From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

This is the morning edition.

I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris.

It's Monday, November 3rd.

High profile politician Alex Greenwich is used to the robust world of public office.

But never, he says, had he experienced such an intense attack on his sexuality until after his public stoush with Mark Latham.

Latham, the former labor leader turned political pariah, was ordered to pay Greenwich $140,000 for a vile social media post that the federal court found defamed the gay Sydney independent MP.

It's a judgment that Latham, now an independent MP, is appealing.

All of this is not new, but Greenwich is now speaking out about the extent that the saga has affected him.

Firstly, Alex, welcome to the Morning Edition.

Thank you.

Exciting to be here.

First off, I'd just like you to take us back to 2023 when Mark Latham posted a tweet about you.

His words were far more vile.

But basically he said that sex between men was disgusting.

So can you take us to that moment when you read that?

What did you think and feel?

Well, you know, I don't like to go back and think about it that much.

But for the benefit of this, I.

I was in shock.

So I was just meeting with the incoming member for Wakehurst, Michael Regan, and his staff in my office, sort of helping him set up.

And partway through that meeting, I started to get a whole bunch of notifications on my phone, and I just left the meeting with Michael very briefly, just to sort of get a hold of had something happened.

My staff member shows me a photo of the tweet and I was just in shock.

And then suddenly, you know, my media person Bron is saying this is what he said.

People are asking for comment because things move really quickly.

New South Wales One Nation leader Mark Latham is no stranger to controversy, but a comment posted to Twitter this morning and since deleted has shocked his colleagues and the community.

Nothing short of disgraceful.

I think that they're vile and shameful comments and I think he's revealed himself to be a bigot.

Federal One Nation leader Pauline Hanson says Mr.

Latham's comments today went too far.

I think they are disgusting.

I've actually tried to ring Mark a couple of times to no avail.

I've asked him to give the people an apology.

So before I had any option to absorb what was actually being said and directed at me and the follow on response from heaps of his followers, my first response was to be I was totally in shock and I just wanted it to go away.

And I guess just tell us just briefly, what was the context for this tweet?

Like what had happened just briefly.

Yeah.

Well, there there had been an election that was, you know, that had happened a couple of days earlier, um, where Mr.

Latham and the Pauline Hanson One Nation party, which he was running under, had performed fairly poorly, actually.

Um, a few days before that, um, there was a, a political event that he was speaking at, which he was it was an event where he was speaking against LGBTQ rights and particularly targeting the trans and gender diverse community.

There were a small group of colourful advocates who were going to protest outside that political event.

Somehow this group got tipped off, um, and there was now going to be potentially hundreds of counter-protesters.

Quite.

You know, who there was a concern would be violent.

In the lead up to Easter at a suburban Catholic church, emotions explode.

Up to 300 men, many from a group called Christian Lives Matter, descending after word spread of 15 gay rights protesters assembled nearby Saint Michael's Bellefield.

Vastly outnumbered, completely overwhelmed.

So were the police.

One officer injured and a female protester who appears to get punched from behind.

The gay rights group was outside the hall because One Nation leader Mark Latham was inside giving a speech they called anti-transgender.

Police had advised Mr.

Latham not to proceed with the event because if he did, it could result in violence.

He was asked not whether he wanted to speak after the violent confrontation had occurred, and he decided that he still wished to do that, and we were there to make sure that no further incidents occurred.

Now, this was all this information.

All came to me.

Um, you know, from from the Herald, actually from a journo who had contacted me to ask for comment.

The following morning.

And I'm someone who really values democracy and a safe and robust democracy.

The election had been a hotly contested by Chris Minns and Dominic Perrottet and had been so respectful.

But here we have, you know, a political actor who has ignored police advice.

The result was violence.

So my my response to that was, it's disgusting.

And people needed to be aware of that if they were going to be voting One Nation.

And for Mark Latham.

Was followed by a vicious verbal brawl today, with the high profile independent Alex Greenwich unleashing on Mark Latham, calling his fellow MP a disgusting human being.

Mark Latham has been whipping up these thugs into a violent.

Um.

That's what I said.

Now, he responded to that.

He blamed me for the protesters.

He had a few choice words to say about me.

You know, political back and forth surrender.

We don't wave the white flag to people who want to close down free speech.

And last night they didn't close down mine.

Then suddenly, out of the blue, this tweet and a whole bunch of other commentary from Mr.

