

And eventually I got connected to somebody and she was very nice and she, she helped me through it.

But what I had to do was I essentially had to pay upfront a good amount of money for how much I had, which wasn't much.

To get second opinions to get checked out by other doctors outside of the va.

So because there was quite a bit of, um, there was people, there are people there that they use sometimes outside of the VA as well, that are contracted by them.

And I don't exactly know, but I would imagine if everything's okay with you, it looks better on them and maybe they'll continue to render services.

So it was, it's smart to kinda do that stuff on your own or at least have somebody that knows how to navigate the process advocating for you.

And I did not.

And so it took a very long time and it cost me a lot of money and eventually got done and then.

I meet Veterans Health Group afterwards.

So I'm glad that I ended up going through that.

But if I would've only known because of what the way that they operate is, there's no cost to the veteran upfront.

You know, like they, all they do is they work on this, this case, and they did take a percentage of back pay.

So they're not taking anything that you now rate moving forward.

It is yours, it is for the veteran.

Um, and so just like any, you know, uh, like a legal team should work if they're, you know, working in Sure working for you, and there's a case to be had, um, that's how they operate.

And it's, you know, it's just people that understand the legal process and understand the disability process and all the things that, and the VA process, which I still am baffled by.

I still don't understand how it works.

You know, it's very complicated.

So.

So definitely, um, I now advocate for Veterans Help Group because I've got to meet some of those people, and it was just something I didn't have access to at the time.

Um, and, and so I finished all of that.

For me, it took several years and I finished it during COVID.

COVID was one of those times where a lot of things were shut down.

I'm like, all right, what do I need to take care of?

It's like a reset.

Yeah.

For me.

And that was one of those things.

And I, you know, I, I invested more money into it, but it ended up, you know, it ended up finally working out.

I just, it was five years and, and expensive.

So, um, if only, if, if only, yeah, I had, I had, I had met the, the veterans help group folks, but, uh, yeah, I definitely am a big advocate for what they're doing now because it's important.

And I, I know we're running out of time, but I you, you have several initiatives running Nate.

Like you've got Mission six Zero, you've got, and you know.

Please tell us which ones we should really kind of dive into.

But yeah, I love this idea of bringing the vets together with players like you're one of the few who's bridged both of those Yeah.

Audiences or those communities.

Yeah.

I mean, almost every organization I'm involved in has that connection, the veterans and the players, you know, at some level.

So MVP, um, which I co-founded, uh, stands for Merging Vets and Players, and it's a nonprofit.

We bring together vets and athletes and help them with that transition, help them, um, with things like, you know, look, we are not, uh, we don't do what Veterans Help Group does, but we can help steer people in that direction so they get the right resources that they need.

Um, and, uh, but really what MVP does is we meet up in the gym in our, we have chapters all over the country and we're actually gonna open one in San Diego soon as well.

But we're, we started in la we're in Vegas, Chicago, Atlanta, New York, Seattle, Dallas, Phoenix.

Um, soon to be dc, soon to be Austin.

Awesome.

We've already started working there.

Yeah.

We, we had an event in Columbus recently.

Jacksonville's one of our newer chapters.

Um, so we're continuing, continuing to grow and build and we meet up in the gym every week and we train for about 45 minutes.

And it's something that's challenging, but, but anybody can, can kind of do no matter what your physical condition and shape is, and we'll adjust it, um, to make sure that that can happen.

And then we huddle up afterwards on the, whether it's a wrestling mat or the, the, you know, the floor, whatever.

Um, and it's just peer-to-peer open forum, air out your stuff if you got stuff you need to talk about or let off your chest or something you're struggling with or you know, things you need help with, ideas, thoughts, uh, and open to athletes as well.

Um, because those two professions very similar, like of course the battlefield and the ball field are totally different.

We would never compare war to sports, but the locker room's super similar.

The identity with the uniform.

Mm.

Competing at an elite, elite level.

Mm-hmm.

Like sacrifice, different kind of sacrifice.

But you have to make a lot of sacrifice to, to become a professional athlete, no matter how talented you are.

And then when you, you know, those careers typically end in your thirties, you know, at least the level you want it to be at.

Maybe you can keep serving or, and the analogy I often make is like, people are like, well, you can be in the military for a lot longer.

I'm like, and, and, and no one's cutting you.

I'm like, yeah, but you usually now you have to go teach in the schoolhouse.

Mm-hmm.

So you're not, you're not coaching, you know, or you're Now that's a great point.

