This girl is absolutely amazing.

She's got to come back from America's sex top model.

I said this girl, and.

My staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about that girl.

So what's different about that girl?

In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next top model history.

I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I was born female.

Some people might say that I'm a transgender, some people might say transsexuals.

Personally, I prefer born on a wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on the outside, but everything else about me was female.

Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM.

For a lot of viewers, this was their first time seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so openly about their identity.

Tell me about when you knew that you were a girl as long as I can remember, It's not something I've chose.

This is who always been.

And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick.

So let's talk about surgery.

Are you pre top TRANSGENDERO?

Pre op?

And do you want to have the surgery one day?

If I could have it?

Right?

Nown on?

What Isis had a hell of a story.

On cycle ten, the models did a shoot where they were supposed to serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets, but make it fashion.

A and TM used actual people experiencing homelessness.

It's extras.

In the shute, Isis was living at the shelter.

A ANDTM partnered with you were.

One of the girls from the shelter who participated in our shoot in the background as an extra.

Let's face it, there's a reason you're here because you know how to give me catoul and yes, there we go.

It blew me away.

She slay better than some of the actual A and TM models, So Tyra cast her on the next season, cycle eleven.

You know she loves her at Cinderella Story and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she had to face some evil stepsisters.

So Isis.

I thought she looked little manly, like I have small boobs too, but her boobs she has no boobs.

So I told her to come over here.

We're like, come here.

You know you're part of the any bitty committee, So y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want to figure me out.

During the audition, Isis was minding her business when a group of girls called her over to ask why her boobs were so small?

Wait to tap dance around the question, so true.

Are you physically.

Without wanting on of What started out is caddy curiosity quickly turned mean spirited and bigoted.

My mind was like, what girl?

How'd you Ain't this supposed to be a girl competition?

How did you get through the door?

Like you up?

If I have get along with Isis, I will, But then again, if it comes between me and my goal, I'll stop.

Let man write out of the competition.

And this was just during the auditions.

Once Isis made it into the house, things got worse.

I'm not gonna lie me uncomfortable as hell.

Olena brings me out that when she got something else different down there than me.

I could think the thing about Isis so is Like I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable, like Henry, Henry un comfortable, but really I'm not.

Sometimes people have a more view of transition.

Yeah, like I always felt I'm a.

Like time of a small town.

Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you hell yeah?

You were growing back in a small town.

You was shot.

But not everyone was terrible.

There were a few girls who were welcoming and supportive of Isis.

Now that person shot I mean before this competition is going to bear gosh mad and is your spirit and how much she wants to be for Isis to be so brave and so secure with who she is and being able to not let anything bother her.

It's very commendable.

Isis made a few friends, and she found girls she could trust with her most private moments.

Isis had just started transitioning before cycle eleven.

She was new to taking hormone injections.

She didn't want to do it alone, so she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her company.

In order to keep up my transition, I have to take hormonal injections.

Are you heard of needles?

Gnia tell Annalie she's somebody who's really cool.

So I saw her and I asked her was.

She kind of helped distract me while I'm giving myself the injection.

They can make superfaces for you.

I'm nky, I knew I mean chicken impression.

She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier for me.

Now I'm starting to get like Nausha's damn.

It's something that means so much to her and to share that with there was quite a personal moment.

I thought.

I took it as a huge compliment that you asked me to be there, so thank you.

It looked like a sweet moment.

Years after A and tum Annalie came out as non binary.

Today they go by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was barely any public conversation about trans identity.

When there was, trans people were the butt of the joke or met with fear and disdain.

Seeing ices take our hormone injection on camera was groundbreaking.

Producers presented isis in a way that humanized her struggle.

The audience saw the ridicule she faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication to transitioning.

It sent the message that trans people aren't confused about their gender.

They're people who are willing to go to great lengths to affirm their gender.

It was a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television, and it's a moment that seared into the memory of a lot of queer people.

It might be hard to remember these days, but A and TM was actually a pioneer in queer representation.

In two thousand and five the queer feminist website after Ellen called A and TM the queerest place in primetime.

But the problem was those groundbreaking moments often came at the expense of the queer contestants themselves, Like that sweet moment where Isis took her hormone shot.

She says she didn't want to do it.

According to Isis and TM producers deceived her into doing it on camera.

Want to be on some.

Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

I'm Rigid Armstrong.

America's Next Top Model stands out as a pioneer in LGBTQ representation, But like everything with this show, the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part because A and TIM was always thinking about the story, not necessarily the contestants.

The impact of the decision to cast Isis King can't be measured.

It was pivotal for so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of people like them.

Isis was a symbol of what's possible.

But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A ANDTM was trying to make her a spectacle.