Latham just starts to roll into the world.

Okay.

And I do want to clarify your exact quote was you did call him a disgusting human being.

So that's the exact quote.

And then he tweets this.

Really such a vile tweet that most news organizations, including ours, have not printed it because it really is so offensive.

And then I guess, just tell us about the impact that that tweet has had on you.

And in the two years since it was posted, because you've just given this really quite open interview to gay magazine DNA, which really is the reason why we're speaking today, because you reveal, you know, quite a grave picture of what the impact that all of this has had on you, and what you've called a torrent of abuse that was poured onto you as a result.

So I guess just tell us about the impact on you.

Well, I think the important thing to say is it wasn't just this one tweet.

Yes.

I mean, that was that was the tweet that, you know, lots of media outlets reported on.

Um, he provided subsequent commentary to the Sunday Telegraph, where he alluded that I was somehow a risk to children.

He went on a series of of tweets about me and his impressions of my sex life, um, and engaged with his followers, who continued to mock and humiliate me.

Um, the other side of that was my office was inundated.

Inundated with abusive phone calls, inundated with emails.

My social media was completely targeted.

I like I've had to now disable Twitter or X on my phone because the moment I would open it, it would just be, you know, people calling me a pedophile.

Um, rewording what Mr.

Latham had said, posting photos of me, um, all sorts of disgusting emojis directed at me.

As I said, phone calls to my office, handwritten threatening letters to my office.

I mean, death threats.

Write death threats.

You know, I you know, as I was saying to, um, Alex Smith when we were talking about this the other day, I've actually lost count how many avos the police have taken out on my behalf.

I think there have been, um, 2 or 3 court proceedings.

People have been charged and convicted, you know, and we're talking about correspondents that actually names Mr.

Latham as a reason for why people were writing to me.

Um, so and, you know, I would go see my, you know, because you've got to spend a lot of time with lawyers when you're taking defamation or vilification proceedings.

And I was taking both.

I just I'd go into Nick Stewart's office.

He's an amazing lawyer and I'm grateful for his representation.

And I just see these binders of evidence and they would just stare at me.

Um, and in the in the defamation proceedings, part of the evidence was playing the voicemails to my office, and my mum was there, my husband was there, and I just felt my world shrinking.

I felt completely under attack.

Um, this deep sense of guilt that I had put my staff through this.

You know, my staff work for me because they share my sense of purpose and like the issues I work on.

They don't work for me to be abused, humiliated, or to have to deal with that in a vicarious way through the attacks on me.

So I had this massive sense of guilt on the impacts on them.

We had to close the office to visitors.

So of course, actually, do you mind if I interject?

I wouldn't normally.

No, it's just that because I feel like it's important to give the listeners an indication of the sort of messages you got, because they really are.

I honestly can't imagine what it would be like to hear this.

You know, one caller said to you and your office staff, I bet you your fathers are proud of you, aren't they?

Um, another one said, you know, how dare you represent Sydney.

Are you effing serious?

Go bury your head in shame.

And I believe you were getting so many threats that I think the police had to, um, sort of guide your staff through how to handle mail.

Yes, absolutely.

So, I mean, it really was very, very threatening.

I mean, did you did you fear for your life?

Did you feel fear for your safety?

You know, I did.

I did fear for my safety, um, for for for periods of time here.

And, you know, the the sensible thing for Mr.

Latham to do the thing that my Mile always formally wrote and requested for him to do was to apologize, retract, and maybe even go as far as to say, you know, probably, you know, don't don't direct this kind of hate at Mr.

Greenwich because he's aware of all of this, right?

Of course.

We've been in legal proceedings for two and a half years now.

He has seen all of this evidence.

He knows what's been directed at me, and he has chosen to simply keep going.

I mean, he really did double down because I believe at one point he either wrote on social media or said elsewhere, um, yeah, something along the lines of, you know, what am I?

What am I supposed to say?

That that anal sex between men is not disgusting or something along those lines?

So he really did double down, like to be clear.

And I mean, let's talk about the impact on you because you did you gave this interview to DNA magazine.

Um, you were very candid in it.

You know, you've said you've been diagnosed with PTSD and that that's been a real struggle.

And there's one line in it that really stopped me in my tracks.

You said, because of the tweet you're referring to, the initial tweet by Mark Latham and the torrent of abuse I received.

I felt disgusted by myself at times.

