Ash Matthew, What is the one thing that you look after in your household?

Would you say it was dinner?

At one point?

It's a lie.

That's not anymore?

Is it really?

April's taken over?

What happened?

I just got lazy?

What did you put?

Garlic and everything?

Kids are like, fuck, this is garlicy?

Yeah?

What's that?

What's this garlic again?

Well, after today's guest, things are about to change.

You'll be putting that chef hat right back on because we've got wholesome Sarah.

Is that right?

She's the queen of keeping family meals real.

But don't be fooled by the name.

She wasn't always so wholesome, Is that right?

Let's just say she had a run in with the cops, a divvy van and a piece of lingerie that wasn't exactly paid for wholesome with a criminal record my kind of guess.

No, she's very wholesome.

We talk about the pressure of breastfeeding, the myth of the hands on dad, and why quality in parenting is way overdue.

So let's get into it.

Let's do it.

Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum.

I'm mad a jay.

I'm Ash and I'm Sarah, and this is a podcast all about parenting.

It is the good, it is the bad, and the relatable.

Now, so we have of late been accidentally putting out some advice.

If you hear Ash and myself give advice, we would love it if you would pull us up.

On it and tell us a shout out.

Sure, yeah, you are absolutely fine to give advice.

Loophole you need to.

Apologize type of advice.

But yeah, how cold my house is?

Oh?

I love the cold.

Great.

Yeah, we're sitting long sleeve your short.

I'm quite warm.

Ye, because I've just put got a bit excited.

I put the heat under the house and then I could I've done that.

It's now a bit of a cold snap.

But I forget you're from the Arctic.

Yes, totally when used to it and love the cold.

Winter is my season.

Cool it down in here, free.

We start off.

I guess a very important question, and that question is do you recall the most trouble you ever got in as a child.

I do know you asked this question because I listened to the.

Podcast, so I did have a bit of a pre pre prepared answer, and I thought, am I going to say this, I think I'm a psycho.

No.

I used to as a teenager shoplift and a lot, and I think I had like a problem, clearly, and it went over several years, and even some of my best mates that I used to they'd be there with me and they'd turn white cold and be like.

Oh no, Pounder, don't, don't again, and I'd do it.

And then I got caught towards Thank goodness, A girlfriend and I had gone into Target and we put all a whole lot of bras and undies under it.

So you go into the change rooms, you put them all under and I'm probably just giving young people, you know, and you put them all under your clothes in the change rooms and then you just walk out.

Anyway, we walked out, and this woman from Target walked out and I remember my friend at the time looking back with this smirk like, yes, we did it.

We got through and she sort.

Of tap tap tapped me on the shoulder and said can you please come upstairs to the Target office and I just was like because my parents were quite strict, so I was like, oh, I am dead.

So went down had to the police came to the shopping center, this is will sixteen year old girls like anyway, handcuffed us.

We had to walk through the center, put in the back of a Divvy van and go to Maulvene police station and my dad came and collected me and he was in a from work and the way I remember it like it was yesterday, the way he looked at me was just like, I am so shocked.

And he didn't talk and he just said.

We got in the car and he went, you wait till you get home and your mother's going to tell me.

And I was just like, and I was grounded for a term, no phone, no friends, nothing.

And when I was grunted, you weren't allowed to do it.

Wasn't like, oh you're grounded, but you know, stop the street, nothing for a term.

And then I never stole again.

So wow, can I ask I think the handcuffing thing is like part of the humiliation.

Yeah, yeah, if I really cough, i'd be doing that like walking toddles out totally.

I think it sends the message home.

And you were six At sixteen, I had a girlfriend that used to steal stuff too, and I was kind of into it.

Were you stealing for a particular reason.

I don't know.

I think it was.

I think it was that's real, and I think it was just I was I'm one of five kids, but I definitely just had the other four.

I'm not like they're boring as no they're not, but they just they're always like, God, you were just naughty.

You just liked it, you know.

I didn't get scared of although that kind of that situation did scare me a little bit, just with the cops and.

Well, if you were seventeen, isn't that seventeen, you're sixteen?

Seventeen if you're seventeen, isn't that They.

Said that I had a five year bond, which I actually found out later it was rubbish.

Mum and Dad just said that to scam me as well, so that I didn't kill it.

Yeah, if you if you steal again within five years, you can be well, I.

Don't know, sentence twenty fives alive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it was like you can be charged, and that freaked the hell out of me, so I just didn't do it again, which it worked.

I think seventeen in some states, it's like New South Wales was seventeen, the Queensland's eighteen I.

Don't want to talk about it anymore.

This is coming from a place of experience.

Yeah, a penny.

Memo, Melbourne.

We're riddled with it at the moment, and.

We've recently picked up stealing again.

Sir, you remind me a lot of my wife.

Okay, okay's to go on.

There's a lot of looks wise, but I mean, you've got you've got three kids, three girls.

Three girls.

We're on the cusp of having our third girl.

Laura is actually about to walk into the house any second, by the way, she's getting her hair done and can't split them, can't.

Well she's pregnant.