When A and TM went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a gender fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream.

He challenged the idea that male models must be overtly masculine, and he had to because the judges constantly chastised him for being too feminine.

But A and TM is also the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay Manuel Nole, Marin, j Alexander or Miss Jay and later Andre Leon Tally and law Roach.

It's a show that featured an openly lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted her loving relationship.

It's a show that featured queer and gender fluid contestants from the beginning until the end.

So on this episode, we're going to take a look at everything A and TM got right and wrong when it comes to gender and sexual identity.

We'll explore how they broke barriers and changed the world while harming the very contestants they were changing the world for.

Hi might go to school at Wesleyan University, which is in Connecticut.

We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named Kim Stoles just entered the competition.

She's rocking a v Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar popped very preppy very two thousand and five.

At this point, you've heard me say this a lot because we're talking about a modeling show and everyone's pretty.

But Kim was gorgeous when it came to her face card.

She was a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think white people mean when they say that her mom was a high fashion model in the eighties.

That's probably where she got her looks from.

Kim had a short, dark brown pixie cut in doe green eyes.

Her haircut combined with her cutesy face kind of made her look like a baby doll.

But something about Kim made her stand out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't just her beauty.

To be honest with you, like, I think I can bring something different to modeling, and I've got a little bit more of a I don't want to say masculine, but I'm as well mas killing luck whatever who I want to be out like, I'm gay and I am I'm really proud of it.

I think this a certain thing of being proud, like I'm black and proud, you know what I mean.

But I'm not like walking down the red carpet.

I'm right, I'm an pro.

You know, one thing about Tyra Banks, She's gonna make a moment about herself.

I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the red car and like try to kiss girls on the way.

You know, It's like not what I'm gonna do.

Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on the show.

We talked about ebonye Haight from cycle one, Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are other models who came out after the show.

I will say this about A and TM after cycle one.

They rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality.

Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance.

So unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay.

In fact, several of them seemed quite curious.

Kim even had a little fleeing in the house with another model, despite Kim having a girlfriend.

Are you are you full on lesbian?

I mean you're not by or I only did girls.

Yeah, a lot of these girls, I don't know anyone like who is gay and like it's like kind of exciting for them.

But I mean, I miss my girlfriend from home, and like I'm in like an open relationship, but I don't plan on acting on that.

She definitely acted on it.

We're oven right now and she can make out the until she wants.

I don't care as long as like she wants to pens I get back.

Yeah, that was probably ridiculous.

Hopefully's ridiculous because I'm ring hit on its crazy.

I'll hang out with you, Kim.

Whatever.

Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring out her gender expression.

This was two thousand and five, before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted.

With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on.

It was what they saw as her lack of femininity.

On the first runway of the season, the models had to do their own makeup.

Kim had never worn makeup.

The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to walk down this oddly shaped runway.

It was meant to be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the walks were not good, including Kim's.

Here's what the judges told her.

Next, we have Kim.

Oh no, oh, what was the neck?

I don't know.

You're trying to be something that you're not.

You're trying to be so sexy and so girly and you look like a man in a dress.

Girl.

You just need to go with your strong masculinity.

That's what brought you here.

They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup and then chastise her for trying to be girly.

But fine.

It was the first episode, and at least Tyra encouraged him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that encouragement did not last long.

Kim got a lot of mixed messages from the panel.

When she tried to be herself, she was told she was too masculine.

When she pushed herself to be more feminine, the judges seemed surprised and delighted.

Your film shocked the hell out of me.

This is so like beyond feminine.

It was amazing.

If you just showed me that, I wouldn't have known that was Kim.

She she likes a Ketchersmith, look at those paws.

One time.

Nigel Barker even made a joke out of calling her Tim instead of Kim.

I would never believe it's the same person.

And I think this is a turning point for Tim.

Tim, you sure did.

I saw that Kim by day, Tim by night.

I actually think she's hot, hot, hot, hot hot, which means I'm getting in touch with my androgynous feminine side.

Maybe I'm not really sure.

Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges when it came to her gender expression.

Kim, he learned, how did do all that feminine stuff?

But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I asked for you today.

I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is.

That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all the time.

I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because when men model, they're slightly feminine, right.

You can learn from looking at that as well as female magazines.

A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house to talk to the girls.

Jenny was queer and gender non conforming.

She talked to the models about finding their own lane in fashion.

My big story is that a minority, I am five foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos, and a gay model.

Kim theemed especially inspired.

It's really an important thing for me to see not conforming to just a generalized kind of woman.

I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell you guys that the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things.

Are you saying a tomboy?

And so I was wondering, like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like on the runway, I'm wondering how you reconcile or make like, you know, a dress like beautiful.

