[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to Power Athlete Radio, a podcast dedicated to empowering your performance every damn day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Join former NFL Pro and Power Athlete founder John Wellborn as he dissects the greatest minds in strength, conditioning, and more.

[SPEAKER_00]: So whether your goal is to be the hammer, destroy mediocrity, or simply move the dirt, you've come to the right place.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now with the warm-up done, let the gains begin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, welcome to a special episode of Power Athlete Radio.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm joined by Dr.

Ben Skutnik and Mr.

Arash Sufiani.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we are here to discuss the eat the weakness and hit a couple different topics.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk a little bit about protein.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk a little bit about compensatory acceleration versus VBT.

[SPEAKER_02]: And really just what it takes to get lean is, you know, I sent out a newsletter today that talked about bulking.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted to talk a little bit about bulking as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So cover a couple topics today and welcome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Stoke to be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So where do you guys want to start?

[SPEAKER_02]: You want to talk in this protein deal?

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, first I want to say, uh, or I want to ask a rush.

[SPEAKER_03]: What do you weigh in right now?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm still trying to chase you, I think in terms of the challenge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, dude, I'm cruising at two forty and I'm eating an in unmeasurable amount of pasta and rice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this last week, uh, Mercedes has been trying to [SPEAKER_01]: Buy my love with food.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because every night.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's that like?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's so nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Last night she made like a little halo top with baked apples and.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's supposed to do this before the ring.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now she got the ring.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering how this works.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand either, but she's trying to fatten me up, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with the increased carbon take, all I felt is a better mood.

[SPEAKER_01]: more energy and I think once we got down to this level of leanness and we were talking about it earlier in the challenge we're like hey and last week or last couple of weeks is play around with increasing the carbs and keeping the fats low and I think it's really been working for me so well yeah [SPEAKER_02]: One of the issues we ran into, especially when you start dropping fat really low, is there's some hormonal issues, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So, if you're not doing some stuff to maximize your hormones, like, you know, DHA and, you know, fish oil and just some of these other kind of levers that you can pull.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think if the fat's go too low, I think we were saying what about, like, point three.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Rams.

[SPEAKER_03]: Literaturel say somewhere around that point three-gram per pound.

[SPEAKER_03]: Have this kind of one body.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that tracks because I've been taking in daily fish oil, asked the Xanthan.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, three to four eggs every day?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think as long as you're getting a little bit of fat, I know, like I was telling you guys earlier, the conversation with Paul Carter about this yesterday and his new hill that he's dying on is protein intake is way too overblown.

[SPEAKER_02]: He thinks eating a high protein diet makes people hungrier [SPEAKER_02]: and less satisfied.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, everything I've ever read talks about protein making people more saturated.

[SPEAKER_02]: But he also did make an interesting point that if you push the carbs to later in the day for like a big final meal, you go to bed and actually have a better sleep experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like I told you, like I was doing the exact opposite, I was really pushing all of my carbs pre-imposed workout and then was eating no carbs, just protein and fat, and maybe like a little bit of Greek yogurt with the fat free stuff before bed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And somewhere around five or six hours, like I didn't get seven hours in a while, [SPEAKER_02]: And last night, seven hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I pushed it out and just kind of changed in there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's also changed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe when you get in the same rut, you need to pull a different level.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I think one thing that we kind of forget, you know, I would say Paul's probably not totally off base with his idea there, but you know, we kind of have to look at it holistically and who are we talking to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like, what we're almost twelve weeks into this, we are really lean right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our needs might be different than somebody who's just starting out because also we are pretty dialed in either through internal will power or the shit talking that comes from the rest of the group if we fall off, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: when when we're dealing with you know whatever the equivalent of like highly trained but nutritional side people yeah i think we can get in the nitty gritty on that but when you start talking about that kind of stuff to somebody who is just starting a weight loss journey [SPEAKER_03]: It's one, the math is a lot easier, just say one gram per pound.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's not a negative effect of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's not anything bad that comes from that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then also, most the time when people find themselves in that place, they've been combating like the hyper palatable foods.

[SPEAKER_03]: And as delicious as a steak is, you know, some salt, put some seasoning on it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It still doesn't qualify as that hyper palatable, because it's not that mix of carb and fat.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're also trying to break those habits.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if we steak versus cupcake, [SPEAKER_03]: right and so if we if we load up protein then that prevents them from access or at least putting within their calories those hyper palatable foods so there's also that like neuro home hormonal side that we're trying to break as well um and when somebody's just starting you don't want to get too complicated with it yeah when you start talking about timing and and how to backfill and all that kind of stuff will be too much for them [SPEAKER_02]: Like the way I look at it is, you know, using nutrition coach.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're the copilot and they're flying the plane and you're helping them land the plane and beginning of the journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything's easy, you know, hey, like we're going to just kind of, you know, reduce some calories.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to set the back rows up and then we're going to let you exercise into a deficit.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to do this training.

[SPEAKER_02]: and you kind of do it and they start making gains and then it's the closer you get to the runway and you land it that's when you really need your co-pilot and what's been great about this eat the weakness challenge that we've been doing in preparation for hammer ninety is we've had each other to kind of help land the plane you know all of a sudden like you know like we were saying we were stalling out on weight and then there was like a miraculous deal where all of a sudden like click down but the [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, miss, I guess you could say, because nobody's really okay with just being hungry.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there wasn't some, like, buddy on the outside, whether it was you or a roster, you know, of mad or whoever's in our challenge.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's the support where it's like, man, I'm really hungry.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, for example, yesterday was first day at school.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a good across came home and Kate had cupcakes for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I saw those cupcakes and I just fucking walked away.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm not going to eat those.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's going to derail me.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, in years past, I would have been like, did you get a cupcake for me?

[SPEAKER_02]: And she don't, she only got two, you know, cash can't have one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she didn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, I'm not eating them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was pretty funny to see those and just be like, I'm going to make a B line out of the kitchen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go and I'm going to go write my exercise bike.

[SPEAKER_01]: When your coach and people have been at the beginning, how important is weighing foods versus like using approximate measurements like a cup of rice or a handful of on almonds or do you get into the needy gritty on weighing people's foods or how do you approach it?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so it really depends on their history in terms of what they've done before.

[SPEAKER_03]: If they're comfortable with that idea of weighing and measuring, then we'll probably start there.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if they, if this is like true blue, like, hey, I'm trying to make a lifestyle change for the first time, yeah, it's just trying to make it as simple as possible.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I have, you know, Harry Heptensaw actually made a pretty [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty sweet info graphic that I send them where essentially is a plate and it just sections it out.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just like make your plate look like this.

[SPEAKER_03]: This much should be filled with some kind of protein.

[SPEAKER_03]: This much for some kind of veg and this with some kind of like starchy carb or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because really, I think [SPEAKER_03]: with all the information out there, people feel like it has to be really intricate and really complex, but especially if you're just starting a simple change of really just like mindfulness and by plating it like that, that brings mindfulness to what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_03]: That will change things because now you're actively thinking about forming your meal as opposed to mindlessly just going to the cupboard or the fridge, just taking food out and putting in your mouth, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if they're new to it, then we keep it super simple, portion sizes, and really kind of the first thing that I get to work with people on is schedule your meals during your day.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like when are you going to eat?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because that's where people really get jammed up, I think, especially towards the end of the day.

[SPEAKER_03]: Breakfast is pretty easy for people to schedule, but then it's like set a time for dinner.

[SPEAKER_03]: When are you going to have dinner?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because [SPEAKER_03]: you know how many times you know you've got you got home from six blades or whatever it's just like man I'm starving right now I'm just gonna smash something and you have no plan or you think like hey I'm gonna make dinner but then something comes up and now it's two hours later and you kind of in panic mode so that's really like the first step is what's what's your you know timing not necessarily nutrient timing but just like within your schedule when are we like figure that out and then we can put together really simple meals with just [SPEAKER_03]: protein veg and some kind of carb.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the weighing and measuring we get to because it's just like strength training, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Use the use house money first.

[SPEAKER_03]: The basics like master those days make all the progress there and then we can turn these other dials.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: My parachute for late night panic is Kansas attuna.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mm.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I make like a little tuna salad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I chop up pickles and onions.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's delicious.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, it's so great.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a little Mediterranean salad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I make out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's my little parachute I like to pull in case I get into a panic or turkey sandwich.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, ever go wrong with the turkey sandwich and cheddar.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not even in the fridge.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Turkey sandwich, and then the marks, what is it like, Mark's primal has that, that mayonnaise.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like really tangy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like that, like primal mayonnaise.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that, like, a totally dude.

[SPEAKER_02]: That on a turkey sandwich is like a home run for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, I do like a turkey sandwich.

[SPEAKER_02]: What about one of the mistakes I see people make early on, and I'm sure you've seen this too, is the always just wanna cook cars.

[SPEAKER_02]: and I think like I've done that for years being like all right you know cyclical low carb low carb low carb the problem though is you get extremely depleted when you start cutting carbs and a lot of the weight gain that you see or I'm sorry weight loss that you see initially is just water weight so I always look at like pulling carbs is like the final thing not the first thing and so when you get into this it's like all right like the [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we've been writing for this every day, athlete and you know, ended up looking at all that content and taking it and like basically putting it into a newsletter just to be able to provide people.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the one that I sent out today had to do with bulking and we're actually talking about leaning, but the [SPEAKER_02]: Like looking at like, um, and I appreciate you and Waldman sent me all those, like, protein refeiting stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like when they over ate on protein, people did not gain extra muscle.