Well that's one big different, but both running your own business, it is such a tricky decision to make or when is the right time to have kids when you have your own business, because you don't have the luxury of just switching off from work.

Do you remember how you decided it was the right time to have kids.

Yeah, I feel like I was scared for quite a few years.

Like I didn't put off because I also felt within I'd been with my husband forever.

We were seventeen when we got together, and we didn't have our first till I just turned thirty, so it'd been a long time and I just felt ready.

But it was so scary thinking about work at the time out of catering company in Melbourne, and it was just sort of like, I'm the only one cooking in here.

There were no processes, there were not nothing.

So I sort of thought, you take me out and there's kind of to cook.

He's not too bad.

He's actually not too bad.

But again, like you know, your husband's not going to step into chef role at.

A He's like, he's like the basics at home.

He's pretty good people.

Although he did anyway, that's another story, very supportive and real.

Was really good in the end with all the big functions, but yeah, it was it was pretty petrifying.

But what I and it was such a long time ago now eight years, but I do remember once I did take the plunge and just do it, and I was like, just start trying for a baby and see what happens.

Got pregnant quite quickly, which was really.

Lucky, and then it was a bit like, well, you don't really have a choice.

So then ended up hiring my first sort of chef and different people within the business, and it turned out to be the best thing ever because it actually forced me out to work on the business and kind of put processes in place to run it without just me there all the time.

Yeah, to be really hard to, like, especially a growing business, to set the processes when you're in the trenches cooking, and yes you can't because you're all concentrating on that.

It'd be hard for you to switch off from that to finishing a big catering job and then to go home and then start to think about how are you.

Going to Definitely, so you just never had the time in saying that.

I never switched off.

So once when I had all three girls, Lil and Penno my first two, I was I still had the catering company.

I was still working straight away and how long like had the laptop in the hospital.

Wow, Yeah, I was wondering where you were going with them?

And then I'm like, I realized now, And I think that's a number of factors.

I think it is when you build something up yourself, you're a bit scared not to let go, but you just sort of you want to keep that control, I guess in a sense and know what's going on, and I want to.

Fully take yourself out.

But also I do think it's now that I'm a bit older, I had a little It was funny because my third I didn't have the catering company anymore.

It was destroyed during COVID.

But it was actually the one that I took the most time off with, which you think would be the other way around, but I think, yeah, Like I sort of had two weeks of nothing at the start, and I.

Was like, Wow, this is bliss like to.

Not have to think about you know, it was yeah.

Care the world.

I did not say that holiday.

Yeah, yeah, I mean you could focus on the one thing.

Flitting your mind over like, and you know, there's there's the anxiety of if you you know, you never know what your night it's going to look like with a newborn or even a young child.

So it sort of took out that for.

A small period of time because I was back working within two weeks.

But it did take out that, you know, when you go to bed at night being like, oh my god, I've got to do that big thing tomorrow, but I don't know how much sleep I'm going to get, and that's then going to you know, it's all gonna trickle onto your performance and how it's so, yeah, more.

Anxious you are as well, the harder it.

Is, exactly like, it's just still real.

I've got I've got six hours.

Funny, if I keep looking at the club.

It's just going to go down to love zero.

So yeah, I feel like I got used to it, and then I often now because we're done with babies, and I'm like, do I regret not putting more in place to kind of just give?

And do you know what?

I don't even have an answer to that yet because I'm like, I know me and I'm just that personality where I've loved working, I've loved having my own career.

I've loved there's pros and cons definitely, but it's I.

Don't know, I don't.

Maybe asked me in ten years and I might be like, oh I wish I had a little bit more.

But I also don't love the newborn stage.

Okay, I just was never.

I've got girlfriends that are like I love that stage, like it's just you know, all wrapped up, and I'm just like I was never.

I was like kind of and everyone's like, don't wish it away.

I'm like, oh, I can't.

I want to watch it away.

I wish they'd move out.

I mean, yeah, I'm conscious of the fact that you should never like want to rush through any phase of parenting because it once it's fucking gone, it's gone forever.

Shout out.

But I do recall someone holding a newborn and being like you could just just stare at them for hours, and I was like, what are.

You looking at?

What did you find the hardest thing about the newborn phase?

Ah, definitely breastfeeding with all three hated it, felt the pressure, wasn't good at it, just hated it.

It didn't come easy to me.

I'm going to be really stupid here.

Okay when you say you went good at it, what do you.

Mean by that, Well, my I got block ducks really easily.

So it just it didn't.

I always thought, and again this was, you know, nine years ago, before I had my first baby.

I was like, oh, I will be so like, I'll just be fine with breastfeeding.

I'm a chilled person.

It will just come naturally to me.

I know what I'm like, I don't get too anxious over things.

It'll be fine.

And it just was the total opposite.

And it was also lack of information that you know.

Now I've got three younger sisters, and so I'll sort of say to them, just do which I used to be like, oh, I don't need to know a thing, I'll just roll into it.

But I think with Lil, if I had have known more about breastfeeding, I got very sick.

So had mas statist three or four times, which is quite common.

But then the fourth it's pretty much it's an infection that either get it can get really bad, which for me it did, but it can either just be a local sort of infection that you get a really sore boob and it's inflamed and whatever.

