1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,379 The US did have this long-running anti-nuclear bent. 2 00:00:04,379 --> 00:00:06,089 I can't even tell you how much has changed 3 00:00:06,089 --> 00:00:06,965 in the last few years. 4 00:00:06,965 --> 00:00:08,800 They changed the mandate of the NRC 5 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,220 and they said you are no longer focused just on safety. 6 00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:14,764 Department of Energy pathways have been also unopened 7 00:00:14,764 --> 00:00:17,058 and unblocked for test reactors. 8 00:00:17,058 --> 00:00:18,101 The last 10 years or so, 9 00:00:18,101 --> 00:00:21,187 it's been like 1% of nuclear fuel used in the US 10 00:00:21,187 --> 00:00:22,814 was actually domestically mined. 11 00:00:22,814 --> 00:00:25,442 We're still buying like almost 50% of our uranium 12 00:00:25,442 --> 00:00:28,153 from Russia and kind of ex-Soviet states. 13 00:00:28,153 --> 00:00:30,238 How capital intensive is it going to be 14 00:00:30,238 --> 00:00:31,740 to get your product to market? 15 00:00:31,740 --> 00:00:33,616 Oh, in the hundreds of millions. 16 00:00:33,616 --> 00:00:35,535 The biggest organization that showed up 17 00:00:35,535 --> 00:00:38,705 against Diablo Canyon was called "Mothers for Peace." 18 00:00:38,705 --> 00:00:40,123 This organization was that old 19 00:00:40,123 --> 00:00:43,001 that it was related to the Nuclear Cold War, right? 20 00:00:43,001 --> 00:00:45,670 I'm part of this "Mothers for Nuclear" organization. 21 00:00:45,670 --> 00:00:47,297 Mothers against their mothers? 22 00:00:47,297 --> 00:00:48,715 Yeah. 23 00:00:48,715 --> 00:00:50,759 And then I brought some graphite. 24 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:51,593 Do you want to take that out 25 00:00:51,593 --> 00:00:52,427 and I'll show it? Sure, yeah. 26 00:00:52,427 --> 00:00:54,262 This is what we are using for our moderator 27 00:00:54,262 --> 00:00:55,805 in our reactor. 28 00:00:55,805 --> 00:00:58,641 It has been designated a critical mineral. 29 00:00:58,641 --> 00:00:59,768 It's an important one. 30 00:00:59,768 --> 00:01:00,602 But this is just graphite. 31 00:01:00,602 --> 00:01:02,353 Like this is not, you know, 32 00:01:02,353 --> 00:01:03,980 uranium-235 or something. 33 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:06,066 No, I wouldn't have brought you that. 34 00:01:06,066 --> 00:01:09,277 That would've been a little bit dangerous to be holding. 35 00:01:09,277 --> 00:01:11,446 Julia DeWahl is the co-founder of Antares, 36 00:01:11,446 --> 00:01:13,364 which is designing nuclear micro-reactors 37 00:01:13,364 --> 00:01:16,201 for the military and other off-grid use cases. 38 00:01:16,576 --> 00:01:17,702 Cheers. Cheers. 39 00:01:17,702 --> 00:01:19,662 Thanks for coming by. It's great to be here. 40 00:01:22,999 --> 00:01:27,962 So you started out first at Opendoor and then SpaceX. 41 00:01:28,004 --> 00:01:29,881 What did you learn in each one of those 42 00:01:29,881 --> 00:01:31,007 that you took to Antares? 43 00:01:31,007 --> 00:01:31,841 Yeah, sure. 44 00:01:31,841 --> 00:01:35,136 I think one of the big things is always about customers, 45 00:01:35,136 --> 00:01:35,970 right? 46 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:36,805 I mean, at the end of the day, 47 00:01:36,805 --> 00:01:38,473 this is why you build a business. 48 00:01:38,473 --> 00:01:40,100 At Opendoor, a lot of us were pretty young 49 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:40,934 starting the business. 50 00:01:40,934 --> 00:01:42,352 I was one of the early employees there 51 00:01:42,352 --> 00:01:44,020 and none of us had ever bought, 52 00:01:44,020 --> 00:01:45,021 let alone sold a house. 53 00:01:45,021 --> 00:01:48,483 So a lot of it was like learning what that was all about. 54 00:01:48,483 --> 00:01:49,400 And I remember in the early days, 55 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,195 we just were working on writing the copy for the website 56 00:01:52,195 --> 00:01:53,071 and we're like— 57 00:01:53,071 --> 00:01:54,656 You have no idea what a homeowner— 58 00:01:54,656 --> 00:01:56,116 "We don't really know much about this whole thing. 59 00:01:56,116 --> 00:01:57,408 So what can we do about that?" 60 00:01:57,408 --> 00:01:59,327 We just went and sat outside a bagel shop 61 00:01:59,327 --> 00:02:00,995 for a Saturday and a Sunday morning 62 00:02:00,995 --> 00:02:01,996 and just bought people bagels 63 00:02:01,996 --> 00:02:03,832 and just asked them about their processes 64 00:02:03,832 --> 00:02:05,875 buying and selling a home and learned a ton. 65 00:02:05,875 --> 00:02:07,293 And just really 66 00:02:07,293 --> 00:02:09,337 thought about what language they were using, 67 00:02:09,337 --> 00:02:10,713 what were the pain points, 68 00:02:10,713 --> 00:02:11,714 and that was really important 69 00:02:11,714 --> 00:02:13,133 to just like really get to know 70 00:02:13,133 --> 00:02:16,094 what we were trying to deliver on as a business. 71 00:02:16,094 --> 00:02:17,428 And then, you know, 72 00:02:17,428 --> 00:02:20,265 fast forward to joining SpaceX after Opendoor. 73 00:02:20,265 --> 00:02:22,642 I joined as Starlink was coming out of R&D 74 00:02:22,642 --> 00:02:23,977 and into go-to-market. 75 00:02:23,977 --> 00:02:26,688 That's why I was joining. To lead that team 76 00:02:26,688 --> 00:02:28,690 and the business operations there. 77 00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:31,067 And we launch and we get our first customers. 78 00:02:31,067 --> 00:02:33,236 And so I invited our first customers 79 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:36,197 to come join us via Zoom for an all-hands. 80 00:02:36,197 --> 00:02:37,657 And it was honestly the first time 81 00:02:37,657 --> 00:02:39,826 that many of the engineers had actually heard 82 00:02:39,826 --> 00:02:41,619 from the words of a customer themselves 83 00:02:41,619 --> 00:02:42,704 about the experience. 84 00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:45,540 And, of course, everyone loved the internet, right? 85 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:46,708 The fast internet, it was amazing. 86 00:02:46,708 --> 00:02:49,002 Rural Idaho, right? This is like a dream. 87 00:02:49,002 --> 00:02:52,172 But when we got to talking about the setup process, 88 00:02:52,172 --> 00:02:54,257 everyone kind of was like, "Oh, that sounds rough." 89 00:02:54,257 --> 00:02:56,593 They're talking about multiple Home Depot trips. 90 00:02:56,593 --> 00:02:58,178 They didn't know if they had to cut down trees 91 00:02:58,178 --> 00:02:59,012 on their property. 92 00:02:59,012 --> 00:03:00,680 Like they couldn't get a pole long enough. 93 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,725 Ah, so a lot of it was simplifying people's understanding 94 00:03:03,725 --> 00:03:04,559 of what would it mean? 95 00:03:04,559 --> 00:03:05,560 Well, people kind of didn't realize 96 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,438 how much the setup was so painful. 97 00:03:08,438 --> 00:03:12,400 And it led to basically this cross-functional SWAT team 98 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,861 that was dedicated to mounting options 99 00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:17,280 to be sold alongside the dish. 100 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,282 First-party or third-party? 101 00:03:19,282 --> 00:03:20,450 We did it ourselves actually. 102 00:03:20,450 --> 00:03:22,911 We said it's important that we have a good experience 103 00:03:22,911 --> 00:03:25,038 for that because actually it is a big part 104 00:03:25,038 --> 00:03:26,164 of the experience. 105 00:03:26,164 --> 00:03:27,582 And so, spun up a whole team. 106 00:03:27,582 --> 00:03:29,792 A lot of attention was given to mounting, 107 00:03:29,792 --> 00:03:31,085 which is like, who ever would've thought? 108 00:03:31,085 --> 00:03:32,420 And I think, you know, customers again, 109 00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:33,254 they're just like, 110 00:03:33,254 --> 00:03:35,006 they are the reason you start a business. 111 00:03:35,006 --> 00:03:37,967 And just bringing this back to Antares, 112 00:03:37,967 --> 00:03:40,094 I mean, the reason we started Antares 113 00:03:40,094 --> 00:03:43,264 was to say like the government, particularly the military, 114 00:03:43,264 --> 00:03:45,183 needs more energy resilience, 115 00:03:45,183 --> 00:03:46,976 especially for critical infrastructure. 116 00:03:46,976 --> 00:03:51,022 We just do so much more now in the cloud with satellites. 117 00:03:51,022 --> 00:03:53,191 Our missile defense sites are sitting there 118 00:03:53,191 --> 00:03:55,151 like being powered by diesel generators still. 119 00:03:55,151 --> 00:03:56,653 Like, shouldn't we upgrade that? 120 00:03:56,653 --> 00:03:57,946 Okay, so I'll buy it. 121 00:03:57,946 --> 00:03:59,322 What is Antares? 122 00:03:59,322 --> 00:04:00,156 Sure, sure. 123 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:03,701 We're building micro-reactors, so small nuclear reactors, 124 00:04:03,701 --> 00:04:05,453 and we are building, in particular, 125 00:04:05,453 --> 00:04:08,831 for critical infrastructure, largely for the military. 126 00:04:08,831 --> 00:04:11,292 Although we do think that as costs come down, 127 00:04:11,292 --> 00:04:12,835 there will be an interesting commercial market too. 128 00:04:12,835 --> 00:04:16,214 But basically anywhere where you're off-grid for sure, 129 00:04:16,214 --> 00:04:18,925 or you just want resilience behind the grid 130 00:04:18,925 --> 00:04:21,010 as it exists today. 131 00:04:21,010 --> 00:04:22,637 Cyber attacks or whatever, the grid goes down, 132 00:04:22,637 --> 00:04:24,097 you want backup power. 133 00:04:24,097 --> 00:04:25,390 It's a really great option. 134 00:04:25,390 --> 00:04:26,224 Okay. 135 00:04:26,224 --> 00:04:29,394 And if one megawatt is a small neighborhood, 136 00:04:29,394 --> 00:04:32,146 if one gigawatt is like a big nuclear power plant 137 00:04:32,146 --> 00:04:33,982 like in The Simpsons, you know? 138 00:04:33,982 --> 00:04:35,692 What are your SMRs? 139 00:04:35,692 --> 00:04:36,651 Sure, yeah. 140 00:04:36,651 --> 00:04:38,653 There's basically three classes size-wise. 141 00:04:38,653 --> 00:04:41,531 You have the really small ones are the micro-reactors, 142 00:04:41,531 --> 00:04:43,157 and we're actually one of the smallest of those. 143 00:04:43,157 --> 00:04:44,659 So we're even sub-one-megawatt, 144 00:04:44,659 --> 00:04:46,286 we're kind of in the hundreds of kilowatt scale. 145 00:04:46,286 --> 00:04:47,120 You could think of that 146 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,580 as like hundreds of houses worth of electricity. 147 00:04:49,580 --> 00:04:50,540 Then you have the SMRs, 148 00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:52,625 which is kind of this middle-ground bucket, 149 00:04:52,625 --> 00:04:56,296 which is an interesting kind of neither here nor there. 150 00:04:56,296 --> 00:04:58,006 But potentially interesting. 151 00:04:58,006 --> 00:04:59,173 I'm sure we'll get into, 152 00:04:59,173 --> 00:05:00,258 in the hundreds of megawatts 153 00:05:00,258 --> 00:05:01,342 or even 50 megawatts. 154 00:05:01,342 --> 00:05:02,385 And then you have the gigawatt scale. 155 00:05:02,385 --> 00:05:03,303 So a thousand megawatts, 156 00:05:03,303 --> 00:05:04,721 and that's what the current power plants are today. 157 00:05:04,721 --> 00:05:06,014 Okay, so you're sub a megawatt. 158 00:05:06,014 --> 00:05:08,182 So we're super small. I see. Okay. 159 00:05:08,182 --> 00:05:09,851 So you're kind of similar nuclear size 160 00:05:09,851 --> 00:05:11,519 to what will be on a submarine or something like that. 161 00:05:11,519 --> 00:05:12,895 Smaller than that even. 162 00:05:12,895 --> 00:05:14,063 Those are like megawatt scale. 163 00:05:14,063 --> 00:05:14,897 So we're like, 164 00:05:14,897 --> 00:05:17,025 think about like we're the size of a car reactor. 165 00:05:17,025 --> 00:05:18,651 Think about replacing a diesel generator 166 00:05:18,651 --> 00:05:20,361 that's used to power, again, 167 00:05:20,361 --> 00:05:21,529 something that would be on the order 168 00:05:21,529 --> 00:05:23,531 of 200 to 300 homes of electricity. 169 00:05:23,531 --> 00:05:24,657 So it's quite small. Yes. 170 00:05:24,657 --> 00:05:29,620 And so a big part of your focus is providing power 171 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:32,707 in places where you really need that reliability. 172 00:05:32,707 --> 00:05:34,459 Like you're talking about replacing diesel generators. 