[SPEAKER_02]: They did lose fat, though, because the thermogenic effect went up, which I thought was fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in a sense, like, if you overeat the protein and you're cutting the deal, but when you look at how people lose weight, it really comes down to [SPEAKER_02]: reducing calories.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got to eat in chlorocrystription.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, whether you exercise into chlorocrystription or you eat into chlorocrystription, those are kind of the two levers.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot easier.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I just did, um, thirty, five minutes on the Echo bike and ended up burning like on the Morpheus, like, four hundred seventy five hundred calories.

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's probably about two thirds of that cupcake.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like I think people look at it and they're like like I kind of equated out of my car.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do that burn.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even burn a full cupcake because I kept you because probably six or seven hundred calories.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll talk more about the cupcake.

[SPEAKER_01]: Please.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, they were the like chocolate ones with white and they had like blue on top.

[SPEAKER_02]: They were so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: like looking at that, like, you know, as I'm writing the bike, I kind of started looking at like, all right, like, hey, how many calories are in this?

[SPEAKER_02]: How many calories are this?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then mentally, I kind of like look at the bike, but then it's a writing, I'm like, shit, man, it's a lot easier to just not eat that food than it is for me to eat that food and then get on the bike and hope to God that I can burn those calories.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm kind of going back to what Rosh said.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people don't know how many calories are in those foods.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I tell my clients.

[SPEAKER_03]: So first kind of going back to what you said, yeah, my strategy with the clients is we want to be in a chlorocrystriction with as many carbs as possible, however we get there, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's kind of the idea.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I also tell them like, hey, if you're gonna kind of waste your calories or blow your calories, do it on something worthwhile.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what I tell them is like, if you are at the a lot of times what people find themselves is they're at the grocery store and in the checkout lane and they're taking a while and they see the candy bars is like, um, just gonna snack a candy bar.

[SPEAKER_03]: like a candy bars, three hundred calories, like a snickers or something like that's about three hundred calories and they don't really have a context for what that takes to burn off three hundred extra calories because when we get like our watches or whatever that say calorie burn [SPEAKER_03]: They forget that our bodies always burn in calories, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a resting metabolic rate.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that calorie burn that you see like, oh, I burned four hundred calories.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, but if you weren't exercising, you probably would have burned two hundred calories just in that time alone anyway.

[SPEAKER_03]: So they, they kind of, they're not ready to do that kind of math on the fly.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, the whole idea with that mindfulness size, like, yeah, also become mindful of what these other things consist of.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and especially those baked goods from the store.

[SPEAKER_03]: Flip over, like next time you're at the store, flip over the nutrition label and just look at the serving size and how many calories, because it's insane how many calories they can pack in a very small serving size, which is usually smaller than what we are going to eat, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it is.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot easier.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that was a strategy I took with, um, eat the weaknesses.

[SPEAKER_03]: I stair step my calories down as far as I could.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think I got it down to about twenty one hundred before I started adding in more work.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we had our daily training, but before I started adding in that extra cardio and stuff, I was like, I want to try and get as low as I can.

[SPEAKER_03]: while still just doing the bare essential training side before trying to outwork it because there's also diminishing returns there.

[SPEAKER_03]: The fitter you are, the more work you're going to have to do to burn those calories, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So it is a strategy to exercise out the calories, but yeah, much more fan of let's get control of the intake first and then we can start talking about the extra training or what that looks like.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, the other cool studies that I ended up looking at had to do with like the non-exercise activity levels, the neat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's pretty fascinating that people that are fidgety need, you know, knee movers that, you know, get up every two, you know, twenty minutes and they walk and they do this, like my wife, he's just like exercise body, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: those people stay dramatically leaner than the people that are more sedentary, even when my calories are equated.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, they took like different groups and they kind of said you looked at them, set calories at the same macros, everything the same, and then one group was like dramatically leaner than the other.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, there is a actual effect of just being active.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think people in their mind are like, okay, I'm going to go to the gym, I'm going to go on the bike.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what about all my other stuff?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Arashas, you know, you know, Jets two or three times in a day teaches Jets.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, his amount of just like none.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess you could say non-focused, weight training and conditioning, just from being one in the gear, taught here in Texas, you're working with these kids, you're probably sweating.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, people definitely sweating.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they just discount it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a major flaw.

[SPEAKER_02]: So just being able to be continuously active and I always like stand effortings, deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or was Mark Bell that after every meal go for, I think I know it's standard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like a ten to fifteen minute, just a little easy walk, it helps with metabolism, it helps with insulin sensitivity, digestion and whatnot, just getting out and moving.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I fucking believe in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that is probably one of the best ways I've done it, just go on take the dog on a short walk and come in right after every meal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, next thing, you know, you've accumulated like, you know, let's say, forty five, sixty minutes of just getting out and moving.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because dogs are getting fat too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's kind of funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like when your dog gets fat, nobody's like, oh, we got to do something for him.

[SPEAKER_02]: We do.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just kind of spoof back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because we ended up fostering those puppies.

[SPEAKER_02]: which is a whole different plug-in problem in my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there are puppies and they need a lot of distractions.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, he was giving him these bones and then Biddy was going around and stealing their bones.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he was eating these like six to eight treats a day.

[SPEAKER_02]: And all the sudden he saw him like whaddling in and I was like, oh my God, when did you become a hip-a-potibus?

[SPEAKER_02]: And Kate's like, I think he's stealing the puppies toys and so or they're treated.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if he had to go on a little diet and you know what, like in two weeks, totally fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ways came back, everything was tapered.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and kind of to what Arash is doing with his, he brought all those carbs back.

[SPEAKER_03]: One thing that we do know that we see when people get into a deficit, a sustained deficit, you subconsciously are unconsciously stop being active throughout your day, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is the thing people think like, okay, yeah, scheduled my exercise, but then [SPEAKER_03]: they don't realize when you're not exercising, you're just being sedentary.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so kind of like bringing those carbs back gives your body a little bit more energy throughout the day to continue to be active.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I think people [SPEAKER_03]: Exercise is a great way to burn calories.

[SPEAKER_03]: No doubt about it, but it really is probably in the hierarchy of things for weight loss.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's probably like the third most important thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you get your diet in check.

[SPEAKER_03]: You continue to live an active lifestyle, whether that's, yeah, going for walks or just getting up and moving around every hour for a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's the structured exercise, because really, [SPEAKER_02]: I mean even with the training we're doing it's pretty high volume but what we're in the gym for sixty seventy five minutes like we're not working I don't know how much volume it is in terms of the grand scheme but the one thing that I figured out a long time ago that if we can work to like so [SPEAKER_02]: There's kind of an inverse relationship, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the heavier the percentage you work, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The more intensity you have, the bigger margin of air you have, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So like if you're lifting thirty percent of your one RM and you need to do it for thirty one reps to drive hypertrophy, whatever, and you do it twenty nine like you miss your mark.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're squatting, you know, five hundred pounds on the half-fields and you're like, you know, shooting for five reps and you get four, like you're still driving it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think with writing that program what I'm trying to do is give just enough feed or sets, like one or two to kind of get you ready and primed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then let you go a ham on that final set and then making sure that we're getting enough touches on really the first set, like that first deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like when I went back and looking at some of Chris Beard's [SPEAKER_02]: They were talking about like the greatest adaptation for hypertrophy comes from that first stimulus.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like if you do like let's say two or three warm upsets the feeders and then that like one big set every set after that's kind of diminished.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what I did is I just put a little bit more instead of being like, okay, we're gonna do three exercises.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're just gonna get maybe four or five.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's gonna be dips in this and so we get a lot of first.

[SPEAKER_02]: exposures.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the one thing that I figured out, you know, we always talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you die protein dye and cloric restriction in you with heavy weights, you can put on muscle and environment and lose fat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we figured that peace out.

[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing is just trying to be able to manage the carbohydrates, not necessarily for, you know, let's say muscle gain, but just like sleep and recovery that carbs play a vital role in this thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what this is really taught me, but I think in the training, I PR just about everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I ended up going for fifty-five on the...

[SPEAKER_02]: On the half field to the day and I was like dude, I'm gonna go five hundred five fifty five and then all of a sudden I looked around and I was like a rock had to bail and like DJ wasn't there and I'm like fuck dude if I get fucking pinned or something happens like I'm gonna be all here by myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just kind of kept it at four fifty five and then I've, you know, Matt sent me that five hundred and I was like motherfucker.

[SPEAKER_02]: I should have done it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they said me four eighty and I was like God damn it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I ended up hitting one thirty five and one forty's for eights on the slight dumbbell incline the other day.

[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, and then yesterday I did, you know, we're doing the bench on the close career.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, I had to do upper.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we did, you're going to laugh on Monday, Jacob, brought in the camera.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had to shoot a bunch of content for the demos on train heroic on the training.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we ended up doing a bunch of upper body stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was kind of smoked.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I ended up taking yesterday off and hitting upper yesterday.

[SPEAKER_02]: But man, I felt like dude ended up doing, I think it was like, two, seventy, five for like legit.

[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot what it was.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like six to eights and like really good pop.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I could have gone through fifteen if I had a spot.

