Hey, y'all, it's Bridget.

Before we start this episode, I want to give you a headsup that this one will be all about A and TM's legacy of body shaming.

We'll be playing old clips from A and TM that are hard to hear.

We'll also be talking candidly about the experiences of body dysmorphia and disordered eating.

So if you have a history or are currently struggling with those kinds of things, just be mindful with this one.

All right, let's do it.

I was starting to watch Top Model with my mom season one.

I was turned off.

Myself, and I couldn't even remember that we did this because I've evolved even inside of Top Model over the years.

Back in twenty twenty, when new viewers were discovering Top Model while old ones were revisiting, Tyra Banks decided to take a walk down memory Lane herself and she was just as appalled as us.

So.

Season one, we had a weights and measures section of the show where the girls height were measured and weight was measured.

It is normal in the modeling industry, that's what is done.

So we were trying to be as realistic in the modeling industry, not trying to embarrass anybody.

It's just what it's done.

So we're pulling back the curtain.

Back in the day, nobody complained about it, but as we all evolved twenty years later, people like, what the hell, including me, including the creator of the show.

I looked at it and I was like, it just made me sick.

While it is interesting to see Tyra taking accountability for the rampant body shaming that happened on A and TM, she seems to have selective memory.

For one.

The weigh ends continued until cycle four.

Miss Jay is here to take our measurements.

It's reading to kind of do weights and measures.

See who is torn and who's considered sad, who thinks she's fat.

I've gained ten pounds one eight, trust me, and then of this I'll lose it.

She is just a little bit bigger than the rest of us for the.

Crime of being five nine and one hundred and thirty eight pounds.

Brita was sent home in the first elimination of season four.

At deliberation, Nigel Barker said she was carrying too much weight.

Season after season A and TM picked up part and scrutinized every inch of their contestants' bodies and weights.

She's huge.

She's not going to be a top model.

She needs to lose five to two.

They're all sad.

It's one of things.

What are you eating?

Her body is just doing what's home.

It's all going pash it.

That's what you're finding.

Say, Yeah, you gotta work on the side.

Watch the giant next to us.

If the body could just slim down one hundred and fifty pounds, that would be good.

Then she'd be thirty pounds, that would be better.

America's Top Model is not a plus size model.

I'm sorry, and that was just the tip of the iceberg.

These days, Tyra Banks likes to declare that she was an early champion of body positivity, but she created and hosted a show that was one of the biggest body shaming offenders of our generation.

Want to beyond, Some.

Want to beyond some.

To be on show.

Welcome to the curse of America's Next Top Model.

I'm Bridget Armstrong.

In the first seasons of A and TM, they weighed the contestants and shamed them for having the nerve to weigh more than one hundred and thirty pounds.

They cast women with eating disorders and told them they were too hippie, too flabby, and too fat.

They cast teenagers and twenty somethings who came to the show with confidence and left with body dysmorphia.

ANTM brought on plus size models under the banner of inclusivity in changing the endush then they used those very models to prove that there was no place for them in that fat phobic industry.

The show took one of the most toxic parts of the fashion world and amplified it for our entertainment, and as a result, they taught an entire generation of young women how to hate their bodies.

So on this episode, we're going to dive into one of A and TM's biggest sins.

At its peak, America's Next Top Model was drawing seven million viewers per episode, and a large portion of that audience was young women between the ages of eighteen and thirty five.

And if you're like me, you probably started watching in high school.

We were bombarded with body shaming before we even knew what that meant, before a lot of us even had a chance to develop a healthy self image.

It's hard to really quantify the negative impact A and TM had on us the.

Viewers before the models on the show.

It's really clear.

And I was a little chevy.

So I got a trainer and I I lost fifty pounds.

I wanted to start modeling, and the market that I wanted to be in was high fashion, and I know I couldn't fit into the clothes that the designers would want if I was the size that I used to be.

That's Yoana House, the winner of Cycle two.

Before auditioning for A and TM, ya Wanna lost fifty pounds.

She did it because she wanted to be in an industry that didn't see plus sized models as high fashion.

Ya Wanna talked about her weight loss with the judges and other contestants on the first episode, and she told me A and T and producers took that and ran with it.

I'd always wanted to model, but my body wasn't in the form to model.

I was a little nervous weighing in.

I lost some weight before I came you Wanna.

It's very conscious of her image.

The issue with her losing all this weight like she wasn't secure with in her own skin.

Here's Yuana today.

I shared something about myself, but I didn't know that it would be played all the time, like it felt like that was like a tagline, or like it was a storyline that had to be constantly reiterated and repeated when it was just mentioned, and I felt like the show wouldn't let it go.

Like every other episode it would come up.

A and TM made Youana's weight loss the focus of her story.

They wanted her to be the ugly duckling turned swan who didn't know how beautiful she was when she had conflict with other girls in the house.

A ANDTM made it seem like she was insecure about her body or jealous of those girls, which Johanna says wasn't true.

I think they really tried to portray that maybe I wasn't confident, and I was confident.

I just got really uncomfortable constantly talking about it.

It just seemed like it was like a broken record.

That confidence didn't last long on an A ANDTM set.

Yoanna, her place is fantastic, but you know, her body could do it a little bit of.

Work, Joanna.

It Wanna certainly amazes me.

She's got rolls of skin that hang over her jeans and in this nude, I don't see it.

She looks like she's got a butt, which is a miracle because quite frankly, I've never seen it before.

My biggest problem is her body shape.

I think you know, I wouldn't want to see her in a swimsuit.

It's kind of like a narcissistic relationship.

They build you up, build you up, and then they gaslight you.