Now that really struck me because I think most listeners, I or many like myself, have probably had moments where they feel disgusted by yourself, and it's really probably one of the most confronting things you can feel.

So what do you mean by that?

So for for the longest period of time, it felt like this was the only thing people wanted to talk about.

They would people would stop me on the street.

They would, um, they would stop me in the supermarket.

They colleagues would come up to me and, you know, make jokes about it.

Oh, really?

I remember one colleague in Parliament, I remember one colleague coming up to me and saying, oh, you know, that means that Mark's thinking about you having sex and and then as I look at my social media, as I look at my inbox, as I look at this torrent of abuse and I get a great deal of support from people, you know, I don't deny that people have been wonderful, but but I saw that at that time in the in the sort of emotional state I was in, I saw that support as pity, which was not which is not a feeling I like to feel as someone who likes to help people.

Right.

So it was a combination of the most sexualised attacks I have ever received in 20 years in public life.

Pity from people who who I wanted them to see me as a leader, not as someone who, you know, you know, was some sort of victim of this horrible stuff.

Um, and so, yes, the combination of those things was I was actually disgusted by myself.

I thought that when people saw me, they saw me in the context of that tweet and his subsequent commentary, because that's all I was getting from people, whether it was comments which were, you know, meant to be supportive.

And I get that's the motivation.

I took his pity or whether it was just from the horrific abuse that would come at me or the threats that would come at me.

And you sort of think, am I?

Am I that disgusting that it would motivate someone to go to the trouble, to handwrite a letter, to put it in an envelope and to send it, or to, um, send a series of letters to my office, or to phone up an office and to leave a long winded voicemail.

It's like, what is there about me that's motivating people to do that?

So it was the sort of this horrible combination of of stuff that just wore me down.

And I was wondering when I was reading that, you know, whether it perhaps triggered memories of discrimination or shame, that I don't know if you felt growing up as a result of your sexual orientation because you once said that you struggled with your sexuality in moments like the time when you were a teenager and the then prime minister, Paul Keating, made what is now an infamous quote that two blokes in a cocker spaniel don't make a family.

You know, you told my colleague Jordan Baker that that statement probably kept me in the closet more than anything else.

The message he sent was, If I'm gay, I'm not going to have a family.

So did this trigger those feelings, I think.

I think, Mo, you know, I'm a gay man.

I won't speak for other parts of the LGBT community, but I think most gay men have a certain level of internalized homophobia.

And these comments and the abuse I got as a result of it did trigger that.

You know, I had I think, you know, it is so wonderful when I go to high schools now and I see students come out, you know, as anywhere queer on the spectrum, that wasn't the experience I had.

You know, no one was out when I was in high school.

Um, I was still very closeted up until my mid 20s.

Um, and for my generation, that was not a unique thing at all.

Um, so you have all these images of, of, of gay people thrown at you, particularly in the time I was growing up, that we are somehow sexually deviant, that we are sick or ill, um, uh, that we're illegal, you know, uh, that there is something wrong with us that we can be fixed.

So when you're given all those messages, there's a lot of gay men, you know, my age and older and younger.

For now, I think.

Yeah.

Have have have got their whole life.

When you then get this extra abuse later on, it does trigger you.

And you know, I, I remember reflecting I did a, I did a press conference because I wanted to wrap it all up.

This is two days later.

And I thought, okay, I'll just wrap this all up and it'll go away.

And I just remembered thinking, you know, I've been in public life for about, you know, at that point, probably about 18 years, I've been able to have robust political debates on some tough issues, but I've never been so intensely attacked for my sexuality, something that I cannot change.

Um, and it really, it just it dragged me down.

And now you've already won a case in the Federal Court against Mark Latham for having defamed you with his tweet.

The judge granted you $140,000, ordered Latham to pay your legal costs, which I think is something in the order of half $1 million.

Latham, I should add, is appealing this decision.

And you wrote on social media at the time that this judgment makes Australia a safer place for me, my community and my parliamentary colleagues.

So I'm really wondering, you know, what was motivating you to do this interview and the photo shoot, which we'll get into in a moment.

And by revealing, you know, really vulnerability.

You know, not every politician I imagine wants to, you know, give an interview in which they talk about having full on panic attacks and breaking into tears and sometimes just not being able to do your work.

So, yeah, why do it?

I took the legal action because I also believe in justice and there was no other avenue for justice for me than to do that.

I did not expect it to.

