Just ask for what you want from the venue.

Why can't it be hot chips and pieces of bread with butter?

Like, Why can't it be an all gluten free menu?

Welcome to the Exploring Neurodiversity Podcast for adults who support Neurodivergent children.

I'm Adina from Play.

Learn.

Chat.

I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speech therapist, professional educator, speaker, and I also support Neurodivergent Business owners in my other business, Neurodivergent Business Coaching and Consulting.

I'm obsessed with creating a world when Neurodivergent people are understood, , embraced, supported, and can thrive in a life aligned with our individual strengths, wants and needs.

I bring a Neurodiversity Affirming approach and indeed a human affirming approach to the support that we all provide for Neurodivergent kids in our lives.

This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginal lands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.

Katie Koullas is a late identified AuDHDer Snap High five.

Um, and the founder and visionary leader of a Yellow Lady Bugs, which is a absolutely groundbreaking, fabulous national charity.

Empowering autistic girls, women and gender diverse people based in Australia and Melbourne.

some of those adjectives were my own, I'm just gonna gush she'd been life changing for many, including me.

And that's why I am so stoked to have you on and to chat with you about accessible events because everything I've been involved in and heard about that yellow ladybugs has done, has been.

Just so affirming and accessible at all levels in, in as much as is humanly possible, which is never a perfect beast.

So true.

Thank you.

also what I didn't know, and it makes sense now I see it, is that Katie's also been an accountant, corporate event and marketing manager and a lecturer in event management.

So not only are you very good at this stuff, you literally know it from all angles.

So it makes sense.

Yeah.

I've had a very A DHD career path.

I hear you.

Me and my two businesses and my two podcasts here.

Yeah.

So we decided to do this across, all the things.

So we're sharing it on my podcast for neurodivergent business owners, differently aligned.

And for my podcast for.

Grownups who support Neurodivergent Kids, which is exploring neurodiversity.

And we're gonna have a few, like extra juicy bits.

Like the full, full chat is in my membership, the Neurodivergent Business Collective for business owners.

So that's amazing.

Adina, well done on all those incredible spaces that you've created.

Thank you.

It's really cool.

It's just me, me and my computer, and then a bunch of chats with amazing peeps.

Yay.

Ditto.

Ditto.

That's Yellow Lady bugs.

Pretty much.

That's all we're doing.

We're just chat about our spins.

How are you?

And I love to like, just say, answer however you want.

I really love that.

I am okay.

this time of year gets like, I'm on the wind down, so we're nearing the end of the year and I'm looking forward to that break.

So I'm really good and feel it inside.

Looking forward to the end of the year.

I love that.

I dunno the exact number, but I heard there's something like around a hundred days left of the year, which I kind of like that vibe.

I counted in weeks to Christmas, I think there's like 12 weeks to Christmas .

let's dive in because there's so many places I want to go about all kinds of events, big and small.

IRL in real life acronym wise.

online everything and aspects of planning, coordinating, running events.

But before all of that, I wanna know like a corner of you, I don't know, maybe is what are your lifelong glimmers or any current glimmers or things that just delight you?

Ooh.

Um, so I'm obsessed with anything glitter and bling.

And I never understood why I, I always used to call myself like a magpie that used to just be distracted by it.

But now I realize it's definitely, a sensory thing.

Like I'm a sensory seeker.

So seeing that, and it also is a bit stimmy like I can get lost at just looking at Christmas lights or like my whole house is just.

Different lighting.

I don't have any overhead lights.

I've got pink lights, um, purple lights in the bathroom.

I have showers with fairy lights and yes.

Definitely, like part of my DNA is bling and glitter.

Um, and like most neurodivergent folk, I love animals.

And so I've got four cats and a dog.

So that has been really joyful and a common thread for our family.

Like it's been one of the best things to connect us all.

And I've seen the difference with animals in the house in terms of helping us regulate and stay in our, like, windows of tolerance, like amazing.

It really does connect us.

And so sending pictures to each other and my, I've got teens now, so when I first started yellow ladybugs, you know, the kids were like five, but now I've got a one turning 18 in a few weeks , and one 16.

So.

Sharing pics of the animals is just gives me so much joy.

So yeah, those would, that's so lovely.

Would be my two core things.

I'm sitting here with my brightly colored multicolor nail, others always glitter.

Absolutely.

Love, love, love.

I definitely get you on the visual stim.

Yeah, for sure.

you mentioned your ADHD style, career, go wherever you want here, but like, how did you get to where you are at this point Oh yes.

Well, so you are right.

A DHD again, I don't know how far to go back, but stop me.

But in high school, I never really fitted in.

So I think I did a post on this the other day around.

I turned to books, um, instead of friends because, you know, I was just the lone wolf at school and I connected with the teachers more.

So I studied, studied, and I knew it was also a way for me to, um, have freedom in a household that didn't always feel stable or safe.

So, um, I, I just was good at accounting and because the teacher said to me, you should do accounting, I took it.

So literally I didn't even think like what?

It gives me joy, what I, I just was such a literal interpretation of someone saying, you should do this.

And so like back in the day I applied for a cadetship and I was really lucky to get it.

So I started my work straight outta high school full-time and I did my degree at nights and I just, worked, worked, worked.

Like I was just a hard, I didn't realise, how much I was missing on that sort of rest part.

And I now see that as part of my own avoidant coping scheme but that gave me a good base of like working out there.

I really love to be analytical and maybe that's the autistic part of my brain and it really fed that part of me.