173 00:05:34,459 --> 00:05:36,419 Is that kind of the design center for you? 174 00:05:36,419 --> 00:05:37,253 Yeah. 175 00:05:37,253 --> 00:05:39,255 Anywhere where you're going to enable a capability, 176 00:05:39,255 --> 00:05:40,715 a mission capability, 177 00:05:40,715 --> 00:05:43,217 that wouldn't really be possible otherwise. 178 00:05:43,217 --> 00:05:45,094 So there's actually some really interesting 179 00:05:45,094 --> 00:05:46,554 space applications, 180 00:05:46,554 --> 00:05:49,307 potentially underwater applications as you move to... 181 00:05:49,307 --> 00:05:50,975 So you move away from like few, 182 00:05:50,975 --> 00:05:54,312 what they call exquisite to attritable systems. 183 00:05:54,312 --> 00:05:57,648 This is where a really small reactor can come in very handy 184 00:05:57,648 --> 00:05:58,816 for, you know, 185 00:05:58,816 --> 00:06:02,570 the submarines are obviously multi-megawatt-powered systems, 186 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:04,113 but these could be kilowatts-powered, 187 00:06:04,113 --> 00:06:05,865 smaller systems underwater. 188 00:06:05,865 --> 00:06:07,784 But yes, anywhere where you're off-grid, 189 00:06:07,784 --> 00:06:09,911 where today you're relying on what they call 190 00:06:09,911 --> 00:06:12,246 like the fuel supply chain 191 00:06:12,246 --> 00:06:14,749 of like bringing in fuel via helicopter 192 00:06:14,749 --> 00:06:16,542 or barge repeatedly. 193 00:06:16,542 --> 00:06:17,960 And that being a vulnerability, 194 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,087 like this is a great option. 195 00:06:19,087 --> 00:06:20,880 So you're the Starlink of electricity. 196 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:21,714 Kind of. 197 00:06:21,714 --> 00:06:24,050 We're actually like perfectly paired. 198 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:26,386 And I wish we could offer a consumer product. 199 00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:27,762 That's not on our roadmap right now, 200 00:06:27,762 --> 00:06:29,055 but maybe one day, like, 201 00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:32,225 backpack-sized nuclear reactor. 202 00:06:32,225 --> 00:06:34,519 I presume it can't be on your roadmap, 203 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:35,353 but why not? 204 00:06:35,353 --> 00:06:36,813 Is it that selling to the government is much easier 205 00:06:36,813 --> 00:06:38,689 than selling to something that— 206 00:06:38,689 --> 00:06:40,066 There's so many reasons. 207 00:06:40,066 --> 00:06:42,026 I think that you always want to try to get your beachhead 208 00:06:42,026 --> 00:06:44,362 where it's the easiest to achieve, right? 209 00:06:44,362 --> 00:06:47,115 And so we believe, I believe that 210 00:06:47,115 --> 00:06:49,617 premium power is where you need to go with nuclear. 211 00:06:49,617 --> 00:06:51,702 And there's sort of two places for that. 212 00:06:51,702 --> 00:06:53,287 One is what we're doing with Antares, 213 00:06:53,287 --> 00:06:55,039 which is go to the military, 214 00:06:55,039 --> 00:06:57,417 help them with mission-critical need 215 00:06:57,417 --> 00:06:59,085 where they're not cost-sensitive, 216 00:06:59,085 --> 00:07:01,170 where they already pay more for power. 217 00:07:01,170 --> 00:07:02,880 And go there and support them 218 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,884 with this next-gen, better version of resilient power. 219 00:07:06,884 --> 00:07:09,011 Or you go and you sell what we're seeing now, I think, 220 00:07:09,011 --> 00:07:10,763 which is really interesting with the hyperscalers, 221 00:07:10,763 --> 00:07:12,640 is they have carbon commitments. 222 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,977 They want clean, firm, they want 24/7 power. 223 00:07:15,977 --> 00:07:17,979 They're actually willing to pay above market rates for that 224 00:07:17,979 --> 00:07:19,188 and they will pay above market rates. 225 00:07:19,188 --> 00:07:20,565 So this premium power thing 226 00:07:20,565 --> 00:07:22,567 is a really interesting dynamic 227 00:07:22,567 --> 00:07:25,278 like where nuclear is kind of well-positioned. 228 00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:27,196 What are the underwater applications? 229 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:29,115 Well, it's really just think mini submarines. 230 00:07:29,115 --> 00:07:30,158 Oh, okay, yeah. 231 00:07:30,158 --> 00:07:32,326 Just really small systems like, you know, 232 00:07:32,326 --> 00:07:34,954 what drones are to maybe like larger missiles. 233 00:07:34,954 --> 00:07:36,581 That's kind of the equivalent. 234 00:07:36,581 --> 00:07:39,167 It's not super far along just yet. 235 00:07:39,167 --> 00:07:40,668 Got it. Okay. 236 00:07:40,668 --> 00:07:44,630 What does the path look like between now 237 00:07:44,630 --> 00:07:47,925 and producing power for the military? 238 00:07:47,925 --> 00:07:50,011 I guess, first in a pilot environment 239 00:07:50,011 --> 00:07:51,512 and then at scale 240 00:07:51,512 --> 00:07:52,722 outside of a pilot environment. 241 00:07:52,722 --> 00:07:54,307 Yeah, well, you know, 242 00:07:54,307 --> 00:07:56,767 it's always what are the next milestones that you can do 243 00:07:56,767 --> 00:08:00,188 to prove your technical ability and again, 244 00:08:00,188 --> 00:08:02,148 raise more capital to keep going with your company? 245 00:08:02,148 --> 00:08:04,650 I think the biggest risk often to hardware companies 246 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:08,279 is you don't get far enough along technically 247 00:08:08,279 --> 00:08:10,114 to merit additional investment. 248 00:08:10,114 --> 00:08:13,201 So we are thinking a lot about our milestones 249 00:08:13,201 --> 00:08:15,036 for reactor development. 250 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:17,038 And so next year our criticality test 251 00:08:17,038 --> 00:08:18,998 is kind of the first milestone. 252 00:08:18,998 --> 00:08:20,583 By end of 2027, we want to have 253 00:08:20,583 --> 00:08:23,002 our first demonstration unit demonstrated. 254 00:08:23,002 --> 00:08:24,545 And what's really exciting is 255 00:08:24,545 --> 00:08:26,839 there's just so much good policy happening right now 256 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:28,508 from the DOE and elsewhere 257 00:08:28,508 --> 00:08:32,762 that is supporting reactor tests and pilot programs. 258 00:08:32,762 --> 00:08:35,681 And so there's just like so much happening 259 00:08:35,681 --> 00:08:38,267 where they're opening up federal land. 260 00:08:38,267 --> 00:08:39,352 They're removing— 261 00:08:39,352 --> 00:08:42,980 starting to remove some of those like NEPA-type regulations 262 00:08:42,980 --> 00:08:44,899 that really just hold everything up. 263 00:08:44,899 --> 00:08:47,026 So there is a clearer path now 264 00:08:47,026 --> 00:08:49,737 than there really ever has been for reactor builds. 265 00:08:49,737 --> 00:08:51,405 Oh, we'll get to the regulatory side. 266 00:08:51,405 --> 00:08:53,032 I have a lot of questions, 267 00:08:53,032 --> 00:08:54,909 but what is your criticality test in 2026? 268 00:08:54,909 --> 00:08:56,410 What does that mean? 269 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:58,037 Yeah, it means that you're testing 270 00:08:58,037 --> 00:09:00,998 that you can actually start your reaction. 271 00:09:00,998 --> 00:09:02,625 So like you've figured out 272 00:09:02,625 --> 00:09:06,170 the right amount of moderator-to-fuel. 273 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:07,797 And you start it going critical. 274 00:09:07,797 --> 00:09:10,424 You don't have it continue on for a while. 275 00:09:10,424 --> 00:09:12,927 You don't typically have a power conversion system 276 00:09:12,927 --> 00:09:15,012 that's actually taking the raw energy 277 00:09:15,012 --> 00:09:17,014 and turning it into electricity. 278 00:09:17,014 --> 00:09:18,641 So it's just one of those initial tests, 279 00:09:18,641 --> 00:09:21,435 like can you start to put all your pieces together? 280 00:09:21,435 --> 00:09:23,771 And when do you, you know, 281 00:09:23,771 --> 00:09:28,234 the fusion guys are all focused on this. 282 00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:30,736 Producing more power than you put in. 283 00:09:30,736 --> 00:09:31,696 I know that's different. 284 00:09:31,696 --> 00:09:33,197 That's a fusion thing, 285 00:09:33,197 --> 00:09:35,908 but when do you actually produce power? 286 00:09:35,908 --> 00:09:37,952 Producing power will be like your first reactor test. 287 00:09:37,952 --> 00:09:39,912 It's like, can you do the whole shebang? 288 00:09:39,912 --> 00:09:41,455 Like you can get this thing up and running. 289 00:09:41,455 --> 00:09:42,790 It's producing power. 290 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:45,751 And that's what we're aiming to do by the end of 2027. 291 00:09:45,751 --> 00:09:47,044 Oh wow, that's like pretty soon. 292 00:09:47,044 --> 00:09:47,878 Yeah. 293 00:09:47,878 --> 00:09:51,340 What does the market look like for these small reactors? 294 00:09:51,340 --> 00:09:52,758 Who are you going to compete with? 295 00:09:52,758 --> 00:09:55,177 Well, the market for micro-reactors 296 00:09:55,177 --> 00:09:56,596 is one of these ones where it's like, well, 297 00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:58,514 there are no micro-reactors today on the market 298 00:09:58,514 --> 00:09:59,932 to just like buy and use. 299 00:09:59,932 --> 00:10:01,225 So what do you think they're going to be, right? 300 00:10:01,225 --> 00:10:03,102 And so I think, first and foremost, 301 00:10:03,102 --> 00:10:05,146 it's going to be the most critical assets 302 00:10:05,146 --> 00:10:07,231 where you just cannot have them go down. 303 00:10:07,231 --> 00:10:10,151 Which is why defense is the perfect first market for it. 304 00:10:10,151 --> 00:10:12,570 And so it's going to be all of your critical infrastructure 305 00:10:12,570 --> 00:10:14,572 on every single base that there is. 306 00:10:14,572 --> 00:10:16,532 Obviously, you'll start with the most critical 307 00:10:16,532 --> 00:10:18,993 of critical missile defense sites and off-grid locations, 308 00:10:18,993 --> 00:10:19,827 things like that. 309 00:10:19,827 --> 00:10:21,370 And that's kind of defense. 310 00:10:21,370 --> 00:10:23,414 Then you think about commercial, 311 00:10:23,414 --> 00:10:26,626 basically you have to see where the cost curves gets you to. 312 00:10:26,626 --> 00:10:28,085 Like how cheap can it get? 313 00:10:28,085 --> 00:10:29,211 This is just like space, right? 314 00:10:29,211 --> 00:10:32,757 It's like those first expensive launches into space 315 00:10:32,757 --> 00:10:34,383 like that better have been a really important thing 316 00:10:34,383 --> 00:10:35,259 you're putting up there, right? 317 00:10:35,259 --> 00:10:37,511 But now that launch cost has come down, 318 00:10:37,511 --> 00:10:38,888 you can start to be like, "Oh, what else? 319 00:10:38,888 --> 00:10:40,514 What else could we do that we can do some more stuff 320 00:10:40,514 --> 00:10:42,850 that's like maybe not so mission-critical?" 321 00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:44,560 I think we'll see the same thing 322 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,312 in the commercial industries. 323 00:10:46,312 --> 00:10:49,398 Oil and gas has a lot of areas 324 00:10:49,398 --> 00:10:52,652 where they, again, use diesel generators 325 00:10:52,652 --> 00:10:55,488 to do things like compressed natural gas 326 00:10:55,488 --> 00:10:56,947 along their pipelines 327 00:10:56,947 --> 00:10:58,366 and they actually have carbon commitments, 328 00:10:58,366 --> 00:10:59,200 which are really interesting 329 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,993 that they're sort of thinking about. 330 00:11:00,993 --> 00:11:02,203 Ironically, right? 331 00:11:02,203 --> 00:11:04,622 Can they move towards some more renewable 332 00:11:04,622 --> 00:11:05,831 or nuclear type resources? 333 00:11:05,831 --> 00:11:06,874 So I think there's going to be 334 00:11:06,874 --> 00:11:08,167 some commercial applications there too. 335 00:11:08,167 --> 00:11:09,585 Mining, for example, too. 336 00:11:09,585 --> 00:11:11,837 Like anything that's just like off-grid, 337 00:11:11,837 --> 00:11:13,506 hard to power today, 338 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:14,840 really hard to get fuel into. 339 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,342 It's perfect market. Yes. 340 00:11:16,342 --> 00:11:17,802 You're probably following the US military, 341 00:11:17,802 --> 00:11:19,095 there's all these controversies right now 342 00:11:19,095 --> 00:11:20,680 with people talking about fuel quality 343 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,683 and fuel contamination issues in Asia, 344 00:11:23,683 --> 00:11:25,184 I think it is. But yeah. 345 00:11:25,184 --> 00:11:26,894 Presumably places where you're worried 346 00:11:26,894 --> 00:11:29,855 about fuel availability at all times 347 00:11:29,855 --> 00:11:32,566 and ensuring that you constantly have access to fuel. 348 00:11:32,566 --> 00:11:35,027 That is the place where there will be the most pull 349 00:11:35,027 --> 00:11:36,237 for these solutions. 