[SPEAKER_02]: But man, I like I'm peering everything, which I know means if I'm actually getting stronger, putting on muscle and peering.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that's another thing that people mess up.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not getting stronger in the gym, there's a good chance that you're not putting on muscle too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's some other ways to do it in some other level of central nervous system efficiency and whatnot.

[SPEAKER_02]: But people are like, how do I know if I'm putting on muscle?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, if you're getting stronger and putting on muscle, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I think a lot of people just assume I'm on a deficit, so I'm gonna be tired.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not gonna perform well.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what all of us kind of throughout the window right away.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're like, no, we're still gonna hammer it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and the other side of it is as you lean out that systemic inflammation drops and like I'm an early morning in the gym guy and for the longest time, [SPEAKER_03]: anything, hinge-related, dead-lifts, heavy-deads or things like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm just not ready that early in the morning for that, but like, this morning I, who is, it, it will get, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: But this morning for the RDLs, I hit three, fifty-five for six, which is a PR, and that's because I, like, I just feel better.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, even with my sleep, some compromise too, because the low carb or whatever, but just my body feels better when I'm moving.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, the idea, I mean, I think we talked about a while ago, but the idea that you, [SPEAKER_03]: You can't make gains while in a deficit.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just doesn't really hold true unless you're talking about getting stage ready at like five percent.

[SPEAKER_03]: But for the average person, you're never going to be there.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, you can continue to get strong while getting lean.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just like a double bonus because then you build that muscle, you have less fat.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so you catch yourself in the mirror and it's like, God damn, I look good right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the confidence gets boosted.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I was texting back with Jen Weaderstrom.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she was kind of asking me, she's like, you know, how's the challenge going on?

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, pretty good.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, can you send me, are you taking pictures?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like update photos?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, yeah, I got one, so I send it over to her.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, hey, I don't want this to be weird because we're friends and she's like, it's not weird.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, we'll just make sure it's weird.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I shot her that one that I posted in our discord.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, man, like the, like, she's like, I don't like, like the inflammation just dropped.

[SPEAKER_02]: yeah that was like her first comment she's like man like not a super lean but like the end like I could see all the inflammation she's like are you feeling I'm like off I just haven't slept well and she's like well you look way less inflamed but I'll tell you I don't really like this is another weird one uh when I trained you know like the next morning always kind of get up and have a little bit of body ache uh I have not had body ache [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, I went and trained with a sleeping VH with like Nikki Rod, the B team guys, and I figured I'd be pretty beat up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I woke up the next day and was like, shit man, can we go back again?

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel fucking great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Even with compromise sleep, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: We typically think like if you're getting poor sleep, you're gonna feel like shit and for how poor, because I've been four hours, four and a half hours for the last few weeks, and it's like man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Three months ago, four and a half hours, I would have been dead to the world, not functional.

[SPEAKER_03]: But now, I'm still able to move pretty well, still able to train, and things like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's, and you can see it in our faces.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you, your face, a rash, Matt, like we're all leaned out of a face, a rush.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a rush fucking completely transformed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I was looking at those before and afters, and like the only, the only gripe I can make is like, is the skin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so at your heaviest year, we're about three, sixty.

[SPEAKER_01]: Three, fifty, five.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: January, first.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, I'm not giving you three, sixty, three, fifty, five.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the problem is is then when a rush first showed up to train with me, he was like two, ninety, five.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he was like, what do you think in this?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, we got a cut and he cut down into the two, fifties and did amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it takes time for that skin to kind of like, you know, the elasticity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And some people get really, you know, go get surgery and whatnot.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I couldn't believe when you posted those pictures, I was like, the fact that you looked that skinny at two, forty blew my fucking mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I've noticed the skin started to tighten up a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it just takes time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, look at pregnant women.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Kate was like, you know, stretched out with twins.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she doesn't really had any of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it just takes time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of that is the mental battle as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even with people that, you know, maybe they don't use exercises the main lever, even if they use, you know, GOP ones as the lever to drive some weight loss.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think still at the end of the day, you got to be okay with who you're going to look like on the other end, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you talked about that extensively.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You were like, I was like, hey, John, do you think I could stand again, twenty more pounds of muscle?

[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not you need to cut some weight right now, but then I was like what am I gonna look like on the other and he's like well you gotta be okay with the surprise because at the other end you might just you might lose too much muscle.

[SPEAKER_01]: So part of the the [SPEAKER_01]: Main theme of it was maintaining strength, continuing strength, strength, strength so that we could maintain muscle, even as I drop, so that at least I had some semblance of a muscular look.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so this is another piece of Paul and I ended up talking about his theory and this is backed up and I put it into the, into the bulking email that I sent out today for the, you know, what's in the mind of John Vaughan or from the mind of John Vaughan.

[SPEAKER_02]: The leaner you are, the less systemic inflammation you have, and the greater the hypertrophy effect.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, he was like, you know, because when I talked to him on my gay man, you know, because he's like, oh, you know, nobody should bulk.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, if you're a high school football player, you're skinny and you want to go up and get bigger, like you got to bulk a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, well, the leaner you are, which is I think what we've seen, the leaner you are, the easier the bulk is.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're twenty percent body fat in your bulk, you're going to end up at thirty and you're going to be in a disaster.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you can get down to ten or twelve and then bulk up, you'll actually put on muscle and size faster than than fat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the one thing which was interesting, uh, and I [SPEAKER_02]: when we've done nutrition challenges before and we've done them with the block one coaches and whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've just like leaned and got people smaller but then realizing that they didn't spend thirty years lifting fucking heavy weights and when they strip it down they don't have the base.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think what was different with the rush is one he had been strength training for a long time.

[SPEAKER_02]: We knew what I was going to do with him in the gym and we spent two fucking years just literally smashing this and it's kind of funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: I actually [SPEAKER_02]: had like a moment of regret realizing that in that two plus years in that cycle that we trained the guys for ADCC, we needed to take more breaks.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it was just too much.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like for VH, it was, you know, Felipe is, Felipe's like a golden retriever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like if you throw something he'll come back and like he'll do it as many times like and this is part of the problem is that like a Russian a Russia's got such incredible mental fortitude that like it's true just like I'll keep fucking showing up sled dog [SPEAKER_02]: And then you got a fleet who's like the golden retriever where it's like just fucking throw it and I'll keep bringing it back and I think with the age like he was in that deal and I just think that like I needed to give just more breaks.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're needed to be like every four to six weeks we needed to take like a [SPEAKER_02]: a week off a d-load because we didn't really they like they showed up and we fucking hammered and because the way I looked at it is like if you're getting ready for the biggest contest and I think what happened was when we got we at the training was so severe on both the mat and everybody wanting this I just think that like I think [SPEAKER_01]: Also part of the thought process was also a linear progression, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You take somebody with such a low training age that we could continue to see some linear progress and they did and they did, but I think to your point is at one point maybe a year and a half in that would have been the good time to be like, all right, let's back off a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's adjust a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for instance, Philippe now now he's gotten to the point where he can touch the weights two to three times a week and still get some stimulus and I think he's actually coming to his own.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: He just posted a picture when he just got here and his face was two times the size.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then seeing him now it's like he actually has his man body now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I watched both he and the age go from like physical and maturity to fucking monsters.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, I remember when Sean's you brought him in and he said, Oh, yeah, the professional athletes are professionals.

[SPEAKER_02]: They've lifted weights and then they came in that first day and I'm like, man, they never lifted weights.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we started like and and because you know I'm thinking like oh these guys are fucking pros this guys like you know the best I mean let's go and then I was like man these guys are true beginners and then we figured out and and there were a lot of mistakes that I made obviously but like end up figuring out and this was you know [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I run into something that's a little confusing, I reach out.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got like you and Waldman and Tom and different people to reach out to and be like, hey, what do you think of this and this and they'll send me stuff and then I got to read it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like there was a pretty interesting thing with like that came from Dr.

Cramer in his book where they talked about higher order, decision making on the brain the heavier the weight.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when you start getting over like eighty eighty five percent ninety percent like you end up reaching different kind of levels in the brain like accessing different cortex and like those high decision making ones happen under a heavy load where all of a sudden you get underneath it and like you feel the weight and all of a sudden you like kind of click out of your like uh...

normal brain you get into this like survival mode like that reaches into it and uh...

heavy force ended up being like the magic number for for what we were starting to do [SPEAKER_02]: So everything became like a heavy four linear progression, heavy four, heavy four, heavy four, heavy four, and that ended up just paying massive fucking dividends.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then realizing, and this is another one, when you talk to your athletes, guys, you get on the bike, and we're doing superhuman protocol too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I always go talk like, how you feeling?

[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody was like, yeah, we're fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there was no like, but that's also what I call the silent Brazilian.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, that's, that's just high performers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: High performers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are they going to do?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just where like this joke that we had where I would like, I call it the silent Brazilian and those guys are just like, like, it's not in their nature to complain.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, I've never heard Philippe in all of the years that I've known him, be like, I'm like, oh, it's like, how are you doing?

[SPEAKER_02]: How's everything?

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even if he looks down at the ground as a coach on boom, he's like, I love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's great to see you, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, when I was at the B team, we were warming up.

[SPEAKER_02]: He came in a little late.