I was a tax agent, an accountant for the big four, like e um, back in the day, Anderson and ey.

And then, um, just as I started unmasking and as I got older, maybe in my early twenties, I started saying, well, what do you actually like doing?

And I realized marketing and events was, I think I organized my wedding, actually.

That's probably where it started from.

And I really loved that creative part and I never allowed myself to lean into that because I was always doing what I thought I should be doing.

Luckily got a, a transfer at Ernst and Young and I became their marketing and event sponsorship manager.

Um, you know, A DHD lets us sort of deep dive and learn on the ground.

And so I just, even though I hadn't had a background in it, I just learnt on the job and, I see really common thread for AuDHD people is that you have both the analytical sort of, and that creative side, but allowing the ADHD to come through was great for that.

And I'll talk a bit more about it when we get into inclusive and accessible events, but learning about events and in the corporate world was great and marketing.

And then I had kids and like a lot of, mothers or fathers, I guess whoever's still staying home, I had to find a career that would work around that.

And that was the first time I started working for myself and I became a business consultant and marketing consultant.

And oh my God, it was so good being my own boss.

Like I, I used to burn so many bridge, like stories I can share about burning bridges in my corporate world.

Um, not being appropriate, uh, saying the wrong thing, you know, so many.

Being able to just not needing to report to anyone was just amazing.

Um, obviously there's challenges like I'm sure you know Adina, but that, that was really was after at

1:00 AM um, doing something that really excited me and I couldn't turn my brain off.

Yes.

But did I also mono till 11:00 AM also Yes.

A hundred percent mono tropic flow.

There you were in the flow.

Exactly.

Totally.

Then I just thought, you know what, I love events.

I wanna give teaching a go.

again, I didn't have a master's in teaching, but I talked my way into teaching a bachelor of, event management at tafe.

And so I did that, um, and it was so much fun.

I taught entrepreneurship, I taught event management and working with students was amazing.

and that's where I started Yellow Ladybugs and I got some of my students to help me with our first ever event.

And so it was sort of like a side quest.

Project for the class.

Awesome.

Which then just snowballed.

And now I'm full-time, at Yellow Ladybugs and the CEO and managing the team.

I love that.

And there's a context, but I never knew.

And it just makes sense not to say that, you know, if you get your CV out, it's not to say that just anyone's gonna also have that same CV and do an amazing inclusive job.

Um, yeah.

Which is why I'm glad we are having this chat.

Yeah.

And I'll just say my own involvement with Yellow lady Bugs has been that you have, um, delighted me and invited me to be a speaker for three years, I'm so grateful too.

And the year before that I attended online the three day conference, and that was my.

Origin story as in that was my turning point to recognize I really do think I'm not just making it up.

I really do think I'm neurodivergent.

I am now gonna go seek that external validation of a psychologist Oh my, to do that.

and I know I'm not the only one who's had that experience where I just, you I've got goosebumps.

I, I often don't hear the stories though 'cause I'm so task focused.

So taking a moment to hear your story Adina just gives me so much like joy to know that, um, you and I, 'cause I didn't know all was autistic either when I started Yellow Ladybugs.

Yeah.

Going through that as well by hearing stories like from people like you too.

It's, it's so interesting how close we can be to it for so many years and maybe gaslight ourselves and you know.

Absolutely.

Hundred percent.

It all makes sense in hindsight, even as soon as two weeks ago, a friend of mine let me know that she's just got her AuDHD diagnosis and what prompted her was watching yellow ladybugs, I think this year to go and seek that.

I'm like, it's still happening.

It's so cool because I think the more we can understand ourselves, you know, there's so many ways that will flow through our lives, relationships, work, community, everything.

All of it.

Yeah.

And, um, so nice.

I know that a big part of Yellow lady bugs that I haven't been involved with has over the years, been running groups with and for autistic and neurodivergent children and their families and so on.

Can you share a little bit about, what's the range of events you've run?

Yeah, sure.

Sure.

So I mean like the origin story of the event and where it was born.

The idea was born from, is my youngest daughter was in maybe grade one I think at the time.

And I saw everyone getting an invite to a party in the queue outside the classroom.

And they sidestepped my daughter and, and the child gave everyone, but my daughter and I, I just was just, it was when we were exploring and I think she had just been identified as autistic.

And I just was like, this is just so unfair.

And I didn't know the word neurokin back then.

I didn't even understand community.

I didn't, you know, I was so not like new to it back then.

Honestly, I don't even know if it was a thing.

Yellow Ladybug was her nickname because she, yellow ladybugs following me when I was pregnant to her.

So Yellow Ladybug was her nickname and she was, that was her hyper focus and we threw yellow Ladybugs birthday parties for her when she was 2, 3, 4.

So everything was themed yellow ladybugs for her.

So I said to myself like, I wonder if there's any other Yellow Lady bugs out there.

I just wanted her to have like a party that she could go to.

And so, with my background at Ernst and Young, I used to run private events at the NGV because we sponsored it.

So I just was like, well, how can I give.

Her this cool experience of meeting other kids in a space that's accessible for her.

And I remember doing a shout out on social media saying, are there any other autistic girls that would like to meet up for a party?

And that's how it sort of started.

And I rang up, my contact.

Look, honestly, I'm the kind of person that just asks and pushes.

Like I know it's difficult for a lot of people to do that and it might be a massive barrier but for me, I know that is one of my strengths.

So lent into that logistics and all of that isn't my strengths, like executive functioning, but asking for what I need or want is luckily one of my strengths.