They turn it around and make you feel devalued, and then they build you up again.

So you're kind of like this yo yo of self esteem.

You're like, I've finally gotten to where I needed to be.

Now they're saying I'm not good enough.

I never had an eating disorder.

All of those challenges came after the show.

Yoanna came into a and TM with confidence about her body, and she left with the top model title and an eating disorder to match.

A lot of what the judges said about Juanna's body was done during deliberation, so she saw their comments about her on national television at the same time as millions of viewers.

The photo that won y.

Want to competition is her helmet shot.

You've heard me mention it before.

It's a close up on her face.

She's wearing a helmet with all her hair pulled back and she's looking straight into the camera.

The judges always had great things to say about her face, but when.

It came to her body, they were cruel.

Even though she won the whole competition, she didn't feel like she was good enough.

After Yohana left the show, she decided to prove that she was more than just a face.

I remember watching the show and being so uncomfortable and a tank top having it zoomed in, so I'm like, okay, they're saying I look like a boy.

Producers had a habit of zooming in on Youana's body.

They would edit those zoomed in shots while the judges were picking apart her body to really drive on the point.

It was humiliating.

So that kind of pushed me to also get breast in plants.

Yoana became obsessed with fixing her body, making sure she was always the quote unquote perfect weight.

After having a meal, she would choose to walk miles instead of taking the subway so she could earn the calories.

She started spending more and more time at the gym.

Every time she looked in the mirror, she saw a new flaw.

She stressed over every morsel of food, she ate all classic signs of disordered eating and body dysmorphia.

It just caused me so much self loathing and actually created a body dysmorphia.

I had a lot of struggle, so I'm gonna get emotional.

I had a lot, a lot of problems within myself in my mind that I created an anxiety disorder with exercise.

I don't think I've really gotten over it until recently.

In the last I want to say seven to eight ten years.

It took a really long time.

It's the same thing does Sampson from Cycle one went through.

On episode two of this podcast, we talked about the body shaming she experienced.

Gazelle was eighteen when she went on the show.

She was a dancer and she liked her body.

But when she watched her season of A and TM Air Live, she heard Tyra say she had a wide ass.

I didn't even hear her say that to my face.

I saw it on the show.

So clearly I'm not good enough.

Clearly I can't be a model.

So how do I get rid of this white ass?

Oh?

Maybe I should stop eating.

And then when I eat too much in one setting because I get so hungry, I'll devour it in one plate.

Oh now I feel guilty.

How about I go throw that up now.

It took Yawana more than a decade to heal from the body shaming she experienced on A and TM.

Gazelle still carries the cars to this day.

I obsess over food.

Either I'm binging it and I just eat whatever I want, like and then I'm like guilt ridden, or I'm like extreme fad dieting on like juicing, or you know, if I have a photo shoot coming up, I'll go like a whole month being like completely like just juicing and eating an apple and like severely working out to make me feel like I have control over the situation.

The women on Cycle one got it really bad.

Even Tyra admitted that, so you know it was bad.

They were the first group who were weighed on camera, despite Tyra bragging about being size inclusive by casting a plus size model on the first season.

What's the point of weighing us if we have people of all shapes and sizes, So you know, that's like already like, oh my gosh, you know what's wrong with how much I weigh?

What's the need for this?

And then you get into your head about that.

I think A and TM wanted them to be in their heads about their bodies.

I think they wanted to see the contestants stress about their weight and if no one who proves that more then Cyclephoris Kenya Hill.

During her time on A and TM, Kenya was rail thin, supermodel skinny, but inexplicably, her storyline on the show became about how she was gaining too much weight.

When I'm under a lot of stress, I find a real comfort in eating, Kenya.

She feels like she's gained some weight, but when the next bread tray comes around, it showed me the first one a groud, a Croissan or two off of it.

Kinga said the stress of being in the competition and not having access to the right foods caused her to gain a few pounds.

This photo is really.

Beautiful, Kenya, but I hate to say it.

They had to do a lot of bodywork on you in retouching for at home.

Pretty much.

I try to, you know, eat right, and we come here, it's howls.

Everything is thrown off.

Stop.

If you're sporting a gut, then you turn to the side and disguise.

Kenya.

In the real world, you're a thin girl.

But the fashion industry is so extreme and I would love to change the rules.

But until that happens, I think it's all about choices.

Kenya, you can get a burger and take the red off.

Tyra likes to position herself as the empathetic voice on the judging panel, and while her comments about Giselle on cycle one proved she wasn't above the body shaming, Tyra usually wasn't the one directly insulting and shaming the contestants.

That was reserved for Janie Nigel and sometimes Miss Jay.

But Tyra had her own way of making the contestants feel bad about their weights and bodies.

In that clip, she dismisses Kingya's explanation, calls the fashion industry extreme, and then upholds the same extreme standards.

Not to mention, she.

Blames Kenya for eating the bread on a burger that was probably served to her on an A and TM set.

Now, I want to be clear here, while the judges may I said Kenya was getting too big, it didn't translate to the camera.

I remember watching this season and feeling like this weight gain storyline was a stretch.

Sot to Kenya.

I absolutely felt like it was coming from left field.

It honestly was also like a bit of a mind fuck for me because my entire upbringing I was made fun of for being slim.

I was made fun of for being the skinny girl and never had hips, never was like a curvy like any of that stuff.

Then to go on the show and have people say you're not skinny enough is a huge mind fuck.

I just really felt like, well, what do I do now?

And how am I now drastically gonna drop weight?

Not to mention, I was like only eighteen nineteen years old.

I didn't know what to do to all of a sudden be this super even skinnier girl.

That was really confusing for me.

Kenya wasn't the only one confused.