[SPEAKER_02]: He saw me as eyes lit up.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, oh, I'm so happy you're here.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, like, he, he, Felipe is really chicken soup for myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if those puppies are for my kids, like, Philippe and the guys, and seeing you and the age, it was good for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there was a little bit of mistake, but I'll tell you, we were also doing diet, you know, we got, we were doing a good low carb with Victor just because he, you know, was packing a lot of like, you know, kind of those areas for insulin sensitivity, you know, Felipe, we ended up putting on, you know, he went ahead and I've gone up twenty pounds.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we cut him back down to like one ninety something and like just fucking looked amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean he bolted into it and then we cut him but he he did it right you know eight eight it's on a carves started doing a bunch of extra training three times a day with weights.

[SPEAKER_02]: So and then they're at the right age you know twenty five years old is the fucking golden number.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, that while you were talking about that, that reminded me, I needed to tell you.

[SPEAKER_03]: So my wife and I trained at the same time.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's following Jack Street, and this is her third cycle on Jack Street.

[SPEAKER_03]: So she did shadow, and then what was before shadow?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, fourth, fourth.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so now she's in this cycle, and so she's doing her bent over rows today.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she turned to me, and we work out with her headphones on, because the girls are asleep, so we can't have the music gone.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she turns to me and he's like, take your headphones off.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, what's up?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm kind of trained in right now and I don't want to be bothered.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she was like, why doesn't everybody do jack street?

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, what do you mean?

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, I have muscles.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's been trained for a long time.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, I have muscles that I've never had before.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, that's from Liftin heavy weights.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like you've never lifted heavy weights this much.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, well, I have.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, no, you did, you know, kind of the CrossFit thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you touched a heavy barbell once or twice a week.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe for one lift.

[SPEAKER_03]: and so it's it's really interesting watching her kind of go through this like training understanding of training transformation of like oh this is how I get the body that I want because we hear with you know with a lot of women it's like why don't want to get big and it's like there's a lot of things that are preventing you from getting big but you want to look strong you want to look muscular and so she had that epiphany today and I was like I got to tell John that well there's um uh [SPEAKER_02]: Like as I was obviously digging in on some of this like our hypertrophy stuff, just because I feel like the amount of research that we can access is really good and you know, Walman sends me all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was like a pretty interesting one that talked about different rep ranges.

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of the reason I dug into that is because Paul's like, oh, nobody needs to do more in six or eight reps.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, ah, I disagree.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that there's different stimulus in there's different like appearances.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you have to like train within the spectrum.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then his home boy, like I said, Chris Beardsley, put out like a little infographic that showed like like [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one to four, five to eight, and then like, twelve to fifteen and was like, you know, basically if you want to physically be developed in a way that's, you know, the most advantageous way, you need to be able to sprinkle in all of these different rep ranges.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I kind of looked at the recommendations and then went and looked back at like Jack Street and Grindstone and all of the training programs, [SPEAKER_02]: Like, our ship fits like a glove.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, it's kind of neat over time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of the reason I've, like, just to give you guys a heads up that I'm just not some egghead who's reading this is because for the everyday athlete thing we're doing for SI, they wanted a lot of like string training, performance, longevity articles.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I've been doing a bunch of those and trying to get everybody to do that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, there's some really good research that you can go through and aggregate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, hey, you know, this is what this one says to support it and to link back.

[SPEAKER_02]: But digging through that stuff, I realized it's always nice to get all this cutting edge research and then realize that a program like Jack Street and grindstone, which is kind of a choose your own adventure minimal effective dose.

[SPEAKER_02]: But for a lot of the guys that are, let's say, ship workers or dad, or even doing jets, grindstone, fucking ramps people up too.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, if you're doing everything, it tends to work.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think one of the caveats [SPEAKER_02]: Here is, you know, if you look at a program and it's just like four to six, four to six, six to eight, you know, and it's just like this and you don't bury those rep ranges, one of it gets boring is fuck.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And two, like yesterday when I was doing the dips, it was just body weight dips.

[SPEAKER_02]: I ended up banging out on my first set.

[SPEAKER_02]: I banged out thirty dips.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like I fucking did thirty body weight because we've been doing like up to like sixteen eighty pounds and chain for eights and I was like I said I did like ten reverse shrugs and then I fucking banged out thirty and I was like I've never been able to do thirty dips like like either I got really light in the ass or I'm getting really strong but like all these little markers are improvement [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's just simple math, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: But you have to run the math long enough for it to take effect.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that lack of monotony, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: People, it's like, oh, is it muscle confusion?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, it's just boring doing the same thing over and over.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we switched it up.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's when we've talked about, you know, hammer ninety-porting this training into hammer ninety.

[SPEAKER_03]: you know you guys have equipment there that I don't have but it's easy for me just from what I know and what I've studied and stuff to say like okay I don't have you know like I don't have a belt squat and it's like well so what are trying to do we're trying to load the legs up without axial loading it's like I can figure that out or I don't have a leg press it's like well we're trying to bang something on the quads like I can do a cyclist squat but we change those movements up not for like muscle confusion or anything but it's just like [SPEAKER_03]: You can only do so many leg extensions before you never want to do leg extensions.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember Tom Newman said that if you very a movement by three degrees, it's a different muscle.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a different training than the stimulus.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like, chaining different anything, whether it be your hands or feet, whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about compensatory acceleration versus VBT, because that's going to be actually, I read all the stuff on the discord.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys are following a poverty program and you're not in the discord, you are missing out.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to do it, jump in the feeds, get to the newsletter, whatever it is, and we'll get you in the discord, but it's pretty active.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there was a really killer discussion where people were asking about what should they be measuring their compensatory acceleration, because I'd list Kat as one of the training, [SPEAKER_02]: which is our speed work, like what's the number they need to be hitting for the velocity-based training?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't realize I was reading through that whole thread.

[SPEAKER_02]: I realized that like people are just kind of like interchanging cat with the BT and it's two different outcomes.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's two different stimulus.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is two different focuses.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it was a great discussion I thought, MCK said a lot of stuff from the speed side, Sullivan jumped in there talking about the stuff he's doing with his athletes and stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I thought that was the nerd in me, the strength nerd in me was very happy to see that conversation.

[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's interesting because they're really similar.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's easy to kind of swap them out, but there are two distinct different things.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, let's dive into that.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so for those of you guys who are not in the know, and I'm sure Mr.

Sufihani knows exactly what I'm talking about because a rush is a super fucking switch on him and big and former strength coach.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he knows all about this as much as anybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm actually my first strength and conditioning experiences were at Stanford.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we had to learn how to use VBT day, day three.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, if that was like, okay, well, let's run it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh, yeah, point, make sure everybody's moving faster than point three in meters per second.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, great.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so what I wrote about is a capacitor acceleration also known as cat is about intent.

[SPEAKER_02]: You move the bar as fast as possible during the lip with excellent technique and control even with lighter lights to generate greater higher force output.

[SPEAKER_02]: The goal is to maximize acceleration to mimic the force needed to move heavier weights.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like there's no tech that's required, it's just effort intent and focus.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what you're looking to do is control the eccentric smooth accentuation phase and then you're working on driving out into the concentric.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the goal is as mechanical advantage increases so as speed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what we see a lot of people do is they're very like comets the excensuation phase and then they slowly kind of come up and then at the very end they like want to shoot themselves up and like get up into a calf race.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the idea, you know, obviously this comes from Dr.

Fred Hatfield when we talked to Fred extensively and then when I did a podcast with him for it passed away, one of the key things was he's like, you know, people don't realize one if you want to be extremely dynamic in the concentric, you got to speed up the eccentric, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So the eccentric has to be a little faster.

[SPEAKER_02]: the eccentric faster, the accentuation phase is going to be faster in the concentric faster.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, it's very few people that can go slow, slow, slow, eccentric, slow accentuation phase, and then be able to move it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea, though, is I'm going to intend to drive as much force into the bar as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm literally trying to drive out of it and stand up, whereas the core idea is force is equal mass times acceleration, accelerating the weight through the entire concentric phase.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're building power and intent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't always have to be heavy, but you have to train it like the lighter weights so that when it gets heavy, it's automatic.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas VVT, on the other hand, adds data to discipline to your discipline, using devices like the push bands and the wear to track your actual velocity of a lift, which is giving feedback to help you dial in the exact load monitor fatigue.

[SPEAKER_02]: ensure that the training is in your correct velocity zone, and I'll tip that to Brian Man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but you know, in a rush, I'd be interested to hear because you're at Stanford, what was that ten years ago or so?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, dude.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, that was like that was actually twenty nineteen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start at twenty nineteen for six months.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little June six years.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, even back then at the because my just observing some some of the weight rooms have been at the universities have been at.

[SPEAKER_03]: it seemed to me so like philosophy is training in theory is a great thing but what I would see a lot of was athletes chasing a number so then manipulating their movement to attain that number and then it's like well what you know what are we doing here and the training is supposed to help facilitate performance the training isn't supposed to [SPEAKER_03]: It's not supposed to be targeted for metric.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so when we introduce VBT, I do it in the garage.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have a rep one unit, so I can measure my stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's almost like my sleep scores on my watch.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like first, I want to wake up and how did I feel?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like how am I feeling right now?

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'll use those scores to see if I align with what those are saying.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think [SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of how I treat VBTQ.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oh, you're trying to move fast.