I take it as that's a piece of art that I'm going to wear.

There's always room for someone who's going to add flair to fashion.

Jenny's struggle is a lot like what I'm going through.

Now.

This gives me hope that I can get farther.

But even after that visit from Jenny'smezo and that pep talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim, which might seem odd for a show like A and TM.

When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central members of the cast, Mister and Miss j.

They later added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer.

They had several queer guest judges and Miss J was gender fluid before anybody was calling it that.

He was a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie.

One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss J being the one to criticize her gender expression.

The girls were asked to do their best signature runway walks for Miss J.

They were at a pool and for some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats and told them to make the hats a part of their walk.

When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was already prepared for the worst.

This to be real special because you are special.

I want to try to put my own personality into it, but also having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult for me.

It's a marionette for doctor strings.

Kim's walk was awkward.

She had on this afternoon tea outfit, but she was also trying to strut like a male model.

The church hat wasn't helping.

Campbell has an incredible face.

She should be able to do any really well, but unfortunately don't have five years.

I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into the walk.

I lost words usually have something to say.

I am really lost for words.

If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she should be the one.

I mean, are you kidding?

There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry.

People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist, makeup artist, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different.

These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different gender expression, but in two thousand and five, there was an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show, they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform to certain gender norms.

It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw when they competed on cycle sixteen.

When they were on A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although at the time they identified as being bisexual.

After the show, Room came out as non binary.

Here they are talking with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.

Quite a few have said that they were openly queer during filming, but.

I'm never made it on the show, it was brushed aside.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, especially like in that era of television, like you were allowed to be gay in a way that made sense to the people that were going to be watching it.

Like I'm pretty sure I talked about.

The gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on it and stuff.

But yes, I agree that they do tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and show support for.

A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience would understand.

Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline built around it, like Kim on cycle five.

Her entire character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian struggling to become feminine enough to model.

I don't want to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five.

For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described herself as masculine on a modeling competition for young women who may have been questioning their own sexuality.

Kim was an example of how to be out and proud.

Also, Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so called masculine lesbians are unattractive.

Kim talked about her struggle with gender norms and figuring where she fit in.

Seeing that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot of queer young people watching at home who may have been going through the same thing, but they saw that struggle play out because she was on a reality show that was pressuring her to be more feminine.

Fifteen seasons later, A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when the show went co ed, But according to him, at least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't learned much.

It's two feminine if we can tell them the same thing week off the week.

We'll get into that after the break.

The second that I understood that they were really trying to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish my whole persona and my whole identity to just one character trait and that is my gainness.

I definitely took those cues and I ran with it.

Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle twenty or two point zero as they were calling it.

It was the.

First guy girl season.

A and TM did three co ed cycles.

Corey was the first openly gay man on A and TM.

His presence on the show was an opportunity to explore a new trope.

Corey was there token gay guy.

He figured out what the show wanted from him during the auditions, and he decided to go along with it.

These men are nothing but eye candy to me.

It's psychological warfare.

Honey, comminance is key, Honey.

Anything you'll do, boo, do it with confidence.

I definitely took it and I ran with it.

I'm not going to say it didn't hurt.

Corey is probably the most clear eyed contestant I spoke with, maybe because he was on a later season.

It was twenty thirteen and A ANDTM had been running for ten years at this point.

He told me he had no illusions about how reality TV works.

He didn't think A ANDTM was going to make him a top model.

He auditioned for the show because he wanted exposure.

Corey wanted to be a star.

If I look back to twenty two year old Corey auditioning for America's Sexu Model, my mission at that point in time, it was very like vapid and hollow.

I just wanted to be famous, like I didn't care how.

I just wanted to do it.

Did I think that this was going to like make me into a supermodel like Bella and Gigi Headeed's status.

No, I don't think I was ever.

Delusional about that, to be honest with you.

But I did know that it was going to get my name out there.

I did know that I was in pursuit of a career in entertainment.

At the time, Corey was a musical theater actor performing in regional plays.

He thought getting on A and TM would help his entertainment career.

Plus, he'd been a huge Top Model fan growing.

Up when I was in middle school.

Oh my gosh, that was like my world.

I loved America's accept Model.

I was obsessed like doing like after school hangouts with girlfriends and like perching around the TV and getting ready for the next episode.

That was my life.

He idolized Tyra.

In fact, When Corey was bullied in high school, the other kids called him Tyra is in Tyra Banks, and it wasn't a compliment, but he took it as one.

Tira, you know, growing up, I was kind of like obsessed with her and her talk show and just enamored by her career trajectory and just everything that she stood for promoting body positivity, having opened the LGBTQI plus people on her talk show and not in a way that was kind of like demeaning.

