Emily Cave Boit (00:00):

Hi guys. Welcome back to You Are More with Emily Cave Boit. We are episode 16. I am very excited for today's special guest, Christine, who is a licensed therapist and social worker as well as many other of her amazing credentials regarding grief or infertility and so much more. We met through her son Patrick Droney. And yeah, I can't wait to tell you guys more about her story and for her to answer some of the questions that you guys sent in on my Instagram story. So welcome Christine to the show. So excited to have you.

(00:54):

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Super excited to have you. We met in the most unique way five years ago after Colby passed away, and it's just been amazing getting to kind of communicate virtually and you've just been an amazing support from day one when I didn't even realize it before I had met you. So a little bit of the backstory, how we met my friend McKenna had sent me the beautiful song Grief that is written by your son Patrick Droney, and it's called Glitter and it's all about grief and I feel like he does an amazing job with the lyrics describing the journey with grief and through life. And so I had posted it on my socials somehow me and Patrick Droney got connected through there. I think I tagged him and we got talking and then you got a phone call on your end, which you can tell the story a little bit.

Christine Droney (01:54):

Yeah, so thank you for having me on today. Of course. It's really kind of full circle, Emily. So I got tagged in because Patrick Droney called and he said, mom, do you have that bracelet with the cross on it? And I said, I do. He said, can you go get it, take a picture of it? And I said, why? He said, just go do it. And I did. And he said, oh my gosh. He's like, I'll call you back. And then I think he sent you the picture and then he called me and he couldn't believe that you and I had kind of met virtually me as I would think, just as somebody that was trying to support you in

(02:30):

Your

(02:31):

Journey and trying to support what you were doing in memory of Colby and just trying to be a human. And it was

Emily Cave Boit (02:40):

Ironic for sure. So for those of you that don't know, when Colby passed away, we were selling these crosses for caver bracelets and that is the bracelet we are wearing right now that we are currently talking about. So yeah, full circle, kind of beautiful, heartbreaking moment. Like I said, I listened to that song, glitter. I listened to it earlier today. I feel like it describes grief so well. And speaking of grief and kind of mental health, you also are a licensed therapist. So kind of wanted to talk about your journey a little bit, which got you to therapy and decided to make this your career, why it was so important to you. And then I did reach out to, or I had posted a q and a to my followers just with some questions kind of and for you to answer regarding some of them are infertility, some of them are grief. But yeah, just wanted to give people that opportunity to hear some answers and get some support through this podcast.

Christine Droney (03:47):

Let's tell you a little bit about me professionally. So I am a licensed clinical social worker, and I started out in nursing and I saw a real kind of vacancy for psychosocial support for anyone with chronic illness. It was like, here's your medicine, here's your treatment. But there's a huge piece of it in terms of psychosocial support. What do I do? How do I support a caregiver? How do I support a child, whatever. So I went back to school as a second career. I started out in nursing and I went back to school and obtained a master's degree in social work and thousands of hours of training. And then quite frankly what happened was I would say I'm a reluctant expert. If I wouldn't have had some things in my own life, I probably would never have been a therapist. I might've been an interior designer. And when I say expert, I don't mean that I know everything, it's just that you have become a reluctant expert,

(04:53):

Right? And what we call a dual process model of loss to reorientation because I did not seek this. And so what happens is once you get into this field, I then found out all the things that I didn't know. I would have folks come to see me. I'm certified in something called deontology, which is an advanced study of death. It's through aec, which is the American Association of Death Education. And so what happened is I would see people come into my office and they would come in for infertility, they would come in for retirement. I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. So every single time I would see somebody, there was things that I didn't know. So I just kept training and training and training, which it really is a full circle life. I mean, if you live, you're going to hit things that are really hard.

(05:45):

So I have a ton of different credentials, but that does not make me good at what I do. It makes me competent to do it. I think what makes me do my job well is I feel my work is sacred. I feel very blessed to be invited into your story. I'm not your therapist, but just watching you obviously the folks that I work with. And I do just feel it's very sacred work. So I work in a very rich chronic illness and fertility, grief and loss, anything that's really hard, I tend to really hard stuff. So that's why I tend to, when you describe what I do, I'm just kind of all over the place in hard spaces.

Emily Cave Boit (06:32):

I mean, I wish you were my therapist. I feel like you just said that so beautifully. I think as you said, what I've really learned is through my own journey is you can't fault someone for not going through trauma, but everyone's going to go through trauma at some point in time and in the meantime until it's that person's time, unfortunately, there's a lot of obstacles that can get in the way or make you feel lonely, if that makes sense. You do feel isolated, even though so many people go through grief and so many people go through fity. Everyone's story is a little bit different. And I think that's something I've learned. You

Christine Droney (07:14):

Had an extra edge because you had a public death. You have a public death. It adds a whole nother component. And being a young widow, which I wish there was another word for that, it's very complex.