350 00:11:36,237 --> 00:11:37,947 Like that's where generators work worst. 351 00:11:37,947 --> 00:11:41,951 Yes, and you know, there's a famous defense quote, 352 00:11:41,951 --> 00:11:44,578 I think it's "unleash us from the tether of fuel," 353 00:11:44,578 --> 00:11:45,746 which means just like, 354 00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:49,709 gosh, the logistics supply chain has been such a challenge. 355 00:11:49,709 --> 00:11:51,544 I mean it was 50% of the— 356 00:11:51,544 --> 00:11:55,798 I think the Afghanistan casualties were from just logistics. 357 00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:57,800 And so, you know, having situations 358 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,885 where you can kind of reduce that risk 359 00:11:59,885 --> 00:12:02,847 helps and it's a great market fit. 360 00:12:02,847 --> 00:12:03,681 Yes. 361 00:12:03,681 --> 00:12:04,640 You were saying there's no market 362 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,184 for these small reactors today. 363 00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:08,352 Why not? 364 00:12:08,352 --> 00:12:09,186 Like— 365 00:12:09,186 --> 00:12:10,855 We've had nuclear fission technology 366 00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:12,273 for a long time. 367 00:12:12,273 --> 00:12:13,107 Yeah. 368 00:12:13,107 --> 00:12:14,483 Why hasn't it been done? 369 00:12:14,483 --> 00:12:15,526 Gosh, there's so many reasons. 370 00:12:15,526 --> 00:12:16,610 I think we ended up... 371 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:19,530 I think there was just a macro really negative climate 372 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:20,656 around nuclear in general. 373 00:12:20,656 --> 00:12:22,575 So it impacted anything small as well, 374 00:12:22,575 --> 00:12:24,201 coming out of the seventies, 375 00:12:24,201 --> 00:12:29,123 and so you had macro forces related to just like inflation, 376 00:12:29,123 --> 00:12:30,624 kind of just cost of capital. 377 00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:31,876 People stopped building, 378 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:34,003 which coincided with the environmental movement, 379 00:12:34,003 --> 00:12:35,963 which was extremely anti-nuclear. 380 00:12:35,963 --> 00:12:39,675 They actually sort of conflated nuclear weapons testing 381 00:12:39,675 --> 00:12:42,678 even with—it was just like "no nukes" with energy. 382 00:12:42,678 --> 00:12:44,722 It's like, "Oh that's actually pretty different." 383 00:12:44,722 --> 00:12:46,474 So a lot of things converged in the seventies 384 00:12:46,474 --> 00:12:48,684 and then by the eighties we stopped building in nuclear. 385 00:12:48,684 --> 00:12:49,518 Okay. 386 00:12:49,518 --> 00:12:51,270 So you just view it as a part of the general 387 00:12:51,270 --> 00:12:55,399 anti-nuclear swing and thus also led to 388 00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:57,943 the cessation of construction 389 00:12:57,943 --> 00:13:00,529 of new nuclear plants in the US and everything like this. 390 00:13:00,529 --> 00:13:03,491 Your corner of the market also got caught up in that. 391 00:13:03,491 --> 00:13:06,035 And that's why we haven't ended up with them. 392 00:13:06,035 --> 00:13:09,580 Were there ever products available at this size range? 393 00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:12,041 There were but they were pretty few and far between. 394 00:13:12,041 --> 00:13:15,336 Mostly test reactors, small things built. 395 00:13:15,336 --> 00:13:18,297 We actually put one reactor into space in the 1960s 396 00:13:18,297 --> 00:13:19,131 to test that out. 397 00:13:19,131 --> 00:13:20,758 Did it work? 398 00:13:20,758 --> 00:13:21,592 Yeah, for a bit. 399 00:13:21,592 --> 00:13:23,260 I mean, a few months and was like, 400 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:24,178 let's try to do some 401 00:13:24,178 --> 00:13:25,971 systems in space with power. 402 00:13:25,971 --> 00:13:27,431 It's important to have power in space 403 00:13:27,431 --> 00:13:30,059 and I think that's a whole other frontier. 404 00:13:30,059 --> 00:13:33,813 Obviously the US did have this long-running, 405 00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:38,400 anti-nuclear bent where I grew up in Ireland similarly. 406 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,485 Yeah, there was the exact same thing 407 00:13:39,485 --> 00:13:40,694 and Ireland was very paranoid 408 00:13:40,694 --> 00:13:44,198 about a particular British nuclear power plant, Sellafield, 409 00:13:44,198 --> 00:13:47,076 that was just across the channel from Ireland. 410 00:13:47,076 --> 00:13:49,036 Does Ireland have nuclear? 411 00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:50,913 Ireland has no nuclear power. 412 00:13:50,913 --> 00:13:51,831 The UK does. France does. 413 00:13:51,831 --> 00:13:52,790 Ireland does not. 414 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:55,125 And I believe it's banned 415 00:13:55,125 --> 00:13:57,795 and so you can't, per the current rules. 416 00:13:57,795 --> 00:13:59,588 There's actually many states in the US 417 00:13:59,588 --> 00:14:00,422 that have bans as well, 418 00:14:00,422 --> 00:14:02,049 but they've just been falling left and right. 419 00:14:02,049 --> 00:14:03,008 It's so cool to see. 420 00:14:03,008 --> 00:14:04,635 Well I was going to ask this. 421 00:14:04,635 --> 00:14:09,223 The vibe has really shifted over the past 10 to 15 years. 422 00:14:09,223 --> 00:14:10,558 Yep. 423 00:14:10,558 --> 00:14:11,600 Why? 424 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,185 Honestly, it reminds me of gay marriage. 425 00:14:13,185 --> 00:14:15,604 I mean, and if you look at the polling. 426 00:14:15,604 --> 00:14:17,356 It came from the youth, right? 427 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:18,858 It definitely comes from youth for sure. 428 00:14:18,858 --> 00:14:21,694 But it's like, it just... Enough things add up 429 00:14:21,694 --> 00:14:24,154 and it just swings and no one ever looks back type of thing. 430 00:14:24,154 --> 00:14:25,489 That's how it feels. 431 00:14:25,489 --> 00:14:27,741 The percentage point change we've seen 432 00:14:27,741 --> 00:14:29,743 in the last five to 10 years is almost 20 points. 433 00:14:29,743 --> 00:14:31,453 It's like 17 points or something. 434 00:14:31,453 --> 00:14:34,623 So it's 60-plus percent of people support nuclear. 435 00:14:34,623 --> 00:14:36,584 It's actually almost surprising it's that low in some ways. 436 00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:40,212 But yeah, it's just huge public sentiment shift. 437 00:14:40,212 --> 00:14:44,174 And I think the old hippie nuclear testing 438 00:14:44,174 --> 00:14:47,261 or nuclear weapons testing folks are kind of dying out. 439 00:14:47,261 --> 00:14:51,098 What is wild though is I did a little kind of activism 440 00:14:51,098 --> 00:14:53,726 related to Diablo Canyon Power Plant here in California, 441 00:14:53,726 --> 00:14:55,728 which was slated to be shut down this year. 442 00:14:55,728 --> 00:14:56,729 Sure, yeah. 443 00:14:56,729 --> 00:14:58,355 And just a few years ago, 444 00:14:58,355 --> 00:15:00,357 Newsom had to kind of begrudgingly say like, 445 00:15:00,357 --> 00:15:01,150 "Oh, you know what, 446 00:15:01,150 --> 00:15:02,318 we probably should keep this thing on. 447 00:15:02,318 --> 00:15:04,737 We can't afford to have the power going out." 448 00:15:04,737 --> 00:15:06,614 But I listened in on some hearings 449 00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:08,032 and actually gave some testimony there. 450 00:15:08,032 --> 00:15:09,491 And it was so funny to me 451 00:15:09,491 --> 00:15:11,744 that the biggest organization that showed up 452 00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:14,830 against Diablo Canyon was called "Mothers for Peace." 453 00:15:14,830 --> 00:15:17,750 And it's like, do you understand the irony of your name? 454 00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:18,834 This organization was that old 455 00:15:18,834 --> 00:15:21,754 that it was related to like the nuclear Cold War. 456 00:15:21,754 --> 00:15:22,588 Right? Totally. 457 00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:24,089 And it's like, gosh, we've moved on. 458 00:15:24,089 --> 00:15:25,799 We were joking because I, sort of, am part 459 00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:28,427 of this "Mothers for Nuclear" organization 460 00:15:28,427 --> 00:15:30,304 that's like tongue in cheek a bit on that. 461 00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:31,347 Our mothers against their mothers. 462 00:15:31,347 --> 00:15:34,016 Yeah, our mothers against their mothers. 463 00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:36,018 And it's just funny how old school 464 00:15:36,018 --> 00:15:37,728 a lot of that opposition is. 465 00:15:37,728 --> 00:15:40,648 So I guess as a "science advances one death at a time" 466 00:15:40,648 --> 00:15:45,653 dynamic going on here, whereas the memory of the 1960s 467 00:15:45,945 --> 00:15:49,990 and peak nuclear confrontation 468 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:52,576 and, you know, Three Mile Island and all these things. 469 00:15:52,576 --> 00:15:54,286 As all that fades, 470 00:15:54,286 --> 00:15:56,121 maybe it creates an environment 471 00:15:56,121 --> 00:15:57,623 where people could be more supportive of nuclear. 472 00:15:57,623 --> 00:15:58,874 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 473 00:15:58,874 --> 00:16:00,542 What was your activism around Diablo Canyon? 474 00:16:00,542 --> 00:16:01,460 It was just exactly that. 475 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:03,462 It was like, let's make sure that this actually passes 476 00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:05,005 and we don't shut it down. 477 00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:05,839 But it's safe. 478 00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:06,840 But there was a lot of people just calling and saying, 479 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,927 "Hey listen, nuclear's super safe, it's carbon-free. 480 00:16:09,927 --> 00:16:12,388 Ostensibly, in California, we care about these things. 481 00:16:12,388 --> 00:16:13,681 Let's support this. 482 00:16:13,681 --> 00:16:16,517 Let's overturn whatever legislation was done 483 00:16:16,517 --> 00:16:18,560 10 years ago that said we should shut this thing down." 484 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:19,395 And it did pass. 485 00:16:19,395 --> 00:16:21,313 So now we do still have it open. 486 00:16:21,313 --> 00:16:24,274 Everyone on "Progress Twitter" likes to complain 487 00:16:24,274 --> 00:16:25,901 about the NRC, 488 00:16:25,901 --> 00:16:28,779 but for the NRC we would be living in 489 00:16:28,779 --> 00:16:31,615 that Jetsons vision of the future 490 00:16:31,615 --> 00:16:33,200 and everyone would have their 491 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,952 nuclear-powered car that they used to drive 492 00:16:34,952 --> 00:16:36,829 to their nuclear-powered office and everything. 493 00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:39,164 Is that true? 494 00:16:39,164 --> 00:16:41,291 How good or bad is the current regulatory environment? 495 00:16:41,291 --> 00:16:42,793 How much is that changing? 496 00:16:42,793 --> 00:16:43,877 Yeah, yeah. 497 00:16:43,877 --> 00:16:47,381 I think it's an overestimated headwind. Certainly today. 498 00:16:47,381 --> 00:16:49,174 I think if you go back five years ago, 499 00:16:49,174 --> 00:16:50,300 10 years ago for sure, 500 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,387 I mean they hadn't licensed anything in decades. 501 00:16:53,387 --> 00:16:54,722 There had been nothing new. 502 00:16:55,764 --> 00:16:58,642 But I can't even tell you how much has changed 503 00:16:58,642 --> 00:16:59,518 in the last few years. 504 00:16:59,518 --> 00:17:00,811 It's kind of remarkable. 505 00:17:00,811 --> 00:17:02,771 And it's been across both the Biden 506 00:17:02,771 --> 00:17:03,981 and the Trump administration, 507 00:17:03,981 --> 00:17:04,898 which is amazing to see. 508 00:17:04,898 --> 00:17:07,693 The legislation around nuclear passes like 509 00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:10,738 95 to 5 type of thing, right? 