You have antibiotics and it calms down, or you can get full fever and whatever.

But in my case it went a bit beyond that and it turned into an abscess.

So which is just like a big infection.

And so yeah, which I just didn't know any of this, and I feel like if I had have known anyway, went to the GP because I had this very red boob, like was I didn't feel well.

I was in bed, and so they're like she was five weeks old, wow, so really little.

And then went to the GP and they're like, oh, that's not great.

But then they told me that, which was just odd.

They told me to go to a physio to get ultrasound to break down anyway.

So when I did that, and at this pointist totally.

It was just really when I looked back on, I'm like, that was so screwed up.

How they told me to do that.

It was bright red inflamed big.

And they've said, you know, and even the woman who ultrasounded it was like, it looks quite infected, so go home and rest.

Anyway, that night went to emergency, so they drained it and just locally, you know, stuck some needles in and then took out this a whole lot of infected pass and then they said you should feel relief.

They were great, you should feel relief, go home tonight and rest.

Anyway, that night it got worse and was like a golf ball, went back into emergency and then had to have breast surgery the next morning.

Holy yeah.

And so all of this was just a bit of like a okay, all right, I'll just go with it.

And you know, lil was five weeks old, and when they're that little, they're still feeding every two to three hours.

So dependent.

So then yeah, had had the surgery.

It was so funny.

I remember because Tom my husband stayed home with Lil that night, and I think that's probably I can't remember if we'd introduced formula for feed already.

But anyway, I went to the emergency with my sister and we're sat which is fine, but we had to stay in the emergency section the whole night, and we just had this nonna who was next to us in a shared bed that was farting all night, and so Larsa and I was sharing this tiny my sister and I was sharing this tiny single bed, and I was just like, fuck.

Like I have to have this breast surgery in the morning.

But we were laughing.

Yeah.

Woman, that was just like coughing and splattering and fine.

So that was actually kind of nice because it kind of, you know, made it a bit humorous.

It could be a really dumb question.

Ah, yeah, no dumb questions.

Although they're you're infected on this side, can you still feed on this Yes?

Totally great question.

And do you know what's even go one step further?

Which I hate, still hate the arrogant surgeon that did my breast.

I have an issue with surgeons anywayholes.

They are assholes generally generally.

Attack the medical professor.

Say generally are they rural?

Are they rural surgeons?

Because we hate them the most.

No, this was in a city, but he no.

I just sometimes I'm like, oh, you just don't.

You haven't put yourself in the woman's shoes of five week old baby, first time mum, the stress that this would have.

So I had the surgery, which was quite full on.

I had this packing that went really deep because the infection was like deep behind my nipple.

So he came in to do like his check, you know, a day or two, like I can't remember, and he was like, yeah, so it all went well, you know, you should be fine better and you should be able to keep feeding out of that boob.

And I was like, oh, okay, yep.

So here's me, this hormonal like new mom that's just wanting to do the best for a child.

So I keep trying to feed.

I had milk coming out the wound at the top of my breast, and yes, I.

Was not prepared for this conversation.

I just like, like, you'll be five, keep feeding breast is best.

I know.

So I persisted until it nearly broke me and then my husband, my mom, my mother in law, and my maternal nurse, which God lover were all like stop an intervention, Yeah, you need to stop.

And I'm like, like this nutcase of But you know, I think a lot of women out there will will understand the pressure that you feel to breastfeed.

It's it's really messed up.

Like what do you when you're not able to do something that you think would have been so natural?

What does that do to your mindset?

What kind of place you win?

I just think again, it was so long ago now, but at the time, I just felt really like it wasn't like because I'm not usually a person that's like I feil it as a mother, but like it's sort of it really did sort of play with your mindset of well, this isn't how it's meant to be, Like why can't I do a simple thing like feeding my own baby?

Like I just don't understand.

Was it like a sense of failure?

Yeah?

And then also you know to try and persist.

And this happened with both because I had mass statists.

With my second it didn't go to an abscess, Saint God, but then with my with my thirty year ago, I didn't have any masst artists.

But I hated breastfeeding anyway, so I made the just my own.

Choice to stop breastfeeding.

But even in that, so you know, having children over eight years, I'm thirty seven or whatever.

And even when, like I said to my husband, I can't do this anymore, work so stressful, like the breastfeeding, I don't enjoy it takes so long.

And he was like, well, you know what, why why don't you change over to formula?

And I was like, oh, I just I can't like And anyway, we made the decision why I made the decision to do it, so he was helping me wean off it.

Even when my body could still make the milk.

Even though I'd made the decision, I'd be like, maybe I should just go back to feeding, maybe I should start pumping again to get my supply up.

And he was like, says, you know that our babies are fine, our previous to have been fine.

I know, but I just it's and then as soon as your body can't make it fine, like love formula.

It's the best.

It's really screwed up.

How it just plays with your mind?

And do you think like there was do you think there's external pressure for mums to have to breastfeed?

Do you think?

I think so?

But it's so funny you say that, because I've never been one to give a shit about what other people think necessary in some senses.