Emily Cave Boit (07:37):

I remember my therapist said to me, she said, I don't think there's ever going to be a case like yours in the world probably. And with COVID, which is a whole nother thing with COVID deaths still to this, I will never, and no matter how many times people say, I'll never forgive myself for Colby dying alone, and I know I need to because I tried everything that I could and I couldn't. It was the rules, but it's just this feeling of I wasn't there. And with that comes for anyone that lost a loved one during COVID and different type of understanding. I saw photos of him on FaceTime with tubes or wires, but I don't know what those tubes and wires meant or, so it's very confusing to try and kind of put the pieces together a little bit. I mean, five years later, I think I'm okay now, but I've been waiting to contact the hospital and get his medical records and actually go through what, because you heard when the doctors obviously told you, but I want to know down to everything. And I don't think I was ready at the beginning. I was just so angry. But I think, yeah, COVID death, public death, young widowhood I feel like is kind of rare in itself. I think the average age of a widow is like 54.

(09:13):

But yeah, it was definitely and still is a journey that is for sure. And I think that's one thing, Patrick Droney kind of says it in the song, glitter grief is kind of your whole life. It is so ingrained, and it can be, so you can have the smallest triggers or then obviously there's death anniversaries and birthdays and all that. But it's so intertwined, Colby's so intertwined in my every day and grief is so intertwined in my every day.

Christine Droney (09:43):

Well, don't forget. So Dr. Mary Francis O'Connor is, she's a researcher out of university Arizona. So she's written book two books, the grieving Brain and the Grieving Body. So we know Colby, the neurons in your brain, the dendrites at the end of your neurons, he will forever be wired

(10:02):

In your brain. So there will be songs, there will be places you go. It doesn't matter when it is, he's part of your neurobiology. So start to even learn. What's really empowering is when you're in the therapist's office and you get to say, I'm not going out of my mind. There's actual science behind this reason for this. And so during COVID the Sudden Death, you not being able to be there, there's a real disenfranchised piece to it as well for you. And COVID now is like whenever you hear through history books, whenever COVID, it'll take you right back

(10:44):

To

(10:45):

That space. So for you, you will have to decide when or if you want to revisit medical records and what

(10:55):

That

(10:56):

Do for you. Will it do anything? There's a nurse named Sonder Clark who started years ago, a program called No One Dies Alone,

(11:05):

Started a chapter in New Jersey when I lived there. And it was for obviously pre COVID, but it was for patients that were dying alone, either maybe a trauma patient, an elderly patient, and so the nurse or a volunteer sat with them. And so maybe you can think that or maybe you will see if you see the notes or you have the opportunity to speak to a nurse or someone that was there when COPE was dying or actively dying that we're there medical, you know what I mean? So it's really, really something to know that when a patient is actively dying alone, that medical staff, even during COVID, because they did a lot of pro bono counseling for medical providers and respiratory therapists, they were there with those patients. I don't know if that is comforting at all, but obviously you would like to be there.

Emily Cave Boit (12:07):

I will never forget the, I know I talk about it quite a bit, but the nurse, when he was in brain surgery on the Tuesday, I told him I squeeze his hand three times. He does it to me all the time. That's his way of saying I love you, whether it's car, grocery store, wherever. And she did tell me when I arrived to see his body, she was like, I was squeezing his hand three times for you, which is so beautiful. And I think also now being a little farther ahead of it, I think I'm grateful for those nurses. I think in the beginning I was just so angry. They were the ones that kept me from him. And I talked a little bit about that in my book. I remember the critical head of critical care when he called me, I was so mad. And I called him a year later on the anniversary of Colby's death, and I loved him a voicemail. And I was like, I just want to apologize for yelling at you because, so I feel for also doctors and nurses in that situation that work in critical care and ICUs and I can't imagine what they go through as well. And I feel like in the beginning I didn't see that as much, but now today I have an extra soft spot I guess for the critical care teams, they

Christine Droney (13:22):

Had their compassion for you and are further out. You have your compassion for them. And so it's a team effort. During COVID, it was respiratory, it was nursing, it was medicine, it was environmental services, it was everybody. And so I guess if there's anything to know that there was so much work being done to not have these patients die alone, even though it's no consolation to you, but it's something that's ingrained in medical providers and all of us. But you're extending compassion, they extended to you and you had every right to be angry. So to validate that,

Emily Cave Boit (14:02):

Yeah, I feel like that. I'm sure, as you know, grief comes in waves and there's many stages. And those stages, once you go through all the stages, it doesn't end. Those stages are constantly a merry-go-round for the rest of your life. I still go through anger, I still go through denial. I still go through acceptance. I go through all of that. It's not as easy as I'm sure you tell your patients. It's like check, check, check. Done. Never again.