510 00:17:10,738 --> 00:17:13,657 It's like really, really strong bipartisan... 511 00:17:13,657 --> 00:17:16,452 What was interesting to see is it started with Biden, 512 00:17:16,452 --> 00:17:19,204 a bunch of legislation related to modernizing 513 00:17:19,204 --> 00:17:20,706 and reforming the NRC. 514 00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:23,250 The biggest thing they did was they changed the mandate 515 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:24,710 of the NRC and they said, 516 00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:27,463 "You are no longer focused just on safety," 517 00:17:27,463 --> 00:17:28,672 because what's the safest number 518 00:17:28,672 --> 00:17:30,257 of nuclear reactors to license? 519 00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:32,634 Zero, so they expanded that, 520 00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:34,470 "You must consider the full environment, 521 00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:36,055 the full civilization." 522 00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:36,972 That's great. 523 00:17:36,972 --> 00:17:38,557 And then just change things around 524 00:17:38,557 --> 00:17:41,268 like the advanced reactor pathway, 525 00:17:41,268 --> 00:17:42,478 removing some of the barriers. 526 00:17:42,478 --> 00:17:44,104 And then it's continued on with Trump 527 00:17:44,104 --> 00:17:45,272 and in fact he's sort of added 528 00:17:45,272 --> 00:17:48,317 even some more teeth and specificity. 529 00:17:48,317 --> 00:17:50,444 So right now, they've changed it to, 530 00:17:50,444 --> 00:17:53,864 "You have 18 months to get your answer from the NRC. 531 00:17:53,864 --> 00:17:54,948 License or no license." 532 00:17:54,948 --> 00:17:57,159 Like do you pass or not? 533 00:17:57,159 --> 00:17:59,828 And what happens if they exceed the 18-month window? 534 00:17:59,828 --> 00:18:02,122 You know, probably it's in the details somewhere. 535 00:18:02,122 --> 00:18:05,000 But the point is that these have been declared 536 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,294 that timeliness is important. 537 00:18:07,294 --> 00:18:08,545 There's also been some leadership change, 538 00:18:08,545 --> 00:18:11,173 which is just more reform-oriented, which is great, 539 00:18:11,173 --> 00:18:12,883 and there's just a huge microscope on it. 540 00:18:12,883 --> 00:18:13,842 Everyone's watching. 541 00:18:13,842 --> 00:18:17,638 Everyone knows who's submitting their paperwork 542 00:18:17,638 --> 00:18:20,015 and what's going to come out the other side. 543 00:18:20,015 --> 00:18:21,934 Another thing that happened with some of these Trump 544 00:18:21,934 --> 00:18:24,603 executive orders is the DOE pathways, 545 00:18:24,603 --> 00:18:25,729 Department of Energy pathways, 546 00:18:25,729 --> 00:18:29,108 have been also unopened and unblocked for test reactors. 547 00:18:29,108 --> 00:18:30,609 And so actually Antares is part 548 00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:33,904 of this new test reactor program which allows the DOE 549 00:18:34,947 --> 00:18:37,116 alongside usually like Idaho National Lab 550 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,451 to be sort of your regulator 551 00:18:39,451 --> 00:18:41,662 as you're testing your first reactors 552 00:18:41,662 --> 00:18:43,664 so that you don't have to spend all this time upfront 553 00:18:43,664 --> 00:18:45,249 with the NRC for something 554 00:18:45,249 --> 00:18:48,377 that you're just still innovating on and iterating on. 555 00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:50,879 And so that's a really nice, I think, 556 00:18:50,879 --> 00:18:53,215 first step before you go through the NRC. 557 00:18:53,215 --> 00:18:55,050 Wait, so let me make sure I'm giving this right. 558 00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:56,927 There is now a Trump-era change 559 00:18:56,927 --> 00:18:58,679 where we essentially for the first time ever 560 00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:00,764 have a second nuclear regulator 561 00:19:00,764 --> 00:19:02,724 where you can go the NRC path 562 00:19:02,724 --> 00:19:06,019 but also there's a regulatory sandbox where you can start 563 00:19:06,019 --> 00:19:09,648 by working with the DOE and get up and running there. 564 00:19:09,648 --> 00:19:11,233 Yeah, that's essentially right. 565 00:19:11,233 --> 00:19:12,609 How big is the sandbox? 566 00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:15,028 I mean, the DOE has always been a path. 567 00:19:15,028 --> 00:19:16,572 There actually technically has always been a path 568 00:19:16,572 --> 00:19:17,614 within the military 569 00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,491 because they license their own reactors with submarines. 570 00:19:19,491 --> 00:19:21,535 So it's always kind of been there but 571 00:19:21,535 --> 00:19:24,913 hard to navigate, not well-staffed, not well-known about. 572 00:19:24,913 --> 00:19:27,040 And now it's like everyone's watching. 573 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,919 Let's go DOE, let's go INL, 574 00:19:30,919 --> 00:19:33,589 Idaho National Lab, and let's make these things happen. 575 00:19:33,589 --> 00:19:35,632 So there's just been a lot of stated like, 576 00:19:35,632 --> 00:19:37,551 "You must enable this thing." 577 00:19:37,551 --> 00:19:39,261 And like, now here's some... 578 00:19:39,261 --> 00:19:41,513 It's actually a $0 program, 579 00:19:41,513 --> 00:19:43,932 but it gives you unlimited access to staff 580 00:19:43,932 --> 00:19:45,475 and all these other things. 581 00:19:45,475 --> 00:19:47,144 And the point is like everyone's watching 582 00:19:47,144 --> 00:19:48,312 to see how fast you can get 583 00:19:48,312 --> 00:19:50,022 one of these reactors through safely. 584 00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:51,690 So are you guys going the DOE routes first? 585 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:52,816 Yep, we are. 586 00:19:52,816 --> 00:19:55,903 And the DOD route, I mean to say like, 587 00:19:55,903 --> 00:20:00,490 the Army is now also able to license its own reactors, 588 00:20:00,490 --> 00:20:03,410 alongside the Navy which already does. 589 00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:05,204 So that will absolutely be our first stop. 590 00:20:05,204 --> 00:20:10,083 The NRC really only regulates civilian electricity. 591 00:20:10,083 --> 00:20:11,501 So civilian power. 592 00:20:11,501 --> 00:20:13,003 So we actually don't need to even go there yet. 593 00:20:13,003 --> 00:20:13,837 I see. 594 00:20:13,837 --> 00:20:15,214 So you could be selling a lot of reactors 595 00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:16,798 and never go through the NRC. 596 00:20:16,798 --> 00:20:20,719 We'll basically do our test reactors with the DOE. 597 00:20:20,719 --> 00:20:23,305 Alongside the DOD who can now— 598 00:20:23,305 --> 00:20:25,515 who has the jurisdiction to regulate. 599 00:20:25,515 --> 00:20:27,976 Which is great. I didn't know that. 600 00:20:27,976 --> 00:20:29,895 So this is the rare bipartisan issue. 601 00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:32,231 It's a true... Kind of a gem. 602 00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:37,236 I can paint three clean energy futures. 603 00:20:37,277 --> 00:20:42,241 One is the solar and regular renewables view. 604 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:44,493 You know, Casey Handmer was just on this podcast. 605 00:20:44,493 --> 00:20:46,578 And solar will get very cheap. 606 00:20:46,578 --> 00:20:48,580 Batteries will get cheap enough 607 00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:52,084 such that you can go all in on solar and batteries. 608 00:20:52,084 --> 00:20:53,627 Maybe some other renewables in the mix. 609 00:20:53,627 --> 00:20:54,711 But there you go. That's it. 610 00:20:54,711 --> 00:20:56,171 Nothing will be able to cost-compete with that. 611 00:20:56,171 --> 00:20:57,256 That's one vision. 612 00:20:57,256 --> 00:21:00,550 Another is that we will rediscover nuclear fission 613 00:21:00,550 --> 00:21:03,011 and we'll figure out the spent fuel 614 00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:04,137 and everything like that. 615 00:21:04,137 --> 00:21:07,182 And we'll just do what we used to do, 616 00:21:07,182 --> 00:21:10,310 which is build nuclear power plants at larger scale. 617 00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:12,396 And that delivers us enough clean energy. 618 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:15,816 A third view is that fusion will work 619 00:21:15,816 --> 00:21:19,361 and we'll actually have nuclear fusion at 620 00:21:19,361 --> 00:21:21,488 useful, meaningful scale of the grid. 621 00:21:21,488 --> 00:21:23,073 Between those scenarios, 622 00:21:23,073 --> 00:21:24,366 how would you handicap them? 623 00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:26,660 I think it's... You know, I'm going to leave fusion out 624 00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:27,828 because I'm not enough of an expert 625 00:21:27,828 --> 00:21:30,372 to know when and how that will happen. 626 00:21:30,372 --> 00:21:31,331 I would love for that to happen. 627 00:21:31,331 --> 00:21:32,541 How exciting, right? 628 00:21:32,541 --> 00:21:34,293 Between the first two, 629 00:21:34,293 --> 00:21:38,338 we do a lot of market manipulation of our energy markets 630 00:21:38,338 --> 00:21:40,007 and there's a little bit of like, 631 00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:42,551 flavor of the administration that does happen, 632 00:21:42,551 --> 00:21:45,345 especially between renewables and oil and gas, right? 633 00:21:45,345 --> 00:21:48,181 Nuclear's been a little bit actually 634 00:21:48,181 --> 00:21:49,558 immune to that. 635 00:21:49,558 --> 00:21:52,060 But there hasn't really been almost a true market 636 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:52,894 for this stuff. 637 00:21:52,894 --> 00:21:54,938 Like the renewables have been heavily subsidized 638 00:21:54,938 --> 00:21:57,482 for a while and nuclear has not been. 639 00:21:57,482 --> 00:21:59,526 That did change in 2022 with the IRA. 640 00:21:59,526 --> 00:22:01,403 There's now production tax credits for nuclear, 641 00:22:01,403 --> 00:22:03,572 which has a lot of ripple effects. 642 00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:06,033 But I think we're going to see a lot more progress 643 00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:07,868 with solar and batteries in particular. 644 00:22:07,868 --> 00:22:10,912 There is a reason, however, that the hyperscalers 645 00:22:10,912 --> 00:22:13,040 who are committed to their climate targets 646 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,709 are not just going for, you know, solar farms. 647 00:22:15,709 --> 00:22:17,544 Like why are even thinking about nuclear 648 00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:18,837 if solar is so cheap? 649 00:22:18,837 --> 00:22:20,005 And it's because actually 650 00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:23,425 to get true hundred percent, 24/7 coverage, 651 00:22:23,425 --> 00:22:26,094 the battery or the excess build-out is massive. 652 00:22:26,094 --> 00:22:27,596 It is really expensive. 653 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,307 It's basically on par with nuclear costs. 654 00:22:30,307 --> 00:22:31,933 So we're not there yet. 655 00:22:31,933 --> 00:22:33,226 It's one thing to say. 656 00:22:33,226 --> 00:22:36,855 The other is that the cost of solar 657 00:22:36,855 --> 00:22:39,775 at the panel level is dirt cheap, right? 658 00:22:39,775 --> 00:22:41,526 And installing it dirt cheap, 659 00:22:41,526 --> 00:22:44,237 but to actually integrate it, build the transmission, 660 00:22:44,237 --> 00:22:47,115 and then the added grid complexity 661 00:22:47,115 --> 00:22:49,993 where you need now these peaker gas plants to run 662 00:22:49,993 --> 00:22:51,953 when the the clouds come 663 00:22:51,953 --> 00:22:52,788 and that kind of thing. 664 00:22:52,788 --> 00:22:54,373 That actually has a ton of costs 665 00:22:54,373 --> 00:22:55,499 and it's sort of hidden costs. 666 00:22:55,499 --> 00:22:57,793 I think it's underappreciated certainly 667 00:22:57,793 --> 00:22:59,711 by the solar maxis out there. 668 00:22:59,711 --> 00:23:01,421 It's real, you know, 669 00:23:01,421 --> 00:23:03,799 and so I think we're always going to want to have 670 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:06,134 multiple sources of energy, right? 