And I said, is there any chance that you can close the gallery or let us access the gallery early for this group of kids?

I've got this idea for, an event.

This is before the NGV even understood accessibility in terms of neurodivergence.

They're all on it now, but 10 years ago, no, no one was even understanding this, this concept.

So they said yes, like, and we were able to, we were able to have 20 kids go to the National Gallery of Victoria before it opened, got access to the Children's Gallery.

We had little yellow ladybug cupcakes.

Each kid got a t-shirt, a yellow ladybugs t-shirt.

And I just remember that day because I had never seen kids like Mia, none with headphones, kids with messy hair, and parents were just crying like, it seems so common now.

But back then it was just so rare.

And I just felt like the magic it just like gave me this like a mission that I think I need to be on.

And.

Try and bring more of this out into the community, so That's amazing.

So they, yes.

You know, most other families, I'm guessing also had never experienced something.

No.

Yeah, no, no one else.

Everyone just were, were blown away by it.

And, that's where we had a really great group of volunteers come together after that and I had student volunteers that were helping.

So it was really great to see where that was going to lead and evolve to.

And, and it started with your Lady Bug's birthday?

It did.

It did.

And look, honestly, she was still on the outer and, and, she still didn't like, you know, go up and she didn't make any besties or anything.

But what it gave her, which again I didn't have the words for, is that pride and like knowing that she's not alone and even.

That, like wearing the yellow ladybugs t-shirt as a symbol of unity and community.

I didn't have the words for it then, but I just somehow, like maybe my experience with branding, I don't know, it just sort of came all together.

It wasn't forced, it was organic and it was really like altruistic in my, like, this needs to happen to, for the world mission in my brain.

So it's making me think, I'm thinking of like sliding doors, moments in a way.

It's like, that was so pivotal.

And probably there's a bunch of shots that you and I have taken over time and, you know, tried things.

I'm just saying you and I, 'cause I'm sure you've also tried a bunch of things and they don't always end up to be epic.

Amazing.

Hundred percent.

Hundred percent.

But that's okay too.

It's, yeah.

You just keep following the threads that feel important.

Yeah.

And right.

And, um, yeah.

And even though this is not technically a business, I would say, like as an entrepreneurial brain myself, I've had 500 billion different business ideas.

Mm-hmm.

Even though, to me this is sort of bigger than that.

Um, even though I've used my business skills, I, I've honestly, um, tried stuff before and I've had, like, like you said, there's reasons why things might not work, and that's okay.

But you might get this one idea that just all the things fall in place.

It's the right timing, it's the right 'cause if I tried it 10 years earlier, I, I wouldn't have had that.

You know, all my skills come together like in my forties or maybe, I think I started in my thirties of the background in accounting, the background in events, the background in marketing, the lived experience.

It's all kind, it just all came together at the same time, at the right time.

Makes, uh, like serendipitous perhaps total sense it's amazing.

And I see where, why are we here, here and why you're here, um, you know, in this moment and in this moment of impact.

And I think, apart from me having an amazing time in every aspect when I've been involved in yellow ladybugs, whether it's my experience, being on panels where the way that you've supported panel members to feel comfortable and prepared, for example, has been incredible.

Not to mention the, uh, I think a lot of us call it autistic Christmas, um, yellow lady bugs.

The in-person day of the conference in Melbourne, uh, which I've been to twice now, has been, just like this is like, I hope we'll talk about it because a big group of people in a big space, many of whom we don't know, um, is almost the antithesis of what many autistics want and need, and so that's almost like the, the furthest thing from what I do in my life, which is sit here in front of my computer screen and, you know, same.

But yet with all that contrast, you make it so.

Glorious, all the effort that we all put in to be there to, to create space and safety for each other and, you know, and, and for ourselves is worth it.

And, there's more and more events popping up around, I'll just take Australia, I'm not as the events in the rest of the world, but more and more events talking about Neurodivergence, neurodiversity, trying to be spaces for community or for education.

Mm-hmm.

Some are conferences.

Some are less formal, you know, there's all sorts.

Yeah.

But are you seeing it too?

I am, I'm seeing a lot more, which is great.

Yeah, definitely a lot more.

Like I said, like if you think back 10 years ago, even venue spaces weren't thinking about accessibility.

Yeah.

But what we're seeing now in the growth of this sector is custom created, you know, intended events that is using neuroaccessible.

Concepts as at the core, and that's great.

I reckon even in the last 12 months it's made a massive jump.

So around COVID events were sort of closing down, but I think it also gave us an opportunity to think about pivoting into like, what is accessible .

It was only when the majority goes, hang on, I can't access things.

That people started thinking, well how can I make it more accessible?

But we've been needing it all along.

It gave it a reshuffle.

That's a good, yeah, it gave it a reshuffle, but it's great to see now that there's more happening, um, in that space.

So definitely, uh, seeing and noticing that and whether they're getting it right or they're evolving their work to get it right is gonna be a journey.

I think.

Yeah.

It's, it's super interesting and you just got me thinking about I.

Quite randomly signed myself up to attend South by Southwest Sydney in about three weeks time.

And I can't really define why I'm going there.

And it's basically like tech and innovation and music and film and none of it completely makes sense for me and my various hats, except it does 'cause I'm getting very deep into like AI and coding and that's what I

was up to at 1:00 AM Don't even talk specifics 'cause I can't even remember.

But it's the innovation that got me about the conference.

Yeah.

But it's, you know, there's nothing necessary about this very big event, huge event that says I'm a safe space for neurodivergent people.