The whole process to have such a toll on me, um, and I did not expect it to be so long and drawn out.

But that was the doing of the of the person who I was taking action against.

Um, and I and then in doing the, in doing the interview with DNA, I mean, my motivation for doing the interview with DNA, the initial one was I was at Utopia, which is this beautiful queer museum.

It's the former police station where people were arrested after the first Mardi Gras in 78.

DNA had an exhibit to celebrate.

Sydney in.

Sydney.

In Sydney.

Yeah.

And and I didn't know what started the magazine.

So what started DNA was they started to to get out into the world an alternate view of gay men.

Because the world view of gay men was from the HIV and Aids crisis, which was, uh, sexually depraved, sick, ill, dying men and DNA wanted to put out into the world an image of gay men as fit and healthy and beautiful.

And that really resonated with me, because I felt that the world saw me in a certain way.

And I thought, I want to put an alternate worldview of me, one that I think is actually a bit more accurate than that tweet into the world.

And I had been throughout the past two years focusing on health and wellbeing.

Um, which was a struggle, right?

Which was a struggle.

But it was the best thing for me, you know, to get up in the morning, go to the gym.

And how much of a struggle was it like, can you briefly tell us because, I mean, PTSD, this is the diagnosis.

You said you've been given.

I really didn't know what was happening because what I knew was I was not able to concentrate.

But were you still you were still working, though as an MP?

I was still working as an MP.

And was that a real struggle though?

Like, were there days where you just couldn't get out of bed and.

There would be.

There would be days in which I couldn't concentrate.

There would be days where I would just leave early.

I would really rely on my staff to do the heavy lifting for me.

I heavily reduce the amount of events I would do, um, or if I was giving it my all in my job, I was certainly not giving it my all at home.

And you know that that had an impact on my husband.

And you were really questioning, weren't you, whether you could even continue in politics, I believe.

Well, look at the at the at the beginning of this year, I would have said 5% chance I would continue it.

And what did that feel like?

Like I started to think of, you know, I just had this urge I needed to run away.

I started to think of what else I could do.

And what else were you thinking of?

Oh, look.

I sat down and spoke to spoke to a variety of people, but whatever it was, if you asked me at the beginning of the year, it would be something that was not public facing.

Yeah.

I was I was feeling completely beaten up, um, Um, going, you know, going to an event or going to the coals and people stopping me and asking me about this case.

Um, that all that all had an impact on me.

It had an impact on my husband as well.

Um, what was the impact on your husband?

Well, Victor, let's give him a name.

Yeah.

Victor.

He deserves a beautiful Victor Hall.

Yeah, yeah, he deserves it.

With his torn ACL, which is recovering really well.

That's right.

Um, you deserve a name, Victor.

Um.

Um.

Who I love.

Um, you know, he wanted the old Alex back.

You know, he had.

So was there pressure on you from, like.

I mean, I'm married.

Lots of listeners will be married.

We have family.

Life can be stressful.

I'm very lucky that Vic is extremely patient.

Um, and someone's got to be and has been, you know, he's been he's been used to me going through struggles and political challenges.

He's never seen something impacting me so personally.

Were you depressed?

I would say I was exhibiting what would be depression.

Absolutely.

I mean, I couldn't sleep.

Yeah, I would have panic attacks.

I had lack of concentration.

I would begin sweating at times where I wouldn't start sweating.

I would have uncontrollable outbursts of emotions.

Um, now, because rage.

Both sadness, rage, you know?

And unfortunately for Vic, a lot of that was contained to home life.

Um, it's where it's safe, right?

It's where it's safe.

And when you're when you're out in Parliament, you would just sort of steal yourself and fake it.

If I could, but I had moments where, I mean, I, I clearly was not myself.

Even in Parliament.

Like, how would that manifest?

I would get angrier than I usually would.

Um, and would you then think, oh, my God, people are gonna.

I wouldn't even know what to think.

Yeah, and I just want to get out of there.

Okay, well, let's let's move to the shoot, because it's so interesting.

So you thought so you go from I might want to completely move away from public life, which sounds perfectly understandable.

And to taking my clothes off and in front of a camera.

Getting in front of a camera.

and one newspaper called it racy, which I think is probably accurate for a politician.

You know, in some of the pics you're wearing.

The first the first member of Parliament to ever do something.

Exactly.

In some of the pictures, you're just wearing budgie smugglers.

That's all it is.