671 00:23:06,134 --> 00:23:08,053 It's like diversity is good. 672 00:23:08,053 --> 00:23:09,012 It's like if one thing— 673 00:23:09,012 --> 00:23:11,181 if natural gas prices are through the roof, hey, 674 00:23:11,181 --> 00:23:12,140 we have these other things. 675 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:14,017 We have this base load nuclear, 676 00:23:14,017 --> 00:23:17,104 which has been just like so stable for us. 677 00:23:17,104 --> 00:23:18,814 And I think we're going to want to have everything. 678 00:23:18,814 --> 00:23:20,273 I actually don't think there's going to be a world 679 00:23:20,273 --> 00:23:23,026 that's going to be like a hundred percent nuclear. 680 00:23:23,026 --> 00:23:27,030 But is diversity of energy sources valuable because 681 00:23:27,030 --> 00:23:29,574 the solar maximalist would say, "No, it's fine. 682 00:23:29,574 --> 00:23:31,243 Solar will just take everything." 683 00:23:31,243 --> 00:23:33,912 And wouldn't the nuclear maximalist say 684 00:23:33,912 --> 00:23:35,205 just we can have a lot of, you know, 685 00:23:35,205 --> 00:23:37,541 we figure out how to at scale produce nuclear power plants 686 00:23:37,541 --> 00:23:38,875 and why do you need nat gas? 687 00:23:38,875 --> 00:23:40,377 Why do you need anything else? 688 00:23:40,377 --> 00:23:43,171 It's a good push if you are able to own, 689 00:23:43,171 --> 00:23:45,715 through and through, your whole supply chain. 690 00:23:45,715 --> 00:23:46,800 You make the panels. 691 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,094 You mine and process the minerals, 692 00:23:49,094 --> 00:23:51,471 which we have like zero interest in doing as Americans. 693 00:23:51,471 --> 00:23:54,224 All that dirty work is done in China and elsewhere. 694 00:23:54,224 --> 00:23:55,517 If you really did all that yourself, 695 00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:58,061 then I could say, okay, you own it. You can do it. 696 00:23:58,061 --> 00:23:59,396 Right now at least you have, 697 00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:01,648 "Hey, if your natural gas pipelines get shut down, 698 00:24:01,648 --> 00:24:02,774 actually it's not a problem for us. 699 00:24:02,774 --> 00:24:05,819 We're not even an importer anymore. 700 00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:07,571 We're actually good." 701 00:24:07,571 --> 00:24:08,864 This is actually the reason that... 702 00:24:08,864 --> 00:24:11,658 Do you know what percentage of France's electricity 703 00:24:11,658 --> 00:24:12,784 is from nuclear? 704 00:24:13,702 --> 00:24:14,995 It's declining, right? 705 00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:17,414 But historically it's been around 70%. 706 00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:18,248 Yep. Yeah. 707 00:24:18,248 --> 00:24:19,791 Do you know the US? 708 00:24:19,791 --> 00:24:20,667 The US for nuclear? 709 00:24:20,667 --> 00:24:23,587 Oh, it's small. It's 5-10%. 710 00:24:23,587 --> 00:24:24,754 It's actually more. 711 00:24:24,754 --> 00:24:25,881 Really? 18. 712 00:24:25,881 --> 00:24:26,673 Oh, okay. 713 00:24:26,673 --> 00:24:28,300 And everyone thinks it's below 5-10%. 714 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:29,759 It's like, when I got into this, 715 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:30,927 I thought it was like 2%. 716 00:24:30,927 --> 00:24:33,263 But anyway, my point is that France made a very, 717 00:24:33,263 --> 00:24:35,724 very deliberate decision to actually go to 70%, 718 00:24:35,724 --> 00:24:37,934 if not more at the time in the seventies 719 00:24:37,934 --> 00:24:39,853 because they had no carbon resources. 720 00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:41,188 So they didn't have the ability to say, 721 00:24:41,188 --> 00:24:43,899 "Oh, we'll just dig in our backyard and we'll be fine." 722 00:24:43,899 --> 00:24:47,235 And actually uranium, while it does require 723 00:24:47,235 --> 00:24:48,195 digging out of ground or whatever, 724 00:24:48,195 --> 00:24:49,905 is so much easier to store. 725 00:24:49,905 --> 00:24:52,657 It's a million times as dense as coal. 726 00:24:52,657 --> 00:24:55,076 So it's a lot easier to work with than... 727 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:58,246 The reason people get uptight about oil and gas supply 728 00:24:58,246 --> 00:25:00,207 is that it's like not easy to store. 729 00:25:00,207 --> 00:25:01,917 And if it's not easier for you to come by, 730 00:25:01,917 --> 00:25:04,669 you better well have good geopolitical relationships. 731 00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:05,962 Yes, yes. So anyway, 732 00:25:05,962 --> 00:25:07,339 this world and where it's headed, 733 00:25:07,339 --> 00:25:10,842 I think it's still going to involve multiple sources. 734 00:25:17,807 --> 00:25:20,227 Julia's work involves managing a lot of risk: 735 00:25:20,227 --> 00:25:21,895 unsolved physics, complex engineering, 736 00:25:21,895 --> 00:25:23,772 and a lot of regulatory scrutiny. 737 00:25:23,772 --> 00:25:25,565 Managing risk for an internet retailer 738 00:25:25,565 --> 00:25:26,775 shouldn't be that complex, 739 00:25:26,775 --> 00:25:28,485 but sometimes it can feel like it. 740 00:25:28,485 --> 00:25:31,279 Internet fraudsters now operate on industrial scales. 741 00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:32,989 They attack strategically when you're sleeping 742 00:25:32,989 --> 00:25:35,450 and they use AI to sharpen their attacks now. 743 00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:38,537 Stripe's defense against fraud comes from its scale. 744 00:25:38,537 --> 00:25:40,038 When a payment happens on your site, 745 00:25:40,038 --> 00:25:42,832 there's a 92% chance we've seen that exact card before. 746 00:25:42,832 --> 00:25:45,043 So it's easier for us to spot misuse. 747 00:25:45,043 --> 00:25:46,294 And we recently expanded Radar 748 00:25:46,294 --> 00:25:47,796 to block other kinds of fraud, 749 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:51,132 like free trial abuse, promotion abuse and refund abuse. 750 00:25:51,132 --> 00:25:53,510 Stripe now processes trillions of dollars of payments 751 00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:56,054 each year and every transaction in the Stripe network 752 00:25:56,054 --> 00:25:58,098 makes the next one safer for everyone. 753 00:25:58,098 --> 00:25:59,808 So you can focus on your product 754 00:25:59,808 --> 00:26:02,894 and not on developing a world-class counter-fraud division. 755 00:26:02,894 --> 00:26:04,271 To let Radar handle the fraud 756 00:26:04,271 --> 00:26:06,189 so you can get back to building your product, 757 00:26:06,189 --> 00:26:07,983 go to stripe.com/radar. 758 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:13,905 Tell me about the supply chain for nuclear fuels. 759 00:26:13,905 --> 00:26:15,115 Yeah, I mean, 760 00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:16,491 you dig uranium out of the ground 761 00:26:16,491 --> 00:26:19,369 and then you need to convert it to a gaseous state 762 00:26:19,369 --> 00:26:21,037 so that you can enrich it and have the... 763 00:26:21,037 --> 00:26:22,789 you kind of put in a centrifuge. 764 00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:25,667 It goes like this and the heavier isotopes go out 765 00:26:25,667 --> 00:26:27,502 and the lighter ones stay in 766 00:26:27,502 --> 00:26:29,754 and you can pick those out and make those into your fuel. 767 00:26:29,754 --> 00:26:31,881 The mining part has been something 768 00:26:31,881 --> 00:26:33,091 that we've hardly kept alive. 769 00:26:33,091 --> 00:26:33,925 I mean there was, at one point, 770 00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:37,512 a couple of mining operations going in the US. 771 00:26:37,512 --> 00:26:38,930 The last 10 years or so, 772 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:42,017 it's been like 1% of nuclear fuel used in the US 773 00:26:42,017 --> 00:26:44,561 was actually domestically mined. 774 00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,396 Where are the last uranium mines in the US? 775 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:48,231 They're places where you would think: 776 00:26:48,231 --> 00:26:50,483 Texas, Wyoming, those sorts of places. 777 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,361 In the western states. 778 00:26:53,361 --> 00:26:55,780 But we now again, like everything else have said, 779 00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:57,824 "Okay, wake up, let's actually reshore some of this stuff." 780 00:26:57,824 --> 00:27:00,619 So we're starting to see more uranium mining. 781 00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:03,455 Conversion and enrichment is still largely done overseas. 782 00:27:03,455 --> 00:27:07,292 And yeah, we're still buying like almost 50% of our uranium 783 00:27:07,292 --> 00:27:10,420 from Russia and kind of ex-Soviet states. 784 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:13,798 So I think it is important that we're thinking about like, 785 00:27:13,798 --> 00:27:16,343 how do we have far more of a domestic supply chain? 786 00:27:16,343 --> 00:27:17,552 We have the ability to do it. 787 00:27:17,552 --> 00:27:19,220 We have the uranium and actually 788 00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:21,598 there's a little bit of Silicon Valley DNA 789 00:27:21,598 --> 00:27:23,892 entering the space with General Matter, 790 00:27:23,892 --> 00:27:26,144 which is Scott Nolan's company out of Founders Fund. 791 00:27:26,144 --> 00:27:28,438 So he's getting into the enrichment space. 792 00:27:28,438 --> 00:27:30,315 They're a uranium enrichment company. 793 00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:32,233 They're a uranium enrichment company, 794 00:27:32,233 --> 00:27:36,488 which is like real picks and shovels for a real hard 795 00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:38,948 atoms business to do that. 796 00:27:38,948 --> 00:27:41,159 But I think it's really meaningful work. 797 00:27:41,159 --> 00:27:42,452 I think it's really important. 798 00:27:42,452 --> 00:27:44,621 Do you care more about the mining, 799 00:27:44,621 --> 00:27:45,914 the enrichment happening in the US, 800 00:27:45,914 --> 00:27:47,916 or just there has to be 801 00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:48,958 an independent supply chain for the whole thing? 802 00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:51,086 I think you just want diversity. 803 00:27:51,086 --> 00:27:53,588 You know, you don't want everything from one place. 804 00:27:53,588 --> 00:27:55,215 And I think we do want to have capability. 805 00:27:55,215 --> 00:27:58,259 So I think all of it should be at least partially done here 806 00:27:58,259 --> 00:27:59,260 and with our allies. 807 00:27:59,260 --> 00:28:00,595 How did you end up starting Antares? 808 00:28:00,595 --> 00:28:01,429 Gosh, I mean... 809 00:28:01,429 --> 00:28:02,722 Like most people do not happen on this kind of idea. 810 00:28:02,722 --> 00:28:04,849 No, you kind of don't really happen upon it. 811 00:28:04,849 --> 00:28:06,893 I was working at SpaceX at the time 812 00:28:06,893 --> 00:28:09,771 when I first started reading about nuclear. 813 00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:11,272 And it was when I was actually working 814 00:28:11,272 --> 00:28:13,233 on getting Starlinks into Ukraine. 815 00:28:13,233 --> 00:28:15,694 So after Russia invaded Ukraine. 816 00:28:15,694 --> 00:28:17,862 And I just started like reading more 817 00:28:17,862 --> 00:28:18,947 about the conflict there, 818 00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:20,448 probably more than I normally would have, 819 00:28:20,448 --> 00:28:22,575 because I was actually speaking with Ukrainians 820 00:28:22,575 --> 00:28:24,911 and like thinking about what was going on there. 821 00:28:24,911 --> 00:28:25,745 I was a history major. 822 00:28:25,745 --> 00:28:27,497 So I think there was just a little bit of like, 823 00:28:27,497 --> 00:28:29,958 "Oh, geopolitics. Resources are important." 824 00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:31,960 Russia has a lot of resources. 825 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,672 You know, randomly, my cousin is the CEO of a glass factory, 826 00:28:35,672 --> 00:28:37,507 making literally glasses like this. 827 00:28:37,507 --> 00:28:38,341 And he is like, 828 00:28:38,341 --> 00:28:40,301 "We're going bankrupt because of energy prices." 829 00:28:40,301 --> 00:28:42,387 And you're like, "Golly, what is going on?" 830 00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:44,180 And then I read about Germany 831 00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:45,932 and the nuclear power plants they were shutting off 832 00:28:45,932 --> 00:28:47,892 to turn on coal in a place that is like— 833 00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:49,102 It was so insane. Green Party. 