But with that, I was always I didn't think I cared.

But maybe, you know, just from societal norms and cultural norms for so long, it's just subconscious.

Maybe I do think that, you know, because I'd find myself justifying it to people if they're like, oh, you know, are you feeding?

Are you breastfeeding?

I'd be like, oh, no, formula fee but I had an abscess.

It's like.

Here's smoking because I can imagine like, yeah, like there's so much pressure on mums already.

And then we have a segment in our show where we're like what not to say to mums yeah or parents?

Sorry to be correct that, and one that does pop up is like, oh, so you didn't breastfeed.

It's like it's like it's the like you've done the wrong thing.

When it's always going to be different, There's always going to be different circumstances is always going to be different.

Yeah, different things that can.

Happen along the way or Laura's milk just shut off.

Yes, yeah, after a few months, just like she just ran dry.

Yeah, and I mean it was.

It's disappointing for me, you know, as a as a as a dad in that scenario, it just be like to do more work.

I was about to say, yeah.

When you start doing the bottle feeding.

I enjoyed it totally.

Yeah.

No, I've got mates, like guy mates that are like just loved when the breastfeeding was there, because I mean I didn't have to get.

Up in that night and do anything.

I'm like, yes, yes, exactly fucking.

Right, just try the other more time.

Yeah, yeah, I would like get up I would I think with Oscar at my firstborn, I would I think the lack of education for me around the whole, I just thought.

I just thought I didn't want able to be up alone.

Like the advice I was given was just don't talk, you know what I mean.

And then it got to a point where we're just both tired, and then it was like we had the conversation.

But then with my second because you obviously pick up things and what not to do.

For the first six months, like I said, I slept in the laund room, so that I could just.

Be right there and then there was not me in the way, really, because yeah, a lot of.

Time smoothed out.

I still haven't gone back.

He was in the state.

So that you have peace in the home at.

How was Tom during all of this?

He was great.

He's like a it's so funny.

I have to be careful with my words here because I was about to say hands on dad, But I'm a person that advocates not to say that's so that it becomes normal to be a fifty to fifty parent.

Sure, he's awesome.

He really enjoys.

I mean, no one enjoys being sleep deprived or but even like the hospital instance, I was in hospital for six nights, so he had Lily at home every night, and that was sort of like a real introduction because he was doing all night feeds.

I was at the time pumping in hospital, and then he'd bring her in in the morning until we.

Decided until I decided to stop breastfeeding.

But he's very good.

He's always been on feeds, like all even when I was breastfeeding early days.

For all three we do a formula feed because we love formula, and he'd always want to do it.

He'd always do like the late night let me go to bed for seven hours, and I'd do the one in the middle.

Like he's just always been pretty on board, wants to be involved, likes it doesn't complain like, yeah.

Did he have any green flags before you had kids where you thought, Okay, this is a sign this guy is going to be a His.

Dad's pretty good, so that I feel like he's yeah, yeah, so I feel like that's a pretty good sign.

Like his dad's French.

But he's also very like not that it matters about that makes it a good dad, No, but he was always pretty hands on, like even when you know, we've been going out for so long.

So I saw it for many years and heard stories of how he used to change nappies and do all that.

So I was like, wow, that's pretty and I love my dad to death, but did not change one of our fire nappies.

Ever.

My dad's a better parent to my kids than he was to me.

Yeah, yes, totally yeah, same, who is that?

Yes?

To deal with that?

Yeah, it's I think it's just well, I feel like grandparents have heard a lot.

It's different being a grandparent than a parent because you're like more relaxed, you realize the cycle of life, Like you're more grateful because you're not in this, you know, the nutcakees like.

You can leave.

Why do you dislike the term hands on parent?

It's just oh yeah, so I get I always go into this a little bit because I've got to chip on my shoulder about it.

Let's find It's just I get told all the time I'm how lucky I am because Tom's so hands on, And it just shits me because I'm like, whatso, And there's a million things that runs through my head.

But firstly, and not that everyone has to both work full time, but in our case, and everyone's case is different, we both work full time.

So I don't see why it's so odd to see that he parents like full time with me.

Yeah, I guess he's not receiving the same commentary of like, you're so lucky that Sarah works totally.

And then when do you ever hear the comment of like about mum's being hands on, You're such a hands on mums Sarah, Like it just doesn't exist because it's expected.

Yeah, So it's just it's just this idea that and then it shits me as well because I'm like, he's not a good dad.

He's actually just a good dad because he's a good human.

So it sort of stems back to you know, it's a lot of the time, Yeah, women that do more with their children that say to me, oh, you're just so lucky because Tom does so much, And I'm like, well, we kind of fifty to fifty parents, so it's not like he's doing more or I'm laying on the couch just chilling out like it just yeah, it shits me because it's his whole notion of like it also just undermines men even more for wanting to be more involved with their children.

It's like, yeah, I.

Think like when we were expecting our first child, I never.

Any of this stuff never occurred to me.

So I just got up and did what I thought I had to do, which was we both had this kid, right, so this is our.

Kids, your kid here to help.

You're not a hands on mum.

You're right, that doesn't exist because you are just mum.