So I've already spent quite a lot of effort thinking, how will I make it safe for me?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I did just think to open up their, um, accessibility directory link.

And it of course starts with the idea that accessibility is about wheelchair access.

Ah-huh.

A hundred percent.

Let's just get clear.

I'm not saying that's all they do.

They do actually have sensory something in there.

Assistance animals, sensory spaces.

I'll be, I'll test them out.

Um, accessible seating, live captioning, sunflower lanyards.

I'll be wearing mine.

So assisted hearing technology.

Okay.

So they've got a lot, they've got adult changing facility, how to avoid intense lighting.

I'm fairly impressed now that I look at that.

So they're not just sticking with accessibility means ramps.

Yeah.

that's, that's good.

I mean, there's so many that are still thinking that accessibility is just about those obvious needs and not the invisible, hidden needs.

Yeah.

So, for audience clarification, how do you think about access and inclusion and what that means?

So there's two different things I think we need to think about.

Accessibility to me is about removing those barriers so that people can participate or like you can go to that event and obviously the wheelchair friendly entrances.

Um, you might do things like gender.

Well, we always have gender neutral, um, bathrooms, but we didn't always have that.

We've learned from our community.

So the first conference, that was the feedback.

Why do you have gendered bathrooms?

And we know in a community that's really important.

We might have things like, dietary requirements, sensory rooms.

But honestly, and we can talk a bit more around what we think we should include in accessibility, but inclusion is about adding that next layer of belonging and safety once you are there and once you're included.

And so what we do obviously is think about what that means for that particular community that are attending your events.

So it might be things like freedom to stim or move or encouragement to do that.

Um, I know at the conference we have wristbands to signal social energy levels so that, you know, you might be feeling depleted so you can put the wristband on so that you don't need to explain, Hey, you don't talk to me.

Um, we provide things like information on social hangovers, post-conference care, because to me that's about inclusion because you're thinking about not just making the barriers going away, but making the experience safer, for that person and also valued.

Making sure that people feel that they're not a burden for needing anything and it's just naturally part of your event.

And to me, that's like adding that next step of just accessibility.

So it's not just getting to, oh, okay, it's good enough.

You're going way further A genuine, welcoming Yeah.

A hundred percent of thinking.

Which, and again, you're not gonna get it right all the time.

Like this.

Every year we do our conference, we add another layer of learning mm-hmm.

To make it more accessible.

Because as our community gets more in touch with their need and understanding what they need, it's gonna become more nuanced.

And there might be competing needs.

And that's really an interesting layer that we are learning about now.

You'll never be a hundred percent accessible or inclusive for everyone.

You can just commit to evolving that.

And trying to think about those layers and the competing areas of those needs.

So, like yesterday we talked about a book we created and we try to make it, inclusive as many people.

And we made the paper not rough.

And we made the paper glossy , we made the font dyslexic friendly and we made the font bigger and we put chunks of information for a DHD people so that they don't have to read the whole chapter.

They can get the whole bit.

And then someone let us know that the paper was too heavy for them because they've got, a co-occuring physical condition, and they're used to lighter paper.

And so this is where, I guess it's like you're trying to do harm minimization or like.

Trying to reduce as many barriers as you can , and try and be as inclusive as you can and thinking about sometimes you're not gonna always be able to do it for every competing need.

True.

And there's still something to be said very much about thinking about your own capacity energetic, time, resources, financial, because there's a cost in many ways to putting in these layers of access.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna be honest here I'm gonna use dialectics.

Like I'm gonna try and be as accessible and inclusive as possible, and I need it to be sustainable for me as an organiser because as a recovering perfectionist and fawner and also a constant worrier and rejection, sensitivity I.

Have stayed up so many nights , worried that what I do is not good enough.

And that I'm sure people would relate if you're in the space of any creative field, whether it's creating an event or any business, if you have that AuDHD profile because, uh, you, you wanna do the right thing for your community, but you have to recognize your limitations and capacity because it will burn you out.

And we have been burnt out.

There's been times that post-conference, I've thought, I don't think I can do this again, because I've pushed myself so far.

Yeah.

And that then someone might give me a bit of feedback and I will just be like, oh my God, honestly, like, it will, it will hit me in the heart, like a million steak knives.

But then once I get into my wise mind of not responding with too much emotion and not thinking of it too, I need, um.

Too much analytics, and I can think in the middle road.

I'm not trying to train myself right now.

Yeah.

Is that, yeah, I can keep going, but I'm gonna have to put some boundaries on how much I, I do do that.

Yeah.

Keep it real with yourself this is so, so important.

These are not even points we had to chat about, but this No, it's just naturally true, isn't it, Adina?

Like it's, and the bigger your platform, the more you put yourself out to bigger and bigger things, you know, you'll get pushback from the noisy people.

Yes.

I'm just gonna say it doesn't always work if they've paid for tickets and things like that, but you can block and ignore people.

I just want people to remember that.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

You have to put safeguards in to protect your spoons because, again, like I said, on the surface, people might assume things about you, like you're a big organization, like you've got all this money and, and you've got like all this time and you've got a massive team and you are just like, you are on your computer trying to do the best you can.

And having said that, like there's certain lines that like I do it too.

I've been known to call out events that I don't think is doing the right thing.

There's certain lines that I think you need to commit to.

You have to know what your values are and your core must haves.

So I'm talking like, you know, for us at Yellow Ladybugs, once we weren't volunteer and we had funds coming in, we said the first thing we have to do is make sure we pay our contributors for their time.

And so that's a non-negotiable.