The judges actually had a disagreement about King's weight with two guest judges.

During the trip to South Africa.

She walks in and she looks like a top model.

No, she looks pudgy, but African standards should be the skinniest good of life.

By African American standards, she'd be skinny too.

King's weight was a constant topic of debate, and it was clear the producers wanted to see her stress out about that.

They wanted her to be self conscious.

It wasn't just the judges talking about her weight.

The producers created opportunities to reinforce the idea that she was getting fat.

There was a photo shoot where the models had to represent the seven Deadly sins.

They literally put the girls in a coffin in a grade in a cemetery for the shot.

Side note you might remember one of the contestants had just gotten news of a friend's death right before the shot, and they put her on a coffin too.

Just had to mention that anyway, Kinga's deadly sin was gluttony.

They filled her coffin with food and put a doughnut in her hand.

It is just like glutty, like I'm greedy, I'm hungry.

Like Finia.

It just came off looking a little campy as opposed to fashioning.

Don't hold you tell me like you're pregnant.

In South Africa, they did a photo shoot where the models were.

Dressed up as animals.

Kenya was given the elephant.

Everybody else has these sexy little animals.

I get to be the big fat elephant.

Why do not I keep getting stuck with these fat like characters, what is going on?

Just for the record, that was antm's music choice, not ours.

Kenya was eliminated.

Right before the finale runway, when the judges were deciding who to send home, Janie brought up king It's Weight again.

I asked Kenya what it was like when she got home and watched her season finally air.

When I see Tyra and the crew people in the behind the scenes, the produce us and all these people who were like smiling in your face and like making it seem like they're your friend.

And then when I watched the edits back with the with the rest of the world, Like when I was in South Africa and we were walking on the beach, they were like zooming in on my belly on the beach.

I felt betrayed because it's like, y'all people made it seem like y'all are my friend.

Now you're fat shaming me on TV with the entire world to see.

Kenya was nineteen when she was on A and TM, but the experience of being made fun of and told she was fat had a profound effect on her.

She is still self conscious to this day.

For a period of time, I felt really uncomfortable eating in public because God forbid anybody in this public setting watched me on TV and they believed what was portrayed on the show, and now they're watching me and judging me eat, and so that has actually been a struggle even still to this day, Like I am mindful of is there anybody like watching me eat right now?

It's really messed up.

But when you're at such a young age and that happens to you, like, what else do you expect to happen?

In the twenty years since the show aired, Kinga says she's had women come up to her and tell her that the body shaming she experienced impacted them too.

There are so many women that watched me go through what I went through and developed their own negative relationship with their bodies from watching that.

Kinga told me after she left the show, she lost a few pounds she'd gained on the show, and then some but she was told she was still not skinny enough by agencies.

So there was some truth in what Tyra was saying about the fashion industry's extreme standards, but on a show that took great liberties with realcy when it came to photo shoots, runways and even awarding the best models.

Why did they choose body.

Shaming is the true representation to cling to It was a decision that planted the seeds of dysmorphia and disordered eating in their contestants.

But there were contestants who were.

Cast on A and TM who were already battling eating disorders, and A and TM exploited their health for a storyline.

We'll get into that after the break.

Okay, we're both getting the cane vodka.

You don't know the soup of the day.

Can I get a Dike?

Thank you, sir?

Are Cassie just wouldn't eat very much at dinner.

On cycle three, a contestant named Cassie Grisham was suspected of having an eating disorder by the other girls.

It was a storyline A and TM had explored before with Elise on cycle one.

Cassie didn't seem to eat much, and the other contestants started to notice her frequent trips to the bathroom.

Except unlike Elise, Cassie pretty much admitted to having a problem.

If I didn't want to be a model, I would eat whatever I wanted to and not worry about it.

Later that episode, during a photo shoot, Cassie confided in a fellow contestant named Amanda.

She confirmed that she was indeed battling and eating disorder.

So I'm going there.

I felt very sick at my stomach smells like puke.

Cassia informed Amanda that she was fellamex Amanda told somebody next to you know, everybody knows.

Of course, Amanda told another contestant, and the word spread.

By mid episode, all the girls knew Cassie happollimia.

It became a major topic of discussion at the photo shoot.

It's a disorder, so it's not fine.

It's gonna eat her alive.

And she's like, that's such a huge secret, you know, like anybody who doesn't listen, but like horrible insight.

A bunch of girls got mad at Amanda for spilling cassie secret.

Amanda is a complete ass.

We're telling Cassie's secret.

She plays this role that she's a sweet, nurturing mother.

If someone decides to confide in you, why don't you let that be between you and that person.

Let me just say, even if Amanda did it to gossip, she did the right thing by telling someone else eating disorders are dangerous.

They can kill you.

By telling the other girls, it put Cassie's eating disorder on the producer's radar.

Three episodes later, Wakes Up, Tyra made a surprise visit to the house and brought two guests, a plus sized model named Kate Dylan and a nutritionist.

All right, so today I'm gonna be talking about the modeling industry in terms of eating, body image, and.

The pressures to have to fit into a certain mold.

I have a friend of mine.

Her name is Kate Dylan.

Kate and I used to model in Los.

Angeles and in Paris, and she's one of the top plus size models in the industry.

Kate Dylan started out as a straight size model.

She was there that day to talk about eating disorders, something she had experience with.

In order to be a skinny model, you have to be skinny, and for me, it was really, really difficult.

I actually had a new new disorder.

I'd go days without eating or just maybe eating, you know.

An apple or something like that, and I couldn't stay in the business as I was.

I was unhealthy, I was miserable, and I ended up quitting the business.