So why can't dad just be dad?

Yeah?

And why does he have to get praised because he does school drop off?

Because it's really hard.

You know, So I actually agree with that, but yeah, it's just a funny And then I'm like often his extension of being a good father, which is he is a wonderful father, but that's just because he's a good human and so he is a considerate person.

He's loving, he's caring, he's nurturing.

He gives a shit about how his kids, not saying people don't if they're not hands on, but he gives a shit about how his three girls are going to grow up in the world.

So he wants to be there and around them, and he gets and I'm not just saying this, he often says this to me.

He gets pure joy just out of hanging out with them, like getting outside doing fun shit.

It's not a chore for him.

But I think that just comes back to who he is as a person as opposed to like being trained to be a good dad or I've skept it out like this this guy that's just going to do everything that I don't want to do in parenting or whatever.

So it's yeah, I just I think that we need to kind of also raise.

The dog for the listeners.

Laura's ruined the podcast by rudely coming back.

From a haircut and pointing out the washing that you didn't put it.

She did say make sure let's put away three times.

And also I just said, I don't know what you're talking about because I don't want to get involved.

Yeah, because it's you know, you can to me.

So you were saying that you hate it when people say you're lucky to have.

A hands on dad.

What would you prefer how would you prefer people to refer to like that situation.

I don't know.

It's it's probably not even a title I want him to have.

I think it's just more people to have the view and the lens that having a partnership is more like is normal as opposed to, you know, mum being primary caregiver and it always defaulting back to the mum and the dad's the helper or you know.

I used to infuriate me when guys would say, oh, well, I'm babysitting this Saturday night.

I'd be like, oh my god, are you're fucking kidding?

They're your children.

I always do that.

Yeah, yeah, but it's sort.

Of like, oh my god, we're in twenty twenty five.

How can people be thinking like that.

Just because the woman carried the baby, it does not mean that she should and it's do you know what it's it's very because it's such a touchy subject for people.

It's very dependent on everyone's personal situation, and in our case, we both do work full time.

So I get really not upset, but like agitated when people are like, you're so lucky because you know.

Tom will turn up at school three mornings a week as opposed to my two, and I'm like.

Jesus, like, are we really there?

Do?

We want to break down every role that we do in the home, like so how did.

You guys get there?

And dividing up who does what when it comes to being a parause it's such a blurred line where you are both just juggling.

Yeah, Like did you have to sit down and say, hey, this is You're gonna do A B and C, you know, and I'll do the rest?

Not really, I feel like we just fell into because most of the time when I go to do school drop off, I'm late.

Every time there's shit left ever, I leave the lunch boxes at home, and I think Tom's just like I like to do it and I'm better at it, so I'll do it.

And I'm like, okay, great, But I think we we didn't ever sit down and you know, divvy up.

I think we just naturally fell and we've been together such a long time.

But I weirdly am like to young people every now and then, I'm like, you should which sounds so ridiculous, but you should try and have.

A conversation with your partner before you have.

Kids about which it's so hud because once you have a child, it changes everything and even what you said before you had your first baby will be different to when you have it.

But have a conversation about, you know, the woman's career or how you want that to change, or what you might think the next year looks like.

And I don't know.

I just feel like people go into having their first baby blind, which most of us do.

When that's guilty.

Yes, I did the same.

I felt like I did the same.

And then after the baby came, it was like, oh, give me a girl that yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just felt like by putting myself in the position where it's like I'd never change it nappy in my life.

Yeah yeah.

And it was like day one, I'm like, give me a go yeah, And then it was like, oh, you know I can do this and whatever, and I and like, I don't.

Yeah, I'd never thought about it as like, yeah, hands on it.

I was just doing it because it was there.

Yeah, I.

Can tell us about Laura had.

To come and say, like, you're being a bit useless.

Shot to the ego.

Now, Yeah, when you look.

Back at because you're very experienced now with three children, when you look back at the early days of parenting, breastfeeding asign, is there anything that you look back on and go, God, I was doing things so stupidly.

I wish I'd done things to.

Lots of things.

But I'm like, God, it was such a long time ago that I'm like, it's a blur.

Yeah, it is.

Kind of a blur, like an eight years as well, Like you sort of.

I don't know.

My best mate's about to have her first baby, and I've been thinking about it a lot lately because I'm like, what do I tell her?

Like, what advice do I give it?

A luck?

You're gotta be fucked ye.

However, but it's just a bit like everyone's so different, Like I'm sure i'd have ten but nothing.

But it's not like I'm saying I was a perfect parent, no fucking way.

But I'm like I can't think of one at the minute.

But I'm like you just I feel like you, Yeah, you sort of just adapt as you can.

Like you said, it's going to be so.

Different, yes, for every kid's different and every situation is going to be different.

It's hard to like give it overarching advice.

Definitely think you just like just do I think, and we say it a lot on this podcast.

Just do the best you can.

Absolutely, and also just give yourself a break.

I think at times, like you know, it's it's such a foot and that's what I've because having three daughters myself now, I've said to myself, like I've ingrained this in my brain of time.

Will pass and you'll forget so much of the early days.