And there's other non-negotiables we have.

And so otherwise we just won't do that.

So we won't do the work.

So Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess like know what your limits are, but also know what your non-negotiables are to say, I'm not gonna put this on unless I've got a sensory room available, or I'm not gonna put this on unless I have closed captions or whatever it is.

It's such a great way to handle that, that tension between I wanna be accessible .

But maybe I'm a brand new event organizer But I don't maybe have the resources or the expertise.

So I love that starting with the core of your values and what your must haves are, your non-negotiables.

And then the rest is like you layer on You said this just before we were recording, which is about that idea.

It's like, but what is it that makes you, you?

Like, why are you doing your thing?

Yes.

As opposed to don't try and do someone else's thing.

Yeah.

Do you wanna share more about that?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Differentiation.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

I guess put our business hats on for now.

Like, I don't usually use these terms, but this is an evolving market and it's great because I can see our neurokin driving it hopefully more and more.

So, I mean, allies that are doing a good job, but I love seeing how neurokin are driving more neuroaccessible, neuroaffirming businesses events.

The only thing I would say is that if it becomes homogenous, like the same, same, same, same, same, same, same.

It starts to lose its impact and it gets diluted.

And so this is where I was thinking like for our own sakes, our own brand identity, our own, you know, why, what is it that's your unique.

Position, what is it that's your unique flavor?

Like what makes you different in what you are bringing?

What's your story?

What's your journey?

What's your take that's different and how are you going to share how that difference is with the community?

So they go, okay, well I won't go to the Yellow Lady Bugs Conference 'cause you know, I've done that, but this one is a bit more siloed in X, Y, Z and that makes sense.

Like, so it's about trying to find out what your unique position is.

because what I am starting to see is very similar presenters, which is great.

Like I do want all our presenters to get as many opportunities that as I can.

But if it becomes too similar, then Everything looks similar and nothing looks different.

And so it confuses our community and they'll like go, well what do I, what do I do?

In business terms, this is like about niching.

It's like, okay, well we're not just Yes.

Everything for everyone.

It's like, what?

Yeah.

What is this thing particularly for?

Yeah I actually, I will touch on niche while I remember it.

'cause this is sort of like a little side quest, but not really.

When I started Yellow ladybugs, people go, why can't you do it for this?

Why can't you do it for that?

Mm-hmm.

Why can't you do it?

And, and we have evolved, which has been great and we've evolved to the lifespan of adults and included resources.

But I was so headstrong on my mission and niche because I knew there was a gap.

And if I had diluted it based on what everyone was telling me to do, then it wouldn't have been what it is right now.

And, and it was hard because we had haters like, why aren't you doing boys and men?

Like, I totally get that.

That's a space that needs work.

But that's not my.

Thing, like there's enough room for you to do your thing.

There's enough thing for you.

It'd be my thing.

I was doing it at the time to meet the need of the kids that were falling through the cracks.

Yeah.

The high maskers, the internalizers.

And if I'd become similar like everyone else, then we would've been just like everyone else and we wouldn't have had the chance to have these kind of convos.

Be headstrong on your mission, I guess is the advice I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of audio books, and I rarely remember specifics.

Yeah.

And this time I did, and I even just managed to find the quote that is so, so spot on to underline what you're saying there.

So I'm in the middle of listening to Priya Parkers, the Art of Gathering, which, it's amazing.

I'm really enjoying it.

And she talks about generous exclusion, which is a fascinating concept considering we're talking about inclusion.

And there's even a quote here, excluding thoughtfully allows you to focus on a specific underexplored relationship.

When we craft purposeful gatherings, differences can be highlighted, which stimulate engaged conversation.

If we fail to draw boundaries in service inclusion, we dilute the gathering.

That's, you use that word as well.

And another one is she says if everyone is invited, no one is invited.

In the sense of being truly held by the group, by closing the door, you create room.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That makes so much sense.

And again, I'm gonna go back to what's your non-negotiables and your negotiables.

Yes.

So for me, learning about at the start, it was just, you know, we used language that we don't use now, right?

It was Aspy girls when we first started.

And so learning that our community has a crossover with gender diverse and there's a high correlation with trans.

So we, that was a non-negotiable expansion of our space because we didn't wanna go to cis males 'cause that's not what we were about.

But we will expand it where it's a non-negotiable in terms of inclusion where it makes sense for us.

The same in terms of making sure that we have a cross representation of people from a BIPOC community or a CALD community.

And so making sure that we evolve.

And we are inviting people into the space and we're making it as accessible as possible.

Yeah.

But not doing what others expect from us just because they want you to, be there.

'cause you'll just dilute what you are doing.

We've had people get really angry at us for that, but it wouldn't be where we are without it.

And I, and that goes back to what we're saying around what makes your flavor unique.

Because you need to get to know that, your relationship with that needs to be so strong.

Yes.

So that you don't dilute it along the way , especially ADHDers.

But like, woo, look over there.

Look over there.

And it's great for innovation and evolution.

Um, and especially for people pleasers.

If you are, if you're trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just something to think about in terms of your unique positioning and also your why.

Like when I taught event management, whenever our students would come up with a concept, it wasn't like the the five Ws.

We used to talk about the five Ws, and people used to think it was a what.

But it's the why.

You have to start with why.

Like, go back to your concept.

Why, why you doing what you're doing?

why do you wanna create what you wanna create?

Yeah.

And then who, what, where, when.

Yes.

And also the other thing in terms of like going back to my event management hat was the uh, wow factor.