I gained like fifty pounds and ended up returning.

But as a plus size model, this might not be the right career for any of you.

If it's not the right career for you, don't try to manipulate yourself at any cost to fit into it.

After Kate spoke about her experience, the nutritionists talked to the contestants about healthy eating.

For over fifteen years, I've been working with models, helping them to manage their weight.

It's all about balancing, moderation and consistency.

When the talk was over, Cassie asked to speak with Tyra, Kate and the nutritionists alone.

If I want to be a model, I feel like I should be skinny.

Cassie wasn't in the competition as a plus size model, and she made it clear she wasn't interested in pursuing that.

Cassie was already then.

But she was willing to go to extreme lengths to be skinnier.

Do you ever feel that it gets out of control and then you do a whole guilt head trip on yourself.

I have had several times rough thrown up in the past, but I never considered myself bilimic because I didn't throw up after every meal, and I would just do it at night if I thought I.

Ate too much and I shouldn't go to bed with.

It in my stomach.

I get nervous when I hear that you've thrown up?

Did you ever talk to anybody about that?

Maybe we should explore having you talk to somebody only, because it could really spiral out of control.

Especially in this environment with the pressure and the critique.

It sounds to me like it was already out of control.

Cassie believed she was beyond help.

I don't feel like I can talk to someone and they will know how I feel.

You can tell me I shouldn't do that all you want, but if I feel like I'm still gonna do it, I'm never gonna be help.

After the chat, all the girls were called back in for a healthy lunch salad, fruit and grilled chicken.

Cassie skip lunch to call her boyfriend c J.

What's up?

I think they want me to go to a counselor why pree?

You know what?

They don't how I have to tell them.

If I'm feeling that I'm happy and I'm doing fun and this is making me happy by doing this, then that's all that matters to me.

Cassie saying you know what to her boyfriend seemed to confirm that her eating disorder was an open secret in her life.

Although Cassie said it was making her happy, everyone including the contestants and the judges, could tell she was miserable.

Cassie didn't seem to have the language for it yet, but she was in crisis, and her telling Amanda and then asking for a one on one with Tyra, Kate, Dillon and the nutritionists was a cry for help.

A and TM answered that cry with body shaming.

Cassie wasn't sent to a trained professional for help, she was sent on some gosies.

On the following episode, the models spent the day going to castings, where they met with designers, tried on closed and showed off their runway walks.

More than one designer said something negative about Cassie's body, but designer Mark Bauer was particularly cruel.

I think that your thighs are a little big for the stress when I have you walk in it with the zipper open.

I think the biggest concern with Cassie for me was the size of our hips.

I just want to measure your thought, just to see where we're at.

Normally we like about no more than thirty five.

I think I'm right at there.

We're at thirty nine, Okay, I prefer a smaller hip.

This is so hard to listen to knowing that Cassie was battling an eating disorder.

On that episode Cassie was eliminated.

She wasn't sent home because she needed to get help, or at least that's not the reason the judges gave.

Cassie was sent home because the judges questioned if she wanted to be in the competition.

They said she didn't have any life behind her eyes and her photos.

It's probably kind of hard to look alive when you're starving.

Cassie admitted to having an eating disorder an entire four weeks before she was eliminated.

The moment she told Amanda should have been signal to producers to take a break from their regular format.

It was time for a very special episode.

Cassie's struggle was an opportunity for A ANDTM to send the message to eating disorders, no matter how prevalent they are in the modeling industry, are not okay.

They should have sent Cassie home right away to get some real help for me.

Cassie's storyline is even more disturbing knowing that A and TM did extensive psyche vows on all the contestants.

A and TM producers more than likely knew about Cassie's bolimia before they cast her.

It's possible they brought her onto the show just so they could exploit her for an eating disorder storyline.

Cassie's eating disorder wasn't just dangerous for her, it was dangerous for the young women watching at home.

Michelle Konstantinovsky is a journalist who's written about body image.

I had eating disorder.

I have dealt with it probably more than half my life.

That's why so much of my work is informed by that and around that, and why I'm so passionate about it.

Michelle is actually writing a book about A and TM.

She was in college when Cycle three aired, and she remembers Cassie's story vividly.

The Cassie storyline that haunts me, and watching it back, it was so sad the show did her such a disservice.

She's basically screaming out for help in the only way she knows how.

She's telling them, I throw up, but I don't have an eating sort.

I don't eat much, but I don't have an eating sort.

And they're all sitting there listening to her and looking really concerned.

And then they bring in the nutritionist and she's kind of saying, like, we'll just make healthy choices, and then she gives all the models like fruit salad, and it's like, well, that's not going to fix the issues that are festering deep within Cassie.

So she's being met with all these concerned looks, but at the same time she's being sent on go sees where Mark Bauer is measuring her thighs and telling her how on ex sceptibly large they are.

Michelle said when she rewatched that scene of Cassie with Mark Bauer years later, she was disturbed to discover that she remembered every line.

The second that scene came on.

I was like, oh my god, that is etched in my memory, like I knew the next word he was going to say.

I'm like, I saw that how many years ago?

And that scene is so horrifying that it lives red free somewhere in my brain.

Looking back on it, it's hard not to yell at the TV and be like, get her help and put a giant disclaimer on the show that you are only reinforcing the problem by keeping car ear.

How do you think Cassie felt when she was back at home and watched the episode air alongside the rest of the country.

A and t M producers may have thought they were shedding light on an issue that affects a lot of models by keeping Cassie on the show, but they also sent her on a gul sy with a designer who insulted her, and producers chose to air that comment before eliminating Cassie.

There's so many mixed messages, so many conflicting, contradictory things going on, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to being a woman and a body is horrific.