Like you know, we're still kind of in it with Ellier, our third now, who's fifteen months old.

But you know, you get older, you've done it two times before, you kind of it's not as significant as the first time.

But I might just don't forget how hard it is when you have that first baby to be particularly a female with the hormones, with the like what the fuck am I doing?

I don't know what the hell's going on?

Like you know, who am I as a person anymore.

You totally lose your identity for however long until you work out you know how to get it back or what you.

Want to do.

But I might just don't forget, you know, because you do get a lot of the older mum comments that are like, oh, sleep when the baby sleeps, and like all that annoying shitty advice that you're just like, fuck off when the baby sleeps.

I've got one hour to clean the house, do this, do this, do this, yeah, run the business.

I'm like, I'm not sleeping, like and also I'm so highly strung that I can't.

So it's just sort of like just be there and be supportive and and you know, anything you need I can do, and just don't forget.

And I have to think about this often with my three younger sisters as well when they're going to get pregnant, and also my best mate, but also my three daughters in however many years time, that is, if they decide to have children, of like, just be there and be a nice support don't give annoying advice, just like turn up, do some washing, you know, take the baby out for a walk, whatever, and just remember that the new mum, hormonal brain is pretty fucked.

Up on the edge of it.

I'm really telling it again.

I know I'm thinking, my god, that wasn't in the brace position before.

I am.

Now.

I want to talk about transitioning from having your own catering company yep, to then being going to call you a social media superstar.

You've got a mill a million followers on instagramie that.

You're on to a winner on social media.

So I started the Instagram account during COVID when my business had sort of been closed because in Victoria we had long, long lockdowns and yes sort of started but still had my catering company alongside it.

So I just sort of did it.

Add the love of food and cooking and I sort of thought, I'm just going to start an account and start filming recipes and put them out there.

It was when reels had just started, and it was actually my husband where we sat down because I was just flat as a tower.

I was like, oh my god, I can't run my business.

I can't plan like and he was sort of like.

I was like, I want to buy a camera and start filming these recipes, and he was like, well, these reels seem to be going off, and we both had a chat and I was like, yep, I'm going to do it.

And then it wasn't until about still un till I started posting consistently, so daily that I always tell this story that I was in a Woolies like I sort of posted a recipe and then got my trolley, was walking around Woolies and my phone just started to be like ding ding ding ding, and I was sort of like, oh, I don't really know what's going on here, and then pulled it out.

It was sort of the first one of my videos that had gone viral.

Do you remember which one it was?

It was a chickpea avocado mix.

I feel like, I feel like there's something I could.

Do it super easy, you said.

Got elemon and easy things.

People forget that before Reel started, you couldn't really have a post go viral because it was just the people that followed you.

So I actually feel like it was harder.

For people to build a following before Reel started because they had to find you or hear of you and literally search you to.

Then you know, follow on that explore page.

Background, Yes, it was only people with already big accounts that were already known people was really hard.

Yes, unless it cracking, unless it was spam.

Yeah, but yeah, like reels pushing, pushing your stuff out to the masses.

Yeah yeah.

Yeah.

So that was kind of the first point.

And then from then it just I started growing really quickly, and I was a bit like, oh, Okay, it wasn't a huge surprise to me because I'm not going to sit here and be like my recipes are ship.

But I was surprised in the benefit that it gave people.

I was quite like, I got all these beautiful, lovely messages of people like, oh my god, I'd lost my zans in the kitchen, and then I started cooking your food and I loved it.

And you've got me back in the kitchen, all the kids are eating the dinner and all of this sort of stuff.

I'm like, like the market where.

This is more just over like weeks, you know.

And also like at that time COVID people had so much.

Time with definitely everyone was cooking the sourdough, you know, making the sound.

We always say, were like, there's so many good things that came out of Yes, I miss it, be honest, I miss.

It because I wouldn't I wouldn't be doing what I do now.

Yes, it's incredible.

Yes, probably same as you totally because you would have just been like, I want to build my catering business, but you had.

To shift your focus to the environment that we were living in.

Totally.

Yeah, definitely, and I feel like that's exactly right.

It was a blessing in disguise because at the time it felt terrible because it was sort of and I had two lead spaces in the city in Melbourne that were just like draining money and so I was super stressful.

I was also pregnant with Penny, my second daughter, So at.

The time it felt terrible.

But then you know, you kind of see the silver lining and what's happened from it, and it's saying, oh, we.

Would have provided like you're saying, you have people coming out to you saying I.

Found my spark at the kid.

Yeah, you would have so many people that you have like provided one entertainment and too like a new purpose in that in that moment.

Yeah, and also just people.

Yeah, I just sort of I didn't take my cooking for granted, but I didn't think that it would give what it gives people.

And that's what's really nice.

Like I got stopped on a flight recently and this beautiful air hostess was like, hello, Sarah, and anyway said hello, and then as I was leaving the plane, she said, O, my daughter during COVID was really sick with an eating disorder and then we found you.

Oh my god, I'm almost about to get terry.

But she was like, and she's learned to eat really well again and she's got really healthy and she's now one hundred percent.