Christine Droney (14:29):

There's a doctor, he's now retired, but his name is William Warden and he ran the Harvard Bereavement Center and he had what we call the tear model. And I love his model because it's the death if we're talking about Colby died and then the E tear is experiencing the pain of the loss. The A is like, I have accepted loss. This doesn't all happen at once. And then the R is renewal, restoration reorientation. But the interesting thing is we always go back to E, you will always experience the pain of the loss at some points in your life, even though you were happily married. Now, even though you are stepping forward into your life has grown around the grief, the grief is there, but you're building this life around it. So the beautiful piece is to just know it's normal, that at some point I'm always going to experience the pain of the loss because how could you not? Right? Exactly. Exactly. That's normal. There is no normal, right? But it is, you're going to experience the pain of the loss. And unless you have gone through a death and especially a death you have gone through, no one gets the right to judge you ever. Period.

Emily Cave Boit (15:52):

Yeah, I think, I mean that's actually one of the questions that I was going to ask you that one of my followers had message. So as a therapist and kind of working with your patients is how do you respond to people who say, I should get over a loved one's death?

Christine Droney (16:14):

Well, usually what we do is we forget that person that is in the room telling you what you should be doing, right? Because when someone says, you should do this, it's different than your, I listen to your mom and dad, so they wanting to love and nurture and take care of you was just so heartwarming. And you could hear the pain in their voices, but they're the ones that be like, you should eat, of course. But the people will tell you the shoulds, they should not. And you really just have to say to yourself or to them, did you really mean to say that or no response? Or remember to ask yourself the question, is my grief welcome here? Right? That's a big, big thing to think about is especially to quote a new griever, meaning that first 13 months you're going through a lot neurobiologically, your body's going through a lot, you're dealing with all the legal stuff, and I know you've talked about that book The Mess. So you have to think about, is my grief welcome here? Meaning this may be a really good friend to go and take a bike ride with, but is this a really good friend? Is my grief welcome in this friendship? And if this is not the friend to talk about your grief, then you don't. That is my grief welcome here. And you can even say to someone that's telling you what you should do, say, is my grief welcome? Am I okay to talk about it? Can you just listen?

(17:54):

So don't be afraid to say, is my grief welcome? What a great line. That's a great line to say to someone. And it's okay to say, can you just listen? I just need to talk.

Emily Cave Boit (18:08):

I feel like too, if I've learned anything, I'm team therapy all the way. I am the type of person that I like to have, how I should answer things or how I should. Just like that one sentence in your back pocket or that one comment in your back pocket. So in the moments, especially in such high emotional moments when people are judgmental of Colby or me still posting and talking about Colby, that it's my gut reaction to not get angry at them. Not, oh, Chester's, even getting feisty about this one. Chester is like, we don't like that. But yeah, so having that one line is actually such a great way to put it. Is my grief welcome here? Because sometimes in such heat of moments you're like, how do you not get it? Or what do you mean? So I think it's so healthy and important to have those one-liners, little tools.

Christine Droney (19:14):

And also don't forget this is all new for you. Like I said, you are a reluctant expert. You did not choose this. And what you are actually doing is continuing a universal conversation on grief literacy, and you are opening the doors to younger grievers that may be attracted to you because of your age and your story, and you're actually allowing people to talk about grief in a way that is comfortable through technology, through Instagram, through your postings, your book. So you have taken on a role that you didn't choose, and you actually continue the bond with Colby when you do this or it's continuing bond, you get to continue to educate people and have conversations and they're hard conversations, but they're necessary if we're going to be a grief literate society and we're going to support each other and say, Hey, is my grief welcome here? If it's not, I'm out right now. I mean, I'm going somewhere where it's welcome.