You're now on, you're in the front office now, you're not on the field.

Yeah.

You're not on the field, you know?

Yeah.

Interesting.

So it's like that's, that's it is similar in that way.

And, and, and the, the athletes do can struggle more with it, you know, and like an injury or a, uh, not that veterans don't get injured, but an injury or, you know.

The next guy that is just a little bit cheaper and maybe a hair faster than you taking your job, and all of a sudden it's over.

We don't have that as much in the military, but of course it can end in an instance, you know, like a hundred percent.

And, and all of a sudden it's like you weren't thinking about plan B, you weren't planning for the future because you gotta put all your energy into like plan A, you know, and staying on top of your game.

And so I was speaking with a good friend of mine, he's with Seal Team five.

Uh, I was speaking with him on the way down today and I was describing, uh, your, your nonprofit and the idea, like I struggled.

I retired a couple of years ago and I was, you know, I stopped being a force recon Marine.

Yeah.

Uh, probably, you know, now 10 years ago.

And then I retired.

Like who I spent my entire adult life more time alive as a Marine than I was not a Marine.

Right?

And then all of a, a sudden it was done.

And where do you find your purpose?

Where do you find who you are?

Why do you get up in the morning?

Why do you still go to the gym?

And I completely, uh, resonate with the idea of the same thing as an athlete, right?

We've seen a number of athletes that have struggled, who have worked towards their entire, you know, life towards something, right?

And all of a sudden it sunsets on them, like you said, very early.

Yeah.

I was 39 when I retired, and, and you're like, well, what's the next chapter?

Well, I haven't been planning for the next chapter because all I spent my entire life was trying to be as good as professional, as survivable as this thing.

Yeah.

And then the music just stops.

Right.

Um, and so I, I commend you for that.

Like, as you're describing it, you're like, Hey, opening up in San Diego, I live in Carlsbad.

That's an easy drive for me.

I know.

I feel like you got someone I will come down.

We've already been talking about gym, maybe a gym and Scripps Ranch, which is even closer, you know?

And so easy.

Um, but there's some great, and there's a lot of athletes out here, a lot of veterans.

John Carney's a good buddy.

Mm-hmm.

He's up in that same area as you are and long time, uh, NFL kicker and big supporter of the, the veteran community and military.

But anyway, and there's comradery through suffering, right?

Oh, right.

Like that's, that's so good.

That's what that 45 minutes in the gym is meant to do.

It's not supposed to be that bad.

Like it is a little bit, bit of, a little bit mini gig pit, you know?

Yeah.

Minus the sugar cookie.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, it's, uh, all of those things and, and you just said it, I mean, when you said that it's a crazy thing for most people to hear, but it's like, I retired at 39.

Yeah.

Because that's so, so young.

That is, you know what I mean, like life expectancy.

That's not even half your life if you're healthy person.

And what do you do with act two?

And it's a huge scary thing.

Totally.

Uh, in front of you.

Exactly.

Victor, I know we gotta get outta here.

I'm gonna hit you with just a couple rapid fire questions.

Okay.

Do it, do it.

First one is, uh, is there anything you carried with you when you were downrange that somebody had given you Oh yeah.

Meant something to you.

You just needed to have it.

So my, um.

My grandfather, my mom's father, who, the one that I didn't get to know passed when I was three months old or whatever.

Um, he had a four-leaf clover that he carried with him on his deployments.

He was a navigator, and he had an incident where they, uh, you know, something happened, they weren't shot down, but they had a mechanical failure and they had to basically perform a crash landing, um, in Europe.

Uh, he, so he flew the hump and I believe this was like in India or something, like over there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What, so like, yeah, so they, they, you know, that happened, survived it, and he, but he, and he, there was an article about it in like the local paper in, in, you know, back in Denver or whatever.

And, uh, about this four leaf clover that he had and my aunt, um, after my, uh, grandmother had passed away, they were going through the house and, you know, getting ready to, you know, sell it and all that, and they're going through all this stuff and she found this old article in this four-leaf clover.

And I had just, uh, I had just joined the military, uh, not long before, so before even my first deploy.

Um, I got to bring that.

Awesome.

So brought, I had the for clover on my person.

Yes.

Would you, where, where would you wear it?

Oh yeah, it was in my bdu like in Yeah.

In your chest pocket.

And was it in like a case or something?

It had a little, it was in a little like, uh, like flattened, like a little plastic baggy kind of thing.