And I was just a bit like, oh wow, Like that's the thing, you know, I sort of think, you know, only nurses and doctors and stuff like that and had that life changing kind of effect.

So it was just you know, things like that that are just like oh wow, you know, I really just took my cooking for granted.

Yeah, give you, yeah totally.

I just yeah left that plane.

I was like, I feel a million bucks.

My tea, please.

Me take you O.

It was on the way out.

She was just beautiful.

So yeah, it's yeah, lovely messages like that and feedback that you can You're like, oh wow, this is so worth it.

Coming from a guy who's only got about three recipes and his repertoire, where do you get your inspiration from to keep coming up with new recipes.

I get uses all the time, actually, and I don't have a really good answer.

It's just I guess that in a non arrogant way, is my skill, Like, it's.

Just what I love to do.

Often.

I obviously love cookbooks, love cooking magazines, love cooking shows.

Online now is so amazing, you know that social media and stuff like that for food creation.

But I just can always.

Come up with different recipes.

It's what I really love to do.

And it does help when you love doing it.

Yeah, it's hard to come up with things when you hate doing it totally.

And when it comes like my father in law, Gille the French Ship, He's always like says, yeah, I don't understand, Like how can you just keep coming up with them?

I'm like, they just appear in my brain.

I don't know, Like I'll see it an ingredient and that and that, and I'll have a sort of idea and then give it a go and sometimes it works sometimes most of the time, without sounding like a dick, it works because I've done this all my life.

But that is just and that's the thing I often say.

I'm like, whatever, you guys do it, and you know because people are like, wow, you're really good at I'm like, but you're really good at what you do in your job.

It just so happens at Cooking is something that everyone has to do every day that they think that I'm really amazing.

But I'm like, it's actually just my skill.

It is a skill to know what two things or what several things are going to be like when they're together.

That's what rattles.

I'm like, two okay, someone was like, you put two things together.

I don't know what's going there putting I'm thinking of the combinations.

It's like who would have known?

Who is terrible?

But it is a starving right now.

Not everything's a joke about me, I think if I like, I think it's a big skill to be like, okay, well I know what though it's like honey and peanut butter, I know what that's going to taste like.

But that's about it.

Yes, It's like thinking of the combinations that are going to work together is tricky, and it's you know.

This is so fun to make jokes in my expense.

I would never How do you apply that skill to their you're parenting like when you're trying to come up with hacks to make eating easier with your own kids.

Yeah, look, hacks are interesting because I've got a lot of them, but I'm very careful to give you know, like try this with you three year old that's only eating you know, this and this and this, because it's not always going to work.

Like that's what's so hard.

If there was an answer to pickie eaters, we would know it by now and we.

Would be like, cool, got the answer.

My child eats broccoli and capsicam and all of this stuff now.

So it's my biggest one is I'm always like it starts with you, as annoying as that sounds, but like you are the model to your child.

So it's like you need to be eating well.

You need to be talking positively about food.

And when I mean positively about food, it's not connecting it to weight, not talking about good and bad foods, that kind of thing.

Because I feel like it's all ingrain from us from a very young age, our attitudes towards you know, different foods, and especially for females, that it can create such unhealthy sort of you know, go down the path of eating disorders and all of that sort of jazz.

It all starts from when they're a young child and the way.

We talk about it.

But then yeah, different things.

So I'm beas, oh, yeah, the Beije diet.

Beij Eaters just love everything white, and most parents would be like, oh yeah, my child's been through that stage.

So like white bread, white rice, pasta, chippies.

Am is this my dying yes?

For those who like the beige foods, how can you sneak in a couple of veggies?

Yes, I always say, and I love veggies, but I'm like, it's another annoying answer.

It's a long haul game, so you're not going to get you quick fixed overnight.

It's about patience and persistence, and it's sort of there's little things I do, so they'll always tend to like one veggie, Like you can pretty much say, oh, I know Peno likes capsicm Little likes broccoli.

So it's like serving them new veggies alongside what you know that they like and you know that they're going to eat, so it's not forcing them to eat it.

It's sort of like put it out and annoyingly.

Research shows that it can take fifteen to twenty exposures of ave a particular vegetable before they start eating it.

And that's so annoying to hear his parents because you're just like, fuck.

Like, getting dinner on the table is enough, Like, and then.

I've got to change up the ways to cook it and keep giving it even though she keeps throwing it on the floor and going yack like, but it's just a long haul game.

So it is about serving it next to familiar foods, changing it up the way that you cook it, you know, abon, pan, fry, microwave, whatever you want to do, but just sticking with it and you know, keep going over many many many years.

Fun because Marley she loves cook carrot Lala has to have it raw.

Yeah, And it's annoying when because all kids are different.

But that's like adults, right, So I'm always like, they're not trying to be annoying to you.

They're not trying to be little assholes.

It's just like sometimes but it's like most adults have preferences with what they do don't and do like and I'm not saying if you do those sorts of things, they're gonna love every vegetable when they're older, it's just not the case because adults don't.

But it stead of is a way to kind of, over years build those healthy habits.

It should be the chef's final test to change.

I reckon that's the fine.

You can't be chef unless you could do that.