Emily Cave Boit (20:19):

Speaking of that, I know in particular, and this was another question that someone asked kind of regarding grief. I think people are uncomfortable with grief to be honest. And I think in the beginning mine was obviously a little bit different, but I've just felt this overwhelming amount of support. But I think with grief, people go through the steps and unless they're really in it with you, our close friends of family, I think people send the flowers or send the, I'm so sorry for your loss, and then they kind of go about their lives. And I understand that I was the exact same before losing Colby. I was naive to all of that. But one of the questions is, can you ask her why grief tends to push so many people away, friendships, et cetera. Do you think that is because people feel uncomfortable or do you think they kind of don't know how to handle it or they maybe naive like I was before Colby, that just kind go about their life? Well, think about what we call

Christine Droney (21:26):

Grief beliefs or your grief journey. So for me as a kid, I grew up in a war in Northern Ireland, so probably my first grief belief is when I didn't have a home and I was missing my little pink piano. So we had no home. It was bombed with a war going on. So for me, I associate my first grief loss as not having this little pink piano. So if you have not had death loss, pepper bereavement, a loss of a anything, if you have not had those experiences, you cannot relate. And it can be scary because if your husband could die, my husband could die. If this

(22:09):

Happened to you, it might be contagious. And that's why you are doing such important work, Emily, with these conversations, because the more comfortable we can be as humans, we can support one another more and have an understanding of what do you need? What should I do for a young griever? What should I do when someone loses a spouse? What happens when someone a child dies? We use the word dead death. It's important to, and even pet bereavement is your franchise. It's just a pet. So I think it really starts with what your exposure is to grief. Were your parents afraid to talk about it? Did your parents allow you to attend your grandparents' funerals? So it really goes back to your own history. And if you ask people what was your first experience with grief and loss? What are you grateful? And they may be like, what do you mean? What's my grief belief? But it does go back to family of origin, what happened to you, what you've experienced. And again, it's not contagious for my husband to die. You're not going to catch it, but I do need support. So you're really doing really important work. So just the language to put out there, what is your grief belief? That's really good, right? That's like a dinner conversation.

Emily Cave Boit (23:37):

That's a great dinner conversation. I would totally sit down at editor and be like, what? I feel like I'm

Christine Droney (23:45):

Great conversation because we need to talk about it.

Emily Cave Boit (23:48):

Yeah,

Christine Droney (23:49):

That's the bottom line.

Emily Cave Boit (23:51):

I couldn't agree more. And I think you nailed it on when people haven't gone through. That's what I try and say, you can't fault people for not going through trauma when I'm upset about something and I'm like, you can't fault it. It's not their fault when they don't understand it. But I think you nailed it with just because my husband died, it's not a contagious, that word contagious I think is very perfect to describe. I think maybe why people maybe feel uncomfortable trying to help or witness

Christine Droney (24:23):

A lot of people grief don't know what to do. So for you, it's like a light switch for you. All of a sudden the light switched and you had one life and you had another life, and what do you do for you? No, you're so young, you're newly married. This is not supposed to happen to you.

(24:43):

It's

(24:44):

Not supposed to happen to you. So it just is not, and it did. And so it's scary when you meet people and things happen to them and they don't know what to say. And most people say things that are really not helpful. It's like, or better get married again. Or you have Chester, it's great, but that's not helpful right now. It's also listen to your body. Who are the people that make me feel safe? Safety really, really a big thing. Just that I need to feel psychologically safe with people. That doesn't mean that there are people that are out to hurt you. It just means that there will be some people you feel safer with than others. And then you always have those people that just love to hate on people.

Emily Cave Boit (25:32):

Yeah, yeah. They're going to have them, so they're everywhere. No, I couldn't agree more with that. And I feel like I am learning that in the beginning I felt, I think I was a little bit more feisty. Don't get me wrong, I still can definitely be feisty. Well, that's the thing is I always say Colby's not here to protect himself. And when anyone makes any comment remotely to him, that is when sometimes I see red

(26:11):

Because

(26:11):

I am like, you do not get this. What a privilege it is for you to not understand this. But I have worked on, and I think too, probably being so public that just amplified so much more of the people that are just going to hate or be judgey or

Christine Droney (26:35):

Afraid of the haters because they will be stronger for the people that really relate and want to relate and want to connect with you. Because the haters have their own issues. They're not your issues. It's not your surface or monkey, whatever's going on with them.

Emily Cave Boit (26:51):

Yes.

Christine Droney (26:52):

So again, just think of it like you are doing such important work. We are really trying to be a grief literate society, a world, and you are doing really important work.