And then with, with the article around it.

And then I protected it, you know, I had some, like a envelope and some, you know, you still got it?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I still got it.

That's super.

Yeah.

Not on me right now, but I do still on that.

So that was the thing.

Alright.

Yeah.

Um, I was also a long snapper in college.

Oh, nice.

I played at Georgetown, so I didn't play at Texas.

Hey, did you do, uh, that's a field goals and punts a smart school.

Yes.

Right.

I love it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Right.

You want get, so my question is a little bit more, um, uh, we're gonna edit this section out here.

I'll give you a chance of two questions.

Either one of 'em you can kind of go with.

Okay.

Um, I, my own personal piece is that I think that a lot of young men, uh, and young women are looking for examples of, of who to be like, uh, in, in their life.

W there is nobody on the face of the earth that could ever say that you are not a man, that you have not defined yourself as masculine, that you have not gone done all of the things that every little boy wishes they could have done.

What would you describe are the tenets of masculinity in your own words?

Oh man, that's a great question.

Uh, I, I think, uh, I mean, one that really sticks out to me and doesn't sound masculine in the general sense of the word, of course, of course, is, uh, is vulnerability though.

And I don't just mean be in touch with your feelings, I just mean be be brutally honest, you know, with yourself and with other people about where you're at.

And if things aren't going so great, it is a strong thing, um, to let go of that ego and ask for help, you know, and reach out to somebody.

Um, because how.

Manly does it feel when you're on the other side of that, you know, and, and somebody needs your help and they call on you.

Especially if it's something you care about, like you're there.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

In an instant.

So I think that's a big one.

You know, just that, just, just genuine, uh, uh, vulnerability.

And I think that's a great leadership trait too, when I've had leaders Totally agree.

Yeah.

That have just been like, Hey, you know, when they take, take the responsibility, even if it's not your fault and everybody knows it.

Yep.

And you just do that, man, I wanna follow you.

I'll follow you anywhere.

Um, and I love that.

But when they, but when they did make a mistake and it was their fault, you know, owning that, um, with just the, in the most genuine, honest, and clear way and, you know, never, never, uh, putting it on anybody else.

Mm-hmm.

And always deflecting credit and all that stuff.

I love that.

I love, I love, uh, experiencing that.

And I think, yeah, vulnerable leaders that are just honest with the, this is where we're at.

I'm not sugarcoating it, you know, um, but this is where I think we can go and this is how I think we can do it.

I think that's a very masculine, uh, trait.

Uh, no notes.

That was right.

That was fantastic.

I really appreciate that.

Thank you.

Um, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with this is great.

With this is super fun, man.

Yeah.

Very fun.

Yeah.

This is, uh, I honestly, I really appreciate what you're doing.

Again, you are being vulnerable, right?

You're putting yourself out into a number of spaces and, and talking about your experience and then also this idea of service and drawing people back together.

Uh, I think we need a lot more of that in this world.

And anything that we can do to help uplift you and put you in the, yeah.

In a place where you can microphone that to the rest of the world, uh, uh, we will, we will be your advocate.

Actually.

How do people find you online, Nate?

Oh, yeah.

Um, well, and and your program.

Yeah.

Vets and players.org for merging vets and players.

Um, also part of, uh, uh, water Boys, A Clean water project.

Yeah, I saw that.

Brought me back to Africa, which is really cool.

So.

We take groups of, uh, veterans and, and athletes up and climb Mount Kilimanjaro every year and raise money for clean water wells.

It's really, really cool program.

So that's water boys.org, uh, slash Kili, KILI for that program.

Um, and yeah, on social media, uh, at Nate Boyer, 37 and used to have a website, and I do not anymore.

The last one I'll say is, uh, I will a quick shout out to Eight Primal.

It's a a meat company.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We started out, we saw that in Texas.

Yeah.

So check out eight primal.com.

It's, uh, all the meat is born, bred, butchered, uh, packed and shipped from family farms in Texas.

So trying to keep it local and support the, uh, you know, the local, local farmers.

And, uh, make sure that, once again, that transparency.

Transparency and, uh, vulnerability.

Accountability as well.

And accountability.

Yeah.

Thanks so much, Nate.

This is a blast.

Thank you guys.

Appreci so much.

Yeah, my honor.

Thank you.

Alright, thanks Victor for letting us roll over here.

No problem.

Natalie's gonna kill.

I'm sorry man.

No, you're good.

You're good.

Hey, they won.