It's just there's just no winning in it at all.

That message that women can't win because there's always something wrong with our bodies, something to nitpick, something to fix, wasn't a message A and TM invented.

It was in the larger culture.

Tyra came up as a model and the heroin chic era of the nineties.

At the time, anything over a size too was seen as too fat for the runway, and Tyra internalized those messages.

By the time she created A and TM, that thinking wasn't just in the fashion world.

It it's filled over to pop culture.

Their early two thousands was brutal on women's bodies.

Here's Perez Hilton just kidding.

He was actually a big part of the problem.

Even after she took a step back from modeling, Tyra Banks herself was the target of fat shaving.

By two thousand and seven, she was hosting ANTM and her own talk show.

She didn't have to stress about her weight as much in the impossible standards of the modeling industry.

Around that time, a paparazzi photo of Tyra at the beach and a brown one piece swimsuit surfaced.

At the time, Tyra was about a size.

Eight or ten, but that photo made its way to all the tabloids with some really hurtful headlines like fat Tyra and America's next top waddle.

Tyra addressed the.

Body shaving head on in a segment on her talk show.

She wore the same swimsuit she was wearing in the Papa Rozzi photo.

I have something to say to all of you that have something nasty to say about me or other women that are built like me.

He's my fat house.

Tyra said she created A and TM to celebrate women's bodies, to empower women and let them know that all shapes and sizes are beautiful.

She did that because she knew what it was like to be shamed for not being a size too, but that message did not always translate to A and TM.

Jess Simms writes about health and body positivity, and she remembers seeing that moment on Tyra's talk show and feeling like it was a little hypocritical.

How she and her stat and her judges to meet the girls.

It could all come down to what's right for me, it is not right for you.

Tyra didn't want people to talk negatively about her body, but that didn't stop her and the judges from talking about other people's bodies on A and TOM.

I want to be treated well.

I want people to not comment on my body.

I felt like I was a task I felt I felt, but not wanting to make any institutional changes.

Even after Tyra herself was picked apart in the tabloids, A and TM continued to pick apart their contestants, all while saying they were inclusive.

The show always casts a plus size model, and for many of us, especially during the early seasons, A and TM was our introduction to the very idea of plus size modeling.

But for most of those years, America's Next Top Model also reinforced the message that there was no place in the world of high fashion for plus sized girls.

After the break, we'll get into A and TM's treatment of its plus size contestants and talk about how the show failed to deliver on Tyra's alleged mission.

This is how Tyra.

Kicked off A ANDTM Cycle twenty four, the show's final season.

America's Next Top Model has changed the definition of beauty and empowered women when they needed it.

The moment I've been judged for my shape and size, I.

Felt shameful about my body, but I defined myself.

I can do anything.

We celebrate to beauty and all of us, all shapes, all sizes, and all colored.

The Top Model is.

My dam and the fight continues to show you that you are beautiful.

By A and TM's final season, the show had rebranded itself as a champion of body positivity.

They'd done away with age requirements, they had short models, and there was more than one plus size model now they were calling them curvy models.

Plus size supermodel Ashley Graham even joined the panel of judges.

A and TM adapted to the changing world around it.

Body shaming was out and body positivity was in.

Tyra might have changed her too, but the longtime viewers knew the truth.

Body Shaman was Cyrus callstar Cycle Tan's Whitney Thompson is the only plus as model to ever win A and.

TM America's Next Top Models.

Whitney, You're the first.

Girl with some booty to win America's Next Top Model.

And actually the correct term is full figured model.

This should not be called plus size or figure.

This should just be called beautiful.

I honestly think the girls will look up to me and say, I can do that.

You know, I can be that.

I don't have to, you know, starve, I don't have to have plastic surgery.

I could really be like that.

I could be on that billboard, I could be on that magazine cover.

Why Because I'm beautiful, you know, from the inside out.

I have breasts, and I have hips, and I have a butt, and I am so proud of those.

I am here, I am me, and I'm not going to change.

Myself even after ANTM rebranded itself as a leader in the body positive movement, they never awarded the title to another plus size model, and they never did a plus size season.

There was a short model season, a British season, three co ed seasons, a college season, but never a plus size season.

Sarah Hartzorn competed as a plus size model on the cycle before Whitney Thompson Cycle nine.

For Sarah, being labeled.

Plus size was complicated because, although she didn't talk about it much on ANTM, she'd battle body dysmorphia and eating disorders since she was a preteen.

I was given this platform and be like fight for plus size girls, and I was like, I hate that I'm plus sized because I bought into the myth that most American girls, especially at the time, bought into, which is that we are supposed to look like models, right and if you don't, that is a moral failing on your part.

That's what I believe at the time.

Sarah didn't even enter the competition thinking of herself as plus size.

She just knew she wasn't as skinny as the other models.

I knew I wasn't a size zero or a size two, which is what's called straight size modeling, or like when you think of a model that's a typical model is to size double zero, technically to four, and I knew that I wasn't that, but I didn't know what that meant.

Sarah was probably a size eight at the time.

She's really tall five'.

Ten most people would consider her to be slim or average size in the real, world but in the modeling, world.

She was plus.

Size sarah became the face of that conflict on her.

SEASON i think looking at me and then calling me plus, size maybe people feel some type of.

WAY i THINK a AND tm Cast sarah so they can make a story out of her in between body.

Type and so they were, Like, okay let's explain that she's too thin to be plus, sized and they wanted to have that be the, angle BECAUSE i think it was just painful to admit that someone as thin looking AS i was was in fact.

Easily a plus size.