So tell me about the decision to be photographed in this way.

I mean, you've mentioned that you wanted to be a part of this magazine which presents gay men, you know, healthy and beautiful.

And the pics are certainly that.

So I'm just wondering, was this like a big f-you to Mark Latham and or those who responded to his tweet by abusing you on the basis of your sexual orientation because they're sexy pics?

They are, you know, like they really are.

You know, they're not just pictures of a healthy, you know, man.

They're they're pretty sexy.

I mean, they are, you know, they're sexualized in a way.

This was very much done for me.

And it was done to, you know, share my story with with my community, with the community of gay men who probably still understand what it is like to deal with homophobia and to challenge that.

For me, I felt it was important to to show that I am, um, still going on a journey, but that I'm that I am trying to be stronger.

That rather than, um, being a victim of being targeted for my sexuality, I'm celebrating my sexuality.

I had this beautiful moment at Mardi Gras this year where I felt safe.

I felt safe because I was with a group of people.

Everyone was celebrating their sexuality and who they are.

And that's what I'm doing in these photos.

I'm celebrating my sexuality.

Yeah, um, I'm sharing my sexuality and I'm saying I'm.

I'm a proud gay man.

Um, and also I'm saying, you know, life isn't easy.

And I only got to I only got to this point.

This is the other key message.

I only got to this point where I, you know, had the confidence to get in front of a camera, take my clothes off because I asked people for help.

I asked psychologists for help.

I asked my husband for help.

Was this the first time I asked?

I asked my friends for help.

I asked my trainer for help so that what you were seeing in those photos is someone who has relied on a lot of people for the first time.

Um, who is taking people's advice for the first time and who has channeled that into something positive.

And that's a message that you wanted to give people to accept help.

Is that something?

Is that something you really struggled with your whole life?

Totally, because I'm like that.

A lot of people.

Are like, I have through this, this whole period of time, I've learned that asking someone for help is not a weakness.

It is respect for other people's strengths.

And at a time where I was not feeling strong, there were a lot of people who I relied on.

Well, I have to ask you what it's like now or over the last two years to bump into Mark Latham in the New South Wales Parliament building, because I think about this a lot.

I told you before we started recording that this, uh, this ordeal is something I've been following the whole time with great interest.

And in part it's because it's so it's bananas in the sense that in most workplaces, if a person defamed someone they worked with and that led to abuse, they would arguably be fired, right?

So what happened?

Like, what is that like?

I remember the first day of Parliament was horrible for the 58th Parliament because the media coverage was Greenwich and Latham come face to face.

Um, and I obviously wanted to just to avoid the person completely and still do.

I mean, it won't surprise people to know we travel in different circles.

I got.

That.

Um, I work extremely hard when I'm in the building.

Um, I am, you know, minority government is also a great workout.

I counted about 12,000 steps just within New South Wales Parliament last Thursday.

Up and down those stairs, in and out of ministers offices.

Um.

Uh, this is this is where I have to alert the listeners or anybody or the viewers.

If anyone's seen the photo shoot, it takes a lot more than 12,000 steps.

Yeah, sure.

To look like that in front of the camera.

It's.

It's two workouts daily.

Yeah.

People.

Yeah.

Um, so, yeah, we, we travel in different circles.

Yeah.

Okay.

So is there a fear though, like, because I would I mean, I try to I.

I will see him.

I don't feel great when I see him.

Yeah.

But I don't think I'm also the only person in the building who has that response.

But but you know, I know we're doing a podcast where we're talking about him.

Yes.

I actually don't like talking about him.

Yeah, right.

And so part of the also the shoot was to say, I really want to now shift to talking about something positive and something positive in terms of coming out of a really tough time relying on it's okay to rely on people, and it's good to have goals and it's good to share your story.

Um, and it's okay to let people know that you're weak and vulnerable.

And it's also okay, you know, to celebrate your sexuality.

So I know there's lots of messages in, you know, in something, but I'm really grateful to DNA.

Andrew Potts, the journalist, Andrew Cray, the editor, Christian Scott, the photographer.

I think they really they really captured it really well.

And it's a really long feature in which you really do get to tell your story.

Um, I'm going to have to apologise to you, Alex.

I do have one more question, because you are still suing Mark Latham in another matter.

So I do want to ask you this.

It's in the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal, and this is for alleged homosexual vilification and sexual harassment in the workplace.