834 00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:50,270 Crazy, right? Lost their minds. 835 00:28:50,270 --> 00:28:53,148 So I was like, "What could be so compelling 836 00:28:53,148 --> 00:28:55,108 that someone would do something 837 00:28:55,108 --> 00:28:57,318 so counter to their own good," right? 838 00:28:57,318 --> 00:28:59,320 As a country, as a nation. 839 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,074 And I, at the time, again, I knew nothing about nuclear. 840 00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:04,659 I didn't know the difference between fission and fusion, 841 00:29:04,659 --> 00:29:05,535 honestly, at the time. 842 00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:06,619 I certainly didn't know 843 00:29:06,619 --> 00:29:09,706 that it was a pretty big part of our grid and other things. 844 00:29:09,706 --> 00:29:10,665 But it just was one of those 845 00:29:10,665 --> 00:29:12,250 like completely under-celebrated, 846 00:29:12,250 --> 00:29:14,836 under-championed by anyone. 847 00:29:14,836 --> 00:29:16,004 The climate tech... 848 00:29:16,004 --> 00:29:18,047 Climate people really weren't into it either. 849 00:29:18,047 --> 00:29:20,258 And so it just kind of got me curious about it 850 00:29:20,258 --> 00:29:21,843 and then just started reading more. 851 00:29:21,843 --> 00:29:24,220 Wrote a piece that I posted on Twitter 852 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:28,016 and it's actually how I met Jordan, who's my co-founder, 853 00:29:28,016 --> 00:29:29,476 and he's the one who actually had the vision 854 00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,395 for micro-reactors for the military. 855 00:29:32,395 --> 00:29:34,522 And I just said, "What a great beachhead". Like again, 856 00:29:34,522 --> 00:29:37,901 premium power, great thesis to go to market with, 857 00:29:37,901 --> 00:29:40,278 and just really got into the topic. 858 00:29:40,278 --> 00:29:42,405 How did you arrive at that as a beachhead? 859 00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:43,740 I think, you know, you just say like, 860 00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:46,534 where can you go that you don't have to compete 861 00:29:46,534 --> 00:29:49,954 on that LCOE level against the cheap solar panels. 862 00:29:49,954 --> 00:29:52,540 Where do you go where there's a real need? 863 00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:55,043 And mission assurance 864 00:29:55,043 --> 00:29:57,003 for something critical to the military. 865 00:29:57,003 --> 00:29:58,713 Like, they will pay for that. 866 00:29:58,713 --> 00:30:00,673 This is also an area where like they 867 00:30:00,673 --> 00:30:02,675 were obviously behind the Manhattan Project. 868 00:30:02,675 --> 00:30:05,929 They're here to help develop new technologies. 869 00:30:05,929 --> 00:30:07,639 And so what a great partner to have 870 00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:09,557 when trying to do something like this. 871 00:30:09,557 --> 00:30:11,267 Has DARPA played with this stuff at all? 872 00:30:11,267 --> 00:30:13,102 Or has it come from... It sounds like you're working 873 00:30:13,102 --> 00:30:14,813 with the main branches of the military. 874 00:30:14,813 --> 00:30:17,190 Yeah, you know, we are not working with DARPA 875 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:19,943 mostly because it's actually not as technically risky 876 00:30:19,943 --> 00:30:21,820 as you might even think. 877 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:23,696 They prefer things further at the risk curve. 878 00:30:23,696 --> 00:30:24,572 Exactly. 879 00:30:24,572 --> 00:30:26,366 We actually... In a funny way, 880 00:30:26,366 --> 00:30:29,077 it's not even really a tech problem. 881 00:30:29,077 --> 00:30:31,371 You know, I mean it's hard to build these things, 882 00:30:31,371 --> 00:30:32,497 but it's not brand new. 883 00:30:32,497 --> 00:30:33,331 But someone just needs to know how to— 884 00:30:33,331 --> 00:30:35,124 It's not novel in that way. 885 00:30:35,124 --> 00:30:36,668 That's interesting. 886 00:30:36,668 --> 00:30:38,086 What lessons have you brought 887 00:30:38,086 --> 00:30:40,922 from your prior experience at SpaceX, at Opendoor 888 00:30:40,922 --> 00:30:42,674 to building Antares? 889 00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:46,427 You know, one of the things I really took away from SpaceX 890 00:30:46,427 --> 00:30:48,847 was just like really getting into it. 891 00:30:48,847 --> 00:30:51,683 It's a very confrontational culture 892 00:30:51,683 --> 00:30:55,520 and it's not afraid to say like, "Screw your next meeting. 893 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,814 We need to keep talking about this." 894 00:30:57,814 --> 00:30:58,857 And I love that. 895 00:30:58,857 --> 00:31:00,650 Like, I want to bring that energy everywhere I go. 896 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:04,320 It's like, if you are unsure about something, 897 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,239 if you're questioning something, 898 00:31:06,239 --> 00:31:09,325 you should probably stop and dig into it. 899 00:31:09,325 --> 00:31:11,327 We had this thing called the "Five Whys," 900 00:31:11,327 --> 00:31:12,704 I don't know if you ever use— 901 00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:14,539 In general, yeah. It's like a... 902 00:31:14,539 --> 00:31:17,375 one of these Silicon Valley little quips. 903 00:31:17,375 --> 00:31:19,127 But it's like that on steroids. 904 00:31:19,127 --> 00:31:24,132 And I think the pausing to probe super deeply, 905 00:31:24,966 --> 00:31:28,344 question things, like really hash things out 906 00:31:28,344 --> 00:31:30,346 was a big takeaway I learned. 907 00:31:30,346 --> 00:31:32,974 Like, wow, that's really effective 908 00:31:32,974 --> 00:31:34,392 at getting to the right answer, 909 00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:35,602 at making a decision, 910 00:31:35,602 --> 00:31:37,478 at changing course when you need to. 911 00:31:37,478 --> 00:31:40,231 And so I've tried to bring some of that to Antares. 912 00:31:40,231 --> 00:31:43,276 You know, investors are hot and cold on hard tech 913 00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:44,736 depending on when you're raising money 914 00:31:44,736 --> 00:31:46,321 and everything like this. 915 00:31:46,321 --> 00:31:50,658 Presumably there's a J-curve 916 00:31:50,658 --> 00:31:52,577 in investing in Antares 917 00:31:52,577 --> 00:31:55,079 where there's definitely some R&D 918 00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,790 before you eventually start paying it back with revenues. 919 00:31:57,790 --> 00:32:00,043 How is the experience of raising money for this? 920 00:32:00,043 --> 00:32:01,753 It's going to get harder. 921 00:32:01,753 --> 00:32:03,254 I think it hasn't been hard to date 922 00:32:03,254 --> 00:32:05,256 only because there is interest 923 00:32:05,256 --> 00:32:06,799 and excitement around nuclear. 924 00:32:08,509 --> 00:32:11,346 It's also just fewer dollars in the beginning. 925 00:32:11,346 --> 00:32:14,265 You're kind of like honeymoon phase of all of that. 926 00:32:14,265 --> 00:32:15,141 I think it will get harder. 927 00:32:15,141 --> 00:32:19,604 I think now the time is ticking. It's like, 928 00:32:19,604 --> 00:32:21,648 "Okay, let's see your next technical milestones." 929 00:32:21,648 --> 00:32:23,316 This criticality test, 930 00:32:23,316 --> 00:32:25,777 obviously the full reactor end of 2027. 931 00:32:26,611 --> 00:32:28,363 I think it will be challenging. 932 00:32:28,363 --> 00:32:30,823 And there are several reactor companies out there, 933 00:32:30,823 --> 00:32:32,659 so it's a bit of a race. 934 00:32:32,659 --> 00:32:33,493 I think it's going to be fun. 935 00:32:33,493 --> 00:32:35,912 I mean, I wonder what Polymarket would have to say. 936 00:32:35,912 --> 00:32:37,705 Several reactor companies out there, 937 00:32:37,705 --> 00:32:39,999 even at the end of the market that you guys are going after? 938 00:32:39,999 --> 00:32:42,418 Yeah, everyone has their different niche, right? 939 00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:44,754 I think our niche is again, the smallest, 940 00:32:44,754 --> 00:32:46,506 the most DOD-oriented. 941 00:32:46,506 --> 00:32:50,385 There's a lot of micro-reactor companies or SMR. 942 00:32:50,385 --> 00:32:51,594 And I'm doing this because it's like, 943 00:32:51,594 --> 00:32:52,804 "Are they SMR, micro-reactors?" 944 00:32:52,804 --> 00:32:55,098 Anyway, that are going after data centers 945 00:32:55,098 --> 00:32:57,642 and the data center build-out, which is an amazing market. 946 00:32:57,642 --> 00:32:58,518 I mean, amazing. 947 00:32:58,518 --> 00:33:00,895 I think people will pay a lot more, again, 948 00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:02,480 going back to the premium power point, 949 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,857 they will pay more for power for this. 950 00:33:04,857 --> 00:33:07,110 Not exactly our target market. 951 00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:10,071 Right, so your niche in the market, 952 00:33:10,071 --> 00:33:13,700 it seems like you guys have selected a part of the market 953 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:15,618 where maybe there's less competition. 954 00:33:15,618 --> 00:33:16,869 There's still some people going after 955 00:33:16,869 --> 00:33:18,204 the military applications. 956 00:33:18,204 --> 00:33:19,038 There always are. 957 00:33:19,038 --> 00:33:19,872 I mean, if you have a good idea, 958 00:33:19,872 --> 00:33:21,582 there's going to be a few people working on it. 959 00:33:21,582 --> 00:33:23,418 How capital-intensive is it going to be 960 00:33:23,418 --> 00:33:24,919 to get your product to market? 961 00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:27,213 In the hundreds of millions. 962 00:33:27,213 --> 00:33:28,631 Okay. Yep. 963 00:33:28,631 --> 00:33:30,508 I think what we... 964 00:33:30,508 --> 00:33:32,176 And it depends on what you mean by "to market," right? 965 00:33:32,176 --> 00:33:33,469 So I think our big milestones, 966 00:33:33,469 --> 00:33:34,846 like can you build a reactor, prove it, 967 00:33:34,846 --> 00:33:36,764 turn it on, it's producing power. 968 00:33:36,764 --> 00:33:39,809 Then I think you can think about interesting layers 969 00:33:39,809 --> 00:33:43,271 of capital in terms of pre-orders for your reactor. 970 00:33:43,271 --> 00:33:44,731 That's going to be my next question. 971 00:33:44,731 --> 00:33:46,024 When does the money arrive? 972 00:33:46,024 --> 00:33:48,484 Yeah, exactly. Bigger government grants. 973 00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,279 So we're kind of still in the hundreds of thousands, 974 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,781 single-digit millions of dollars of grants 975 00:33:53,781 --> 00:33:55,408 that we are getting right now. 976 00:33:55,408 --> 00:33:57,827 But you're moving into the tens of millions 977 00:33:57,827 --> 00:33:58,953 of dollars R&D grants. 978 00:33:58,953 --> 00:34:00,913 And then you want to eventually move into that 979 00:34:00,913 --> 00:34:03,041 program-of-record, real dollars. 980 00:34:03,041 --> 00:34:05,668 There's a really interesting program right now 981 00:34:05,668 --> 00:34:08,671 that the Army has put out called the Janus program. 982 00:34:08,671 --> 00:34:11,382 Are you familiar with the COTS program that SpaceX used 983 00:34:11,382 --> 00:34:13,468 to bring, to develop their first reactor? 984 00:34:13,468 --> 00:34:14,302 Not by name, but I'm familiar with— 985 00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:15,136 Commercial Orbital Transport System. 986 00:34:16,721 --> 00:34:17,805 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with the broad— 987 00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:19,515 So it was the innovation basically 988 00:34:19,515 --> 00:34:21,726 to say like, let's try something that's not cost-plus 989 00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:25,605 and let's actually do something that's milestone-based 990 00:34:25,605 --> 00:34:28,191 and you know, "Well, basically we'll cut you 991 00:34:28,191 --> 00:34:30,943 if you don't hit the milestone and it's fixed contract. 992 00:34:30,943 --> 00:34:32,612 We're not going to pay you for whatever." 