MODEL a plus size model and a plus sized person are not the same, thing AND i THINK i made people sort of acknowledge, that and it made them very.

Uncomfortable at the, time plus size models usually started around a size six or, eight and in catalog, modeling the sizes went up to around in eighteen or twenty a AND tm didn't cast plus size models who were over a size twelve or, Fourteen But sarah was still on the smaller end of that, spectrum so the judges started Telling sarah she was too small to be plus.

Size they planted the idea That sarah was losing weight on.

Purpose he seemed.

To be disappearing slightly in front of.

Us you seem to have lost quite a bit of.

Weight people have said, that, yeah AND i haven't been trying, to but people keep mentioning.

It we all, think, so you, know you have.

To actually be the size to be a plus size.

Model every, interview every, elimination are you losing?

Weight are you trying to lose?

Weight why are you losing?

Weight AND i also knew THAT i was, not in fact losing, weight AND i felt kind of like a dog with a bone THAT i just wouldn't let that out of my teeth because they kept trying to get me to admit THAT i was trying to lose weight and THAT i was losing.

Weight BUT i was, LIKE i know the.

NUMBERS i look at them every.

DAY i had lost like three pounds over the course of like almost a.

Month SO i was, LIKE i know how TALL i, AM i know how MUCH i, weigh AND i know that that's not enough to make the difference that they're talking.

About When sarah was eliminated from the, Competition tyra cited her body.

Tight your place in the industry is kind of confusing right now because models are so so so skinny or they're plus.

Size but according To, sarah the model who went on to become the first plus SIZE a AND tm, Winner Whitney, thompson was the same height and had the same measurements As.

Sarah after she was, Eliminated sarah went to look for agency.

Representation she was told that her body type was perfect for plus size.

Modeling so they made this big deal about HOW i was like too thin to be plus, sized and then WHEN i went To New york and signed with, agencies they were, like, no you're.

Fine ON, antm plus size models were often relegated to being supporting, casts or they were used to prove a point about modeling industry, standards Like.

Sarah but there's one contestant who got it the.

Worst she was, sidelined set up to, fail and then used to illustrate how the fashion world mistreated plus size.

Models i'm talking About Tokara.

Jones takara was a contestant On my favorite season OF a AND Tm cycle.

THREE i told you how MUCH i loved that season's, Winner eva Marcel Or.

Pickford then allow me a brief detour down memory.

Lane when she entered the, Competition eva already had a short, haircut but HER A andtm makeover took it to the next.

Level they dyed her hair honey, blonde cut it even, shorter and tapered it on the.

Sides at the, TIME i thought that was the flyest Haircut i'd ever.

Seen there's a photo Of eva And tyra after her.

Win in, It eva has the front of her hair spiked, up with her tapered sides falling into, loose natural.

CURLS i printed that picture in the library at, school took it to my hairstylus and, SAID i need this.

HAIRCUT i was.

Seventeen she promptly told Me eva AND i did not have the same hair texture and that if she took my hair that, blonde it would probably fall, out but she assured me she would do her.

Best three hours, LATER i was walking out of that salon with a decently close version of my favorite top model's.

Haircut you couldn't tell me.

Nothing so to SAY i was rooting For eva would be an.

Understatement but a funny thing.

Happened WHEN i REWATCHED a AND tm as an.

ADULT i couldn't figure out WHY i ever Liked.

Eva don't get me, wrong she was, fierce but she was.

Mean these, DAYS i find myself rooting for Takaray.

I'm, Here i'm, Here I'm.

Takara i'm, big flat and beautiful and loving.

It you know when you watch true crime shows and they say the victim lit up any room she walked, into and you're, like who if it is walking led.

Lamb they're talking about people Like.

Takara she had.

Presence she was, regal, beautiful, outgoing, charismatic kind and.

Funny takara was also super, confident and she didn't seem to be phased by standing in a room full of skinny.

MODELS i love my skin And i'm working.

It i'm hitting two hundred in the.

Bus WHAT i want to encourage full figure women to appreciate their body and snunned they're.

Beautiful takara was the first plus size contestant who entered the competition like she had a.

Real chance at.

Winning Even Janis dickinson said she could See takara, winning which is high praise from a woman who spent most of her time calling everyone too.

Fat takara was also a fan, favorite and she always seemed to do well at the photoshoots and, runways but her performance never seemed to translate at the judging.

Panel she was never called.

Out FIRST a AND tm made her look like an average contestant in the, competition but watching it back, now she's clearly a.

Star then came the.

SETUP i understand yesterday you learned a lot about, posing and.

Today's challenge is all about.

Posing not only are we going to put you gals in, lingerie but we're going to put you in the window Of La perla in front of the whole Of New York.

City there was a challenge where the models had to go to a fancy.

Lingerietique the contestants were given sexy lingerie to model in the shop window like real life moving.

Mannequins but when it was To cara's turn to get her, lingerie they didn't have anything in her.

Size and what size are?

You i'm A pertia, trip what do?

You let's see how that.

Fits laperla didn't have my size brawl stock and the rope was a, medium but you, know you have to deal with what you're.

GIVING a AND tm had all the model's.

Measurements this was a planned challenge for a major, production Yet laperla didn't have anything in stock that would fit To.

Cara so while all.

The other girls got to wear silk and laced bras and panties with interesting colors and, Textures tokara had to wear an ill fitting black satin robe and she was the only one in a robe it looked like the robe a model would wear a round set to cover the actual clothing she was.

Modeling when it was her time at the shop, Window cara had to pose alongside two other contestants in their cute lingerie while people on the street walked by and.

Stared you could Tell takara was struggling to stay.

Positive when the challenge was, over each model was critiqued on their.