Mm-hmm.

So what is the wow factor?

Uh, I always used to think 'what is the wow factor?' And often back then we used to talk about engaging the five senses.

But it's interesting 'cause I didn't, at the, I was exploring my neurodivergence back then as a sensory seeker.

That makes sense.

So all my events were always around making sure I engaged all five senses.

But maybe it's about how we disengaged some of those senses too.

Like if you're making it an accessible space.

and that makes me think then, there is a question we've got from one of our listeners about getting feedback, how do you get feedback from people I guess after events or even how do you gather from people what they need once they've registered?

Or how do you even broadly gather from your community?

Yeah.

What do they need as opposed to what would I make if it was just for me?

Yeah, well, um, yeah, I know.

Well I do think there's merit in what would I make if it was just for me.

'cause that's honestly how I started it.

So like that is so a beautiful way to start it.

And maybe I've had to evolve my listening because I am very mono tropic tunnel vision, um, hyper-focused, head down, bum up.

And so it's had to be intentional.

But also teaming up with people, that do have more of that.

And I now I sound like I don't care what I, my community think.

That's not what I mean.

But like Natasha, for example, my colleague is very much in tune with the community.

She's in all the groups.

She's listening.

She's got ear to the ground and, she's got a finger on the heartbeat of things.

So she'll, she'll come to me and say, this is coming up in the community quite a lot.

And then we'll unpack that and think about it.

But, so there's that natural, organic, flow of things, but there's also the intentional parts.

So like I said, it's all about building that relationship and trust with your community.

We don't go to our community a lot.

We get asked so many times to send out surveys.

Or research requests and there's good reasons for that, but I don't want us to feel like we're like a community to be sold to, or Guinea pigs.

So we really reduce the amount we go to our community and when we do ask, they're really generous in sharing their thoughts.

So we have to be really mindful that how often we go for advice to our community.

'cause they're low on spoons as well, and it's executive functioning challenges.

So if we ask questions, it might be on our Instagram stories, like, you know, really quick, easy, accessible ways to get information there.

And then, 'cause I know I never fill out stuff, like I'm like, who's got time and who's got capacity?

But if on a story there's like five options, I'm always the one like, it's a dopamine hit.

Yay.

Yeah.

Easy.

You can answer that.

And that's, I think that's one thing.

Um.

Is getting easy feed, easy ways of gathering feedback.

And then the other challenge is getting quality and not, I'm not just saying quality of responses, which is one thing, but also how close a match those respondents are for who is actually going to buy the ticket and attend your event for, that's true.

Yeah, that's true.

Can I just share one thing, which is working for me when I do speeches and presentations and stuff?

Yeah at the end of my slides, I've got a QR code.

If it's online, I also just paste the link into, the chat and then, uh, it's a one minute feedback and I just love that.

Talk about my podcast or something while they're like doing that.

Yeah.

I love that amazing feedback because it's, I make it clear, I literally call it one minute feedback and the questions are just, what is the thing you just completed?

I'm looking at it now.

Mm-hmm.

Would you recommend it to some, to another person from one to five?

Yeah.

That's the only essential, those two questions.

And then there's optionals, which I get great, great information from, which is, comments on what you enjoyed most?

Your biggest takeaway, what you learned, comments on what you didn't enjoy, or what I could change in the future?

Yeah.

And what does that leave you wanting to know more about?

And honestly, that last question Yeah.

Has been one of the biggest things in both my businesses that has guided what else will I create?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And so that, because you don't know what you don't, you don't know what people are needing or, or thinking at the time.

And it can change.

So yeah, that's, that's really important.

I'm just thinking, if I was doing a bigger event, I reckon I would put these up everywhere.

Yeah, that's true.

Yep.

And I'm gonna give you a bit of.

Like some history as to how we used to do it, how we do it now.

So we used to have volunteers that were specifically there.

They were event students that would observe the events.

So, one form of evaluation is observation.

So it can be someone that's got some tech tick boxes and saying, uh, you specifically have things that you're looking for.

Are there people in the queue?

Do people look frustrated?

Because not everyone's gonna share.

It's important.

So you can have someone there that's observing.

I made up a term, I think, I think called covert feedback.

Yeah.

Which is what the reading between the lines.

Does that exist or did I make that up?

It does exist.

I, I let I, but I'm glad you're onto it.

It's covert and overt feedback.

Okay.

I'm not taking credit for it anymore, but I'm glad it's, take credit.

Take credit.

I love it.

It is a thing, it was something I did mention in the.

Lecture way back when, because two of my students would come and that was their job.

They were the covert feedback people.

They would look and observe and they had a checklist and they would, um, and that was excellent, honestly, because when you are busy running your event, you're not thinking whether, you know, people are grumbling in the bathrooms or, you know, people are saying that the food's cold.

Like some people will share that afterwards.

But we get a whole nother angle of observation there.

That's, and you know, we can take so much for all other forms of groups and online and offline, but just that idea of observing the behavior or the Yeah.

Non behavior sometimes.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Um, even in the chat, if it's an online event and seeing like, not many people were asking questions like someone that's actively observing Yes.

Those kind of things.

I'm not great at reading between the lines.

I need a bit more overt stuff.

So for me it's like.

That's not my strength.

So finding someone that can, so everyone needs an Natasha, basically?

Yeah.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

A hundred percent.

And then obviously there's the more structured stuff.

So we did do full evaluation reports for a couple of conferences in a row.

So where we would send out and we would get like qualitative and quantitative stuff and, um, you know, on socials and we did a deep dive into that and.