Emily Cave Boit (27:05):

Well, thank you. I am so proud of you. Thank you. I try my very best. But yeah, some days I feel like it. I feel like too, I think maybe because I was so young, I kind of look back and maybe now in particular as I have moved forward, there's certain things that are obviously still big triggers. I would be lying if I didn't say that Edmonton Oilers in the Stanley Cup

(27:40):

Is very triggering. I was talking to another widow about it being like, had he been a banker or had he been something that it wasn't so public and in the media you wouldn't see it all the time. It wouldn't be Bank of America winning the Best Bank Award, something like that. As weird as it is to say, I'm not saying if someone lost their husband that was a banker, that wouldn't be hard at all just for me. I think sometimes those reminders feel very heavy. And then obviously as moving forward with Colin, or even when he was at school at Wharton, that was a huge thing for me. And I remember kind of talking to him about it being like my school experience and my young twenties experiences was in this hockey bubble. I didn't have going out to random bars with classmates or anything. I was in a totally different, so in your later twenties, doing that all for the first time I think was new for me and not trying to navigate all of that. But yeah, I do look back and at times I'd be lying if I didn't say I am jealous of people that had a normal twenties.

(28:59):

But in saying that I wouldn't trade anything, I would do it all again because I got to be with Colby and be married to Colby and experience the amazing love that he gave me, and I still feel he gives me to this day. So I do it all again. But there's definitely times, as you said in the tear stage or in the groove stages that you go back to things and you're like, why me?

Christine Droney (29:27):

You go from loss to restoration. It's called oscillation. It's like, I don't know what lane to pick back and forth. And that's a model that is a grief model, and that is real life for you. It's like I'm in a ping pong match with myself. And so for you, you have to learn how to be you at this part of your life. And what you do though is you bring Colby with you. You constantly bring him with you. So he has meaning and you the bonds, he has a legacy. His life means something. His life means something in the work that you do. And I said, he'll always be with you. So he's in your limbic system, the neurobiology of you, and you have to learn how to be, you have a different life now, meaning you don't have a life, but you're still involved in the hockey community through your charitable organizations and just your friends and all of that, but you have both. You don't have to have one or the other. Remember, you can hold great sadness in this hand right now and great happiness at this, have to have an absolute, I must be sad, I must be happy. You can be whatever you want to be, and you can have a bunch of emotions at one time and hold them. And that's what is so wonderful about having a safe space for grief that it's welcome because you can have many emotions and you don't need to explain yourself.

Emily Cave Boit (31:04):

I feel like if I've learned anything, grief and joy can coexist.

Christine Droney (31:09):

A hundred percent.

Emily Cave Boit (31:10):

Yeah, you can be hopeful for future, but also feel

(31:13):

Sad about the past. As I say, the significance of both is a full life. So I definitely agree with that. But moving forward, another question was, and speaking with people, I actually, yesterday, someone had asked me a medical, the background of everything, and I was like, oh, it was a nurse. And I was like, oh, I have PTSD. My first husband had passed away. And I think something that's really important with PTSD and grief and anxiety is I feel like your intuition changes a little bit. And this person, this follower had asked also, how can I trust my intuition again after trauma when I always feel like something bad's going to happen, I feel, yeah, you're always kind of, especially I think obviously terminal and sudden death, both horrific talking with someone I was, I think you're so caught off guard that yeah, you're always like, well, what's going to happen next? And that trauma. So how would you recommend?

Christine Droney (32:20):

Well, remember, first of all, it's going to just be understanding that you've lost a sense of safety. Just knowing that I've lost a sense of safety. The rug's been pulled out of me under me, and I don't have a plan. And just being able to that I'm not in that unsafe space right now and I'm in a safe space now. You have to really think about safety, just psychological safety again, who I'm with, what I'm doing, and understand that it's going to take you time. You don't, again, you don't get over the death. You don't get through the death. You build your life around

(33:03):

The

(33:03):

Grief. Your life gets bigger, meaning you're adding onto it. And I think when you start to add into your life after someone has died or through a divorce or whatever that you go through, or people that are estranged from their children and they have to almost grieve the death of their children because their children aren't in their lives anymore. You wouldn't believe the things that people come to. But once you start to say, I have to start to build my life. So it's almost like neurophysical therapy, neuro pt, the more I can start to flex those muscles of trust in myself, trust in people, baby steps. It's not a quick fix. It's an evolution. It's not toxic positivity. It's not a book. It's really starting to maybe work with, I always say work with a really, if you're going to work with a therapist, work with a really qualified therapist, say, what are your credentials?