993 00:34:32,612 --> 00:34:35,490 So anyway, the Army has taken that model a bit 994 00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:38,117 and I think used that as inspiration for this Janus program 995 00:34:38,117 --> 00:34:40,286 where they're saying, "We're going to fund up to 996 00:34:40,286 --> 00:34:42,914 three to five companies to build their first prototype 997 00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:45,333 alongside us, kind of at a base. 998 00:34:45,333 --> 00:34:48,169 And then we will choose a winner 999 00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,421 and we want to build 5 to 10 reactors, 1000 00:34:50,421 --> 00:34:52,006 if not more on bases." 1001 00:34:52,006 --> 00:34:54,801 And so the demand signal now is hot. 1002 00:34:54,801 --> 00:34:57,762 And so this is going to be great for our future fundraising, 1003 00:34:57,762 --> 00:34:59,097 for the industry in general. 1004 00:34:59,097 --> 00:35:00,807 It's like very, very good demand. 1005 00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:03,017 A lot of incumbents build on military, 1006 00:35:03,017 --> 00:35:04,852 US defense contracting. 1007 00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:08,314 What is your experience as someone who's 1008 00:35:08,314 --> 00:35:10,858 attempting to sell to the military? 1009 00:35:10,858 --> 00:35:14,028 I mean, people are actually kind of well aware 1010 00:35:14,028 --> 00:35:16,239 that this cost-plus model is not great. 1011 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,491 The question is like, well, what are the alternatives? 1012 00:35:18,491 --> 00:35:19,325 Who's going to go do it? 1013 00:35:19,325 --> 00:35:21,494 Anduril has been an amazing example of that. 1014 00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:24,372 So I think a lot of us in hard tech really look to them as 1015 00:35:24,372 --> 00:35:26,499 what we try to emulate. 1016 00:35:26,499 --> 00:35:28,334 Every branch of the military 1017 00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:32,547 has these innovative arms that tell you like, 1018 00:35:32,547 --> 00:35:34,006 "Hey, we want to hear about your ideas." 1019 00:35:34,006 --> 00:35:36,134 And they do actually, you can go talk to them. 1020 00:35:36,134 --> 00:35:37,969 They're giving out grants for things like... 1021 00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:40,888 I do think everyone wants the innovation. 1022 00:35:40,888 --> 00:35:42,014 They are, you know, 1023 00:35:42,014 --> 00:35:44,267 and in this day and age of information everywhere, 1024 00:35:44,267 --> 00:35:45,810 you can learn a lot quickly. 1025 00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:47,603 They do want to work with startups. 1026 00:35:47,603 --> 00:35:49,063 I think we'll only see more of it, 1027 00:35:49,063 --> 00:35:51,315 but you have things like the government shutdown 1028 00:35:51,315 --> 00:35:53,568 and the pace of government is slow. 1029 00:35:53,568 --> 00:35:57,238 So you've got to just be able 1030 00:35:57,238 --> 00:35:59,448 to keep pushing those timelines, again, 1031 00:35:59,448 --> 00:36:01,492 while not running out of money, to be able 1032 00:36:01,492 --> 00:36:03,494 to make it through that valley of death. 1033 00:36:03,494 --> 00:36:07,498 What's been harder than you expected building Antares? 1034 00:36:07,498 --> 00:36:09,250 Because presumably you expected it broadly to be hard. 1035 00:36:09,250 --> 00:36:11,502 You expected there to be a lot of technical risk. 1036 00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:14,547 Capital intensity. Yeah, harder than expected. 1037 00:36:14,547 --> 00:36:16,090 Oh. 1038 00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:17,466 There's a couple things. 1039 00:36:17,466 --> 00:36:20,761 I mean, I think, gosh... 1040 00:36:20,761 --> 00:36:22,430 Recruiting is always hard. 1041 00:36:22,430 --> 00:36:25,224 You're up against the SpaceXs of the world 1042 00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:27,351 that have just a lot more credibility, right? 1043 00:36:27,351 --> 00:36:29,645 When you're the no-name person at the very beginning, 1044 00:36:29,645 --> 00:36:30,563 it can be hard. 1045 00:36:31,856 --> 00:36:35,067 I think there's a lot of complexity, 1046 00:36:35,067 --> 00:36:36,444 and even though I said 1047 00:36:36,444 --> 00:36:37,904 we're making so much progress in regulation, 1048 00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:39,906 there's still red tape everywhere. 1049 00:36:39,906 --> 00:36:42,325 Things cost more than they probably should. 1050 00:36:42,325 --> 00:36:45,494 You know, we spend a lot of money paying the national labs 1051 00:36:45,494 --> 00:36:47,788 to do things like clear out a pit 1052 00:36:47,788 --> 00:36:49,248 so that we can test our reactor. 1053 00:36:49,248 --> 00:36:50,541 And it's like, we're paying for that. 1054 00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:51,334 And they're like, "You know, 1055 00:36:51,334 --> 00:36:53,836 here's hundreds of thousand dollars. Here's the bill." 1056 00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:55,963 So there's stuff that you're like, "Gosh, 1057 00:36:55,963 --> 00:36:58,966 there's really a lot of expense everywhere 1058 00:36:58,966 --> 00:37:00,343 and it just slows things down." 1059 00:37:00,343 --> 00:37:03,304 And so I guess we were somewhat ready for that. 1060 00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:06,015 But some of this stuff just seems silly 1061 00:37:06,015 --> 00:37:08,059 and when you're building in software, 1062 00:37:08,059 --> 00:37:09,477 you just don't have to worry about it. 1063 00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:11,020 You just sit there, code, and do your thing 1064 00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:12,855 and go right to market. 1065 00:37:12,855 --> 00:37:15,483 When you have to work with the real world, you have to, 1066 00:37:15,483 --> 00:37:17,735 you know, you have to play their games a little bit 1067 00:37:17,735 --> 00:37:21,030 and you have to follow the process in some ways. 1068 00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:23,324 And there's not always a way around it. 1069 00:37:23,324 --> 00:37:24,784 Sometimes it's just through. 1070 00:37:24,784 --> 00:37:26,327 You said there's still a lot of red tape 1071 00:37:26,327 --> 00:37:28,037 despite the fact that 1072 00:37:28,037 --> 00:37:29,705 there's been the first Biden-era 1073 00:37:29,705 --> 00:37:31,374 and then Trump-era improvements. 1074 00:37:31,374 --> 00:37:35,503 If you were in charge, I know energies are... 1075 00:37:35,503 --> 00:37:36,754 Or you know, we'll give you a role 1076 00:37:36,754 --> 00:37:40,800 with no powers across all these departments. 1077 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:41,759 What would you change? 1078 00:37:41,759 --> 00:37:43,135 What do you think the specific improvements 1079 00:37:43,135 --> 00:37:44,011 we could make are? 1080 00:37:44,011 --> 00:37:47,139 If I were fully in charge of energy, 1081 00:37:47,139 --> 00:37:50,601 I would love to see the US government be a buyer. 1082 00:37:50,601 --> 00:37:53,896 I think that is... Just like actually the NASA was a buyer 1083 00:37:53,896 --> 00:37:58,192 for SpaceX's eventual launch product. 1084 00:37:58,192 --> 00:38:01,279 I think having the US government be a customer 1085 00:38:01,279 --> 00:38:02,780 for nuclear would be great. 1086 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:04,532 And so we have this a little bit with the DOD. 1087 00:38:04,532 --> 00:38:05,992 It was a very interesting announcement 1088 00:38:05,992 --> 00:38:07,910 that just came out a week or two ago 1089 00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:09,829 that doesn't have a ton of detail, 1090 00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:11,747 but it's starting in this direction. 1091 00:38:11,747 --> 00:38:13,833 I think it's very positive. 1092 00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:16,377 I'm a small government person, so I don't say this lightly, 1093 00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:17,837 but I do think there are certain things 1094 00:38:17,837 --> 00:38:19,755 when it's national security related 1095 00:38:19,755 --> 00:38:20,923 and things like energy resilience. 1096 00:38:20,923 --> 00:38:23,384 There should be public-private partnership. 1097 00:38:23,384 --> 00:38:25,428 But anyway, the announcement is that the US government 1098 00:38:25,428 --> 00:38:27,221 now wants to spend $80 billion 1099 00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:31,183 on nuclear development alongside Westinghouse. 1100 00:38:31,183 --> 00:38:33,644 So they've basically chosen the technology. 1101 00:38:33,644 --> 00:38:35,646 And I think that's actually a good thing 1102 00:38:35,646 --> 00:38:37,315 because you don't want to... 1103 00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:39,317 You want to be able to build one thing 1104 00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:40,401 and then repeatedly build it 1105 00:38:40,401 --> 00:38:43,487 so that you're not reinventing the wheel every time. 1106 00:38:43,487 --> 00:38:46,198 You actually have economies of scale, 1107 00:38:46,198 --> 00:38:49,243 like the learning curve that you go down from doing that. 1108 00:38:49,243 --> 00:38:50,661 So I'm excited about that news. 1109 00:38:50,661 --> 00:38:53,831 I think that's the type of policy I'd want to see more of. 1110 00:38:53,831 --> 00:38:56,083 And, you know, we'll see how it goes. 1111 00:38:56,083 --> 00:39:00,463 I mean, this is the biggest ever commercial nuclear 1112 00:39:00,463 --> 00:39:02,506 public-private partnership we've seen. 1113 00:39:02,506 --> 00:39:05,134 And sorry, specifically they're buying from Westinghouse. 1114 00:39:05,134 --> 00:39:06,969 Just a large amount of nuclear power? 1115 00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:08,721 Well, it's a combination. 1116 00:39:08,721 --> 00:39:09,555 So this is where, 1117 00:39:09,555 --> 00:39:10,681 I mean, the details are a little fuzzy 1118 00:39:10,681 --> 00:39:12,767 but they've announced 80 billion. 1119 00:39:12,767 --> 00:39:15,436 They've announced Westinghouse as the partner of choice. 1120 00:39:15,436 --> 00:39:16,479 Not all those dollars are going 1121 00:39:16,479 --> 00:39:17,355 right to Westinghouse. 1122 00:39:17,355 --> 00:39:19,815 And that's a company that makes just the reactor itself. 1123 00:39:19,815 --> 00:39:22,818 So there's money that you would spend on a plant 1124 00:39:22,818 --> 00:39:26,822 or licensing fees or whatever else that surrounds that. 1125 00:39:26,822 --> 00:39:28,240 But I think it's really positive. 1126 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:30,284 I think what it does is it's a catalyst 1127 00:39:30,284 --> 00:39:31,285 for the whole industry, right? 1128 00:39:31,285 --> 00:39:33,204 Like supply chain, workforce. 1129 00:39:33,204 --> 00:39:34,997 People are now paying attention like, 1130 00:39:34,997 --> 00:39:37,750 "Oh, there's real dollars to be made here." 1131 00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:42,046 There's a huge trillion-dollar asset under management 1132 00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:44,465 company called Brookfield Asset Management. 1133 00:39:44,465 --> 00:39:47,843 And they've actually just gotten in the game as well 1134 00:39:47,843 --> 00:39:48,886 in the last couple weeks. 1135 00:39:48,886 --> 00:39:51,555 I'm sure there was talk, right? 1136 00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:53,391 To take the V.C. Summer plant 1137 00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:55,142 that never got completed in South Carolina 1138 00:39:55,142 --> 00:39:56,644 and actually finish it. 1139 00:39:56,644 --> 00:39:58,771 And so again, they now have some nice tailwinds 1140 00:39:58,771 --> 00:40:01,774 with those new production subsidies. 1141 00:40:01,774 --> 00:40:04,610 They are partnering with the local utility to... 1142 00:40:04,610 --> 00:40:08,239 And again, a local utility doesn't have the risk appetite 1143 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:09,907 to do this themselves, right? 1144 00:40:09,907 --> 00:40:11,617 Or the balance sheet to do this themselves. 1145 00:40:11,617 --> 00:40:13,285 And so there's some really nice 1146 00:40:13,285 --> 00:40:14,995 market signal you get 1147 00:40:14,995 --> 00:40:15,830 when the government's saying, 1148 00:40:15,830 --> 00:40:19,250 "We're going to spend $80 billion on this." 1149 00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:20,584 But I think 1150 00:40:20,584 --> 00:40:22,837 it gets the rest of the industry moving. 