[SPEAKER_03]: So move fast.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do the movement fast.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then let's see if your idea of fast matches this number that we're trying to get.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if anything, it's a, it's a moderator to make sure that athletes weren't loading too heavy so they were moving too slow.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they started to get into more of like a gamified mode where they were trying to, you know, either short up their squats so that they can move faster on the way up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to coach them up on depth.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I do think it was great in terms of like the initial phase, but we kind of want to get them out of that so they can intuitively understand what moving quickly is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And shout out to Sean Waxman, my first strength coach, he would, he is like the best determinant of the speed as the coach's eyes on the bar.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he was your old school, but he would be watching bar speed all the time, just looking at you from the side.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he could tell if you're moving slower fast that day, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then he would ask you like, hey, how'd that feel?

[SPEAKER_01]: Be like, man, I moved slow.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, then moved actually pretty quick today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was constantly educating.

[SPEAKER_01]: educating the athlete on what their actual speed was.

[SPEAKER_01]: Similar to like when you're coaching them an athlete on any particular technique and any sport is telling them what position to be in or how fast to throw their arm to achieve a throw or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the coaching is where it's going to where coaching either [SPEAKER_01]: From the outside or recording yourself and watching yourself lift is going to be the most beneficial to understanding what your true bar speed is.

[SPEAKER_01]: For saying, hey, you're going to move this heavy weight as fast as you can, it shouldn't look like you're grinding out your one rep max on every single rep there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think with another thing that people kind of, you know, people don't know what they don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Brian Mann did a great job with his APRE stuff and given us those zones.

[SPEAKER_03]: But there's what people see zones on things, whether it's VBT or heart rate training or whatever, you know, and VBT, it's like point seven, five is the goal to always velocity.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: But there's, you can't tell me that point seven four is different than point seven five, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So you can tell me that point five is different than point seven five, but the degree of difference, if you're in the zone below, you know, it's, it's just not biologically how things work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we, I mean, we see this with heart rate zones for let's say zone two, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was two, two, twenty minus your age times seventy to seventy five percent, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Was that, but then when we did max heart rate testing, [SPEAKER_02]: We realized, or at least I realized very, very quickly, that the heart rate zone was way off.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so then ended up looking at the map method and being like, all right, so one eighty minus my age, that's my target.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then going to the Morpheus and actually doing the max heart rate test, where if you guys want to do a max heart rate test, write for about ten minutes at about a comfortable pace, and then get off, take a little bit of breather for a few seconds, maybe thirty, forty seconds.

[SPEAKER_02]: then go on and do these two minute blasts as fucking fast as you can rest two minutes and by about the third bout two minutes hammer rest two minutes hammer again I mean by about the third one you're starting to get where you want and then when you hit that fourth one you just go for broke and you know fuck I was over [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was way over, I mean, for somebody I should be in their twenties.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I realized, oh, shit, my zones were just way too low.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think with the VBT, the same thing, also to tell a bit of a story.

[SPEAKER_02]: When Zeng is first talked to me about compensatory acceleration in nineteen ninety two.

[SPEAKER_02]: He talked about Fred Hatfield and his thing was like, I want you to try to break these fucking weights.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, and where you break the weights isn't on the eccentric.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got to bring the bar down, like you're trying to bring it to you, and you're trying to shadow these motherfuckers.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, when you bench, I want you to pick a spot four inches in front of where the bar is, and I want you to try to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we did it with the squat, we did it with the deadlift, everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything was like, I'm gonna rip this fucking bar off the ground.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I went out to go play football, then everybody was like, hey man, you're fucking punch is crazy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I can't believe how hard you punch.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, well, a lot of people were just trying to place their hands.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was trying to put my hands four inches through people because that's what we had been training.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that compensatory acceleration, whether it came from hitting or what?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that moment, when I was, you know, fifteen years old at Zeng, this is when he's talking about, you know, pester acceleration, I want you to do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that moment ended up ingraining something in me that ended up allowing me to play for a decade, the NFL.

[SPEAKER_01]: Your karate was very strong.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I'm forever grateful for my mentors.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that one was important.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think the thing that gets lost, because we did all the VBT stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing that was fascinating, we got the tendo.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had all the training groups.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had girls.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were like, you know, and this is where I kind of created a lot of when you see the power athlete templates, where we do a retmax, and we go back, and we do cat with a percentage.

[SPEAKER_02]: because I realized that we tested people and then over the course, like the only time that I could get a static variable was either in that training session or maybe a dare to before.

[SPEAKER_02]: It had to be weak to weak ahead to adjust, so that's where a lot of that came from, but also the issue came down to is some people [SPEAKER_02]: The speed and the VVT wasn't a great indicator of maximal strength.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had certain people that were that could move a higher percentage of their one-rm at a greater speed, but couldn't lift as heavy a one-rm.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we had other people that were just strong and shit that could lift heavy that just weren't that fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, you know, then we have to say, like, what are we training for?

[SPEAKER_02]: Are we training athletes for sprinting in this?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think BBT works there in terms of volume load and being able to kind of like self-regulate.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I also think using rep max is a pretty good way too.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, in terms of writing programs for thousands of people that you've never met, a daily matrix and being able to kind of do that more so than being like, it needs to be, you know, point seven for a pose from talking about intent.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I think if you learn compensatory acceleration and how to do it, [SPEAKER_02]: It's easy to do VVT.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you learn velocity-based training without understanding cat, I don't think it's as meaningful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think, you know, because we do sit not, you know, power athlete.

[SPEAKER_03]: We think about speed and power and things like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if you go into the power lifting literature, they start doing VVT, but they're looking at like point one five.

[SPEAKER_03]: point two and you know and I because yeah because that's maximum strength and the problem again Brian did a great job bringing the velocity zones to the forefront but if you look at those zones the lowest zone is anything below point five and it's like just do the simple math if you're moving at point two meters per second your squat rep is taking about five seconds if you're moving at point five meters per second your squat rep is taking about second half two seconds yeah [SPEAKER_03]: And so just being in the weight room, it's like you can you know, like man, if the weight is so heavy that it's taking me five seconds to do a rep, that's some heavy S weight, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so when people get too hung up on those higher speed zones, they forget what it feels like to sit under heavy heavy weight, but with cat [SPEAKER_03]: If the whole idea is like, man, I'm just trying to move as fast as possible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like with it doesn't matter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, with intent, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the the then it doesn't matter as much because that that five second squats still going to take five seconds, but you're able to [SPEAKER_03]: why you're yourself to say I'm driving as fast as possible recruit those high threshold motor units as fast as possible and try to move relatively fast now if it's a maximum weight that's going to be slow right but it's still relatively a fast contraction and so I think you know I think that kind of gets lost in there as well but [SPEAKER_03]: But all that being said, it's also kind of cool that we're at a point where the common person, you know, one of the just a general power athlete follower is starting to think about this stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I kind of take a step back and it's like, man, this is all five years ago, ten years ago, the average Joe would never have thought about this stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really cool that the average person is there.

[SPEAKER_03]: But we don't want to get caught up majoring in the minors, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And you do a good job with your coaches' notes of like, this is what we're trying to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to move fast.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the other day with the bench press for the eat the weakness, you're like, we want to that are fast, to that are pretty quick, and then maybe two sets that are a little bit overreaching.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay, so I have the velocity meter.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can measure my velocity, but that helps me calibrate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, okay, maybe point four point five.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what I found is that if you use cat working up, like if we hit those two sets, it's usually like one, like you hit the first one, it feels like, all right, you hit the second one, you're dialed.

[SPEAKER_02]: You had weight, then the fourth one, you're like, bam, bam.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then you add that fifth and you're like, it's heavy and then in your mind you're like, all right, I know this, I know how this dance goes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm gonna move this thing and you should be able to hear that change ring.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, I think, [SPEAKER_02]: people and and did you brought it up great with with good hearts law, which reminds us that when you measure when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

[SPEAKER_02]: In other words, if athletes start chasing velocity numbers, sorry, if athletes start chasing velocity numbers just to hit the metric, rather than focus on focusing on the intent, intentional movement and adaptation, they risk losing sight of the actual training goal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and this is why it's so, you know, it's so important for I think people to have some kind of arena of sport, whatever that is.

[SPEAKER_03]: If it's a train jits a couple times a week, I go play pickleball in the city wreck league or I go for runs or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: because if you don't have some third party event that you're training for, then the training becomes your event, which is fine.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like we all just talked about how we PR.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like we all want to get better at our training.

[SPEAKER_03]: But when training becomes the thing that you're targeting, it's real easy to slip into every day I need to PR.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's like, that's not good training.

[SPEAKER_03]: Good periodization is not going to allow for that to happen, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you mentally are there, now you're going to start getting discouraged with your training.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if training is all you have, you don't have that sport or that activity, [SPEAKER_03]: That's not a good place to be, and so we don't want to make training the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: It can be a thing, but it shouldn't be the thing, because the whole goal is, even if it's absent of a sport, it's just your life, playing with your kids, like some other thing where it's like, I can kind of subjectively, maybe objectively do better at this other thing, and my training is the vehicle that gets me there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Dr.

Ben, what do you think about accommodating resistance as a way to teach people about cat?

[SPEAKER_01]: like chains bands.

[SPEAKER_03]: If so for the novice, I think it's overkill.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think they can get comfortable with the intent with just the barbell or the weights.