And I'm gonna just keep it real because, you know, from a sustainability perspective, when you're starting to feel burnt out and rejection sensitivity kicks in, sometimes it's like, you know, the community can be insatiable.

And it's like, this year I don't really, I can't handle a deep dive into feedback.

We'll ask this, this, and this.

So I'm a bit more selective in how I'll get feedback, but sometimes my brain just needs a bit of a break and go I trust my work enough now that people will let us know if there's any major red flags, but I'll only ask here, here, and here.

So I don't know if that's the right answer.

It's probably not, but no, it's all learning and I'm just trying to keep it real for people that it's, um, feedback's really important.

The other piece I'll say, which I, I now say as I'm putting up my QR code for the feedback form is I promise them that I do not look on the day of me doing the thing.

Yes.

And I totally recommend that to everyone, the self restraint, to not look until a few days later.

That's a good point.

Guaranteed.

Especially if you're autistic and you're running any kind of training or event you are interested come, you are gonna focus on the, the two words out of the a hundred positive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's gonna just like kill your buzz.

Yeah.

Don't, just don't, don't even do that.

Don't, yeah.

it's kind of amazing and hilarious that of my list of like, let's say event planning checklist kind of stuff.

We didn't specifically really touch on any of it in a sense.

I think there's a lot of event planning info out there in the world.

But is there any kind of last thoughts on the, I guess the more logistics side, organizing the setup, anything that stands out for you?

Something we haven't touched on that is in that really affirming, inclusive angle that is different to what we're gonna find on Google.

Yeah, okay.

Again, going back to like my corporate days, um, I used to firstly think of what's the money can't buy element that I'm gonna bring to this experience.

Like, what is it that they can get at this event that they can't buy elsewhere?

Love that.

So it's a money can't buy experience and.

Then going into that, um, corporate world as well.

I used to always, I used to work with a lot of partners who are partners at accounting firms who were obviously neurodivergent.

And it really trained me into making sure that I had enough information to prepare, to give them so that they can do their job the best they can.

And so for me, accessibility in my events and logistics is around what information can I gather and provide and package in a way that my attendees will be able to use in a way that works for them.

So I think of it as stakeholders, who are my stakeholders.

and what level of interest may they have?

So attendees, well, they've got a high interest in.

Knowing how to access the venue or, how they can recover from the conference or how they can feel part of the conference or how they can, so I will make sure that the information I give them is personalized to them as a stakeholder group, right.

And so that's where we create, um, you know, the, that you would've seen it.

Our, our guide, um, that guests get, which is very personalized to that.

Very comprehensive.

It's very comprehensive.

It, it gives information on not just, and like, and I have to think of their needs.

So you've gotta put yourself in their shoes.

Like, is this person busy and a DHD and just wants to bottom line on the first page.

So I'll make sure I've got like, how to get there, um, what the transport areas are like.

Yeah.

Um, and that sort of thing.

And then.

Maybe someone is a deeper thinker and they wanna really read more information and go into detail, so we'll give them way more depth.

Mm-hmm.

If they want to access the depth, about things like, you know, accessing the sensory seeking space with photos so they can see it in advance, telling them what might huge be on the menu before so that they know what to, you know, expect.

and speaking of food, like just ask for what you want from the venue.

So Nice.

Um, you know, we want, I used to hate conferences where it was fancy food and people are still doing it.

So we had a meeting with the chef and we said, why can't it be hot chips and pieces of bread with butter and plain chip?

Like, why can't it be an all gluten free menu?

So I guess in terms of logistics, it's about what information you can get, but what changes you can make, and challenging the status quo.

there's no magical venue that's gonna be accessible, unfortunately, yet, unless we create a Gallo ladybugs venue space that we can all use.

Well, let's, don't encourage me be your future.

Don't encourage me, but let that point.

So, you know, you're, you're trying to shape as much as possible.

Don't, don't just say, this is how it's always done, and Yeah, it's, yeah, don't, and push back.

Like, why, why does it need to?

And, and give them reasons like, they're not gonna change unless, and it's unfair that the labor goes on to us that they haven't thought of this themselves.

But you can say like, you know, why do the lights need to be on?

Yes, there might be people that need it for accessibility for vision, but maybe that can be one table and we can have that space for vision impaired people.

Why can't we have the lights off?

How low can you get them?

Yeah.

Don't just show me what you think.

I'm gonna see it all the way off and I'm gonna, so 15%, is that the number I have in my head that you got the venue to do?

I think we got it done to 10%.

Yes.

But again, they were pushing at 50% and we were like, no, it's not accessible and it's not low enough.

Totally.

You know, and, and that evolved because we got feedback the year before.

So that's then the message for all aspects of these Yeah.

Event planning questions is really, I think, is that, yeah.

Well, what do you need?

What does the audience need?

Don't just accept what, it's always been done this way.

Yeah.

Yes, a hundred percent.

And think of all the things.

Temperature.

All the senses.

So it's not just, lighting or food, but what else?

Smells?

Yes.

Like are we gonna tell our staff not to wear heavy perfumes?

Mm-hmm.

Are we gonna put that on our social story?

Like if you can avoid perfumes?

Yeah.

You know, it's all the senses that you need to sort of think about, as well.

You'll just evolve it there's so much more.

Like I know that we could chat forever 'cause I actually yeah.

About 14,000 other questions I wanna ask you.

One of our fabulous members who lives in Queensland asked, well noted.

They've called out that it is autistic Christmas for us.