Performance here's what the judge Told takara.

To, Caara obviously you have a sense of, humor BUT i didn't see any of it in the.

Window work on bringing some of your natural charm into your.

Modeling putting To kara in a, matronly ill fitting robe was an obvious, disadvantage and it's hard to keep your spirits up and joke around when you're being treated.

Unfairly BUT i think that's HOW a AND tm wanted, it because While takara saw herself as a, winner the producer saw her as a supporting, character the fat.

Friend takara was always a cheerleader for the other.

Models she was there boosting their.

Confidence when another, Contestant, kelly started doubting her looks because of the judge's, Critique takara was the one who gave her a pep.

Talk takara was always a shoulder to cry, on but she was rarely the main focus of an.

Episode it's a character trope we see a lot in SCRIPTED tv shows and, movies the, fat bubbly girl with a great personality whose storyline always revolved around her skinnier.

Friend it also seemed Like takara's other purpose on the show was to be an example of the second class treatment plus sized models received in the.

Industry there was a particular photoshoot that seemed to Be takara's breaking.

Point, today you're going to be doing a photo shoot with a.

Twist you'll be doing two shots dressed up as two extremely opposite.

Personas then we'll put the two images together into one.

Photograph the photo shoot was For.

Mustang the models had to pose with the car as their two alter.

Egos one was meant to be glamorous and the other super.

Edgy one model was a rich socialite in a punk rock.

Rebel another was a, sweet innocent virgin and a.

Dominatrix one girl's edgy alter ego was An amazonian.

Woman they put her in a.

Headdress when it Was takara's, turn she was assigned A hollywood starlet and No lie the parking lot.

Attendant they wanted her to hand the keys to her glamorous alter ego self while the other girls got body, paint tailored, suits headdresses and face.

Masks they put To kara in a orange button up shirt and khaki.

Pants and on top of all, that when it came time For takara to go to, wardrobe wouldn't you know, it the same thing that happened At La parla happened again What's?

Funice did you tell me you are?

Twelve vers are really a?

Fourteen they're, like, oh work out a bowl of, Alley, no you.

DON'T i don't know why all the girls were so nice looking and HERE i am looking LIKE i work at.

Home, thifo you have didn't stand too To caru if you were to do, catalogs you, know for plus size models and stuff like, that.

This is my.

Fashion this is LIKE i gotta threw myself to hi Fas.

AN tm was allegedly preparing the contestants to be high fashion, models And takara was supposed to have a fair shake in the.

Competition yet the silas was talking to her about catalog.

Modeling that's how a lot of plus size models made a.

Living Despite tyra's mission to expand the definition of, BEAUTY antm was basically, saying there's no Way takara will ever be a top, model so why even pretend in this.

Competition the stylist certainly Had takr's measurements before she stepped on.

Set it was her job to find looks that fit To, cara but instead she was extremely rude To.

Takara she body shamed her and then blamed her for not being a size.

Too do you think That i'm going to be able to get a rack like this loaded with clothes in your?

Size you can't find something in, size So i'm supposed to be anything as a.

NEGATIVE i don't think that you realize how this whole modeling thing.

Works, then when she was Helping takara get, dressed the stylust literally pinched her with a, pen.

Just like no.

APPRECIATION i, sun all, right you got.

Pinched oh my, god oh my, god let me.

See the stylists seemed to be singling To cara.

Out, now if this were a real photo, shoot you better believe the stylist would have the right size clothes for the.

Models that's literally their.

Job BUT a AND tm wanted to make a point plus size models faced difficult.

Hurdles they weren't always treated fairly or with respect in the fat phobic, industry and while this might have been, true they used To kara a real person who thought she had a shot at winning to make their.

Point When takara stepped on set dressed like a parking lot attendant after watching all the other girls get to be punk rock rebels In Amazonian.

Warriors she was.

Crushed, tokara who was usually so full of, life couldn't bring it in that photo.

Shoot she's opening the for the glamorous one because look at, her she's a parking.

ATTENDANT i want to feel your, PAIN i want to feel your.

LONGING i just wanted to read a little more in your, eyes because, honestly your weakest point in your photoge are your.

Eyes and even when she changed into her Glamorous starlit, look the stylus continued to Insult.

Takara she implied That takara's breasts were too, big instead of taking accountability for finding clothes that were too.

Small maybe some tape we're gonna have to really severely strap them.

Down i've been disappointed with.

MYSELF i allowed other people to take my energy that they would have made me feel so, bad.

Ashamed the hardest part about watching that scene is that it's so clear A tm Set takara up to, Fail but in that, Moment takara blamed.

HERSELF i don't THINK i did a very good.

JOB i should have capapositive at it.

Too takara was finally the main pot guess of an.

Episode that's because a AND tm had broken her, spirit.

AND i think that was by, design and she should make me thing like.

That you, know everybody else how it AND i KNOW i prepare myself to everybody else with down.

Slacks and skirts and.

Dresses.

Thing it's just hard Because.

I'm stating just trying to be so grateful just makes grateful when it.

Covers on the following, Episode takara was.

Eliminated the judges said she'd lost her.

Spark Tyra banks likes to think of herself it's someone who helped carve out a place in the industry for plus size, models and in some WAYS a AND tm, did but the way they treated the plus size models on the show also crushed the dreams of their.

Viewers Stephanie yaboa is a writer and plus size.

Model she remembers seeing HOW a AND tm treated To kara when she was a.

Teenager it was one of the reasons she thought she couldn't pursue.