[SPEAKER_03]: In that case with the novices, that's why I like including [SPEAKER_03]: low-resistant throws, medicine ball throws, things like that, so they can really feel top-end velocity.

[SPEAKER_03]: If I do it with eight pound medicine ball, I'll do a chest pass as hard as I can, and now I go in bench press, that helps calibrate those ranges.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if they've been training for a while, I would tend to say, I prefer chains rather than bands, and it's kind of counterintuitive because bands are a little bit more controlled, but I think [SPEAKER_03]: the nature of the chain, how it gets heavier off the ground.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know bands increase tension, but just when I've used them myself, it feels, they just feel different.

[SPEAKER_03]: The band tension is always there, but the chains, if we're relating it to some real world sport or something like that, I feel like the chains have a little bit more of a real world feedback mechanism on them.

[SPEAKER_02]: We used to call it chaos training.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that the chains cost chaos because they would de-load an unload that can different ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: Two thoughts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Years ago when I went out to West Side, there was a dude that trained their name ball.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when we were training with ball, who was a look like a fucking ball, shaved head, go-teed, fucking railed up, big time, fucking jaxery.

[SPEAKER_02]: He talked about chains, make you brutally strong.

[SPEAKER_02]: The bands make you extremely fast and explosive.

[SPEAKER_02]: The problem is the central nervous system takes a massive toll with the chance with the bands, whereas they don't, it doesn't happen the same with the chains.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the problem is, is that eventually said in power, lifting they started with it, and everybody got brutally strong that it went to the bands, and it cooked everybody's nervous system.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he said, there's gotta be a balance of both.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I talked to Dr.

Fred Hadfield, you know, who created compensatory acceleration for theorized it, I asked him about accompanying resistance.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the first time I talked to him, he's shit on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like the West side guys are fucked in.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what they're talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason being is when he squatted his thousand plus his thousand forty two and forty two years old, he was using something called a torque commuter.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he was not measuring speed.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was measuring how much force and I don't know what a torque meter is and I don't know what he came up with or how he created it and he wasn't very like descriptive on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But he had, he went to some science lab and they basically created some apparatus where he could measure the amount of torque and power or drive or force he was putting into the bar.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when he went in and he was doing his training, he never squatted the thousand pounds in training.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was at like eight, fifteen, nine hundred.

[SPEAKER_02]: but he was doing it for like triples and based upon the torque that he was putting into the bar he was good for twelve hundred so when he went into that contest he had to walk out he said if I didn't have to walk that shit out I could have squatted probably eleven hundred eleven fifty [SPEAKER_02]: But he had to like walk it out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you remember seeing it like there was pins, he had to like, you know, water lit back.

[SPEAKER_02]: But he hit that, I mean, it's fast out of the bottom.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we talked about that torque meter.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I talked to him about the velocity based stuff, he's like, well, you know, that's just bar speed.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not how much intent and force.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a difference.

[SPEAKER_02]: So then the next time I talked to him, when we went down and did the, you know, the on the long road with him before he passed away, [SPEAKER_02]: I asked him about a comedy in a instance again and he said that they had just done a study where they had taken not begin or kind of intermediate athletes like taught them cat and then used a comedy in a resistance and he felt that there was a massive training stimulus where now all of a sudden it made force because the bar started slowing down on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: right so like you know the bands in the chains and I don't remember what he said they used for a company resistance or say a company resistance but he said as like the first rep they did is they were going down as they started coming up in the band started to stretch in the chain started unloading they started slowing down and it was like the light bulb went on it was like oh [SPEAKER_02]: After, you know, if I'm slowing down, I have to like drive force into the bar to speed it up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so he said that there was like a very interesting window, and it wasn't novice window, but it was like an intermediate kind of window where the accompanying resistance could be extremely valuable in the training to teaching them cat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then once they master it, then they could probably, and then that was just like that phase, and they could go into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if they ever got lazy or if they ever kind of forgot, they could always go back.

[SPEAKER_02]: to using some accommodating resistance to kind of reset the nervous system, get them firing, get their memory back, but then putting them in.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he wasn't a hundred percent sold on using it all the time, but he looked at it as like training blocks and like a novel stimulus to drop into the training.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like there is value to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I have to take a step back on that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: From what you just said, it seemed like the torque meter was some kind of measurement, but it sounds a lot like VBT, but I think specifically to our point that we're deliberating on, it wasn't necessarily important to measure unless his event was the squat.

[SPEAKER_01]: His end goal, because his sport was the lift.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now, because I know you guys have some force plates down there, you know, for keeping it relative to VBT, an isometric is zero velocity, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so you can do some pretty jiggy stuff in terms of kind of, I think probably what Fred was doing with the torque meter in finding kind of your ceiling by setting up an isometric on the force plates or if you're at home in a garage and you don't have the [SPEAKER_03]: means to get forced plates.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can go on Amazon and get a crane scale that can go up to six hundred kilos, which is more than probably anybody will lift.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you can set it up by a little chain, make a little wood platform.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty simple to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then you can measure now the key here is their angle specific.

[SPEAKER_03]: So whatever angle you're setting yourself up at, it's specific to that angle.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then you can kind of measure what a zero velocity would be.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you can set yourself up.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the classic one is like an isometric mid thigh pole where you set the the bar up kind of mid thigh and that will show you the amount of force you can create kind of at the top of the deadlift or as you're coming out of the deadlift.

[SPEAKER_03]: But you can set it up for squat as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: Go all the way down to the bottom of the hole.

[SPEAKER_03]: do an isometric trying to push against it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that kind of stuff I think can help if people are trying to get a gauge on cat as well because with isometrics, the beauty is it's almost injury proof because you're not being dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then you can really lay into it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we would do some IMTP testing with some of the athletes and the numbers for little guys and gals actually.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like the numbers they're putting them sick.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's so much force.

[SPEAKER_03]: So then it gives you an idea of like, okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: neurologically I have this in my body, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so helps you kind of gauge like how much weight you can put on when doing cat work or things like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, if people want to mess with that, I think the crane scales are like sixty bucks or something.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's not super expensive.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that's another kind of just a piece of information to help guide you.

[SPEAKER_03]: But also, when we talk about cat or VBT, I think the biggest barrier for folks is admitting when it is too heavy, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Where, yeah, so like myself, for example, during the bench the other day, my overreach, I did a couple overreach sets and I was like, that's trying to throw a little bit more on there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it got too heavy that I couldn't [SPEAKER_03]: be cat-like, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It just, I was fatigued or whatever it was.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think people need to build that kind of honest self-assessment knowing that the intent of this work is not necessarily to go as heavy as you can go.

[SPEAKER_03]: The intent is to deliver that speed or that fast contraction into the bar.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because sometimes like sometimes that cat work is [SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty light.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's okay, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just it's the intent for the day.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to get weaker.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're moving as fast as possible.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you're still recruiting those those higher motor unit.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, high threshold.

[SPEAKER_01]: What about that pump?

[SPEAKER_01]: What about my pump?

[SPEAKER_01]: What if I don't feel a pump?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, one of the guys in the discord said, unless I feel like I have a massive pump, I feel like I didn't get anything done in the gym.

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of the reason that I sent that newsletter out of the pump is I read that and I was like, oh shit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the pump doesn't do anything for a hypertrophy.

[SPEAKER_02]: What it is is it's inflammation, but just because it doesn't drive hypertrophy doesn't mean it's not valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: It processes waste.

[SPEAKER_02]: It actually makes the muscles more nutrient-adents.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's all of these different things that the pump does that make it important.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if it's strength, it's the pump's not driving strength.

[SPEAKER_02]: pumps not driving hypertrophy, but it's creating a more advantageous environment for all of those things to take in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like for example, if you just go in the gym and you go in and do sets of like fifty with the bands as fast as you can and just get a massive pump, like that's not really doing, like you're not getting, you're not putting on muscle.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now if you were to lift some heavy fucking weights and do some heavy fives and hit that, [SPEAKER_02]: and then go finish up some accessories with some mates and then go, you know, then at the very end hit some, you know, some thirties and get a nice pump.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now you've basically like hit the spectrum and the training and you're gonna drive and do what you need to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the problem is is that if the only receipt you have for whether or not you're getting jacked or training hard is a pump, I think that is a little misguided and the reason I sent out that newsletter.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, just to give you guys listen on the radio, I [SPEAKER_02]: read this discord and I get all these questions and look at all this information from thousands of people and when I start seeing these common themes so we were using the discord but then all of a sudden like summer hit in the discord kind of like activity kind of dropped a little bit [SPEAKER_02]: So I came up with this idea to just send out a newsletter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, we got forty thousand people in a contact list.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm just going to fucking send it to your e-box instead of you getting on the discord.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to send it to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I started going through and looking at things like the pump and e-centrics versus concentrics, VBT and this and need and all these different things that we're constantly looking at and analyzing and just being able to push it out and be able to provide this information to people so that now they're more educated and instead of that guy going to be like, oh, shit, I thought that I had to get a pump every time.