I know, I've taken some shots at Tyro's talk show on this podcast, but Corey's right.

This was the time when talk shows were still doing surprise I'm really a man dating reveal segments, So in comparison, both Tyro's talk show and A and TM were progressive.

She would uplift them and hear their stories and advocate for them at a time where that wasn't really popular.

Corey also admired the queer representation he saw on A and TM.

It had been pivotal for him as a queer teenager.

I look back at Isis specifically, and I see this like warrior of truth.

And she went back and did the All Star cycle and slay that as well, and then you look at representatives like on the judges panel, like Miss J Alexander, who is just this like godess and just like who like free expression but you can't tell me nothing queer off the beaten path, visibly queer, but you can't tell me not.

Then by the time Corey auditioned for A and TM Jay Manuel and Miss J Alexander had been replaced.

There was an entirely new panel of judges.

Corey was disappointed.

He was looking forward to meeting the queer icon Miss Jay.

He felt Miss J would get him.

I wanted Misster Alexander to be on my judges panel.

I was missing that.

Slamboyant just like ooh, real, raw, unapologetic gay personality just there.

I missed it and I didn't get it.

And they tried to like half ass a version of that by having Brian Boy on our show.

But he tried not to let that get him down.

He was going to be on the show that he loved as a kid, a show that cast isis King and Miss J.

Corey went in expecting his queerness to be celebrated or at the very least accepted, so he was caught off guard.

At the first judging panel of the season.

Like, oh my gosh, you look very very feminine in this photo.

Come to think that you present very feminine, and you know what, you dressed very feminine.

You talk very feminine and femininely, like everything is feminine.

The first photo shoot of the season was a wedding shoe.

Corey was posing as the groom alongside one of the female models Smoke.

When I found out I was paired with Corey, I was scared because the most challenging part is.

Going to be, like Corey being masculine.

I just want to point out in this shoe there was a gay wedding, a lesbian wedding, a polygamy wedding, and one guy married a remote control so gender roles didn't seem that critical to the shoes.

But here's the feedback Corey got from one of the judges.

Corey, were you playing a guy or a woman in the shot?

I was playing a guy.

Okay, you're gonna have to work your stray guye a little more.

I agree with Kelly, you're not selling a complete palastamm in this fire.

I think this picture of you is absolutely beautiful.

I don't see an epic fail, smizing you're piercing the camera.

I'm gonna give you that was Tyr you heard at the end, and I will say.

By the time Corey competed on the show, Tyra seemed a bit more evolved.

She advocated for Corey in his femininity a lot on this season.

One of the newer judges brought in for the co ed season was a straight male model named Rob Evans.

Rob was rumored to be dating Tyra at this time, and when it came to Corey, he completely disagreed with his alleged lover.

I don't particularly like this far that much.

Was It's two feminine.

We've been tell him the same thing week after weekend.

He just gets.

Brainwashed by YouTube every single time.

Brain washed.

If he come into a place like presenting yourself the way you do, they will think you're the makeupartes.

Tyra and Kelly Catron, the other female judge on this season, didn't back down from Rob, and neither did Corey.

Depends on the friend, I'm coming at you as a male model.

I hear right now this and can I speak of this actually?

Please go on?

I really really love to work by androgeny when my passion for modeling, you know, developed, and when it actually sparked.

It's when I started seeing pictures of people you know, who were more intros AND's, And in the past few years more of that has been coming out to the forefront.

What's gonna happen?

Corey gave a heartfelt explanation that should have taken the attention off his so called lack of masculinity, but instead it made Rob Evans focus on it more.

For Rob, the barometer for how well Corey performed in a runway or photoshoot was how masculine he could be.

Choreer, I like this shout of you.

It's very dude.

If I didn't know any better, you pull off a due to me and good job, min.

I'm prony he is a dude.

You look like a man.

What shall I say?

No, he is a man?

Okay?

I think you look straight in this?

Yikes?

Is that meant to be a compliment?

Corey?

The thing about you always know how to sell what you were, and I that you have to tell you.

Look more money more.

It's just that's what you're delivering.

Good job, thanks, But it wasn't just Rob.

Corey also got it from photographers.

Oh, Corey, that's this gay halls, Corey, moose in quite a feminine right, and as a male model, you really have to appeal to men change.

You got to have a good right, right, he'd laws and strong.

Thank you beautiful, show me if your eyes.

Are on your eyes the job, Corey, that's masculine.

Your body looks great.

A god.

Does it look too girly though?

No, that does feel gurley.

I don't want you to look girly.

I want you to look like a man.

Mind you.