Um, and that it's based in Victoria and cost and logistics of getting to a physical conference.

Will there be smaller one day events similar to what is held at the other lady bugs where we have a chance to connect with our neurokin.

Mm-hmm.

And before I put you on the hook and say, can you commit to like a worldwide conference tour, maybe I'll just, oh my God.

Yes.

Please let that ate for a moment.

But I feel like in a way, part of what you and I were hoping to do in this chat is to sort of ensure that there's more affirming events Yeah.

Spreading,.

Everywhere.

Whether they're run by the fabulous.

Absolutely.

So what's your answer for this?

The pragmatic side of me says that the Department of Education sponsored this conference and they're Victorian.

And so this is born from their partnership in a way.

We've tried to get New South Wales on board Department of Ed, they just haven't.

Bitten off that.

Um, I've tried Queensland in the past to connect.

It hasn't been, you know, again, this is why sometimes it's serendipitous.

It's like the stars align sometimes with some connections and not others, as, it doesn't mean any less value on you and your work.

But I definitely want to, now that my kids are 18 and 16, they, I've been saying to the team like, we would love to do a bit of a road trip mm-hmm.

Around Australia.

But I also think, like you said, there's other conferences starting to pop up that we can't be everywhere at once.

And it's great to see more places , having events that are neuroaffirming.

'cause we need to get out of our bubble of people.

We're around that already sort of.

Preaching to the converted kind of thing.

I really feel like this message needs to get out to not just our neurokin, not just the people who get it.

Yes, it's validating for us all to hear this and experiencing it, but it's those remote like towns or those schools that are so like 10 years of like backwards of not even understanding the basics of autism, let alone, high masking, internalized your affirming messaging.

So I don't know how we're gonna tackle that as a community in terms of getting our reach there, but like, just spreading into these spaces and bubbles that are less.

Yeah.

Um, I mean that's a niche.

There's a niche now for someone like getting out, going to the remote parts where people are not even at that base level stepping away from that education space for a moment.

I remember having scrolled through the South by Southwest schedule, which is a very mainstream conference.

Yeah.

Um, and I remember seeing at least a few of the events and the speakers and the topics that are around something about different brains, whether it calls out Neurodivergence or not.

Yeah.

Had a d ADHD in the title.

So that to me is a little yes.

Signal.

And, and this could happen a hundred percent actually you are spot on.

The thing that we're not doing, and I feel like would be great, is seeing more autistic or neuroaffirming people out there who are consulting or speakers going into other conferences that aren't even thinking of this and, and getting a seat at the table or a spot on the stage so that we're going across the industry.

All the industries like you just said, and getting this message out to the people who need it.

It's happening.

Yeah.

It's happening.

It's happening and I'm really cheering it, the community on seeing it.

In terms of like social events, the thing that, again, part of business is also knowing your capacity and limitations.

And the more we were running those face-to-face events, like the events in NGV, the more our community wanted.

And we, for about 6, 7, 8 years we were doing them.

And we've had to pause them right now a because of funding constraints, but there's just too much demand.

Like there, honestly, it was just, it was really overwhelming.

And um, we've had to think of another alternative.

What we're launching is.

An online way for people to connect with a community.

So, at the moment, we've had to be innovative in that we've called it Local Connect.

So families can go on, um, put their postcode in, register, do the training, and then they can find other families in their area to connect with.

'cause we knew we weren't gonna be able to connect people in WA remote or northern.

Like we really wanted a way for families to connect, but we're now gonna do it for adults.

So adults can join and based on interest, like say your interest is.

What's your interest?

Adina?

nail polish, Snowboarding, nail polish.

Yeah.

So it might be that, it might be, uh, you know, for me it's like sling, or it might be neuroqueer theory, whatever it is, you can search our community by that.

And I guess my point is that we've been able to try and fill that gap of our community needing that connection, but we weren't able to sustain it in the way we were doing it.

And we've had to pivot.

And I love that.

It's been hard because we know that that's our c community need more face-to-face connections, but we've had to keep it real with ourselves and, and work out what's sustainable.

And so it's a beautiful example of a pivot that means you are looking after your capacity.

Yeah.

And still the needs, but you're going from organizer to connector.

Yes.

Yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

It feels like a natural evolution.

And I will put a link to all of this stuff in the show notes.

I'll just say, Katie, if you ever wanna come back, thank you.

That's really lovely.

It's an honor.

Another specific chat or like audience folks listening.

Give us feedback if you wanna hear more.

Yeah.

Open to it.

Definitely.

This has been really sweet and really, really helpful.

I don't usually take that hat off of just talking around, you know.

Autistic girls, women and gender diverse needs and it's been really cool to sort of unpack my own journey and it's felt so safe to do it with you, Adina, so thank you so much.

I love it.

I love all the roles that we've had with each other and this is, I know, so, so useful.

I don't even know whether I'm, like, I've run groups and things many times and I, I have a community and a membership, but, uh, now I'm, you're gonna have me like thinking about a conference or something.

Nevermind.

I'll just, well, yeah, there's, there's space for us all.

I love it.

But thank you so much for your time and generosity in sharing and yeah, my pleasure.

Anyone get in touch with Katie, I'll pop up links in the show notes.

Thank you.

Thank you Katie.

Bye.

Thank you for being open to learning and unlearning and to listening to the perspectives and experiences of Neurodivergent folks.

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a friend, share a screenshot on Instagram, pop a five star rating and a review in your favorite app.

And join me on Instagram and Facebook.

I'm @play.Learn.chat.

Have a beautiful day.