Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.

We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.

Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six.

Kyota, I'm Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by.

The New Zealand Herald.

It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails.

The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator.

The Police Watchdog.

Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page report into how the allegations were treated and how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the interests of a vulnerable woman.

Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.

He said it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the former top brass is inexcusable.

He was briefed about the situation just two days before he stepped into the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography, including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least five years.

The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace and was later charged.

He's pleaded guilty last week and will be sentenced next month.

This whole ordeal has been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in our country.

Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director, Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced sexual abuse.

But first, someone who knows all too well what it's like to step up to those in power is Louise Nicholas.

She alleged police officers raped her as a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials, a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

She is a campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now on the front page.

First Off Louise.

When you heard this news, what was your first reaction?

Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.

Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in the police force again.

Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was.

That kind of like kicked me back into that time.

But I soon realized that this is it came across ed this time police were actually doing something about it and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not us sort of thing.

They were on too, it being straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out, it was all on.

So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that quite a bit different than what you experienced.

Yeah?

Absolutely absolutely.

It was like, I wouldn't say a breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.

It made me feel this is actually going to be okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that covered everything up.

So for me, it was this is going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much.

Yeah.

When there are questions around public trust in police, I suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these kind of things happen.

That's rotten apples in the basket.

But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard at the moment.

What's your first thought when you hear statements like that?

Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work, and doing the work really really well to a point that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.

It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take the cop hat off and actually be human when they're dealing with our survivors that are going through this.

You know, that just describes this this horror, and you've got a copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm and saying we will do what we can and you can't be I wish that had happened way back in the day, you know, but it is happening.

Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here, but it did find police ignored the woman at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's version of versions of events.

What message do you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at the moment whether or not to come forward about something like this.

Well, I think what we've got to remember it was senior staff that took control of that investigation and when somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged what they were doing.

That to me is the hope that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody within the New Zealand place.

They've got you back.

They absolutely have.

And when I heard that, actually how it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that are that are helping our communities.

And so for me it was a revelation of thoughts.

That something's actually happening.

Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing the bad to account.

Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up, there were a few staffers who made sure that it made the light of day.

Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was.

All was some sort of group think going on.

But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people who stood up for what they knew was the right thing.

And one of them sent this matter of the IPCA as a complaint.

And without her work and their work of the others, this might never have seen the.

Light of day.

Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.

Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know, And that's what it took somebody within the media to acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this corruptness going on and all this harm being done to not only the South but to ow many others.

And he took the ball by the horns and did something about it.

And it's kind of like it's mirrored with the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers that did exactly the same thing that is what the change has been.

They believed without a doubt.

Absolutely they saw that process and protocol and everything.

You know, it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.

They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?

And so because of that it brought it to the light of day.

We will continue to do what is needed to ensure this does not happen again.

Police have also accepted all the recommendations in the report.

The Police Commissioner will speak to that in more details shortly.

The New Zealand Police enjoys strong public trust and confidence.

It is imperative that this trust is maintained.

That comes with strong action on the part of the government.

Finally, I do want to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as a reflection on our police service as a whole.

When you look back at what you've been through with the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until the early two thousands up until now, and you now work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it difficult to regain that trust well for the police.

And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and I told them that to these basis, especially going through the thought process and that you know, they were wanting me to make another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no, I'm not doing that.

I don't trust you, bastards was my words.

But it's been over.

It was a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that hurt me.

It was individuals with them.

And it's the same for this as well.

And that's why I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single day right across the country, is that we're advocating for you because we know that you're doing the best that you can for our survivors.

And so it wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior do up the ranks.

And that's what people need to understand.

Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well, every cops are saying no, no, it's not.

If there is someone out there right now struggling and they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened to them.

They've survived something horrific and they.

Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out, they kind of took a step back.

I suppose what would you tell them to take that couple of steps forward?

Yep, please take that couple of steps forward.

There are agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that can support you.

And the core thing that we have worked hard alongside police with is how do we get that first disclosure?

How do we get our survivors to trust in the police and in the process.

And it's quite simple.

It's like a meet and greet.

So we meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual Assault team or in the child protection team or you know, and we have that conversation.

And we have done that hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said, I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and helping each other.

The police officer and the survivor and the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.

And it's in a safe place.

It's not at the police station.

It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's what works.

If you're unsure, pick up the phone.