[SPEAKER_02]: After I read John's, you know, from the mind of John Wellborn, I realized that like, yeah, I need a pump, but I need to do the other stuff too.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's a good kind of a good philosophy, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Our bodies can do a lot of things.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can get a pump.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can tax or CNS.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can do all those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you probably should throughout the week of your training do all of that stuff at least once, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And, but what we find ourselves, especially in the age where Instagram is and targeted influencers and things like that, we get so myopic on a single thing, right, on hypertrophy.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's what, and if it doesn't help, hypertrophy, it's not worth it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's Paul's deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Paul's obsessed with hypertrophy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And his programs are all about just about hypertrophy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, OK, we know hypertrophy falls with this number.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what it all is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, what about movement?

[SPEAKER_02]: What about athleticism?

[SPEAKER_02]: What about training different rep ranges?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what was cool when I found [SPEAKER_02]: you know, that infographics, and I'll send it to you for crispier, to where he showed about like the cascade and like the different rep ranges and how it's create, you know, does it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I much rather like that in my training, we're now able to hit some like heavier, you know, compound movements for some lower reps and able to hit some assessor, you know, some kind of these medium, and then I'm able to do a little bit more assessor and some other things like some smaller moves.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because [SPEAKER_02]: Smaller muscles recover faster than big muscles, which is kind of counterintuitive.

[SPEAKER_02]: If everybody thinks like, oh, like your triceps and biceps and your calves, I mean smaller muscles can be traded in a trained with greater frequency just because they don't require as much bigger muscles like your [SPEAKER_02]: You know, quads and hamstrings and back and, you know, chest and something like those take longer to recover.

[SPEAKER_02]: So being able to kind of look at this and be like, all right, like, how are you balancing this training?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, why is this?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's like training your calves with heavy threes doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your calves are so, have so much low twitch fiber that like it's like isometric whole top and bottom, twenty five, thirty reps.

[SPEAKER_02]: being able to train them every day to be able to get them to move, whereas the ton of fast which fibers in your hamstrings, things like pulling some heavy RDLs, doing some throws, being able to put some focus stuff into the hamstring, the GHD, somewhat dynamic.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes the hamstrings grow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so Dr.

B, what about as the research throw now, the differences between myophibular and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a kind of...

Is that a stab?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like what John's just talking about, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's the myophibular.

[SPEAKER_03]: If we talk about the muscle, the single unit of the muscle is the myophibular.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, mild fibrillir hypertrophy will grow those contractile units.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, that's kind of the overarching goal, typically with hypertrophy, because as those units grow, they become stronger, you become stronger.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that takes a little bit longer, but longer lasting effect.

[SPEAKER_03]: But sarcoplasmic, that's, you know, that's the pump, pretty transient.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we know this, I mean, John essentially just a little bit, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a day called transient hypertrophy for a reason.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's our everyday where we just get some bodybuilding.

[SPEAKER_02]: You get a pump and it helps them recovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and earlier when you're talking about getting a pump, you laid out my exact strategy when I sent you guys progress photos on this as I go and I get like a hundred reps on some bands and then take my photos because you get the pump.

[SPEAKER_03]: But plenty of us have been there were then an hour later we're deflated and so it's just transient because it's just a fluid shift and that fluid shift happens for a few different reasons.

[SPEAKER_03]: But again, like John said, so it doesn't have lasting effects, but what that fluid is, that's blood and nutrients and oxygen, and all of that going to the muscle in a time when the muscle needs repair.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if you can front end all of that pump work with some true strength training, you're going to flush all the good stuff into your muscles when they need it the most.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, it's not lasting, so we're going to go back to your questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a lasting, sarcoplasmic is an elastic effect, but it's [SPEAKER_03]: It's still of value.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's how we get growth factors and things like that to the muscle in kind of a faster way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, over the course of twenty four hours, you're still pumping nutrients to your muscles and stuff, but just that pump gives it a little bit more of a targeted approach.

[SPEAKER_01]: So do you think my underwear progress photos are valid?

[SPEAKER_01]: Postpom?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh for tons of many more reasons than just this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't send any pictures with the pump.

[SPEAKER_02]: I send them first thing depleted.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason being is I'm sandbagging it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what we'll end up doing is depleting the carbon it up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And but I'll tell you when I stepped on the scale and I saw that two sixty I was like I'll think [SPEAKER_01]: John's been sugar fasting.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, we didn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were, we were close.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were John off the cliff.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were real fucking close.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got off that podcast with Jay Campbell.

[SPEAKER_02]: He sent me all of this shit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is how I want you to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And everybody was like, hey, did he send it to you?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, now I didn't send it to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, he, he fucking, he basically sent me all the parameters.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had to kind of put it together.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I got on with Ben and I was like, hey, man, should we do this?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's just last two weeks to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Ben was like, no, let's not do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the reason being is Ben is a recovering raw food.

[SPEAKER_02]: Raw vegan.

[SPEAKER_02]: Raw vegan frutarian?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're in pain.

[SPEAKER_03]: You are a man in the game, Dr.

B.

In fairness, John, what did I say?

[SPEAKER_03]: I said, let's finish this out at the power athlete way.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then we can mess around with that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that was mostly because dude, I woke up today, to twenty one.

[SPEAKER_03]: They've been to twenty one for years.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, I don't want [SPEAKER_03]: I'm afraid that getting six hundred grams of carbs is going to bring on a whole bunch of water and that two twenty-one's going to go away.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so afraid of, uh, like, go with that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm not, it's not off the table completely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, no, I, I mean, we have the game plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we should, like, we should do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing we need to be nervous about is, um, I, so I usually wear like thirty eight to forty shorts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I have to belt my thirty eights now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like into thirty-sixes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the fact that I'm, you know, six, just under six, six, two, sixty, and change.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think I woke up to play it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure I ate them up a little bit more.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that I'm like a thirty-six inch waste, that's fucking, I haven't been a thirty-six inch waste since like forever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I haven't been under two, sixty.

[SPEAKER_02]: since my probably my senior year of high school.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I showed up at like, two, fifty, two, sixty as a freshman in college.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I like to be this low is pretty shocking.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's nice.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, like I had to go run an errand for DJ and like went pick something up and the dude was like, are you a body like [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what the fuck?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, what do you mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we were, you know, how to get some seals for this ram.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, no, we do some training.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they do.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, just kind of given me this weird look.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you know, and then I realized that like, there's just not a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think I saw the other day that it's more common to be a millionaire than have a six pack.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're a millionaire with a six pack, there's like four people in Austin with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I was like, yeah, fuck man.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, so like, you know, and it's not as if [SPEAKER_02]: Like we were out of shape, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's I think what's interesting is like, you know, people are kind of like in this kind of gray zone.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you really have to basically make a concerted effort.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think something like handbrain to you, the weakness of the challenge.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the shared suffering and I feel like all the people that did the eat the week challenge ended up being okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was the people that didn't do the weights and didn't kind of get into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as Evan Eschisne was fucked up and I feel bad for him on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so he wasn't able to do enough training.

[SPEAKER_02]: Marty comes on his own and, you know, John Walsh got hurt and, but for everybody for you and me and Matt and everybody that consistently did the program and kind of like kept the banter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like we hit the mark where we needed to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you guys, you and Arash did a part a couple weeks ago, and I think Arash touched on it, but that is truly the biggest, I mean, the training's been great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Diet is obviously.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you guys like the training dude.

[SPEAKER_02]: I take a lot of pride as you know, Arash, I take a lot of pride in like writing good training and always as a chef, always being able to sample my own cooking and do it and I do it, you know, right along.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if I'm excited to do the training, [SPEAKER_02]: And I get in there and I get this stimulus like the one thing though.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize that for like rectus for Morris, which is the obviously the biggest muscle in the quad, it has to be a single joint, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you move to joints, it doesn't hit rectus for Morris, which I think is interesting because then I'm always wondering why these classic girls that don't do like extensions have massive quads.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's got to be from like this monster air squats.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I think the interesting thing is, you know, we have a leg extension kind of hamstring curl machine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we use it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I've never really consistently used it as much as we did within this program, just personally, I get an idea to do some warm up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And every time I come in, I just kind of hit it, I got to the point where like now I'm able to do twice the weight that I want.

[SPEAKER_02]: I did like, fifteen or twenty reps, whereas like, [SPEAKER_02]: The quad's got stronger, everything got stronger, and the pain went away.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if it's a combination of just being more focused in it, the training, systemic inflammation, the dieting, the body fat, or it could be just fucking everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: I curse your name and Ben's name every time I do a Bulgarian drop set or a leg press drop so I'm like to these guys not have any other hard things in their life to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you guys hate yourself so much and then and then I like John why did we have to do a leg press drop [SPEAKER_02]: then wanted to mix it up, then it was like, which is a lie because I don't tell Ben, I just basically sent in the training and then it's funny because I usually, I work on it on like, so I get up Saturday morning, I do my programming, make sure everything's dialed.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I do it over the week, but like Saturday morning, I kind of get everything done because if there's one mistake, [SPEAKER_02]: Like if there's one somebody is going to email me like for example on field strong I switched it to sprint sixty meters and for some reason it kept like half-gasser and they were like it's just half-gasser in sixty and I'm like no problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll fix it and the one guy's like I read it last night.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was a little nervous and then I saw today and I felt much better and I'm like [SPEAKER_02]: I get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But so Ben, I'll text me at like seven eight clock and eight and he's like, hey, dude, the weakness is an up on my, oh shit, I forgot to publish it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me go do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, then the other day he was like, well, what is it?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to wait for you to go publish it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just sent it to him.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was pretty funny, but it was, you know, and it's, it's just been basically like every compound.