(34:01):

Where have you trained? And do you have rapport with that person? Just because they have trained doesn't mean they're a great therapist either. So it's going to take time for that person to trust themselves or just even feel like, when's the next shoe going to drop? And that's where really working with a really good healthcare provider. And so I'm a big proponent of mindfulness, and I don't just mean breathing. I mean really mindful check-ins, really getting in touch with your body. Yin yoga, which is very different, yoga practice and narrative therapy, which is what you did with the book. So look, it's really different over time, flexing those muscles and you have to work at it. This is work. This is not something that, it's not easy as for sure, I think. And it comes and goes with the ocean. That wave will knock you right over and then some hit you and you're like, I survived.

Emily Cave Boit (35:06):

Yeah, some days when you think the waves are going to take you down, you're like, oh, I can swim in this. And then other waves, when you think you can swim in it, you're drowning in it. You don't know. And I think, yeah, that's one thing that I've had to just realize when people, I think on certain days, two anniversaries and birthdays, people are always like, what do you want to do? And it is just what I feel that day, because I don't know what I'm going to feel that day. And I think accepting that it's okay not to know how you're going to feel or to be feeling all these different things is totally healthy and normal.

Christine Droney (35:41):

Remember, the anticipatory anxiety of the date is worse usually.

(35:46):

But also just knowing that I need to pace myself. I am on my own journey. I do not have to follow anyone, and I'm allowed to say no. And again, look for those people that your grief is welcome. That might be like, do you want to go for a walk? Or you know what? They say nothing and they bring you a meal or they say nothing and they send you something, right? They just know they need to do something and no questions asked. And people show up for you in different ways. So look for those people that bring you light, that show up, that kind of know what to do without you asking. But it takes time. You have to pace yourself, you that you've been on this for a long time now.

Emily Cave Boit (36:28):

I think looking back, that's one thing I would say maybe for it could be different. Obviously grief story is different. I don't think I really stepping to look back, and I talked about this with the therapist was I don't think I paced myself in the beginning. And I think a part of me, I tell people, I was like, I kind of wish, now I tell other young widows, maybe be a little bit more selfish in your early grief. Because I think, and what a blessing it was in so many ways for the NHL to create these memorial funds and the games and the documentaries and the media and the NHL bubble that had his name all over the city. But I think because day one there was cameras, or even from when he hadn't passed away yet, I think I carried this guilt maybe a little bit that I have to do every single interview that I have to do everything, what's going to keep him alive and that I have to.

(37:35):

So then I think when that slowed down, I think it really hit me a little bit more. So I always say to people, take time for you. I think maybe actually you sent it to me or someone sent it to me. It was on Instagram, and it's like when you go through loss, you're the middle and then the circle, and then the outer circle of people to worry about. And I think I was so worried about people three rings out of the circle where I needed to just process, if that makes sense. So I do try and recommend to people just be a little bit as weird as it say, be a little bit more selfish. Take care of yourself.

Christine Droney (38:17):

And that's different than How do I care for it's, and n Hhl had a lot of loss. I mean, Johnny and Maddie Goodrow, who South Jersey and Kristen Hayes and that particular, those athletes, the families, they've had a lot of loss. So there is some comradery in you all working together. And there is some real power in you saying, not that this has to work for you, but take your time. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to talk to anybody. You don't have to give an interview. Yeah, I think, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really pacing yourself. But we would all like a do over, right?

Emily Cave Boit (39:07):

Yeah. There's so many things. I'm like, what would I do differently

Christine Droney (39:11):

For you? Give yourself grace and say, you know what? I was good enough.

Emily Cave Boit (39:17):

Funny that you say that. I always say, I have this Twitter on right now, and it says, you are graced for this.

Christine Droney (39:22):

There you are. And that's where I'm saying this is your experience to be judged. Again, you are a wonderful, wonderful advocate for putting yourself out there. It's not easy. You could have just said, I'm done now

Emily Cave Boit (39:41):

Many times I wanted to be, I'm

Christine Droney (39:43):

Not going to be true. But you do what's good for you and you're doing really great work. Like I said, I call you a reluctant expert.

Emily Cave Boit (39:54):

Well, thank you. I am trying a few of the other questions. There's just two here that regard. You had mentioned, and I know on your Instagram too, talking about infertility, and we talked about that in the beginning, just navigating, obviously that is another type of grief and loss. One of the main things is best things to say or do for a long distance friend with infertility struggles. And then one person in particular did write infertility after losing your first husband and your new husband doesn't get it. And then another person just said, what do you do when you're struggling with infertility? And I think infertility is one of those things grief was not talked about. And now social media grief is definitely more openly talked about, and that is such a blessing. And I do think infertility is that way as too, I'm so proud of the people's stories who are out there sharing their infertility struggles and trying to get the word out there as well. So just what would you recommend for those questions?