The last bit of tape you heard was from a photo shoot where Corey was supposed to be channeling Tyra's fierceness.

He had photos of Tyra printed on his nails.

Corey told me, even though he peeped that the show was going to make him their token gay guy, he didn't think he was going to be criticized for not being masculine enough.

Historically, the industry is more inclusive of queer men, and that might have to do with the fact that the fashion world is pretty much run by gay men.

So Corey told me he was blindsided by the feedback he got on A and TM and he didn't agree with it.

You're so feminine, Like they just wouldn't stop with that.

They were like, if you want to be a male model, you need to man up, mascot, like do all this bullshit.

Okay, I truthfully didn't know that that was coming.

Corey expected more from A and TM.

I'm not gonna say it didn't hurt.

I'm not going to say my emotions weren't real, okay, because they were.

I was at the time going through an entire identity crisis.

Today, Corey identifies as non binary and uses heat and day pronouns.

Back in twenty thirteen, when he was taping A and TM, he identified as a gay man.

You know, I knew that I was gay, but words like non binary and gender queer they didn't really exist at the time, and I was kind of like feeling in an other space in terms of like just my gender identity and being on a season of America's Next Up Model where gender is such.

A huge theme.

Yeah, that definitely preyed on my emotional state, my mental state.

It felt like my identity was being pried open.

He went on that show to be famous, but being on ANTM wasn't awakening for Corey.

That's a fighter flight moment when you're on a judges panel and you're being told you're too gay.

That's a fighter flight moment, and I think most people just want to shrink from that moment and like disappear in a puff of smoke.

But he didn't.

He pushed back when Rob Evans told him he was too feminine, and he continued to serve androgyny and femininity in the competition.

He was the second runner up on his season.

I'm proud to have been able to stand ten toes down and like have those conversations.

I was prompted.

To just like meet that moment, and that you know, that was the production team at whoever was pulling the strings behind the seeds who put me in that position, and the judges for saying all of the stupid things they said about my femininity about being queer.

That really teed up just like a beautiful educational moment.

And people got mad online too, and people were like, wait a minute, No, you shouldn't be criticizing him this way for these things, like he's a model, You're not going to be able to understand anything about his sexual orientation through a photograph.

Corey told me in a weird way, he's grateful to A and TM.

The show didn't make him a superstar, but it did help him find his purpose.

I was twenty two when we were filming that, Like, my frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed, and there I was in the center of such an important conversation.

At the time, I didn't know how big and important that was.

This was twenty thirteen when my cycle of America's Next Up Model aired.

We didn't even have marriage equality.

I was sparking so many conversations around the world about queer identity, LGBTQA plus inclusivity.

It was such a huge and impactful thing that was bigger than me, and it wasn't even what I was there for, but that was the thing that made it make sense for me, and I think that's what allowed me to come across as such like a strong person on the shop.

I really am proud of how I came across on the show.

If anybody remembers, I was pretty pretty fierce these days.

Corey is an LGBTQ advocate and educator.

This passion of mine to educate in this way was born out of the first time I ever had to publicly stand up for myself and speak truth to my experience as an LGBTQI plus person while being criticized for my queer identity on America's sexon Model.

After A and TM, Corey says he kept in contact with Tyra.

She's actually recommended him for a few jobs.

He told me he'll always have respect for her and the way she advocated for him on Cycle twenty.

But the choice of focus on his sexuality and gender expression was a missed opportunity for A and TM to do something transformative.

As viewers of these shows, our ideology is being shaped by what we see, even if it's on a subliminal level, even if we don't realize it.

You have so much power when you have a show like that.

Corey wishes A and TM treated his queerness like it was just another thing about him, instead of making it his entire storyline.

He thanks doing this could have normalized homosexuality for a lot of viewers.

That would have been so daring just to treat it like it was nothing.

Maybe then people watching would have had less of like a oh, like such a tense it's feeling around the idea that somebody loves differently expresses differently.

After the break, We're going to talk about Ices King.

For millions of Americans, she was probably the first trans woman they'd ever seen on television, but behind the scenes, she was being treated like a spectacle.

Isis King's inclusion on A and TM Cycle eleven not only sparked a huge conversation among the models on her season, it sparked a huge conversation in America.

Harris Tyra introducing Isis on her talk show.

Never in the history of America's Next Top Model has there ever been a finalist who was so controversial, so talked about, and so blogged about.

If you google her name and top Model together, you get more than four hundred thousand search results, almost a half a million search results.

I think you guys know who I'm talking about.

Isis struck her out?

Is The fifth presence on ANTM was polarizing.

There were a lot of people who didn't think she belonged on the show, and they were pretty nasty about it.