Uh, so why bring this case, which is separate to the defamation case, you know, what are you hoping to achieve with that?

Well, Mr.

Latham had attacked me on multiple grounds.

One in the defamation he had, you know, um, uh, he had exposed me to contempt and ridicule.

He, you know, had had had attacked me, I believe, in relation to how I do my job.

That's defamation.

As in, you feel like he.

That was.

That made you seem unfit for your.

Job.

That's defamation.

In terms of my workplace, I would argue that how he has engaged not only in that tweet, but subsequently for the past two years in any other workplace, I believe that would be considered workplace sexual harassment.

In the New South Wales Anti-Discrimination act, the New South Wales Parliament is considered to be a workplace.

It's specifically mentioned, so it's important that those laws are used and then homosexual vilification, you know, he has he has targeted me because of my sexuality.

It has resulted in the incitement of other people to target me.

And, you know, this, this is my avenue for justice.

You know, a, you know, a quirk of all of this is the homosexual vilification laws which I'm using were actually created by my predecessor, Clover Moore, when she was in New South Wales Parliament.

So there's a nice connection.

And your.

Political mentor.

Exactly.

My political mentor and a good connection for Clover's amazing work.

Well, I really wanted to ask you about this because I'm wondering whether you think our laws actually need to be changed to further protect politicians or people who work in government from their own colleagues.

Because for those listeners who, like me, were sort of previously unaware of the current bar of what it takes to actually get an MP to be removed, as I understand it, it's if they're a bankrupt or if they've been found guilty of a crime that's been punishable by five years in jail or more.

And that's why you're in this, I would argue, quite strange sort of situation.

Um, and part of me understands it.

Okay.

MPs are voted in by by the people, so we can't just toss them out.

Um, you know, really easily.

But do you think our laws actually need to be changed to perhaps lower the bar?

Look, I think fundamentally in a democracy, if you do elect people to parliament segment of the public has said this party or this this person, we want them to represent us for this term.

Um, there's a couple more questions here.

So if the person is breaking the law in the office, if they are acting corruptly, um, yes.

We need to make sure that laws are are strong enough there.

I would note that Mr.

Latham got elected as a member of a party named after Pauline Hanson.

He has since left the party that he was elected under.

I think there's a big question there as to whether people should be able to stay in Parliament if they leave the party they got elected through.

And that would be a massive change, right?

Like, is that something you're advocating for?

I think it's something that we need to look at.

Okay.

Um, because when it comes to the upper house, you're not actually voting for an individual.

You're voting for a party or a group of independents is how the structure works.

Um, but what I am able to do is I am able to use laws.

And I am fortunate that I am, you know, a fairly privileged person with access to resources.

So I have been able to take these proceedings, and it's important for me to do that.

It's important for me to also create these precedents, make sure that our laws are fit for purpose.

Because yes, it is horrible what I have experienced.

But the sad truth is that's the experience of LGBTQ GQ people, especially trans and gender diverse people right across New South Wales.

And often the younger they are, the harder the attacks.

So it's made me really understand how tough it is out there for the community.

I'm in the privileged position where I can actually take this action, where the police will take my complaints really seriously.

Um, so I want to make sure that our laws are also there to protect others.

Um, and it's it's really encouraged me to advocate for greater access to legal services, greater funding for legal centres.

A focus on an LGBTQ legal service like the Inner City Law Centre is advocating for.

Um, there's a lot more that needs to be done, but I'm also doing this as a bit of a wake up call to the community.

It's like, yeah, it's 2025.

Yes, we won the yes vote in 2017.

Overwhelmingly.

You were a big part of.

Yeah, but we're still getting the hate.

Um, and there's new forms of hate and it's still coming at us and we just can't take it.

My mum always believes the best defense is a good offense.

Um, so just, you know, if I was to have sat back, like I often, I often have questioned based on the impact that the past two and a half years has had on me, my husband, um, whether I should have taken this action.

But then I asked myself the question, well, what if I didn't?

What message is that sending and what door is that opening for further abuse?

So I'm I'm very mindful of the position I'm in and the mandate that that really urges me to fulfill to always look after my community, um, and to always stand up for myself against people who are attacking me based on my sexuality.

Well, Alex, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

And just a note, as we've mentioned, Mark Latham is appealing the Federal Court defamation case.

But we should also add that he's also contesting the case against him in the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

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I'm Samantha Selinger.

Morris, thanks for listening.