Whether it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust, it doesn't matter.

Oh and then ask the information and guidance because we're there to guide.

We're there to advocate on your behalf to do what we can because we know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma, we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want to tell my story.

How do I do that?

Do you remember what was going through your head before you told your story?

Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need to protect everyone around me.

No one's going to believe me.

Look who I'm up against.

You know, I'm going to be telling the story of a rape by members of the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me.

But it was the thought I had with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.

You can do this because everything that has happened to you is not your fault.

And that's what our survivors need to understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.

And regardless of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held that person to account.

You have taken back the power that was taken from you.

And it's amazing how our survivors go into the process with their heads down and they walk out the other side going I did it.

I did it.

Absolutely.

You can absolutely as our justice system and the way we have to go through this process.

Okay, no, it's not easy.

I'm not gonna lie.

But at the end of the day, all you can do is tell you the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you.

You can stand tall, you tell your truth and it's all you've got to do.

Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.

No worries at all.

Thank you for having men help.

Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in Tamickee Makodo ever since.

Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a clinical psychologist and joins us.

Now on the front page.

So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard the details.

About the woman at the center of all this.

Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her, to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over some years.

Through all of this.

But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of you know, the nature of the role of the person who was hurting her or you know, all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a period of time and try to get out of those situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen.

To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing about this case, Well.

You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust in the police and make people feel you know, even more unsafe to go and report to police.

It's a really hard thing.

To do to do that anyway, and this kind of you know, finding out about this kind of thing having occurred just you know, notches that down.

And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get up our reporting and you know we've only just in the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up.

So you know, my.

Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them.

And so yeah, I think it's really important that people understand that there are support services in place, so services like help where I am, there's services right across the country.

So if you go to a police station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know that there is an independent support person there with you through that process and that those services available to you for as long as you need them.

And you know that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to promote people well being through the process.

But that certainly can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.

You know, we work with police every day and so we have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh.

You know, why is that happening, and you know, be in that place to support people.

So I really want people to know that you're not only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints, but there are independent support people there as well.

I want to apologize to the woman at the center of this for the repeated early failures in following the proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a senior level of police.

You had asked for help, you would badly let down.

That was unacceptable.

What are some of the biggest barriers in general for people to come forward other than I mean, I guess it would be really scary going to police in the first place.

Hey, yeah, it's really scary.

But you know big barrier is that you don't expect to be believed often.

You know, that's the nature of grooming, that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's why it's so important that people who are responding to complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time, what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing harm will do things and say things to diminish the person or you know, as appears to have occurred in this situation.

They groom the environment that they're in.

So, you know, an example of that here is that you know that you talk negatively about the person before they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint comes in.

The person isn't believed.

You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence, and so you know, we really need to make sure that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know, are always informed about those dynamics.

Certainly, the you know, the sex assault police teams at the front line are informed about those but you know, one you know, reading the IPCA report, you have to question where the police hire up.

We're well informed about those dynamics.

If someone was to come to you for advice and they had been sitting on something and they were ready to come forward, but then they see something like this happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?

Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about what they needed to feel safe.

I mean, it's always their decision.

There's no pressure from us about whether you report or don't report, because it really has to be the.

Individual's decision on that.

But really, I mean the kinds of things that we would do is talk with them through their worries, talk with them about how those worries might be addressed.

You know, if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would make sure that we were with them and you know, fully able to support them through the process.

But it really is an individual decision, and.

You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes for friends and family to understand.

They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting?

But it is a tough process.

You have to talk about things which can feel shaming and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is, you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes Survey for example, you know there are lots of New Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of sexual assaultants.

So there is always that wondering and so you know, people really have to make that decision themselves about whether they want to go forward with a complaint or not.

And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand that PTSD you actually feel those emotions.

You feel like you did at the time that it happens.

So it doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know, we call that an internal trigger that can.

Take you back to those feelings.

But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you about it can put you back in that place, or even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you of those experiences.

And so you know, that's the reason for those independent support people being there is that we can help people get through that process keeping their well being as intact as possible.

And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you as well for advice if they have somebody close to them who has experienced this or is going through something like this.

Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us because you know, we're in people's lives for a short period of time.

Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long.

Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors, the better.

Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.

Thanks Chelsea.

That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage Herald dot co dot Nz.

The Front Page is produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.

I'm Chelsea Daniels.

Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.