Here's a Fox News segment about Isis.

She wants to be America's next Top Model, but there's a hitch on this one that she actually used to be he and I think still is.

She tells or he tells US magazine that.

She identifies herself as a woman born physically male.

She's told you, guys, now, my cards were dealt differently.

Boy, that's an understatement.

Fox later apologized after Glad reached out and told them it was offensive, but that transphobic attitude was reflected in the Model House.

Sharon Brown, who you heard from a few episodes ago, was on Cycle eleven with Isis.

She's the model who was sent home in the first elimination after bullying Isis.

Sharon told me the bullying we saw her do was a bit of a setup by the producers, but after Sharon left, things got uglier and much more pointed.

I generally wouldn't hang out with characters like Alino, Sheena or Isis because she's a transgender.

Cannot push Isis, and I wasn't appreciated.

On Cycle eleven.

There were a few small town Southern contestants who were uncomfortable with Isis being in the competition, and they would say really nasty and even violent things about Isis behind her back.

Sometimes people have a more view of transitions.

Yeah, Like I always felt I'm.

A like time of a small town Hell yeah, we will Yeah, hell, yeah.

You were growing back in a small town.

You was shot.

I feel like I do very well in the real world of modeling.

I just don't see Isis being booked because the way her body is now still very manly, like the hand and the feet and the waste.

I think it's about time for Isis to go home.

Wild's just not for her.

While those girls were whispering about Isis, she was in another room talking with other contestants about the way she was being treated.

A lot of women found are intimidated.

Because you do girl better than most girls.

Yeah, because I'm sorryful by myself.

I don't try and think about whether I think it's right or wrong what you're doing, because it's not my choice to make for you.

Isis Is always gonna have people talking about her, and she needs to just, you know, keep strong.

Whatever I think, whatever you want.

But when I'm for one, when I'm on that run way, what do you want to say?

You can't tell me, not fans.

I'm here for the long.

Run and you're one of us, Isizis.

This was Isis's running storyline.

A girl or group of girls were mean and hateful to her.

Isis stood up to her bullies, rolls above it and moved on to the next round until she was eliminated on episode five.

In later interviews, Isis said the bullying and bigotry she faced on A and TM was about the same as what she experienced in the real world at that time.

Outside of having to defend herself against a house full of bigots over and over, Isis got a pretty good at it.

She wasn't underdog who proved her bullies wrong.

But what we didn't see was how the production team pushed Isis's boundaries and set her up.

Remember that cute scene where she took her hormone shot while another contestant helped distract her.

She's somebody who's really cool.

So I saw her and I asked her, was she kind of helped distract me while I'm giving myself the injection.

It's something that means so much to her, and to share that with there was quite a personal moment.

I thought.

I took it as a huge compliment that you asked me to be there, so thank you.

In the past few years, Isis opened up about the real story behind this trailblazing moment.

She says production manipulated her.

Here She is talking to j Manuel in his Jchat series.

At the time, I was taking hormone injections, but right before I left to do the show, I had to give myself a hormone shot.

I saw blood and I fainted.

So two weeks later, when I had to do my next shot, I thanked it again.

So I was in a process of figuring out how to switch from shots to pills because I just couldn't handle it when I went on the show.

So when I went on the show, I knew that it's a chance I could faint, and I was still so new to transitioning.

I didn't want to do that on camera.

So I asked them, Hey, when we do our next photoshoot, can the medic administer.

My shot because we have medics on set.

Yeah, I said, of course, of course photoshoot came around.

Oh no, the medic can't do it today.

I said.

Said the next day, when they were shooting, she was told the same thing, the medic couldn't do it.

She says this went on for days.

I said started to get worried.

She was new to transitioning and didn't know what would happen if she missed a hormone shot, she said.

After a few days, she got a call on the production phone.

That's the house phone the producers use when they want to relay a message to the contestants off camera.

They call up, Hey, so the medic won't be able to do your shot.

And I was like, what do you mean, no, medic can't do my shot?

Like a week ago, there was gonna do my shot, Like I need to do it.

They said, yeah, you have to do your shot.

Bring one of the girls to be in there with you so you don't think And I was just like, wow, see, I did not know that.

You have never told me that ANTIM had a rule about filming.

If more than one girl was in the shower or bathroom at the same time, the camera was allowed to be in there too.

The producers could have stayed with Isis while she took her shot off camera to make sure she didn't pass out and to call the medic if she did, but instead they told her to take another contestant with her to the bathroom.

So I honestly didn't want to do it on camera, one because I was scared I was gonna faint, and then two, I just don't want to do it on a fuck a camera.

Me being trans in itself, that's enough of an impact.

I don't need to do a hormone shot on camera.