[SPEAKER_02]: medium, you know, six-day reps on the accessory, hitting a bunch of little different ones, some form of like lever where it'd be like a drop set.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's also another interesting thing too that I stumbled on with one of the articles that talked about hypertrophy as it relates to bilateral versus unilateral movements.

[SPEAKER_02]: that they felt that in the study that they did, that there was greater hypertrophy effect, like in terms of like a hierarchy, that if you train like a big compound movement, like let's say a squat, and then you go and you do the accessory with a single joint movement.

[SPEAKER_02]: that there was a greater hypertrophy effect than following it up with another bilateral, which we do a lot of the programs.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like a heavy mover, something, and then a lot of the assessor redo is unilateral, just because I felt that the effects, the training effects and hypertrophy and strength and everything, just in terms of control and balance and all the other stuff, were just dramatically better if I went from bilateral to unilateral.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I end up stumbling across that, and I'm like fucking another feather in the calf for power athlete.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and actually, my favorite part, so to finish my thought earlier, Aroch mentioned it a couple weeks ago, the biggest driver of this has been the community.

[SPEAKER_03]: Has been either the outward shit talking and stuff, or just in my mind knowing that, yeah, John, Aroch, Matt, like these guys are doing it too.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like if I'm, I gotta do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like otherwise, I can't, I can't let them down, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's been huge.

[SPEAKER_03]: But in terms of the training, those Saturdays have actually been super awesome also because now that we're getting so much stronger, like I'm for those who don't know, the Saturdays are like some kind of conditioning piece, but we're pushing heavy sleds, doing some kind of a gambler, but we're also doing kettlebell swings.

[SPEAKER_03]: had that hundred and five pound kettlebell in my garage for a while now I'd use it for kind of low volume stuff but you know now Saturdays we have those hundred and fifty kettlebell swings like the strength that I've gained from the training now my conditioning is more intense because I'm swinging the hundred and five for the hundred and fifty reps instead of the seventy two and [SPEAKER_03]: and the sled weight, you know, I'm pushing three hundred fifty pounds plus sled weight instead of what started at like two seventy five.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like that kind of stuff when we think about again, everybody's like a hypertrophy or strength.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, it all bleeds together.

[SPEAKER_03]: My conditioning is taken off because now I'm stronger.

[SPEAKER_03]: And because I can condition better, my recovery is better so I can get stronger.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, it's, it doesn't fit in these silos.

[SPEAKER_02]: The thing I noticed with the kettlebell swings when we do the high rep stuff and this is just maybe the adaptation I feel like in like where like my glute comes down to my hamstring like the cut like for some reason this like this like area and the glute from like the low back down into there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like then I think it's from, you know, the way that I swing is kind of an RDL swing and then like the violence stand up so you're constantly like going from this to this.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in terms of like back health and rotation and everything, like feel really good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I know we probably sound a little insane because we're all probably a little bit hungry and we're at the end of this thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in terms of just like physicality, outside of having to deal with fostering puppies, which has been a massive stress for me, I feel really good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Grandpa.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we got one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we did I tell you Nick you brought showed me how to do a body like pass.

[SPEAKER_02]: I actually asked him and he had some really good tips.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I was telling the guys and they were like basically got mad at me like we've shown you that exact same thing and I'm like know you haven't not going to look into his beautiful green eyes.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I was amazed by and this is just kind of funny for those of you guys who are into jets and know the B team.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought [SPEAKER_02]: He would be a much bigger dude.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just got a pretty big upper body.

[SPEAKER_02]: Looks pretty jacked.

[SPEAKER_02]: He is maybe like a thirty two, thirty four inch waist.

[SPEAKER_02]: He is very small in the waist.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not very thick in the legs and uh, just uh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like amazed at how little he was.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cat like choking machine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when he got my back, he couldn't get me, but that's probably because I just got a big back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Ben, when are you going to throw the guion when you're going to put on the rashguard in shorts?

[SPEAKER_01]: They're excited to see your new body in the rashguard in shorts.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I can send you, I can send you pictures of my new body whenever you want.

[SPEAKER_03]: But actually, no.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, truthfully, my girls did the big target with swim lessons this summer, so they could learn how to swim.

[SPEAKER_03]: And our six-year-old has a pretty good handle on it now.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the next thing we're going to do, the local martial arts studio, they do use Taikwondo, youth, and the scheduling of it is right after the youth class is the adult beginner.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so my schedule works with that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Once I'm waiting to finish this training cycle up, so we have one more week, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'm going to go head over there and start getting my ass kicked.

[SPEAKER_02]: So kind of funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: I ran, I was somewhere recently and seeing a doctor, I'm not going to say who it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: But older doctor, older wife, she's like, oh, you know, my wife's a black belt in Taekwondo.

[SPEAKER_02]: She got it in three years.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wow, in your sixties, you started doing Taekwondo and you've got a black belt in three years.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I assume if somebody's a fucking black belt, I'm like, all right, if you're a black belt, I mean, you know, that means you got to like, in, in jujitsu unless you're Derek Moneyberg, which I'm sure is amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like getting a black belt in three years, like doesn't exist.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like, but the other thing with jujitsu is if somebody like a shanji or, you know, Steve or, [SPEAKER_02]: you know, uh, solo or, you know, anybody that falls within our lineage in, uh, in Jiu Jitsu gives you a black belt, like they own you, or not not they own you, but they like they own that black belt, like it's like your part of their team.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's a certain standard that you have to hold.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just remember thinking like, well, even if you went every single day, like there's no way that you could master a martial art in three years.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it said, that's only like, what would that be?

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, [SPEAKER_02]: like, eleven hundred sessions, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, so twenty two hundred hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not even anywhere near mastery.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's why to get the digital black belt takes about ten years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why we call them professor.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, but yeah, I was, uh, I was thinking and like in my head, I was like, I wonder if I snatch this lady by the wrist.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, is she high kicks here?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what and knocks you out before you're able to grab her?

[SPEAKER_02]: Then I would have been like, okay, you know, you have a master come here and type window is strong.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, what if you snatched by the wrist and arm dragger and then just fucking literally just body locker and smash her?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, it's interesting, though.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's what we're doing both because I look at the two and like for six year olds, like I think Tyquando, the structure of it, you know, learning the whatever the called the moves or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's one valuable thing for her on her discipline side, but the jujitsu part is truly coming from like a self defense, like your girl you need to be able to like if someone gets close to you, yeah, you can [SPEAKER_02]: You hate to feel comfortable with somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what.

[SPEAKER_01]: The value of the striking martial arts from a young age, you're just not going to be able to throw your limbs faster.

[SPEAKER_01]: As you age, you have a biological limb, I think it's around age ten or eleven where if you don't train in those velocities, you're never really going to learn how to move your body that quickly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the value in the striking martial arts early on is going to be [SPEAKER_01]: Learning how to throw a kick, the learning how to throw a punch, and you can always access that later to get better at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I learned when I was super young, when I was six years old, and I can still throw a kick like I used to when I was a kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a value in both for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Jujitsu is just easier to train every day at high intensity, and I've talked at Nazium about Jujitsu on this podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and she loves rough housing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, hey, you can rough house.

[SPEAKER_01]: All you want.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: All you want to do, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I think it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the jitz teaches a lot of confidence it teaches a lot, but yeah, man, I just I think when I hear the term and maybe this is because the moneyburg thing is so funny and you send away we were sending so much stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you guys not in the know there's this guy named Derek moneyberg and he hired like Gordon Ryan and all these guys to come train him one on one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he said that he did three hours of private training sessions seven days a week for three and a half to get and then they gifted him a black belt.

[SPEAKER_02]: The problem is is that like he's got some rolls online and like it looks a little fishy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And but he's got some of the baddest dudes in the world that have co-signed on him.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean Gordon Ryan's trained with him and said this guy's legit.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it just, you know, and he's like, you know, you guys are haters, but like BJ Penn got a black belt in like three and a half, four years, but he also went down to Brazil and won IBJJF Worlds and they belted him on the deal and they went on and, you know, one of the greatest, you know, UFC fighters in history.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like his was actually proven on the mat and there was no [SPEAKER_02]: like no question, where is this guy's in like his own private studio?

[SPEAKER_02]: He's rolling with socks on, which is weird.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, everything's nogie.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, it just, I don't know, it's just strange.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you can't be a master unless you test yourself in the arena, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like you could at home be the best piano player ever, but with you get on stage and under the lights, you can't do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then you can't really, you can't call yourself a true master, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're not competing in the sport of jujitsu, [SPEAKER_03]: Or at least in strength condition, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Same thing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, like I'm sure for you as a professor, it helps to look the part.

[SPEAKER_02]: So all right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So just to wrap up, we hit the BT versus cats, that'll be coming in a mindage on well-born.

[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about protein recommendations, and we talked a little bit about hypertrophy strength, the pump, and really finishing it up with what we talked about all the time, which is Jits.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just wanted to thank Mr.

Arash Sufiani.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: and Mr.

or Dr.

Ben Sketnik.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're jumping on this special edition of Power Athletic Radio and actually a pretty awesome one because we haven't done a three-way in a long time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm always stoked to do them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So thanks guys for taking the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: See ya.

[SPEAKER_02]: Powerathlete HQ.com, backslash training, come see us if you want to jump on Jack's due to any of the training programs.

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