Christine Droney (41:08):

Yeah, I think first of all, to remember if it's heterosexual couples, there is, it's both. People are usually grieving. I work with same sex heterosexual couples. I work with everybody. I work with single people that are single that would like young children. But you have to remember that it's a different kind of a grade because it's private. And people will say things like, oh, are you having children yet? Or they say the same kind of weird things you wish that they wouldn't say to begin with. And so when you're going through infertility and infertility, if you go through IVF, which is assisted reproductive therapy, it's protracted, it's long, it's medicated, it's cycles. I do a lot of work with a lot of physicians. So it's a very long process. And it's a private process. It's a painful process. I actually just testified in Pennsylvania about it with some physicians embryologists because of insurance coverage and things like that, because it's disenfranchised, right? Why should insurances have to pay for infertility? Well, they should. It's a diagnosis, and it's very expensive to go through infertility. So there's a psychological piece, meaning it can make you depressed, affect your mood. It create anxiety. There's a psychosocial piece. Women in particular tend to isolate. Maybe I don't want to go to a baby shower. Maybe I don't want to

(42:44):

In a group text with my friends and when they're saying, oh, I'm pregnant, or gender reveal, and then there's a psycho economic piece that costs related to it. So I think a lot of it there are, I don't love the Facebook groups. Most of the folks I see, they tell me they don't love them because it's like dwelling and dwelling and dwelling. So working with good therapists, but also finding the people that are safe. Again, that your grief is welcome and boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. You have to say what you're comfortable speaking about and what you're not comfortable speaking about. It's okay to say, Hey, you're on a need to know basis, or This is what I need from you. Or We're keeping this private right now, but looking for the safe people and looking for, there's some great, some good support groups online.

(43:42):

There's a group called resolve, which is R-E-S-L-O-V-E in the United States. They are more the advocacy side inside of reproductive medicine, of course gives you all the medical information. But I think looking at it, when I work with women in particular, we look at it almost like a process map. If you had a job and it said, here's the first thing you do, here's the second thing you do. So when we're going through IVF cycles, we kind of try to stay in the lane that we're in. We don't go ahead. We try to get that anticipatory. Also, we pull in work with an interdisciplinary team like nutritionist and try to make sure that the patient has some autonomy that they have a say. And don't be afraid to say, don't be afraid to question your doctor if you're going through a lot of cycles and things. Don't be afraid to say, Hey, maybe I need to talk to have an opinion from another physician. That sometimes what happens is women feel like I'm afraid to say something. I'm afraid to advocate for myself. So that advocacy piece also feels like you have more autonomy with the infertility piece, but there's great sadness with it. There's so many different emotions with the inability to conceive on your own. And then the great joy is when I get the computer pictures and somebody sends me, it's a journey, and I journey with them and a lot of wonderful therapists and embryologists and center's journey too. But you need to have your safe people.

(45:24):

And just because someone is your mother or your father, your best friend, they may not be the person that you can talk to about it and to make sure with your partner or your spouse or whoever you're in it together, that you don't isolate, right? You're not in the boxer's ring where everybody goes to their own corner. You have to come back to center. And so I love exchanging journals. That's one of the things that that's really

Emily Cave Boit (45:48):

Smart that

Christine Droney (45:49):

I do as well. So that you may not say what you're feeling, but your partner can read what you're feeling.

Emily Cave Boit (45:56):

I feel like that's a great idea. I also feel like different people I know for me in particular, if I'm ever upset, and I think this is maybe just my personality, but in writing the book and that I like writing things out compared to saying it. I think that's really helpful. So that journal idea is a great idea for people going through,

Christine Droney (46:17):

That's that narrative piece, that narrative therapy piece. Because to read your words is very different than to hear your words. And sometimes when we are also hurting, we can't hear what the other person is saying, and it is your journey. And we're seeing a higher rate of male factor in fertility. It's very interesting what's happening because in environment food, plastics, the science piece of it. So just really looking for that psychosocial support. But look for, if you're going to see a therapist, make sure it's someone like, I have a 10 months postmaster's degree in infertility counseling, because you need to know the language. You need to know what IVF is like. You need to know the medications. You can't sit with somebody without knowing exactly what the tasks look like. Because a lot of tasks, it's a lot of medications, it's shots, it's sonograms, it's all kinds of grams. It's, it's waiting for the phone call. It's transfers. It's very, very involved process. So it's assisted reproductive therapy. It's an art and a science. So just knowing that I have to assemble a team. So you as the patient, you need a psychosocial team. You need the support. So to make sure you have that supportive piece as well.