I did not know the level of manipulation.

Am I going to say it surprises me?

No?

Uh, that I will say there was a lot of that.

Maybe Tyra and Ken Mack thought having this moment would be groundbreaking and powerful.

According to j Manguel, they fought for it to air.

I have to give props to Tyra Ken Mock the producers.

They really fought for this moment with the network.

Maybe Tyra and Ken knew it would make great TV, get people talking, and bring in a lot of viewers, and they were right.

But telling Isis she could have the medic administer her hormone shot and then pulling the rug from under her at the last moment was wrong.

If they wanted to make this a part of her storyline, she should have been the first person to sign off on it, not to mention it put her health at risk.

Isis fainted at the sight of blood, and she'd already passed out twice trying to self administer her hormone shot.

Auntiem turned what should have been a private moment into rating spot her and it wasn't the last time they tried to turn her experience into a spectacle.

Isis said during her season, the producers removed the door from the bathroom and replace it with a curtain.

Isis doesn't know if they did it because of her or two of the other models who would sneak in the bathroom and have off camera conversations, but either way it made Isis extremely uncomfortable.

Here she is talking to Oliver Twist about it on his YouTube channel.

So at one point they took the doors off the bathrooms and it was just like a little curtain air but when you walk by it blows, and I was just like, okay, I have these a bathroom.

At the time, I was just learning how to like take myself and I was just learning these things, and I was just like, I was like, why would they do that?

Like when you walk by it, you know, the breeze make the curtain move, and I'm just like, somebody, calzy, you can't not like you can open the curtain and see me using a bathroom or be taking a shower.

The showers our clear glass, and in my head, like that was one of the most terrifying things.

You know, I wasn't I didn't have a connection with my body in that sense, so I didn't want anybody to see me.

And I was just like, I'm going to have a moment.

By moment, Isis means she was afraid her body would be exposed on camera.

Remember, part of the contract, producers could use footage of contestants clothed or naked, whether they knew they were being taped or not.

So Isis got really conscious of when and where she would get dressed.

So usually try to shower or do stuff at certain times, or if I know I was going to do something like outside the show, I was just like, let me wait until the girls are loading up, because I just don't want to have a moment where I'm trying to do something to make myself feel comfortable and somebody walk in.

So I really hated that they took the doors off, and they worded it like it was because the girls they were going to shower to talk, because then you know, and there you couldn't have a micro on.

But they didn't want us to really be around each other without mics.

So when a door orst came off the hinges, I would say that was a moment for me when I was just like, that's a little weird, especially you know, for me, I don't want a special privilege, but I at least want some type of privacy.

So whenever I even I took a shower, I would put my towel over the top of the shower the glass, and I would just take a shower in that block, so at least as somebody did walk in, they wouldn't see me.

It's like little things that people didn't think about or wouldn't think about.

Antium wanted to bring a trans model into the competition.

They wanted the attention her presence would bring to the show.

They maybe even wanted to spark a conversation in normalized trans identity, but they didn't facilitate a situation where Isis could feel comfortable.

They prioritize the story and the ratings over the actual person.

After Isis was eliminated, Tyra brought her on her talk show to talk about being trans.

Isis's mom came with her and talked about her own journey to accepting her daughter.

Tyra even brought one of the bullies you heard in the tape earlier.

Have this weird debate.

The girl was trying to justify her right to disagree with Isis even existing.

At the end of the segment, Tyra brought out the leading gender affirming surgeon in the country, doctor Marcy Bowers.

The surgeon told Isis she wanted to do her gender affirming surgery and she was going to arrange for it to be paid so Isis didn't have to come up with the twenty five to thirty thousand dollars herself.

You have some news for Isis.

What news do you have for Isis?

Well, I just want to say your story really touches my heart, and I saw you actually first on MSNBC.

I think, isn't it is that right?

But I can relate to you, and I know what difference that surgery can make in your life and improve things for the better.

So what I want to do is evaluate you for the processes of going through the surgery, and if I can get the money together, i'd like you to come out, assuming you want me to do your surgery.

I want to do this for you.

Would you say this is not happening, This is not happening.

How do you feel it.

Doesn't feel like it's like I'm about to wake up.

Yeah, I'm about the wake up.

Thank you, You're welcome.

For Tyra, this was a story that kept on giving.

After her surgery, Tyra brought Isis, her mother, and the surgeon back on her show to talk about the whole process, and in my opinion, Tyra and the surgeon got a little too personal.

Now I know, there's something called dilating that that isis Is supposed to be doing.

Explained dilating, Well, patients that have gone from male to female need to keep the vagina open.

Because Isis's boyfriend, Desmond join them on stage for this segment.