Modeling with me watching it at the, TIME i would probably SAY i was like a size sixteen to, Eighteen AND i REMEMBER i would watch some cycles AND i would feel this sense, of, oh, WELL i can't get into plus size modeling AND i can't get into modeling full, stop Because america's next top model is probably representative of modeling agencies, worldwide and so if we're getting a glimpse into what modeling agencies could be, like then there's no point in me trying to get my foot in the door or maybe feel good about.

Myself WHEN i was watching the show as a, TEENAGER i didn't THINK a andtm's messages about bodies and.

Weight had a real effect on.

ME i didn't want to be a, model AND i didn't want to be as thin as the girls on the.

Show it wasn't UNTIL i REWATCHED A andtm for this podcast THAT i realized it had affected, me because.

Why WASN'T i rooting for it To?

Kara she had everything going for her, beauty personality and.

TALENT i Like, takara BUT i didn't see her as a.

WINNER i saw her as a supporting character because while skinny models Like eva were set up to, win plus size models were set up to be.

Sidelined they were there to make a point and then go.

HOME i root it For eva and got my haircut like her BECAUSE i wanted to identify with the, winner not her fat friend that realization makes.

Me feel a little sad and.

Ashamed what makes it even worse is That takara is so clearly that.

Girl, now don't get me, wrong this isn't a pity party For.

Takara after she left the, Show takara became a working.

Model DESPITE a AND tm making it seem as though there wasn't a place for her in the, Industry takara carved out a.

Place she even had a spread In Vogue.

Italia i'd say she's one of the first well known plus sized black.

Models takara is still one OF a and TM's most successful, alumps and she says she's grateful for the PLATFORM A andtm gave, her but it's clear on the show she was never set up to, win and that makes me wonder About tyra's so called mission to showcase diverse beauty and champion.

Body positivity and recent.

Interviews When tyra was asked ABOUT a andtm's contradicting, messages this is what she.

SAID i was this like unique beauty.

CRUSADER i was also this person trying to get these models, work AND i think at times they battled BECAUSE i wanted them to get.

Work but even more important to me was being a beauty.

Crusader and so what ends up happening is that it's a.

Clash.

Right i'm, Saying, OH i want all these you uned beauties.

Much you need to change, that and you need to change that BECAUSE.

I have these agents in the background, saying, yeah you want us to sign these.

Girls but she needs to change this and she needs to change.

That in, HINDSIGHT i should have still been that beauty.

Crusader that is my heart and soul and WHY i started this.

Show and so that was like my big, lesson AND i didn't need social media to tell me.

THAT i realized that on my.

Own i've said this on the podcast a, lot but almost none OF a and TM's contestants became top.

Models even the very thin models who had all the right, MEASUREMENTS a surprising number of them couldn't even find work because.

The industry didn't see them as real.

MODELS atm took a lot of artistic liberties to make the show, entertaining but calling the contestants fat is WHERE a AND tm decided to keep it.

Real tyra could have just leaned into her so called unique beauty.

Crusade at least then she'd be known for, that not for sending the message to millions of young women watching that there was something wrong with their.

BODIES i asked Just, sims one.

Of the writers you heard from, earlier which she thought ABOUT a and TM's choice to stick to body.

Shaming the only CONCLUSION i could come, to really is that that was our purpose or GOOD.

Tv that they had to have somebody that they could criticize this.

Way they had to have somebody who could serve as a punching, bag because they needed that extra level of toxicity in order to have audiences tune.

In remember What tyro's agent told her when she came up with the idea FOR a AND.

Tm he, said no one would watch the show because models weren't, relatable they weren't.

Sympathetic but he didn't understand the appeal of a show Like America's Next Top.

MODEL a lot of women didn't tune in because they wanted to.

Relate they tuned in because for an hour every week they got free rein to scrutinize other women's.

Bodies it felt good to see women who thought they were beautiful be knocked down a, pig at least while they were watching the.

Show it's the oldest trick in the.

Book being mean to someone else makes you feel better for a.

Moment but after the episode ended and those women and girls got ready for, BED i don't think they were left feeling inspired By tyra's unique beauty.

CRUSADE i think they squeezed their own thighs and, arms looked in the, mirror and went to bed feeling a bit worse about.

Themselves if you or someone you know is struggling with disordered, eating help is available CALLED, nita The National Eating Disorder association at eight hundred nine three one two two three, seven or TEXT nita to seven four one seven four.

One on the next.

And final, episode we look AT a AND tm And tyra's legacy and try to answer the question It's Tyra banks a REALITY tv.

Villain it's just it's such an unfair.

Industry they're making it all the, money still just laughing all the way to the, bank and we don't get anything like nothing like it's just, gosh throw me one thousand dollars per, year you know WHAT i, mean give me a, Thousand i'll take.

It we give me something like it's so.

Insulting thanks for listening to The curse Of America's Next Top.

Model we're grateful for your.

Support we'd love for you to really show your support by subscribing to our show On Apple.

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And if you, don't maybe keep that one to.

Yourself The curse Of America's Next Top model is a production Of Glass, podcasts a division Of Glass Entertainment, group in partnership With iHeart.

Podcast the show is executive produced By Nancy, glass hosted and singer produced by Me Bridget.

Armstrong our story editor Is Monique, leboard also produced By Ben fetterman And Andrea.

Gunning associate producers Are Alisha, Key Kristin, melky And Curry.

Richmond consulting producers on this podcast Are Oliver TwixT And Kate.

Taylor Our iHeart team Is Ali perry And Jessica.

Crincheck audio editing on this episode By matt Del, Vecchio Andrew callaway And Tanner.

Robbins The curse Of America's Next Top model theme was composed By Oliver.

Bains music library provided by Myb Music.

Special thanks to everyone we, interviewed especially the former.

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