Emily Cave Boit (47:42):

I couldn't agree more. I think it's really important. This is my last kind of question for you, but what to say to people that, and it kind of ties in with you talking about finding your people and finding also a therapist that fits your needs or is a good click, right? Because I think that is so important because you could go to a therapist and that doesn't click. So my question for you would be, if someone was hesitant about therapy or reluctant, what would you say to them? Or if their loved one was hesitant, what would you kind of recommend or say?

Christine Droney (48:27):

So if somebody's coming into my office the first time, they're usually coming for something, and it's usually not what they think they're coming for. Lemme put it that way. It ends up to be, this is really why you're here. Also look at it as you're seeing, obviously, hopefully a licensed clinician that has an area of expertise, particularly with very hard things, but it's also a human conversation. So you want to be able to make sure that your therapist a, has the time to see you.

(49:02):

Is

(49:02):

It like book, book, book, back to back to back? How do you communicate with me out of session that you feel comfortable with? Just that I can have these conversations with you, and you always should leave with something. If you are going to therapy, you should leave with something, you should leave with your toolkit with some tools that, because the goal is right, that you don't need your therapist forever or that you see your therapist less often. Now, when we go through IVF, sometimes it's more protracted and death of a husband, death of a child, more protracted. But you should always have an expectation that I'm learning something. I'm getting something out of this. And it's okay to interview therapists. It's okay to say to therapists, I'm going to meet with you. I'm meeting with some other people. I want to see. I may not be for everyone. You want to build rapport, and you want somebody that's also going to remember, you

(50:09):

Want someone that remembers you that doesn't have to say, can you tell me what we're doing again? Or something. So if someone has not been to therapy before, look at it as just a human conversation between someone that has a scope of practice competency. And it really is just human with clinical people that obviously have a lot of training, but not to be afraid of it, not to be afraid to explore what's going on with yourself or family members or whatever is going on. But ask about training, especially with infertility. You can go to the American Society of Reproductive Medicine. They have mental health clinicians that are trained, specialized. If you're looking for that clinical competency, because if you go on different things, you see everyone's good at everything. You're like, how can everybody so good? You're like, wait, what? So there's wonderful, wonderful clinicians. I'm not good at some things, right? There's many things I'm not good at. So it's going to be who you feel safe with, who you build rapport with, and what their skillset is. And think about it again, as these are human conversations. Very human, very sacred, very important. And so my office, MySpace is sacred space. That's how I look at it. It's sacred. So I feel very honored that people trust me.

Emily Cave Boit (51:42):

Well, you're pretty amazing.

Christine Droney (51:44):

I thank you. And you're pretty amazing. Like I said, I as a therapist, thank you enough for what you do. I don't know if you follow Evermore for All, or I can send it to you or Joy Hearn. They're the kind of the legislative and the group that really trying to get grief literacy out there. And that's the piece that you're doing to really say, I am willing to do the hard work, even when it's hard, when it's painful, and I don't have to do every day meaning publicly, but I'm willing to put my story out there because you have, and you will make a difference for people.

Emily Cave Boit (52:25):

Well, thank you. Yeah.

Christine Droney (52:27):

Every day I hope to make Cole proud. So definitely trend. Well, you in his legacy, and remember, you didn't choose this, but it's where you are, and you're also building your life around it.

Emily Cave Boit (52:42):

Well, thank you. Yep.

Christine Droney (52:44):

So I couldn't be more proud of you. So

Emily Cave Boit (52:47):

That means a lot. Thank you. And thank you, Patrick Droney, for writing a great song.

Christine Droney (52:52):

It's right, it's sweet, and it's bitter. It's grief, and it's glitter. It's hot. It would explodes like a hand grenade. And it does.

Emily Cave Boit (52:59):

Yeah. It's

Christine Droney (53:00):

A wonderful metaphor.

Emily Cave Boit (53:03):

It's a beautiful, heartbreaking

Christine Droney (53:06):

Metaphor.

Emily Cave Boit (53:06):

For sure. That's

Christine Droney (53:07):

What it is.

Emily Cave Boit (53:09):

Well, thank you so much for coming

Christine Droney (53:11):

On. You're welcome. All right. I will see you on Instagram. I know, I know. I need to get back to Philly. I know. But thank you for having me on and inviting me into your world. I

Emily Cave Boit (53:22):

Appreciate it. Well, thank you so much.

Emily Page (53:41):

Thanks for listening to You Are More! Emily. Would love to hear from you. Reach out via the text link in the show notes and let her know what resonated. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. Don't forget to follow the podcast and leave a rating to help others find the show. Thanks for listening.