So is she dilating to be able to have sex?

Yeah?

What it is to keep the vagina open and to allow potentially some action.

So Desmond, are you over there going?

Come on?

Baby?

You got to dilate.

There's a weird dynamic that can creep into conversations about trans people.

I'm talking about the tendency for people to ask really invasive personal questions that are frankly none of their business.

The questions are usually about sex, bodily functions, and private body parts, questions people usually shy away from.

Sometimes it's from genuine curiosity and a desire to understand.

And there are some people who feel like education is the first step to normalization and acceptance.

But a lot of times the line of questioning is just voyeuristic.

Non trans people are obsessed with trans people's bodies.

I don't know what Tyra was trying to accomplish here.

It was the twenty tens and conversations like these weren't exactly mainstream.

But there's something about watching these segments today that feels icky, like Tyra was trying to make Isis a sideshow act.

I have a lot of complicated feelings about isis is time on A and TM.

I know it was groundbreaking, but the way Tyra and A ANDTM went about presenting ISIS seems wrong.

I also know I have the benefit of thinking about this almost twenty years after it aired.

Isis talked about this dynamic in an interview with Logo.

We look at things in a different lens than now.

So when people say, oh, this shouldn't treated you like that, it make me feel some type of way because I didn't have that support back then.

I didn't have people come into my rescue.

I just think that it's really easy to point fingers now.

I mean, obviously the stuff was wrong, but we're in a different era and we were obviously different people.

We're way more I think as a as a people way more sensitive to problematic shit.

So it's just hard to look at something back then because if you didn't say nothing about it back then, I don't say nothing now because y'all, Dave Showan wasn't coming to my rescue.

I was in this hell.

I love to dress.

Nobody didn't come and throw me no life wrath did?

I mean?

Draam Isis seems to have mixed feelings about Tyra and A and TM today and the interviews you heard earlier, you can tell she was clearly uncomfortable with the behind the scenes stunts A and TM pulled, but she also seems grateful to Tyra and the show for the opportunity.

I mean, Tyra helped her get gender affirming surgery.

Isis also says the exposures she got from A and TM changed her life.

I would say, out of most of the girls, I was just like one of the ones that benefited the most from the show.

Isis is a queer icon.

She's one of the most famous trans people in America.

She's an activist, speaker, and actress.

But being on the show didn't just change her life, it changed the lives of so many queer people watching her.

I'm not exaggerating when I say seeing Isis on TV was a lifeline.

Multiple viewers have reached out to Isis to tell her what her representation on A and TM meant to them.

A month or two after I got eliminated, this young gay kid sent me a message and said I was about to commit suicide and seeing your story helped me realize there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

And I remember crying and being like, oh snop, Like this is so much bigger than just my moment.

And she's still inspiring a new generation of queer viewers who are just discovering A and TM.

I don't know if she would have accomplished all this without the show, or if her casting would have had such a huge impact had top Model decided to do it later when people were more comfortable with transidentity.

But being a pioneer often comes with a cost.

And while I can say A and TM played a pivotal role in changing attitudes towards queer people in pop culture, it seems like the contestants are the ones who bore that cost.

They got the hate messages, they had to defend themselves against their castmates, they had to explain their identity to the judges and face criticism for just being them.

With all that in mind, I asked Corey Wade what he thinks A and TM's legacy is when it comes to queer representation.

I do think they found some really, really amazing queer representatives on that show who, just like I believe I did, met those moments with grace.

I just think we need to give Isis her flowers.

I'm so grateful that people like this exist and have been uplifted to this platform.

There's a lot of beauty in what America's Next Time Model has done.

For all its failings.

In many ways, this was one thing A and TM got right, but for contestants like Corey, it's still complicated.

I feel so many different ways about this.

I'm proud, but I'm angry, but I understand.

I'm angry, but I'm grateful.

On the next episode, we finally tackle one of America's Next Top models biggest sins.

We're going to talk about the body shaming and mixed messages about eating disorders that became synonymous with the show.

She's huge, She's not going to be a top mom.

My biggest problem is the body shape.

I thank you.

I wouldn't want to see her in the swimsuit.

You gotta work on the side.

Her body is just doing what's all.

It's all going passhaped.

That is what you're finis.

We reached out to Tyra Banks and A and TM executive producer Ken Mock so they could provide more perspective on isis King's time on A and TM and Tyra's talk show and what we've discussed on this episode, but we did not hear back from them before airing this episode.

Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

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The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcast.

The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong.

Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.

Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcy, and Curry Richmond.

Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.

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Audio editing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio, Andrew Callaway and Tanner Robbins.

The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme was composed by Oliver Bains.

Music library provided by my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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