1151 00:40:22,837 --> 00:40:27,675 As you guys were exploring and developing the early stages 1152 00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:29,552 of your business plan, 1153 00:40:29,552 --> 00:40:34,557 did you consider for a product that is as tightly regulated 1154 00:40:34,557 --> 00:40:37,184 as this, did you consider doing any jurisdiction shopping 1155 00:40:37,184 --> 00:40:40,187 where you develop a product that you sell in Singapore 1156 00:40:40,187 --> 00:40:42,648 or the UAE or Prospera or 1157 00:40:42,648 --> 00:40:44,942 some more favorable jurisdiction? 1158 00:40:44,942 --> 00:40:46,360 You know, we really didn't. 1159 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,864 It felt like there was enough signal 1160 00:40:49,864 --> 00:40:52,116 that we would be able to 1161 00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:54,910 get through regulatory and see some positive change. 1162 00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:57,705 There was enough basically demand signal within the US, 1163 00:40:57,705 --> 00:40:59,331 and it's... I don't know, 1164 00:40:59,331 --> 00:41:01,709 we take pride in also building for our country, right? 1165 00:41:01,709 --> 00:41:04,336 And it feels good to be developing something 1166 00:41:04,336 --> 00:41:06,755 for our military and our allies. 1167 00:41:06,755 --> 00:41:08,340 So we didn't really shop it around too much. 1168 00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:09,508 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1169 00:41:09,508 --> 00:41:11,510 And I guess the US military is a large buyer, in this case. 1170 00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:12,553 Very large buyer. 1171 00:41:12,553 --> 00:41:14,555 The largest buyer of non-commodity energy, 1172 00:41:14,555 --> 00:41:15,764 if not all energy. 1173 00:41:15,764 --> 00:41:19,018 How soon afterwards will you go to, like, 1174 00:41:19,018 --> 00:41:24,023 I presume you want to do civilian premium power use cases, 1175 00:41:25,024 --> 00:41:27,318 like you're saying an oil rig 1176 00:41:27,318 --> 00:41:29,695 seems like the one that, 1177 00:41:29,695 --> 00:41:32,072 ironically that... It would be hard to get gas, 1178 00:41:32,072 --> 00:41:35,034 it would be hard to get refined 1179 00:41:35,034 --> 00:41:37,203 diesel or gasoline to an oil rig. 1180 00:41:37,203 --> 00:41:38,746 Does that come right afterwards 1181 00:41:38,746 --> 00:41:40,748 or is that such a different ball of wax 1182 00:41:40,748 --> 00:41:41,624 from a regulatory point of view 1183 00:41:41,624 --> 00:41:43,667 that maybe it's like 10 years later? 1184 00:41:43,667 --> 00:41:46,003 I think it's, you know, you're developing concurrently. 1185 00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:48,297 We are talking with oil and gas already. 1186 00:41:48,297 --> 00:41:49,381 Just understanding them, right? 1187 00:41:49,381 --> 00:41:50,591 "What do you need? 1188 00:41:50,591 --> 00:41:53,385 What do you think you'd pay?" That sort of thing. 1189 00:41:53,385 --> 00:41:56,013 So I would say it fast follows, right? 1190 00:41:56,013 --> 00:41:57,223 A few years later. 1191 00:41:57,223 --> 00:41:59,808 I think it's going to be such a nice proving ground 1192 00:41:59,808 --> 00:42:03,103 if we can make it through and test on a military base, 1193 00:42:03,103 --> 00:42:04,980 for example, and get a first reactor live 1194 00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:06,690 and get some revenue from that, 1195 00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:09,568 then I think it's like open the aperture pretty broadly 1196 00:42:09,568 --> 00:42:10,986 for what else is out there. 1197 00:42:10,986 --> 00:42:15,991 Does this movement towards re-onshoring manufacturing 1198 00:42:16,116 --> 00:42:20,955 in the US and various blockers people talk about to that 1199 00:42:20,955 --> 00:42:24,041 between supply chain is difficult in your... 1200 00:42:24,041 --> 00:42:25,668 You've talked about in the fuel context, 1201 00:42:25,668 --> 00:42:27,670 but also supply chain for manufacturing, 1202 00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:30,172 talent and the roles that people go into 1203 00:42:30,172 --> 00:42:32,007 and finding talent in specific areas. 1204 00:42:32,007 --> 00:42:34,593 I'm just curious. What has your experience been 1205 00:42:34,593 --> 00:42:37,888 of building a hard tech company in the US? 1206 00:42:37,888 --> 00:42:40,266 Supply chain is... Yeah, 1207 00:42:40,266 --> 00:42:42,977 the bottlenecks. Supply chain is challenging 1208 00:42:42,977 --> 00:42:45,312 when you need to work with nuclear-grade material 1209 00:42:45,312 --> 00:42:48,107 and no nuclear plants have really been built. 1210 00:42:48,107 --> 00:42:51,735 It makes for a very limited number of suppliers. 1211 00:42:51,735 --> 00:42:53,821 Which means costs are higher. 1212 00:42:53,821 --> 00:42:55,114 You know, options are just fewer. 1213 00:42:55,114 --> 00:42:56,657 So like, if they're not responding to your email, 1214 00:42:56,657 --> 00:42:57,616 well what are you going to do? 1215 00:42:57,616 --> 00:42:58,826 You know, there's only one other option. 1216 00:42:58,826 --> 00:43:00,452 And like, I don't know, they're busy or whatever. 1217 00:43:00,452 --> 00:43:03,163 So those dynamics are really challenging. 1218 00:43:03,163 --> 00:43:04,873 The graphite that I brought here is actually 1219 00:43:04,873 --> 00:43:06,375 from a Japanese company, right? 1220 00:43:06,375 --> 00:43:08,961 No one's even processing that stuff in the US. 1221 00:43:08,961 --> 00:43:10,129 And so you're kind of, 1222 00:43:10,129 --> 00:43:11,505 you're literally going all over the world 1223 00:43:11,505 --> 00:43:12,339 for these supplies. 1224 00:43:12,339 --> 00:43:13,382 So that's challenging. 1225 00:43:13,382 --> 00:43:15,009 You know, talent is challenging in the sense 1226 00:43:15,009 --> 00:43:17,177 that there are so many options 1227 00:43:17,177 --> 00:43:20,139 for hard tech in the LA region, right? 1228 00:43:20,139 --> 00:43:23,183 So you need to have a compelling mission, 1229 00:43:23,183 --> 00:43:24,727 but nuclear is compelling. 1230 00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:28,480 So it's been challenging, but not in some ways. 1231 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,858 If you want to work at SpaceX and you love space stuff 1232 00:43:30,858 --> 00:43:33,277 and you want to be at that name brand place, 1233 00:43:33,277 --> 00:43:34,612 we've lost you. 1234 00:43:34,612 --> 00:43:36,280 But if you're interested in nuclear 1235 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,240 and being able to build from the very beginning, 1236 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,284 that is a compelling piece. 1237 00:43:40,284 --> 00:43:42,161 Yes. It's the Shackleton pitch, you know of— 1238 00:43:42,161 --> 00:43:43,662 Yeah, totally. 1239 00:43:43,662 --> 00:43:45,164 High risk of failure. Totally. 1240 00:43:45,164 --> 00:43:46,957 And that's the pitch that you're making. 1241 00:43:46,957 --> 00:43:49,335 Yep. Yeah, I like that. 1242 00:43:49,335 --> 00:43:52,212 What trends in nuclear should we be excited about right now? 1243 00:43:52,212 --> 00:43:55,090 So the trend I'm excited about is bringing back online 1244 00:43:55,090 --> 00:43:57,509 these recently shuttered plants 1245 00:43:57,509 --> 00:44:01,013 because they don't take too much money to bring back online. 1246 00:44:01,013 --> 00:44:04,475 And we've seen a couple big power purchase agreements 1247 00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:08,062 where you have Google partnered with NextEra 1248 00:44:08,062 --> 00:44:11,148 or the Iowa-based utility to bring on Dwayne Arnold, 1249 00:44:11,148 --> 00:44:13,067 which was shut down about five years ago. 1250 00:44:13,067 --> 00:44:15,194 And then you have actually Three Mile Island, 1251 00:44:15,194 --> 00:44:18,530 the site of the infamous accident is also— 1252 00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:20,407 Almost accident. Well, it was an accident 1253 00:44:20,407 --> 00:44:22,618 but it was not really a big deal. 1254 00:44:22,618 --> 00:44:24,036 Like this much radiation came out. 1255 00:44:24,036 --> 00:44:26,455 It was like this amount of a chest x-ray. 1256 00:44:26,455 --> 00:44:29,750 Yes, completely overblown "accident". 1257 00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:31,835 That's being brought back online. 1258 00:44:31,835 --> 00:44:36,256 Partnership between Microsoft and Constellation, I believe. 1259 00:44:36,256 --> 00:44:37,299 So that's kind of fun. 1260 00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:38,342 I mean, you're seeing like, 1261 00:44:38,342 --> 00:44:40,302 let's go take these assets that are just sitting there 1262 00:44:40,302 --> 00:44:42,638 that shouldn't have been turned off. 1263 00:44:42,638 --> 00:44:44,098 Bring them back online, bring them back to life. 1264 00:44:44,098 --> 00:44:45,349 Tons of power coming out of them. 1265 00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:47,101 And we need it yesterday, right? 1266 00:44:47,101 --> 00:44:48,560 Yeah, I mean it's so striking 1267 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,270 the big trend in the US right now, 1268 00:44:50,270 --> 00:44:55,234 being that grid demand was flat for the longest time. 1269 00:44:55,317 --> 00:44:57,653 Like we were completely not— Exactly. 1270 00:44:57,653 --> 00:45:01,407 Not adding power generation nor adding power transmission. 1271 00:45:01,407 --> 00:45:04,201 And now because of data centers, 1272 00:45:04,201 --> 00:45:06,995 essentially, we have this enormous boom 1273 00:45:06,995 --> 00:45:09,581 that is just leading to things 1274 00:45:09,581 --> 00:45:11,542 that maybe previously would've been competitive. 1275 00:45:11,542 --> 00:45:13,460 People can't get enough of anything, right? 1276 00:45:13,460 --> 00:45:15,045 You know, people can't get enough of nuclear, 1277 00:45:15,045 --> 00:45:16,130 they can't get enough of solar, 1278 00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:18,090 they can't get enough of natural gas. 1279 00:45:18,090 --> 00:45:20,134 And just everything is backlogged. 1280 00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:21,051 It's really interesting. 1281 00:45:21,051 --> 00:45:22,845 Even the natural gas turbines are backlogged. 1282 00:45:22,845 --> 00:45:25,180 Totally, yeah. I mean, multiple years. 1283 00:45:25,180 --> 00:45:26,265 Across all the manufacturers. 1284 00:45:26,265 --> 00:45:27,641 You know, it is hard when 1285 00:45:27,641 --> 00:45:28,600 something like this 1286 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,352 goes into one of these inflection points, 1287 00:45:30,352 --> 00:45:31,186 and to your point, 1288 00:45:31,186 --> 00:45:33,063 it was less than 1% year-over-year growth 1289 00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:34,732 for 20-plus years. 1290 00:45:34,732 --> 00:45:36,734 And now it's like people are estimating 1291 00:45:36,734 --> 00:45:38,193 5% annual growth next year. 1292 00:45:38,193 --> 00:45:39,319 Like, oh my gosh. 1293 00:45:39,319 --> 00:45:40,154 Last question. 1294 00:45:40,154 --> 00:45:42,322 What kind of culture do you want to build at Antares? 1295 00:45:42,322 --> 00:45:43,157 Hmm. 1296 00:45:44,491 --> 00:45:46,910 Well, I think it's certainly one of excellence, 1297 00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:49,329 and I think that means 1298 00:45:49,329 --> 00:45:50,956 delivering quality product. 1299 00:45:52,166 --> 00:45:53,041 How you get there... 1300 00:45:53,041 --> 00:45:54,209 I mean, there's a lot of ways to get there. 1301 00:45:54,209 --> 00:45:56,086 You can have the combative SpaceX culture. 1302 00:45:56,086 --> 00:45:58,380 You can have a less combative, maybe more, 1303 00:45:58,380 --> 00:45:59,381 I don't know, writing culture. 1304 00:45:59,381 --> 00:46:01,842 They don't write that much stuff down in SpaceX. 1305 00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:04,344 To me that matters less. 1306 00:46:04,344 --> 00:46:07,431 Although I tend to be one for a working environment 1307 00:46:07,431 --> 00:46:12,144 that is energized, positive preferably. 1308 00:46:13,228 --> 00:46:15,981 But I think, ultimately, I would be proud 1309 00:46:15,981 --> 00:46:18,942 to be delivering on an excellent product 1310 00:46:18,942 --> 00:46:20,944 that can be delivered to market soon, right? 1311 00:46:20,944 --> 00:46:22,154 And we can all go use. 1312 00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:22,988 But, okay. 1313 00:46:22,988 --> 00:46:25,783 So you want the kinda results-oriented culture. 1314 00:46:25,783 --> 00:46:28,619 Results speak for themselves in a lot of ways, yeah. 1315 00:46:28,619 --> 00:46:29,787 Julia, thank you. 1316 00:46:29,787 --> 00:46:30,788 Thanks. Thanks for having me.