Yeah, because I feel like you said you've.

Got to fry it, steam its or take where's the microwave come in?

I do love a microwave.

So many veggies have been microwaved in our house.

Love it.

There's nothing wrong with a microwave.

I'll take you cook veggies totally.

But also it's like, have you ever had like colli cauliflower for example?

Now I'm getting really into the nitty gritty, but just maybe not for a two year old or three d because they're just gonna be like yuck.

But have you ever had couliflower roasted with just olive oil and pepper in the oven?

Delicious?

Delicious?

Do it for me and let me know, Yeah that's what.

Yeah, it is quite beige, but you change out the way you cook it delicious.

Okay.

So it's just all those little things.

And another really quick little tip I love to do so when you get them home from like school or daycare or kinder or whatever it is, and you're like, fuck, they're starving, they're grumpy.

I always like to and you know what they like.

Don't put pressure on trying to expose them, like it is about exposure over many years.

But on a round of Tuesday night, just give them what they like.

But chop up a whole lot of I always chop up carrot, salary, cucumber, capsicum.

Put it on a plate while you're cooking dinner, and.

Don't put any pressure on it.

That's the other thing.

Just you're not sitting there saying eat three of those.

And usually when they're hungry.

They'll just sort of pop it on the thing while they're dancing around or watching some TV.

Or playing and they'll sort of watch yeah, just.

Little eye and usually they'll have two or three pieces whatever, and you're like, great, now I don't have to pressure them at dinner time to eat their vegies.

I love the it's it's very good.

It's just like a non yeah.

Takes the pressure off it.

I love it when it's like that.

They're like, I'm hungry, have a carrot Like I don't like that, And I go, you must've been that hungry.

Then that gets them.

You just that just shut them up and can turn them into a good little child.

So one question we always end on when your girls are all grown up and they're no longer living at home, what is the one thing you would want them to remember about the house they grew up in?

Oh god, this one will often get me emotional too.

I think all lots of things, but fun.

I just think fun is I mean obviously loving and supportive and happy home.

I think, you know, the relationship you have with your partner is so important to show children like as much as you can, because we all have bad days, but a healthy relationship.

So that me with particularly having three females, so that they know what to expect when they grow up and they have high standards for their partner boy or girl.

But I think just joy and fun.

I think, you know, dances.

Sometimes Tom and I get into the you know, with having our own businesses and everything like that, you can be like, oh god, okay, tonight routine, like you know, Sunday night routine, get your clothes out to all that, And lately, especially lately, I've just sort of been like, oh, we just don't have to do that every night we can, and we do dance a lot.

Our girls love music, so we'll have it on for an hour every night, and we.

Just are stupid and dance.

So it's just I want them to remember that their household, their childhood household, was full of joy and fun and laughter.

Laughter is so so important.

Can you feel guilty for being like?

Find the balance?

Can you please put your shoes on pedo?

Can you please put your shoes on pedo?

Every time?

I'm holding something very special?

It came in the male recently.

This is your second cookbook?

Yes, it is my second cookbook, Family Food.

Sorry, you're going to ask a question.

Wondering, wondering are there any recipes in that book that maybe two novices myself and Ash giving in mind.

We do have a bit of a sweet tooth.

Yes, but we could cook.

It's easy, it's simple.

Oh yeah, I've got a couple.

Actually, what are you thinking?

BROWNI has come to mind.

But there's also one bowl blueberry and coconut like bread loafing that you just throw it all into a bowl, tip it into a tin, put it in the oven, and there you go.

That sounds about It.

Makes you sound really easy.

Let's try and do that.

We'll put it on our social So people do want to get that recipe.

They'll get in the kitchen and cook.

But if they do want to get their hands on family food, where should they pick one up from?

So you can get them from all.

I mean, you can just jump on my instagra and it's in my biolink all the places you can buy it, but anywhere online, Amazon, you know, or anything doing such a good job totally what's the Lady and will of fortune.

But also you know any stores.

Target came up big w It's a beautiful I'm always if you go to Target, make sure you pay for it in your bag and walk out.

We'll also put a link to it in a show.

And also small independent bookstores because I'm a big one for small businesses.

So if you've got a local bookstore, definitely try and get it from there to.

It well, thank you so much.

Yes, I'm going to toss and throw.

And poor poor yeah.

Gosh.

Before we go, we are going to do a recipe with Wholesome by Sarah.

We have a delicious little blueberry bread cake.

We're going to put that on our socials.

But before we go, if you have enjoyed this episode.

We would absolutely love it, love it to death, love it with both hands, love it like a criminal would.

Please, for the love of God, give us a review, just a couple of words.

You're getting real big.

I need well, I've been too light and the listeners they're not giving us the reviews threatening, they're just taking the episodes and they're leaving us with nothing.

Anyway, if you want to join us on socials, where can they find us?

Matt had Two Doting Dads on TikTok Instagram and there is a Facebook group also, not the guest episodes, but the Wednesday episodes.

Full episodes are now on YouTube and well.

Yeah, well we'll go.

Thank thank you, thank you, good Budy.

Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.

We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torrestraight onland the people's today,